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Mandelon
07-29-2004, 06:45 PM
What did you think of Kerry's speech? A bit hypocritical, but a lot of nice ideas....
So how do you raise wages, help the poor, add 40,000 enlistees to the military, gain world wide respect and raise internal security and pay down the debt all at once???? :rolleyes:

Lake Pirate
07-29-2004, 06:48 PM
Ask Bush, he did exactly the opposite all at once.

Dr. Eagle
07-29-2004, 06:50 PM
I'm waiting for him to tell us the story about his parents knitting a small refrigerator... not very big.. or cold... but it tought him a valuable lesson...
He has the President of Beers hand gestures down pat....
HELP IS ON THE WAY:p :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: :p

Dr. Eagle
07-29-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Ask Bush, he did exactly the opposite all at once.
Wow, that must have come from Kerrys speech when the teleprompter skipped...:rolleyes:

Infomaniac
07-29-2004, 06:57 PM
His speach writer did a much better job than the person that picked his neck tie. :rolleyes:
I could not have resisted the temptation to use "shove it" in the speach somewhere. :D

Lake Pirate
07-29-2004, 07:15 PM
I'll be honest.
Overall I thought the speech was pretty weak. It seemed obviously "Presidential" which to me, belittle's the effort. The sweat dropping off his chin was distracting and showed that he was a victim of the pressure of the event. The speech writer tried WAY too hard for quotable quotes. I am also not so sure "Johnny B Good" is apropos as a theme song? It just doesn't fit him. I had hoped for better, but it is hard to live up to everyones expectations in this age of oversell. He'll come out of it alright now that the pressure of this event is behind him.

Dr. Eagle
07-29-2004, 07:19 PM
He did well, all of these convention-speaks are traditionally a bunch of hollow promises and hyperbole, Democratic or Republican. I'll be rolling my eyes just as much at the Republicans speeches... but probably agreeing with the core issues around which all that fluff goes a whole lot more.

V-DRIVES RULE
07-29-2004, 07:29 PM
1st things first for kerry kiss the frenchies ass's. im sorry typical democractic the sky's falling what can i do for you .why dosnt sombody say the old jfk line like what can you do for your country and the vietnam battle tested warrior PLEEASSE 3 purple hearts ? how bout a silver star for haroism!! what a pussy yeah i want him leading this country against the terroists he could have john edwards threaten a lawsuit if they dont straighten up!!

79 Howard
07-29-2004, 07:47 PM
Go to the democratic web-site, read the platform, figure out what and how they plan to do all these great things,do the same for the republicans, don't vote on the man but the issues

Dr. Eagle
07-29-2004, 07:48 PM
Help is on the way.......

Havasu Cig
07-30-2004, 09:55 AM
There was a Veteran that served with Kerry on the Michael Savage show last night that basically said Kerry was a fraud.
Said he fabricated at least one of his injuries that he recieved a Purple Heart for, and said he would cut and run in the middle of a firefight.
They said the story would be posted at Savage .com. The guy sounded pretty pissed off at Kerry.

Dave C
07-30-2004, 09:59 AM
M.S. is just an evil right winger that is brutally honest... thats why I like him!!!!!

RiverToysJas
07-30-2004, 10:34 AM
IMO he's not a good speaker. As for the content of the message, all the typical democratic crap was hit upon. Success, prosparity, and low-cost everything for everyone. :rolleyes: Sounded a lot like an AMWAY rally to me. I'm one of those fool that doesn't think everyone should have the same health care, you get what pay for, and what you can afford, want something better for yourself or family?????? http://op6c.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad12.gifWORK HARDER! http://op6c.com/forums/html/emoticons/bitchslap.gif
RTJas

Her454
07-30-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Infomaniac
His speach writer did a much better job than the person that picked his neck tie. :rolleyes:
I could not have resisted the temptation to use "shove it" in the speach somewhere. :D
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Touch'e.:D

ROZ
07-30-2004, 10:51 AM
There is someone waiting,
Who will hurry up and rescue you,
just Call for Super Chicken!
(puk, ack!)
http://www.digital-sledgehammer.com/superchicken/chicken.gif
:D

summerlove
07-30-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by V-DRIVES RULE
1st things first for kerry kiss the frenchies ass's. im sorry typical democractic the sky's falling what can i do for you .why dosnt sombody say the old jfk line like what can you do for your country and the vietnam battle tested warrior PLEEASSE 3 purple hearts ? how bout a silver star for haroism!! what a pussy yeah i want him leading this country against the terroists he could have john edwards threaten a lawsuit if they dont straighten up!!
3 purle hearts a silver star for heroism and he's a pussy! He volunteered for Vietnam - Bush volunteered to snort coke! If the tables were turned the right would be touting Bush's military record instead of cowering from it.
I thought overall, his speech was excellent - a little more on the idea side and a little light on the how it's gonna happen, but overall, I give it a solid 8 (compared to Reagan and Clinton).
oh yea, and "Help IS on the Way!"

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by summerlove
"Help IS on the Way!"
GOD I HOPE NOT!!!!!!

19cobaltcd
07-30-2004, 11:06 AM
I still want to know when they are going to give a third choice on the voting machine's. "NONE OF THE ABOVE". Then when "none of the above" wins, the parties have to come back with new people, not allowed to put the same idiots back on the ballot.

