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Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 07:48 PM
Well Marine Assault Custom engines will be the OEM supplier to Trident Custom Boats. Engines for their new "Revolution" dual jet drive deck boat.
Trident Boats Web Site (http://www.tridentboats.com/)
522 CID was decided on for a number of reasons. To operate within the effeciency range of a single intercooled 3.3 Whipple, to allow use of GM Gen VI blocks and cranks and also use of Edelbrock Performer RPM Marine cylinder heads. Everything working together.
Some of the components, J&E's best blower piston, Eagle "H" beams with L-19 bolts, Comp pro magnum rockers, Isky springs, hydraulic roller lifters and push rods, Cometic
head gaskets, ATI super damper blower balancer, SFI flex plate etc.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/Parts1.jpg
This OEM engine will be as revolutionary as the boat. Design, construction and features etc. Every component has been selected to compliment the other. This results in an awesome "engine combination". The entire engine combination designed specifically for the boat as well. Who could ask more of their OEM engine? This will not be a crate engine or a "select this model" engine from a list of take it or leave it models.
"Froggystyle" from Trident requested between 650 and 700 HP as the base model OEM engine. The engine will actually be built for 900+ HP. This will allow a HP upgrade without being concerned with the engine's ability to handle it. Pistons, rods, head gaskets, cylinder heads, camshaft etc. will all be there if more power is wanted when the warranty period is up. Or up front with no warranty. :cool: Disclaimer Will have to speak with Trident for details. A blower pulley change and computer re-program and a few hundred additional HP is there. :D

Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 07:51 PM
The Edelbrock Marine heads are not necessairily the best flowing or the most HP producing heads but: they work perfectly with the CID engine being used, are heat treated, hard anodized, thick decks for blower use and have severe duty intake valves and Inconnel exhaust valves.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/Head.jpg

Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 07:56 PM
Here is the new Gen VI block.
Has been to the machine shop and bored/honed to 4.560" This big bore will unshroud the valves a bit and add a few cubes. Had to get it bored and bring it back to the shop to check deck height. Will send it back for decking and final cam bearings etc.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/block1.jpg

Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 08:02 PM
Getting ready to check the deck height.
Already know the final bore size that will be needed for each engine once the production run starts full blast. Need to establish an exact deck height now. This will allow me to tell the machinist that I want "X" finished bore size and "X" deck height for each engine. Not have to mock up every one of them. Take my time on this one to establish the dimensions.
Will temp install the crank and a piston/rod assembly in all 4 corners.
These are the lucky components.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/stuff.jpg

Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 08:03 PM
#1 piston installed. No rings.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/11.jpg

Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 08:09 PM
Use the dial indicator to make sure it is exact TDC. #7 in work here. Did this to all 4 corners. At least 3 times each.
Use the depth micrometer to measure exactly how far the piston is in the hole. Easy to square the piston in the bore since no rings are installed.
Odd side measured .0265" and the even side measured .024"
Will deck both sides so the pistons are .005" in the hole. Custom thickness gaskets will give a "quench clearance" of .040". Future servicing of the block and it is squared to deck height of .000". a standard .040" gasket will maintain the proper quench clearance.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/deck.jpg

Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 08:14 PM
These Isky 9000 series cryo treated springs are the best available. Using titanium retainers to help them retain as much service life as possible. Also these hardened spring seats will not let the springs "work" into shims or soft aluminum. These hydraulic roller lifters are the latest in technology. They allow up to 160# seat pressures and way over 6K RPM's :D
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/springs.jpg

Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 08:17 PM
One more view of cylinder head and springs etc. Make you turn your head?
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/head2.jpg

Infomaniac
03-27-2004, 08:21 PM
Froggystyle do not look :D :D :D
Yes this is a v-drive timing cover on your engine being used as a template. Going to drill the block so it will accept a gen V or Gen VI timing cover. They use the same oil pan but different timing covers. Gen VI cover does not allow a double roller timing set without a spacer. Use a GEN V and be done with it.
Ok Froggy, maybe you should know to order Gen V timing cover and Gen VI oil pan. :)
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/template.jpg
More later. :cool: :cool:

cstraub
03-29-2004, 12:56 PM
Info,
Rollmaster make a timing set that is a true roller and will fit under the the stock cover if that helps.
Chris

Infomaniac
03-29-2004, 01:21 PM
Thanks Chris,
Will be getting with you guys right away for oil pan, valve covers and timing cover.
Gen V timing covers have a few more bolts to hold it on and oil in. ;)

Schiada76
03-29-2004, 01:25 PM
Info,
Did you mill off that POS timimg marker on the cast cover to put an accurate pointer on? If so what pointer did you use?

Infomaniac
03-29-2004, 02:10 PM
We don't have a cover yet.
I have an ATI superdamper and billet adjustable pointer for when we do get a cover. ;)
The HP500's that I made 540's recently had stock pointers and they checked dead on with the degree wheel. Had an aftermarket balancer though.

Hotcrusader76
03-30-2004, 02:38 AM
First off I would like to say congratulations on selecting a clean and reliable set-up with the best parts the industry has to offer. It's obvious to the end-user that no leaf was left unturned in engineering such a bullet proof engine. Can't wait to see the numbers. But this leads me to the next question...
Objectively speaking, some of these components seem overkill for the 700HP (boost) goal? It just seems to me we're taking down a small deer with a 40mm canon when a .223 would do the job. No?...
I completely understand that's it's longevity and reliability we're after but could there be some cost savings on the overall project's budget with items like 10' steel retainers vice titanium? Of course the valvetrain's harmonics and inertia of the components will love the titanium vice the steel and I do understand titanium is also the latest and greatest but wouldn't steel do the job for 700HP on a roller cam with moderate lift, again set-up for moderate boost? Does the cost of the titanium component sort of over-qaulify it's position for the already well designed system? Retail, were talking nearly a $100-150 difference or did Edelbrock send these with the heads?
I understand Wes always chooses top-notch stuff and never skimps on the finer details but in the end it's the client who can or can't afford the package that matters...No? What's your take on that?
Just curious that's all...;)

GofastRacer
03-30-2004, 05:29 AM
Sounds like a perfect combo to me!...I think this explains it!.:rolleyes:
" "Froggystyle" from Trident requested between 650 and 700 HP as the base model OEM engine. The engine will actually be built for 900+ HP. This will allow a HP upgrade without being concerned with the engine's ability to handle it. Pistons, rods, head gaskets, cylinder heads, camshaft etc. will all be there if more power is wanted when the warranty period is up. Or up front with no warranty. Disclaimer Will have to speak with Trident for details. A blower pulley change and computer re-program and a few hundred additional HP is there."

