Where's our water Going

[Waist Deep]

I know it's always low at this time, but has anyone heard about the water rights that were given up by the State of Cali affecting waterflow in the future?

[victorfb]

Navada. especially the Las Vegas area. and alot of it is used in haste. :burningm:

[Waist Deep]

With that being said, do we forsee a shortage of water downriver. I do understand the farmers gave up their water rights in this deal. I've got a jet, but, I gotta have a little water.

[Kilrtoy]

mexico

[Boatcop]

Mexico gets a set amount of water. A US/Mexico Treaty says they get XXX acre feet of water per year. (An acre foot is the water it takes to cover and acre of land, one foot deep)
And that's what we give them. No more, no less. In fact, there's a man-made lake down by Yuma (Mittrey Lake) that's only purpose is to store water for Mexico. In good water times, any excess is pumped into the lake. In drought times, the water is pumped back out, strictly to ensure that Mexico gets no more or less than they are entitled to.
(Except in cases like 1983 when the whole River flooded out and we had more than we could handle. We just let the flood continue into the Gulf.)
When River using States and Entities didn't use their entire allotment of water, the Bureau of Reclamation (BOR) allowed the excess to go to California. Usually this was what Arizona and Nevada didn't use.
But now that Nevada needs it's full allotment, and Arizona is almost to capacity, California is whining that they don't have enough water, and trying to force the BOR to give them what they've always got (and more) even though it wasn't theirs to begin with.
California is a desert. If it wasn't for Southern California draining the Owens River Project dry, and sucking up more than it's share of Colorado River water, the neighborhoods where most of you live would look no different than the areas surrounding Parker and Lake Havasu.
Start conserving now. Because in a few years there won't be enough water for thirsty California lawns and Golf Courses.

[djdtpr]

Ahmen to that.I live in the Bermuda Dunes area and the golf courses take an amazing amount of water but what is really crazy is drive into town and see how green and lush it is.Thats not desert.We aso use a s#*t load of water on all the construction sites due to the AQMD there are water trucks running 24-7 down here.Our water table has dropped something like 120 feet.But without growth some of us would be out of work.

[Goodtime$]

Boatcop...We have a place south of Big River. From the farmers and the grapevine we have heard that the flow down to our lil houses is going to be way slower and less volume due to two reasons..One being corporations buying up the river side farms and increasing water intake, and more water being taken from Havi, thus hurting the flow do us blythesonians....
any help could be great, its hard to get correct info from the indians..thanks

[Mandelon]

MWD says they don't need more than their allotment. Don't know if I believe them or not...... California used the excess water for years, that is true, but it kept it from going to waste. CA will get its legal allotment, but no more, and have to deal with it.
Here in San Diego we use less water now than we did in 1990. This is despite the hundreds of thousands of new residents. We have low flow toilets, showerheads, low emitter sprinklers, etc. Some other counties don't even have water meters yet. Others pay a flat rate, since their counties don't bother to read the meters they do have. It is estimated those homes waste 20% or more of their water since they don't pay directly for their usage.
If your bill reflects actual usage, conservation takes place. SD did arrange to purchase part of the Imperial Valley water, and we pay for idled farmland.
If the drought continues, desalination will occur, probably within a decade. But Arizona and Nevada will be paying for it. They will need more than their legal allotment of water, and will arrange to buy California's share of Colorado watershed. It will need to be replaced with desalinated water.
Unless someone builds a pipeline to the Mississippi, its gonna happen. Its just a matter of time.
I sure hope it starts raining again....... :frown:

[shueman]

The way I understand it, every drop that leaves Hoover Dam is spoken for, years in advance. If we don't get measurable rain by 2006, then the rationing will begin....including closing Lake Powell to recreation...

[Boatcop]

Corporations don't buy water or water rights. Only political entities and their subdivisions have that right. Many of these political subdivisions form corporations to handle the procedures, but that is just a legal term. A group of farmers may form a "district" as in the Palo Verde Irrigation District, but that's still considered a political subdivision. It's not like Enron, General Mills, or a privately help company that's getting the water.
As far as water rights being bought and sold, it's done all the time. As this is being typed, Havasu City is looking into spending tens of millions of dollars for the water rights to 15,000 acre feet from the Cibola Irrigation District.
As for where Goodtimes lives, what happens in other places shouldn't affect anything on the Reservation. Indian Tribes, even those not actually on the Colorado River, have the highest priority when it comes to water rights. CRIT, which provides water to anyone living on the Reservation, is one of those with more water than they need.
Water is the lifef blood of the Southwest. Wars have been fought over it, people have died for it. It's been that way since the white man first found the Colorado River.
There was even a war between California and Arizona over the building of Parker Dam, with despite what anyone tells you, was primarily to provide water storage to the Los Angeles Metropolitan Water District. It didn't last long, since the Arizona Navy, (actually Arizona Militia on commandeered boats) which was sent by the Governor to prevent Dam work on the Arizona side, got tangled up in construction cables and had to be rescued by the very construction workers they were sent to repel.
A treaty was signed shortly thereafter and the Dam finally finished.
Similar wars are still being fought, but now the battle is raged in the courtroom, with more water rights issues going to the US Supreme Court than any other single legal issue.

[C-2]

See there, you can actually learn stuff on HB.
:)

[haulina29]

Private partys and corporations buy water rights on a daily basis . I recently purchased the rights to several parcels water . You may be refering to a larger scale like citys, If you have water rights for large parcels you can send that water where ever you want when you want as long as you meet the terms specified "specific pumping times etc" . The city I live in buys water rights from private partys when ever they can farmers etc, infact water rights are a great barganing tool .

[Mandelon]

Are you referring to riparian rights that would come along with waterfront or riverfront property? If a property fronts a body of water, the owner has a right to the access and use of the water, perhaps that is what the city or municipality is buying???
Water law is fairly complicated indeed. Much depending upon prior usage and history. Some of that being more powerful than state law.

[CrazyHippy]

Navada. especially the Las Vegas area. and alot of it is used in haste. :burningm:
Las vegans are allowed to use the water that they pay for to water their lawn ONE day per week. Most lawns are turning brown and dieing, yet Los angeles has no watering restrictions, and Los angelinos are bitching about water useage in Vegas... this is BS.
BJH :eat:

[Sleek-Jet]

There is all sorts of wild ideas being floated (no pun intended) in Colorado to store or divert the state's water allotment on the River. As of now, most of Colorado's allotment of the River's water shed goes downstream unused. If this happens, downstream flows will be affected even more than now.
The city of Tucson has purchased much of the irrigated farm land around the City, mearly for the water rights. The city is currently finishing up a filtration experiment in which the water is pumped into huge shallow ponds and the percolated down through layers of rock and then pumped to the treatment facilities. It's the only way to use irrigation water for domestic water (the process removes the sediment). They plan on a full scale project that is currently under construction, to water the Tucson area.

[Mandelon]

There is all sorts of wild ideas being floated (no pun intended) in Colorado to store or divert the state's water allotment on the River. As of now, most of Colorado's allotment of the River's water shed goes downstream unused. .
You mean unused by Colorado? Cuz its not getting wasted or sent to Mexico. Its probably going on my lawn... :messedup:

[shueman]

Las vegans are allowed to use the water that they pay for to water their lawn ONE day per week. Most lawns are turning brown and dieing, yet Los angeles has no watering restrictions, and Los angelinos are bitching about water useage in Vegas... this is BS.
BJH :eat:
Funny....the golf courses look pretty green... :D

[CrazyHippy]

The golf courses are paying big bucks too... :supp: and they are still conserving compared to what they want to use...
The biggest problem w/ the Colorado river watershed is the giant leach hanging off the west side of it. You should read the book Cadillac Desert It's about the water problems of the southwest, and very informative.
BJH

[C-2]

And speaking of water - my water bill for the month....$146.84
WTF, Riverside is on well water. And yes, that's water only. Electricity another $304.87, city services $82.47 = $534.18 for one month!
We have a piece of horse property with our own well (no city services) - $5.69 TOTAL, up from $5.20 last month (damnit).
--------
70% of the earth is covered by water;
but only 2.5% of that amount is fresh water.
Time to seed some clouds!!!

[LVjetboy]

"CA will get its legal allotment, but no more, and have to deal with it."
Excuse me? According to the last agreement, CA will continue to get MORE than their legal allotment for years to come (10 years) I can provide documents to prove that. And you can bet when that time comes, CA will fight to maintain their over-allotment which is btw significantly over what other states get. Where does it go? Well, I've heard CA just filled a new lake anybody know it's name? How many acre-feet of water was that? By comparison, how many new lakes were filled in NV or AZ?
"But Arizona and Nevada will be paying for it. They will need more than their legal allotment of water"
Their legal allotment? Anyone know when "legal allotment" was originally decided? Times change for all states. Big time changes for AZ and NV as a percentage, yet legal allotment hasn't. My point is, CA historically has overused it's allotment, will continue to do so in the future even though they were alloted more in the first place. NV had very little share. So what's 10% more than zippo?
I don't favor LV growth or golf courses in the desert. Neither do I think CA should fill a new lake with their apparently, politically gauranteed excess...ESPECIALLY during a drought. Yet political powers dictate what happens and I think AZ and NV have less political power compared to CA. Seems so far, CA gets what CA wants.
In the end, Lake Powell and Lake Mead suffer for the historic excesses of the state of California, and the explosive growth in the southwest as a whole. So also our hobby and passion. The leadership in all states lacking the backbone and foresight to plan ahead. That lame ass "leadership" bending to short term money and lobbiest for development no matter the state instead of long term prosperity. Sure, population growth in all states adds to the misery. But as a percentage of water use, others SW states are dwarfed by the excess use of California.
Of course if you don't boat on Powell or Mead why care? They just happen to be the most amazing lakes in the United States...and yes I've boated many, many lakes and rivers across this country. But if you only boat polluted, small and law restricted California lakes then maybe you don't care about Powell or Mead. And yes I've boated CA lakes and rivers too. Elsinore, Puddingstone, Sacramento river to name a few. But if you've ever had the opportunity to experience the wonder of boating Powell or Mead, you'll know why I'm passionate about this topic.
You won't see this on CA lakes or rivers or Kentucky lakes or Tennessee or Maryland, or Ohio, or Washington or New Mexico or California...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain1.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain2.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain3.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain4.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain5.jpg
You got the freakin' picture?? As a CA resident, you may care less about Mead or Powell and justify your opinion local based politics or agricultrual concerns. In the end.... Who do you think really cares about your concerns?
jer

[Sleek-Jet]

You mean unused by Colorado? Cuz its not getting wasted or sent to Mexico. Its probably going on my lawn... :messedup:
Yep. Unused by Colorado. I can't remember the exact percentage, but it's more than half of Colorado's water allotment goes down-stream. There are plans being proposed to divert water at the Colorado/Utah border and pump it into several large storage reseviours to be constructed north of the River or pumped directly through the mountains to the Front Range.

