Fair and Balanced?

[AzDon]

Fahrenheit 911 is Fair and Balanced
by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman / Common Dreams
We've come to expect poisonous and unbalanced attacks from the paid far right propagandists denouncing Michael Moore's documentary "Fahrenheit 911." But more disturbing are the scolds from tepid moderate mainstream journalists who often fail to read their own newspapers. New York Times columnist Nicholas D. Kristof attacks the film because "Moore hints that the real reason Bush invaded Afghanistan was to give his cronies a chance to profit by building an oil pipeline there." Kristof attacks Moore for even raising this issue,. But he conveniently ignores volumes of information readily available to back up Moore's claim.
Perhaps Kristof, like President Bush, refuses to read. At least that would explain why he missed the raging international debate surrounding the Bush administration's well-documented, then-secret oil negotiations with the Taliban in the summer of 2001.
The book FORBIDDEN TRUTH: U.S.-TALIBAN SECRET OIL DIPLOMACY AND THE FAILED HUNT FOR BIN LADEN was an international bestseller. Written by French Intelligence experts Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquié, the book asserts that the Bush administration threatened the Taliban with the now- infamous words: "Either you accept our carpet of gold or we'll carpet you with bombs." The threat was made about a month before the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Kristof and his ilk prefer the simple-minded version offered by President Bush: the Taliban and Al Qaeda hate our freedom and liberty. That the world's largest military power in search of new oil supplies for the 21st century would threaten carpet bombing is something the mainstream corporate media simply refuses to consider. Kristof also ignores the fact that the U.S. government installed Unocal advisor Harmid Karzai as the President of Afghanistan and provided him U.S. Special Forces as his praetorian guard. Moore mentions this in the film, but Kristof leaves it out of his column, saying the "Administration's huge errors aren't because of deceit." But that statement itself is very deceitful.
Kristof also fails to acknowledge National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski's THE GRAND CHESSBOARD. Brzezinski calmly outlines a thesis that U.S. domination of the globe in the 21st century depends on its control of Central Asian oilfields. He also says the American public would not back an attack unless there was a terrorist attack that galvanized public opinion to seize the foreign oil.
Tom Teepen, syndicated columnist for the Cox New Service suggests that "Fahrenheit 911 is a polemic, not a documentary." Teepen says Moore "weaves conspiracy theories in part by conveniently leaving out key information." Teepen belongs to that most despicable class of columnists known as "coincidence theorists." He also doesn't understand the true meaning of "polemic."
F9/11 opens with the 2000 election debacle in Florida. Moore could have recited from the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, which documented that 54% of the rejected ballots in Florida were cast by black voters and 93% of African-Americans voted for Gore nationwide. The government report singled out George's brother Governor Jeb Bush, and the Bush brothers' close friend and Republican ally, Katherine Harris, for blame. Moore could have presented investigative journalist Gregory Palast's reports for the BBC documenting that at least 58,000 eligible voters in Florida were denied the right to vote because their names were the same or similar to a felon.
Moore could have shown footage of a roadblock and told how Florida law enforcement officers turned black drivers of vans and buses away from the polls for failure to provide limousine or chauffer licenses. Moore could have detailed how 20,000 Gore votes mysteriously disappeared in Volusia County and were later reinstated. That gap allowed Fox News analyst John Ellis to project his first cousin, G. W. Bush, to be the winner.
What else did Moore leave out?:
In his AMERICAN DYNASTY, Republican theorist Kevin Philips documents four generations of Bush family war profiteers dating back to World War I. This includes Samuel Bush's dual role as entrepreneur with Buckeye Steel Casting and government official on the Armaments Board. George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, was a key operative in the Union Banking Corporation that was seized by the U.S. government in 1942 and liquidated under the Trading with the Enemy Act for helping fund the Nazi war effort. Granddaddy Bush joined the Board of Directors of Union Bank in 1934 and stayed there as the bank aided Hitler's rise to power. The government liquidation yielded a reported $750,000 apiece for Prescott Bush and his father-in-law, George Herbert Walker.
The Bush family is close friends of the self-proclaimed Messiah and creepy cult leader Reverend Sun Myung Moon. In January 1995, Moon's Women's Federation for World Peace paid Bush the Elder at least one million dollars for a speech. Former President Bush was also the principal speaker in the November 1996 opening dinner for Moon's new weekly newspaper "Tiempos del Mundo" of Argentina.
Pulitzer Prize winner Seymour Hersh reported in February 2002's New Yorker that the Bush administration authorized U.S. cooperation with Pakistan in the December 2001 "Kunduz airlift" that sent airplanes and helicopters to rescue Pakistanis fighting with the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Note that the Unocal pipeline from Central Asia goes through Afghanistan into Pakistan. A coincidence?
Article VI of the Nuremberg Charter defines "Crimes Against Peace" as "planning, preparation, initiation or waging of war of aggression or war in violation of international treaties . . . or participation in a common plan or conspiracy . . . to wage an aggressive war." The Bush doctrine of "pre-emption" really had nothing to do with pre-empting an Iraqi attack on the U.S. It is simply the widely discredited Nazi doctrine of "preventive war" established by Hitler to claim the right to attack any country that may pose some possible threat at an unspecific time in the future.
FALSE PROFITS: THE INSIDE STORY OF BCCI, THE WORLD'S MOST CORRUPT FINANCIAL EMPIRE, by award-winning journalists Peter Truell and Larry Gurwin, documents in detail that Bush brothers Jeb and George both had close links to the drug-running Bank of Credit and Commerce International (aka "Bank of Crooks and Criminals International," according to the CIA).
Criminal and civil suits against BCCI establish that Bush's good buddy James R. Bath, was a close business associate of Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law, terrorist financier Khalid bin Mahfouz. Moore correctly shows that Bath and Bush were both disciplined by the Air National Guard at the same time.
Professor Katherine Van Wormer, co-author of the authoritative text ADDICTION TREATMENT, suggests that "George W. Bush manifests all the classic patterns of what alcoholics in recovery call 'the dry drunk.' His behavior fits a pattern of years of heavy drinking and possible cocaine use."
These are just a few facts that Michael Moore left out of his fair and balanced documentary Fahrenheit 9/11. Those who hate this moderate, well-documented film may be most bothered by the actual footage of President Bush. Key scenes include: Bush's infamous, endless study of My Pet Goat in an elementary school class while the World Trade Center burned; Bush's legendary banquet speech referring to "the haves and have- mores" as "my base"; Bush's bumbling, malapropic final warning to "don't be fooled again." What most bugs F911 critics is clearly not the material Michael Moore presents. It's the fair and balanced footage of George W. Bush revealing who he truly is.

