Bush take two.

[Blown 472]

6 Million to Lose Over Time Pay
And the AFL-CIO is estimating some six million workers could lose overtime pay when new federal rules go into effect on Monday. The new rules allow employers to exempt from overtime pay most workers making a salary above about $23, 660. The Bush administration circumvented Congress and changed the rules through the federal regulatory process. And though the Senate voted twice since April to block the changes, House Republican leaders blocked moves to overturn the new rules.

[572Daytona]

Two sides to every story:
The Labor Department says no more than 107,000 workers will lose overtime eligibility from the changes, but about 1.3 million will gain it.
I suspect reality is somewhere in the middle but who knows. My company stopped paying me OT a long time ago and now doesn't even give me comp time. They pretty much expect me to work 45-50 hrs/week for my salary. I guess that makes up for the time I screw around on the interent :messedup:

[eliminatedsprinter]

The AFL- CIO, now there's an unbiased, objective, and honest source of info. ;) :D :D LOL.....

[HighRoller]

Just changing OT back from 40 hrs a week to 8 hrs a day. Labor unions are bitching because now they have to work 5 8's instead of 4 10's. Lazy fukks.

[RUCAV]

I know there was some concern about public (civil) services losing OT, but thats all been changed and from what I have read, only a very small portion will actually lose anything. Good, I love me some OT.

[chub]

HighRoller, Let me get this straight. So when your in bed comfy cozy on Saturday night at 0200 and I'm at work maintaining a major banks data center so billions of dollars can be transacted daily. I shouldn't be getting OT? To that I say thank God I'm union. cause without the OT your money ain't goin nowhere. Lazy? only on my time!

[AzDon]

Folks around here are always saying a person should better themselves and are against welfare, medicare, afdc, unemployment insurance, a living minimum wage,osha, labor boards, eeoc, overtime wages, collective bargaining, and unions. Often these same people argue in favor of exporting jobs and importing workers.
While skilled and semi-skilled jobs are being exported or filled by illegals, the jobs that are left are being cut and refilled at continually declining wages.
Bettering oneself is always a vague ideal that nobody seems to be willing to provide a roadmap to. Exactly how does an entry-level person advance without starving to death first?
My free-market argument against this is that eventually there will be no market for "discretionary" goods when all the "discretionary" income has been pulled back.
My more personal, heartfelt argument, though, is that:
About 135 years ago, southern plantation owners imported, trained, housed, clothed, and fed alien workers from Africa, and believed it was their privelege to protect their "investment" in these individuals by keeping them as property rather than have the terms of this arrangement be renegotiated.
We believed it was wrong, and we changed it!
Today, we have a party in power that has successfully prevented anything resembling a livable wage to be made into law. I would respectfully argue that any employee that recieves a weeks wages that won't cover a week of living expenses at a minimum American standard, is allowing himself to be treated, economically, as less than a slave. Until we place a realistic minimum value on the labor of our citizens and place restrictions on imported products/labor, we may as well get used to the idea of supporting these folks thru social welfare programs.
I'm completely willing to pay more for American, living wage goods because more people working at a living wage means less crime, more taxpayers, fewer grifters, more people with money to shop, potentially lower taxes for a real reason.... in other words- an economy that works for everybody!

[Blown 472]

Your as Lazy as they come so how does this effect you
**** you, you dont know shit about me, so go suck your own dick you walking piece of shit.

[MagicMtnDan]

Exactly how does an entry-level person advance without starving to death first? (1)
Today, we have a party in power that has successfully prevented anything resembling a livable wage to be made into law. (2)
I'm completely willing to pay more for American, living wage goods because more people working at a living wage means less crime, more taxpayers, fewer grifters, more people with money to shop, potentially lower taxes for a real reason.... in other words- an economy that works for everybody! (3)
I probably shouldn't respond - I should just let your words sit here so people can see how deep your head is buried...in the sand.
1. Go ask the (Italians, Jews, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, Pakistanis, Mexicans, and other immigrants)! They'll tell you and probably mention things like working long, hard hours, saving money, starting their own business, etc.
2. Yeah, that Republican party sucks! They don't GIVE people anything! Hurry up and vote in all the Democrats so they can GIVE people stuff - your stuff, my stuff, everyone's stuff. Why work for stuff when they'll GIVE it to you!
3. Do you advocate making it a LAW to buy American products?! This country is what it is in part because of free market economics. Are you telling us that we should HAVE to buy American so American workers can get a "living wage?!" You clearly have an elevator that doesn't go anywhere near the top! :sqeyes:

[Blown 472]

I probably shouldn't respond - I should just let your words sit here so people can see how deep your head is buried...in the sand.
1. Go ask the (Italians, Jews, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, Pakistanis, Mexicans, and other immigrants)! They'll tell you and probably mention things like working long, hard hours, saving money, starting their own business, etc.
2. Yeah, that Republican party sucks! They don't GIVE people anything! Hurry up and vote in all the Democrats so they can GIVE people stuff - your stuff, my stuff, everyone's stuff. Why work for stuff when they'll GIVE it to you!
3. Do you advocate making it a LAW to buy American products?! This country is what it is in part because of free market economics. Are you telling us that we should HAVE to buy American so American workers can get a "living wage?!" You clearly have an elevator that doesn't go anywhere near the top! :sqeyes:
Taking your stuff? funny when klinton was in office he didn't take anything I owned, what are you talking about??

[bigq]

Taking your stuff? funny when klinton was in office he didn't take anything I owned, what are you talking about??
Just more of your income by raising taxes, but then again so did his predesessor. :notam:
What do people think the minimum wage be 20k a year, 25k, 35k? I was never told i could buy a house or a new car or raise a family on minimum wage. What should it be? A recent study suggested that it cost around 60k a year to live and raise a family in California, would that be enough?

[AzDon]

You clearly have an elevator that doesn't go anywhere near the top! :sqeyes:
But I do have a boat!!
You tightie righties always seem to love to imply that YOU will lose substantially in any scheme that helps other people. You love to warn working folks all the way down to the poverty line that electing people that care about people will cost them....
Don't even bother being objective by discussing the cost of Bush's personal war!
The reality is that the Bush tax cuts gave little or nothing to anybody that is not in the richest 5% of the population. These are the people that Bush has sold his soul to!.... Are you in the richest 5%?... Then Bush is your guy!

[572Daytona]

Per my copy of Turbo Tax 2003 the tax relief act reduced the four highest tax brackets from 27% 30% 35% and 38.6% to 25% 28% 33% and 35% in 2003. Based on the 2003 tax brackets for single filers that means essentially that you paid 2% less taxes on any income over $28,400. So Don, do 95% of the people in this country make less than $28,400? Don't forget this didn't take effect until TY 2003 so this last March was the first time we saw the break from the Clinton tax increases.

[bigq]

But I do have a boat!!
You tightie righties always seem to love to imply that YOU will lose substantially in any scheme that helps other people. You love to warn working folks all the way down to the poverty line that electing people that care about people will cost them....
Don't even bother being objective by discussing the cost of Bush's personal war!
The reality is that the Bush tax cuts gave little or nothing to anybody that is not in the richest 5% of the population. These are the people that Bush has sold his soul to!.... Are you in the richest 5%?... Then Bush is your guy!
Somebody has to pay for this higher living wage you want and i am not in the position. You make it sound like if you are a conservative, the person wants dieing people in the street and not take care of the sick. What do you believe drives people to accomplish great things? Everyone at some piont in there life needs some help, a little helping hand and I believe that the people will do it not the government. your outlook on humans as giving people must be grim.

