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Essex502
08-23-2004, 06:07 AM
Officer Recalls Boat Mission With Kerry
By William B. Rood Chicago Tribune
There were three Swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago — three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on Feb. 28, 1969.
One is John Kerry (news - web sites), the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.
For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of Swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.
Many of us wanted to put it all behind us — the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service — even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.
Even though Kerry's own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.
I can't pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.
I was part of the operation that led to Kerry's Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.
But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three Swift boats — including Kerry's PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz's PCF-43 — that carried Vietnamese Regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.
The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.
Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.
The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.
We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.
The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.
The first time we took fire — the usual rockets and automatic weapons — Kerry ordered a "turn 90" and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army advisor, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half-dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.
Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz's boat at the first site.
It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.
We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch — a thatched hut — maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.
With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.
John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager in a loincloth." I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.
The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.
Our initial reports of the day's action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.
Known over radio circuits by the call sign "Latch," then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three Swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers."
Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry's and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry's inclination to be impulsive to a fault.
Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.
It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.
Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.
Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other Swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.
The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann's congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique's were encouraged.
What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.
Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.
My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were "caught completely off guard."
There's at least one mistake in that citation. The name of the river where the main action occurred is wrong, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste, authored for their signers by staffers. It's a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There's no final authority on something that happened so long ago — not the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.
But I know that what some people are saying now is wrong. While they mean to hurt Kerry, what they're saying impugns others who are not in the public eye.
Men like Larry Lee, who was on our bow with an M-60 machine gun as we charged the riverbank; Kenneth Martin, who was in the .50-caliber gun tub atop our boat; and Benjamin Cueva, our engineman, who was at our aft gun mount suppressing the fire from the opposite bank.
Wayne Langhoffer and the other crewmen on Droz's boat went through even worse on April 12, 1969, when they saw Droz killed in a brutal ambush that left PCF-43 an abandoned pile of wreckage on the banks of the Duong Keo River. That was just a few months after the birth of his only child, Tracy.
The survivors of all these events are scattered across the country now.
Jerry Leeds lives in a tiny Kansas town where he built and sold a successful printing business. He owns a beautiful home with a lawn that sweeps to the edge of a small lake, which he also owns. Every year, flights of purple martins return to the stately birdhouses on the tall poles in his backyard.
Cueva, recently retired, has raised three daughters and is beloved by his neighbors for all the years he spent keeping their cars running. Lee is a senior computer programmer in Kentucky, and Lamberson finished a second military career in the Army.
With the debate over that long-ago day in February, they're all living that war another time.
Reprinted without permission of the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune

HighRoller
08-23-2004, 07:06 AM
So because Kerry called in a favor from a "buddy", the word of 200 other Vets is untrue? I'm sure Kerry rewarded this guy handsomely. But it's too late. The blood is in the water. Kerry still refuses to release his FULL record and is suing people in an attempt to shut them up.What does he have to hide?

Essex502
08-23-2004, 07:31 AM
So because Kerry called in a favor from a "buddy", the word of 200 other Vets is untrue? I'm sure Kerry rewarded this guy handsomely. But it's too late. The blood is in the water. Kerry still refuses to release his FULL record and is suing people in an attempt to shut them up.What does he have to hide?
And the two hundred OTHER vets were all at the scene of the fight? I don't think so as all recollections say the engagement was a lot smaller than that. Has GW released his full military record? (I truly don't know if he has or not.) If his lawsuits have no merit, that will come out quickly.

Jeanyus
08-23-2004, 07:45 AM
If what this Guy (I didn't catch his name) says is true , that would exonrate Kerry on thar particular incident. I would like to move on and not continue to beat a dead horse.
Here's what I can't get over, How can Kerry run for president, based on the fact that he is a patriotic war hero. When he called all patriotic war heros, that served in Vietnam, WAR CRIMINALS !
On this wall there are over 60,000 names of true war heros, who gave all.
Thier voices have been silenced, I know that I am not worthy to speak for them, Please allow me the honor.
" JOHN KERRY WE ARE NOT WAR CRIMINALS ! "
http://members.aol.com/bear317i/wall4.gif
" JOHN KERRY WE ARE NOT WAR CRIMINALS ! " X 60,000

Essex502
08-23-2004, 07:53 AM
If what this Guy (I didn't catch his name) says is true , that would exonrate Kerry on thar particular incident. I would like to move on and not continue to beat a dead horse.
Here's what I can't get over, How can Kerry run for president, based on the fact that he is a patriotic war hero. When he called all patriotic war heros, that served in Vietnam, WAR CRIMINALS !
On this wall there are over 60,000 names of true war heros, who gave all.
Thier voices have been silenced, I know that I am not worthy to speak for them, Please allow me the honor.
" JOHN KERRY WE ARE NOT WAR CRIMINALS ! "
" JOHN KERRY WE ARE NOT WAR CRIMINALS ! " X 60,000
I guess what I haven't seen is the text of his speechs or testimony to Congree where he called ALL veterans War Criminals. Can you point me to those texts? I'd like to read more on this.

Jeanyus
08-23-2004, 07:59 AM
I have not seen in in text. I have herd it on audio tape. It was just on, on the Armstrong and Getty show. There is no denying that it is Kerrys voice.

HighRoller
08-23-2004, 08:00 AM
He explained the "horrific" war crimes, and then insinuated that these acts were accepted and standard practice in the military. He impuned the military "culture" as the cause for these crimes before admitting, shamefully, that he too was a part of these dastardly deeds. But because he was a "confused 27 year-old kid" obviously he didn't consider himself a baby killer like his buddy Hanoi Jane accused all the others of being.

HighRoller
08-23-2004, 08:04 AM
By the way, Essex, just for your information; the gentleman who wrote that "article" is actually an employee of the Chicago Tribune. In fact, if I'm not mistaken he's the editor or assistant editor. Must be nice to have friends in low places with a public soapbox.

MagicMtnDan
08-23-2004, 08:05 AM
Here's your hero and the guy you want to vote for because you can't stand Bush (helluva way to vote for President)...
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2004/02/17/kerry512.jpg
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/higgins.jpg

MagicMtnDan
08-23-2004, 08:06 AM
http://www.la4israel.org/images2004/KerryHanoiJaneFonda.jpg

Jeanyus
08-23-2004, 08:09 AM
That looks like Kerry to me. Go ask a Vietnam vet what he thinks of Jane Fonda. The libs will probably claim thats a body double ,planted by George Bush.

Essex502
08-23-2004, 08:25 AM
By the way, Essex, just for your information; the gentleman who wrote that "article" is actually an employee of the Chicago Tribune. In fact, if I'm not mistaken he's the editor or assistant editor. Must be nice to have friends in low places with a public soapbox.
Sorry to disappoint you highroller, I caught the employment angle yesterday when first reading it. It's just posted as a counterpoint to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (or Lies - whichever they really are)

Essex502
08-23-2004, 08:27 AM
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations
April 23, 1971
I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriots and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.
We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out....
In our opinion and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.
We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.
We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Viet Cong, North Vietnamese or American.
We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and search and destroy missions, as well as by Viet Cong terrorism - and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.
We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.
We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.
We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings." We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.
Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese.
Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."
We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?....We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country - the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions such as the use of weapons; the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search and destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of everything.
An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly. He told me how as a boy on an Indian reservation he had watched television and he used to cheer the cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, "my God, I am doing to these people the very same thing that was done to my people," and he stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing has to end.
We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We're here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The marines say they never even leave their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....
We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission - to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.
I found this just in the last few minutes....

Seadog
08-23-2004, 08:28 AM
Kerry is the a**hole that made his actions in Vietnam a big issue. They have attacked Bush's record of being in the guard, making it sound like he went to Canada. It was the same as with Al Gore, making him out as a vet, and Bush a coward. They ignored the fact that Clinton left the country and dodged the draft. Nobody would try to make an issue if Kerry had not teamed up with Hanoi Jane and lied about the vets. His record does not hold up well under scrutiny. I can understand how his crew would support him and how any soldier that gets rescued would feel gratitude. I have seen many friends that can be objective about what they saw happening to others, but have an exaggerated memory of what happen directly to them. It is not uncommon. The few seconds of combat action seems to take hours. You have a tendency to zone. Your focus gets heightened and narrowed. Every person reacts differently. You have a tendency to bond with those who were with you in those times.

eliminatedsprinter
08-23-2004, 08:28 AM
Jane Fonda is putting on a big rally called "Vagina's for Kerry". Oh yea, it's a classy party. :wink: I wonder if the major news networks will cover it??
The Swift boat vets have a new add that is great and focuses on his post vietnam activities. They should have spent all their time and money airing this add, which is objectively accurate, rather than wasting their time and money on their first unprovable add.