[gramps]

Water use takes wisdom Gale Norton Sept. 12, 2004 12:00 AM
The Colorado River basin is in the fifth year of a record-setting drought. Although this drought is serious, Arizona is not in a crisis because previous generations had the foresight to build reservoirs, such as Lake Powell and Lake Mead, that save water for use in drought years.
Arizona's right to use Colorado River water is far safer today than it was just three years ago.
Since 1922, Arizona and other Colorado River basin states have been concerned that California might use more than its legal share of Colorado River water. These concerns were laid to rest in December 2002, when I enforced the Law of the Colorado River by curtailing excess water deliveries to California.
This led to the Colorado River Water Delivery Agreement in October 2003, which established a new framework for California's water use. This agreement implemented the "California 4.4. Plan" that provides Arizona and other basin states with additional assurance that California will not use more than its share of the Colorado River.
However, because we do not know when the drought will break, it is critical that we use water supplies wisely, so that the drought does not become a crisis for Arizona. A number of cooperative efforts are under way to protect Arizona's water resources.
Conservation, of course, is vital. Every drop that Arizona saves through water conservation today is a drop that can be stored and saved for future use. The Bush administration's Water 2025 initiative focuses on water conservation, and I recently announced the award of water conservation challenge grants under the program for important projects in Arizona that will increase the state's ability to store and manage its water.
A multispecies conservation plan, agreed to recently by Arizona, California and Nevada, will protect the environment while ensuring the certainty of continued water and power operations on the Colorado River.
The $600 million, 50-year plan will not only save endangered species but will protect habitat to prevent other species from becoming endangered. The Central Arizona Project Board voted unanimously on Aug. 5 to support this program, providing key financial commitments that will allow the effort to begin early next year.
Arizonans are understandably concerned that if the Colorado River does not have enough water, Arizona, by law, will be the first state to have its supplies cut. Arizona agreed to accept this approach in drought situations in exchange for getting congressional approval of the Central Arizona Project in 1968. I recognize the importance of this issue to Arizona and to those who rely on the project, and I believe that further discussions with other Colorado River basin states are important to avoid reaching this point.
For many years, the Arizona congressional delegation has been working tirelessly to enact legislation that would settle outstanding water rights claims of the Gila River Indian Community and provide important benefits to all who rely on the Central Arizona Project. This pending legislation - the Arizona Water Settlement Act of 2003 - would provide certainty regarding use of CAP water in a number of ways. These provisions are especially important in times of drought.
The Yuma Desalting Plant was built in the 1980s to offset losses in U.S. water supplies due to water-quality requirements of the U.S.-Mexico Treaty on the Colorado River. To date, it has not been necessary to operate the plant, but the drought has created a new focus on the need to resolve issues relating to the operation of the plant.
The Department of the Interior understands that decisions regarding the manner in which the United States meets its obligations under the U.S.-Mexico treaty should be made in a way that does not increase the risk of shortages to Arizona and the Central Arizona Project.
Water is the Southwest's most precious natural resource. To ensure the continued well-being of Arizona and the other basin states, we must continue to work together - as previous generations did - to wisely use and manage the Colorado River.
The writer is Secretary of the Interior.

[Mardonzi]

Someone must have done their raindance right,, we've had over 2 inches of rain here in Page (Wahweap/Lake Powell) since midnight.. If it keeps up, for say the next 3 weeks, we might just fill this place back up again!!

[Waist Deep]

No doubt California gets its way no matter what. My observance in the past 8 years or so is that the water level towards Blythe has raised quite significantly, but now we are back to the lower levels we were accustomed to. My understanding was that due to some legal mumbo jumbo, flows from here on out were to be reduced, which I know is partly due to the fact that the Gov. studied how farmers in Imperial Valley irragate their crops and were amazed by the fact that they still flood their fields and the waste generated by this is amazing. They now want the district to use more conventional methods , such as sprinklers, which personally, I think is a great idea. This is what I believed to be the reason that the State is going to get less water. Someone noticed how much was being wasted. As for those writing about Powell and other Lakes suffering because of this, you are right. But will anything really change?

[gramps]

the city of St. George, Utah (which is run by a bunch of idiots) is trying to get a ~50" diameter pipe run from Powell to St. George. St. George in in the middle of the damm desert and they are build houses faster than you would beleive.

[C-2]

Hoover and Glen Canyon were built after lobbying by, surprise surprise, California – not Nevada or even Arizona. Without Southern California and Lake Mead, Vegas would still be tumbleweed alongside a trail. To cry foul against California now seems a bit harsh.
California took more than its share of water because it was excess water – water that could not be managed and used by Arizona and Nevada. Both states until recently couldn’t accommodate their full allocation.
The lakes are reservoirs with the primary purpose of controlling river flow and storing water. Little, if any, consideration is given to recreation – and rightfully so. As a Southern California resident, if we get banished from our recreational opportunities on the lakes due to necessity - then so be it, I’ll move on to other recreational opportunities.
I recently saw a program on Lake Las Vegas and their own water conservation program. It is impressive, they have taken water management to another level at that place.
BTW
Southern California is using 30% less water now, than it was almost 20 years ago. This has been accomplished by more efficient use of groundwater, subsurface water, recycling and conservation.
:)

[Mandelon]

"CA will get its legal allotment, but no more, and have to deal with it."
Excuse me? According to the last agreement, CA will continue to get MORE than their legal allotment for years to come (10 years) I can provide documents to prove that. And you can bet when that time comes, CA will fight to maintain their over-allotment which is btw significantly over what other states get. Where does it go? Well, I've heard CA just filled a new lake anybody know it's name? How many acre-feet of water was that? By comparison, how many new lakes were filled in NV or AZ?
"But Arizona and Nevada will be paying for it. They will need more than their legal allotment of water"
Their legal allotment? Anyone know when "legal allotment" was originally decided? Times change for all states. Big time changes for AZ and NV as a percentage, yet legal allotment hasn't. My point is, CA historically has overused it's allotment, will continue to do so in the future even though they were alloted more in the first place. NV had very little share. So what's 10% more than zippo?
I don't favor LV growth or golf courses in the desert. Neither do I think CA should fill a new lake with their apparently, politically gauranteed excess...ESPECIALLY during a drought. Yet political powers dictate what happens and I think AZ and NV have less political power compared to CA. Seems so far, CA gets what CA wants.
In the end, Lake Powell and Lake Mead suffer for the historic excesses of the state of California, and the explosive growth in the southwest as a whole. So also our hobby and passion. The leadership in all states lacking the backbone and foresight to plan ahead. That lame ass "leadership" bending to short term money and lobbiest for development no matter the state instead of long term prosperity. Sure, population growth in all states adds to the misery. But as a percentage of water use, others SW states are dwarfed by the excess use of California.
Of course if you don't boat on Powell or Mead why care? They just happen to be the most amazing lakes in the United States...and yes I've boated many, many lakes and rivers across this country. But if you only boat polluted, small and law restricted California lakes then maybe you don't care about Powell or Mead. And yes I've boated CA lakes and rivers too. Elsinore, Puddingstone, Sacramento river to name a few. But if you've ever had the opportunity to experience the wonder of boating Powell or Mead, you'll know why I'm passionate about this topic.
You got the freakin' picture?? As a CA resident, you may care less about Mead or Powell and justify your opinion local based politics or agricultrual concerns. In the end.... Who do you think really cares about your concerns?
jer
Nice job taking a couple lines and pulling them out of context. Don't get huffy at me, LVJ. I am not trying to make a stink. We are pretty careful in our usage around here.
But when AZ and NV need more than their allotment what do you think is gonna happen???????? The only other body of water I see is the Pacific...
The reservoirs are there to store water, that's what they do. They aren't "suffering," they are performing exactly as designed. The store water in the good years and release it in the dry years. They aren't really lakes at all, if not for the dams they would not exist.....
The new lake, near Hemet is the Domengioni or Diamond Valley (I think) is to store water locally instead of far away in case an earthquake damages the pipeline. It is supposed to provide a few months worth of water till the pipelines would be fixed.
It was the forsight of Los Angeles, Mulholland and the MWD along with the political clout of CA that has helped to make all the growth in the southwest possible.
In years past the other states have not needed their allotment and had no means to store it. Why should it go to waste? Why shouldn't CA use it? Once the other states do take their full allotment, CA will be out of luck.....as it should be. As posted above in red, CA will get its allotment, and the other states will get theirs. If the drought continues the allotments would certainly be reduced reduced by whatever the flow is.
Imperial Valley farmers are pretty wasteful, you can flooded fields along the 95 in Yuma as well. Those canals will be lined with concrete as part of conservation measures being implemented now. The mexicans are getting upset by that too. The seepage that has kept their wells wet will be greatly curtailed.
We have had no programs to start conservation measures though. Seems foolish to me to wait till the last minute.....There are low flow appliances and grey water usages now that did not use to exist.

[Racer277]

Wars have been fought over it, people have died for it. It's been that way since the white man first found the Colorado River.
And will continue apparantly.
As a Californian :redface: I can say that I am concerned about water usage, lake levels, and gov't decisions. But as with everything it doesn't seem to matter what we want as citizens, the bureacrats will do what is best for them at any time. And what is best for them is special interest groups.
I've been telling my wife for 10 years "we need a rock lawn like in Havasu". If a weed sprouts up, I'll spray a little avgas on it, no weed. :D
She just won't go for it though.
Oh, our water bill for last month: $13.75
R277

[Racer277]

It was the forsight of Los Angeles, Mulholland and the MWD along with the political clout of CA that has helped to make all the growth in the southwest possible.
Well, their forsight was for him and his buddies to get very rich. They did devestate a lot of land up north so they could become as rich as they did. Also, worked alot of farmers out of their land and rights.

[Mandelon]

That's true.

[C-2]

MWD - now here's an agency which needs to be roped and tamed. They are out of control.
Their favorite tactic to get voter, state or congressional approval -
Create panic by issuing dire report warnings.
Get approval.
After approval is obtained and rights/project completed - say it wasn't as bad as predicted but are very "prepared" nonetheless.
Or they just change their minds/position like they did at Diamond Valley. :mad: :mad:

[Squirtin Thunder]

I just orderd dirt for my new lawn that we are putting in because Bullhead is so damm brown. I miss the green of NC. I have put a underground drip system in and sprinklers on a timer. This way I will be able to water in my sleep. And I will have a super green lawn that will take me all of a hour to mow. 10min. getting the sticks off the lawn before mowing, 5min. putting gas in, 15min of actual mowing, 25 min. of clean up, and 5 min of removing the gas. My wife asked for a lawn and she is getting it. We will have two patches 17' x 13'. It will make our place look so much more nicer. But like I have said water useage will be limited and guarded. Last month my water bill was only $11.53 and I expect it to only go up about $5.00. But then again I have installed those crazy water limiting devices in the showers and put two bricks in the toletts. The way I look at it is everything will work out and not to really worry about things you as an indevidual can not change. But if I lived on the River I would have two Football Fields.
Jim

[Waist Deep]

Two Bricks in the Toilets?