HighRoller
07-30-2004, 11:21 AM
I'm still a little mystified after listening to some of the speeches from the Dems convention. They apparently have short memories.
The party that holds up Bill Clinton as their hero talked about being "moral"....I think they meant "oral"...
The party that stands against religion but supports gay marriage and abortion on demand talked about "family values"... if it were up to them there wouldn't be any families left!
The party that has a presidential ticket with a net worth of almost a billion dollars talked about being "the defenders of the middle class"... would they even recognize a middle class person?
The party that talked about "personal responsibility" nominated John Edwards as their VP candidate. This man knows about responsibility. He held many innocent doctors responsible for somehow giving children Cerebral Palsy by mistreating them. Although this is technically impossible, he took 40% of the hundreds of million of dollars he won for "children" anyways.
The party that rallies against war in any country suddenly wrapped itself around a supposed "war hero"... In typical Democrat style, their war hero somehow received three purple hearts without ever spending a night in the hospital, then wrote an anti-America book when he returned home before throwing his medals in the trash for publicity. Well, this fits in with having Clinton as his hero...
Finally, Theresa Heinz Hanz Franz Kooky Kerry talked about how her husband would make sure women's voices were finally heard at last...WTF? I thought we already took care of that issue? And thanks to Bush, million of women in the middle East are speaking freely for the first time ever, so we don't need your husband or the wheelchair chaser.
It was a very confusing spectacle...I needed to buy a vowel to figure out which Democrat party is the one you get after you vote for them.....

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 11:35 AM
But HR "help is on the way"

eliminatedsprinter
07-30-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
3 purle hearts a silver star for heroism and he's a pussy! He volunteered for Vietnam - Bush volunteered to snort coke! If the tables were turned the right would be touting Bush's military record instead of cowering from it.
Come on Summerlove you are better than this. Your comments usually reflect the thought's of the last of that dying breed of thoughtfull Democrats. This is not up to your quality.
I would never put down Kerry's navel service. Nor would I act like flying fighters in the air national gaurd during the Vietnam war era was a chicken thing to do, here or overseas.
Kerry's speach was a big nothing. But it didn't hurt him the way his wife's' I'm so great and he'd make a great prez, cause he's married to me speach, would have, if she made on one of the night's the networks covered the convention. She said she wished she lived in a world where a woman like her was called "Smart and Well informed" rather than "Opinionated". Boo hoo. Newsflash for Theresa, people have been calling Lynn C. and Condi Rice smart and well informed for years. She is called opinionated because that is the most polite term that applies.....

gnarley
07-30-2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
"Help IS on the Way!"
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
GOD I HOPE NOT!!!!!!
Seems that a lot a people have already forgotten that Bush used a similar slogan in 2000. He said Hope is on the way. I think it's the same message, so what, you liked the message before in 2000 but you don't like that message now? Hope, Help, what’s the difference? Bush was offering hope and became the President, Hope for who and what??? The religious right? Kerry is offering Help, Help for who??? The Middle Class, who is the Middle Class?
Would you rather pay to Jail criminals, the many tens of thousands of them each year and what it costs the system to police, jail, try them in court and maintain them in Prison? Than paying to change the child before they turn bad? I bet the government would save $$Millions$$ by having fewer criminals in prison and more of them working and contributing to society. But if we had fewer inmates in prison we would then need to retrain all those guards that had no one to watch and they would need to get private jobs instead of the high paying government jobs WE are paying them to do. I would rather shift the cost to make a better society than keeping inmates in prison because they had crappy parents that didn’t teach them any better.

summerlove
07-30-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
Come on Summerlove you are better than this. Your comments usually reflect the thought's of the last of that dying breed of thoughtfull Democrats. This is not up to your quality.
I would never put down Kerry's navel service. Nor would I act like flying fighters in the air national gaurd during the Vietnam war era was a chicken thing to do, here or overseas.
The fact of the matter is Bush was nowhere to be found for 9 months in '72-'73. He won't say where he was, the DOD says the records were "destroyed", and he apparantly never showed up to fulfill his military obligation. There is certainly a question of "Service to one's Country" and I argue that Mr. Kerry's service was far more respectable than that of the sitting President.
Why won't Bush just say where he was instead of continue to refuse to address the issue. Many American's want to know. If his absence was legitimate, then fine. I dare to guess it was far more nefarious than that!:confused:
Am I supporting Kerry - of course I am! I am of the opinion that the current administration is arrogant and it's either their way or your wrong! Iraq is a perfect example of that. I feel so sorry for the families that have lost loved ones as a consequence of this war and their continued failure in maintaining the peace and through reconstruction.
Yea, "Mission Accomplished" all right....:yuk:

summerlove
07-30-2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
Seems that a lot a people have already forgotten that Bush used a similar slogan in 2000. He said Hope is on the way. I think it's the same message, so what, you liked the message before in 2000 but you don't like that message now?
I think it was a parody on the Bush campaign...:rolleyes:

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
Would you rather pay to Jail criminals, the many tens of thousands of them each year and what it costs the system to police, jail, try them in court and maintain them in Prison? Than paying to change the child before they turn bad? I bet the government would save $$Millions$$ by having fewer criminals in prison and more of them working and contributing to society.
Sounds nice...... but it doesn't work. This type of social engineering would not be required (and does not work regardless) if people had real moral values and responsibility. THAT is the problem. People don't take responsibility for themselves or their offspring. They don't provide a moral compass so it is OK to rob cheat or steal.
And NO I'm not a member of the religious right. I don't belong to or practice any religion... but it is VERY clear to me where the problem is... and GOVERNMENT can't fix it.

summerlove
07-30-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
Would you rather pay to Jail criminals, the many tens of thousands of them each year and what it costs the system to police, jail, try them in court and maintain them in Prison? Than paying to change the child before they turn bad? I bet the government would save $$Millions$$ by having fewer criminals in prison and more of them working and contributing to society.
oh, and one more thing, Bush pushed and succeeded in sharply reducing the No Child Left Behind program because it was too costly...hmmm.

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
oh, and one more thing, Bush pushed and succeeded in sharply reducing the No Child Left Behind program because it was too costly...hmmm.
Maybe that's because it appears to have no effect on those issues... like money down a rathole.

eliminatedsprinter
07-30-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
oh, and one more thing, Bush pushed and succeeded in sharply reducing the No Child Left Behind program because it was too costly...hmmm.
It's funny. Every spending program Bush has proposed has been Hammered by the Dems for not being enough. Yet they Hammer him for the deficit. Go figure........