[mickeyfinn]

Folks around here are always saying a person should better themselves and are against welfare, medicare, afdc, unemployment insurance, a living minimum wage,osha, labor boards, eeoc, overtime wages, collective bargaining, and unions. Often these same people argue in favor of exporting jobs and importing workers.
While skilled and semi-skilled jobs are being exported or filled by illegals, the jobs that are left are being cut and refilled at continually declining wages.
Bettering oneself is always a vague ideal that nobody seems to be willing to provide a roadmap to. Exactly how does an entry-level person advance without starving to death first?
hmm lets see now, how about working hard proving your worth, Not expecting to graduate from school and immediately be able to afford a lifestyle that your parents took years to develop. Sounds like you believe that the teenager working at Mcdonalds should be able to afford a car, apartment or house, utilities, clothes and still have enough left to eat on and provide for other basic necessities. Anyone here up for a $10.00 Big Mac? How about taking a job just for the experience of working. Accepting a minimum wage while still working into the market allows you to establish your work ethic and your reputation. Believe it or not a lot of people still call for references on other people and base hiring practices on these references. While people may be hesitant to give a bad reference many will answer the question "would you hire them back" if the answer is no then I don't need them either. I hire a good many people every year and it appears that those who have grown up in this age of "entitlements" expect someone to give them whatever they need so why work for it.
My free-market argument against this is that eventually there will be no market for "discretionary" goods when all the "discretionary" income has been pulled back.
My more personal, heartfelt argument, though, is that:
About 135 years ago, southern plantation owners imported, trained, housed, clothed, and fed alien workers from Africa, and believed it was their privelege to protect their "investment" in these individuals by keeping them as property rather than have the terms of this arrangement be renegotiated.
We believed it was wrong, and we changed it!
And we will change it again, If it gets to far out of hand you will see that supply and demand are still alive and well. People will begin to support the small local manufacturer or begin to do without things which they can't or won't afford. Leave the economy to the free market as much as possible and quit asking for more legislation to control it. If anything the basic concept of a free market is watered down by minimum wage requrements and other bullshit laws.
Today, we have a party in power that has successfully prevented anything resembling a livable wage to be made into law. I would respectfully argue that any employee that recieves a weeks wages that won't cover a week of living expenses at a minimum American standard, is allowing himself to be treated, economically, as less than a slave. Until we place a realistic minimum value on the labor of our citizens and place restrictions on imported products/labor, we may as well get used to the idea of supporting these folks thru social welfare programs.
get real!!!! Slaves? Is someone holding a gun to their head and making them show up for work. I can look in the local papers here and find good paying jobs available every day. It is not my fault that someone didn't get the education or spent the early part of their life screwing around instead of finding a career and developing the experience need to qualify for one of these better paying jobs.
I'm completely willing to pay more for American, living wage goods because more people working at a living wage means less crime, more taxpayers, fewer grifters, more people with money to shop, potentially lower taxes for a real reason.... in other words- an economy that works for everybody!When you figure out how much more per year you would spend allow me to save you a lot of effort and you can just send that check to me.
Whether you realize it or not you are a socialist. Asking the government to regulate incomes will effectively push the window of pay between the top and the bottom of the scale to the point where it is so narrow that working hard and giving an honest effort in an attempt to move up will seem pointless and we will eventually find ourselves in the position of a country where your career is decided at birth and your compensation will be totally regulated.

[Blown 472]

So a gubment that takes tax dollars and sends it overseas to line the pockets of kbr is better then a gubment that takes tax dollars and does things like fund skools here????

[mickeyfinn]

I don't know that I ever claimed that the government was perfect. I do believe it is better than any of the alternatives currently available in other places. I truly believe that the free enterprise system is one of the things which made this government and this country the best and I get truly concerned when I hear about others who want to move us closer and closer to what has already been proven to be an inferior government. Socialism does work if you are okay with settling for mediocre. Forcing employers to pay more than they can afford to pay is not the answer. As long as there are people willing to work why not let them work for what ever the market will bear as it is better than not working at all. I guarantee you that if everyone was forced to pay a "living wage" (whatever that means) that the business' that would be most affected would be the small businesses. There is always competition between the large companies and the small businessman and this is one of the things that helps to keep things in check. If large companies get too greedy then the small businessman starts to get a chunk of their business that is too large for them to not do something about such as reign in prices or change the way they operate. I will admit that for your everyday retail and common commodity manufacturing that the small businessman is limited to small bursts of success to be followed by being swallowed by larger companies. I am not saying this is a bad or a good thing just saying that it is.

[AzDon]

If every employer was required to pay a livable minimum, the playing field would be level for all employers. I think you are making the assumption that businesses would somehow be prevented from passing those costs to the customer, but I never said that! A certain percentage of increase could be immediately expected from ALL businesses that were in segments previously serviced by subliving-wage employees. Any business that could not promote the percieved value of their product at the new pricing probably wouldn't make it!

[Delta Jets]

Last time i checked Gubment pay money to kbr. Then kbr pay thousands of employeeeeees. Then employeeeeees pays house notes boat notes food notes kid notes etc. the people that recieve this pay pay their Employeeeeeeeees who pay all thier notes and so on also i think the dreaded KBR is also a publicly traded co. so why bitch go buy some stock and share in the wealth oh yea you can also buy BIG OIL CO. Stocks won't be long you can be in that 5% bracket

[mickeyfinn]

If every employer was required to pay a livable minimum, the playing field would be level for all employers. I think you are making the assumption that businesses would somehow be prevented from passing those costs to the customer, but I never said that! A certain percentage of increase could be immediately expected from ALL businesses that were in segments previously serviced by subliving-wage employees. Any business that could not promote the percieved value of their product at the new pricing probably wouldn't make it!
You are right price increases will be seen EVERYWHERE. It would encourage more jobs to move out of this country and cause some industries to close completely. Fast food if you have to pay a whopper flopper 20 or 22k per year? I don't think so. Convenience stores are already priced so high due to the cost of limited shelf space. If the clerks were paid more what would happen? What about smaller things like life guards at public pools? These are typically high school kids working a summer job. Do we pay them big dollars too? Come on AZDON get real. Jobs are paying what the market will allow. Too many people wanting too few jobs then wages go down. Too many jobs and too few people? Wages go up. It is a cycle. Quit asking the government to control things. If this is what you want then move to a country that is already operating this way. After you have done that and worked as an employee in that country for a while then come back and tell us how great an idea it is. Trying to legislate something like this would turn into just another one of the out of control plans that the government already has. You would have to make so many exclusions that the plant would wind up being ineffective. You would also wind up eliminating many "entry level" jobs which people use as a foothold to get into a company. This country grew to be a great place without all these rules on business. Started enacting rules and things started to slide the other way. The more rules we enact the further we will continue to slide. Let's start lifting these rules and see if the country starts making up some lost ground. Why do you want to put more rules into place when history already shows that to make greatness you just need to remove some of the rules.

[AzDon]

If we strip all regulation away and let everybody slash-and-burn out of control, ALL the jobs that pay anything will have been deported or filled by low-cost newcomers. The fruits of all this low-cost labor will (naturally) expect full access to our consumer market, but there won't be anyone left here with enough income to buy these goods.
Ever hear of the Great Depression? It was the result of out-of-control industrialization that had no vision for building a society, just exploiting cheap help without control. When they were all done and there was nobody left standing to buy their stuff, they closed and went on vacation (if they were lucky enough to not have their money in banks) And left it to the government to figure out how to put people back to work and re-create the market for consumer goods.
If you don't like the society that was created by liberal thinkers in the aftermath of the depression, you should move to Mexico, where the government has never meddled in trying to create a society with spendable income....They actually now have a president whose answer to their problems is to "rent" their citizens out across our border as cheap laborers!
I have a question for the small business owners here..... When American business has finished reducing every single American to Burger King wages either directly, or through price competition, WHO ARE YOU GOING TO SELL YOUR GOODS OR SERVICES TO??