[572Daytona]

I've read Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, I guess that stuff must be true too since it is published in a book by award winning authors :rolleyes:

[AngryJosh]

Liberal Wiener!!!;)

[BUSTI]

Azdon,
Moore's standard M.O. is to use half facts, lies, inuendo and his very slanted opinion to pass off as documentation. The truth about this man is that he hates his country and he is prepared to say anything for money! He is a ***** in the first and best meaning of the word. You should be ashamed of yourself for heralding his movie! But I have come to expect nothing less from dem-orats of your kind!
:yuk: :yuk:

[HighRoller]

Hmmm. Florida, eh Don? Do you REALLY wanna go there? Do you want to explain why Democratic pollsters were found with voting machines and stacks of ballots in their cars? Explain to me why Al Gore went to court to get the votes of overseas military servicemen thrown out? And please enlighten us why he went to all the trouble to demand a rcount, but not demand a FULL recount. Turns out he only wanted a recount in the counties favorable to him.
Wake up, Don. Al Gore LOST, fair and square. He at no time EVER led the ballot counts in Florida, and multiple recounts by multiple sources since 2000 have confirmed that GW Bush did indeed win Florida by almost 10,000 votes. Al Gore was the first one to run to the Supreme Court to protest the legitimate outcome, so if anyone is guilty of stealing an election(or trying), it's Gore.
As far as Michael Moore, this guy is a lying piece of trash and a fraud. He represents himself as an "independant" person just trying to expose the truth for the good of the people. Strangely, his friends are all left wing wackos, and he's so far left his car doesn't even have a right turn signal. I thought the leftists in this country were the arbitors of tolerance, and did not engage in hate speech? Well, Fraudandhate 911 is nothing but hate speech from beginning to end. This guy hates Bush, period. He's trying to manipulate facts into half truths that look bad for Bush, and even worse he presents his slanderous piece of work as a documentary. Why hasn't he ever done a movie about Clinton, The Kennedys, or maybe even Sandy Bergler? He is an independant after all, and there is plenty of good material inside BJBill's administration that would make GW look like a priest!
Your schtick is old, Don, and I feel sorry for your son if you told him this movie is the truth. Again, I'll ask you to buy your son John Kerry's book. I dare you to, as a matter of fact. If you're going to support the man you better find out how bad it is ahead of time. LURCH/WHEELCHAIR 2004!!

[Spotondl]

Sorry, can't take anything seriously from France... Where else would pussy's boo and spit on Lance Armstrong during a race simply because he is American and kicking some serious ass...
Vive la resistance!!! Go get 'em Lance.... Oh, and fart in their general direction too....

[ROZ]

go post that here (http://www.vdriveboat.com)

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Isn't Harvey Wasserman so liberal hollywood puke? The best retort to this article is the one that I think Dave C posted a few backs that was written by a liberal reporter for the liberal Washington Post who flat out said the movie was fantasy. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[mirvin]

Isn't Michael "Fat FU CK" Moore Canadian??
No offense to Canadians but, take care of your sh it;)
mirvin

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by BUSTI
Azdon,
Moore's standard M.O. is to use half facts, lies, inuendo and his very slanted opinion to pass off as documentation. :yuk: :yuk:
That has been his MO all throughout his career. Not only is there half facts etc. but selective use of facts... some have been simply omitted in his work.

[AzDon]

Originally posted by mirvin
Isn't Michael "Fat FU CK" Moore Canadian??
No offense to Canadians but, take care of your sh it;)
mirvin
Michael Moore is from Flint, Michigan which was in the US last time I checked.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by AzDon
Michael Moore is from Flint, Michigan which was in the US last time I checked.
Well... that's a matter of opinion... My sister lives about 15 miles from there... I think they'd rather Flint was in Canada.

[HighRoller]

BTW, could you present us with some kind of qualifications and credentials for Mr. Moore that will assure us he has a reputation as an accurate investigative reporter? I'd hate to think he was just a political hack with an agenda.:D

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by HighRoller
BTW, could you present us with some kind of qualifications and credentials for Mr. Moore that will assure us he has a reputation as an accurate investigative reporter? I'd hate to think he was just a political hack with an agenda.:D
You mean like he was on 60 minutes... or 20/20..... oh, those guys appear to be hacks with political agendas... bad example! Well uhhhhhhhh... like on CNN.... aw crap.... how about FOX... SHIT!.. They all have agendas!
Mr. Moore is just VERRRY transparent about it!

[rrrr]

.....Written by French Intelligence experts Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquié, the book asserts......
All the further I read.
Do they mention anything in the book about how the French assisted Saddam in winking at the food-for-oil program restrictions? Perhaps the billions of dollars diverted from the Iraqi people?

[MagicMtnDan]

Moore is as fair and balanced as you are (not at all).
Moore's excuse is he's a Marxist. What's yours?

[SeaRayPat]

AZ DON is a AssHxxx.....do you own a boat ?

[AzDon]

Yes I do own a boat....... a 21'v-drive cruiser...thanks for asking!

[ROZ]

Originally posted by SeaRayPat
AZ DON is a AssHxxx.....do you own a boat ?
visit his website to see if he has a political forum....

[MagicMtnDan]

Originally posted by ROZ
visit his website to see if he has a political forum....
His Web site is completely CENSORED - seems to violate most principles of free speech but since he's a hypocrite it's understandable.
He's like the dog owner who doesn't bother to pick up after his/her dog...the shitt he leaves behind is everyone else's problem, isn't that right Don?! :mad:

[angry dad]

hmmm... how about an answer, dumbass..ahh... sorry i mean azdon??

[Jeanyus]

Azdon is the guy who brings his dog to someone elses yard to take a crap.

[058]

Hey...I love it when Don post his political drivel...just proves how hateful he and other left wingers are. Also shows how scared they are that Bush is going to win in November. Every time Kerry opens his mouth he is critical of the present administration but he has yet to say anything about what he stands for and what his administration would do differently. He offeres nothing constructive and he isn't smart enough to know that turns off voters. The only thing he has said is he will raise taxes. He and most Democrats think we aren't smart enough to handle our own money so they think it is their obligation to take it away from the taxpayers. I question the sanity of anyone who is motavated by hate, it clouds their thinking but then again left-wingers have clouded thinking anyway. Keep posting this garbage Don, your loosing what little shread of credability you might have once had.

[AzDon]

Once again, you guys prove how little class and manners you have by substituating namecalling and abusuive behavior for logical, credible debate arguments. It's called poor sportsmanship and most of us CIVILIZED people teach our kids at an early age that the rules of civility require us to lose graciously when our opponent prevails in a defined competition.
MMD- You should know because I've explained it before.....V-Driveboat.Com is a BOATING forum and doesn't allow ANY politics or religion to be discussed. It is completely devoid of ALL POLITICAL VIEWS. If you want to call this censorship, FINE, call it censorship.....EQUAL OPPORTUNITY CENSORSHIP!!
You see, unlike a lot of you folks, I'M ALL ABOUT THE FAIRNESS!
It may be censorship, but it's fair to everybody- GET IT?
If you don't want to see political debate on "***boat Sandbar", you should get a petition going and I'll even sign it! But if you think I'm going to sit passively while you use this place as a one-sided propaganda machine for the GOP, You are mistaken!
Have me banned so you can keep things one-sided? Who would be guilty of censorship and unfairness then?