Debbolas
07-30-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
Would you rather pay to Jail criminals, the many tens of thousands of them each year and what it costs the system to police, jail, try them in court and maintain them in Prison? Than paying to change the child before they turn bad? I bet the government would save $$Millions$$ by having fewer criminals in prison and more of them working and contributing to society. But if we had fewer inmates in prison we would then need to retrain all those guards that had no one to watch and they would need to get private jobs instead of the high paying government jobs WE are paying them to do. I would rather shift the cost to make a better society than keeping inmates in prison because they had crappy parents that didn’t teach them any better.
This is a nice thought, that we could somehow change children living in a bad environment to keep them from becoming criminals. Working with Title One kids, I have seen some kids come from awful homes and rise above it to suceed. They are few and far between. Most of these kids value what their drug adicted, gang banger parents value. Money, cars, cool clothes and acting tough. Even if you catch them at an early age, and offer an alternative to their lifestyle.They may not accept it. Your alternative involves a lot of hard work, as compared to their parents way. Sometimes we can catch them. Other days it is painful to watch because you just know this kid is going to grow up and knock over a 7-11 someday. But you can only do so much.
Debbolas<--------------fighting the good fight;)
Summerlove I love ya, but Bush is enforcing the No Child Left Behind Act. He is requiring better creditials from teachers and my Title One group is receiving training this fall. Title One is part of the No Child Left Behind Act. We receive our funding from the federal goverment based on the amount of free and reduced lunch students at our school.

Ducatista
07-30-2004, 01:02 PM
Click here (http://www.swiftvets.com/) if you want some more info on Kerry's combat service............
I heard the same interview Havasu Cig, I really like Michael Savage. He is one of the few who understand what is happening to our free America.

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 01:05 PM
Deb......... there is no FREE LUNCH!!!!! LOL...
My sister was a headstart teacher for about 30 years. She said it was depressing because it was nearly impossible to make much difference since when the kids went home they were with parents that provide no role model, or moral guidance (or the wrong kind) whatsoever.

eliminatedsprinter
07-30-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
The fact of the matter is Bush was nowhere to be found for 9 months in '72-'73. He won't say where he was, the DOD says the records were "destroyed", and he apparantly never showed up to fulfill his military obligation. There is certainly a question of "Service to one's Country" and I argue that Mr. Kerry's service was far more respectable than that of the sitting President.
Why won't Bush just say where he was instead of continue to refuse to address the issue. Many American's want to know. If his absence was legitimate, then fine. I dare to guess it was far more nefarious than that!:confused:
Am I supporting Kerry - of course I am! I am of the opinion that the current administration is arrogant and it's either their way or your wrong! Iraq is a perfect example of that. I feel so sorry for the families that have lost loved ones as a consequence of this war and their continued failure in maintaining the peace and through reconstruction.
Yea, "Mission Accomplished" all right....:yuk:
The records of tens of thousands of our vets who served during Bush and Kerry's era were distroyed. As a result many vet's have had a hard time getting the sevices they needed (esp from the Clinton administratin who used every excuse to cut far more services to vets than any administration in U.S. history has). To use this as part of a conspiracy theory aginst Bush is not up to your usual intellectual standards. It reminds me of the "Clinton Chronicals" type of stuff that was going around in the 90s.

Debbolas
07-30-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Deb......... there is no FREE LUNCH!!!!! LOL...
My sister was a headstart teacher for about 30 years. She said it was depressing because it was nearly impossible to make much difference since when the kids went home they were with parents that provide no roll model, or moral guidance (or the wrong kind) whatsoever.
It is really difficult. Most of the kids I see have behavioral problems on top of reading problem. You can influence them all day, but then they go home to their parents. In my district we are trying to educate our parents, but only some of them take advantage of this.
The key is to find what makes this kid tick, then find a book that has that in it. If you can turn them on to reading, that is a huge help. The kids in my program with a strong family at home do the best. They learn quickly and graduate. I was so proud a few months ago, as a few of my Title One kids received honor awards at the Junior High ( I had them for 4th grade):D
All you can do is try................

summerlove
07-30-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
The records of tens of thousands of our vets who served during Bush and Kerry's era were distroyed. As a result many vet's have had a hard time getting the sevices they needed (esp from the Clinton administratin who used every excuse to cut far more services to vets than any administration in U.S. history has). To use this as part of a conspiracy theory aginst Bush is not up to your usual intellectual standards. It reminds me of the "Clinton Chronicals" type of stuff that was going around in the 90s.
I'll buy the destroyed records theory, but then I have to ask myself, "Why does he continue to dodge the question of his presence during those 9 months away from active duty"? Sounds to me like he may be hiding something? I dunno....:confused:

DEAL BROTHER
07-30-2004, 01:22 PM
The Democrats continue to demean service in the National Guard at their own peril? You stay this course and you are going to be busted on it hard. So keep it up. I know many fine people in the National Guard who are quite offended that their service to our country is being characterized as being unimportant.:yuk:

gnarley
07-30-2004, 01:40 PM
If we didn't pay for social programs we would pay for something else, like more jails and cops, and pay to support them while incarcerated. I wouldn't want to imagine how much worse it would be without social programs. One way or another we pay for something whether we like it or not.
I would still rather see more money spent to help those that need it than support those in jail. In fact if you do time you should be working for your cell and food and having the guard watch you and any other expense it takes to keep you there and us safe. Every friggen Jail and prison in the country should have jobs for the criminals who are there so they pay their own way not US! That would sure piss off the ACLU!
Then we could truly pay to support the kids who need help and don't get it from the parents without effecting taxes.