Havasu Cig
08-23-2004, 09:02 AM
They had a former 3 star on the radio the other day who was the highest ranking POW in Vietnam. I don't recall his name, but he said that North Vietnemese would use john Kerry's, as well as others, statements as propaganda to lower their morale while they were in captivity.
What this guy did to betray his fellow service men when he returned was disgraceful imo.

Havasu Cig
08-23-2004, 09:04 AM
BTW: Speaking of releasing records, the Swift boat vets want his medical records from Vietnam realeased. That would easily proove or disproove who is telling the truth about the seriousness of his injuries. Kerry said he will not release them. His refusal makes me question his honesty.

eliminatedsprinter
08-23-2004, 09:10 AM
BTW: Speaking of releasing records, the Swift boat vets want his medical records from Vietnam realeased. That would easily proove or disproove who is telling the truth about the seriousness of his injuries. Kerry said he will not release them. His refusal makes me question his honesty.
Comparing his currently claimed positions to is 20 year congressional voting record makes me more than question his honesty....

Havasu_Dreamin
08-23-2004, 09:14 AM
Here's your hero and the guy you want to vote for because you can't stand Bush (helluva way to vote for President)...[/IMG]
Hey, MMD, show me in any of E502's posts where he says he is voting for Kerry? And where does he call Kerry his hero?

Rocket2003
08-23-2004, 09:19 AM
I don't know if Kerry is full of shi! or not!
But, I do know one thing, If Kerry get's in office, we will all be selling our boats to pay for all his "Special intrest" crap! :yuk:
And you may or may not like Bush, Or the way that he has handled the war! (Just Remember, it was a 100% Vote including Kerry for us to get in this mess)!
But, IMHO at least he has been doing something about the terrorists!! And you think 9-1-1 was bad? Wait until the Terroists find out we have a WIMP in office! :frown:

Havasu Cig
08-23-2004, 09:32 AM
Comparing his currently claimed positions to is 20 year congressional voting record makes me more than question his honesty....
True, but nobody wants to talk about that. I had a debate the other night with a liberal attorney that works with my other 1/2. She is a flaming liberal and hates Bush. She could not back up any of her arguments and finally said that she would not support Bush because of his stance on stem cell research. I questioned why she would vote for a person on just one issue, and asked her if she had looked at Kerry's voting record in the Senate. Her answer to the first question was it was a very important issue to her and the second answer was a No.
She like many others are voting egainst Bush not for Kerry. I was amazed that this person, who is a fairly intellegent laywer sounded like a twelve year old when trying to debate the issues. :rolleyes:

HighRoller
08-23-2004, 10:20 AM
I was pleased to see the SwiftVets book "Unfit for Command is at #3 on the NY Times bestseller list and coming fast! Bill Clinton's "Mein Kampf....errr.. My Lies...ummm My Life" was at #2 but it's out of steam. I suggest everyone go to amazon.com and buy a copy. I think I'll buy three copies and give out some to SL and AZDon.

Essex502
08-23-2004, 10:27 AM
Here seems to be a fairly balanced article on the inconsistencies of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry's account of what happened in combat:
Washington Post Article in Inconsistencies in Stories (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5782981/)

Essex502
08-23-2004, 10:30 AM
Also...Bush is calling for an end to the smear articles by both sides:
Bush Calls for Halt to Swift Boat Ads (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5797164/)
Of course...they've already said they wouldn't halt them even if asked so it's really a sound bite on Bush's part. :D

Essex502
08-23-2004, 10:31 AM
Here's your hero and the guy you want to vote for because you can't stand Bush (helluva way to vote for President)...
Don't misinterpret my commentary with a desire to actually VOTE for Kerry. Bush, to me is still the lesser of the two evils. Makes me almost want to write in John McCain's name on the ballot.

Essex502
08-23-2004, 10:35 AM
I don't know if Kerry is full of shi! or not!
But, I do know one thing, If Kerry get's in office, we will all be selling our boats to pay for all his "Special intrest" crap! :yuk:
And you may or may not like Bush, Or the way that he has handled the war! (Just Remember, it was a 100% Vote including Kerry for us to get in this mess)!
But, IMHO at least he has been doing something about the terrorists!! And you think 9-1-1 was bad? Wait until the Terroists find out we have a WIMP in office! :frown:
Ya' know that you're already paying for the current administration's special interest crap (as you call it) through higher energy prices, larger national debt and bloated contracts (let in secret no bid process) for Haliburton. But I guess that doesn't mean much, huh?

AleAlchemist
08-23-2004, 10:44 AM
The problem with war stories is the guys doin the fighting only get a target, they never here the stratigic discusions.
but you have to admit that 200 is alot...
Why would they lie about their experiences.
All things being equal. I beleive the 200 men

Essex502
08-23-2004, 11:18 AM
The problem with war stories is the guys doin the fighting only get a target, they never here the stratigic discusions.
but you have to admit that 200 is alot...
Why would they lie about their experiences.
All things being equal. I beleive the 200 men
I guess it begs the question...WHAT 200 men? There weren't that many present at the time of the incident. There were 3 boats which carried a compliment of 3 officers and 15 men each. 3 x (15 + 3) = 54. Where are the other 146?

OGShocker
08-23-2004, 11:25 AM
I guess it begs the question...WHAT 200 men? There weren't that many present at the time of the incident. There were 3 boats which carried a compliment of 3 officers and 15 men each. 3 x (15 + 3) = 54. Where are the other 146?
Letters to JK (http://www2.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=Letter)

Essex502
08-23-2004, 11:42 AM
Letters to JK (http://www2.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=Letter)
There are 230 some signators to the letter but that doens't imply in any way to those men being in the conflict that is in dispute.

OGShocker
08-23-2004, 12:02 PM
There are 230 some signators to the letter but that doens't imply in any way to those men being in the conflict that is in dispute.
I believe it goes to the whole story.
F**k what John Kerry did. If he shot 12 VC in the back who the fock cares. If GW skipped on his guard duty BFD!
We need to get beyond this. Hammer on the REAL issues, such as.
Are you prepared to turn this nation over to an ANTI WAR/PEACENIC during a time of war? A man who as a Senator voted against the very same weapons systems that are responsable for deposing the Taliban and Suddam's Iraq? Are you ready to give back your hard earned dollars when this same man reverses your tax cut? If so, you get the nation you deserve.
When the next wave of terror strikes this country who will you trust, a peacenic or a proven wartime president to lead this great nation?
Please NO cut and paste replies. :squiggle:

Essex502
08-23-2004, 12:40 PM
Are you prepared to turn this nation over to an ANTI WAR/PEACENIC during a time of war?
>>>>snip<<<<
No, I am not ready to turn over the country to ANTIWAR/PEACENIC at a time of war. It can be debated that we are NOT in a time of war however.
A man who as a Senator voted against the very same weapons systems that are responsable for deposing the Taliban and Suddam's Iraq? Didn't take much technology to take out either of those two. Which weapons systems in particular are you referring to?
>>>>snip<<<<
Are you ready to give back your hard earned dollars when this same man reverses your tax cut? If so, you get the nation you deserve.
There is no evidence that with a Republican Congress that Kerry could hike the our taxes.
>>>>snip<<<<
When the next wave of terror strikes this country who will you trust, a peacenic or a proven wartime president to lead this great nation?
I can't say that in all honesty that GW has proven himself as a wartime President yet...invade Iraq on faulty intel without verification. Pissed off the majority of our traditional allies. (Even though I never liked most of them the reality is that we need allies.) Is pissing off the reservists by keeping them in country MUCH longer than their duty requirements originally called for them to serve. Unsuccessful, to date, in the North Korean trouble. Can't find Osama. Created controvery with the no-bid, secret contracts with Haliburton. Etc.
I see you didn't say anything about GW's ability to manage the economy...highest (numerical) gas prices ever, highest electricity prices ever, Airlines going bankrupt, first president in 50 years to leave office ( or complete his term ) with a net loss of jobs - over 1 million so far. Removed overtime from maybe 6 million workers (this is today's news and subject to dispute on the numbers). Etc....
As I've said before...I don't like either candidate...I'll probably end up voting Bush as he's the least of two evils. The one I know and not the one I don't know.

OGShocker
08-23-2004, 01:37 PM
I'll probably end up voting Bush.
Cool stuff!

eliminatedsprinter
08-23-2004, 01:53 PM
>>>>snip<<<<
As I've said before...I don't like either candidate...I'll probably end up voting Bush as he's the least of two evils. The one I know and not the one I don't know.
The more you know about Kerry, the better Bush looks. 20 years in congress as nothing but a far left hack. That and, of course, chasing rich bimbos and being Ted Kennedy's valet. :wink:

Havasu_Dreamin
08-23-2004, 01:56 PM
Ted Kennedy's
HowTF does that loser keep getting re-elected? WTF? Is all of MA drunk all the time so they can relate to his BS gibberish!?