[pleasantcat]

ok guys, for those in california who are lucky to have an option...USE IT!
we here in az and nv do not have an ocean beating on our shores. we have a small river getting smaller. if cali. would impliment desalination much of the water problems would diminish. we as humans keep building bigger and broader metropolitan areas requiring water. and now that were in the fifth year of a serious draught the one state that has an out is not exersizing that option. can someone from the land of fruits and nuts explain why?????
just my .02 and an attempt at sounding smart :eek:

[Mandelon]

Desalination is very expensive. It will be a last resort option once CA uses up all the fresh water it can....... :eek: There is still water for a few more years even without rainfall.
Nothing ever happens at the government level until there is a crisis...... :sleeping:

[Flyinbowtie]

Mandelon nailed it.
Government, by it's nature, is very poor in the proactive planning dept.
It responds to crisises, puts out fires, etc.
I haved lived in Northern Calinfornia, the foothills of the Sierra Nevada, for over 25 years. I remember the drought of 73- 78. The college dorm I was living in had a rule for toilet use. Flush only on #2. Tahoe was about 60 ft. below it's natural rim, Folsom was a puddle after the 4th of July, and the Sierra lakes and Resivoirs were all drying up. Lawns in the Sacto area were brown, you could get a ticket for a grenn one, or washing your car other than with a bucket.Water was only brought to your table in a restuarant only if you asked for it.
What water there was in the north state was being used to keep the Sac/San Joaquin Delta flushed of salt water, thus keeping the Valley Ag community in production, and irrigating the crops there. The controversial Hech-Hetchy Res. was feeding the Bay aea. They weren't bitching about it, then.
And the California Aqueduct Was delivering every drop of water that wasn't going into the valley agri-business to Southern California. Keeping pools and lawns green. My future in-laws down south had no meter on their water. Still don't. Water was running down the gutters. I remember visiting and thinking, "At home, I can't flush when I pee, so all these little rivers can run down the street in So cal."
This was about the time the North-South split of California gained political momentum.
Boaters have a vested interest in water, like farmers, homeowners in river/lake communites, etc. So we stay aware and informed. The rest of the folks won't believe that there is a water shortage until THEY turn on THEIR faucet, and NOTHING COMES OUT. People live in very small worlds. Home, work, backyard.
We have a lot of work to do to change this mentality. The way government does that is by taxing the hell out of the product/behavior in question. Taking peoples money does get their attention. It sucks, but that is probably what things will come to.
The water problem we are facing shares a fact with the volitility of the oil industry.
We have not built a refinery in the U.S. in thiry years. Why? in some part, it is due to the environmental extremsim /social engineer crowd infesting the government bureacracy at the mid-management and field worker level. The whackos think refineries are bad. The process in building one in this state, would take about 30 years. I doubt that there is even a proposal procedure in place.
This is the same crowd that won't allow timber compaines to thin overgown forests, then cries fowl when a harvest plan is prepped for the then-burned forests. Feeling very self-righteous, they drive to their home built of wood. The same crowd that wants to save the pristine river valley, but wants to," live in the country" The same crowd that wants to eliminate Nuclear Power, but doesn't want to support a new dam, which will supply clean power and water for a growing population. We are just going to keep paying the price, like we do at the gas pump every day, and in the 7-11 when we buy a bottle of water for a buck and a half.
Until people in the west stop procreating, and stop moving here, we are going to be faced with increasing water conservation and increasing sources.
Being a bit of a pessimist, I don't think people are going to wake up to this until that faucet thing hits home.

[Squirtin Thunder]

Everyone should do there part and drop two bricks in the tolet. It will save ware and money. So its a win for everyone. BTW- the two bricks is something from the drout of the '70s in CA.
Jim

[Racer277]

Until people in the west stop procreating, and stop moving here, we are going to be faced with increasing water conservation and increasing sources.
Being a bit of a pessimist, I don't think people are going to wake up to this until that faucet thing hits home.
Couldn't have said it better myself! Nice Tirade, I agree 100%.
Then again, I'm a pessimist also.
:rolleyes:

[flat broke]

I have to laugh my arse off at the self righteous tone of those that live outside so. cal and as such are instantly morraly superior in their stance on water conservation. First off, water conservation has been an issue in many So. Cal communities and is taught in the public school system. Most everyone I know in our local area uses conservation shower heads, and displacement devices in their toilet tanks (or low capacity/volume tanks).
Second, a lot of the people that are so agro in their verbal assault on Southern Californians happen to live in the middle of the freaking desert themselves. In an area with unchecked growth and poor resource planning that makes even So Cal look like we know what the hell we are doing.
You want to save water? slap a rubber on your cock, or get your chick on the pill. Now do that for every freaking imigrant that lands on the West coast or crawls up from down south. Human beings are composed mostly of water and consume a crap load of it in their day to day activities (be they conservationists or not) Thus a ton of the "wasted" water everyone is crying about is actually running around collecting welfare enabling them to waste even more water. Sounds whacked, but its true. So before you step up on your soap box, do the math on the population increase in Vegas in the past 10 years, multiply that by the average weight of the humans in that demographic, then mulitply that by .75, then divide that by 7 and that will give you a rough idea of how many gallons of wasted water are walking around your neighborhood. On a population of 100,000 people with an average weight of 150lbs, thats roughly 1.6 million gallons of water just walking around. That says nothing of the water consumed by those individuals. So yeah we can all be freaking self righteous bastards and complain but the source of some of our problems isn't always as simple as it appears. So all whacko conservationist types should also be pro abortion, and down for executing illegal imigrants... but the train of thought never carries past what is fashionable or serves one's imediate purpose.
Chris

[CrazyHippy]

Arizona and Nevada are still not using more than they have been alotted :notam:
BJH

[Mandelon]

Arizona and Nevada are still not using more than they have been alotted :notam:
BJH
But eventually they will grow enough to do so. And sometime after that, then they will need more than their allotment.....

[flat broke]

Arizona and Nevada are still not using more than they have been alotted :notam:
BJH
Yet... Let the birthrate of your newly found populous catch up with you and see where you are. The problem isn't the amount of water, its the amount of people. Development without regard for how all these phucking people are going to drink, shower, and eat, or where their piss, crap, and garbage is going to go is the real problem. And that isn't a California/Arizona/Nevada issue. That is a social awareness and accountability issue. And I'll be damned if you don't happen to see Democrats hugging tree's and screaming conserve this, protect that in one breath, then encouraging a free ride and unchecked birthrates in low income areas through our welfare system in the other.
If you live in Vegas and are pissed cause you can't water your lawn, you should be just as pissed at your local planning comission for growing bigger than the natural resources would provide for; as you are at Californian's who have had their claim(whether right or wrong) to the water longer than the new found populous moving out to the middle of a freaking desert.
Chris

[Sleek-Jet]

I have to laugh my arse off at the self righteous tone of those that live outside so. cal and as such are instantly morraly superior in their stance on water conservation. First off, water conservation has been an issue in many So. Cal communities and is taught in the public school system. Most everyone I know in our local area uses conservation shower heads, and displacement devices in their toilet tanks (or low capacity/volume tanks).
Second, a lot of the people that are so agro in their verbal assault on Southern Californians happen to live in the middle of the freaking desert themselves. In an area with unchecked growth and poor resource planning that makes even So Cal look like we know what the hell we are doing.
You want to save water? slap a rubber on your cock, or get your chick on the pill. Now do that for every freaking imigrant that lands on the West coast or crawls up from down south. Human beings are composed mostly of water and consume a crap load of it in their day to day activities (be they conservationists or not) Thus a ton of the "wasted" water everyone is crying about is actually running around collecting welfare enabling them to waste even more water. Sounds whacked, but its true. So before you step up on your soap box, do the math on the population increase in Vegas in the past 10 years, multiply that by the average weight of the humans in that demographic, then mulitply that by .75, then divide that by 7 and that will give you a rough idea of how many gallons of wasted water are walking around your neighborhood. On a population of 100,000 people with an average weight of 150lbs, thats roughly 1.6 million gallons of water just walking around. That says nothing of the water consumed by those individuals. So yeah we can all be freaking self righteous bastards and complain but the source of some of our problems isn't always as simple as it appears. So all whacko conservationist types should also be pro abortion, and down for executing illegal imigrants... but the train of thought never carries past what is fashionable or serves one's imediate purpose.
Chris
Maybe so, but this really didn't get pushed to the fore front until the upstream states started to use more of their alotment. California started to see a drop in the amount of water down stream and started to make noises. Everyone has been told by the Secretary of the Interior that they are going to have to live with the allotment as specified in the water treaties.
Good for everyone that's taking steps to conserve water. Las Vegas has all but outlawed lawns, misters are no longer legel either. Most golf courses there have greatly reduced the acerage that is grass and therfore less needs to be watered. I believe they have "water cops" that go around and look for water running in the streets, they write tickets for that as well.
Arizona needs to get on the stick and start the same kinds of draconian measures, or we will all be in a world of hurt. I have not seen any evidence of Arizona or the larger cities stepping up and putting water measures in place. It's frustrating.
Better irrigation practices will help also. I know for a fact that the land around Tucson is still flood irrigated.

[Waist Deep]

Speaking of Desalination and how much it would help, shit, right here in Huntington Beach, a company was going to come in and build it for free as long as they got a cut on the water sold. That sounds reasonable. But wait, the City Council decided that the plant would look like shit next to an ancient power plant. So no go on this. That would have been a bitchin idea. But no, our city continues to build, build and build. And where is all of the extra water coming from? Yep, the Colorado River. Those who say the govt. is a major problem have got it right on the head, but then again, so do those who question a golf course in the desert.

[Mardonzi]

undefined"CA will get its legal allotment, but no more, and have to deal with it."
Excuse me? According to the last agreement, CA will continue to get MORE than their legal allotment for years to come (10 years) I can provide documents to prove that. And you can bet when that time comes, CA will fight to maintain their over-allotment which is btw significantly over what other states get. Where does it go? Well, I've heard CA just filled a new lake anybody know it's name? How many acre-feet of water was that? By comparison, how many new lakes were filled in NV or AZ?
"But Arizona and Nevada will be paying for it. They will need more than their legal allotment of water"
Their legal allotment? Anyone know when "legal allotment" was originally decided? Times change for all states. Big time changes for AZ and NV as a percentage, yet legal allotment hasn't. My point is, CA historically has overused it's allotment, will continue to do so in the future even though they were alloted more in the first place. NV had very little share. So what's 10% more than zippo?
I don't favor LV growth or golf courses in the desert. Neither do I think CA should fill a new lake with their apparently, politically gauranteed excess...ESPECIALLY during a drought. Yet political powers dictate what happens and I think AZ and NV have less political power compared to CA. Seems so far, CA gets what CA wants.
In the end, Lake Powell and Lake Mead suffer for the historic excesses of the state of California, and the explosive growth in the southwest as a whole. So also our hobby and passion. The leadership in all states lacking the backbone and foresight to plan ahead. That lame ass "leadership" bending to short term money and lobbiest for development no matter the state instead of long term prosperity. Sure, population growth in all states adds to the misery. But as a percentage of water use, others SW states are dwarfed by the excess use of California.
Of course if you don't boat on Powell or Mead why care? They just happen to be the most amazing lakes in the United States...and yes I've boated many, many lakes and rivers across this country. But if you only boat polluted, small and law restricted California lakes then maybe you don't care about Powell or Mead. And yes I've boated CA lakes and rivers too. Elsinore, Puddingstone, Sacramento river to name a few. But if you've ever had the opportunity to experience the wonder of boating Powell or Mead, you'll know why I'm passionate about this topic.
You won't see this on CA lakes or rivers or Kentucky lakes or Tennessee or Maryland, or Ohio, or Washington or New Mexico or California...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain1.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain2.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain3.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain4.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain5.jpg
You got the freakin' picture?? As a CA resident, you may care less about Mead or Powell and justify your opinion local based politics or agricultrual concerns. In the end.... Who do you think really cares about your concerns?
jer

[INFINITEJJ]