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 01:44 PM
OOPS! I thought I was on the HOT Boat Forum.
Moe

summerlove
07-30-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by DEAL BROTHER
The Democrats continue to demean service in the National Guard at their own peril? You stay this course and you are going to be busted on it hard. So keep it up. I know many fine people in the National Guard who are quite offended that their service to our country is being characterized as being unimportant.:yuk:
I assume that comment is directed at me:confused: . I never said the National Guard was a bad thing. In fact, I fully support the NG as I have had a number of family members in their service over the years.
Please go back and read my comments because I never said what you implied I said. I did say he snorted coke, because it's a known fact and admission. I do want to know where he was during those 9 months though.

summerlove
07-30-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Moe_Havi
OOPS! I thought I was on the HOT Boat Forum.
Moe
You can only talk boats sooo much ya know! Good to see you - it's been awhile!;)

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 01:49 PM
How bout' them new box anchors?
Moe

summerlove
07-30-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Moe_Havi
How bout' them new box anchors?
Moe
You know what, I have not been a big fan of the box anchor. I have one and use it, buut have not been over joyed with it's performance. However, while at Lake Powell earlier this month, I had the anchor out with about 50' of feed on it and I have to say it dug in and held very well and we had one night with 20-25 mph winds driving right at it and the last night we had (guessing) 30-35 mph winds and 2' rollers and the boat never moved.
I have changed my opinion.
BTW, notice Mandelon starts this thread and then bails out! Way to go....;)

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
You can only talk boats sooo much ya know! Good to see you - it's been awhile!;)
Same here. I saw your pics of Powell and it looks like an awsome time. I'm going back next year, water or no water.
Moe

eliminatedsprinter
07-30-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
I'll buy the destroyed records theory, but then I have to ask myself, "Why does he continue to dodge the question of his presence during those 9 months away from active duty"? Sounds to me like he may be hiding something? I dunno....:confused:
Answer....
He did answer it once. It didn't make big headlines. Did you not hear it, or did you just not find his answer good enough? Regardless, it would be both bad stratagy and bad form for him to allow his re election effort to become a my military vs your military record affiar...Look, Kerry and Bush are not running for soldier of the year. If they were Bush would be smart to avoid talking about his service since he has no medals etc and Kerry does.. However, they are running agianst each other to be the worlds most powerfull politician. Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that Kerry and his people are trying so hard to obfuscate his Senate voting record?

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
You know what, I have not been a big fan of the box anchor. I have one and use it, buut have not been over joyed with it's performance. However, while at Lake Powell earlier this month, I had the anchor out with about 50' of feed on it and I have to say it dug in and held very well and we had one night with 20-25 mph winds driving right at it and the last night we had (guessing) 30-35 mph winds and 2' rollers and the boat never moved.
I have changed my opinion.
BTW, notice Mandelon starts this thread and then bails out! Way to go....;)
I bought one before the Cottonwood trip on Mem. Day (you know the one) and they said the small one would hold up to 28 feet or something but I had slipping with the winds. I have a 23 Chap. I don't want to go bigger because it won't fit in the anchor locker but I want it to hold. It has been good since then.

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 01:57 PM
OOPS! I thought I was on the HOT Boat Forum.
Moe

summerlove
07-30-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
Answer....
He did answer it once. It didn't make big headlines. Did you not hear it, or did you just not find his answer good enough? Regardless, it would be both bad stratagy and bad form for him to allow his re election effort to become a my military vs your military record affiar...Look, Kerry and Bush are not running for soldier of the year. If they were Bush would be smart to avoid talking about his service since he has no medals etc and Kerry does.. However, they are running agianst each other to be the worlds most powerfull politician. Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that Kerry's people are trying so hard to hide his Senate voting record?
I never heard it.....if it was so great, you'd think he'd promote it...::confused:

summerlove
07-30-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Moe_Havi
I bought one before the Cottonwood trip on Mem. Day (you know the one) and they said the small one would hold up to 28 feet or something but I had slipping with the winds. I have a 23 Chap. I don't want to go bigger because it won't fit in the anchor locker but I want it to hold. It has been good since then.
The trick with the box, as I understand it, is that it requires alot of lead, much more than a traditional anchor. I did that this time out and voila, it worked fine and like I said, the breeze was relatively brisk!

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
Answer....
He did answer it once. It didn't make big headlines. Did you not hear it, or did you just not find his answer good enough? Regardless, it would be both bad stratagy and bad form for him to allow his re election effort to become a my military vs your military record affiar...Look, Kerry and Bush are not running for soldier of the year. If they were Bush would be smart to avoid talking about his service since he has no medals etc and Kerry does.. However, they are running agianst each other to be the worlds most powerfull politician. Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that Kerry and his people are trying so hard to obfuscate his Senate voting record?
Obfuscate? That's it! I'm going over to the NFL forums. HOW BOUT DEM COWBOYS!!!

Debbolas
07-30-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
If we didn't pay for social programs we would pay for something else, like more jails and cops, and pay to support them while incarcerated. I wouldn't want to imagine how much worse it would be without social programs. One way or another we pay for something whether we like it or not.
I would still rather see more money spent to help those that need it than support those in jail. In fact if you do time you should be working for your cell and food and having the guard watch you and any other expense it takes to keep you there and us safe. Every friggen Jail and prison in the country should have jobs for the criminals who are there so they pay their own way not US! That would sure piss off the ACLU!
Then we could truly pay to support the kids who need help and don't get it from the parents without effecting taxes.
:) This is a problem that you can't just throw money at and hope it goes away. It is a parenting problem...a values problem....a social problem......a character problem........