Jeanyus
08-23-2004, 01:59 PM
Didn't take much technology to take out either of those two. Which weapons systems in particular are you referring to?
Please allow me to educate you on the weapons technology used in Iraq.
The Abrams tank (which Kerry voted against) won the ground war in Iraq. It proved to be far better than the military had hoped for. It saved putting a whole lot of infantry soldiers at risk.
The smart bomb systems with the ability to hit targets during a blinding sand storm, allowing Americans to continue attacking during no visibility conditions.
Kerry voted against that, he voted against stealth fighter and bomber. And the list goes on.
can't say that in all honesty that GW has proven himself as a wartime President yet...invade Iraq on faulty intel without verification. Pissed off the majority of our traditional allies. (Even though I never liked most of them the reality is that we need allies.) Is pissing off the reservists by keeping them in country MUCH longer than their duty requirements originally called for them to serve. Unsuccessful, to date, in the North Korean trouble. Can't find Osama. Created controvery with the no-bid, secret contracts with Haliburton. Etc.
Took out the 3rd biggest army in the world in about 39 days. Sadam had WMDs, and if he destroyed them he would have proved it to the UN, to get the USA off his back. The question is where are those WMDs.
The only true allie we have is England, and they are still our allie. The rest jus say they are while they promote the destruction of the US.
Example: The weapons being used against US troops were made in Russia, France or Germany. A lot of the French people hated Americans during and after WW II, ask my dad he will confirm that. Did you no that during WW II the first army, to attack Americans in North Africa, were French? Seems to me that North Korea, was not acting so cocky after they saw what happened to Sadams army, same goes for Syria.
I see you didn't say anything about GW's ability to manage the economy...highest (numerical) gas prices ever, highest electricity prices ever, Airlines going bankrupt, first president in 50 years to leave office ( or complete his term ) with a net loss of jobs - over 1 million so far. Removed overtime from maybe 6 million workers (this is today's news and subject to dispute on the numbers). Etc....
Gas prices Pay attention to this I have already said this 1 time, here goes
Bush presides over the highest energy prices in history, before him Clinton presided over the highest energy prices in history, the president who comes after him will preside over the highest energy prices in history, it's called inflation, do you get it ?
Our economy started taking a dive under Clinton, after 9-11 it continued to slow, thus costing jobs, add that to jobs being sent overseas, and we have a problem. The economy is actually recovering.
In case you did not notice, those 4 big jet planes that crashed on 9-11, killing 3,000 Americans, and doing untold damage to our economy, pretty much killed an, already struggling , airline industry.
This brings up the point that by far, the most serious threat to the United States is terrorism.
John kerry is not equipped to deal with the problem. I cant figure out which side he is on, he speaks yet he says nothing, I don't see how a person can be, pro military and anti, military at the same time.
Got anymore ideas you need shot down, today?

HCS
08-23-2004, 01:59 PM
HowTF does that loser keep getting re-elected? WTF? Is all of MA drunk all the time so they can relate to his BS gibberish!?
It's because he supports the boating industry.

eliminatedsprinter
08-23-2004, 02:09 PM
HowTF does that loser keep getting re-elected? WTF? Is all of MA drunk all the time so they can relate to his BS gibberish!?
Because he's got jokers like Kerry and Barney Frank around that make even him look good. That and a name that is as popular in that state as Jesus.

Jeanyus
08-23-2004, 02:09 PM
Oops I forgot 1 thing, the reason our soldiers are unhappy is because , they think America does not support them. I know because I have 3 GI penpals, who I write to and send care packages. No matter what your opinion is on the war, please support our troops. Here is a web site you can go to to find soldiers who need encourgement http://www.anysoldier.us/index.cfm
I know I can be a horses ass sometimes but please go to this site and help a soldier. Thanks RZ

Dr. Eagle
08-23-2004, 02:17 PM
Here's your hero and the guy you want to vote for because you can't stand Bush (helluva way to vote for President)...
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2004/02/17/kerry512.jpg
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/higgins.jpg
I am getting tired of hearing about this... but I believe it to be true. :squiggle: Regardless, I think these pictures put a lot in perspective... Hanoi Jane and JFK... :rolleyes:

572Daytona
08-23-2004, 02:34 PM
I believe that is a photochop, see here: http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry2.asp
But Kerry did write an antiwar book about the war:
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=NewSoldier
I wonder if that is before or after he filmed his "hero" reenactment footage. The guy definitely knows how to play both sides of the fence.

Dr. Eagle
08-23-2004, 02:35 PM
I believe that is a photochop, see here: http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry2.asp
But Kerry did write an antiwar book about the war:
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=NewSoldier
I wonder if that is before or after he filmed his "hero" reenactment footage. The guy definitely knows how to play both sides of the fence.
You could be right, but I have seen the film of his testimony and his throwing the medals away... and most of all I understand the meaning of his Senate voting record. He is a disaster waiting to happen. :hammer2:

Essex502
08-23-2004, 02:40 PM
Please allow me to educate you on the weapons technology used in Iraq.
The Abrams tank (which Kerry voted against) won the ground war in Iraq. It proved to be far better than the military had hoped for. It saved putting a whole lot of infantry soldiers at risk.
The smart bomb systems with the ability to hit targets during a blinding sand storm, allowing Americans to continue attacking during no visibility conditions.
Kerry voted against that, he voted against stealth fighter and bomber. And the list goes on.
Bush’s campaign chairman Marc Racicot on Feb. 22 accused Kerry of “voting against the weapons systems that are winning the War on Terror” and says Kerry was for "canceling or cutting funding for the B-2 Stealth Bomber, the B-1B, the F-15, the F-16, the M1 Abrams, the Patriot Missile, the AH-64 Apache Helicopter, the Tomahawk Cruise Missile, and the Aegis Air-Defense Cruiser." Another Bush campaign spokesman said Kerry has a "32-year history of voting to cut defense programs and cut defense systems" (a clear impossibility since Kerry has been in office less than 20 years.)
It's true Kerry expressed opposition to those weapons 20 years ago as a candidate, voted against Pentagon budgets several times as a senator in the early and mid-1990's, and proposed cuts in military and intelligence budgets as deficit-reduction measures as recently as 1996.
But Kerry's votes against specific military hardware were mostly against strategic nuclear weapons including the B-2 bomber, Trident missile and anti-missile items, not against conventional equipment such as tanks. And Kerry has a point when he says “I've voted for some of the largest defense and intelligence budgets in our history,” which is correct. He's voted for military spending bills regularly since 1997.
And Republicans go too far when they claim that Kerry voted against such mainstay weapons of today's military as the M-1 Abrams tank, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, and the Patriot missile. (See this Republican National Committee "fact sheet," for example.) These claims are misleading because they rest on Kerry's votes against the entire Pentagon appropriations bills in 1990 and 1995. Kerry also voted against the Pentagon authorization bills (which provide authority to spend but not the actual money) in those years and also in 1996. But none of those were votes against specific weapons systems. Kerry's critics might just as well say he was voting to fire the entire Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps.
Took out the 3rd biggest army in the world in about 39 days. Sadam had WMDs, and if he destroyed them he would have proved it to the UN, to get the USA off his back.
The Iraqi army showed the same wherewithal as they showed in the early 90's drop their weapons and run. All our soldiers saw were a$$holes and elbows. Any big surprise?
The question is where are those WMDs.
Yep. That's the $64 question. Nowhere to be found. Amazing isn't it. Were they ever there?
The only true allie we have is England, and they are still our allie.
We'd be eating skones and drinking tea had not France (again I don't like them personally) aided us in the Revolutionary War.
The rest jus say they are while they promote the destruction of the US.
Where did you get this factoid?
Example: The weapons being used against US troops were made in Russia, France or Germany.
You forget Chinese and North Korean as well. And, Saddam used American made weaponry against us from when we supplied him during the Iraq/Iran war. Don't forget history or you're doomed to repeat it.
A lot of the French people hated Americans during and after WW II, ask my dad he will confirm that. Did you know that during WW II the first army, to attack Americans in North Africa, were French?
This one I haven't heard before so I can't dispute it one way or another.
Seems to me that North Korea, was not acting so cocky after they saw what happened to Sadams army, same goes for Syria.
Who are you kidding...the current North Korean B.S. all started AFTER Bush's "Axis of Evil" statements.
Gas prices Pay attention to this I have already said this 1 time, here goes
Bush presides over the highest energy prices in history, before him Clinton presided over the highest energy prices in history, the president who comes after him will preside over the highest energy prices in history, it's called inflation, do you get it ?
Our economy started taking a dive under Clinton, after 9-11 it continued to slow, thus costing jobs, add that to jobs being sent overseas, and we have a problem. The economy is actually recovering.
Show me....the economy still stinks after all the tax cuts and we are rolling up our national debt at a record pace. Our decendents will have to deal with it.
In case you did not notice, those 4 big jet planes that crashed on 9-11, killing 3,000 Americans, and doing untold damage to our economy, pretty much killed an, already struggling , airline industry.
And contrary to the administration's grandiose rhetoric no real economic gains have taken place. What...the loss of 1 million American jobs is a recovery?
This brings up the point that by far, the most serious threat to the United States is terrorism.John kerry is not equipped to deal with the problem. I cant figure out which side he is on, he speaks yet he says nothing, I don't see how a person can be, pro military and anti, military at the same time. Got anymore ideas you need shot down, today?
You've failed to shoot down the ideas - read facts - as well as Bush has done as a President when the blinders are taken off and reality of our world has set in. We are worse off than when GW came to into office. Name one significant area we have improved in American life.