[steelcomp]

I don't care one way lib or conservative, except that the facts speak for themselves. Forty years of liberal policies, forty years of liberal majority in our government, forty years of nothing but failure. This country hasn't solved any of it's significant social or economic problems in any way. Welfare is a disaster. Our constitution is assaulted and ignored on a daily basis. Our schools have become portals for liberal indoctrination and what is called "education" today is absurd, and what is tought in our schools border lines on lib. propoganda. Political correctness is a smoke screen for non-accountability, and that's the lib. motto. No accountability. No responsibility, and absolutely no regard for or interest in the truth. I was not raised in a political family. I have just observed. I have listened. I have seen the results, and I just don't get it how what is so completely obvious, is so obscure to some...to many. I hear the issues and the arguements, and it never fails, that it'll be a lib that starts with the foul language, the personal insults, the derogatory comments, but never addressing the issues. This isn't a slam on libs, it's just an observation. It's what I've come to learn, and see, and if it offends someone, I hope that person looks around, and realizes with what and whom they are aligning themselves, and the direction they are heading. I think it's a good idea to step away from the tree, and take a look at the forest (fire). I am not interested in "politics", nor am I interested in partisanship. Those two things serve only one purpose, and that is to devide people, and turn them against eachother. I'm not going to debate on political "issues" because they are really not the "issues" that people need to be concerned with. There is a much bigger picture here, and we ALL are going to suffer in a much bigger way if the changes that need making don't come about soon. Fortunately, the tide seems to be turning. Those things that this country were founded on and which made us the great nation that we are, (for this nation is the people, not a place) are being destroyed one by one at an accelerated rate...the most important of which is our freedom...that inalianable right given to us by the God that created every man equal, and the belief in just that. It's ironic that the freedom that so many died for for us to live in, is the very right which is being exploited so harshly against those who believe in it, and it's origin and authority.
This is interesting. It's a little "broader" perspective of what you are all talking about, but the indications and direction whichwe are moving in are there. Please every one read this.
>At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution,
>in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at the
>University of Edinborough ) had this to say about "The Fall of The
>Athenian Republic" some 2,000
> years prior.
>
>
> "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot
> exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will
> continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that
> they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
> From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates
> who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the
> result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
>fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."
>
> "The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the
> beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200
> years, these nations always progressed through the following
>sequence:
> From Bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great
>courage;
> From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance
>too complacency;
> From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence;
> From dependence back into bondage."
> Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St.
>Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most
>recent Presidential election:
>Population of counties won by:
> Gore=127 million
> Bush=143 million
> Square miles of land won by:
> Gore= 580,000
> Bush=22,427,000
> States won by:
> Gore=19
> Bush=29
> Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
> Gore=13.2
> Bush= 2.1
> Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush
> won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this
>great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living
>in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..."
>
>
>Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "complacency and"
>apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some 40
>percent of the nation's population already having reached the
>"governmental dependency" phase.
>
>
>
>Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake
>in this Election Year and that apathy is the greatest danger to our
>freedom.
> God Bless America!

[steelcomp]

If every employer was required to pay a livable minimum, the playing field would be level for all employers. I think you are making the assumption that businesses would somehow be prevented from passing those costs to the customer, but I never said that! A certain percentage of increase could be immediately expected from ALL businesses that were in segments previously serviced by subliving-wage employees. Any business that could not promote the percieved value of their product at the new pricing probably wouldn't make it!
That is so socialistic in it's thinking that it's scary. The whole idea of a minimum wage being somethjing someone can "live" on is rediculous. Where would be the incentive to move forward? Minimum wage jopbs are not meant to be professions...they are entry level, beginning, stepping stone places for people to get into the work force. Employers are already (and have been for years) crying because they can't afford those wages.
There is no equal playing field in a capitalistic or free enterprise system. To try and create that is one of those destructive ideas that is eating away at this country's greatness for it's people, and is definately part of the lib. agenda.

[mickeyfinn]

Haven't seen you post here before steel, Don't know if you used to post by another name or not but welcome anyway. Just so you know we can argue until you are blue in the face and we won't change the mind of some of the folks here pushing the liberal/social agenda. Trying to tell these people that having a great place to live and prosper is not as easy as voting themselves a raise is kinda like trying to convince all the poor ignorant people on the web that when they get the email from africa telling them that if they give up their banking information they will become instant millionaires is a scam. It's too good to be true but people fall for it everyday, just like the liberals/socialist continue to foster more and more votes. This country has approached the dependancy phase and people who are looking to push these agendas are really only looking towards the instant gratification and do not realize that they are dooming their children or grandchildren to cleaning up a very big mess.
I would love to see a law passed that made it so that anyone who pulled money from a non-contributory government fund during the term of any office up for election not be allowed to vote. This would keep the decision making to the people who are a productive part of this society. Of course I realize this will never happen. It is more likely that death row inmates will regain the right to vote.
Well welcome to the boards and have fun but don't look for folks like azdon to all the sudden start making sense. :D :D

[steelcomp]

Haven't seen you post here before steel, Don't know if you used to post by another name or not but welcome anyway. Just so you know we can argue until you are blue in the face and we won't change the mind of some of the folks here pushing the liberal/social agenda. Trying to tell these people that having a great place to live and prosper is not as easy as voting themselves a raise is kinda like trying to convince all the poor ignorant people on the web that when they get the email from africa telling them that if they give up their banking information they will become instant millionaires is a scam. It's too good to be true but people fall for it everyday, just like the liberals/socialist continue to foster more and more votes. This country has approached the dependancy phase and people who are looking to push these agendas are really only looking towards the instant gratification and do not realize that they are dooming their children or grandchildren to cleaning up a very big mess.
I would love to see a law passed that made it so that anyone who pulled money from a non-contributory government fund during the term of any office up for election not be allowed to vote. This would keep the decision making to the people who are a productive part of this society. Of course I realize this will never happen. It is more likely that death row inmates will regain the right to vote.
Well welcome to the boards and have fun but don't look for folks like azdon to all the sudden start making sense. :D :D
Thanks Mick...posted as motorhead on the RJB site...sort of new to the board here. I know what you're sayin about changing people's minds. I prefer to just try and present them with objective info, and let them make their own choices. Problem is, when the objective info flys in the face of their agenda, and there isn't any real rebut on their part that is valid or true, they attack the messenger. Look at the tactics they're trying to use against the group of Swift Boat Vets exposing Kerry for the liar he is. They're trying to shut them up, instead of calmly addressing the issue, because they know that there is no answer other than he lied! He has what, 5 different versions of his story about being in Cambodia for Christmas? Even Kerry is accusing the group of being funded by Bush, who himself has expresed his dislike for adds like theirs (the SW Vets). Talk about selective sensorship! Where was the GOP outcry against Michael Mooer's POS fictional movie they called a documentary? It was there, you just never heard it through the main stream liberal media. I'm still waiting for Kerry to anaswer the SB Vets' claims. He won't. He's a real piece of work. If that's the best the libs have to offer, it's no wonder they're panicking!
I just don't get it, how what's so obvious, is so obscure.
Thanks again for the "welcome". Should be interesting.

[AzDon]

I hear the issues and the arguements, and it never fails, that it'll be a lib that starts with the foul language, the personal insults, the derogatory comments, but never addressing the issues. This isn't a slam on libs, it's just an observation. ]
Welcome! I'm not sure where you have been hangin out, but around here I've been called every name in the book when the person I'm having a discussion with runs out of logical arguments. The way I look at it, It's at that point that I've won the debate because that kind of behavior is an indication that the other guy's ammo is gone!
I will not resort to namecalling or insults if we disagree... I'd like to think we can be civil and friendly despite disagreeing except that it has been my perception that most folks here that disagree with me want to see me dead over simple disagreement. Being conservative, you will get along fine here, but I'm not treated with much civility around here. In reality, I often feel threatened!