Dave C
07-30-2004, 02:06 PM
SL,
BTW those box anchors are too heavy ;) but they are good!.
Its funny how you hear all about W's missing records but the story about the pentagon finding W's records was back page news. Why is that?
ENOUGH ABOUT KERRY's three damn purple hearts. Great, Kerry did his duty and point scored for him. Thats all we hear about is those 3 purple hearts. Its about time the dems get someone who served rather than dodged. (i.e. Clinton)
Bush did his duty too. NG service is still service to his country.

eliminatedsprinter
07-30-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Moe_Havi
Obfuscate? That's it! I'm going over to the NFL forums. HOW BOUT DEM COWBOYS!!!
Why not just read the threds that intrest you the most?
Or do our brilliant debating skills just lure you in and force you to read these threds aginst your will.;)

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
Why not just read the threds that intrest you the most?
Or do our brilliant debating skills just lure you in and force you to read these threds aginst your will.;)
Yea, your debating skills make me want to write in Al Sharpton.
Moe

gnarley
07-30-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
I never heard it.....if it was so great, you'd think he'd promote it...::confused:
I don't think he wants to promote it, after all his record doesn't match up, so he'd rather see it slip away and go head to head with something he has up on Kerry, like 4 years experience in the oval office.
That’s my bet.
It isn't a race to see who the best soldier was, but who will best handle the job as President.

summerlove
07-30-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Dave C
SL,
Bush did his duty too. NG service is still service to his country.
OK, I agree with that.

eliminatedsprinter
07-30-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Moe_Havi
Yea, your debating skills make me want to write in Al Sharpton.
Moe
Ouch! That hurts! You better watch out, bub. I'm going to ask Summerlove to unite with me and fight your efforts to hyjack this thread. We will smoke you out and hunt you down and then go bipartisan on your a$$.;) :D :D
Right Summerlove!!??

gnarley
07-30-2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Debbolas
:) This is a problem that you can't just throw money at and hope it goes away. It is a parenting problem...a values problem....a social problem......a character problem........
I whole heartedly disagree.
Like we are fixing problems with cirminals by throwing money at them by keeping them in jail?
If there were more teachers to teach and better classrooms kids might just have a chance at doing better like a lot of us did when we grew up. Schools do have money but it doesn't go where it should! It goes to overhead and keeping to many bearucrats working not to the kids or teachers. When the teacher has little time to spend with each and every student that needs help and there are no after school programs available, kids fail! Sure parents need to do their part but if they are not and kids can get help through other programs it will keep some off the street and out of jail.
Again, I would rather pay to help the kids and give them a chance than feed a criminal!

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
I whole heartedly disagree.
Like we are fixing problems with cirminals by throwing money at them by keeping them in jail?
Again, I would rather pay to help the kids and give them a chance than feed a criminal!
I simply re-post what I posted earlier, the argument doesn't work.
Sounds nice...... but it doesn't work. This type of social engineering would not be required (and does not work regardless) if people had real moral values and responsibility. THAT is the problem. People don't take responsibility for themselves or their offspring. They don't provide a moral compass so it is OK to rob cheat or steal.
And NO I'm not a member of the religious right. I don't belong to or practice any religion... but it is VERY clear to me where the problem is... and GOVERNMENT can't fix it.

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 02:42 PM
Your right Eliminated. Screw Big AL. Back to box anchors. I can only dip my toe into the political cesspool a little at a time bofore going back to the safety of idle boating bullsh#t. Trivia? What's a davit?
Moe

summerlove
07-30-2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
Ouch! That hurts! You better watch out, bub. I'm going to ask Summerlove to unite with me and fight your efforts to hyjack this thread. We will smoke you out and hunt you down and then go bipartisan on your a$$.;) :D :D
Right Summerlove!!??
Uh, no....;) Actually, I want to know what happended to Mandy. Did his own thread get too hot for him! BTW, this thread is dead!

summerlove
07-30-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
Again, I would rather pay to help the kids and give them a chance than feed a criminal!
I'm on Deb's side on this one - very family values. But, I do agree with the above 100%.

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
Ouch! That hurts! You better watch out, bub. I'm going to ask Summerlove to unite with me and fight your efforts to hyjack this thread. We will smoke you out and hunt you down and then go bipartisan on your a$$.;) :D :D
Right Summerlove!!??
Right Summerlove!!??
Ah? I think it's Left Summerlove? LOL

summerlove
07-30-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Moe_Havi
Your right Eliminated. Screw Big AL. Back to box anchors. I can only dip my toe into the political cesspool a little at a time bofore going back to the safety of idle boating bullsh#t. Trivia? What's a davit?
Moe
This is a davit...(holding the boat)
http://www.davitmaster.com/1_homeImages/2_boatdavitimg.jpg

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Moe_Havi
. Trivia? What's a davit?
Moe
It is a gizmo used to hang and hoist boats or lifeboats off of a larger boat or ship...
or for Landlubbers it is used for suspended scaffolding for window washing rigs...
And if you need a lifeboat.... HELP IS ON THE WAY......:p (via the davit)

summerlove
07-30-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
And if you need a lifeboat.... HELP IS ON THE WAY......:p (via the davit)
HA-HA-HA - ;) Nice job Doc!

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
HA-HA-HA - ;) Nice job Doc! :D

Moe_Havi
07-30-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
This is a davit...(holding the boat)
http://www.davitmaster.com/1_homeImages/2_boatdavitimg.jpg
"Let me just dip into my photo archive that I keep at my fingertips and pull up a picture of a davit. That will show him."
We all have way too much time on our hands.
Moe

summerlove
07-30-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Moe_Havi
"Let me just dip into my photo archive that I keep at my fingertips and pull up a picture of a davit. That will show him."
We all have way too much time on our hands.
Moe
it's called google....:)

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
it's called google....:)
Google rocks.....;)

eliminatedsprinter
07-30-2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Mandelon
What did you think of Kerry's speech? A bit hypocritical, but a lot of nice ideas....
So how do you raise wages, help the poor, add 40,000 enlistees to the military, gain world wide respect and raise internal security and pay down the debt all at once???? :rolleyes:
Back to the subject at hand.
Kerry can't do what he says he will and he knows it.
There was only one great speech in this convention (that's one more than at the last one) and that was Barrac Obama's. That entire speech was full on Heresy to that crowed in boston, yet he got a huge ovation, because it was so well delivered. I salute him. Aside from the part promoting Kerry (a small part of the message) that speech was the same type of message, that I have been hearing Condi Rice say for years. I hope he keeps true to the philosophy he expounded in his speech and he can perhaps elevate his party up to it as well. If he means what he said about our country, I think he has a chance of helping his party and our country, esp since I understand he has a near Condi Rice like IQ /intellect and speaking skills that are at least as good as Bill Clinton's.