Havasu_Dreamin
08-23-2004, 02:50 PM
Name one significant area we have improved in American life.
I got a raise last year and get one this year! LMAO Just messing with you E502!

572Daytona
08-23-2004, 02:52 PM
You've failed to shoot down the ideas - read facts - as well as Bush has done as a President when the blinders are taken off and reality of our world has set in. We are worse off than when GW came to into office. Name one significant area we have improved in American life.
Hmm...let's see interest rates are down, inflation is low, taxes are down, violent crime is down, drug usage among teens is starting to decline. On a personal front both my wife and I are making more money than in 2000 and our house has also appreciated significantly in value.

OGShocker
08-23-2004, 03:04 PM
Life in America is bad.... reeeal bad! Don't ask me why or how it just is! :rolleyes:

eliminatedsprinter
08-23-2004, 03:42 PM
Yes, we need to listen to Sen Kerry so we can be more like Europe, so we can have unemployment over 10% and per capita incomes of less than half of ours, like the best European nations do.... :rolleyes: :wink:
P.S. The pic with Hanoi Jane is a photo chop, but H. Jane is a big Kerry supporter and they are without a doubt Birds of a feather...

Rocket2003
08-23-2004, 04:02 PM
Well, one good thing would come out of "Kerry's" election,,,,,,,, we wouldn't have to see Mrs. Clinton in 08! :hammer2:
Ya know that's coming for sure, if Bush wins! :confused:

eliminatedsprinter
08-23-2004, 04:12 PM
Well, one good thing would come out of "Kerry's" election,,,,,,,, we wouldn't have to see Mrs. Clinton in 08! :hammer2:
Ya know that's coming for sure, if Bush wins! :confused:
As Kerry's mentor must have at least one time said, "we'll have to cross that bridge when we get to it". ;)

INXS
08-23-2004, 04:32 PM
Why is he sueing everyone except the Swift Boat Vets. What happened to kerrys Christmas in Cambo :hammer2: dia?

Havasu Cig
08-23-2004, 04:55 PM
"The Iraqi army showed the same wherewithal as they showed in the early 90's drop their weapons and run. All our soldiers saw were a$$holes and elbows. Any big surprise?"
Really, were you there???
I guess the three guys in my unit that were killed in 91 by Iraqi mortar fire was an accident. I guess the artillery and small arms fire we took must have been somebody else other than the Iraqi's.
Don't believe everything you hear. Some Iraqi's chose to surrender (usually after being pounded by either air or ground) and others chose to fight. The republican guard had decent Soviet weapons and most fought. Thank God our stuff was better.

Jeanyus
08-23-2004, 05:22 PM
The Iraqi army showed the same wherewithal as they showed in the early 90's drop their weapons and run. All our soldiers saw were a$$holes and elbows. Any big surprise?
You may want to talk to a US Infantry soldier, that was on the front line. I'm sure he will be glad to correct you on your above statement.
We'd be eating skones and drinking tea had not France (again I don't like them personally) aided us in the Revolutionary War.
I guess if you go back far enough, you can find when France whas our allie, could it be that they just hated England? I would think that 400,000 Americans, killed in France during WW II would be enough to make them like us. Maybee they are just real hard to please.
Yep. That's the $64 question. Nowhere to be found. Amazing isn't it. Were they ever there?
Ask Iran and the Kurds.
Show me....the economy still stinks after all the tax cuts and we are rolling up our national debt at a record pace. Our decendents will have to deal with it.
I am a small construction business. I am the first one to feel it when the economy slows down. I had 6 new potential customers call me today. People I have never met before. The business has NEVER been better for me. So I'll have to take your word for it when you say the economy sucks.

MagicMtnDan
08-23-2004, 05:37 PM
invade Iraq on faulty intel without verification. Pissed off the majority of our traditional allies.
Everyone said Iraq had WMDs. Bill Clinton said it, the British said it (and their intel), the Russians told us, even the United Nations told us. Furthermore, we had visual proof! Saddam killed thousands of Kurds using WMDs. What more do you guys want?!
As for our "traditional allies" - who are you concerned with, the French? The Russians? The Germans? You do realize that they had huge financial contracts with Saddam and were raking in tens of millions of dollars from giving him special treatment. Are THOSE the allies you're talking about or are you talking about all the other allies who really are on our side and are over in Iraq standing side-by-side with our soldiers?
I know there are plenty of gray areas in these politically charged issues but there are plenty of facts to go around. All one needs to do is open the mind and the truth is there.

steelcomp
08-23-2004, 06:42 PM
Essex, what's your point in defending Kerry?
I see through the small tallk, and it's just another typical lib making huge claims, not being able or willing to back them up, and when someone can legitimately contest those claims, there's no response in like, just an attempt to eliminate the source. That in itself is the issue...it's typical, and terribly terribly suspicious. None of us were there, and none of us knows. But when over 200 people who were directly involved come out on their own accord, there's a good chance, just by the odds, that there is more truth there than is obviously acceptable to Kerry. Why the huge cover-up? He hasn't responded ONCE to the contradictions, but has made a TREMENDOUS effort to quell it. He's just plain full of it. Every time he opens his mouth, he proves beyond a shadow of a doubt what kind of a person he is. Military record aside, he's full of it. What about his 5 different versions of "Christmas in Cambodia? What about his voting record? What about his attendance record? There isn't a constructive thing that has ever been done for this country, or his state, with his name on it. He's been a slacker as a policy maker. Never there for the meetings, never there to vote on anything. What a joke! The guy has more stories than Dr Suess, and IMO, by what I've heard from him, and I've heard enough of his condescending, "I'm a hero", "I'm your savior", typical liberal "you can do nothing without me", tone, hasn't got a sincere or honest leg to stand on!! He's arrogant, insincere, transparent as glass, selfrighteous, and in more than one instance, a liar. He's two faced, and has only one thing in mind, at whatever cost, at what ever price, that is to be president. And again, I say, if this is the best the libs have to offer, they're really in trouble.
You can't run a campaign on hate. You can't win people's votes on hate. You can't have all this hate, anda then step in and expect to objectively run a country. There has been more hatred for and attacks against GW Bush, than any president in history. The groups that have been attacking Bush collectively have raised (I think, I heard this today on ABC) some 300 mil. for their attack campaign. The groups supporting Bush have raised 9 mil. If the numbers aren't exactly correct, they represent the point. And that was reported by ABC news, who is one of the most liberally biassed news groups there are. If they could have put a Kerry spin on it, they would have.
What does that tell you?
Again...GW Bush is a good, Christian man who has shown stability, honor, integrity, and trust. He's not perfect, by any means. This country was so in need of those things after 8 yrs of Clinton. He was nothing more than a draft dodging, dope smoking, womanizing, self serving liar who disgraced the office of president in an unbelievable way. GWB has at least brought some of that back to the office, and restored some dignity there.
I think there is a turning point that has been reached here. The libs have had their run, and it's over. They've made a shambles out of this country in the last forty years and I think people have had enough. Now they're seeing their end, and as usual, there is nothing they won't say or do...regardless of weather it's right, wrong, truth or lie. I've learned that the truth isn't something most libs are interested in...only promoting their agenda, at any cost. That's undenyable. Say what you want, I've seen it with my own two eyes for too long. That's the BIG picture here...Kerry is just another perfect example. Just the controversey that surrounds him is enough to raise question beyond a reasonable doubt.

steelcomp
08-23-2004, 07:17 PM
"Ya' know that you're already paying for the current administration's special interest crap (as you call it) through higher energy prices, larger national debt and bloated contracts (let in secret no bid process) for Haliburton. But I guess that doesn't mean much, huh?"
Prove it. Show me where. Show me how.
Jees...another freekin parrot.
Hey Essex...you sure you're not employed by ABC? You sure sound like you're spewing the same crap! All gloom and doom! I don't know about you, but I've been hearing reports of the best economic growth figures in the last twenty years!! Record setting! For three months straight they were so far above expectations that it was baffling the experts. The tax cuts work, just as they did with Regan.
Oh, that's right. You libs hated him, too. I suppose he didn't do anything right either. You just can't stand anything good for this country, because it's bad for your lib agenda.
People with your attitude and mind set need to move to another country if this one is so f**ked up! And take your negativism with you. Go on, get the f**k out! I'm dead serious. I will buy you a one way ticket. I'm so sick and tired of the useless crap that keeps spewing out of lib's mouths. You cry, and whine, and blame, and lie and point fingers, and are the FIRST to start shit, but get some in return, you chicken shit out and call your lawyers. You NEVER offer a solution, only criticism. You work on fear and manipulation of the truth to influence people. You discrace our country, you discrace our constitution, put it down, use it, abuse it, then pat eachother on the back, and say "job well done". The liberal socialistic, communistic agenda has this country SO damn f**cked up it's just absurd, and it's gonna stop!
If this is not you, it sounds like it's who you are aligning yourself with. If this is not you, you need to change your music, 'cause the song you're singin' is getting real old!
What have you done to make this world a better place.
Another one of the 90% being carried by the 10%.
There isn't an emoticon for how disgusted I am right now.