Infomaniac
03-30-2004, 06:42 AM
Ty - Good discussion is always welcome.
Valve springs are the first component to go away - loose their service life. Anything that can be done to extend that service life will be a plus to the buyer.
Titanium retainers were only $54.99 ;) ;) Edelbrock Marine heads come without springs, retainers and locks. $1,495.00 at most mail order places.
Edit: You would be suprised how inexpensive that engine package would be to purchase outright.
The same engine with a BDS 8-71, chiller and 2 custom carbs would run a tad over 18K. Same for a single carb whipple system.
My point being, there is no additional cost passed on to the consumer. My quote compared to a stock deal from the largest supplier of marine engines (no name).

Froggystyle
03-30-2004, 08:05 AM
Great pics Ron!
Lots of great stuff going into this motor. Each has a well thought out reason for it. With regards to "overkill" parts on a Trident... we all better just get used to it.
The price is not the primary factor in anything we are doing. If there was any consideration that it might be, you haven't been by the shop in a while. We have chosen the very best products available, that combine quality with the ability to deliver lots of product. Supply issues are not something I look forward to. One of the only caveats I gave to Ron was that it be significantly under-rated as delivered. There is nothing worse to me than buying something that cannot be easily squeezed for more performance. If you have a supercharger stock, you shouldn't have to chage valve springs to add boost. You shouldn't have to change out the pistons to higher quality ones so you don't smoke them, and you shouldn't have to get better rods. These components are designed to run over 900 horsepower for a long time. We will be de-tuning the boat to run 70 flat stock. We encourage people to be happy with 70 with a warrantied motor. This will put the Trident owner in elite company as far as stock deck boats, but we feel confident that with a little over 250 hp on tap, there will be some people that make the factory tested and tuned mods (at the expense of the motor warranty) and go beat up some outdrives...
With respect to the Ti retainers, that was a great call on Ron's part. I will say that I specified that we use 10 degree locks. It was one of very, very few items on this motor that I spec'ed out myself. I have had failures with lesser retainers, and it cost me a head. There are not a whole lot of lessons that I have paid for in the past that were not attended to in grand detail on the Revolution motor. All who remember the harmonic balancer coming apart on me last year will recognize an ATI dampner on this one, and lots of other goodies along the same lines.
I am pretty confident that Ron has applied his significant and relevant experience to the design as well.
To those who don't know, I gave Ron essentially carte blanche. He worked out flow details with the supercharger manufacturer, as well as gleaning their experience on building the motor. His proposal to me was detailed, and really showed the amount of thought that went into the actual design of the engine and components. This is a true system, and I left no part out of his reach with regard to durability, safety and longevity. I don't think there is a whole lot of better people I could have used to get this motor built, or anyone who uses more care and progressive assembly. We are very proud to have Ron on board, and cannot wait to give this new motor a spin.

HavasuDreamin'
03-30-2004, 10:17 AM
Very cool and informative thread. :cool:

Freak
03-30-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Infomaniac
Ty - Good discussion is always welcome.
Valve springs are the first component to go away - loose their service life. Anything that can be done to extend that service life will be a plus to the buyer.
Titanium retainers were only $54.99 ;) ;) Edelbrock Marine heads come without springs, retainers and locks. $1,495.00 at most mail order places.
Edit: You would be suprised how inexpensive that engine package would be to purchase outright.
The same engine with a BDS 8-71, chiller and 2 custom carbs would run a tad over 18K. Same for a single carb whipple system.
My point being, there is no additional cost passed on to the consumer. My quote compared to a stock deal from the largest supplier of marine engines (no name).
Info is that $ replacement or drop in?????

Infomaniac
03-30-2004, 01:01 PM
That is a repacement engine, fuel and iginition system running engine.
No accessories or exhaust.

cstraub
03-30-2004, 02:15 PM
Info,
Let me know but we can run the etching program and do a logo on our pointers. Also if they want Trident on the valve covers we can ball mill those also.
Chris

Fiat48
03-30-2004, 02:32 PM
Who's crankshaft?

HP350SC
03-30-2004, 02:45 PM
Are those Comp. rockers full roller, or roller tip?

Infomaniac
03-30-2004, 03:07 PM
Fiat - GM forged nitrided crank. The same one in my Blown inj alcohol.
HP350SC - Comp Pro Magnum. Stainless full roller rockers.

h2ojet001
03-31-2004, 09:13 AM
Info do you plan on doing a picture by picture view of the engine assembly similar to your 540 quad rotor project that got dumped into cyberspace? I hope so because it was very informative and provided info not found in books.
Barry

Infomaniac
03-31-2004, 09:21 AM
Barry - I have not dedicated the time for that lately. Here is another one posted on RiverDave's site.
HP 500 to 540 Project (http://www.riverratlife.com/forums/board/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000008)
Maybe between all of them there will be enough to help out.
The HP 500 project is also on Boat Freaks Tech section (http://server2.boatfreaks.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1193&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)
Different questions and info from other members there.

Blown 472
03-31-2004, 11:58 AM
Hey info you have a pic of the seven angle valve job and what is the radius cutter at the bottom dealio?

Infomaniac
03-31-2004, 05:35 PM
My camera will not zoom in like that. It is my camcorder that takes still pics also.
The engine is done anyway. I need to finish posting the rest. The angle cutter cuts away material behind the seat. Opens the pocket up to about the diameter of the seat opening.

DogHouse
03-31-2004, 06:30 PM
Sure hope Isky's hydraulic rollers are better than the red zone solid rollers. Just lost another this weekend. One more trashed motor for the record book. No more Isky products in any of my motors...
Otherwise, very nice package you're putting together.
-brian

Fiat48
03-31-2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by DogHouse
Sure hope Isky's hydraulic rollers are better than the red zone solid rollers. Just lost another this weekend. One more trashed motor for the record book. No more Isky products in any of my motors...
Otherwise, very nice package you're putting together.
-brian
May not apply, but you might check your spring pressures (mainly seat) if your losing rollers. And maybe too much idling and not enough oil splash.

DogHouse
03-31-2004, 06:57 PM
Fiat, that's a good idea, but I'm not sure what else we could do. My motor idles with plenty of pressure (40 hot, 60 warm, 80 cold), has a 4.5" crank (lots of splash!), and ~260-270 on the seat (kinda normal for a solid roller). This one failed at about 50 hours. The one before it failed at about 10 hours. Valves always adjusted, no signs of hammering on rockers or pushrods. I'm done with solid rollers in a pleasure motor, too much time idling in the channel I guess. Time to back off on the combo and just enjoy. Either that or find a better lifter, like maybe some hemi size Jesels, or Shubecks, or ???
-brian

Fiat48
03-31-2004, 07:40 PM
Sounds like you have covered the bases. Comp is making a severe duty lifter that has a slot cut in it for better oiling. Trying these in a daycruiser now, but the jury is still out. I also use an old LS-7 valley tray that helps serve as a drip rail for the rollers while keeping hot oil off the intake manifold.
I've always used Comps rollers and the only failure I have had was the Daycruiser. But he idled for hours on end and the rollers went dry. The new ones are Comp's answer to the problem.