gnarley
07-30-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
I'm on Deb's side on this one - very family values. But, I do agree with the above 100%.
I didn't realize it was her against me? :confused: You can’t think for yourself and take your own side?
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
I simply re-post what I posted earlier, the argument doesn't work.
Sounds nice...... but it doesn't work. This type of social engineering would not be required (and does not work regardless) if people had real moral values and responsibility. THAT is the problem. People don't take responsibility for themselves or their offspring. They don't provide a moral compass so it is OK to rob cheat or steal.
And NO I'm not a member of the religious right. I don't belong to or practice any religion... but it is VERY clear to me where the problem is... and GOVERNMENT can't fix it.
If it didn't work then why would Bush start his program "No Child Left Behind"?
Post statistics to back up your statement, otherwise it is just rhetoric and a biased opinion. Morals and values start at a young age and schools don’t have time to teach them.
So given a choice would you
A. Pay to keep criminals in prison and build more prisons to hold them and hire more guards to watch them.
OR
B. Pay to educate and teach young children properly and instill morals and values that may not be taught at home.
There is no C. and there are no other choices.

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
I didn't realize it was her against me? :confused: You can’t think for your own and take your own side?
If it didn't work then why would Bush start his program "No Child Left Behind"?
Post statistics to back up your statement, otherwise it is just rhetoric and a biased opinion. Morals and values start at a young age and schools don’t have time to teach them.
So given a choice would you
A. Pay to keep criminals in prison and build more prisons to hold them and hire more guards to watch them.
OR
B. Pay to educate and teach young children properly and instill morals and values that may not be taught at home.
There is no C. and there are no other choices.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you posted your statement... YOU BACK IT UP!
YOU show that the B I L L I O N S of dollars spent on education by the Federal Government has kept a single person out of prison. I don't think you can.

NuckinFutz
07-30-2004, 04:00 PM
Paying more money for education is not going to keep kids from jail. I've been an officer for enough years to know that education doesn't keep you on the straight and narrow. Case in point, my son has two kids in his class, one boy and one girl. Both of these two are near genious at scholastics and are currently given plenty of opportunity to expand their knowledge. The problem is both of these kids have divorced parents that are more into drugs than they are their own children. The town I live in has an unnending amount of funding for a community center, but these kids only go there to smoke and plan their next party. My kid isn't the most gifted as far as bookwork is concerned, but knows right from wrong, good from bad and treats people with respect. All the money in the world can't teach kids that. The problem with jail is most criminals only get their hands slapped and don't have to pay for the crime they commit. It is attorneys like John Edwards who don't want criminals to pay for crimes they commit. Less money would be needed for criminals if the penalties for the crimes were enforced by judges and not rediculosly faught by liberal attorneys. Reminds me of a fellow officer I watched get murdered in 1993, and then got to watch the judge cry as he sentenced the worthless punk who shot him to actually spend some time in jail. By the way, both kids who were involved in the shooting are now free, boy that makes you feel good. A liberal judge by the way!

gnarley
07-30-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, you posted your statement... YOU BACK IT UP!
YOU show that the B I L L I O N S of dollars spent on education by the Federal Government has kept a single person out of prison. I don't think you can.
DE, I never said what would happen, you have, you said it won't work, I never said it would or wouldn't. I then asked if you, or (anyone) if you could choose what would you choose? Try to slow down and read a little slower, if you miss key words you will not understand the statement. I never made a claim and you have and I respectfully asked you to back it up.
Originally posted by gnarley:
Would you rather pay to Jail criminals, the many tens of thousands of them each year and what it costs the system to police, jail, try them in court and maintain them in Prison? Than paying to change the child before they turn bad? I bet the government would save $$Millions$$ by having fewer criminals in prison and more of them working and contributing to society.

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 04:02 PM
Report: U.S. No. 1 in school spending
Test scores fall in middle of the pack
Tuesday, September 16, 2003 Posted: 1:31 PM EDT (1731 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States spends more public and private money on education than other major countries, but its performance doesn't measure up in areas ranging from high-school graduation rates to test scores in math, reading and science, a new report shows.
"There are countries which don't get the bang for the bucks, and the U.S. is one of them," said Barry McGaw, education director for the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which produced the annual review of industrialized nations.
The United States spent $10,240 per student from elementary school through college in 2000, according to the report. The average was $6,361 among more than 25 nations.
The range stretched from less than $3,000 per student in Turkey, Mexico, the Slovak Republic and Poland to more than $8,000 per student in Denmark, Norway, Austria and Switzerland.
The report cited Australia, Finland, Ireland, Korea and the United Kingdom as examples of OECD nations that have moderate spending on primary and lower secondary education but high levels of performance by 15-year-olds in key subject areas.
As for the United States, it finished in the middle of the pack in its 15-year-olds' performance on math, reading and science in 2000, and its high-school graduation rate was below the international average in 2001 -- figures highlighted by Education Secretary Rod Paige.
The country fared better in reading literacy among fourth-graders, where it finished among the top scorers in 2001. But the declining performance as students grow older served as a warning to the nation, Paige said.
"These results highlight an extremely important truth about our educational system: I think we have become complacent, self-satisfied and often lacking the will to do better," Paige said.
International benchmarks
Appropriate spending has emerged as a key political issue this year as the nation's schools deal with federal reforms. The No Child Left Behind law demands better performance from students and teachers, particularly in low-income districts, but critics say Republican leaders in Congress have spent too little on the effort.
The report, released Tuesday, sets international benchmarks and identifies areas for improvement.
Based on educational level, the report says the United States spends the most on higher education for every student and is a leading spender on primary and secondary education.
Paige said the nation must fill the gap between it and other countries, and bridge another between students succeeding in American public schools and those falling behind. Within that promising fourth-grade reading showing in the United States, Paige said, is a revealing number: the higher the percentage of poor students, the lower the average score.
"There's no such thing as a 'typical' fourth-grader," Paige said. "We want to go to each fourth-grader. We need to see who needs the help."
The new federal law requires states to chart adequate yearly progress -- not just for a school's overall population, but for groups such as minorities and students who speak little English. Sanctions grow by the year for schools receiving low-income aid that don't improve enough. Consequences range from letting students transfer to a better school within their districts to handing control of a poor-performing school to the state.
"No other country is imposing such a rigorous requirement on its schools," McGaw said.
But from school boards to Congress, growing numbers of leaders say the federal government isn't committing enough money to the task. States must, for example, expand their standardized testing and put a highly qualified teacher in every core class by 2005-06.
Federal education spending has grown by $11 billion since President Bush took office, Paige said, but that includes spending beyond the first 12 grades. Even increased money for elementary and secondary education doesn't cover the law's sweeping expenses, said David Shreve of the National Conference of State Legislatures.
"You can't just mandate that things happen and then not follow up with the resources to make it happen," said Shreve, senior director for the conference's education committee.
Comparisons of spending among countries is difficult, he added, because the systems vary widely.
Looks like we have the highest spending in the WORLD for education... .has that stopped the prison population from climbing? Notice below.......
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/corrtyp.gif
If there is a coorelation, by my view, we need to be spending LESS on education. Seems the more we spend, the more the prisons fill up...
Does that make sense... no. Either does your argument.