BajaMike
08-23-2004, 07:26 PM
One thing about him (Kerry) is not in dispute...he bragged about his war record at the demo convention....but he only spent 4 months in Vietnam.....couldn't wait to get out after a very minor injury (and possibly self inflicted).
Not really a war hero....many guys had minor injuries and fought on for many years....according to many who were there, this guy couldn't wait to get back to the USA.
I don't really blame him (I never went to Vietnam)...and it was a mess over there...but he is the one that has tried to make himself out to be a war hero....and bragged about his medals....
Did you ever hear about Bob Dole or George Bush's medals from WW2?? Both spent years in the war and were shot down and seriously injured....but did not make the medals an issue in there campaigns.
Just my 2 cents.....
:confused:
Mike

Seadog
08-23-2004, 07:50 PM
I can honestly say that I am worse off now than 4 yrs ago. But the skid started when my retirement stocks started tanking under Clinton. The stocks were making a recovery after Bush became Prez, and then 9/11 happened. To blame Bush for that, is stupid. The airlines have been on shaky ground for over a decade. 9/11 pulled the rug out.
Allies are strange things. Sixty years ago our allies were England, Russia and China. Our enemies were Italy, Japan, Germany, and France. True, it was a puppet government in France, but technically, our enemies. We invaded all four of our enemy nations and installed governments more friendly to us. Things change with governments and while most governments debate our policies, the bigger they are, the more respect they have for us overall. They may not like us, but they do respect us and they know that we are not interested in colonialism.

steelcomp
08-23-2004, 08:24 PM
Didn't take much technology to take out either of those two. Which weapons systems in particular are you referring to?
What an ass!! The unmitigated arrogance!! You smug SOB! (now I'm name calling, but if the shoe fits..)
You can actually sit there in your little comfort zone, no risk, no sacrafice, and make references to what went on in a war that probably would have made you piss your pants! It was PURE technology...the kind that probably saved 10,000 lives! One of the goals of our military is to fight a technological war, as to save lives...at least our soldier's lives. I'll give you ONE example...the third and fourth generation night vision capabilities the soldiers and their weapons have. We fight at night...they can't see us. No other country has the capabilities we have there. That's a minor example. That's one of the ways we were so overwhelming in the middle east. Both times. Overwhelm with enough force, and your enemy WILL surrender without a fight. It wasn't EASY, it was extremely hard work.
How do I know?
I was a crewchief on Blackhawks for three yrs.
My father was the Senior Weapons Design Engineer for Delco Weapon Systems (Gen Motors Corp) during the first Gulf war. Think that's a good enough source?
But you keep sayin stuff like you know what you're talking about. Problem is, you're bound to impress someone.
Didn't take much technology. Yeah, right. Shows what you know.

steelcomp
08-23-2004, 08:32 PM
One thing about him (Kerry) is not in dispute...he bragged about his war record at the demo convention....but he only spent 4 months in Vietnam.....couldn't wait to get out after a very minor injury (and possibly self inflicted).
Not really a war hero....many guys had minor injuries and fought on for many years....according to many who were there, this guy couldn't wait to get back to the USA.
I don't really blame him (I never went to Vietnam)...and it was a mess over there...but he is the one that has tried to make himself out to be a war hero....and bragged about his medals....
Did you ever hear about Bob Dole or George Bush's medals from WW2?? Both spent years in the war and were shot down and seriously injured....but did not make the medals an issue in there campaigns.
Just my 2 cents.....
:confused:
Mike
Kerry never intended to stay in VN. He knew that after the third PH you can opt out, and he got his three in record time. He opted out of active duty immediately after his third, and then the Navy. No scars, no limp, no wounds. After he returned to the States, he immediately began massaging his political career.Not long before he ran for office.
I had heard a report that one of Kerry's family members said he's been obsessed with becoming President since he was a child. Don't know if it's true, but it sure fits.

Essex502
08-24-2004, 06:18 AM
Didn't take much technology to take out either of those two. Which weapons systems in particular are you referring to?
What an ass!! The unmitigated arrogance!! You smug SOB! (now I'm name calling, but if the shoe fits..)
You can actually sit there in your little comfort zone, no risk, no sacrafice, and make references to what went on in a war that probably would have made you piss your pants! It was PURE technology...the kind that probably saved 10,000 lives! One of the goals of our military is to fight a technological war, as to save lives...at least our soldier's lives. I'll give you ONE example...the third and fourth generation night vision capabilities the soldiers and their weapons have. We fight at night...they can't see us. No other country has the capabilities we have there. That's a minor example. That's one of the ways we were so overwhelming in the middle east. Both times. Overwhelm with enough force, and your enemy WILL surrender without a fight. It wasn't EASY, it was extremely hard work.
How do I know?
I was a crewchief on Blackhawks for three yrs.
My father was the Senior Weapons Design Engineer for Delco Weapon Systems (Gen Motors Corp) during the first Gulf war. Think that's a good enough source?
But you keep sayin stuff like you know what you're talking about. Problem is, you're bound to impress someone.
Didn't take much technology. Yeah, right. Shows what you know.
Hey dude...first I won't sink to your level in name calling but I happen to work for one of the largest and most advance weapons systems firms in the world which will remain nameless on this board. We are designing systems that would strike real fear into our true enemies should the details be published. Those on these boards that know me personally know this to be true.
Get this straight though your head...I am not a liberal and I started this thread to bring balance debate to an ugly issue of the misinformation being broadcast. You seem to think you have all the answers but just spew the same old arguments yourself. You are not interested in debate but only smearing - just like the Swift Boat Vets.
Rise above the muck and debate the issue.
I will say it agian - this time louder:
I DON'T SUPPORT KERRY
Did you hear it this time? I also dont' blindly support Bush as I think that some of his actions, policies, backroom deals, administration ties to certain industries, etc. need to be OPENLY DEBATED. DID YOU HEAR THAT TOO? DO I NEED TO TURN IT UP HIGHER?

Jeanyus
08-24-2004, 07:12 AM
I DON'T SUPPORT KERRY
You could have fooled me. I don't blindly support Bush, you could say I blindly oppose Kerry, the guy is flat out a liar. Nothing he can say or do will change that.
Is Bush a liar, well he's a politician isn't he. At least I can beleive some of what he says. As far as the issues, the #1 problem facing America is terrorism. Bush has let the country down, by not sealing our borders.
I listened Armstrong and Getty interview an Arizona newspaper reporter.
The reporter wrote an article, about how the border patrol, picked up a group of illeagels crossing the border, only this group was different, they were dressen in new clothing, and did not speak spanish very well, turns out they were from the middle east.
Why does it feel like our government is waiting for another disaster to happen before the act on a serious problem ?

HighRoller
08-24-2004, 07:15 AM
Show me....the economy still stinks after all the tax cuts and we are rolling up our national debt at a record pace. Our decendents will have to deal with it.
Dow jones up 22% in 2003.
NASDAQ up 44% in 2003
GDP growing at fastest rate in 20 years.
UNEMPLOYMENT LOWER THAN ANY TIME DURING CLINTON-GORE YEARS.
Home ownership numbers at an all time high.
Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowe's, Target and several other large retailers have posted double digit quarterly sales increases for nearly 20 months straight.
Wake UP! Have you tried to park at Wal-Mart on a weekend lately? Been to the mall lately? These are the places where middle class people spend their disposable income, and everytime I've gone lately it has been packed! Is that because people's cars ran out of gas and they had to walk home?

