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View Full Version : New Noise Laws in AZ? WTF???



Essex502
08-02-2004, 08:19 AM
We were launching at the Havasu Marina on Friday and the gentleman that walked up to the truck window while I was waiting to launch asked me: "Is your boat loud?" I said no...I comply with the 88 dB-A law in CA and should pass AZ too. He said that there was a new noise law in AZ passed on Memorial Day (??) and due to go into effect on September 1st but it was being enforced in the Marina now. HE claimed the law was "86 decibles". Didn't know what the test was or how it was performed. One of our friends was told not to come back to the marina because his boat was too loud - stock HP525.
Now I have been trying to keep up with the changes in the noise laws but this is the first I have heard from ANY SOURCE about a new law in AZ let alone at 86 decibles. I think this guy was full of $hit but wanted other input from anybody else who may have heard something about a new law. As far as I know the existing law is 86 db-A using the SAE J34 test. As I understand the J34 test is a shoreline (50' away) test which would be nearly impossible to administer effectly and fairly inside the Havasu Marina due to the nature of the marina design.
New law? I call Bull$hit on this one...I think this may be new harrassment of the performance boaters by the marina.

RiverDave
08-02-2004, 08:22 AM
I'm not sure about the dates, but he's not full of shit..
It's in effect as of right now down in Parker.
RD

HavasuDreamin'
08-02-2004, 08:24 AM
New law probably not.............new ordinance in that area? Who knows? :confused:

Essex502
08-02-2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by RiverDave
I'm not sure about the dates, but he's not full of shit..
It's in effect as of right now down in Parker.
RD
The existing law is 86 dB-A at 50' at fulll throttle which might be what is being enforced.
But...with walls like the marina ramp has it can't be reasonable to test at the waterline.

Toomstone
08-02-2004, 08:36 AM
havasu marina hates loud boats anyway. in all the havasu marina threads people talk about getting kicked out because of how loud there boat was. so they may be telling people not to come back just because they think its to loud even though it may be under the limit.

Ducatista
08-02-2004, 08:40 AM
Gee, now the marina is picking on the small boats too! They have us (preformance boaters)all by the balls with the noise regulations, and they are just the start. It will soon be just like that everywhere you launch. Plan on some serious exhaust mods soon if you want to hit the lakes & rivers, because it's not far off.:(

don johnson
08-02-2004, 08:46 AM
Was pulled over in Parker 4 weeks ago and told that my boat was excessively loud and did not conform to the new Arizona 86 decibels law. This was straight from the Sheriff. The Sheriff was a real nice guy and let me go with a warning. However, I now run with my mufflers on whenever I see a Sheriff....
I was also asked not to come back to the Havasu Marina but the grumpy old man...
I have a friend that is a Sheriff in Havasu and he took a decibel reading on my boat at idle with mufflers on and it was 92 decibels so this new law is very hard to conform with high HP motors

Boatcop
08-02-2004, 08:48 AM
No new noise law. It's been 86 db @ 50' since 1974.

KACHINA KEN
08-02-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Essex502
New law? I call Bull$hit on this one...I think this may be new harrassment of the performance boaters by the marina.
This should be no surprise to you, the owner is legendary for being a prick to the hand that feeds him, worst type of business owner IMO.

don johnson
08-02-2004, 09:06 AM
Hi Alan,
Interesting that the law has been in effect since 1974.
I assume there is pressure on enforcing it more diligentily now? Reason I say that is I run with an number of big HP boaters and until this past year none of us had been questioned. Now all of us have been politely reminded by law enforcement of the law. We are all searching for products that will muffle sound. However, in big Supercharged motors there are not many options....
For example I have Teague switchable mufflers that do a decent job at low RPM. However, at higher RPM's when the blowers are in boost the muffler flapper is deactivated as it creates too much backpressure in the motor and can damage the motor real fast...
I am reseaching other options but they all seem to have the same features, good sound deadening at low RPM but they must be deactivated at higher RPM's on blower motors.
Alan, I have attached a picture of my boat. If you happen to remember seeing it go by did you feel it was flagarently or moderately loud?
Take Care,
Don

Essex502
08-02-2004, 09:53 AM
Thanks Alan for the confirmation. That means that the existing law is the 86 dB-A maximum as determined by the SAE J34 test which is done at 50' and NOT at idle. SO....having said that...HOW IN HELL CAN THEY SAY ANY BOAT IS OVER THE LIMIT IF NOT TESTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE J34 STANDARD. I GUARANTEE THIS IS NOT HAPPENING IN THE MARINA. They are being completely arbitrary in deciding which boat passes or fails.