[mike37]

Originally posted by AzDon
Once again, you guys prove how little class and manners you have by substituating namecalling and abusuive behavior for logical, credible debate arguments.
MMD- You should know because I've explained it before.....V-Driveboat.Com is a BOATING forum and doesn't allow ANY politics or religion to be discussed. It is completely devoid of ALL POLITICAL VIEWS. If you want to call this censorship, FINE, call it censorship.....EQUAL OPPORTUNITY CENSORSHIP!!
You see, unlike a lot of you folks, I'M ALL ABOUT THE FAIRNESS!
It may be censorship, but it's fair to everybody- GET IT?
If you don't want to see political debate on "***boat Sandbar", you should get a petition going and I'll even sign it! But if you think I'm going to sit passively while you use this place as a one-sided propaganda machine for the GOP, You are mistaken!
Have me banned so you can keep things one-sided? Who would be guilty of censorship and unfairness then? But if you think I'm going to sit passively while you use this place as a one-sided propaganda machine for the GOP, You are mistaken!
Azdon you must be joking because you are the only one that uses this sight for a propaganda machine
I don’t think any other board member has posted as many political propaganda post as you

[cdog]

AZ Don. Are you for real? That has got to be one of the dumbest post's I have ever read. The sad part is that you actualy belive this she-it. I challenge you to educate yourself on fact's and not Jerry Springer politics. Wake up bro.:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[AzDon]

058-
I think you've let your political ideology take precedence over our friendship. I can agree that we disagree, but I think you take politics too seriously for that. Perhaps I should apologize for believing that food workers should be paid enough to, um, live in a house, but that is what I believe and I haven't heard a credible argument that would compel me to believe otherwise! I guess I should have chosen below-cost truck rates as an issue instead!

[Jordy]

Originally posted by ROZ
go post that here (http://www.v-driveboat.com)
Last I checked you still couldn't register there... :(
Gee, I thought Commie Don might have an original thought, but it turns out to be another cut and paste jobby job from the Pinko Commie Hotline... :rolleyes:
Oh, and it's V-driveboat.com :D

[angry dad]

hmmm.. AZDON.. narrow minded lib??? maybe one day you will WAKE UP!!. bush is good....:D just keep it trimmed:D

[058]

Originally posted by AzDon
058-
I think you've let your political ideology take precedence over our friendship. I can agree that we disagree, but I think you take politics too seriously for that. Perhaps I should apologize for believing that food workers should be paid enough to, um, live in a house, but that is what I believe and I haven't heard a credible argument that would compel me to believe otherwise! I guess I should have chosen below-cost truck rates as an issue instead! No, Don, I did not let my political ideology take precedence over our friendship. I try to keep those things seperate. The debate we had over food workers and a "living wage" I did not take personally as some might. BTW, all my employees live in houses and not one of them are homeless. This last diatribe you posted was in my opinion was to provoke arguement and to anger, in other words to "yank someone's chain" To post that Michal Moore's movie as a serious documentry is bullshit, he is motavated by hate and will stop at nothing to destroy a man that happens to be the president regardless how he got there, the left has their version of the Florida debate and the right has their version, like it or not he is the president. When Clinton was president I did NOT hate him but I disagreed with his politics and was ashamed of the way he treated the office he held. When you post things that are hate motavated [and your hatred is well documented] as you have many times before what do you expect even between friends. If you present a valid arguement without the hate and venom then perhaps I could take your political viewpoints seriously. BTW I still like you and will always consider you a friend.

[HighRoller]

AZDon, you obviously have a very limited grasp of the free market economy we live in. Companies pay their workers based on two factors.
1.What the work is worth
2.What the market and bottom line will afford
This may sound insensitive, but it is not the responsibility of an employer to make sure an unskilled worker makes a "living wage". It is also not their duty to provide anyone employment for life. Right now, Freightliner trucks in Oregon is battling with the unions over this very issues. It is 10-20% cheaper to produce trucks on the East Coast than here, yet FL has continued to operate, but asked its workers to take a cut in pay and benefits. So you have only two choices. Work for a lower wage, or lose your job when the company moves. Either way the workers will say the company screwed them.
BTW, Don, I assume you are voting for Kerry. How can you justify this when he gets his living money from a company(Heinz) that produces 80% of its product abroad? You're against outsourcing yet you support the man who reaps the benefits of it? Sounds like your ideology is getting in the way of your judgment! Did your kid read Kerry's book yet? I think all the members on here would like to see a book report from Nick afterwards!!

[058]

Speaking about Kerry, what are we suppose to think about the man who as an elitist, he has no clue what a working person has to deal with day to day living? Has he had to worry about making a mortgage payment, kids dental bills or paying a past due utility bill? What does he know about making a payroll? Has he earned a paycheck from a private company in the last 30 years? How can he represent poor and middle class working people when he is so out of touch? The corporation he gets his money from is one of the major outsourcing companys he claims to go after to keep jobs in this country. His wife contributes large sums of money to organizations who's goals is to destroy this country. They want to destroy the very system that made her rich but I would bet they take advantage of every tax break and shelter thats available to them. As a politican who is going to raise taxes do you think taxes effect him? Rather hypocritical of him, don't you think? Don, Since you brought up below cost truck rates, what is the problem? Being an owner/operator for 32 years that hasn't been much of a problem for me, why has it been for you? I don't understand if the rates that were presented to you why did you choose to work for those rates?

[HighRoller]

058, you're a man in my book if you've been an O/O for 32 years! I did it for 3 and decided the pay wasn't worth the BS! Actually, the breaking point was the first year I discovered the truck was taking home more of the gross pay than I was!! But have faith in AZDon's solution! If you don't like the rates, just tell them to pay you more, even if they can't afford it. It's the company's duty to pay you a living wage, even if they can't afford to!

[058]

Originally posted by HighRoller
058, you're a man in my book if you've been an O/O for 32 years! I did it for 3 and decided the pay wasn't worth the BS! Actually, the breaking point was the first year I discovered the truck was taking home more of the gross pay than I was!! But have faith in AZDon's solution! If you don't like the rates, just tell them to pay you more, even if they can't afford it. It's the company's duty to pay you a living wage, even if they can't afford to! Thanks HighRoller, I relish the complement:D I have had a few times I wanted to quit but the alternative wasn't for me. Its amazing what kind of drive you can find within yourself when the job market just doesn't work for you. [I don't play well with others] Even after 32 years I still love it and will continue as long as my health allows.

[HighRoller]

Rock on, dude! What market do you play in? OTR? Local? Regional? And what do you haul?

[v-drive]

Azdon, you always complain about this country and it's leaders but only if they're republican. This country being run by republican or democrat allow you to make these statements without retribution. I would like you to leave this country and live in one of these countries that we have treated so badly and see how long you would live saying the same things that you so freely say here. Open your eyes you piece of garbage or stay on your own site and bother them. Oh but I forgot you don't allow this over there. Why not? I think it's because you know you would lose the meager following you haveyou P.O.S..... :mad:v-drive

[rrrr]

Originally posted by 058
They want to destroy the very system that made her rich but I would bet they take advantage of every tax break and shelter thats available to them. As a politican who is going to raise taxes do you think taxes effect him? Rather hypocritical of him, don't you think? Don, Since you brought up below cost truck rates, what is the problem? Being an owner/operator for 32 years that hasn't been much of a problem for me, why has it been for you? I don't understand if the rates that were presented to you why did you choose to work for those rates?
Last year President Bush (whose major asset is 2600 acres of scrubby land) paid $250,000 in Federal income taxes. The Heinz-Kerrys (owners of FIVE multimillion dollar properties and a $45M Gulfstream V jet) paid $90,000 in taxes.
Whaddya think about that, Don?
And like 058 said, if you don't like what you're getting paid, then get a new job. You whine incessantly about how you are getting screwed. But since we had a Democrat President for eight of the last twelve years, how is it the Republican's fault that O/Os don't make any money?