Essex502
08-24-2004, 07:48 AM
You could have fooled me. I don't blindly support Bush, you could say I blindly oppose Kerry, the guy is flat out a liar. Nothing he can say or do will change that.
Did I say one thing in support of Kerry? I don't think so. What I did was draw out the debate on some of the administration's failing hopefully to make everyone aware that it is not so rosy a picture. We need to improve many things.
Is Bush a liar, well he's a politician isn't he. At least I can beleive some of what he says.
I agree they all lie to some extent or maybe the correct term is "spin the truth".
As far as the issues, the #1 problem facing America is terrorism. Bush has let the country down, by not sealing our borders.
I listened Armstrong and Getty interview an Arizona newspaper reporter.
The reporter wrote an article, about how the border patrol, picked up a group of illeagels crossing the border, only this group was different, they were dressen in new clothing, and did not speak spanish very well, turns out they were from the middle east.
Why does it feel like our government is waiting for another disaster to happen before the act on a serious problem ?
I don't know whether "sealing our borders" is the answer but certainly improving the porosity of them with enhanced background checks and monitoring of the visitors we have inside our country. If someone comes into the country with a visa there should be some database that spits his/her name out when it's time for them to leave. If they haven't left, then a knock on the door of their last known residence or location is warranted. If not there a mobilization of LE to track them down and "export" them back home.

OGShocker
08-24-2004, 07:59 AM
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX TUE AUG 24, 2004 11:09:31 ET XXXXX
KERRY PHONES SWIFT BOAT FOES
**World Exclusive**
Dem presidential hopeful John Kerry personally phoned anti-Kerry swift boat vets, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.
Kerry reached out to Robert "Friar Tuck" Brant Cdr., USN (RET) Sunday night, just hours after former Sen. Bob Dole publicly challenged Kerry to apologize to veterans.
Brant was skipper of the #96 and # 36 boat and spent time with Kerry in An Thoi. Kerry and Brant slept in the same quarters, and Brant used to put Kerry back to bed at night when Kerry was sleepwalking.
Brant received a call from Kerry at his home in Virginia while he was watching the Olympics on TV.
The call lasted 10 minutes, sources tell DRUDGE.
KERRY: "Why are all these swift boat guys opposed to me?"
BRANT: "You should know what you said when you came back, the impact it had on the young sailors and how it was disrespectful of our guys that were killed over there."
[Brant had two men killed in battle.]
KERRY: "When we dedicated swift boat one in '92, I said to all the swift guys that I wasn't talking about the swifties, I was talking about all the rest of the veterans."
Kerry then asked if he could meet Brant ["You were one of the best"] -- man to man -- face to face.
Brant declined the invite, explaining that Kerry was obviously not prepared to correct the record on exactly what happened during Vietnam and what happened when Kerry came back.
Developing...
Sorry Matt, I had to C&P this one!

eliminatedsprinter
08-24-2004, 08:06 AM
Essex
Don't go so hard on the swiftboat vets. They are telling the truth as they remember it. I agree that they should not have wasted their time and money on their first ad, as it is an unprovable he said vs he said. However, the second ad, that they are currently running, re his phony testimony before congress and his so called "peace activism", is dead on and it accuratly explaines why about 99% of vietnam vets hate his guts....

Havasu_Dreamin
08-24-2004, 08:09 AM
Typical sharks circling. None of you fockers even know E502, yet you resort to name calling. Pathetic!

Havasu_Dreamin
08-24-2004, 08:12 AM
Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowe's, Target and several other large retailers have posted double digit quarterly sales increases for nearly 20 months straight.
According to KFWB Wal-Mart has reported that their August 04 sales are less than expected. Target is said to still be meeting their forecasts. Don't know about the others. And this is not meant to sway people one way or the other, just stating the facts.

Essex502
08-24-2004, 08:14 AM
Dow jones up 22% in 2003.
NASDAQ up 44% in 2003
GDP growing at fastest rate in 20 years.
UNEMPLOYMENT LOWER THAN ANY TIME DURING CLINTON-GORE YEARS.
Home ownership numbers at an all time high.
Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowe's, Target and several other large retailers have posted double digit quarterly sales increases for nearly 20 months straight.
Wake UP! Have you tried to park at Wal-Mart on a weekend lately? Been to the mall lately? These are the places where middle class people spend their disposable income, and everytime I've gone lately it has been packed! Is that because people's cars ran out of gas and they had to walk home?
The cost of owning a home is at an all time high and the percentage of people that can afford a home is at an all time low. You wake up.
What about 2001, 2002 and 2004?
Dow down 4% YTD
NASDAQ down 8% YTD
Walmart posted a warning that Q3 would be lower than analysts expect. On Monday Walmart lowered August's forecasts. Other retailers are predicted flat forecasts...wake up yourself...the oil prices are having an effect on retail spending.
Yes, Lowes, Home Depot and other home related companies are doing well but this is a small sector of the total market. My guess is that home improvement sector will flourish as more peeps can't afford to buy homes and instead repair or improve the ones they have.
And..certainly oil company stocks - wink, wink - are doing quite well. But at what expense? Airlines are in the dumper, shipping companies are struggling do to high fuel costs.
And....GDP:
Bush Years
2003 4.93%
2002 3.54%
2001 3.17%
2000 5.92%
Clinton Years
1999 5.96%
1998 5.33%
1997 6.24%
1996 5.67%
1995 4.60%
1994 6.23%
1993 5.04%
1992 5.70%
Where's your argument now?

OGShocker
08-24-2004, 08:14 AM
Typical sharks circling. None of you fockers even know E502, yet you resort to name calling. Pathetic!
HD, I know him well enough for him to call me an A$$hole. Matter of fact that is the same term of endearment my wife uses for me. :rollside:

HighRoller
08-24-2004, 08:15 AM
I have another important question. Now that we know the editor of the Chicago Trib is a Kerry ass-licker, how can that paper even pretend to present the news in an objective fashion? Isn't a paper's job to report the news and let the reader decided what to make of it? Instead, the editor runs to Kerry's rescue...so much for the First Amendment. I guess if your views are not Pro-Kerry, the editor will slap you down. What a loser. Can you say "bias"?

Essex502
08-24-2004, 08:16 AM
I have another important question. Now that we know the editor of the Chicago Trib is a Kerry ass-licker, how can that paper even pretend to present the news in an objective fashion? Isn't a paper's job to report the news and let the reader decided what to make of it? Instead, the editor runs to Kerry's rescue...so much for the First Amendment. I guess if your views are not Pro-Kerry, the editor will slap you down. What a loser. Can you say "bias"?
You apparantly didn't read the article.

Essex502
08-24-2004, 08:18 AM
Typical sharks circling. None of you fockers even know E502, yet you resort to name calling. Pathetic!
Sharks? More like catfish or carp if you ask me! :D

Essex502
08-24-2004, 08:24 AM
I have another important question. Now that we know the editor of the Chicago Trib is a Kerry ass-licker, how can that paper even pretend to present the news in an objective fashion? Isn't a paper's job to report the news and let the reader decided what to make of it? Instead, the editor runs to Kerry's rescue...so much for the First Amendment. I guess if your views are not Pro-Kerry, the editor will slap you down. What a loser. Can you say "bias"?
Before you accuse an entire enterprise with bias check other aarticles such as today's:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0408240191aug24,1,5853346.story
You'll have to register to get to it.

Freak
08-24-2004, 08:26 AM
I have another important question. Now that we know the editor of the Chicago Trib is a Kerry ass-licker, how can that paper even pretend to present the news in an objective fashion? Isn't a paper's job to report the news and let the reader decided what to make of it? Instead, the editor runs to Kerry's rescue...so much for the First Amendment. I guess if your views are not Pro-Kerry, the editor will slap you down. What a loser. Can you say "bias"?
AHHH Ha. My biggest problem with reporters. They don't present the just the facts. They present their take on the facts. :mad:

Essex502
08-24-2004, 08:27 AM
Or this one:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0408240239aug24,1,7605441.story

572Daytona
08-24-2004, 09:13 AM
Ok, here's one I want someone to explain to me. I keep hearing the sound bytes about how Bush has lost all of these jobs (the most since Julius Ceasar or something like that). I went out to the Bureau of Labor Statistics website http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln and ran my own reports and this is what I got. From what I can see is that there are more people employed now than ever, there was a dip after 9/11 but for the most part it has continued to trend up. How can there be a loss of jobs if more people are employed than before? Also unemployment is lower than ever. I don't under stand :confused:
http://www.carlsonspeed.com/~daytona/labor.gif

totenhosen
08-24-2004, 09:21 AM
Again...GW Bush is a good, Christian man who has shown stability, honor, integrity, and trust. He's not perfect, by any means. This country was so in need of those things after 8 yrs of Clinton. He was nothing more than a draft dodging, dope smoking, womanizing, self serving liar who disgraced the office of president in an unbelievable way.
I think that can describe Bush to a point as well except for the womanizing. Let's face it both candidates stink and Bush maybe the lesser of two evils.

eliminatedsprinter
08-24-2004, 09:32 AM
Essex
Re: those who are getting insulting.
I respect the fact that you are playing a bit of "devils advocate" here. I often like to do that when I debate friends who share otherwise similar views. Afterall, a debate is no fun without 2 sides. However, as you know, many of the folks on these boards are pretty outspoken and if you stick up for an autocrat like Sen Kerry, to a freedom loving bunch like us, some are going to hurl a few choice explitives ;) your way. You have pointed out to me a couple of times when my facts have been a tad outdated etc and not too delicatly at that. ;) But hey, that's okay, we all need a smack ounce in a while when we are wrong...Oh sh!#, I just forgot where I was going with this.......... :notam: Oh well, you are a smart guy, you can probably figure it out before I recover from my brainfart. :D :coffeycup

eliminatedsprinter
08-24-2004, 09:36 AM
Bush maybe the lesser of two evils.
When you look at Kerry's far left political track record, it would be hard for Bush not to be.....