THOR
08-02-2004, 09:58 AM
Not at idle? What the hell does that mean? 2000 rpm? 3000 rpm? what? Mine is quiet at idle then gets louder like many others. How exactly is the test performed?

Essex502
08-02-2004, 10:09 AM
It means that at 50' at any throttle position up to WOT. That's why CA moved to the new SAE J2005 noise test requirement ot make it easier to administer the test procedure.
From a Stanford University research paper:
"The sound intensity varies roughly as the inverse square of the distance from the source. This means that for each doubling of the distance, we expect a 6db reduction in the noise level. "
This means that a boat that is 100dB-A at idle at a distance of 3' will be less than 86dB-A at 50'. No two ways about it.
The Marina is again arbitrarily rejecting performance boaters.

Essex502
08-02-2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by THOR
Not at idle? What the hell does that mean? 2000 rpm? 3000 rpm? what? Mine is quiet at idle then gets louder like many others. How exactly is the test performed?
I have a copy of the SAE J34 test procedure but not here in the office. I'll try to look it up tonight and post the procedure.

Ivan Dan
08-02-2004, 10:24 AM
I'm just curious why ANY of you guys would still use the Havasu Marina? We all have read 100's of posts on here about how much of a dick the owner/manager is so why bother? You couldn't pay me money to launch there (though they probably wouldn't let me because my boat would be too loud). I would never give that jackass a single penny of my money even if he was the last launch ramp in town. I would rather drive to Cat Tail Cove, Needles or Topac before I went there.

Essex502
08-02-2004, 10:39 AM
Part of the reason is conveniece and quality of the ramp itself. Also, since the wife is still learning the finer arts of backing the trailer into the water it makes it much easier to launch and retrieve there. Windsor is all right on calm days but being unsheltered the afternoon windy and choppier days make it an interesting experience. Plus...we have been hit once by a rental pontoon boat there and it seems many of the rentals are launched there and we prefer to stay as far as possible away from them.
The fact of the matter is that the Marina is supposed to serve the boating public and it is not doing so. At least for the performance boating public.

Jdbuck
08-02-2004, 02:46 PM
I believe two issues ago in ***boat there was a lengthy article about the owner/manager of the Havasu Marina. The article talked alot about the unprofessionalism (lightly put term... azzhole type attitudes) of the owner of the marina when he tells boaters their boats are too loud. It was a very scathing article to say the least.
Keep an eye out in future issues because they said there would be further articles about the marina and its ownership.

MRS FLYIN VEE
08-02-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Jdbuck
I believe two issues ago in ***boat there was a lengthy article about the owner/manager of the Havasu Marina. The article talked alot about the unprofessionalism (lightly put term... azzhole type attitudes) of the owner of the marina when he tells boaters their boats are too loud. It was a very scathing article to say the least.
Keep an eye out in future issues because they said there would be further articles about the marina and its ownership.
I hope they interview people that have had bad experiences with that jerk..

BADBLOWN572
08-02-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by don johnson
did you feel it was flagarently or moderately loud?
Take Care,
Don
Don, I have seen you roll into & past Road Runner many times and I do not believe that your boat is excessively loud. Many boats out there that are quite louder. Your boat is definitely over the limit though. Unfortunately I do not make the rules or everything short of a fueler with zoomies will pass on a daily basis and the fuelers will pass during the hours of 8-7 M-F.
This noise law is hitting all of us. I too have been stopped on Parker and luckily the officer was extremely cool. I was Db'd at "well over 100" @ 2k rpm. Sucks worrying about getting a ticket for something you believe is B.S. but it is always a concern every time I go out. As soon as there is something designed that will work with big H.P. engines that will be compliant and not hurt the engine, I will be first in line. Unfortunately the technology is not there to allow big H.P. engines to comply with the law & we run the risk of trouble every time we go out. The whole noise law situation sucks!

don johnson
08-02-2004, 04:04 PM
Agreed. I do not think the boat is excessive either. However, the law is the law.... I talked to Gary Teague about the new gatlin style permenant mufflers from Imco, he said they are good but would not make the boat legal. We have no choices right now.
I noticed you have the Carrera for sale. New boat? If so, what?
Alan, from a law enforcement perspective, what is the expectation of us boat owners, meaning, are we clearly responsible for meeting the law even though the manufacturer produced a boat that does not comply with the law?