[058]

Originally posted by HighRoller
Rock on, dude! What market do you play in? OTR? Local? Regional? And what do you haul? I run local [N. Cal] and haul flatbed, I have a few customers I prime haul for and when they aren't busy I subhaul for a couple of flatbed trucking cos. I've hauled just about everything at one time or another. BTW I was leased to Mitchell Bros in the late 70s for about a year since I see you are from Portland. What did you haul and are you still in the industry?

[ROZ]

Originally posted by AzDon
Once again, you guys prove how little class and manners you have by substituating namecalling and abusuive behavior for logical, credible debate arguments. You're no different. After all you're the person insiting such behavior when you know the response. Society is Pavlof and each other's dogs....
Mediocrity at it's finest....

[Jordy]

Originally posted by AzDon
058-
I think you've let your political ideology take precedence over our friendship.
When you're on the losing side of an illogical argument revert to Liberal Handbook suggestion #2647:
Play the friendship card. :rolleyes:

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by jordanpaulk
When you're on the losing side of an illogical argument revert to Liberal Handbook suggestion #2647:
Play the friendship card. :rolleyes:
Can you feel the love????;)

[AzDon]

As an Owner/Operator, I eventually identified that the problem with the rates offered to lease operators was that there was (is) an consistant supply of newbies that sign up to work for below-cost rates. Once I identified this problem as oversupply of the service, I took myself off the market.
As an employee, I'm paid plenty (about $19/hr) and I have experience and certifications that somewhat protect my job from falling into the hands of newbie drivers. My company lives in a competitive marketplace, though, and wage-reductions can always be just around the corner regardless of how well we service our customers. The current culture of big business is to choose based on price and then try to enforce service. Generally, those chemical companies that have left us for a lower price have begged us back, but at the lower price, because their bean-counters will not go back to a higher, service-oriented price. We have gotten a couple back that found that the Gippo carriers were unable to supply the required services and that we were the only carrier available that fits the specs.

[058]

Originally posted by AzDon
As an Owner/Operator, I eventually identified that the problem with the rates offered to lease operators was that there was (is) an consistant supply of newbies that sign up to work for below-cost rates. Once I identified this problem as oversupply of the service, I took myself off the market.
As an employee, I'm paid plenty (about $19/hr) and I have experience and certifications that somewhat protect my job from falling into the hands of newbie drivers. My company lives in a competitive marketplace, though, and wage-reductions can always be just around the corner regardless of how well we service our customers. The current culture of big business is to choose based on price and then try to enforce service. Generally, those chemical companies that have left us for a lower price have begged us back, but at the lower price, because their bean-counters will not go back to a higher, service-oriented price. We have gotten a couple back that found that the Gippo carriers were unable to supply the required services and that we were the only carrier available that fits the specs. Don, that it is the finest form of capitalist business, make yourself indespensable and your services will always be needed. There is hope for you yet, you are on your way to becoming a good Republican....Vote Bush!!!:D :D

[AzDon]

Originally posted by v-drive
Azdon, you always complain about this country and it's leaders but only if they're republican. This country being run by republican or democrat allow you to make these statements without retribution. I would like you to leave this country and live in one of these countries that we have treated so badly and see how long you would live saying the same things that you so freely say here. Open your eyes you piece of garbage or stay on your own site and bother them. Oh but I forgot you don't allow this over there. Why not? I think it's because you know you would lose the meager following you haveyou P.O.S..... :mad:v-drive
This is a perfect example of namecalling /abuse I'm referring to. You also take the liberty of saying that I "hate this country"..... I have never said that and IT ISN'T TRUE! Dislike for a "Supreme Court selected dictator" is not hatred of country just like Iraq had nothing to do with the terror that we declared war on! If you want to exercise blind allegience to an administration that works dilligently to destroy ALL our diplomatic precidents, revoke ALL our civil rights, move ALL of our money into their column, and keep us in a constant state of fear, then I would say it's your choice to abdicate everything this country has stood for in the past by wasting your vote on Mr. Bush.!
As for me, I'm not leaving and I'm going to do my duty as a free-thinking American, and cast my vote for the guy that I believe will do the least harm to the country....... I wish we had a couple of better choices, but we don't!

[mike37]

AZDon
Ya know Don its funny you think it OK to call the president of this country a dictator
But if any one says anything about one of your Dem. buddies they are name callers and uneducated
A lot of us think he is doing the job we asked him to do
And that is because of actions we see happening not some online lies

[AzDon]

Originally posted by 058
Don, that it is the finest form of capitalist business, make yourself indespensable and your services will always be needed. There is hope for you yet, you are on your way to becoming a good Republican....Vote Bush!!!:D :D
Bob-
I think a lot about this stuff... not out of direct self-interest (I'm personally doing fine thanks!) but because I think job exports and alien-labor imports are killing off the ability of American citizens to find job sectors that they can make a living wage in. Education and training can give a TEMPORARY boost, but sectors paying a good wage are QUICKLY IDENTIFIED and other hopeful applicants quickly get trained and flood that labor pool, thus driving wages down. Trucking and food services are two examples of sectors that, while they can't be deported, they are in abundant supply (and thus are sales competitive) AND they have an abundant supply of (thus, potentially cheap) labor at their disposal. If real estate and construction provided steady income, they would also have these problems, as well!
The downside to below-cost wages, is that they are demoralizing and discourage the desperately poor from believing that there is any incentive to hope to improve their lives by working and participating in productive society......Worse yet, low wages reduce the available consumer dollars that could be spent on the products that businesses have for sale. The biggest lesson of the great depression is that businesses cease to exist in the absence of customer dollars coming in.
The other point I had made previously about sub-living wages is that a full-time,$6/hr Taco Bell worker who is also a single mother head-of-household would not be able to live in Hayward in a dwelling with electricity and running water EXCEPT THAT she would make so little that she would STILL Qualify for food stamps, housing and child care at taxpayer expense. This is nothing more than a taxpayer subsidy to supplement Taco Bell's cheap wages.

[mike37]

OK do so if we raise wages at toco bell and all other low paying job
What happens
Prices go up
So now as a result of that every one else is now making less because now there dollar buys less
now they want more money
then the price of that goes up and so on
now the minimum wage jobs are back to square one because all the thing they buy cost more
And what do you think of N.A.F.T.A. that was you buddy Als doing
Just think how many illegals we would have taking you job if he were president

[AzDon]

Originally posted by mike37
AZDon
Ya know Don its funny you think it OK to call the president of this country a dictator
But if any one says anything about one of your Dem. buddies they are name callers and uneducated
A lot of us think he is doing the job we asked him to do
And that is because of actions we see happening not some online lies
For the most part, the things I've seen most of the Dems accused of are lightweight and FAR from treasonous. By contrast, I'm amazed that anybody would call Bush's military record anything less than elitist draft-dodging and desertion....I'm amazed that anyone would not see the danger that episodes like Iran/Contra pose to representative governance.
While I AM personally disgusted by Clinton's poor personal judgement by allowing an intern to successfully proposition him, I don't consider that nearly as serious as rigging the workings of the government for your own personal ends as Bush has systematically done.
I'm also disgusted by the "American Spectator" brand of innuendo that hardcore conservatives are so willing to recite as gospel fact in total absence of any facts or proof....like accusing the Clintons of murdering Vince Foster and Ron Brown. Outlets like American Spectator and Rush Limbaugh should be taken to court and asked to prove their innuendo or pay up..... That would also go for Michael Moore and the writers and publishers of the books he used for research.....if his facts aren't accurate!