Essex502
08-24-2004, 10:04 AM
Essex
Re: those who are getting insulting.
I respect the fact that you are playing a bit of "devils advocate" here. I often like to do that when I debate friends who share otherwise similar views. Afterall, a debate is no fun without 2 sides. However, as you know, many of the folks on these boards are pretty outspoken and if you stick up for an autocrat like Sen Kerry, to a freedom loving bunch like us, some are going to hurl a few choice explitives ;) your way. You have pointed out to me a couple of times when my facts have been a tad outdated etc and not too delicatly at that. ;) But hey, that's okay, we all need a smack ounce in a while when we are wrong...Oh sh!#, I just forgot where I was going with this.......... :notam: Oh well, you are a smart guy, you can probably figure it out before I recover from my brainfart. :D :coffeycup
I appreciate the thought ES. I am playing a little bit of devil's advocate here as I don't think Kerry IS the right man for the job. I just am not happy for a variety of reasons with GW either. He will win. I'll prolly vote for him. And that will be the end of it.
Name calling...juvenile and I try to refrain from it but if aimed at me...I look to the source and shake my head.

eliminatedsprinter
08-24-2004, 10:07 AM
I appreciate the thought ES. I am playing a little bit of devil's advocate here as I don't think Kerry IS the right man for the job. I just am not happy for a variety of reasons with GW either. He will win. I'll prolly vote for him. And that will be the end of it.
Name calling...juvenile and I try to refrain from it but if aimed at me...I look to the source and shake my head.
There you go, that's what I ment. :cool: :cool:

Essex502
08-24-2004, 10:16 AM
Ok, here's one I want someone to explain to me. I keep hearing the sound bytes about how Bush has lost all of these jobs (the most since Julius Ceasar or something like that). I went out to the Bureau of Labor Statistics website http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln and ran my own reports and this is what I got. From what I can see is that there are more people employed now than ever, there was a dip after 9/11 but for the most part it has continued to trend up. How can there be a loss of jobs if more people are employed than before? Also unemployment is lower than ever. I don't under stand :confused:
Interesting site there, Daytona...
I can't explain it but there's an interesting article in the L.A. Times concerning that exact difference in numbers...it seems that when the government takes a survey of people - i.e. workers - the numbers don't correlate with the survey of companies. The companies are report that they are hiring less than the people who say that they are now working. The Bureau of Labor Statistics is directly quoted in the article.
The 1 million job loss figure has been published widely but never documented as to where the number is derived.
See this article: Los Angeles Times - Disparate Jobs Data Mystery (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-survey23aug23,1,1355560.story)

572Daytona
08-24-2004, 10:34 AM
Interesting site there, Daytona...
I can't explain it but there's an interesting article in the L.A. Times concerning that exact difference in numbers...it seems that when the government takes a survey of people - i.e. workers - the numbers don't correlate with the survey of companies. The companies are report that they are hiring less than the people who say that they are now working. The Bureau of Labor Statistics is directly quoted in the article.
The 1 million job loss figure has been published widely but never documented as to where the number is derived.
See this article: Los Angeles Times - Disparate Jobs Data Mystery (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-survey23aug23,1,1355560.story)
I don't have an account on latimes and I don't like giving out my email address to potential spammers so I didn't read the article, but I didn't realize that the jobs numbers are based on surveys rather than actual data. That to me is scary realizing that whomever is surveyed could influence the data for political reasons. One would think that the BLS should have access to payroll or social security data that would give a more accurate picture of employment. I'm just not buying into the doom and gloom economy picture. Look at the record numbers of new houses being built, I seriously doubt that only the wealth 5% are building all of those, it definitely points to a rosy economic picture for the middle class. My wife is a realtor and lots of people are now able to afford a home that couldn't before. Sure jobs are going overseas, but that isn't a new trend. Manufacturing started offshoring in the 50's or maybe even earlier and the tech sector has been doing it since at least early 90's that I know of. A lot of the gains in the stock market in the 90's were from this outsourcing, I think now a lot of the companies are hitting the point of diminishing returns from outsourcing/offshoring especially the larger ones.

Essex502
08-24-2004, 11:13 AM
I don't have an account on latimes and I don't like giving out my email address to potential spammers so I didn't read the article, but I didn't realize that the jobs numbers are based on surveys rather than actual data. That to me is scary realizing that whomever is surveyed could influence the data for political reasons. One would think that the BLS should have access to payroll or social security data that would give a more accurate picture of employment. I'm just not buying into the doom and gloom economy picture. Look at the record numbers of new houses being built, I seriously doubt that only the wealth 5% are building all of those, it definitely points to a rosy economic picture for the middle class. My wife is a realtor and lots of people are now able to afford a home that couldn't before. Sure jobs are going overseas, but that isn't a new trend. Manufacturing started offshoring in the 50's or maybe even earlier and the tech sector has been doing it since at least early 90's that I know of. A lot of the gains in the stock market in the 90's were from this outsourcing, I think now a lot of the companies are hitting the point of diminishing returns from outsourcing/offshoring especially the larger ones.
To get off subject a little - but still in the spirit of the economy - the housing affordability index which measures the the percentage of US households that can afford the median priced home is dropping...i.e. few families are able to afford the median priced home.
Outsourcing is actually accelerating...more and more the folks I talk to are not located in the U.S. but overseas. India is becoming a huge site for outsourced software development and customer support call centers. Many other instances of this are present. Call Dell computer's tech support...odds are you'll get a non-native english speaking tech on the line. Same with other computer firms. Boeing is going to be outsourcing portions of it's newest airline the 7E7 to offshore manufacturing companies. Automotive companies are outsourcing to Mexico and Canada at ever increasing rates.
I for one would like to keep American jobs in America but we live in a global economy.
Did the L.A. Times article need you to log in? Shouldn't have for the first week's news...older news does. I use a 'disposable' Hotmail email account for these kinds of activities anyway so that I can drop the email address if it gets spammed. You should read the article - it was pretty interesting. I think the Labor Statistians contact only 60K homes to get their data.

572Daytona
08-24-2004, 11:57 AM
To get off subject a little - but still in the spirit of the economy - the housing affordability index which measures the the percentage of US households that can afford the median priced home is dropping...i.e. few families are able to afford the median priced home.
I think the key word there is median priced home, which is very much skewed by the big$$$ luxury homes that people own. The median house price in the county where I live is very high but it includes a lot of lake houses, some in the millions of dollars. You can still buy houses in the low 100's here. Home ownership is higher than ever I believe so people can and are affording houses.
Outsourcing is actually accelerating...more and more the folks I talk to are not located in the U.S. but overseas. India is becoming a huge site for outsourced software development and customer support call centers. Many other instances of this are present. Call Dell computer's tech support...odds are you'll get a non-native english speaking tech on the line. Same with other computer firms. Boeing is going to be outsourcing portions of it's newest airline the 7E7 to offshore manufacturing companies. Automotive companies are outsourcing to Mexico and Canada at ever increasing rates.
Do you have any statistics on the accelleration? I work for one of the larger outsourcers and my client is another large company that outsources and we were doing the india (and Canda and Mexico) thing in the 90's both for call centers and tech jobs. I've actually seen signs of saturation though, as most of the jobs that can be done more efficiently somewhere else have already gone.
Did the L.A. Times article need you to log in? Shouldn't have for the first week's news...older news does. I use a 'disposable' Hotmail email account for these kinds of activities anyway so that I can drop the email address if it gets spammed. You should read the article - it was pretty interesting. I think the Labor Statistians contact only 60K homes to get their data.
Yep it asked, I don't have a hotmail account either as I figured they would harvest personal info from me as well. I've never been a big fan of statistics knowing they can be massaged to produce pretty much any result you want. I try to form my opinions based on what I see happening around me.