Infomaniac
03-31-2004, 07:45 PM
Have not seen much problem with hydraulic rollers of any brand.
These have larger wheels and the valving allows more spring seat pressure.

DogHouse
03-31-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Infomaniac
Have not seen much problem with hydraulic rollers of any brand.
These have larger wheels and the valving allows more spring seat pressure.
That's good to hear. I guess I should consider the Isky hydraulics but you know how it goes after you've had some failures. Best of luck with your deal, didn't mean to hijack your thread!
-brian

flat broke
04-01-2004, 11:31 AM
Brian,
What's your max RPM? A lot of time seat pressures are based off of setups that run much higher RPMs than our boats. Think about what you would shift that motor at in a car... Because we don't spin em as high, we also don't need as much tension to keep em in check at the RPMs we're never going to see. Perhaps a lower spring rate, or taller installed height to drop the seated pressure so that there isn't as much strain at low RPM when there is little oil floating around to lube that stuff. I think you use Peto, so talk to him and see what he thinks.
BTW, if you do go hydrualic, you're going to have to lower your spring rates anyways. Then you have to ask about the ramp profile of your stick to see how gentle it would be with the hydraulic rollers.
Sorry to hear about your motor. With all the problems you had last year, it sucks to see you start off the same way this year. Hopefully you can get it ironed out soon and enjoy the rest of the summer.
Chris

Blown 472
04-01-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Infomaniac
My camera will not zoom in like that. It is my camcorder that takes still pics also.
The engine is done anyway. I need to finish posting the rest. The angle cutter cuts away material behind the seat. Opens the pocket up to about the diameter of the seat opening.
And thats all you do to the heads?

HighRoller
04-01-2004, 06:34 PM
We will be de-tuning the boat to run 70 flat stock. Is that with the Dual Jet or Outdrive? You mentioned abusing some "drives" so I had to ask..what drive system is the prototype going to use?

Infomaniac
04-01-2004, 10:13 PM
It will be a dual jet drive.

cstraub
04-02-2004, 06:40 AM
The best hyd. roller is the Morel piece. These are the guys that solved the fuel teams problems with eating lifters on the exhast side and replacing the existing brand lifters ever other pass. The Morels will go a season. They introduced a hyd. roller 2 years ago with improved valving, fully machined body, and stiffer spring for more rpm.
Info looks good.
Chris

ROZ
04-03-2004, 11:58 PM
Info, When's the delivery date?... I wanna make sure I'm at Wes's secret hideout when the baby you two have spawned comes home :D

Infomaniac
04-04-2004, 07:30 AM
Roz - looks like it will be twins :D
Two delivered next month. But to Dustin Whipple for some serious thrashing.
Dustin will dial in the EFI. Want to get some tune ups at several different power settings.

Froggystyle
04-05-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Infomaniac
Want to get some tune ups at several different power settings.
...and altitudes!
We are going to be doing a tune that works with total efficiency at Tahoe/Powell etc... Increased pulley to bring up the same boost number and a re-curved fuel delivery to accomodate the higher altitude.
I can't wait... Full power at Tahoe? Who'd of thunk?

Hotcrusader76
04-05-2004, 04:41 PM
So I assume this is going to be a closed loop system? Which means the boat needs to be tuned for the altitude it's destined for, correct?
....again assuming this will not have the O2 sensors and MAF?

DogHouse
04-05-2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by flat broke
Brian,
What's your max RPM? A lot of time seat pressures are based off of setups that run much higher RPMs than our boats. Think about what you would shift that motor at in a car... Because we don't spin em as high, we also don't need as much tension to keep em in check at the RPMs we're never going to see. Perhaps a lower spring rate, or taller installed height to drop the seated pressure so that there isn't as much strain at low RPM when there is little oil floating around to lube that stuff. I think you use Peto, so talk to him and see what he thinks.
BTW, if you do go hydrualic, you're going to have to lower your spring rates anyways. Then you have to ask about the ramp profile of your stick to see how gentle it would be with the hydraulic rollers.
Sorry to hear about your motor. With all the problems you had last year, it sucks to see you start off the same way this year. Hopefully you can get it ironed out soon and enjoy the rest of the summer.
Chris
Chris, max rpm I've seen on the lake is about 6200. We dyno'd to 6500. The cam has very agressive ramps so I think that's why the stout springs were spec'd.
I've got the motor out and torn down to the block with rotating assembly. Not much damage so far. Lifter bores look good. As far as I can tell, the link bar snapped on #1. The exhaust lifter rotated 90 deg and wore a big flat spot in the roller, but the roller is intact and still spins smoothly on the bearing. The intake lifter was still straight and lined up, not much damage. Half of the link bar was sitting in the lifter valley, and the other half made its way down to the pan and ripped a piece of the windage tray off on the way. The cam is hurt but not as bad as I expected. With some luck, there's enough meat left in the billet to regrind into a hydraulic roller profile. I'll pull the crank out tonight and check all the bearings and bores. With a little luck, I'll clean it up and reassemble with new valvetrane (yes softer springs!!!) and bearings and not spend too much moola.
-brian

DogHouse
04-05-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by cstraub69
The best hyd. roller is the Morel piece. These are the guys that solved the fuel teams problems with eating lifters on the exhast side and replacing the existing brand lifters ever other pass. The Morels will go a season. They introduced a hyd. roller 2 years ago with improved valving, fully machined body, and stiffer spring for more rpm.
Info looks good.
Chris
Thanks for the tip, I'll check them out. Shubeck has some interesting stuff too, but I haven't heard any first hand reports on the reliability, and it's expensive stuff to experiment with!
Does Morel have a websight? I did a quick search and didn't come up with anything.
Thanks,
-brian

Froggystyle
04-05-2004, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Hotcrusader76
....again assuming this will not have the O2 sensors and MAF?
You would be assuming incorrectly.
We got some new stuff going on in that department.