Speaking of Desalination and how much it would help, shit, right here in Huntington Beach, a company was going to come in and build it for free as long as they got a cut on the water sold. That sounds reasonable. But wait, the City Council decided that the plant would look like shit next to an ancient power plant. So no go on this. That would have been a bitchin idea. But no, our city continues to build, build and build. And where is all of the extra water coming from? Yep, the Colorado River. Those who say the govt. is a major problem have got it right on the head, but then again, so do those who question a golf course in the desert.
I believe that MOST of Huntington Beaches water comes from it's several underground wells and pump stations. So do many of our close by cities. some even produce more than they consume. Here is the story on Huntington Beach.
Supply, Sources & Consumption
Huntington Beach fortunately lies over the Santa Ana River groundwater basin allowing us to pump 75% of the City's water supply from the basin below. Approximately 25% of the City’s water system demand is supplied by imported water. To ensure a lasting supply for the region, the basin is managed by the Orange County Water District, and the City pays a replenishment assessment to the district for each acre-foot of water taken from the groundwater basin.
Water is presently produced from nine operating water wells that vary in depth from 250 feet to 1,020 feet, with production varying from 450 gallons per minute to 4,000 gallons per minute. Total production from all nine wells is rated at 27,500 gallons per minute.
The City of Huntington Beach has three connections with the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California. One connection (OC 9) is located at Newland Street and Edinger Avenue, and has the capacity to deliver 6,750 gallons per minute into the water system. A second connection (OC 35) is located at Springdale Street and Glenwood Drive with a capacity of 11,250 gallons per minute. The third connection (OC 44) is located at the Santa Ana River and Adams Avenue with a capacity of 7,000 gallons per minute. The City of Huntington Beach has four reservoirs. Overmyer I and Overmyer II, and have a combined capacity of 24 million gallons. Peck Reservoir has a capacity of 17 million gallons. Edwards Hill Reservoir is the newest facility and has a capacity of 9 million gallons. Total combined capacity of these reservoirs is 50 million gallons. In addition, the City is currently in the process of constructing Springdale Reservoir.
The pumping capacity into the system from all reservoirs is 44,365 gallons per minute. Total capacity from all wells, reservoirs, and Metropolitan Water District connections is presently 87,980 gallons per minute. The water system has 537 miles of pipeline ranging in size from two inch to 42 inch. The City of Huntington Beach maintains emergency water connections with the cities of Fountain Valley, Seal Beach and Westminster.
Consumption
As of January 1, 2000, the population was approximately 199,326. The average daily water consumption in the City is 32 million gallons per day, with a minimum day of 11 million gallons and a maximum day of 43.0 million gallons of water used in 1995. The average daily consumption is approximately 150 gallons per day per person.

[Waist Deep]

Is it not true that if HB would have built the plant, the water from this plant could have been exported to the communities that draw from the Colorado River?

[throwerb]

Just one more reason I'm moving to tennessee :wink:

[Waist Deep]

Smart Thinking. I'm assuming they have plenty of water there since theyre probably not building casinos in the desert.

[throwerb]

Smart Thinking. I'm assuming they have plenty of water there since theyre probably not building casinos in the desert.
Not only that, you can also buy an amazing 4,000 sq ft house surrounded by lakes for less than $400,000. Can't buy a shack for that here any more. I know 9 different boaters looking at getting out of here as well. Maybe a bunch of us from the forums could go in together and buy a city :idea: :smile:

[Hotcrusader76]

This is what the river is going to look like before too long...
http://home.comcast.net/~m.uliasz6/archive/wpix3/greenriver082402_13a.jpg

[Waist Deep]

Where the hell is that? That Sucks!!!! I guess if everyone saw this, they might conserve instead of expand, expand, expand.

[Sleek-Jet]

That looks like the Colorado River below Moab, UT.

[Waist Deep]

A little bit of reality. Time to Wake Up. And I see the water we are getting in the lower half is most likely contaminated with Chromium from McCulloch. Glad to have the kids swim in this.

[shueman]

Lake Mead lake levels
Historical Data (http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/g4000/hourly/mead-elv.html)

[shueman]

Another historical link:
Colorado River Usage Data (http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/g4000/use.txt)

[Waist Deep]

Thank You for submitting the data. Those are the facts that tell us whats happening with the water. How long until something is done?

[AzLakeLizard]

LAKE POWELL
Date Elevation Content Inflow Release
(feet) (AF) (cfs) (cfs)
15-AUG-2004 3576.17 9614976 4070 14003
16-AUG-2004 3575.91 9593200 3990 14980
17-AUG-2004 3575.61 9568133 4060 14995
18-AUG-2004 3575.27 9539749 4165 14956
19-AUG-2004 3575.05 9521421 4239 14965
20-AUG-2004 3574.82 9502283 4347 14934
21-AUG-2004 3574.60 9484002 5124 13647
22-AUG-2004 3574.33 9461594 5163 13918
23-AUG-2004 3574.10 9442537 5244 15012
24-AUG-2004 3573.80 9417712 5507 14915
25-AUG-2004 3573.58 9399540 5710 14768
26-AUG-2004 3573.38 9383022 5365 14908
27-AUG-2004 3573.06 9356674 5109 14850
28-AUG-2004 3572.84 9338580 4927 13617
29-AUG-2004 3572.60 9318867 4636 13928
30-AUG-2004 3572.34 9297541 4390 14983
31-AUG-2004 3572.10 9277886 4421 13941
01-SEP-2004 3571.98 9268059 4608 8907
02-SEP-2004 3571.84 9256623 4605 8182
03-SEP-2004 3571.68 9243542 4408 8141
04-SEP-2004 3571.67 9242725 4268 7900
05-SEP-2004 3571.53 9231310 4641 8000
06-SEP-2004 3571.48 9227228 6108 8009
07-SEP-2004 3571.44 9223964 6882 8141
08-SEP-2004 3571.39 9219884 7184 8189
09-SEP-2004 3571.36 9217457 7078 8176
10-SEP-2004 3571.32 9214195 6974 8149
11-SEP-2004 3571.29 9211749 6580 7887
12-SEP-2004 3571.19 9203599 6124 7985
13-SEP-2004 3571.10 9196287 6032 8102
14-SEP-2004 3571.04 9191402 5917 8157
15-SEP-2004 3570.91 9180823 5656 8125
16-SEP-2004 3570.83 9174337 5528 8135
17-SEP-2004 3570.72 9165396 5396 8153
18-SEP-2004 3570.57 9153234 5207 7881
19-SEP-2004 3570.74 9167022 5026 7970
20-SEP-2004 3570.71 9164584 5041 8155
21-SEP-2004 3570.68 9162147 7664 8137
22-SEP-2004 3570.65 9159710 10813 8143
23-SEP-2004 3570.68 9162147 11756 8138
24-SEP-2004 --- --- --- ---
All data is provisional and subject to review and modification

[shueman]

Thank You for submitting the data. Those are the facts that tell us whats happening with the water. How long until something is done?
Don't see anything new in their 2005 operations forecast by the BOR.

[Misogynist]

I see Powell is down another 6 feet from Aug........... :( I've been to Powell when it was 2 feet above the spillway ( they put up plywood across the spillway because the pentstock was being destroyed by all the water going through it ) and I've been at Powell in the early 70's when the water level is what it is now... I still enjoyed the trips.... There is actually more to see when the water level is lower... more beaches.... more exposed hiking areas... But the problem of water in the Southwest isn't simple... I've heard that most of the water from the Owen's river area ends up being used for agriculture... almost 80% of it... For all you people that like beef.... here is some startling news... it takes as much water to float a battleship as it does to raise one steer to full size... between the water that the steer drinks... and the water that is used to produce the feed for the steer... it's that much... scary thought... ok guys... stop eating beef... listen to the veg-heads.... "meat is murder".... just kidding..... I believe there is room for all of god's creatures..... right next to my mashed potatoes......... :D
People forget that the Sierra club lobbied to kill ( they were successful) the damns that were proposed in the grand canyon. We would have three more reservoirs on the Colorado if it weren't for them.... There was a huge outcry when Glen Canyon damn was built and the canyon went underwater.
I've heard the arguement that we wouldn't have the water shortage if we didn'thave so many illegal aliens here... that is partially true.... I know we don't have any extra burden on the sanitary landfills here in SoCAl... it seems every illegal I've seen walking down the street doesn't have the concept of trash recepticals and their use.... They will walk right by the can in front of my shop and drop their trash in the street as they walk by. :mad:
There has to be a happy medium between conservation of water and management of the resource. I've heard Havasu will remain "static" in level because of the need for Arizona... that Powell will suffer the most.. then Mead... :jawdrop:
I'm just glad I don't have a lawn to water... and I don't have a hoard of children flushing my toilet... I think in worst case senario.... SoCAl could actually build a desalination plant and use sea water.... You guys are going to laugh... but there was an area of Van Nuys that they were proposing a "Toilet to tap" reclamation project... but since Budweiser has a huge plant there... they didn't think it would help with beer sales..... Could you see the other beer companies advertisements?..... Picture two guys drinking Bud... one guy says to the other guy.... 'Hmmmmmmmm..... this tastes familiar"........ then they expose that Bud uses reclaimed water...... !?!?.. :hammer2:

[Some Kind Of Monster]

Hey Shueman
Your links are dead and I am very interested in viewing them. Can you please direct me to them?

[shueman]

Hey Shueman
Your links are dead and I am very interested in viewing them. Can you please direct me to them?
Just pulled this one:
Arizona Fish & Game (http://www.gf.state.az.us/h_f/edits/lake_levels.shtml)
Lots of good stuff at the the BOR as well:
Lower Colorado River Operations (http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/index.html)
I've been hearing a crazy rumor that the "enviromentalists" want to see Glenn Canyon go dang near dry to "repair the dam"......!!??

[Misogynist]

Just pulled this one:
Arizona Fish & Game (http://www.gf.state.az.us/h_f/edits/lake_levels.shtml)
Lots of good stuff at the the BOR as well:
Lower Colorado River Operations (http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/index.html)
I've been hearing a crazy rumor that the "enviromentalists" want to see Glenn Canyon go dang near dry to "repair the dam"......!!??
I haven't heard that..... but I remember in the mid 80's.... the penstocks were damaged from the massive outpouring of water... they had to close them and go back in and repair them.... the water had erroded huge areas and there was fear that it might undermine the footing of the dam... but that was repaired 20 years ago....... :jawdrop:

[Boatcop]

I've heard Havasu will remain "static" in level because of the need for Arizona...
Not quite 100% correct.
The only intake for the Metropolitan Water District, for water service to Southern California, is also on Lake Havasu, only a mile or so away from the intake for the Central Arizona Project. And the MWD has been there since the 1930s. The CAP intake and pumping plant was only completed in the early 1980s.
Lake Havasu is the main feed for water to California and Arizona. The other lakes exist merely to provide a back-up water source to keep Havasu at a level where MWD and CAP can pump out their allotment of water.
Everyone else, up stream of Havasu, could meet their allotments by pumping out of the river itself, just based on average water flows. Lakes or no lakes.
It's not so much that the water is actually being used. It's also alloted for future growth. In order for a community or city to grow, in our arid climate, there must be at least 100 years of water available for the projected growth area. Most communities base this 100 year supply on Colorado River water.
I remember when San Jacinto, Moreno Valley, Hemet, and such were nothing more than open "desert" with just a few houses, a couple of retirement trailer parks, and not much else. (Unless you consider the Riverside Raceway) Now they're filled with hundreds of thousands of people living, working, and using water.
If it wasn't for the projected availability of Colorado River Water, we would probably still be watching Grand Pre and Nascar races in what is now a shopping Mall.
How many of you know that the Salton Sea is a direct result of Southern Californias greed for Colorado Riiver water? Back in the early 1900s a series of canals were being built to bring water to San Diego. It almost succeeded, except for a major Rocky Mountain run-off (this was before any major dams were built on the river) basically caused the River to change course, and flow into the Southern California desert. It was months before the River could be dyked and put back into it's normal flow path.
From that failed effort, the Salton Sea was born. In the early 60s we used to go down there and swim (or should I say "float") and boat and stuff. The water was actually pretty clean then. Now it's pretty much just a cess pool being fed by farm run-off, and polluted effluent from Mexico.