[mike37]

The fact is that we all have seen the report you talk about
And we have all seen reports that say different
So just because you believe one over the other that males it more true

[058]

Don, I don't want to rehash the old Taco-Bell arguement but just want to add that these are entry level jobs and I don't have any single moms working for me. All of my employees are high school or college students that are quite happy working for the wage we can afford to pay. Deli work isn't something that a high level of training is needed so work justifys the wage. Said it before we have no homeless working for me. In fact I favor eliminating all minimum wage laws and let the market decide pay. I guess that makes me a true capitalist, doesn't it? One more thing, I am doing better now than when Clinton was in office but that doesn't mean I think the president has anything to do with how well or how bad I do personally. You need to get over this intense hatred you have for the Bush family, its not healthy and there is nothing you can do about it anyway. Your one vote will be cancelled out by my one vote.:D

[AzDon]

Originally posted by mike37
OK do so if we raise wages at toco bell and all other low paying job
What happens
Prices go up
So now as a result of that every one else is now making less because now there dollar buys less
now they want more money
then the price of that goes up and so on
now the minimum wage jobs are back to square one because all the thing they buy cost more
And what do you think of N.A.F.T.A. that was you buddy Als doing
Just think how many illegals we would have taking you job if he were president
NAFTA is a project of the "global economy/world government" club, which ALL presidential candidates of both parties since the depression have belonged to. I'm basically protectionist at heart, but if I rejected prez candidates based on issues like NAFTA, there would be nobody to vote for!
As for the Taco-Bell scenario, you are correct that prices would hafta go up.... but only as high as the market would bear! Remember, fast food prices are low as a result of overabundant supply (competition) and abundant cheap labor. If they were forced to raise prices in response to a living wage law, only those establishments that have products that are perceived as being worth the money would survive. I don't know about you, but I'd feel stupid an naive telling my boss that he should pay me more because Taco Bell raised prices. My electricity has gone up 22% and gasoline has doubled, but I don't consider that my employer's problem!

[beer hunter]

Originally posted by AzDon
I'm amazed that anybody would call Bush's military record anything less than elitist draft-dodging and desertion
Don, Bill Clinton's military record has a lot to be desired!
William Jefferson Clinton's Military Record:
Bill Clinton registered for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft.
He was given Selective Service Number 3 26 46 228.
Bill Clinton was classified 2-S on November 17, 1964.
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968.
Bill Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969.
Bill Clinton dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military.
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col. E. Holmes.
Bill Clinton signs enlistment papers and takes the oath of enlistment.
Bill Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as his enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton is now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) as a registrant who has failed to report... remain liable for induction'.
Bill Clinton's birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1, 1969, but, under the law, anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction, is INELIGIBLE!
Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40.
Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice.
Bill Clinton receives pardon on January 21, 1977 from President Jimmy Carter.
Bill Clinton is the FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President.
All these facts are documented, come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by Clinton.

[mike37]

Originally posted by AzDon
NAFTA is a project of the "global economy/world government" club, which ALL presidential candidates of both parties since the depression have belonged to. I'm basically protectionist at heart, but if I rejected prez candidates based on issues like NAFTA, there would be nobody to vote for!
As for the Taco-Bell scenario, you are correct that prices would hafta go up.... but only as high as the market would bear! Remember, fast food prices are low as a result of overabundant supply (competition) and abundant cheap labor. If they were forced to raise prices in response to a living wage law, only those establishments that have products that are perceived as being worth the money would survive. I don't know about you, but I'd feel stupid an naive telling my boss that he should pay me more because Taco Bell raised prices. My electricity has gone up 22% and gasoline has doubled, but I don't consider that my employer's problem!
So why is it the employer's problem for low paying jobs
And isent that exactly what you are complaining about whith your job

[mike37]

And yes it is your employers problem if you cant get to work because you cant afford to buy gas
Because all your cost of living has gon up
Now you have to move somewhere that you can afford and now your boss needs to find someone ells
But he cant fin any one quaffed for the price he was paying you

[058]

Originally posted by AzDon
NAFTA is a project of the "global economy/world government" club, which ALL presidential candidates of both parties since the depression have belonged to. I'm basically protectionist at heart, but if I rejected prez candidates based on issues like NAFTA, there would be nobody to vote for!
As for the Taco-Bell scenario, you are correct that prices would hafta go up.... but only as high as the market would bear! Remember, fast food prices are low as a result of overabundant supply (competition) and abundant cheap labor. If they were forced to raise prices in response to a living wage law, only those establishments that have products that are perceived as being worth the money would survive. I don't know about you, but I'd feel stupid an naive telling my boss that he should pay me more because Taco Bell raised prices. My electricity has gone up 22% and gasoline has doubled, but I don't consider that my employer's problem! So when all those fast food places go belly up because they need to charge $8.75 for a burger or a taco to satisfy "living wage" laws thats ok with you? The people who stuck their neck out to start a business, invested their life savings [in some cases] took all the risks associated with going into and running a business, working long hours, ect....I guess thats ok with you. They are just filthy capitalist that don't deserve to have a business, does that sum it up?

[AzDon]

Are those books in the fiction section? Seriously! your info is in complete contradiction to well-known public bios that say that he recieved deferrment as a Rhodes Scholar.
Clinton's military record is really less relevant than Bush's because we weren't hiring him to be a "war president" and it was well known that he hadn't served.
The criminal desertion part bothers me, but I'll need credible proof before believing it because it was never in the mainstream media. I won't vote this guy another job before learning more about this.