Jordy
04-05-2004, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Froggystyle
You would be assuming incorrectly.
That's why you don't make assumptions... :rolleyes: :D

Hotcrusader76
04-05-2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Froggystyle
You would be assuming incorrectly.
We got some new stuff going on in that department.
It's my understanding that if you have the necessary feedback sensors, ie: O2 and MAF/MAP than you wouldn't need to remap the fuel curves for different altitudes and it is therefore not a closed loop system...correct? I wasn't clear of Trident's approach on this.
The MAF sensor will be able to sense the correct ambient air pressures, temps, and velocities, which then chooses an appropriate fuel curve, already preprogrammed into the ECU. What new things are going on there other than making it work with boost?
It will also be interesting to see how the O2 sensor is incorporated into all of this as well. What sort of things are the boyz @ Bassani brewing up? Of course being vague :D what's the scoop?
I understand there's some interest in keeping the same boost figures at higher altitudes which ironically isn't new either but doing it electronically seems to spice things up a bit I suppose. The NHRA and IHRA guys have always had problems running in Colorado because of this no matter what they did with their boost, from Pro mod up to Top Fuel, but then again they were mechanical injected set-ups.
Sounds like Whipple may be "whipping" something up good. Can't wait to see the results.
Rock on...
~Ty

flat broke
04-05-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by DogHouse
Chris, max rpm I've seen on the lake is about 6200. We dyno'd to 6500. The cam has very agressive ramps so I think that's why the stout springs were spec'd.
I've got the motor out and torn down to the block with rotating assembly. Not much damage so far. Lifter bores look good. As far as I can tell, the link bar snapped on #1. The exhaust lifter rotated 90 deg and wore a big flat spot in the roller, but the roller is intact and still spins smoothly on the bearing. The intake lifter was still straight and lined up, not much damage. Half of the link bar was sitting in the lifter valley, and the other half made its way down to the pan and ripped a piece of the windage tray off on the way. The cam is hurt but not as bad as I expected. With some luck, there's enough meat left in the billet to regrind into a hydraulic roller profile. I'll pull the crank out tonight and check all the bearings and bores. With a little luck, I'll clean it up and reassemble with new valvetrane (yes softer springs!!!) and bearings and not spend too much moola.
-brian
Sorry to keep hijackin Info and Froggy's thread.
Glad to hear the damage isn't too bad. Good luck getting her back together and enjoying the summer.
Chris

flat broke
04-05-2004, 10:40 PM
Oh yeah, and BTW, in regard to the Powell and Tahoe dealy with the Trident motors, remember that you can't get 91 at the pump on Powell! So map that biatch accordingly :)
Open loop would be a sweet way to go for the ultimate no fuss haul the bacon setup. Its cool to see a good amount of thought put into the design of the setup. Coming from my old QA background, its definitely a refreshing approach to see in the market I enjoy most.
Froggy, is Trident going to hold on to the intellectuals of the system so that bolt on engine management systems would be marketed by an subsidary, or will you lave the pieces/parts to their respective vendors and stay out of the aftermarket aspect of it?
Just curious,
Chris

gmocnik
04-06-2004, 06:44 AM
info..
i would be very interested in some general info regarding the efi control system that you will be using....
What ecm will be used??? i have some recent experience using mefi-3 and mefi-4 and autronics....on whippled systems
who will do the actual programming of the system???
it is a very interesting subject....
thanks
gm

Infomaniac
04-06-2004, 08:28 AM
Thanks again everyone.
The fuel system is part of Trident's engine program. I do not know the specifics of the components and I believe Dustin Whipple will dial them in.
I am fortunate enough to design and build the mechanical portion. Trident has control of the tune up. They will be in control of the warranty as well. ;) They go hand in hand.

Hotcrusader76
04-06-2004, 08:33 AM
So much for breaking 70MPH:D:D

Froggystyle
04-06-2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by gmocnik
info..
i would be very interested in some general info regarding the efi control system that you will be using....
What ecm will be used??? i have some recent experience using mefi-3 and mefi-4 and autronics....on whippled systems
who will do the actual programming of the system???
it is a very interesting subject....
thanks
gm
PM me if you want to discuss it in detail. We are being pretty controlled at this point with who we let in to the planning.
All of the fuel system stuff is proprietary at this point. This is going to be a long next couple of months though...

ROZ
04-06-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Hotcrusader76
So much for breaking 70MPH:D:D
I think you mean for not breaking 70mph... My bet is that most peeps are going to do the upgrade :D :D :D

Rexone
04-06-2004, 11:28 PM
Sorry for the thread buster, HC76 your signature almost made my coffee come out my nose. lol.

Infomaniac
04-07-2004, 07:22 PM
OK Rexone wipe up the coffee.
Just an FYI. bearing clearance was a bit much on rods and mains.
Had to buy two sets of bearings. One standard set and one with .001" less clearance.
For example shooting for .003" clearance on the mains. It measured out at .0035"
To correct this I install a standard bearing half and a .001" tight bearing half in each hole. Brings the clearances right where I wanted them.
Now what to do with the two broken bearing sets? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/2112size-med.jpg

Infomaniac
04-08-2004, 07:38 PM
Filing rings. This must take more time than any other single task. Or at least seem so.
The first few suck but after 2 or 3 it goes faster. Hog them within a few thousandths with the electric filer. Finish with the hand filer.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/file.jpg

VD CRUISER
04-09-2004, 05:04 AM
Yea, filing rings is probably the least fun thing to do on an engine build.

cstraub
04-09-2004, 07:13 AM
No, grinding for Rod clearance is the worst.
Chris

Dave C
04-09-2004, 03:19 PM
can I get an AMEN brother........
Originally posted by Froggystyle
There is nothing worse to me than buying something that cannot be easily squeezed for more performance. If you have a supercharger stock, you shouldn't have to chage valve springs to add boost. You shouldn't have to change out the pistons to higher quality ones so you don't smoke them, and you shouldn't have to get better rods.

Dave C
04-09-2004, 03:31 PM
oK I know the O2 sensor is being done in a wet exhaust system. Who is doing it and what is their phone #. I got cash...........
Originally posted by Froggystyle
You would be assuming incorrectly.
We got some new stuff going on in that department.

Infomaniac
04-10-2004, 07:06 PM
Just a shot of the rings fit and waiting to be installed on the pistons.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/rails.jpg

Infomaniac
04-11-2004, 09:41 AM
What an oily mess. 2 more spiro locks - rings and in the holes they go.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/oily.jpg

VD CRUISER
04-11-2004, 05:47 PM
Info , you mind divulging what gap you use on the top and second ring, on a 4.5 bore blower motor.

Infomaniac
04-11-2004, 06:07 PM
I used the specs for moderate boost/nitrous on this one.
The bore is 4.560
.023 top
.025 second
J&E moly ring set. Each brand is a bit diferent. Total Seals use a much smaller second ring gap.
Big boost and race gas another .002

Infomaniac
04-12-2004, 07:45 PM
Oily workbench mess now in the engine. Perfect .005" in the hole as planned.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/pisin.jpg

Fiat48
04-12-2004, 08:40 PM
2nd ring gap is wider than top ring?
Gapless 2nd ring?
Moly top and cast iron 2nd?
Sorry for 20 questions..not familiar with ring set.

Infomaniac
04-13-2004, 01:56 AM
J&E moly ring set.
Moly top - iron second.
Second is not gapless and gap is wider than top.