[Racer277]

If it wasn't for the projected availability of Colorado River Water, we would probably still be watching Grand Pre and Nascar races in what is now a shopping Mall.
Those were the days. :cool: I didn't see Grand Prix, but did see Neckcar and Indy's there. Man that seemed like a long drive back then, I remember my dad stopping to refill the radiator with water on the way from the OC.
Too many people. We're losing good lakes and racetracks! :eek:

[C-2]

I don't get people calling Riverside and its surrounding communities desert.
Palm Springs is desert.
Victorville is desert.
Lancaster is desert.
Phoenix is desert.
Vegas is desert.
Riverside? Dry terrain yes, desert - no. Splain' this to me. :rollside:

[Waist Deep]

The thread I started has brought a new light as to what kind of trouble we are in as recreational users. Yes, I know it was selfish to ask about where " Our " water is going. From the posts and the Bureau of Reclamation, I can see that it is already gone from Lake Powell, in order to keep the lights on in Vegas and to water our sandy golf courses. I had no idea it was that bad up there, probably since I do not go there.
I do now, have a different way to look at things, as should alot of other people who should be as concerned as I am.
Thank You to all who donated and by looking at the reads, alot of people have a little more knowledge that they had before.

[Bow Tie Omega]

"CA will get its legal allotment, but no more, and have to deal with it."
Excuse me? According to the last agreement, CA will continue to get MORE than their legal allotment for years to come (10 years) I can provide documents to prove that. And you can bet when that time comes, CA will fight to maintain their over-allotment which is btw significantly over what other states get. Where does it go? Well, I've heard CA just filled a new lake anybody know it's name? How many acre-feet of water was that? By comparison, how many new lakes were filled in NV or AZ?
"But Arizona and Nevada will be paying for it. They will need more than their legal allotment of water"
Their legal allotment? Anyone know when "legal allotment" was originally decided? Times change for all states. Big time changes for AZ and NV as a percentage, yet legal allotment hasn't. My point is, CA historically has overused it's allotment, will continue to do so in the future even though they were alloted more in the first place. NV had very little share. So what's 10% more than zippo?
I don't favor LV growth or golf courses in the desert. Neither do I think CA should fill a new lake with their apparently, politically gauranteed excess...ESPECIALLY during a drought. Yet political powers dictate what happens and I think AZ and NV have less political power compared to CA. Seems so far, CA gets what CA wants.
In the end, Lake Powell and Lake Mead suffer for the historic excesses of the state of California, and the explosive growth in the southwest as a whole. So also our hobby and passion. The leadership in all states lacking the backbone and foresight to plan ahead. That lame ass "leadership" bending to short term money and lobbiest for development no matter the state instead of long term prosperity. Sure, population growth in all states adds to the misery. But as a percentage of water use, others SW states are dwarfed by the excess use of California.
Of course if you don't boat on Powell or Mead why care? They just happen to be the most amazing lakes in the United States...and yes I've boated many, many lakes and rivers across this country. But if you only boat polluted, small and law restricted California lakes then maybe you don't care about Powell or Mead. And yes I've boated CA lakes and rivers too. Elsinore, Puddingstone, Sacramento river to name a few. But if you've ever had the opportunity to experience the wonder of boating Powell or Mead, you'll know why I'm passionate about this topic.
You won't see this on CA lakes or rivers or Kentucky lakes or Tennessee or Maryland, or Ohio, or Washington or New Mexico or California...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain1.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain2.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain3.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain4.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Drain5.jpg
You got the freakin' picture?? As a CA resident, you may care less about Mead or Powell and justify your opinion local based politics or agricultrual concerns. In the end.... Who do you think really cares about your concerns?
jer
You mean seeing a 4-Runner Towing a boat, right? :) Sorry, could not resist. California has a vast resource of water called the Pacific Ocean. But the Enviormentalists some 20-30 years ago were not and still are not happy with the idea of placing desalinization plants on the beach fronts for fear of endangering the spotted owl...I mean the kangaroo rat....I mean the mountain lion....I mean the great white.....or is it the polar bear. All kidding aside, do you see where I am getting. Whats more, all of the land developers who have made millions and millions off of building homes in the desert own homes on these beaches and do not want these plants decreasing their property value or obstructing their views. To be honest, I see both sides of the coin, but boating aside, we are draining some beautiful recreation areas, national treasures so to speak. So, this is my idea....There are these huge lengths of beach, which are called Military Bases...North Island NAS, Camp Pendleton MCB, Point Mugu NAWS, Vandenburg AFB, well away from home owners and not privy to the regulations that the rest of us are as far as the Sierra Club is concerned. Build these plants on these bases, If they can build San Onofre off Basilone Road, why cant they build these plants on other bases. Obviously funding is an issue, but between Nevada, Arizona and California, I think we can find ways to fund these projects. And while we are at it, why are we giving Mexico a single drop? I say when they make a real effort in curbing drug trafficing and illegal immigration to this country, then we can talk about water rights...Until then, let them fend for themself. Just my two cents

[Waist Deep]

Well said " Bow Tie Omega". If you read my post a couple pages back, right here in our City of H.B. , the company offered to build it for free, just for a cut in the funds for delivering the water. Our City Council rejected the offer. But I guess they figure screw everyone in other communities who need water. We have plenty. That the wrong attitude. Thanks for the great pics and replies. Nothing wrong with being honest.

[stix818]

Boatcop just to expand a little on your statement, "Mexico gets a set amount of water. A US/Mexico Treaty says they get XXX acre feet of water per year. (An acre foot is the water it takes to cover and acre of land, one foot deep)"
I have a good friend who's dad works at Davis Dam (plant manager) and he said that Lake Mohave was made to make sure Mexico got their water. In the event of a more severe drought that we are currently in, Lake Mohave will be able to supply the ample amount of water to Mexico. He also mentioned that they will not drop Lake Mohave until Mead drops another 20ft (approximately). Just thought that was interesting because I asked why Mohave was still full.

[LVjetboy]

"How many of you know that the Salton Sea is a direct result of Southern Californias greed for Colorado Riiver water? Back in the early 1900s a series of canals were being built to bring water to San Diego. It almost succeeded, except for a major Rocky Mountain run-off (this was before any major dams were built on the river) basically caused the River to change course, and flow into the Southern California desert. It was months before the River could be dyked and put back into it's normal flow path."
And how many know the greed, power and influence CA still has in most recent river agreements?
Norton enforced? Ya right.
You think CA changed from then to now? Lessor states were strong-armed and agreed to a plan that continues to give CA excess water for the future. I'll look up a link to that recent "agreement" and post it. I'm not saying LV growth is good or even right. Or AZ growth. Or CA growth. Or watering a golf-course desert casino. Or a freakin CA desert lettuce bean farm. Or filling a new CA lake.
What I am saying is there's something wrong. And it's not going the right way or even considering the future. Two of the most incredible lakes in the United States are being sucked dry by idiot greedy money politics and some here say, "who cares?" They further claim, "the purpose of those lakes is excess reservoir capacity created for the sole purpose of being drained in times of drought."
What the hell?
So go ahead and drain the two most incredible lake in the US so you can keep your stagnent CA ponds and we (CA, NV, AZ) can all have out-of-control development, is that what you want as a passionate boater? Idiots. Or local boaters with no passion or vision. Like I said and tried to show with pictures, those lakes (some choose to just think of as huge water tanks) are THE most amazing lakes in the entire United States. Don't be too quick to agree with the greedy people in power who'ed rather suck them dry then change their ways just because you've never had the pleasure of boating Powell and Mead.
BTW, even if they do suck them dry...which would lead to a major economic castastrophy for all states not just NV and AZ, but also CA, I will move to were boating water is. I can do that. My comments are not because I have to boat these waters, job-wise or any otherwise. My comments are because Lake Powell and Mead happen to be the best boating water in the United States. And they are dying.
Someone commented the lower Powell goes the better the boating? Many launch ramps on Powell now closed. Marinas are being moved on both Powell and Mead...some face closure if the levels continue to drop. Water quality suffers. If you don't boat these lakes I'm sure you won't care. You'll never experience this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/NavajoThunder.jpg
And never even realize. Your loss.
jer

[C-2]

They further claim, "the purpose of those lakes is excess reservoir capacity created for the sole purpose of being drained in times of drought."
What the hell?
Uhhhhh - That IS the primary reason the dams were put up and the reservoirs formed - this is an undisputable fact.
Surely you don't think the reservoirs were built to enhance the landscape and provide recreational opportunities?
The lake you refer to in Cali is an emergency reservoir. Only fisherman can go on the lake under strict fuel standards, no swimming, water skiing or any body contact. If MWD had it's way - nobody would be on the lake period.
Quit squaking about Cali - without Cali and MWD, some of the dams would not have gone forward, at least not in their present form. IF Nevada and Arizona were in a position to do the same (70 years ago) they would have. Early bird get's the worm, which sometimes is an unfortunate fact of life, and is applicable in this situation.
I too think Mead and Powell disappearing before our eyes sucks - but I can live without boating; not without water.
;)

[Mandelon]

I appreciate your passion LVJetboy, I agree that the lakes are beautiful and offer unique experiences available nowwhere else. I agree that water is being used in ways perhaps it should not. I don't see the need for name calling.
But these "Lakes" are not natural, the are reservoirs that were created for water storage, and we are lucky to use them for recreation. We can only hope the rains and snow return to historic levels and that the drought cycle will soon reverse.
Desalination will occur, but it is still too expensive. But if the water levels drop more, it will have to happen. Government needs to get on board now and make plans before it is too late. :sleeping:
I am afraid the fifty million or so people living in the southwest would rather drink, bathe, water their plants and eat well than go boating.

[shueman]

I appreciate your passion LVJetboy, I agree that the lakes are beautiful and offer unique experiences available nowwhere else. I agree that water is being used in ways perhaps it should not. I don't see the need for name calling.
But these "Lakes" are not natural, the are reservoirs that were created for water storage, and we are lucky to use them for recreation. We can only hope the rains and snow return to historic levels and that the drought cycle will soon reverse.
Desalination will occur, but it is still too expensive. But if the water levels drop more, it will have to happen. Government needs to get on board now and make plans before it is too late. :sleeping:
I am afraid the fifty million or so people living in the southwest would rather drink, bathe, water their plants and eat well than go boating.
Well said...

[Mandelon]

I love you too. :D :rolleyes: :D

[572Daytona]

Actually according the Bureau of Reclamation website, http://www.usbr.gov/dataweb/html/bcphoover.html The pricinpal puroposes of the dam are first for river regulation, navigation and flood control. Water storage was a secondary puropse. For a lot of the Corps dam projects around here, recreation was one of the reasons the lakes were created, to bring jobs and $$$ into economically depressed areas. You should talk to JBB, he's got plenty of water in his lake :D
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59365

[C-2]

I stand corrected. :rolleyes:
Hoover tamed the river.