[steelcomp]

Welcome! I'm not sure where you have been hangin out, but around here I've been called every name in the book when the person I'm having a discussion with runs out of logical arguments. The way I look at it, It's at that point that I've won the debate because that kind of behavior is an indication that the other guy's ammo is gone!
I will not resort to namecalling or insults if we disagree... I'd like to think we can be civil and friendly despite disagreeing except that it has been my perception that most folks here that disagree with me want to see me dead over simple disagreement. Being conservative, you will get along fine here, but I'm not treated with much civility around here. In reality, I often feel threatened!
I've been reading the forums for a while, reg'd just recently.
I appreciate and respect your right to your opinion. I also understand most folks attitudes toward your way of thinking, as it is that which is the threat. Your way of thinking and those who you align yourself with threaten the very fabric and foundation of the liberties that SO many gave their lives for which are systematically being taken away from us by the liberal left and their agenda. Your way of thinking is frightening to those of us who so dearly value the freedom of our democracy, and the liberties that go along with it. Your way of thinking threatens our life styles, it ignores our Constitution, it threatens the future of our children's lives and the freedom's they will or won't have. You insult those who stood against the evil forces that have tried to take this away from us, and you discrace their sacrafice. You dishonor our country's heritage and it's history by not recognising the greatness we achieved through the belief of an inherant freedom we were all given by He who created us, not by the laws of a government, or the decisions of man, except through the laws written by those who had the vision and wisdom which they set in place to protect and preserve what we have. (Our Constitution) Your way of thinking and those who you align yourself with are dangerous, and if it were possible to conjeal them into a mass, could be considered an enemy to this country, and that which it stands for. One nation, Under God!
I challange you to read the Communist Manifesto, and measure the parallels between it, and what the lib left agenda is, and where it has taken this country. I challange you to comment on Prof. Olson's observations regarding the last election which I posted earlier, and offer som explainations.
I often wonder if those of you who share the same mind set really understand who and what it is that you are supporting. If you truely understand the motivation behind those at the top of who you align yourself with. It's not American. It's as socialistic and communistic as it can be. And you feel threatened?
Interesting. Appropriate, IMO.

[ratso]

...great post steelcomp. good to see you here...

[Charley]

<------ Steelcomps newest Fan

[dean51267]

Anyone who can not figure that out is an idiot, this law changes very little, it simply brings laws up to date with what the real world is doing.

[HighRoller]

HighRoller, Let me get this straight. So when your in bed comfy cozy on Saturday night at 0200 and I'm at work maintaining a major banks data center so billions of dollars can be transacted daily. I shouldn't be getting OT? To that I say thank God I'm union. cause without the OT your money ain't goin nowhere. Lazy? only on my time!
Chub, please do explain what entitles you to OT just because you work on a weekend or at night? NEWS FLASH! Millions of people do it every week. Ever heard of the night shift? Should everyone who doesn't work banker's hours get triple time? Should we throw in more sick time because you missed SNL this week doing what you get paid for?
This is why I despise Unions. They make the common worker think he deserves a gold medal just for showing up at his job. And put out effort, or work past 5PM? HOLY CRAP! Stop the presses. For your information Chub, you'll get no sympathy from me for working at 0200. BooHoo, cry me a river. Been there, done that. The only difference is I didn't have some brain-dead Sopranos wanna-be extorting extra money from my company so he can justify sucking the life out of my paycheck and tell me when I can work and when I have to stay at home.

[HighRoller]

I also have one more question. They mention that 6 million would "lose" OT pay. How many will "gain" it? Another half-truth from the Democrats at the AFL-CIO.

[OGShocker]

If every employer was required to pay a livable minimum, the playing field would be level for all employers. I think you are making the assumption that businesses would somehow be prevented from passing those costs to the customer, but I never said that! A certain percentage of increase could be immediately expected from ALL businesses that were in segments previously serviced by subliving-wage employees. Any business that could not promote the percieved value of their product at the new pricing probably wouldn't make it!
WTF is "livable? $50.00 an hour. You might be a good person but, your Ideas are just bad. :rolleyes:

[HighRoller]

I guess we as a society should coddle those working in low level jobs instead of them lifting themselves out of those jobs into well paying positions with benefits. Bill Gates was a success because we all agreed to buy his stuff and give him millions, not because he strived to educate himself and find a way to hone his skills to the point he could develop and innovate a groundbreaking product. Whatever. Wake up AZDon. Just because you dream of making 50 bucks an hour to drive a truck doesn't mean we sympathize with you. From an ex truck driver.

[AzDon]

I'm not radically against any free-market approach to employment. If a living wage were established as law, nobody would hold a gun on a businessman and force him to hire "x" number of people or any at all! He would be free to decide if the position could be justified at the expected wage.... This is simply a human rights issue that would change the oversupply of willing help into a "qualifications" contest rather than "how cheap will you work?"
I don't believe any job is economically justifiable if it can't pay a living wage. The proof of this is that a single mother working full time at minimum wage falls WAY below the income threshold to qualify for virtually every social program, meaning that her cheap-ass employer is subsidized by the taxpayers in providing for her and her child. Many argue that "those jobs are for for students that live at home". Oh really? Does that mean they discriminate against single mothers? And when they hire students, aren't they REALLY admitting that they expect the employer of another family member (of that student) to provide for the living costs of their employee that they are too cheap to provide?

[Charley]

I don't believe any job is economically justifiable if it can't pay a living wage.
That is utterly ridiculous....No it's actually ignorant..

[Blown 472]

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/toys.html

[Charley]

..................

[steelcomp]

AzDon,
You ever wonder why there's so many single mothers out there? What is it about the break down of our society that is allowing this to occur? Should we all pay the price for the majority of their bad decision making or plain lack of moral standards? That's a HUGE issue and one that costs each and every one of us every day. IMO it's the effect of the liberalisation of our society, and the mindset of the children it's producing.
Hey, if it feels good, do it!!

[steelcomp]

If a living wage were established as law, nobody would hold a gun on a businessman and force him to hire "x" number of people or any at all!
What the hell are you talking about, man? Having a living wage law established would exactly be holding a gun on a business man!!! Do you have ANY idea how many small businesses would fold and what that would do to this country??
You don't make sense!

[AzDon]

If a living wage were established as law, nobody would hold a gun on a businessman and force him to hire "x" number of people or any at all!
What the hell are you talking about, man? Having a living wage law established would exactly be holding a gun on a business man!!! Do you have ANY idea how many small businesses would fold and what that would do to this country??
You don't make sense!
I re-read my post and I think I stated pretty clearly that a businessman's staffing needs would be his business. How is that extortion? The manpower cost is a minimum of "x" per hour....you can hire as many as you want or none at all!
Why can't people just say that they understand where I'm coming from and state that they disagree and believe that it's okay to pay people less than it costs to live in exchange for providing a service that the employer (hopefully) makes a profit on?

[mickeyfinn]

It says what it says! An employer would not be forced to hire ANY help that he thought was economically unjustifiable..... I'm not advocating that any businessman should be forced to employ anybody.... He's still free to make ALL the choices for his business!
Okay so is this what you are saying?
If I own a fleet of tractors and trailers and have someone who manufactures widgets looking for a truck line to haul them calls and tells me "look I can ship these by rail for 30 cents per pound and if you can do better I'll use you" So I go to my calculator and figure that with my fuel and fixed costs that I can't afford to pay the driver but the equivilent of 5.00/hour. The new "living wage" has been established at 6.50/hour. So under your plan the driver that may have been perfectly willing to take the load rather than do nothing will sit at home and have no income due to the fact that I can't offer him a "living wage". Yeah that sounlds good. That is certainly the free enterprise system at work. Now the guy is going to have no income instead of a smaller income. I know the numbers may not reflect reality but the point still comes across. You are not forcing the employer to hire anyone but you would definitely be prohibiting him from hiring people.

[572Daytona]

It would also add a lot of inflationary pressure to our economy, not only would business have to pay their employees more, they would also need to pay more for all of the equipment they use, i.e. computers, etc. Businesses would be forced to either raise prices to be competitive (inflation), relocate oversees (we all lose) or cease doing business altogether. Look what happened with the Steel industry in the 60's and the 70's, what was a vibrant business in the US that was paying very good wages (courtesy of the unions) to all employees whether they were a 30 year vertern or on a summer break duing high school, pretty much was forced into bankruptcy as it became cheaper to buy steel from overseas. The only way to prevent this would be with a very protectionist policy with high tariffs and import duties. Sounds like it would be a very isolationist policy as well, I thought the dems want to get along with the rest of the world, not hole up within our borders.
When I look at people around here where I live it seems to me that anyone willing to work full time and be a responsible dependable worker has a living wage. If you can't make it where you are living perhaps its time to move to somewhere that has better employment and lowers costs of living. I know I had to move my family from Massachusettes when both my wife and I lost our jobs and we are now much better off financially than had we stayed up there and kept our jobs.