78Eliminator
04-13-2004, 06:52 AM
So I read up on Info's ring gap deal. He says this:
"I used the specs for moderate boost/nitrous on this one.
The bore is 4.560
.023 top
.025 second
J&E moly ring set. Each brand is a bit diferent. Total Seals use a much smaller second ring gap.
Big boost and race gas another .002"
So I go to J&E's web site and double check his work. Info says that he used the "specs for moderate boost/nitrous". Ok well I see they have a table (http://www.jepistons.com/pdf/piston_instrc4032.pdf) that says for moderate boost/nitrous use this formula:
Top Ring = Bore X .0050"
Second Ring = Bore X .0055"
Oil Ring Rail = Min .015"
So lets do the math,
Top Ring = 4.560X.0050=.0228
Second Ring = 4.560X.0055=.02508
Following J&E specs, looks like Info is right in there....

Infomaniac
04-13-2004, 07:01 AM
When all else fails ...... read the directions. :cool:
I think the reason it was questioned is that second ring gap larger is fairly "new school"
Drag race is typically both gaps the same or gapless second.

VD CRUISER
04-13-2004, 07:09 AM
The reason I asked is, we used to make the second ring gap less than the top, but I have heard the thinking on that had changed. Whats the reasoning behind making the second greater? I don't do this every day.

78Eliminator
04-13-2004, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Infomaniac
When all else fails ...... read the directions. :cool:
I think the reason it was questioned is that second ring gap larger is fairly "new school"
Drag race is typically both gaps the same or gapless second.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I didn't know about a gapless second though....
Thanks Info.
Thinking about the top ring gap being larger than the second makes sense to me. The top ring is a lot hotter ring. It's going to grow more. So switching it all backwards seems strange, unless the metal expansion characteristics are different between the two ring metals....

Dave C
04-13-2004, 07:48 AM
that'll learn ya to question the infomaniac..;) :D

Infomaniac
04-13-2004, 06:03 PM
One Edelbrock Marine, Isky springed, titanium retainered, gasket matched head ready to install.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/hed.jpg

Hallett19
04-13-2004, 06:39 PM
:eek: DAMNNNNN

Infomaniac
04-13-2004, 07:11 PM
Using custom thickness Cometic head gaskets.
Two outer layers are coated and standard thickness. Inner layer sets the overall thickness.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/gas2.jpg

Infomaniac
04-13-2004, 07:13 PM
Check head gasket fit against the head.
Make sure everything lines up.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/gas1.jpg

Infomaniac
04-13-2004, 07:13 PM
And check head gasket fit on the block.
Will install 1 head tomorrow.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/gas3.jpg

cstraub
04-14-2004, 05:28 AM
Hmm, I can see by the picture of the head you can not use the extra head bolts with the Edelbrocks on blocks that have the provision.
Chris

Infomaniac
04-14-2004, 05:44 AM
The material is there in the head. Would have to be drilled and tapped.

Froggystyle
04-15-2004, 11:26 AM
Heads on yet?
This is my favorite thread right now! hehe

Infomaniac
04-15-2004, 11:42 AM
We should have bought Brodix Heads. :mad:
My ARP very late but "just in time" head stud shipment was for Brodix rather than Edelbrock Heads.
They are jumping out their asses to get the correct studs to me. Red label delivery with pre-paid return label.
Unfortunately this type of mistake is fairly common with quite a few vendors. Not sure what to do about it.

Stupid Fast
04-17-2004, 04:00 AM
This is a "standard" engine!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :eek!: :eek!: :eek:
I am very impressed. VERY impressed. Froggy this really is going to be a Top Notch vessle,
Info, I keep watching your posts and I just can not get over your attention to detail. I can tell you have an aviation background.
I am glad that I get a chance to see what goes into these "super" boats. One of these days I mat be able to get one, but for now, It is great for me just to see this process.
Thanks Guys.
Eric

Froggystyle
04-20-2004, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Stupid Fast
This is a "standard" engine!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :eek!: :eek!: :eek:
I am very impressed. VERY impressed. Froggy this really is going to be a Top Notch vessle,
Info, I keep watching your posts and I just can not get over your attention to detail. I can tell you have an aviation background.
I am glad that I get a chance to see what goes into these "super" boats. One of these days I mat be able to get one, but for now, It is great for me just to see this process.
Thanks Guys.
Eric
Thanks Eric, yeah, this is the standard engine. This is what they all come with.
What is great is that with some semblance of standardization and system building, we are able to sell these boats at well below what anyone else would have to charge for a similar product out of their factorys, even through we will only sell through dealers. The inefficiencies are mind boggling in this business. I say do it right from the beginning and trust that people will know the difference when they see it.

Infomaniac
04-22-2004, 07:47 PM
Well the ARP hosing continues.
I only have a few hours of work remaining but without the studs, it may as well be a weeks worth.
I will know better next time. How to deal with them.
I can fill in with a pic of the intake valve after lapping in. cannot just throw together a new set of heads without seeing for myself that the valves are going to seal.
The "frosty" ring around this valve is where I lapped it in. Matching frosty ring on the seat. Should seal off well.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/lap.jpg

Fiat48
04-22-2004, 09:19 PM
Only old school guys that want to be sure a valve seals lap them. In other words, I still do too.

spectras only
04-23-2004, 03:37 PM
My old Champion Ace gearbox [1972] has lapped gears .Hmmm, wonder why so quiet;) :D

jlnorthrup122
04-25-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Vd Cruiser:
The reason I asked is, we used to make the second ring gap less than the top, but I have heard the thinking on that had changed. Whats the reasoning behind making the second greater? I don't do this every day.
I could be wrong on this But it is a pressure between the rings relief issue it would be much easier for the pressure to despence into the crank case rather than move up into the higher presserised cylinder!

Infomaniac
04-29-2004, 07:26 AM
A quick update.
The studs finally show up. Here is a shot of them installed. There are 5 different lengths for the Edelbrock heads.
Do not like the lengths. Some too long and some too short. Will post pics later.
Time to call ARP tech support and maybe get a custom mix of fasteners.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/studs.jpg

Infomaniac
04-29-2004, 07:27 AM
One Beware FYI type thing.
These Cometic gaskets are made from several layers of metal. Riveted together in four places out of the way of head/block clamp up. This rivet is just asking to fall out and into the engine.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/rivet.jpg

Infomaniac
04-29-2004, 08:39 AM
To address a question from another site asking if I was questioning the design of the Cometic gaskets.
The rivet mentioned above is poorly installed. I can push it out very easily. Here is the rivet on the other side. It is installed well and the gasket is clamped together good on this end.
Proposed solution is to clamp it down myself and if I do not like the way that turned out remove it all together.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/rivet2.jpg

Froggystyle
05-05-2004, 09:43 AM
Any updates?

Infomaniac
05-05-2004, 10:02 AM
ARP is sending the correct length studs. Should be here any day now.
Interesting experience. Takes as long to get head studs as it does to build the engine.
I guess in their defence. They do not have a set specifically for the Edelbrock Marine head.
I will have the correct set (lenghts) on record for the future. 5 different length studs for these heads. All part of "building" an engine. Now this is known, it will not be a road block in the future.
In this case how many suppliers can you get head studs from? Not many options.