[AzDon]

Originally posted by 058
So when all those fast food places go belly up because they need to charge $8.75 for a burger or a taco to satisfy "living wage" laws thats ok with you? The people who stuck their neck out to start a business, invested their life savings [in some cases] took all the risks associated with going into and running a business, working long hours, ect....I guess thats ok with you. They are just filthy capitalist that don't deserve to have a business, does that sum it up?
Things changed for slaveholding plantation owners when we took a stand and abolished slavery...Did that make it wrong?
Fast food places have sprung up everywhere and consumers have unwittingly exploited the competition to get their lunch at artificially low prices. The establishments have been able to oblige as a result of abundant supply of cheap laborers. If lunch choices were in short supply, all the outlets could survive while raising prices and would be less crowded as the folks that need to start brown bagging would disappear.
I'm making a purely capitalist argument that in a sector that is oversupplyed, not all businesses will survive if one of their cost factors change and they are unable to raise prices. (like owner/operators that can't raise prices in the face of rising fuel costs)

[mike37]

Originally posted by AzDon
Are those books in the fiction section? Seriously! your info is in complete contradiction to well-known public bios that say that he recieved deferrment as a Rhodes Scholar.
Clinton's military record is really less relevant than Bush's because we weren't hiring him to be a "war president" and it was well known that he hadn't served.
The criminal desertion part bothers me, but I'll need credible proof before believing it because it was never in the mainstream media. I won't vote this guy another job before learning more about this. Amazing how you just pass over any wrong doing of you guy

[058]

Originally posted by AzDon
Things changed for slaveholding plantation owners when we took a stand and abolished slavery...Did that make it wrong?
Fast food places have sprung up everywhere and consumers have unwittingly exploited the competition to get their lunch at artificially low prices. The establishments have been able to oblige as a result of abundant supply of cheap laborers. If lunch choices were in short supply, all the outlets could survive while raising prices and would be less crowded as the folks that need to start brown bagging would disappear.
I'm making a purely capitalist argument that in a sector that is oversupplyed, not all businesses will survive if one of their cost factors change and they are unable to raise prices. (like owner/operators that can't raise prices in the face of rising fuel costs) In your world that may be the way it works but here in the real world it just doesn't work that way. There are enough hurdles to get over in the business world that having to pay $14.00/hour to the pizza delivery guy or the burger flipper would bury all the food establishments. You can't tell me you would pay $45.00 for a Dominos Pizza just to assure the guy can pay for his BMW and when that Dominos Pizza goes bust what do we do with all the unemployed Burger flippers and delivery people that were once working for Dominos, Taco-Bell, Jack-in-the-box or MacDonalds?

[angry dad]

thats a democrat (liberal) they always ignore the facts!!!ooh yea don.....tell us ....just like our pal m moore!!! twist the truth!! tell us one thing.. then vote the other???take 1% and twist the truth!! flip flop kerry!!! WAKE UP LIB!!! the terrorists are going to win with people like you voting!!!:mad:

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by angry dad
thats a democrat (liberal) they always ignore the facts!!!ooh yea don.....tell us ....just like our pal m moore!!! twist the truth!! tell us one thing.. then vote the other???take 1% and twist the truth!! flip flop kerry!!! WAKE UP LIB!!! the terrorists are going to win with people like you voting!!!:mad:
Shit, with an avatar like that, we'll all be hypnotized while they take over the country...:D

[angry dad]

sorry.. i think..:D :D :D

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by angry dad
sorry.. i think..:D :D :D
Don't be....... I'm mesmerized... damn nice jubblies!

[AzDon]

I'm not talkin $45 pizzas and BMW's....... I'm talkin about people being able to support themselves on an entry level job.... We bitch that we want these folks to take initiative and get a job rather than collect from government programs, yet we do nothing to assure that getting that job will be the better choice for them monetarily.......
Pizza Hut would be committing suicide by raising prices above what the market will bear..... Establishments that produce a high-value product and experience would survive.
And further: raising the wages also increases the number of potential customers that can afford to buy a pizza.

[AzDon]

Originally posted by angry dad
thats a democrat (liberal) they always ignore the facts!!!ooh yea don.....tell us ....just like our pal m moore!!! twist the truth!! tell us one thing.. then vote the other???take 1% and twist the truth!! flip flop kerry!!! WAKE UP LIB!!! the terrorists are going to win with people like you voting!!!:mad:
I Usta live in Glendora and don't remember it as an angry place!
Your post is abusive and doesn't contain a single supportable fact. Except for the boobs, it's a complete waste of ink!!

[058]

Originally posted by AzDon
"......customers that can afford to buy a pizza." And for those who can't afford to buy a pizza we will offer financing...FHA, VA or conventional at competitive rates. We will offer fixed rates and variable intrest rates and for those of you who have bad credit we will arrainge financing thru our local loan shark.:D

[Relaxalot]