[LVjetboy]

"but I can live without boating; not without water."
Then you don't have my passion. Or maybe you're priority's are local growth and development or job security or loyalty to your birth state more important than boating clean water in paradise?
If so move to Florida.
I've boated across the US. I have no loyalty to any state including NV. I chose not live in a state without boating at it's best. I've boated Ceasers Crk, Indian and Buckeye Lake (Oh), Anna (VA), Cumberland (Ky), Dale Hollow (Tn), the Great Lakes, Moses, Union (WA), Elephant Butte, Columbia River (WA), Anderson Dam, Snake river (ID), Smellsimore and some other hole-in-the-ground (CA) and many many more. Just to name a few.
So yes, I know what I'm saying when I say...Lake Powell is THE best lake and paradise on water. If all the West Coast down river stuff dried up Lake Powell would still be the ultimate boating experience. And yes I've boated Mead, and Willow beach and Search Light and Lake Mohave and Laughlin and Havasu both north and south, and Parker Strip and Big River on and on. So I've experienced the river as well.
They don't come close to Mead and Powell. If you had a true passion for boating you wouldn't dismiss that as trivial subject to the powers that be.
"Desalination will occur, but it is still too expensive. But if the water levels drop more, it will have to happen. Government needs to get on board now and make plans before it is too late.."
Ya sure. The government needs to get on board. "Well said" as one of your apparent fans posted. Now back to reality. Do you really think government will "get on board?" My experience is no, not until it's too late. I don't know what government dream world you live in in CA, but in NV, the political people in power to make water decisions (like Pat Mulroy) are the same ones who promote growth and development. As in water use. The have $$$ profit in stake for promoting the very thing that will suck us dry. Now, you can believe your mr roger bs, but there's a big time problem with water use and distribution and it threatens the very nature and passion or our hobby. At least most of us except those who don't really have a boating passion.
"I am afraid the fifty million or so people living in the southwest would rather drink, bathe, water their plants and eat well than go boating"
Ok then water your plants...and accept the status quo, support the decisions of those in power. Then trade away this boating experience you don't even know or don't care about...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Powell1.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Powell2.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Powell3.jpg
I'm amazed at how more Europeans apprieciate Lake Powell than Americans. Anyone know why?
jer

[Racer277]

I'm amazed at how more Europeans apprieciate Lake Powell than Americans. Anyone know why?
jer
I've noticed the same at many national parks. The further you have to go, the more Europeans you run into and the fewer Americans. I feel bummed for the Americans who won't hike a few hours or days to see some beautiful landscapes, but there are always euro's there enjoying themselves.

[Mandelon]

"Do you really think government will "get on board?" My experience is no, not until it's too late."
You are right on that. Until it is a crisis, the politicians won't want to take the heat. No one wants to make the hard decisions and cause discomfort among the electorate.
And as far as having fans.....that's a funny one. I have never met Shueman.

[Misogynist]

I don't get people calling Riverside and its surrounding communities desert.
Palm Springs is desert.
Victorville is desert.
Lancaster is desert.
Phoenix is desert.
Vegas is desert.
Riverside? Dry terrain yes, desert - no. Splain' this to me. :rollside:
I'll 'splain it to you.... if you spend any time in the south east area of the US... it's a lot wetter and greener there than Riverside... when you compare it to places there... it is a desert... :jawdrop:

[C-2]

I'll 'splain it to you.... if you spend any time in the south east area of the US... it's a lot wetter and greener there than Riverside... when you compare it to places there... it is a desert... :jawdrop:
Like ice cream? :idea: :hammer2:

[C-2]

"but I can live without boating; not without water."
Then you don't have my passion. Or maybe you're priority's are local growth and development or job security or loyalty to your birth state more important than boating clean water in paradise?
If so move to Florida.
I've boated across the US. I have no loyalty to any state including NV. I chose not live in a state without boating at it's best. I've boated Ceasers Crk, Indian and Buckeye Lake (Oh), Anna (VA), Cumberland (Ky), Dale Hollow (Tn), the Great Lakes, Moses, Union (WA), Elephant Butte, Columbia River (WA), Anderson Dam, Snake river (ID), Smellsimore and some other hole-in-the-ground (CA) and many many more. Just to name a few.
So yes, I know what I'm saying when I say...Lake Powell is THE best lake and paradise on water. If all the West Coast down river stuff dried up Lake Powell would still be the ultimate boating experience. And yes I've boated Mead, and Willow beach and Search Light and Lake Mohave and Laughlin and Havasu both north and south, and Parker Strip and Big River on and on. So I've experienced the river as well.
They don't come close to Mead and Powell. If you had a true passion for boating you wouldn't dismiss that as trivial subject to the powers that be.
"Desalination will occur, but it is still too expensive. But if the water levels drop more, it will have to happen. Government needs to get on board now and make plans before it is too late.."
Ya sure. The government needs to get on board. "Well said" as one of your apparent fans posted. Now back to reality. Do you really think government will "get on board?" My experience is no, not until it's too late. I don't know what government dream world you live in in CA, but in NV, the political people in power to make water decisions (like Pat Mulroy) are the same ones who promote growth and development. As in water use. The have $$$ profit in stake for promoting the very thing that will suck us dry. Now, you can believe your mr roger bs, but there's a big time problem with water use and distribution and it threatens the very nature and passion or our hobby. At least most of us except those who don't really have a boating passion.
"I am afraid the fifty million or so people living in the southwest would rather drink, bathe, water their plants and eat well than go boating"
Ok then water your plants...and accept the status quo, support the decisions of those in power. Then trade away this boating experience you don't even know or don't care about...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Powell1.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Powell2.jpg
Or this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Powell3.jpg
I'm amazed at how more Europeans apprieciate Lake Powell than Americans. Anyone know why?
jer
It’s simple; what part of DROUGHT don’t you understand? Why not be pissed at mother nature for not packing in a good snow pack? Elephant Butte – is it also our fault that lake is almost a river again? Is that also some evil Cali conspiracy?
Have you ever taken a second and thought maybe if there was no drought, the lake levels would be...surprise, surprise - UP and we wouldn't be having this debate!
DROUGHT, dude, DROUGHT, get over it. If you’re so handy with a google search, look the term up. It might enlighten you.
ps
And no that's not "draft" as in beer. :hammer2:

[LVjetboy]

"what part of DROUGHT don’t you understand?"
I understand both climate supply and the man-made demand part...climate supply not changeable and often not predictable.
WHICH PART DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
For years now I've followed the politics of those in charge of demand. That means development, growth and so on in the southwest. Farms in the desert, replenishing the Salton Sea, out-of-control Las Vegas growth...etc. Just to mention a few. Guess what? Politicians advocated maximum growth and revenue $$ at the expense of controlled growth with sensible thoughts to the future of limited resources. In other words, continued expansion for short term $$ with little planning to future shortages or the possibility of a drought. Wonder why?
$$$$$
You get that?
Yes in that context, those in power claim, "We did our best but this is a drought after all. Bullshit on, "did our best." You buy into that spin and the mantra that drought justifies all? Sucker. Or you don't understand what's going on here.
Seems both California and Nevada politics gravitate to development and money over preserving resources. This happened long before those same politicians declaired failed policies and declining lake levels a result of a natural drought and something totally out of their control. Of course they also say, had nothing to do with their choices. Just an unfortunate drought. Or more likely, hard decisions about water use were above their political comfort level.
If you buy into their BS hype about no alternative, then you're a sucker.
Meanwhile, you quickly trade this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/PowellStorm.jpg
For this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Settle.jpg
Just because you've never experienced the former and settle for what you know of the later. C2, have you boated Elephant Butte? I have. I was stationed in ABQ.
I've experienced both.
jer

[shueman]

Interesting stuff at this DOI site...about the future of Water in the West...
WATER 2025 (http://www.doi.gov/water2025/)

[LVjetboy]

Interesting for the federal government position. In a water war that spans many states, the feds may be the only agency with the power to resolve. Yet according to this site...
"Water 2025 recognizes that states, tribes, and local governments should have a leading role in meeting these challenges, and that the DOI should focus its attention and resources on areas where scarce fed $’s provide the greatests benefits to the West."
Sounds good in bureaucratic propaganda speak that is. Or a cop out?
Suggesting they'll defer to the states because the states have sovereignty and they don't want to tread on that. Try to make everyone happy right? Yet state local governments have proven time and again they can't agree, or if agree, later will not support what they agreed to. Do the feds think Colorado river states will magically work out what's best for everyone and stick to it?
Yea right! Maybe in Mr. Rogers neighborhood...not in this reality.
jer

[LVjetboy]

Trade this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/SunGlasses.jpg
...for more development, out-of-control growth, and more excuses by those in control about why the status quo is right for your future.
jer

[LVjetboy]

After all, those CA mudhole lakes infested with algae and over-restricted with speed limit buoys and local cops, like smellsomore...why named that? Been there done that. YES, I've been there and done that on more than one CA lake...as well as many other lakes across this nation. That's why I think Powell's the ultimate boater Lake.
Meanwhile, the best boater playground gets sucked dry by those in power who haven't experienced and do not comprehend the LOSS? !!
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/SavePowell.jpg
jer

[LVjetboy]

"But these "Lakes" are not natural, the are reservoirs that were created for water storage, and we are lucky to use them for recreation. We can only hope the rains and snow return to historic levels and that the drought cycle will soon reverse."
Oh ya and since they're man made, that's automatically bad. Excuse me? We are sooo lucky to have these "reservoirs" and environmentalist are sooo right to want to drain them. Nature rules after all. And we can only hope right?? You can bet those who want to drain all reservoirs are doing more than sitting back and saying, "we can only hope" Lame.
The former chub fish are waaay better than the later trout right? Which would you rather fish for? BTW, a drain Lake Powell activist recently tried to re-name Lake Powell to Glen Canyon Reservoir...you want to guess why?
Freakin' idiots!
Or let's just forget this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/SavePowell2.jpg
Hoping everyone else's concerns don't drain our misguided and thoughtless passion. Let's all just cave to their wishes, drain Lake Powell and take up river rafting what do you think? Lucky us after all. Wus!
jer

[LVjetboy]

How many California lakes have water so clean you can drink it?
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/CleanWater.jpg
The CA lakes I've boated you wonder if you really want to put your boat in let alone drink the water.
How many Washington lakes have coves so private you can sunbath nude?
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/PrivateCove.jpg
Sorry, I won't post the nude pics. Washington lakes I've boated have homes bordering the lake with telescopes in their living rooms viewing everything on the lake. No privacy. No natural views.
How many Oregon lakes have stone caves reflecting water ripples as a natural light show? Ever changing with sun angle and water.
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/CaveReflection.jpg
None.
How many Arizona lakes have a freakin' 100 foot tall rock sticking out of their lake?
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/LoneRock.jpg
Or natural stone arches or window rocks with overhead stone roofs or any of the other natural beauty of Lake Powell. None.
How many California lakes have a mile of natural sand beaches not man made, beaches you can light a campfire and cook on...enjoy nature without idiots in a RV next to you?
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/SandyBeach.jpg
None.
So I'm thinking why would anyone think or say, Lake Powell's (or Mead) just man made reservoirs, no better than big water storage tanks, only purpose to serve more expansion and developers wishes and more golf courses in the desert and more houses with lawns to water and local government power struggle?
That person either doesn't understand the value of these resources, isn't a truly passionate boater, or benefits from a short-sighted industry (no matter the state, builders for example?) who favor little control on water use in exchange for profit and no restrictions on the draining of Lake Powell and Mead.
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/LoneRock2.jpg
Short sighted idiots.
jer

[Squirtin Thunder]

Jer,
In this pic I see no-one!!!! What would happen if ...........????? The boat looks good in the pics. Powel is very nice. I have never been but plan to very soon.
Jim

[LVjetboy]

Better go soon. Before those who haven't experienced and don't value, drain for gain.
:frown: :frown: :frown:
jer

[Waist Deep]

I'll have to say that after starting this thread, I have learned alot about a resource that we need to protect. All along, while this has been going on, I've been watering my grass daily, without a concern until my 9 year old asked me " Dad, if you're so concerned about water, why do you waste so much?"
For that, I did not have an answer, I still water the same, but I'll tell you what, once I get back home, I will conserve all I can. Granted, I cannot put in a rock yard, but I can do my part. I hope everyone else reading this will do the same as well.