Infomaniac
05-06-2004, 07:58 AM
Well the brown truck arrived from the west with 8 new studs.
No charge from ARP also :D :D
The new correct length on the left and original too short on the right.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/better.jpg

Infomaniac
05-06-2004, 08:01 AM
Soft springs installed to check valve/piston clearance.
Now way they will hit but better check anyway.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/softsp.jpg

Infomaniac
05-06-2004, 08:04 AM
Isky hydraulic rollers. .083 wall swedged end push rods. Comp Pro Magnum Rockers.
Roll the engine around. Push the springs until the valve contacts the piston.
Missed by a mile.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/check.jpg

Infomaniac
05-06-2004, 08:06 AM
Dissassemble. Put the correct springs back on. Install the heads. Run the valves. Check pushrod length. Done deal.
Will need sheet metal ASAP Wes. Don't forget the matching pick up tube with the oil pan. Melling M77HV pump standing by.

Blown 472
05-06-2004, 08:27 AM
Your using a roller cam in these motors? Will one have to change the dist gear on a regular basis??

Infomaniac
05-06-2004, 08:55 AM
Comp has a cast iron gear on their billet cams. no need to change distributor gears.

cstraub
05-06-2004, 11:35 AM
Well, now I know for sure who Isky is using for lifters.
Chris

JLaughreySS24
05-08-2004, 02:55 PM
Hey Info, Do the iskenderian roller lifters arms clear the block cause the Comp Cams roller lifter arms hit and have to be ground down for clearance.

Infomaniac
05-09-2004, 07:35 AM
Yea they clear the Gen VI or Dart tall bores.

Fiat48
05-09-2004, 04:07 PM
Info,
Using valve seals that came with the heads? What are they? PC or what? Thanks.

Infomaniac
05-09-2004, 04:59 PM
Fiat - The heads came with valves only.
I am using The Rubber body seal that has the teflon insert around the valve. A spring clamp on the guide portion only.
Bulk from Herbert.

Infomaniac
05-13-2004, 07:29 PM
Assembled the valve train one 1 head to check push rod length. Check 4 of them rather than just 1 cylinder.
One and five have Isky .150" shorter pushrods. Three and seven have stock length Manley hydraulic roller push rods.
Isky recommends these shorter pushrods with their new lifters. Plus the block was decked .022 or so to get the height I wanted.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/prcheck.jpg

Infomaniac
05-13-2004, 07:32 PM
First the stock length hydraulic roller push rod. Lower right of pic.
A bit too long.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/toolong.jpg

Infomaniac
05-13-2004, 07:34 PM
This one was the Isky .150" shorter push rod.
I like this one better.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/goodone.jpg

Infomaniac
05-18-2004, 07:11 PM
Putting the balancer back together. Engine is balanced with only the counterweighted center section.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/balancer.jpg

Infomaniac
05-18-2004, 07:13 PM
Left one cylinder head off until I had the timing cover and balancer. Need to use the piston stop tool to find exact TDC.
Found it. You might notice the engine changed color also.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/found.jpg

Infomaniac
05-18-2004, 07:16 PM
The GM Gen VI timing cover has a pointer built on. The stock balancer is 8" and the new one is 7" . Will not work. Was worth a try.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/tried.jpg

Infomaniac
05-18-2004, 07:19 PM
A quick cutting wheel job on the stock timing pointer and a new billet adjustable pointer will do the job.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/pointer.jpg

Infomaniac
05-18-2004, 07:21 PM
Installed the other cylinder head, remainaing valve train and timing cover for good.
One last look around in here.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/last.jpg

Infomaniac
05-19-2004, 07:31 PM
Should not be a problem filling these cylinders. What looks like a step is a digital camera optical illusion. The black is the hard anodizing. The entire head casting was hard anodized before machining.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/fillit.jpg

Infomaniac
05-19-2004, 07:34 PM
Thanks GM for providing this intake valley pan. It is a nice feature. Will keep the hot oil from splashing the bottom of the intake manifold. The intake will have an integrated intercooler as well. Every little bit helps.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/valley.jpg

HP350SC
05-19-2004, 09:28 PM
I have the same intake tray and when I first put my Whipple on I carefully notched the gaskets with a grinder wheel at the tabs. Upon disassembly to do head gaskets and springs, I noticed what looked like a trail of rust along the lower edge of the head. The standard 1/16" gasket compressed just enough to bottom out on the tabs, and may have allowed some seepage. So this time around I used the 1/8" thick intake gaskets. The stock Dart intake curves up around where the tabs are, the Whipple did not.
Great thread by the way, always a treat to watch engine builders at work. Especially with the level of detail you show.

Taylorman
05-25-2004, 05:36 AM
Are the Edelbrock heads box stock or did you port them at all? Im just wondering what kind of hp they are capable of out of the box. This ought to be a killer engine. You definately sweet the details. Looking good. Also, ive seen some paint the inside of their blocks. Whats the reason for this and why did you not do it on this engine?

Infomaniac
05-25-2004, 06:54 AM
These Edelbrock heads have been gasket matched only. Not sure about the HP capabilities. In this application we will be holding back on the power. Kind of the opposite of trying to eek out the last HP. They would not be my first choice for an engine any larger than 522.
I do not paint the inside of the engines. I have seen a lot of it come loose from other people doing it. They paint them to aid oil in draining back. And as stated before this is not a maximum potential application for the engine. Saves on cost and turn times to not paint them also.

GofastRacer
05-25-2004, 07:14 AM
I never paint the inside, if there's something in the metal that has a reaction to paint you will not know it at the time but it will come off later and that =spun bearings. If worried about oil drain back, polish the valey area!..:cool:

Taylorman
05-25-2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Infomaniac
These Edelbrock heads have been gasket matched only. Not sure about the HP capabilities. In this application we will be holding back on the power. Kind of the opposite of trying to eek out the last HP. They would not be my first choice for an engine any larger than 522.
What made you choose these heads? The reason for my question about being ported or not is i was just wondering if they are capable of 600-700 hp without being ported.

Infomaniac
05-25-2004, 10:12 AM
These heads will make more than enough power.
They were chosen mainly because they are a Marine head.
Thick deck, heat treated, hard anodized, inconel exhaust valves, etc.

tbanzer
05-25-2004, 07:19 PM
Out of curiosity, why is there such a difference in the cylinders that require such a large difference in push rod length? Never seen that before.

Infomaniac
05-25-2004, 08:00 PM
Maybe you are looking at the experiment for pushrod length?
I checked more than one cyl just for shits and grins.
Every cylinder got the Isky shorter push rods.

tbanzer
05-26-2004, 10:10 AM
I must have misunderstood your post. I thought you meant that two of the cylindrs required stock length push rods and the other two cylinders required .150" shorter.