Debunking Farenheit 9/11
by Brittany Craigo
For months, many have anticipated the debut of Michael Moore’s Farenheit 9/11. What would he say? What would he uncover? What new theory would he attempt to convince the public of, by cutting and pasting strips of footage, as he did in Bowling for Columbine and Roger and Me? I had heard about many of the phony claims and conspiracy theories to occur in Farenheit 9/11. And I knew that sooner or later, I would be forced to debate one of the many automatons who had been indoctrinated by his socialist propaganda. I knew, however, that I couldn’t critique a movie that I had not seen without being disingenuous. So I strapped on my Bush gear and headed toward the theatre to watch the quasi communist in action.
The movie opens with the 2000 election. I was baffled to hear Moore claim that “numerous investigations said that Gore won Florida.” Which numerous investigations were these? The New York Times1, the Washington Post,2 and USA Today,3 reported the same consensus after both recounts: George W. Bush won. I’m willing to accept the fact that, nationally, Gore won the popular vote. That is accurate. However, we have something called the “electoral college.” But to claim that “numerous investigations said that Gore won Florida” is preposterous! This is undoubtedly why Moore didn’t choose to name these “numerous sources.” There were none.
Then, in a pure pathetic act, Moore shows footage of CNN calling Florida for Gore, followed by Fox News calling Florida for Bush, and then CNN retracting their previous claim. The theory here was that Gore had won Florida and numerous stations announced it until, lo and behold, Fox News said Bush won Florida and the rest of the news stations “followed their lead.” First off, the notion that CNN and the rest of the news stations would all of a sudden change the results to fit those of one station- Fox News- is ridiculous. I highly doubt that Tom Brokaw sat; waiting for what Fox said in order to “follow their lead.” If that were the case, I would argue that CNN and all the rest who changed their results, to fit those of Fox News, should be wiped off the face of journalism as we know it. Just imagine it: “Well... Fox News said Bush won... we better say Bush won too!” Give me a break.
Why did Fox News call Florida for Bush? They didn’t. Fox News, along with CNN, ABC, NBC etc. all incorrectly called Florida for Gore more than an hour before polls had closed in several conservative Florida counties.4 After getting wind of the fact that they were all wrong, Fox News and the rest of the stations retracted their statements. But what does Moore do in this movie? The same thing he does in all of his movies. He spliced and diced the footage to make it seem as though Fox News deliberately lied and somehow convinced the rest of the stations to lie too. But there is a much more important fact that Moore unintentionally raises here: By calling Florida for Gore before the polls had closed in these highly Republican counties, residents didn’t bother to vote, since the election had already been called in Gore’s favor. According to Democratic strategist Bob Beckel, Bush lost up to 8,000 votes because of the media’s reporting errors.5 But Moore didn’t mention this. Instead he mentions that George W. Bush’s cousin was working for Fox News that night. What he fails to mention, however, is that, as previously noted, Fox News called Florida for Gore as well and by the time Fox had corrected itself and announced Florida for Bush at 2:16 a.m., all polls were already closed and there was no harm to be done. I wonder how Moore missed all those facts.6
After the Florida debacle, Michael Moore introduces us to the ‘convoluted’ relationship between the Bush family and the House of Saud. First off, though wouldn’t consider myself “politically correct,” and though I think that the Saudi government is obviously not one of perfection, I found Moore’s depiction of the Saudis to be unfair. The fact that Michael Moore chose to lump all Saudis and members of the Royal Saudi family into the terrorism category is completely hypocritical. Isn’t Michael Moore supposed to be the liberal-minded peace-keeper, looking out for minorities and such? His attempt to convince ignorant viewers that the House of Saud is only akin to George Bush is a pure example of his manipulative nature. Needless to say, I was beyond surprised when those surrounding me in the movie theatre shook their heads at every Saudi that flashed upon the screen. Imagine if someone had depicted all blacks as Black Panthers or all Moslems as part of the Taliban! That isn’t ok. But depicting every Saudi as a terrorist is, simply because they have a relationship with America and, thus, its current president.
Moreover, if Bush “wakes up in the morning, thinking about what’s best for the Saudis, rather than thinking about what’s best for you” (as Moore claims), why did we invade Iraq? By invading Iraq and securing those oil fields, the Saudis probably stood to lose billions of dollars! Aside from that, the Saudi family members are Sunnis; the thought that we would liberate the Shiites of Iraq plagued them with fear. This is precisely why King Fahd exclaimed, before we went to war, that Saudi Arabia “rejects outright any infringement on Iraq’s unity, independence, resources and internal security, as well as a military occupation”7 Michael Moore, however, presumes that maybe Bush “told Prince Bandhar not to worry because he already had a plan” (meaning Iraq). Yes, “don’t worry Prince Bandhar. We’ll soon be taking billions of dollars away from your family and liberating your archenemy!” I’m sure that made the prince feel wonderful. Moore obviously lacks common sense on this issue, or at least hopes his audience does.
In addition, Moore’s overexerted attempt to paint the Bush-Bin Laden connection as anything spectacular is ridiculous. As the movie notes, the Bush family was connected to the Bin Ladens, (who claim to have disowned Osama), through the Carlyle Group. But the Carlyle group is a highly connected D.C. firm that specializes in aerospace and defense investments, so good luck finding any government official who isn’t tied to the Bin Ladens. Even George Soros, who is probably the most anti-Bush figure in America right now, has 100,000,000 dollars invested in the Carlyle Group; Bill Clinton is affiliated with the Carlyle Group, along with his former Secretary of State, Madeline Albright8 and, according to John Hardman, “Jimmy Carter met with 10 of Osama Bin Laden’s brothers early in 2000 on a fund-raising trip for the Carter Center in Atlanta.” If you ask me, George Bush needs a few more Saudi friends in order to keep up with the Democrats!
The Bush-Bin Laden “connection” all comes into play as we “learn” that the White House allowed the Bin Laden family to fly out of America after the attacks. I can’t blame Michael Moore for this mistake because there have been many new revelations since he began making his film. In fact, in an interview with The Hill, Richard Clark, the ex terrorism czar who recently wrote a book denouncing the Bush administration, admitted that it was his own sole decision to allow the Bin Ladens to fly out of the country. He stated that, “I take responsibility for it. I don’t think it was a mistake, and I’d do it again.”9 While Moore was most likely unaware of this fact at the time he was making his movie, he was dishonest in implying that the Bin Ladens’ departure from the U.S. was on September 11th, while all other planes were grounded. In fact, the Bin Ladens departed in the days following September 11th, when the grounding for commercial flights had already been lifted.
Moore also accuses Bush of “taking too many vacations.” We’ve all heard this before. He cites a Washington Post article, claiming that during the first eight months in office, Bush was on “vacation” 42% of the time. I decided to do a little research on that article and- surprise surprise- found his claims to be a bit, shall we say, “off.” It was actually the first year and eight months in office and included trips to foreign nations to discuss foreign policy. According to that Washington Post article, most of that time was spent in Camp David.10 Perhaps this is why one of the photos we see of Bush “vacationing” at Camp David, is a picture of George W. Bush and none other than Tony Blair- the Prime Minister of England. And while Moore attempts to leave the audience with the impression that Camp David is a place for lounging and drinking beer, Wikipedia Encyclopedia states that it “[is] often used for formal and informal discussion between the United States and world leaders,” and cites many historical negotiations that have taken place there.11
Moore finally takes his biggest cheap shot at President Bush; chastising him for continuing to calmly read to students in Florida (for seven minutes) after just having been informed that the World Trade Center had been attacked. I couldn’t help but giggle at this one. You know that leftists have got their panties in a twist, when they resort to this in order to criticize the president. I suppose Moore expected Bush to live up to his “cowboy status” by pulling a Glock out of a holster and yelling, “BRING ‘EM ON!” On the contrary, Bush acted in a complete professional manner. Anyone could clearly see from the expression on his face, that he was in complete shock and distress, though he remained calm. In fact, the teacher who was in the room, at the time, recently came rushing to Bush’s defense, explaining that his calming effect had, “helped us get through a very difficult day.” She admitted that she had not voted for Bush, but said, “That day I would have voted for him.”12 Ouch.
Moore then begins to talk about the infamous memo that the White House received before September 11th, entitled, “Bin Laden Wants to Attack America.” Aside from the fact that we’ve known Bin Laden wanted to attack America since 1993, Moore forgets that the memo shed no light as to when or where the attack would take place. After all, fourteen out of the seventeen sentences in that PDB were historical in nature. But perhaps Bush purposely ignored the memo, knowing full-well what was about to happen. As Moore wonders, “Maybe the war in Afghanistan was really about something else.” He notes that “In 1997 while George W. Bush was Governor of Texas, a delegation of Taliban leaders from Afghanistan flew to Houston to meet with Unocal executives to discuss the building of a pipeline through Afghanistan, bringing natural gas from the Caspian Sea.” When I first heard this, I thought I had surely missed something. But then I remembered who had directed the garbage I was watching, and began thinking logically once again. What did Governor Bush have to do with the discussion to build a pipeline in Afghanistan? That pipeline was sought out under the Clinton Administration. Yes, Bush happened to be governor of Texas at the time, but that’s completely irrelevant to the meetings which occurred between Unocal and the Taliban at Bill Clinton’s concession!13 But Moore plays with words; purposely including irrelevant information regarding Bush, to connect him with the topic at hand. Moreover, when the pipeline deal was actually implemented in 2002, Unocal released a press release, stating that, “Unocal has no plans or interest in becoming involved in any projects in Afghanistan.”14
If I were to present an award to the slimiest element in Farenheit, it would have to go to Moore’s depiction of Saddam Hussein and his regime before the invasion of Iraq. Oh it was a wonderful place. We see children flying kites, a woman getting married and Saddam holding a child. I can’t even express the outrage that causes me, having known someone whose family was slaughtered by Saddam Hussein’s henchmen during the invasion of Kuwait. This crossed the boundary between an anti-Bush documentary and a new form of Leni Riefenstahl-like propaganda. The way Moore portrayed Saddam Hussein was exactly the way that she portrayed Adolf Hitler, in order to gain support for the Nazi agenda. By claiming that Saddam Hussein “never took the life of any American or threatened any American,” Moore fails to acknowledge the 148 American soldiers killed (in combat) by Saddam Hussein’s regime during the Gulf War,16 his attacks on American planes patrolling no-fly zones for a consecutive ten years after the Gulf War15 and his attempt to assassinate George H.W. Bush; but I guess military personnel and Republican presidents don’t count. And of course, it wouldn’t be a Michael Moore film without the footage of those evil, brutal American soldiers of ours. Not one of them is cast in a good light. Instead, we are shown only what Michael Moore wants us to see- insensitive hicks, just looking for a thrill and a few soldiers who are vehemently opposed to the war. There are no heroes; few patriots- only Moore’s presentation of how he views Americans. He also fails to mention that the structure we see being so ferociously destroyed by American explosives was Saddam’s Iraqi Ministry of Defense.17 Needless to say, he furthers the idea that the U.S. military is reckless, heartless, and brainless.
Then, of course, we’re subjected to the baseless rhetoric about the PATRIOT Act. I found it interesting that while Michael Moore decides to “read” the Act to the senators from his ice cream truck (in order to point out its many over-looked “flaws”), the audience never hears it. We don’t even hear a snippet of the PATRIOT Act’s abuse of civil liberties. Why? Because Michael Moore knows quite well that if we were to hear or read the PATRIOT Act for ourselves, we would realize how necessary and, in fact, over-due it was. For anyone who is unfamiliar with the PATRIOT Act, it represented a huge breakthrough in the way our intelligence shares information. Sec. 203 finally allowed law enforcement to share information with intelligence agencies. This is crucial to our national defense and, indeed, imperative, if we wish to prevent another 9/11. Despite the fact that there have been no documented Civil Rights abuses under the PATRIOT Act, Moore rounds up a few paranoid cooks that insist they were targeted by the FBI, for being against the war. In reality, the PATRIOT Act allows the same search and seizure methods that are already allotted for local crime. Search warrants and “reasonable cause” are still mandatory under the PATRIOT Act.18
Moore then pulls a stunt which had the audience in tears. He spoke with Representative Porter Goss, who was defending the PATRIOT ACT. Gross informs Moore that problems with the PATRIOT Act can be reported by calling a toll-free “800 number.” We then see words flashed across the screen, informing the audience that there is no “800 number,” but that Goss does have a private telephone line, as he flashes their (202) office number across the screen. Once again, while Moore won a few laughs, he was lying through his teeth. The U.S. House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (where problems with the PATRIOT act can be reported) does have a toll-free number, though its prefix is (877). The number is 1-877-858-9040.19 Somebody ought to tell Moore, so he doesn’t have to go through the trouble of yelling it over a loud-speaker in an ice cream truck again.
Of course it wouldn’t be a Michael Moore film without him doing what he’s famous for- heckling unsuspecting people and making them look crazy for not taking him seriously. He approaches some Congressmen, in order to get them to “sign their kids up for the army.” It was just asinine. How does a parent sign their child up for the army? His rationale for doing so is that “only one congressman has a son or daughter enlisted in the armed forces.” FLAT-OUT-LIE. According to Kelly Beaucar, who wrote a Fox News article, entitled, Handful of Congressman Send Their Kids to War, “There are at least seven members of Congress with children in the Armed Forces.” In fact, there are eight: Tim Johnson(D), Marilyn Musgrave(R), Ed Schrock(R), Joe Wilson(R), John Kline(R), Duncan Hunter(R), Todd Akin(R)20, and Joe Biden(D)21 are all Congressmen who have children currently serving in the military, not to mention the 36 veterans in congress22. And Moore would probably disheartened to know that his favorite punching bag, John Ashcroft, also had a son serving in the military.23
Moore seems to have a knack for ignoring relevant information. Upon discussing the Coalition of the Willing, he only mentions the small countries that don’t possess troops, while leaving out the countries which do, such as Poland, England and Australia.24 And of course we’re supposed to be disgusted that our armed forces possess large quantities of low-income earners and minorities, and that recruiters often go to the more unfortunate towns, looking for people to enlist. Think about that argument. Leftists like Moore are upset when a company doesn’t hire enough minorities and upset when the military hires too many! Only someone as ungrateful as Michael Moore, could be appalled at the fact that low-income earners from places like Flint, MI are “targeted” by the military and granted the greatest opportunities that America has to offer- education, money, benefits, housing, training, food and heroism. But, of course, Moore sees none of these things. He is still too blinded by his hatred for the United States and his belief that the U.S. military is the embodiment of shame.
Michael Moore ends Farenheit 9/11 with a quote from George Orwell. I, myself, have a quote from George Orwell that Moore just may have overlooked.
“If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, he that is not with me is against me.”25 I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Some links below may require registering to online newspaper.
1: http://www.nytimes.com
2 :http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com
3: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2001-04-03-floridamain.htm
4: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200312100915.asp
5: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200312100915.asp
6: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/11/14/politics/main249357.shtml
7: http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/5421527.htm
8: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group
9: http://www.hillnews.com/news/052604/clarke.aspx
10: http://www.washingtonpost.com
11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David
12: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/24/102357.shtml
13: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2016340.stm
14: http://www.unocal.com/uclnews/98news/centgas.htm
15: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Casualties
16: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0211/18/sdi.06.html
17: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/and http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723
18: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
19: http://intelligence.house.gov/
20: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82469,00.html
21: http://www.washingtontimes.com
22: http://grunt.space.swri.edu/senatevet.htm
23: http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions
24: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003
25: http://www.george-orwell.org/l_quotes.html
Contact Brittany Craigo
E-mail: colapsingtrust@yahoo.com