[C-2]

Lvjetboy
:sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:
You’ve got great photos. But beyond them, you’re not making a whole lotta sense.
Is it Cali? Is it AZ? Is it the politicians? Is it the RE Developers? Is it the citizens of LV/Henderson? Is it me?
I mean come on, it's a bit of each of the above. But mainly, it's a lack of rain and snow.
I know its hard to convey true meaning over a message board only, but geez, taking dig after dig at other states and other boaters? Way to rally the troops behind you. :hammer2:

[C-2]

And to answer your question about EB. Here is a photo from July 2002. The water was down down 95 feet at that time, dropped even further.
No conspiracy, just no snow or rain.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1132butte2.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1132butte1.jpg

[Waist Deep]

I'll have to agree with LVJETBOY on these issues. Granted, 've had not enough snow or rain, but do you see anyone controlling construction in the desert until we do get back to normal? No, this will only get worse before it gets better. You mean to tell me the politicians can't see that we're digging a hole we cant get out of. This is like taking money out of the bank weekly without putting in any deposits.
This is not mother natures fault. We have the capability to control growth until things get back to normal.
As for how bad CA lakes are. Can you say Elsinore?

[LVjetboy]

"You’ve got great photos. But beyond them, you’re not making a whole lotta sense.
Those photos only hint at the beauty of this lake...it's beyond words or pictures. And the best shots I don't have because my battery was dead (last trip) or I didn't have the camera at the time (trip before). I'm no professional photographer, much rather enjoy boating than take time to shoot pictures. But I think some here and many Americans don't even understand the beauty and value of this lake. It's out-of-the-way, no major cities nearby and seems to cater to overseas tourists instead of state side. Only by luck did I happen to visit.
"Is it Cali? Is it AZ? Is it the politicians? Is it the RE Developers? Is it the citizens of LV/Henderson? Is it me?
It's not anyone alone. It's SW state politicians and leadership all together. Unfortunately, those in charge are making the wrong choices based on money, furthering their self interests and not planning ahead. Sound familiar? Sure, lack of rain and snow highlight their poor choices and foresight in time of drought, but eventually their spineless decisions would lead to overextended resources, no matter drought or normal rain fall.
I remember Pat Mulroy (our resident water guru) general manager (http://www.snwa.com/html/about_exec_mulroy.html) of the Las Vegas Valley Water District trumpeting her involvement in an agreement with CA in which she claimed CA would cut their overuse over 10 years, and LV had plenty of water to expand at the current rate until 2007. Continued drought, push came to shove, CA did not cut overuse and LV continued to grow.
The feds stepped in.
At the time of initial agreement, I'm thinking, you idiots, what if rainfall isn't average? And why let CA or any other state continue to overdraw their allotment? The politics of money. They were banking on good rainfall but the eventual consequence of their poor decisions (those re-negotiating the Colorado River Compact) are water shortage...sooner or later...drought or no drought.
Yes, NV leadership is just as responsible for poor decisions as is CA leadership. But consider NV was allocated way less than CA in 1922, when LV was a stage coach stop. And the reality of LV growth (many of those people coming from CA btw) is not even reflected in that old water accord that alloted all of NV just 300,000 acre feet.
"I know it's hard to convey true meaning over a message board only, but geez, taking dig after dig at other states and other boaters? Way to rally the troops behind you."
No doubt I have limited talent for rallying the troops. Other states...who cares? I was in the military for 17 years and moved from state to state so I have no allegence to ANY state including NV. What I do care about is our nations lakes natural or man-made. I'm a passionate boater and will be to the day I die. I can guarantee you I know more about this subject than I've posted on this message board. And it's an objective opinion, not one based on the state I happen to live in now. I've boated lakes and rivers across this nation and none compare to Mead and Powell for clean water, privacy and shear majestic scenery. That includes worthy lakes like Cumberland, Anna and Dale Hollow...to mention a few. I was born and raised in Washington not Nevada, but who cares? I've boated WA, ID, CA, NV, MD, OH, TN, KY, FL, AL, UT, NM, VA...to name a few...how many have you?
Like you say, it's hard to convey meaning on a board, the best I can do is post pictures and hope others who haven't experienced will maybe see the value in not draining this tree hugger acclaimed glorified storage tank. Until then I'll post pictures...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Tranquility.jpg
jer

[shueman]

As my 15yr old son explained to me the other night, the world's water supply is finite. It may exist in different forms, in different locations ,but there is no more, nor less, than 1000's of years ago. Our weather cycle will change, and our reserves will return. We all need to do our best to conserve, to change our lifestyles to address this growing concern.
Thanks for the pix/vista views of Powell. It is one of the most beautiful inland water locales in the world. Keep 'em coming...!!!

[C-2]

;)
Gotcha.
That post certainly clarified your position.
I too have followed water right issues ever since I had the opportunity to sit thru a deposition of Floyd Dominy several years back. His comments between the record were just fascinating. I think he's still listed in the phonebook in VA.

[LVjetboy]

"the world's water supply is finite."
Yep, that and other limited resources. It's not about sqft land space, so many people for each sqft of land...but primarily limited resources. And we boaters care about water of course.
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/HorseShoe.jpg
jer

[LVjetboy]

Floyd Dominy (http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=5980)
"can only say that I don’t think the so-called environmentalists of today are necessarily right. I’m an environmentalist. I’m a different kind of environmentalist. I believe that nature can be improved upon. I do it right here in Virginia. I built a dam on my little farm in Fairfax 50 years ago. There was no fish there, nothing, and now it’s the finest little fishing hole for that neighborhood. When I bought this farm up here, it didn’t have any fish on it, it had no water supply at all. I built nine ponds, and four of them are wonderful fishing holes. And they’re used by the ducks and the Canadian geese and, sure, I’ve changed the environment. I think I’ve improved on it."
jer

[LVjetboy]

http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/MarinaView.jpg

[LVjetboy]

Lake Powell, just another private cove...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/BestThings.jpg
Can you imagine the sound reflection off those rock walls? This taken in 2001, before weather conditions and mismanaged water resources drained the lake to record lows. Now this cove is dry. Consider this. The lower Powell goes down, the faster it drops. Same for what some consider that other storage tank named Lake Mead. Once both gone...what are you gonna drain???
Do you buy into the spin of those in power saying, "all's well, let's not regulate growth (because THAT would affect their budget) and hope for the best? They claim conservation is the key. After all they say, "stopping" growth (their spin on growth CONTROL) will affect your job and income, you wouldn't want that right?" What better way to motive the masses and protect their revenue source...uncontrolled growth? Meanwhile their decisions allow continued overuse and I'm thinking that mentality plays over and over in all SW states not just Nevada. Their mantra...conservation...seems to justify their position, deflecting near term criticism, but in the end just masks their true motives and delays the inevitable.
New thinking and action needs to happen NOW! Or we will loose these precious resources that some with more backbone and vision than Pat Mulroy sacrificed their lives to create.
jer

[shueman]

What's your solution...??

[LVjetboy]

I think the solution is straight forward, but incredibly difficult to do because of politics.
Weather can't be controlled...drought or no...supply is somewhat unpredictable. A solution has to account for drought. Something our local politicians haven't done and probably yours too.
What can be controlled is demand. For example, this just published in the Las Vegas Review Journal (Saturday, October 09, 2004)...
"Boundary markers signal the start of construction of the first golf course to be built at Coyote Springs, a new master-planned community for which Pardee Homes has signed on to be the master residential developer. The 42,000-acre parcel north of Las Vegas is owned by Coyote Springs Investment, and is the largest privately held property approved for development in Southern Nevada. The next largest is Summerlin, a 22,500-acre community by The Howard Hughes Corp.
Klif Andrews, vice president of community development for Pardee, said the company plans to bring other home builders into the project to help develop the 20,000 acres earmarked for residential use. "We're not going to go out and build a bunch of houses in the desert," he said. "We see this as an opportunity to build homes in an attractive and well-appointed golf course environment, yet still offer an excellent value."
The master plan encompasses a series of Jack Nicklaus Signature golf courses, a golf school, vacation villas, custom lots, single-family and multifamily residences, as well as commercial and retail properties."
So does anyone understand water consumption of 70,000 new homes and more golf courses IN A FREAK'IN DESERT?? Notice this land was "approved for development" by local planners. Those in charge of our water's future.
I read the paper every day. I read articles online as well. I pay attention to water issues. Believe me, the above article's a common thread, there's a huge resource management problem and it's not just because of a drought. It's in your face no matter the drought. And it's happening in all SW states.
Water conservation will not cure this problem in fact will only delay the inevitable and in the end give a false sense of security and justification of the poor decisions of those in power.
The solution is controlling demand. That means tough decisions by those in power, choices that go against big money real estate development and business. Why doesn't that happen? Duh.
1) We need controlled growth. We don't get it.
Las Vegas is a poster city for continued uncontrolled growth as are other SW cities. That means local politicians and city officials encourage maximum growth by the policies they promote. They justify those policies by saying we have plenty of water for the future (not true), then label growth control supporters as idiots not understanding economics who must be educated to see the light. Then they claim growth control is really "no growth" to further distort reality in their favor. What they don't mention is their motivation for decisions based on power and influence of developers and big money...not the reality of limited resources.
2) "We" need other sources of fresh water like desalination plants. We don't get those either.
Why? They cost money. And CA doesn't want to spend that money. Can you blaim them? Of course not with all the Enron debt they (and NV) got soaked for. Especially considering CA is still allowed to overdraw their river allotment by a significant amount for years to come. Drain Lake Powell, it's only a storage tank after all.
And why not fill a new lake in CA while we're at it? Yes Mandelon, that's the Diamond Valley Lake. How many Kalifornians know this?
"This reservoir is larger than Lake Havasu and took 4 years to fill. This reservoir will hold as much water as combining Castaic Lake, Lake Mathews, Pyramid Lake, Lake Perris and Lake Skinner into one."
You think maybe that lake oh excuse me reservoir didn't take water out of Powell during this drought to fill? Can you run your i/o on Diamond Valley Lake? I didn't think so. Have you run Lake Powell Mandelon and experienced this...?
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/DrainPowell.jpg
I didn't think so...and you'd trade that for a lame-ass lake you can't even run your boat on? Earth quake protection?? Jeez.
Or for that matter let's top off the Salton Sea too never mind that lake was mistake in the first place, stinks bad can't drink the water unlike Powell. Salt water? Sucks as a boating lake and well I'd never run salt, was a freakin mistake in the first place. Yet environmentalist want to fill that and drain Lake Powell? WTF??
3) We need common sense in government not those bending to short term gain and well-financed lobbyist, environmental, development or other. Backbone for those in charge...people to stand up for what's right. Write and call your local politicians. Write your local paper. Vote out those who don't support your views on Colorado river preservation.
Or just follow those in charge until our best boating waters are gone forever...
jer

[shueman]

Diamond Valley Lake (http://www.dvlake.com/index.html)
Havasu is much larger....

[Rexone]

Diamond Valley Lake (http://www.dvlake.com/index.html)
Havasu is much larger....
Larger in area but less acre feet of storage.
"Water began pouring into the reservoir in November 1999 and the lake was filled by early 2002. Diamond Valley Lake holds 800,000 acre-feet, or 260 billion gallons of water. By comparison, Lake Havasu, on the Colorado River, holds just 648,000 acre-feet or 201 billion gallons."
It's also hooked up to the CA state water system and much of the water to fill it came from Norcal which doesn't affect the Colorado system water levels. Not that that fact lessens the validity of Jer's argument on the overuse (or over development) that's affecting the Co. River system. This is one area I happen to agree with Jer on. Over development is out of control and rampant throughout the southwest. Seems money and greed overshadow common sense amongst developers and more importantly those in government allowing the near uncontrolled growth.