gnarley
07-30-2004, 04:36 PM
DE, it's a reasonable report but I would bet full of holes. I have no doubt we DUMP money into schools but the kids or teachers don't get it! As in an earlier post below.
Originally posted by gnarley
Schools do have money but it doesn't go where it should! It goes to overhead and keeping to many bearucrats working not to the kids or teachers.
Again, I would rather pay to help the kids and give them a chance than feed a criminal!
So DE given a choice would you
A. Pay to keep criminals in prison and build more prisons to hold them and hire more guards to watch them.
OR
B. Pay to educate and teach young children properly and instill morals and values that may not be taught at home.
There is no C. and there are no other choices. Can you answer the question?

Debbolas
07-30-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
I whole heartedly disagree.
Like we are fixing problems with cirminals by throwing money at them by keeping them in jail?
If there were more teachers to teach and better classrooms kids might just have a chance at doing better like a lot of us did when we grew up. Schools do have money but it doesn't go where it should! It goes to overhead and keeping to many bearucrats working not to the kids or teachers. When the teacher has little time to spend with each and every student that needs help and there are no after school programs available, kids fail! Sure parents need to do their part but if they are not and kids can get help through other programs it will keep some off the street and out of jail.
Again, I would rather pay to help the kids and give them a chance than feed a criminal!
No, we are not fixing problems by keeping criminals in jail, that is not what jail is for! We are keeping our society safe!!
Where do you get your school money distribution information?
Each district has their own budget. Most of their money comes from the State NOT the Federal Goverment. Our District was very good with it's money this past year so we did not have to lay off any teachers, some other districts weren't so lucky and had to lay off teachers, librarians and aids.
Speaking from experience Teachers and Schools can only do so much! We do not impress these kids anymore (the ones that need help anyways) They are impressed by the big money basketball players and Rap Singers. Our district has a 20 to one policy in our grades K-3rd. That a pretty good size class for one on one teaching.
You just can't throw money at this problem. IMO
:rolleyes:
B. Pay to educate and teach young children properly and instill morals and values that may not be taught at home
Sweetheart, you can pay to educate and teach children, but there is no way we can or should instill morals into these children. How would we do that? Whose morals? Which religion?
It's a nice idea, but totally impractical................

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
DE, it's a reasonable report but I would bet full of holes. I have no doubt we DUMP money into schools but the kids or teachers don't get it! As in an earlier post below.
So DE given a choice would you
A. Pay to keep criminals in prison and build more prisons to hold them and hire more guards to watch them.
OR
B. Pay to educate and teach young children properly and instill morals and values that may not be taught at home.
There is no C. and there are no other choices. Can you answer the question?
You didn't even look at that post. There is a C. It is BOTH of the above...
I don't believe I could have been more clear. So if you don't get it: your answer. C. You are spending ridiculous amounts of money on BOTH right now. Oh did I say the answer is C?
We spend more per capita on education than any other country in the WORLD. It seems to have no effect on crime, or student performance. Seems like we will be paying for BOTH now doesn't it.
ONE MORE TIME:
There is obviously NO coorelation between throwing money at education and either:
Student Performance or;
Crime.
Get it? Of course not........:rolleyes:

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Debbolas
No, we are not fixing problems by keeping criminals in jail, that is not what jail is for! We are keeping our society safe!!
Most of their money comes from the State NOT the Federal Goverment.
You just can't throw money at this problem. IMO
:rolleyes:
Sweetheart, you can pay to educate and teach children, but there is no way we can or should instill morals into these children. How would we do that? Whose morals? Which religion?
It's a nice idea, but totally impractical................
Good post Deb!
1 Jail is to punish criminal behavior... not rehabilitate... that is a pipe dream.
2. WTF does the Federal Government have anything to do with funding local schools? Should be nothing, but the pork politicians have done it to buy votes. Just like the 10000 cops that Clinton supposedly put on the street. PORK. This kind of PORK means that Washington and more importantly those providing it (dem or rep) control constituencies...
3. You made my points in my other posts. It isn't about education, its about MORALS...........
But He'll never get it Deb...