[AzDon]

Okay so is this what you are saying?
If I own a fleet of tractors and trailers and have someone who manufactures widgets looking for a truck line to haul them calls and tells me "look I can ship these by rail for 30 cents per pound and if you can do better I'll use you" So I go to my calculator and figure that with my fuel and fixed costs that I can't afford to pay the driver but the equivilent of 5.00/hour. The new "living wage" has been established at 6.50/hour. So under your plan the driver that may have been perfectly willing to take the load rather than do nothing will sit at home and have no income due to the fact that I can't offer him a "living wage". Yeah that sounlds good. That is certainly the free enterprise system at work. Now the guy is going to have no income instead of a smaller income. I know the numbers may not reflect reality but the point still comes across. You are not forcing the employer to hire anyone but you would definitely be prohibiting him from hiring people.
This actually is at the heart of the problem.... Deregulation in transportation opened the floodgates to predatory competition in transportation where "deep pocket" competitors are openly allowed to provide services below cost as an inticement for competitors unwilling to work below cost to leave the industry. Where most of these predatory transport companies try to make their sales practices balance is the cost of labor category. Yet nobody ever questions the rising cost of fuel or insurance when calculating what "cost" is! Why is it always the help that is extorted into sacrafice?
I believe that certain industries (such as transportation) that are classically predatory need some oversight in this area. Unusually low pricing should be proven profitable in order to be allowable. It WAS this way before 1980!
I'm going to answer your question by stating that I HAVE stayed home more days than I've cared to because the company I work for REFUSES TO MUDWRESTLE AND I SUPPORT THEM IN THIS! We actually spent two years loading our cheap-ass competitor's trucks from our rail siding. Funny thing though, all their drivers wanted to work for us, because our pay is better! Eventually that company surrendered and retreated....they were tired of losing money! The customer had a real hard time with the idea of coming back to us at the old pricing, but they had no choice!
If American business would simply promote themselves on quality (refusing to mudwrestle) and petition the government for protection from unfair competition, maybe they could stop feelin the need to make their employees pay the bill for their choices!

[steelcomp]

Hey Don, nobody "makes" an employee do anything. Period.

[Jeanyus]

As an employer, I have never looked at myself as a predator. Give me a break.
I have noticed as an employer, that some employees, are on time, motivated, intelligent, and have a good work ethic. These are the people that get rewarded with more pay. I also have had people that are always a few minutes late,take looong breaks, have a bad attitude, and are unproductive. These are the people that will never get a raise in my company and hopefully, will do me a favor and quit. Under your livung wage plan, I would have to take money away from the empoyee that is working, and give it to the guy, who is drinking coffee, and talking to someone, he has no business talking to. Does not seem fair to me.
Hey moter, its me Z

[Charley]

some employees, are on time, motivated, intelligent, and have a good work ethic. These are the people that get rewarded with more pay. I also have had people that are always a few minutes late,take looong breaks, have a bad attitude, and are unproductive. These are the people that will never get a raise in my company and hopefully, will do me a favor and quit.
Great Points

[Charley]

AZ Don.... I would just love to see you try to run a successful business in todays market and economy.... what a joke that would be! I'm so sure you would hire all single mothers and pay them $22 and hour while trying to compete against all your competitors paying 1/2 that wage!! No, you would fail, but it's easy for you to call business owners "cheap-ass employers" in the process :confused: ... Ya I know what yer thinkin... we need to just make the other business owner pay that same $22 hr and it will work out.... Brilliant! you think alot of jobs are goin overseas now?? :hammerhea
You see when it comes to running a small business the owner is the one taking all the chances... we dont have Unions that beat up our competitors because shit aint FAIR... we dont bitch, moan and cry like a pussy liberal might...there isn't time and even if there was we can't change reality. SO... we scrap and claw and innovatively find ways to make it work for a profit. Accountability on an individual basis is whats hurting our society. Wake up Don... if being a business owner is so f- ing ez and so profitable then just realize this country affords that right to anyone willing to give it a try!

[steelcomp]

Zev! Hey dude...thought I recognised the avatar. Man, this guy just dosen't get it.
Don, I don't know you from Adam, but it's clear that you are satisfied with being one of the "huddled masses". If your mentality were law, there would be nothing in this world to ever strive for. It would all be the same. There would be no ambition on anyone's part to excell. There would be no incentive to sacrafice, because there would be no reward. All would be equal. No entreprenurs, no pioneers, no achievers. The gov't would make it so every lazy, non ambitious, blood sucking taker (not giver) would have the same benefits and life style as those who risk, work, take chances, and have vision.
There are countries like that in this world, but not ours. Their economies are in a shambles. Ours is a country that rewards those who choose to stand out, and take risks. Do you realize that more than 94 out of 100 people in this country have a job? And that of the 5 or so that don't, three of them don't want one, because they know big brother will carry their ass? That says that only two out of every hundred people in this country are legitimately out of work. This administration has brought in the best economic figures across the board in TWENTY YEARS! Why? Becauase, for a start, we have a president who recognizes the power of the people in running their own lives, and gave them back some of their money. It worked, and has worked every time it has been tried.
We don't need the gov't sticking it's noses in our daily affairs. We do need them to protect us from things like 911 happening again. That's really the only job the gov't has, is to protect it's people from foreign attack. We can do a pretty damn good job of running things from within.

[steelcomp]

Charlie, Blwn 472, Mickey, 572, Zev, all you guys (and others). You're great Americans.
Don, I think I'm going to back out, here. I find myself wanting to say some pretty harsh things...harsher than I posted on the other threads, and it's clear that you don't get it, nor will you. You haven't addressed a single issue that has been presented to you, at least not by me, and that's typical. You keep this petty arguement going on business and what you think should be. It's not an opinion that you're wrong, it's a fact, but you, being you and where you are in life, doing whatever it is that you do, will never understand that. You wake up in the morning, read the liberal media, take what it says as fact, and that's what you base your arguement on. You sound like a parrot, and obviously have no real life experience on which to base any of what you say, or you wouldn't say it. You sit there in your little comfort zone, taking no risks, making no sacrafices, yet, you sound like you want to tell everyone what's wrong with the way things are. That's not right, man. That's not right.

[Wicky]

The AFL- CIO, now there's an unbiased, objective, and honest source of info. ;) :D :D LOL.....
Say no more!!!! The crats are squirming in their shorts!!!!
Sick of paying for the crack babies and Illegals and the HUMAN SPONGES!!
Mow,
Wicky
Tree huggers SUCK. AZ DON is so caught up in his party he doesn't even realize he is a HUGGER!!!!

[INXS]

Funny to see your post, I was just thinking the same thoughts. I'm working another 2 pm to 6 am bouble wondering what free-loading Scum I'm surportting!

[angry dad]

Say no more!!!! The crats are squirming in their shorts!!!!
Sick of paying for the crack babies and Illegals and the HUMAN SPONGES!!
Mow,
Wicky
Tree huggers SUCK. AZ DON is so caught up in his party he doesn't even realize he is a HUGGER!!!!eff them!! bush 04!!!!!!!!!!!

[OGShocker]

I think therefore I vote REPUBLICAN!

[Jeanyus]

Hey Steelcomp meet Azdon. I gave up debating with him. It's like you said he's a parrot, another slippery liberal that points out things that they think are wrong and offers no solutions, or rediculous solitions. Example: Azdon you are one or more of the following. Please choose 3.
1 Moron
2 retarded
3 Idiot
4 super dork
5 flake
6 communist
Azdon since I am letting you choose,then that means you are calling yourself names.
I have not resorted to name calling, therefore I have won the debate.
See what I mean ?