JC
05-31-2004, 12:56 PM
"UPDATE: The GM block and crank will be replaced with a Dart/Merlin III block and Eagle crank for all production engines. This prototype engine will remain unchanged"
Infomaniac: Maybe I missed it, but why change from the GM block and crank for your production engines?
Great thread, thanks.

Froggystyle
05-31-2004, 07:53 PM
There are a variety of reasons why, but they all boil down to the question "what is best for the Trident boat owners?"
The Dart/Merlin combination is proven absolutely bombproof, is Ron's first choice and works with all Gen IV aftermarket parts, which are far more plentiful and developed than the Gen VI stuff available. Things like a Dan Olsen oil cooler, Dooley pan/windage tray, timing cover etc... were cheaper, more available and better supported for the Gen IV block and crank.
It is a great decision by Ron, and one I support 100%. They are a little more expensive than the Chevy parts, but we feel that the durability, performance and racing heritage will be well worth it.
Bottom line, it will make a better motor package.

Taylorman
06-02-2004, 11:15 AM
So is engine # 1 complete? Got pictures?

Infomaniac
06-02-2004, 12:24 PM
Yes it is done but I need to take pictures.
All of #2 is bought and will start rolling in next week.
I will update everything ASAP.

HighRoller
06-02-2004, 01:22 PM
Info, what do you think of the Merlin crate engines for marine use? I remember a while back somebody saying they were going to buy one and another person said there might be reasons why you wouldn't want to use it in a boat. They make a 509 that is advertised at 575HP and a 540 that is slightly over 600HP. Teague marine advertises its "marinized" version of this engine for 10,500 and I was wondering if that was a reasonable price.

Infomaniac
06-03-2004, 06:23 AM
That Teague engine sounds like a good deal.
I personally would not buy and install one. It would need disassembled, machined a bit looser in some areas, different cam, valves and springs. Marine head gaskets when going back together. Maybe oil pan, have not seen what it comes with.

HighRoller
06-03-2004, 01:33 PM
I wasn't sure what was different about a marine engine but that clears it up pretty well. I wonder if Teague actually does all that stuff or if they just stick a new oil pan and carb on it and call it "marinized".

Froggystyle
06-04-2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by HighRoller
I wasn't sure what was different about a marine engine but that clears it up pretty well. I wonder if Teague actually does all that stuff or if they just stick a new oil pan and carb on it and call it "marinized".
Which Teague?

HighRoller
06-04-2004, 03:32 PM
Teague Custom Marine.

Froggystyle
06-08-2004, 09:25 AM
I don't know anything about them. I have been speaking with GT Performance recently though about some stuff and they seem to be top notch as well.

Infomaniac
06-08-2004, 06:52 PM
Better update some posting on this project.
Will be fairly direct and to the point.
Dooley supplied pan pick up.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/506/211pickup-med.jpg

Infomaniac
06-08-2004, 06:53 PM
Windage tray complete and installed.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/211windage-med.jpg

Infomaniac
06-08-2004, 06:54 PM
Oil pan on.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/211oilpan-med.jpg

Infomaniac
06-08-2004, 06:56 PM
Balancer installed. Long block complete.
Trident will supply everything from here. I will be happy to install it.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2112done-med.jpg

Infomaniac
06-08-2004, 06:58 PM
Trident engine #2 ready to start.
Completely machined Merlin III block. Ready to fit piston rings and assemble.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/211merlin3-med.jpg

INEEDAV
06-08-2004, 07:35 PM
Good thread Info, always enjoy following your builds. The attention to detail is impressive.:)

Fiat48
06-08-2004, 07:57 PM
Priority oiling on this block?

Infomaniac
06-09-2004, 03:07 AM
Yes Fiat - This block has a dedicated oil galley located up high for the mains and cam bearings that is fed directly from the rear of the block.
Does not pass through the rear main or rear cam bearing first.

HighRoller
06-09-2004, 05:06 AM
I don't know anything about them. I have been speaking with GT Performance recently though about some stuff and they seem to be top notch as well
I've heard a lot of good things about GT Performance too. Their 540 Whipple EFI motor makes me drool. They also have a new 588 N/A piece that's supposed to be unreal too. Unfortunately the price tag is a little out of my neighborhood. Have you been consulting with them about the Whipple EFI deal?

Froggystyle
06-17-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by HighRoller
I've heard a lot of good things about GT Performance too. Their 540 Whipple EFI motor makes me drool. They also have a new 588 N/A piece that's supposed to be unreal too. Unfortunately the price tag is a little out of my neighborhood. Have you been consulting with them about the Whipple EFI deal?
We're talking a little. Seems to be the only way to get through to Dustin...

HighRoller
06-18-2004, 03:53 AM
Froggy, how do the guys who build a lot of Whipple EFI engines program their stuff? I know Gary Teague, Bob Teague and even guys on here like GT are building EFI setups for customers so I wouldn't think it would be that hard to figure out. Is there some special set of circumstances I'm missing?

Froggystyle
06-21-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by HighRoller
Froggy, how do the guys who build a lot of Whipple EFI engines program their stuff? I know Gary Teague, Bob Teague and even guys on here like GT are building EFI setups for customers so I wouldn't think it would be that hard to figure out. Is there some special set of circumstances I'm missing?
Mostly in the baselining, plus tuning for a less than conservative horsepower output.
We are doing two tunes, one at the approximately 650 horsepower level as delivered stock and bombproof with a warranty, and a factory tested and tuned level of 900 plus, but with no warranty. We want to make the upgrade free to our clients with the understanding that they are taking engine life and longevity into their own hands, but also providing a huge amount of horsepower stock, with a very conservative program.
In addition, we are tuning for high altitude (Lake Tahoe) where you will be optimized and hardly lose any power. Problem is, we are trying to work a barometer into the equation to fix the fuel program back at sea level. The drama comes from the increased boost level up at altitude neccessary to regain the power (boost normalizing). If you run the high-altitude pulley, you will detonate at sea level with normal gas.
The bottom line is, we are asking for a zero failure motor, and not many people are up to the task, nor want to try. Info did, and the preceding pages are his solution. It looks like Gary Teague wants a shot at the title as well, so we will be swinging the motor by his place for some test and tune.
In any case, it is a long process to do properly, and we are not taking any shortcuts.
Squirts up!

HighRoller
06-21-2004, 05:29 PM
Good deal! Forgot about the high altitude part of the equation. So, when you go from the base program to the high HP setup, wouldn't you need to change impellers to keep the motor down in the torque range? I'm eager to hear more about the motor/pump mounting, like if a rail kit and some kind of pump bracing will be used. Sounds like you'll get er' ironed out to your usual excruciatingly high quality standards. Looking forward to seeing the numbers from the dual jet setup.