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Relaxalot
By calling Florida for Gore before the polls had closed in these highly Republican counties, residents didn’t bother to vote, since the election had already been called in Gore’s favor. According to Democratic strategist Bob Beckel, Bush lost up to 8,000 votes because of the media’s reporting errors.5 But Moore didn’t mention this. Instead he mentions that George W. Bush’s cousin was working for Fox News that night. What he fails to mention, however, is that, as previously noted, Fox News called Florida for Gore as well and by the time Fox had corrected itself and announced Florida for Bush at 2:16 a.m., all polls were already closed and there was no harm to be done. I wonder how Moore missed all those facts.6
An awful lot to read, but good stuff. This excerpt above exemplifies Mr. Moores selective use of facts. When the facts suit him... he weaves them into his web. When they don't, he conveniently omits them.

[058]

Good reading, Thanks for taking the time to post. If Michael Moore hates this country as he portrays why doesn't he leave and go to a country that is more to his political liking? Soviet Union?....Oh forgot...no longer exist....Cuba? Fidel would confiscate his money...Red China?....becoming too industrialized....How about N. Korea, Thats it! He could live out his dream of the perfect communist government in North Korea. I kinda like the sound of "Comrade Michile Moore" He remains in this country because its the only place he can make his millions by trying to destroy the system that permitted him to make his millions. I wonder how much of his fortune he has donated to the IRS or does he take advantage of every deduction, tax break and shelter that is allowed. Perhaps a IRS General Audit is in order for Comrade Moore.

[Schiada76]

HEY!
Don't confuse me with the FACTS!!!!
"I'm a liberal, my minds completely closed!"

[HighRoller]

No, if you're a liberal your mind is so open your brains have fallen out....

[Schiada76]

How about N. Korea, Thats it! He could live out his dream of the perfect communist government in North Korea.
Nope, no food, that fat fu ck wouldn't last a day there.:D :D