Debbolas
07-30-2004, 05:54 PM
The federal goverment funds some of our programs like Title One, but the majority of school funding comes from the State.
That is why all the schools were freaking out because the State couldn't balance the budget and they weren't getting the previous money they were promised.
I love working for my school, but it is not an efficent business. They HAVE to spend all the money they get each year, they CAN NOT save anything. If they don't spend all their money, they get less the next year.
Certain funds are earmarked for certain programs, but you know sometimes Title One money ends up buying computers for the school or paying a teacher with a masters degree to run the Title one program.

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
DE, it's a reasonable report but I would bet full of holes. I have no doubt we DUMP money into schools but the kids or teachers don't get it! As in an earlier post below.
And by the way... remember goose and gander....... PROVE IT"S FULL OF HOLES...:rolleyes:

gnarley
07-30-2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
And by the way... remember goose and gander....... PROVE IT"S FULL OF HOLES...:rolleyes:
What do you like pissing matches? Key words again, read carefully. I didn't say it was, I said “I bet full of holes”. That is my opinion. If you talk in absolutes back them up. When I talk in absolutes I will back them up with supporting facts.
I don't have the time to look for info to support feelings why or to see who is a better debater, frankly I could care less. For almost every study ever done there is typically another one to counter the opinion of the other study; hasn’t it just about always been that way?
Goose/Gander that’s your thing if you state a fact back it up. I did not state facts and never claimed to, just some opinions based on principals or first hand knowledge that shape my opinion, that’s what most people seem to do here.
You couldn't even answer a simple question, A or B given the choice, even if it was hypothetical. There was no C.
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
It's funny. Every spending program Bush has proposed has been Hammered by the Dems for not being enough. Yet they Hammer him for the deficit. Go figure........
Just like the money being poured into Iraq, another rat hole. How much have we spent on that rat hole so far? Money that would have been better spent here. And how much more will we dump down that rat hole before we leave? I think Bush is getting hammered due to the spending over there, isn’t that what has really caused the current deficit?
Deb, thanks you have brought up some good points. I don't know how the money is allocated for schools but I do hear my neighbors complain all the time about how it is spent. One of them is a principal and another is an administrator. I think if we had less administrators and bureaucrats in school districts and less red tape kids could get a better education if the money was spent on education instead of administration.
When I spoke of morals I was referring to right and wrong, truth and lies, good and bad. Is that so difficult to teach?
The point of this was if you had a choice wouldn’t you rather pay to give kids a better education?

summerlove
07-30-2004, 09:23 PM
You guys and dolls still at this? I left work at about 4:45, drove and 1 and one half hours hoje due to traffic:yuk: , took my kids to dinner, watched the padres get their asses handed to them, fixed my 'puter, and we're still fighitng over this? Come on Gnarly, you know your wrong, just admit it and go to bed!;)

Dr. Eagle
07-30-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
When I spoke of morals I was referring to right and wrong, truth and lies, good and bad. Is that so difficult to teach?
The point of this was if you had a choice wouldn’t you rather pay to give kids a better education?
Point A
Same morals I am talking about. I am not a religious person at all. Those morals are taught by the parents and family, not the schools.
Point B
Point is you are already paying too much for each. You don't have a choice to pay for one over the other... even in a hypothetical argument.
I am done for the day.... hasta la vista.
Ahhh yes and " Help is on the way"...

gnarley
07-30-2004, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by summerlove
You guys and dolls still at this? I left work at about 4:45, drove and 1 and one half hours hoje due to traffic:yuk: , took my kids to dinner, watched the padres get their asses handed to them, fixed my 'puter, and we're still fighitng over this? Come on Gnarly, you know your wrong, just admit it and go to bed!;)
Yeah I came back just like you :wink: I hope you had a good night! What am I wrong about? I think it’s a difference of opinion, after all we all have the right to think what we want even if we don't agree, and even if a majority is against you it still doesn't mean they are right, even if they can post some supporting bias. We all have the right to our opinions in this great country, even if we choose to disagree and I can choose to disagree and not be hateful. :)

Debbolas
07-31-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by gnarley
Deb, thanks you have brought up some good points. I don't know how the money is allocated for schools but I do hear my neighbors complain all the time about how it is spent. One of them is a principal and another is an administrator. I think if we had less administrators and bureaucrats in school districts and less red tape kids could get a better education if the money was spent on education instead of administration.
When I spoke of morals I was referring to right and wrong, truth and lies, good and bad. Is that so difficult to teach?
The point of this was if you had a choice wouldn’t you rather pay to give kids a better education?
The administrators are there to deal with all the paperwork so the teachers can teach the kids.
Morals, well you can teach your version of right and wrong. Hard for them to understand when it conflicts with their family life.
It's not about paying to have children get a better education. The parents have to care. It's just that simple. If the parents don't care, the child doesn't care and school does not serve it's purpose.
Yeah I came back just like you I hope you had a good night! What am I wrong about? I think it’s a difference of opinion, after all we all have the right to think what we want even if we don't agree, and even if a majority is against you it still doesn't mean they are right, even if they can post some supporting bias. We all have the right to our opinions in this great country, even if we choose to disagree and I can choose to disagree and not be hateful.
I agree, we can agree to disagree....It's nice to debate some issues without people flying off the handle and calling names:D
(my oldest is coming home from debate camp this morning:D )
Have a great day!
Deb:D

Dr. Eagle
07-31-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Debbolas
I agree, we can agree to disagree....It's nice to debate some issues without people flying off the handle and calling names:D
(my oldest is coming home from debate camp this morning:D )Deb:D
What U talkin bout? Why that **** and **** that too and ***** (5 letter word) so there!... J/K
Actually it was a good exchange. Gnarly has good intentions and makes some good points. I think we agree to disagree... but I think that we agree that HOW the money is spent is more important or just as important as HOW MUCH is spent.
Regardless... we is where we is and reality is just that... real. And we really don't have the luxury of paying $2 in education to save $4 in prison costs... we get to pay $6.... :(