Froggystyle
06-21-2004, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by HighRoller
Good deal! Forgot about the high altitude part of the equation. So, when you go from the base program to the high HP setup, wouldn't you need to change impellers to keep the motor down in the torque range? I'm eager to hear more about the motor/pump mounting, like if a rail kit and some kind of pump bracing will be used. Sounds like you'll get er' ironed out to your usual excruciatingly high quality standards. Looking forward to seeing the numbers from the dual jet setup.
Thanks. We are actually using something a bit more burly than a rail kit, which was a little flimsy for this application. We are using a truss engine box, made of extruded aluminum, and mounting specially made plates to the front and rear, along with a pump truss.
Best thing about the Dual Drive is, we can change the gears to adjust for the power change. We won't be moving off of a full "A" impeller for efficiency reasons.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. We will do our best.

HighRoller
06-21-2004, 10:34 PM
Really? So you can change gears in the dual drive gearbox? Cool! Another question I had came to me in my sleep last night. What happens if one of the pump's drive gear goes away or the gearbox dies? Will it run on one pump or if the gearbox dies do you have a jet-away type device? With this combo you're putting a lot of torque through the gearbox so I was just curious. Everything sounds good, especially if you can put some cruisin gears in that thing and get 50 mph at 3500 RPM! I'm all about driving 100 miles in a day on the river!

Froggystyle
06-22-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by HighRoller
Really? So you can change gears in the dual drive gearbox? Cool! Another question I had came to me in my sleep last night. What happens if one of the pump's drive gear goes away or the gearbox dies? Will it run on one pump or if the gearbox dies do you have a jet-away type device? With this combo you're putting a lot of torque through the gearbox so I was just curious. Everything sounds good, especially if you can put some cruisin gears in that thing and get 50 mph at 3500 RPM! I'm all about driving 100 miles in a day on the river!
You can anyway... we have a 125 gallon tank.
Gear change is a trick though. Gary Smith has to do quite a bit of developing to get to that point where it is feasable for anything but an OEM application, but fortunately for me, we are using the same one in every boat, so the volume will be there to warrant the expense of the development.
Oh, and if a gear lets go, I think it would just fail the whole deal. From what I have seen of the box though, gearbox failure is one of the last things I need to concern myself with. This thing (the 1000 hp version) is frickin bombproof.

Taylorman
06-24-2004, 07:47 AM
More engine pictures and details please. Ive been following this thread for a while and its very informative.

Infomaniac
06-24-2004, 09:15 AM
My fault on any recent updates. Have been very busy.

welk2party
07-21-2004, 09:30 AM
Lets get some more updates info...dying to see the latest.

Froggystyle
07-22-2004, 06:54 AM
We can get pics on the latest, but what you can look forward to is engine #2 getting crated up with #1 in Info's cool daddy engine crates and shipped out here for the test and tune!
One fired up Froggy :p :D

HighRoller
07-22-2004, 09:48 PM
I think you need a 522 N/A option for the "GirleyMen" who want an outdrive. BTW, any details on the exhaust you can share yet?

Infomaniac
07-24-2004, 12:14 PM
My fault for no updates. I will get it done as time permits.
I did take pics but not in the detail of documenting the first one.
The engine "pods" as us Okies call them are way cool.
HR I cannot speak for Trident with 100% accuracy but the exhaust is as unique and high tech as any other part of the boat.
As far as options?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I would suspect options will be at a minimum.
Not to compare brands but: My experience with Cougar is. They will sell boats without power but they insist on rigging certain aspects of the boat. And for Gel coat schemes, Cougar will not do a scheme that they feel is unattractive. Regardless of how much money you have.
My point being, Cougar will not sell a boat that has the potential of ill handling or looking like crap. As a result, they can tell you where most of their boats are. just ask them where the fastest v-drive Cougar tunnel is. :D
Trident will keep close control of many of the important characteristics of their boats.
Wes will speak up if I am Mistaken about any of these details.

Infomaniac
08-11-2004, 05:37 PM
I have been behind posting the Trident engine build. Here is a little that will catch up some.
Getting ready to send two engines to Trident. Will dyno them with the blower and fuel injection systems in a few weeks at Gary Teague's place.
I wanted to warm them up, leak check and retorque everything before shipping. I do not have the blower, valve covers, ignition or fuel systems that will be installed on them in the boat so I warmed them up N/A with some stuff I had lying around.
They will have custom valve covers, A Whipple intercooled 3.3 and MEFI 4 based EFI system. What is on it in the video will do just to get some heat in it so I can look things over.
Ran the water hose to a "Y" valve and used a 160 degree thermostat. When the thermostat opens it just duimps out at a #8 hose rate.
Pretty nasty sounding 7.7:1 family boat engine. The blower will smooth it out a bit. Maybe I cheated a little with the fuel mixture to make it sound healthier? Nah !!
Warm up video (http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/211Trident1_Warm_Up.wmv)

Froggystyle
08-12-2004, 01:26 PM
My fault for no updates. I will get it done as time permits.
I did take pics but not in the detail of documenting the first one.
The engine "pods" as us Okies call them are way cool.
HR I cannot speak for Trident with 100% accuracy but the exhaust is as unique and high tech as any other part of the boat.
As far as options?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I would suspect options will be at a minimum.
Not to compare brands but: My experience with Cougar is. They will sell boats without power but they insist on rigging certain aspects of the boat. And for Gel coat schemes, Cougar will not do a scheme that they feel is unattractive. Regardless of how much money you have.
My point being, Cougar will not sell a boat that has the potential of ill handling or looking like crap. As a result, they can tell you where most of their boats are. just ask them where the fastest v-drive Cougar tunnel is. :D
Trident will keep close control of many of the important characteristics of their boats.
Wes will speak up if I am Mistaken about any of these details.
Couldn't have said it any better.
Most people don't have the experience or the ability to step back and see the life of the boat laid out in front of them, including the inevitable re-sale. An ugly, or underpowered boat will drag down the overall value and perception of the entire fleet. I won't let that happen from the factory.
And High Roller... ride in a dual drive and the last thing you will be thinking about is how to get an I/O version...

HighRoller
08-12-2004, 02:00 PM
Don't worry, Wes. My comment was in pure jest. I was referring to those "Girley Men" who feel insecure without a propeller on the back of their rig.

Infomaniac
08-26-2004, 07:07 AM
Well the warm up video is on this page just a few posts above.
Trying to put closure to my part of this build thread. Maybe there still might be some discussion.
If you have ever wondered if an engine would just flip right over if you started it up on a portable roll around stand. The answer is NO.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/test1.jpg
The Marine Assault "Shipping Pods" The engine sits right in the insert. Strap it in and set the lid on. Reuse them until the trucking lines trash them up.
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/pod1.jpg
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/pod2.jpg
http://www.riverratlife.com/uploads/info/pod3.jpg