[steelcomp]

Hey Steelcomp meet Azdon. I gave up debating with him. It's like you said he's a parrot, another slippery liberal that points out things that they think are wrong and offers no solutions, or rediculous solitions. Example: Azdon you are one or more of the following. Please choose 3.
1 Moron
2 retarded
3 Idiot
4 super dork
5 flake
6 communist
Azdon since I am letting you choose,then that means you are calling yourself names.
I have not resorted to name calling, therefore I have won the debate.
See what I mean ?
Seems clear to me!!! :smile:

[AzDon]

. Example: Azdon you are one or more of the following. Please choose 3.
1 Moron
2 retarded
3 Idiot
4 super dork
5 flake
6 communist
Azdon since I am letting you choose,then that means you are calling yourself names.
I have not resorted to name calling, therefore I have won the debate.
See what I mean ?
When You say "You are"......THAT IS NAMECALLING......

[AzDon]

[QUOTE=steelcomp] You wake up in the morning, read the liberal media, take what it says as fact, and that's what you base your arguement on. You sound like a parrot, and obviously have no real life experience on which to base any of what you say, or you wouldn't say it.QUOTE]
I do not read or watch any partisan media AT ALL! I read the Havasu News Herald (real liberal? NOT!) The Arizona Republic, and sometimes USA Today when I'm traveling. I am not regurgitating anyone elses opinions- I have developed most of my talking points on my own based on my own observations of the plight of folks below median income. If my stuff sounds familiar, it's because others have made the same observations!

[AzDon]

I've been reading the forums for a while, reg'd just recently.
I appreciate and respect your right to your opinion. I also understand most folks attitudes toward your way of thinking, as it is that which is the threat. Your way of thinking and those who you align yourself with threaten the very fabric and foundation of the liberties that SO many gave their lives for which are systematically being taken away from us by the liberal left and their agenda. Your way of thinking is frightening to those of us who so dearly value the freedom of our democracy, and the liberties that go along with it. Your way of thinking threatens our life styles, it ignores our Constitution, it threatens the future of our children's lives and the freedom's they will or won't have. You insult those who stood against the evil forces that have tried to take this away from us, and you discrace their sacrafice. You dishonor our country's heritage and it's history by not recognising the greatness we achieved through the belief of an inherant freedom we were all given by He who created us, not by the laws of a government, or the decisions of man, except through the laws written by those who had the vision and wisdom which they set in place to protect and preserve what we have. (Our Constitution) Your way of thinking and those who you align yourself with are dangerous, and if it were possible to conjeal them into a mass, could be considered an enemy to this country, and that which it stands for. One nation, Under God!
I challange you to read the Communist Manifesto, and measure the parallels between it, and what the lib left agenda is, and where it has taken this country. I challange you to comment on Prof. Olson's observations regarding the last election which I posted earlier, and offer som explainations.
I often wonder if those of you who share the same mind set really understand who and what it is that you are supporting. If you truely understand the motivation behind those at the top of who you align yourself with. It's not American. It's as socialistic and communistic as it can be. And you feel threatened?
Interesting. Appropriate, IMO.
Immediately after commenting on how liberals immediately turn to insults and foul language for absence of a valid argument, you unleash the meanest, opinionated, partisan piece of shit of a post and then say it's appropriate that I should feel threatened for debating my beliefs.... You really have no objectivity at all!

[AzDon]

Zev! Hey dude...thought I recognised the avatar. Man, this guy just dosen't get it.
Don, I don't know you from Adam, but it's clear that you are satisfied with being one of the "huddled masses". If your mentality were law, there would be nothing in this world to ever strive for. It would all be the same. There would be no ambition on anyone's part to excell. There would be no incentive to sacrafice, because there would be no reward. All would be equal. No entreprenurs, no pioneers, no achievers. The gov't would make it so every lazy, non ambitious, blood sucking taker (not giver) would have the same benefits and life style as those who risk, work, take chances, and have vision.
There are countries like that in this world, but not ours. Their economies are in a shambles. Ours is a country that rewards those who choose to stand out, and take risks. Do you realize that more than 94 out of 100 people in this country have a job? And that of the 5 or so that don't, three of them don't want one, because they know big brother will carry their ass? That says that only two out of every hundred people in this country are legitimately out of work. This administration has brought in the best economic figures across the board in TWENTY YEARS! Why? Becauase, for a start, we have a president who recognizes the power of the people in running their own lives, and gave them back some of their money. It worked, and has worked every time it has been tried.
We don't need the gov't sticking it's noses in our daily affairs. We do need them to protect us from things like 911 happening again. That's really the only job the gov't has, is to protect it's people from foreign attack. We can do a pretty damn good job of running things from within.
Then you go on to explain at great lengths that I'm sympathetic towards deadbeats after I clearly stated that I have no use for them...
The subject of my posts was the inhumanity of sub-living wages.... NEWS FLASH: Deadbeats don't work, so a wage debate wouldn't be about them, WOULD IT?

[Jeanyus]

When You say "You are"......THAT IS NAMECALLING......
You slippery lib did it again.

[AzDon]

AZ Don.... I would just love to see you try to run a successful business in todays market and economy.... what a joke that would be! I'm so sure you would hire all single mothers and pay them $22 and hour while trying to compete against all your competitors paying 1/2 that wage!! No, you would fail, but it's easy for you to call business owners "cheap-ass employers" in the process :confused: ... Ya I know what yer thinkin... we need to just make the other business owner pay that same $22 hr and it will work out.... Brilliant! you think alot of jobs are goin overseas now?? :hammerhea
That's a fair enough question that I'm more than willing to answer.... I subcontracted a truck to a trucking company for three years about ten years ago. It had initially looked okay on paper, but the reality was that my percentage of that company's lousy rates only covered truck expenses, but no wages. There was no way to fix the problem, so I stopped providing the service!
I respect the freedom that a businessman has to make his own business decisions and feel that he entitled to a fair rate of return on their time, risk, and financial investments. I think it is exploitive and abusive, though, for an employer to take out his return at the expense of paying his help a civilized wage!
If I ever pursue starting another business, it will not be leasing a truck to a company, because most of the abuses I object to are industry-wide!
I would only do something where the general public was my customer. It would have to be something that had a suitable margin to allow adequate wages and benefits to be expensed AHEAD OF my adequate return....
I will never go into something that is so competitive that I'd be required to exploit employees in order to make the numbers work. Being realistic, I don't see anything like this coming down the line in todays dog-eat-dog competitive business environment.

[steelcomp]

Immediately after commenting on how liberals immediately turn to insults and foul language for absence of a valid argument, you unleash the meanest, opinionated, partisan piece of shit of a post and then say it's appropriate that I should feel threatened for debating my beliefs.... You really have no objectivity at all!
Seems like that hit a nerve, there, Don. Took that a little personal, didn't you?Funny...if that didn't describe you or apply to you, then why should it bother you? What I said was not opinionated, nor was it mean, unless it applied to you, and you took it that way...your choice. (Then not really mean, just true). It's MY observation, Don, and you bet your ass it's partisan.
P.O.S. post? Only to you. Don't see any red squares under my name. (yet)
This was not directed at you, personally, Don. It was directed at the liberal left and what it's doing to our country, and how threatening it is to those of us who recognise it. If you choose to align yourself with that group of people and their ideals and agenda, then be prepared. If not, you have nothing to worry about.

[AzDon]

Listen Buddy-
I don't align myself with any group or fringe ideology.... You seem to have these pre-labeled boxes that you insist that I fit into without reading or considering that anything I say is different than your pre-concieved idea of what you think I believe. I couldn't be a parrot of the liberal media if I wanted to since I don't pay any attention to them. I'm neither Communist nor Socialist in either an "Iron Curtain" or pure literal sense because these ideologies have no chance of EVER working in the real world. I do however support some of the socialist schemes of our history that make this country a great place to live: 1)Paved roads.... that's right, they had to be financed by us collectively because no individual could buy, pave, and share this improvement with the rest of us.... and if the roads were privately owned and you couldn't go anywhere, would it really be OUR country? 2) The dams that provide hydro power, store water for most of the west and give us a place to use our boats are (mostly) public works projects of the great depression era that that awful socialist FDR created to put the citizens that the free-market abandoned, back to work....though once these folks had some WPA spending money, industry started to return. 3) Public Schools: The best paid, most highly qualified teachers are employed by your local public school district. You can deny this fact and spend (waste) lotsa money sending your kids to a private school where the also-ran teachers work, but (at least in Arizona) the scholarships are mostly reserved for graduates of PUBLIC high schools. 4) Police and fire protection: ever have the urge to call the police for help or the fire dept or paramedics to jumpstart a frozen relative? Well guess what.... You are partaking of a socialist scheme! And if you buy insurance, (and who doesn't?) you are participating in the ULTIMATE socialist scheme! In fact, Society is a socialist scheme sharing the same root word. So unless you are anti-social, you are (like it or not!) a SOCIALIST!