Essex502
08-24-2004, 12:41 PM
Do you have any statistics on the accelleration? I work for one of the larger outsourcers and my client is another large company that outsources and we were doing the india (and Canda and Mexico) thing in the 90's both for call centers and tech jobs. I've actually seen signs of saturation though, as most of the jobs that can be done more efficiently somewhere else have already gone.
Just the trade journals in paper form that I've read and the anecdotal experiences I have in supporting computer users. There was a recent article though I can't remember where I read it that talked about the explosion of call centers and software companies springing up in India. Several of my software and hardware vendors have recently opened locations in the third world countries.
Yep it asked, I don't have a hotmail account either as I figured they would harvest personal info from me as well. I've never been a big fan of statistics knowing they can be massaged to produce pretty much any result you want. I try to form my opinions based on what I see happening around me.
Here ya' go:
Disparate Jobs Data Add Up to a Mystery
By David Streitfeld, Times Staff Writer
More than half a million unemployed people say their fortunes improved dramatically last month: They got a job.
Now if only someone could prove it.
According to the government's regular survey of the nation's households, 629,000 people started work in July. But when the government asked companies how many jobs they had added to their payrolls, the answer was only 32,000.
If they're not working in a store, office or factory, what are those 597,000 other folks doing? Working as consultants? Selling bric-a-brac on EBay? Mowing their neighbors' lawns?
Or are they actually unemployed but so ashamed that they're lying about it?
"I can't tell you," said Tom Nardone, chief of the Division of Labor Force Statistics of the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics. "We just don't know why there's a difference between the surveys."
The split was also pronounced in California, where the state's payroll survey showed employers cutting 17,300 jobs in July. But the household survey found a gain of 44,000 jobs.
These new workers resemble the dead in the movie "The Sixth Sense": Only some people can spot them.
Those catching a glimpse seem to be mostly Republicans. Vice President Dick Cheney, for instance, can see them clearly. They're freelancers, private contractors, people working at home. They're not on the roster of any corporation's human resources department but are prospering anyway.
They're people, for example, like his wife.
At an Aug. 11 campaign appearance in Missouri, the vice president said Lynne Cheney "does very well in terms of her own professional career and line of work, but she doesn't work for anybody…. If you're in business for yourself, if you've got your own small business and so forth, you don't get picked up by those other numbers."
The "other numbers," the corporate payrolls, have been slumping this summer.
That's an ominous sign for the reelection prospects of Cheney and President Bush. Whatever attention isn't being focused on Iraq is on the economy, which means jobs. Rising employment makes people feel secure. They know that if their own job doesn't work out, there are many more out there.
Calculating employment is a massive task. To estimate payroll levels, the Bureau of Labor Statistics queries 400,000 so-called work sites every month about their hiring activities.
Whether the reason is outsourcing to China and India, rising corporate healthcare costs, increased efficiencies from technology or just general queasiness, the work sites haven't been in a hiring mode for a long time. Since March 2001, two months after the Bush administration took office, company payrolls are down a cumulative 1.2 million.
But when the government asks 60,000 people directly about employment, as it also does every month, the jobs picture looks healthier. Although the 629,000 jump in July was unusually high, the cumulative increase in the household survey since March 2001 is 1.8 million jobs.
Naturally, the administration likes the household numbers much better. Cheney isn't the only one championing them.
"The divergence between the household and the payrolls survey is very striking, and I'll leave it to statisticians to try to reconcile those numbers," Treasury Secretary John W. Snow said after the July numbers were released Aug. 6. "I suppose that the real number lies somewhere in between."
Nardone, the BLS statistician, has been trying just such a reconciliation. By smoothing, revising and adjusting the July data, he eliminated a third of the new employed, leaving 402,000 unexplained new workers.
But over the longer term, tweaking the household survey to bring it in line with the payroll survey actually increased the gap. Since July 2003, the cumulative difference, even after reconciliation, is 1 million jobs.
Commentators and economists with conservative affiliations have been echoing Snow's remarks, when they're not exceeding them.
"The BLS for more than a decade has been undercounting job creation, unable to keep up with changes in the structure of American business," columnist Robert Novak charged recently.
Allan Meltzer, a Carnegie Mellon University economist and a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank, said the terrific household numbers might overstate what is really going on, but that "the truth is much better" than the weak payroll numbers, which signal a troubled economy.
The summer's lousy payroll numbers, Meltzer said, "just don't fit very well with what we're seeing — rising wages, increasing disposable income, improvements in manufacturing employment."
Even partisans acknowledge that the household numbers, which are used to calculate the monthly unemployment rate, are highly variable. Although the payroll numbers have increased every month for the last year, if sometimes very modestly, there have been three occasions when the household survey reported a net decrease in jobs.
In February, for instance, when payrolls rose 21,000, household employment plunged 265,000. No one in the administration suggested then that the real employment truth lay somewhere between the two.
Many economists reject the notion that the monthly household reports offer insights that the payroll survey doesn't. The administration "is just trying to muddy the waters," said Dean Baker of the left-leaning Center for Economic and Policy Research. "The household numbers are just too erratic."
If you focus on the self-employed, the matter becomes even murkier.
The number of full-time self-employed workers increased in July by 175,000, which lends initial credence to Cheney's claims that many of the newly employed are working for themselves.
However, few of the 9.5 million people who are now self-employed exist at Lynne Cheney's level. A Bush-Cheney campaign spokesman declined a request to put a dollar figure on her husband's assertion that she was doing "very well."
Lynne Cheney earned money last year from Reader's Digest, on whose board she served, and the American Enterprise Institute. The couple said the $321,000 they donated to charity in 2003 came "primarily" from royalties on her books.
Many self-employed writers are closer to charity cases themselves. Consider Diane Feen, a 54-year-old freelance writer in Boca Raton, Fla. "My take-home pay for the entire summer will be about $1,700. I see my income and workload dwindling every year," she said.
To make ends meet, Feen lives with her mother. "I think that many people are working from home because they have no choice. My single friends are struggling more than ever," she said. "And I used to be connected and upper middle class. I used to shop at Bergdorf and Saks and I used to buy goat cheese."
If self-employed is a euphemism for poor, all workers will suffer. Much of the power in the economy over the last few years has come from consumer spending. The fewer consumers with money to spend, the worse off everyone will be.
A few days before Cheney spoke in Missouri, the BLS published a study on the self-employed. Contrary to the myth that the boom times of the 1990s led to an explosion of freelancers and contract workers, the study showed that the percentage of the population that is self-employed actually declined all through the decade.
"People like the stability of being a salaried employee," said Steven Hipple, the BLS economist who wrote the report.
Ever since the recession of 2001, however, an odd thing has been happening: The percentage of self-employed has been going up.
"What that says to me is that people are turning to self-employment because it's their only option," Hipple said.
Robert Fairlie, a professor at UC Santa Cruz, crunches the self-employment numbers slightly differently. He looks only at people who go to the trouble of incorporating themselves — a sign that they're very serious about their work.
This number, Fairlie said, has remained roughly constant over the last 25 years. "This feeling that everyone is now an entrepreneur — it just isn't the case," he said.
In the end, the mystery of the half a million new employed remains. Over a decade, economists say, the household numbers and the payroll numbers correlate pretty closely. Maybe what's going on now is just a blip, statistical noise that can't be recognized as noise.
"We over-analyze these data on a month-to-month basis," said Raymond Stone of Stone & McCarthy Research Associates. "We think of these numbers as being true measures, but they're really only estimates."

eliminatedsprinter
08-24-2004, 02:29 PM
It cracks me up that people are just starting to realize that most major socio-economic stats are bogus. When the last pres was in office the press treated these stats as if they came from God...Even the most rediculously bogus and meaningless stats like the so called "trade deficit" that no self respecting economist would ever refer to, were treated as fact and still are, if their numbers don't reflect well for the current admin.

572Daytona
08-24-2004, 02:48 PM
Thanks for posting the article, from the authors slant I can see he pretty much has already made up his mind about which numbers are accurate :rolleyes: He also puts forth a notion that self employment = poor (if you are not Cheney's wife). That is a really a stupid notion, my wife is self employed (real estate agent) and she is making more than I am being a traditional employee. I suspect there are lots of people on this board that are self employed and doing very well. I think there is some credence to the theory of self employment being on the rise, as copayments for health insurance increase and other benefits decrease there is less incentive to stay a traditional employee. Also we have a large chunk of our population (boomers) in their 50 who are financially secure enough (or were provided nice buyout packages from their former employer) that allows them the luxury of being self employed. I know it is a future goal for me, I recently got my real estate license as well and as soon as the kids are thru school (if not sooner) I will be making that change.
From what I read at the BLS website are 2 surveys, the CES (Current Employment Statistics) which is the survey of businesses and and the CPS (Current Population Survey) which is the survey of individuals. It appears that unemployment figures, which are widely accepted as pretty much accurate, are derived from the CPS. So if we accept the unemployment numbers why don't we accept the employment numbers from the same survey? I didn't do a lot of in depth research, but it sounds like the CES is done via a survey sent to employers and the CPS is done by a random survey of the population. I'm wondering if since they are sending the CES surveys to a set list of companies, that the data is somewhat stale, i.e. a lot of the data comes from more mature established companies that tend to have a stable if not declining work force, and that they aren't really capturing newer startup companies that tend to do a lot of the hiring and job creation.