LHC30Victory
08-02-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by don johnson
Alan, from a law enforcement perspective, what is the expectation of us boat owners, meaning, are we clearly responsible for meeting the law even though the manufacturer produced a boat that does not comply with the law?
I think that may be better asked of an attorney, one that specializes in consumer protection. I was wondering that myself but didn't want to take the chance of upsetting anyone at advantage since I already sent them an email with this question.

boatnam2
08-02-2004, 04:32 PM
last time at parker a guy went by in the morning on a tuesday in a twin engine formula(i think)it was the loudest frigging thing i have ever heard.we are just above the keys and i could still hear him all the way up to foxes.that is a long way.

BADBLOWN572
08-02-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by don johnson
I noticed you have the Carrera for sale. New boat? If so, what?
New Carrera 32.

jbtrailerjim
08-02-2004, 04:52 PM
If the law has been on the books since 1974; why the hell are they all of the sudden enforcing it now? I would think about every boat with through transom exhaust and no mufflers (while on plane) is louder than 86db at 50 feet away. I'm with most of you. I think the law sucks.
Jim<----Loves the sound of an uncorked V8.:cool:

Boatcop
08-02-2004, 05:21 PM
Alan, from a law enforcement perspective, what is the expectation of us boat owners, meaning, are we clearly responsible for meeting the law even though the manufacturer produced a boat that does not comply with the law?
California makes it illegal to sell or manufacture a boat that isn't in compliance with watercraft noise laws. The full text of the current law is below. It has been in effect for nearly 30 years.
654.05. (a) A person may not operate a motorized recreational vessel in or upon the inland waters of this state in a manner that exceeds the following noise levels:
(1) For engines manufactured before January 1, 1976, a noise level of 86 dbA measured at a distance of 50 feet from the motorized recreational vessel.
(2) For engines manufactured on or after January 1, 1976, and
before January 1, 1978, a noise level of 84 dbA measured at a
distance of 50 feet from the motorized recreational vessel.
(3) For engines manufactured on or after January 1, 1978, a noise level of 82 dbA measured at a distance of 50 feet from the motorized recreational vessel.
(b) Testing procedures employed to determine noise levels shall be in accordance with the Exterior Sound Level Measurement Procedure For Pleasure Motorboats of the Society of Automotive Engineers in its recommended practice designated SAE J34. The department may, by regulation, revise the measurement procedure when deemed necessary to adjust to advances in technology.
(c) This section does not apply to motorized recreational vessels
competing under a local public entity or United States Coast Guard
permit in a regatta, in a boat race, while on trial runs, or while on
official trials for speed records during the time and in the
designated area authorized by the permit. In addition, this section does not apply to motorized recreational vessels preparing for a race or regatta if authorized by a permit issued by the local entity having jurisdiction over the area where the preparations occur.
(d) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1,
2005, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted statute that is enacted before January 1, 2005, deletes or extends that date.
As of January 1 2005, the law is changed to this to compliment the new J2005 standard:
654.03. (a) A person may not manufacture for sale a motorized recreational vessel that is not equipped with a muffler or muffler system, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 654, that brings the vessel into compliance with paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section 654.05, except as authorized under subdivision (b).
(b) A person may manufacture for sale a motorized recreational
vessel that is not equipped as required under subdivision (a) if the vessel is designed, manufactured, and sold for the sole purpose of competing in racing events.
(c) A person may not sell a vessel that is exempted under
subdivision (b) unless there is compliance with both of the
following:
(1) The sales agreement includes a statement that the vessel is
designed, manufactured, and sold for the sole purpose of competing in racing events and may not be operated in or upon the inland waters, or in or upon ocean waters that are within one mile of the coastline of the state, except under the conditions described in subdivision (c) of Section 654.
(2) The statement described in paragraph (1) is signed by both the buyer and the seller.
(d) Both the buyer and the seller of a vessel exempted under
subdivision (b) shall maintain copies of the sales agreement
described in paragraph (1) of subdivision (c).
(e) A person may not operate a vessel that is exempted under
subdivision (b) unless a copy of the sales agreement described in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) is on board the vessel.
(f) A person may not operate a vessel that is exempted under
subdivision (b) in or upon the inland waters, or in or upon ocean
waters within one mile of the coastline of the state, except under
the conditions described in subdivision (c) of Section 654.
(g) This section shall become operative on January 1, 2005.
The problem is that no one has enforced these laws on the manufacturers or dealers, and they (the boat builders) throw the innocent boaters to the wolves.
The problem compounds itself when the boat builders are usually in a different jurisdiction than where the typical boater would get the ticket, and therefore the Police or local Courts don't have any power over them. Corona or Riverside Police really don't have policing the boat builders very high on their priority list.
As far as Arizona goes, there are no such laws on boat builders or dealers, so it's buyer beware.
But the California builders DO know about this law. They just don't care. They've already pocketed their $120,000+, and will continue to do so, since no one is making them responsible.
If someone had been making sure that the builders were in compliance with the law, you can rest assured that every single one of them would have developed an exhaust system that was in compliance with noise regulations with minimal, if any loss of HP or performance. But so far there's no incentive to do so.
I can't see that I blame them that much. It's what the customers want. We all know that the louder the boat the faster it goes. (That was sarcasm, for those who didn't get it.)
Maybe Hot Boat should start including noise levels in their boat tests, so they can show everyone reading the magazine if the test boat was legal or not.
From a Law Enforcement standpoint, we really don't care who built the boat or how the dealer/manufacturer set the exhaust up. Along with the requirement on the dealer, it's also illegal to operate a boat that exceeds the limit. How the boat got to that point doesn't matter.
Maybe if everyone who get's a ticket starts going back to the builders (in California, at least) and demanding that THEY pay the fine, and/or going to the State Attorney General or Consumer Affairs Office, it would give them the incentive to do some R & D. Class action suit maybe? (FYI, The Coast Guard has no authority over boat noise. They deal with safety defects and violations of Federal Standards only. Noise Restrictions are strictly State issues.)
You all may see this as a little drastic, but it's YOU who are suffering because of the neglect of enforcement of these laws. The boat builders have run amuck, and have done it with your money.
It would take someone with the time, desire and money to see something like that through to it's end. One would have to appeal a minor ticket, probably all the way to the California Supreme court, to decide whether a law that isn't enforced on the manufacturers can be enforced on the public.
But also keep in mind that that scenario wouldn't have anything to do with how Arizona would enforce it. It would still be that all boats are required to have an exhaust system installed, in constant operation, and effective in reducing unreasonable noise, which has been set by rule to 86dba @ 50'.