[steelcomp]

I don't align myself with any group or fringe ideology....
Sure you do, but like most libs, you don't have the balls to admit it.
I haven't got the energy to spend on this any longer. Nothing you write makes any sense...you just continue to twist things and spin things, and I have nothing further to discuss with you. Respond as you will, insult as you will, I've made my point, and you just continue to illustrate it.
Good luck!

[AzDon]

I don't align myself with any group or fringe ideology....
Sure you do, but like most libs, you don't have the balls to admit it.
I haven't got the energy to spend on this any longer. Nothing you write makes any sense...you just continue to twist things and spin things, and I have nothing further to discuss with you. Respond as you will, insult as you will, I've made my point, and you just continue to illustrate it.
Good luck!
As usual you ignore what I post because you can't rebut it's logic. You haven't truly responded to a single one of my posts except to brand and label me to your liking. Come back out and play when you actually want to interact honestly and intelligently. Until then, I accept that it's your naptime and you're cranky.....sweet dreams!

[OGShocker]

As usual you ignore what I post because you can't rebut it's logic. You haven't truly responded to a single one of my posts except to brand and label me to your liking. Come back out and play when you actually want to interact honestly and intelligently. Until then, I accept that it's your naptime and you're cranky.....sweet dreams!
Shut the FOCK up and go to bed. I'll be up at LHC this weekend, you can buy me a beer :chi:

[AzDon]

Shut the FOCK up and go to bed. I'll be up at LHC this weekend, you can buy me a beer :chi:
I'd love to! Gimme a call, I'm in the phonebook!

[OGShocker]

They allow pinko POS in the phonebook? :rollside:

[AzDon]

C-mon! That's not nice or even accurate! If you're going to invite yourself to drink my beer and "P" in my pool, you gotta be nice!

[Rexone]

So hypothetically, assuming I don't presently pay a living wage.... and now am forced to by President 3 hearts Kerry...
Would you prefer to buy an inflated prop shaft coupler for $250 that's presently worth $150
OR
Not have a US made prop shaft coupler available to buy because I had to fire everyone and send them home to go on welfare because no one would buy my now $250 prop shaft couplers. btw I just downsized or went out of business too, so now I'm now working for low wages or on welfare.
Or maybe now I'll just buy some couplers from mexico or china for $50 because I have to to survive.
Sounds like a great plan. Take from the workers and give to the deadbeats.
At least everyone will now be living in poverty together, not just the deadbeats or those who made poor choices.... whether they wanted to work or not.
All you have to do is look around the world to see countless examples of failed and surpressed societies based on governments screwing with and dictating restrictions and rules on free markets. A living wage (whatever that is, not even sure its definable) is a great first step towards achieving just that.

[Tom Brown]

Why so melodramatic, Mike? If the marine business doesn't work out for you, you can always move to Mexico and sell flowers in the street. :)

[Rexone]

Why so melodramatic, Mike? If the marine business doesn't work out for you, you can always move to Mexico and sell flowers in the street. :)
Perhaps I could get your bran muffin recipe one of these days and build a billet bakery cart and hit the streets of Regina. I hear Canatards have a soft spot for a good home baked muffin.

[Misogynist]

The people that benefit most from low wages and "outsourcing" are the owners of the companies.... but.... I feel that is where government has a role to play.... have any of you people looked at the labels of where most of our products come from these days?... I see China everywhere I look... Bangladesh... Singapore... Malaysia.... Taiwan.... Less USA every day..... The facts are most of our decent paying manufacturing jobs are now in other countries.... Bill Clinton gave China "most favored nation" trading status during his administration... now we are feeling the effects... What kind of entry level jobs are left for our children and the LEGAL immigrants?.... Gee.... flipping burgers or rolling burritos at the local fast food joint?... Cleaning offices of the companies that import goods?...I've had employees that I paid a "living wage" to.... and they weren't worth .50 cents an hour... If the job isn't done correctly the first time..... or they ruin the "stock"... why should they have to be paid at all?... The worst thing I see happening in this country is a loss of a work ethic... When I first started working, no one had to drill into my brain that the work or products going out the door had to be done correctly or people would not buy the product... But today's workers seem to feel that all they have to do is "go through the motions" and if it's done right... good.. if not.. that's good too... as long as some government agency is there to make you pay him anyway. Some people are worth the powder to blow them to hell... they are the ones that are going to be a burden on society... Everyone in the world seems to think that America is sooooo rich that the government can just dole out the money and it will never end..... We as a nation give away millions of dollars every year to foreign nations... money that we don't have.... What is wrong with our politicians? They act like idiots and morons... they try to curry favor with foreign nations .. allowing our jobs to go to them.... they refuse to place any trade duties or tariffs on foreign products ... all the while these foreign products flood our marketplaces. People forget that this country once did NOT have income tax.... did NOT have a huge debt.... was NOT dependant upon foreign nations for energy... But now all the politicians are under the control of special interests... we CANNOT touch the oil in the Alaska wilderness because it might disturb some caribou..... oh god... cry me a river... we should support some royal family in Saudi Arabia because of some environmentalists?.... Are the inmates in charge of the insane asylum?.... We as a nation have become the scape goat for every problem in the world... Ask any arab... trouble in the world?... it's the fault of the US... too many jews in Isreal?... it's the fault of the US... Famine in Africa?..... it's our fault too. WE allow foreigners to run across the border and then WAVE THEIR FLAG ON OUR SOIL AND DEMAND "THEIR RIGHTS".... they have the right to go back to where they came from. But our spineless politicians are so afraid of offending someone and possibly losing votes that they cave in and give away services to people that DO NOT BELONG HERE. My ancestors came from Sweden... what do you think would happen if I went to Sweden and waved an American flag and "demanded my rights"... they would give me the right to wear some pretty good size lumps on my head... I get so pissed off listening to ANY POLITICIANS... because all they say is bullsh!t to get votes.... None of them have the balls or enough spine to do what this country really needs to get back on track... they are all cowards.

[Rexone]

btw as long as I'm on a rare political roll here...
While the democrats are busy worrying about OT pay, giveaways, how many purple hearts Kerry actually earned, welfare and free everything for society...
a guy by the name of Osama Bin Ladin and co. is preparing to put the hurt on America and the free world as we know it. Nuclear weaponry in these guys hands will make Hitler and WW2 look like an outboard exibition at top fuel hydro event.
Someone needs to tell both sides to start paying attention to the serious issues facing America today and stop the partisian bickering, accusations and other dumb shit presently occupying the media in this coming election. Focus on the big problem first. OT, welfare, free health care, and purple hearts are not the big problem. Time to wake up you dumb shit politicians.
Seal the borders off and ditch the pc crap. Protect america first. The enemy just loves our present open border policy with no profiling allowed.... wouldn't want to ruffle any human rights feathers or lose any votes by offending anyone. I got news for ya folks, human rights infringments from profiling will become non issues if our governement doesn't wake up and quickly. Bush's open border policy while being PC correct could easily lead to more major terriorism if not nuclear terriorism. Bush is weak on that and Kerry would be worse. Make no mistake, the enemy places no value on life. There is no deterent to that type of enemy other than destruction. I truly wish Ronald Reagan was in office today. Hopefully whoever is can rise to the coming challenges.
Rexone's Political post allotment for August is now completed. :clover:

[Tom Brown]

I hear Canatards have a soft spot for a good home baked muffin.
A very soft spot.

[Blown 472]

The people that benefit most from low wages and "outsourcing" are the owners of the companies.... but.... I feel that is where government has a role to play.... have any of you people looked at the labels of where most of our products come from these days?... I see China everywhere I look... Bangladesh... Singapore... Malaysia.... Taiwan.... Less USA every day..... The facts are most of our decent paying manufacturing jobs are now in other countries.... Bill Clinton gave China "most favored nation" trading status during his administration... now we are feeling the effects... What kind of entry level jobs are left for our children and the LEGAL immigrants?.... Gee.... flipping burgers or rolling burritos at the local fast food joint?... Cleaning offices of the companies that import goods?...I've had employees that I paid a "living wage" to.... and they weren't worth .50 cents an hour... If the job isn't done correctly the first time..... or they ruin the "stock"... why should they have to be paid at all?... The worst thing I see happening in this country is a loss of a work ethic... When I first started working, no one had to drill into my brain that the work or products going out the door had to be done correctly or people would not buy the product... But today's workers seem to feel that all they have to do is "go through the motions" and if it's done right... good.. if not.. that's good too... as long as some government agency is there to make you pay him anyway. Some people are worth the powder to blow them to hell... they are the ones that are going to be a burden on society... Everyone in the world seems to think that America is sooooo rich that the government can just dole out the money and it will never end..... We as a nation give away millions of dollars every year to foreign nations... money that we don't have.... What is wrong with our politicians? They act like idiots and morons... they try to curry favor with foreign nations .. allowing our jobs to go to them.... they refuse to place any trade duties or tariffs on foreign products ... all the while these foreign products flood our marketplaces. People forget that this country once did NOT have income tax.... did NOT have a huge debt.... was NOT dependant upon foreign nations for energy... But now all the politicians are under the control of special interests... we CANNOT touch the oil in the Alaska wilderness because it might disturb some caribou..... oh god... cry me a river... we should support some royal family in Saudi Arabia because of some environmentalists?.... Are the inmates in charge of the insane asylum?.... We as a nation have become the scape goat for every problem in the world... Ask any arab... trouble in the world?... it's the fault of the US... too many jews in Isreal?... it's the fault of the US... Famine in Africa?..... it's our fault too. WE allow foreigners to run across the border and then WAVE THEIR FLAG ON OUR SOIL AND DEMAND "THEIR RIGHTS".... they have the right to go back to where they came from. But our spineless politicians are so afraid of offending someone and possibly losing votes that they cave in and give away services to people that DO NOT BELONG HERE. My ancestors came from Sweden... what do you think would happen if I went to Sweden and waved an American flag and "demanded my rights"... they would give me the right to wear some pretty good size lumps on my head... I get so pissed off listening to ANY POLITICIANS... because all they say is bullsh!t to get votes.... None of them have the balls or enough spine to do what this country really needs to get back on track... they are all cowards.
And there you have it folks, the voice of reason has spoken. Very well said, via la revolution.
IMO hyper mass consumerism fuels this fire, buy buy buy must do what the tv tells me if I dont have what my neighbor has then I am not cool. :(

[Misogynist]

And there you have it folks, the voice of reason has spoken. Very well said, via la revolution.
IMO hyper mass consumerism fuels this fire, buy buy buy must do what the tv tells me if I dont have what my neighbor has then I am not cool. :(
That is another problem too... I think this idea of mass consumerism fuels a lot of problems... I truly believe that some people are brainwashed by what they see flickering from a box in their living room... Women emulate fictional characters with bad behavior such as the women in "Sex and the city".... Look at the message that the Las Vegas tourist board promotes.. " What happens in Vegas ... Stays in Vegas".... Why don't they just say.... "Go to Vegas and cheat on your spouse because you won't get caught".... duh.... :hammerhea

[eliminatedsprinter]

My ancestors came from Sweden... what do you think would happen if I went to Sweden and waved an American flag and "demanded my rights"... they would give me the right to wear some pretty good size lumps on my head...
Now, now, the sweeds are pretty laid back, they'd just chuckle a bit and go back to their naps. :wink:

[Misogynist]

Now, now, the sweeds are pretty laid back, they'd just chuckle a bit and go back to their naps. :wink:
Jah... shur-a... yumpin' yimminy.... look-a at thu crazy yank.... :supp: ... probably so.... :D

[AzDon]

So hypothetically, assuming I don't presently pay a living wage.... and now am forced to by President 3 hearts Kerry...
Would you prefer to buy an inflated prop shaft coupler for $250 that's presently worth $150
OR
Not have a US made prop shaft coupler available to buy because I had to fire everyone and send them home to go on welfare because no one would buy my now $250 prop shaft couplers. btw I just downsized or went out of business too, so now I'm now working for low wages or on welfare.
Or maybe now I'll just buy some couplers from mexico or china for $50 because I have to to survive.
Sounds like a great plan. Take from the workers and give to the deadbeats.
At least everyone will now be living in poverty together, not just the deadbeats or those who made poor choices.... whether they wanted to work or not.
All you have to do is look around the world to see countless examples of failed and surpressed societies based on governments screwing with and dictating restrictions and rules on free markets. A living wage (whatever that is, not even sure its definable) is a great first step towards achieving just that.
Your illustration takes the pessimistic view that there would be no upside to having most blue collar wages pushed upward by a living wage for bottom-rung people. You look at it as an increased cost for your business rather than an opportunity to reach out to a whole new batch of entry-level customers and I don't think you'll find them overseas just because they've gotten our jobs. Our jobs don't pay much overseas and, culturally, I think our style of boating isn't going to catch on anytime soon!
I will say though, that a living wage law would have to be accompanied by protection of our consumer market from cheap foriegn products. None of our trading partners takes such a pacifistic approach to the invasion of their consumer markets at the expense of their citizen's jobs. Japan actually targets certain products for startup, governmental support and fierce protection with the full intent of invading our market, knowing that we won't try to stop them. They have built a vibrant economy by invading our market while protecting theirs. If we are to maintain our lifestyle, we are going to have to stop the invasion of the cheap foriegn products that stole our jobs. They have every right to make the stuff wherever they want, but I don't believe it's their right to expect to sell HERE!
Anyway, back to the original subject...
Mike- Even if you built 80K boats, I don't see how more people with a livable amount of money would be a bad thing. Entry-level boaters might start buying up all the old, neglected boats languishing in backyards and start restoring them. You know where they might get parts for these projects? Wouldn't you rather sell at retail prices anyway?
You will only fire and send somebody home at the point that you don't need them enough to pay their wages (it's called a layoff) Thanks to our "socialist" system, those employees can apply for the "unemployment" part of their wages that the government collected from you as a condition of their employment. Since I'm sure you employ capable people, they should have no problem finding another employer that is willing to pay for their services. If not, you don't hafta feel guilty about ruining their lives because unemployment insurance assures that they won't starve.
I'm not clear about who you were calling deadbeats, but it looks like you were implying that a person immediately becomes a deadbeat when they become unemployed. Or were you calling underpaid foreign workers deadbeats? Or maybe you were calling underpaid domestic workers deadbeats? (If they work for you and they aren't worth the wage, get rid of them!)
As for your attack on "free market restrictions" I rebut your argument by pointing to Japan as an example of a country that had gone from a defeated military machine to an economic superpower in about 50 years by fiercely regulating everything about their market and protecting it from foriegn invasion. They made it a mission to relentlessly export while refusing imports and it has worked VERY well for them!

[OGShocker]

AZDon, funny you bring up Japan. The Japanese economy has been pounded since 1988. I pulled four sectors and ran a historical on the TOPIX. Follow the link to see (http://quote.tse.or.jp/tse/quote.cgi?F=histidx/EHistIndex&basequote=151_1983&diff1=341_1983&diff2=343_1983&diff3=348_1983&begin=1975/08/24&end=2004/08/25&mode=M&histtype=CSV) the results.

[AzDon]

Japan would hafta fall a long way to be back to 1945.....I don't see that happening as long as Americans buy lots of Toyotas!