Boatcop
08-02-2004, 07:16 PM
I left a portion out:
654.06. No person shall sell or offer for sale at retail any
internal combustion engine for use on any motorized recreational
vessel which, when operated, exceeds the following noise levels:
(a) For engines manufactured on or after January 1, 1974, and
before January 1, 1976, a noise level of 86 dbA measured at a
distance of 50 feet from the motorized recreational vessel.
(b) For engines manufactured on or after January 1, 1976, and
before January 1, 1978, a noise level of 84 dbA measured at a
distance of 50 feet from the motorized recreational vessel.
(c) For engines manufactured on or after January 1, 1978, a noise
level of 82 dbA measured at a distance of 50 feet from the motorized
recreational vessel.
Sorry!

mbrown2
08-02-2004, 07:32 PM
Boy I love those outboards more and more each day...:)
Alan, I agree if the builders thought it was a priority, it would probably be solved...
But since no one ever enforced, why is law enforcement changing their stance now?

Dr. Eagle
08-02-2004, 07:35 PM
Soooooooooo they just started enforcing them now?

Dr. Eagle
08-02-2004, 07:39 PM
:D

don johnson
08-03-2004, 05:54 AM
Alan, very enlightening insights.
Thanks for taking the time to explain the law, its affects/responsibilities and your take on its enforcement.

BrendellaJet
08-03-2004, 08:28 AM
Sorry Boatcop, I have to disagree with you. Its not the boat builders that have run amuck, its the government. Im gonna go out on a limb here and bet that there are more boaters with loud exhaust than there are people complaining about a little bit of noise. Its our unwillingness to assemble and squash these bastards that results in these rediculous laws.

Essex502
08-03-2004, 11:12 AM
I'd have to disagree with you Brendella...the Bluewater Network (mostly responsible for the new CA noise law) and the Sierra Club are HUGE well funded organizations. The few thousand Hot Boaters in the U.S. are miniscule in comparison. These are the organizations that contribute heavily to campaign funds for polical candidates. I don't know how large the performance boating industry it total is...i.e. builders, workers, customers, accessory manufacturers, etc. ...but I'd bet it is a lot smaller than 700,00 claimed members of the Sierra Club. And...for the boating industry you can't claim all of the Bayliner, Crestliner, etc....folks as the majority probably don't care.