[shueman]

Thnks Rex...

[mmered8299]

I not too sure that curbing growth here in Vegas is a solution to our water woes. That would really screw up the economy out here. There is water in Nevada and other States, we just have to go get it. Just like Molhalland (sp?) did for LA back in the day. LA used to be a desert too. But the SNWA say that would be too difficult and expensive. I say BS. If Molhalland thought that, there would be no LA. So whats the plan if we run out of water? There is no plan. SNWA says, “they will just play it by ear.” It would take 7years to build a pipeline to Northern Nevada where there is an abundant of underground water. I would think SNWA would start on such a project now. But they have done nothing. Were DOOMED!

[LVjetboy]

"It's also hooked up to the CA state water system and much of the water to fill it came from Norcal which doesn't affect the Colorado system water levels."
Can you back that up? How much came from Norcal compared to the Colorado River? Just curious.
"I not too sure that curbing growth here in Vegas is a solution to our water woes. That would really screw up the economy out here."
Oh really. Well then what do you think the solution is that won't affect anything else? Everyone has a spin on the outcome. Do you care about developer profits or limited resources like Powell and Mead? Are you concerned about your job? Excuse me, I got a job and lived in LV since before 1982 when there wasn't out of control growth.
Apparently, I can earn income without the expansion they say is necessary. I don't need the economics trumpeted as essential by current politicians to live here or anywhere. My priorities are not supporting uncontrolled growth or real estate developer profit but rather lake resources and boating. Get it? Their priorities not the same.
Those in power would like you to believe their approach is essential to your economic survival. They pitch the maximum growth mantra as the only way you can feed your family. Yet the truth is, that path leads to limited resources running out. In this case water. In other cases? Are you gonna buy into that BS?
jer

[mmered8299]

You can't control growth! Unless your like Japan. I think they limit the amount of kids you have. The resources are there, just nobody has the balls to go get it like Mr. Mollholland did. When the lakes go dry here in a couple of years, SNWA is going to say, "we told you so." Nevadans are conserving, but nobody else is. Then the government will step in and build a pipeline. But by then it will be too late. The economy will really be ****ed by then

[mmered8299]

Besides, with all this growth out here in Vegas were still using less then our allotment of water.

[Waist Deep]

I firmly believe that everyones allotment of water will have to be decreased here soon, as Lake Powell just can't deliver whats neeed. The real problem is conservation. Noone here in California conserves the way they're supposed to because living here at the coast, noone knows of any water shortage. True, Las Vegas has implemented conservation to save their City, but I agree, all others must do the same.

[Rexone]

"It's also hooked up to the CA state water system and much of the water to fill it came from Norcal which doesn't affect the Colorado system water levels."
Can you back that up? How much came from Norcal compared to the Colorado River? Just curious.
jer
Not with number which I sense is what you're looking for. But we (the SCMA board of directors) went on an extensive tour of DVL 2 years ago and they told us the water came from all sources and had maps of the huge pipelines installed hooked into the entire system that links up all the major so. cal. lakes that supply water to MWD including Matthews, DVL, Lake Silverwood, Lake Castaic and I'm sure others as well. Since the Norcal water comes in through the Castaic corridor (aqueduct from the Delta). I'm guessing they took their max allotment from the Colorado to contribute and also Delta water. I'm sure somewhere in the MWD they have the numbers on how much from where but I don't have them nor access to. I'm sure someone within the MWD could furnish that info if they wanted to.
In the bigger long term picture though it is a finite supply of water this earth has to utilize at any given moment. So I don't agree with...
You can't control growth! Unless your like Japan. I think they limit the amount of kids you have. The resources are there...
At some point you "must" control growth "or you must" accept lesser amounts of water per capita. It is a very simple mathematical concept. "If" additional resources exist yes you can exploit them short term but still you will reach a point with unchecked growth where there is simply not enough water on the earth to support the demands you place on it. Large scale desalination would be a big step but I don't see any movement in that direction (don't even know if it's feasible on a large scale).
Would it damage the economy to curb growth in Vegas (just as an example)? Sure it would. But the economy is what man makes it and is secondary to mother nature and natural resource availability. If man exploits or mismanages water beyond its limits the economy in that region will crash much like an overdrawn bank account. Mother nature really doesn't give a shit about the economy of Vegas or anywhere else. Economy is a man made phenomenon with entirely too much importance placed on it at the expense of what is the right thing to do in many cases.
Not much different than a person's bank account on a limited income. You can only buy so much shit and you run outta money (unless your the government of course in which case you just fire up another printing press).

[Rexone]

I firmly believe that everyones allotment of water will have to be decreased here soon, as Lake Powell just can't deliver whats neeed. The real problem is conservation. Noone here in California conserves the way they're supposed to because living here at the coast, noone knows of any water shortage. True, Las Vegas has implemented conservation to save their City, but I agree, all others must do the same.
I'm not a water expert by any stretch but I've read that agriculture in so cal. (namely the Imperial Valley) is allotted about 80% of the Co. river water Ca takes and in turn wastes a large portion of it due to antiquated and inefficient irrigation methods and unlined canals. Not to mention they pay a fraction of what commercial and residential users do so how much incentive is there to conserve any?
So my question would be why do the powers in charge of our water not crack down on conservation in this area where the vast majority of the water is actually wasted instead of focusing on how may bricks you got in your toilet tank? Seems like a common sense thing to me. (My guess is the answer will somehow involve money just like most things that are f'ed up regarding government).

[mmered8299]

I believe those canals you are talking about are in the process of being lined to help in the loss.

[Mardonzi]

FYI... Glen Canyon Dam (Lake Powell) reduced it's outflow on Sept 7 to its required minimums. This link might prove to be interesting for some... Oh,, and LV,, love the pics,, next time you get up this way, look us up.
http://www.usbr.gov/uc/water/crsp/cs/gcd.html

[Waist Deep]

Nice attachment Mardonzi. Alot can be learned from viewing these sites and what kind of situation we are really in.

[Mandelon]

I'm not a water expert by any stretch but I've read that agriculture in so cal. (namely the Imperial Valley) is allotted about 80% of the Co. river water Ca takes and in turn wastes a large portion of it due to antiquated and inefficient irrigation methods and unlined canals. Not to mention they pay a fraction of what commercial and residential users do so how much incentive is there to conserve any?
So my question would be why do the powers in charge of our water not crack down on conservation in this area where the vast majority of the water is actually wasted instead of focusing on how may bricks you got in your toilet tank? Seems like a common sense thing to me. (My guess is the answer will somehow involve money just like most things that are f'ed up regarding government).
If they raise the price of water to the farmers we will be looking at $4.00 heads of lettuce.....they wont' be able to compete against imported food from latin America and there will farms foing out of business left and right......then the Latin American exporters will put the pinch to us just like OPEC does with oil.....there is no simple answer.
How do you curb growth in Vegas? Stop zoning residential land, the prices go up and people move out.......causing growth somewhere else. The whole problem is "fluid" (get it, like water :notam: ) and there is no simple answer.
When the water gets short enough and the price gets high enough desalination will be the answer. It won't be cheap, but it will work.
I don't know about LA, but in SD we are always conserving. We use less water now than we did 15 years ago despite a 30% increase in population. Recycled water is used for irrigation, and we all have low flow faucets, showers and toilets.

[LVjetboy]

"You can't control growth! Unless your like Japan."
A myth encouraged by those who profit from growth. At least when it comes to cities with out of control growth like LV. They say, "how do these "anti-growth activists" (their label for those who favor controlled growth) plan to "stop" (their label again) growth? With guard shacks on I-15 enforcing border crossing quotas?" Their spin meant to discredit growth control advocates as no better than neo-nazis with extreme birth quotas to follow.
Guess again. You actually can CONTROL growth. It's called integrety in leadership and foresight...and the balls to make it happen. Something few government officials seem to have no matter the state. Instead of catering to developers...special interests, etc and their well-paid lobbiest and profit margins, how about thinking to the future of those already living here and planning ahead for periods of drought?
Now there's a novel concept.
You CAN control growth by economics: If you have a limited resource you regulate demand by increasing the value of that resource. In other words, higher water connection fees, higher land prices, higher building costs, and yes...smaller developer profits among other things. Oh darn. What does this all mean? Well for one thing growth pays for itself. For another, prices naturally regulate the rate of growth. That's how you control growth. Finally,,,those in power will fight you.
In other words, if it's more expensive, less people will make the choice to move here or there. That's a tough decision too I'm not saying easy. Especially for those in charge. But not as tough as running out of water. Those in charge of the ultimate resource decisions have a mandate to protect our future but also have high paid lobbiest and big time profit margins fighting for the bottom line... not what's best for the future. Do you doubt that??
Make no mistake, the right choices are painful near-term, but long-term?
So...no border guards. No quota's on birth rates. No neo-nazis supreme race. No extreme genocide conspiracy. Just simple economics of a limited supply and an uncontrolled growth demand.
I'm sure you've heard, "What about the poor who can't afford? We need to keep housing affordable so they can have the American dream too." When you read or hear this, consider the source. Usually comes from a person associated with a group like the local Home Builders Association. Then consider their true motive...profit margin from maximum growth and lowest developement costs. Do you think a group like that's objective or realistically considers a drought scenario? Do they advocate higher water connection fees? Excuse me?
Believe me they actively lobby both local, state and federal government officials for laws to benefit their bottom line not reduce it. And laws that don't have our future at heart. Though they may claim it.
Does anyone know what federal law now mandates BLM (Bureau of Land Management) to sell a given amount of land each year to developers here in Nevada? And the reason that law pushed thru the federal government? Talk about a law specifically writen to encourage future unrestricted growth in Las Vegas!!
Master plan? Forget about it. Developers ram thru higher density rezoning on a regular bases depending on their profit margin...is your city different?
By contrast I say, what about running out of water? Shouldn't those in power protect our most limited resources against special interest profit motives and plan to the future instead of catering to short term developers profits? Idiots!
So yes, you can control growth. Not by radical birth limits. Not by guard shacks on I-15 with quotas and attack dogs. Not by mandatory family planning. But by economics, foresight and government officials with understanding of limited resources, and the integrity and balls to back it up. Future planning, laws and limited tax money spent on the true threat to our limited resources, not the concerns of special interest profits.
jer

[LVjetboy]

"I'm guessing they took their max allotment from the Colorado to contribute and also Delta water."
Why? Because they supported DVL filling as well as other demands? Do you think that lead to accelerated draining of Powell and Mead? As well as out-of-control LV growth and MANY other factors? I've focused on growth so far, which I think is the bottom line...no matter the state.
"At some point you "must" control growth "or you must" accept lesser amounts of water per capita. It is a very simple mathematical concept. "If" additional resources exist yes you can exploit them short term but still you will reach a point with unchecked growth where there is simply not enough water on the earth to support the demands you place on it. Large scale desalination would be a big step but I don't see any movement in that direction (don't even know if it's feasible on a large scale).
Would it damage the economy to curb growth in Vegas (just as an example)? Sure it would. But the economy is what man makes it and is secondary to mother nature and natural resource availability. If man exploits or mismanages water beyond its limits the economy in that region will crash much like an overdrawn bank account. Mother nature really doesn't give a shit about the economy of Vegas or anywhere else. Economy is a man made phenomenon with entirely too much importance placed on it at the expense of what is the right thing to do in many cases.
Not much different than a person's bank account on a limited income. You can only buy so much shit and you run outta money (unless your the government of course in which case you just fire up another printing press)."
Yes. I agree.
But less water per capita or conservation? Only a salve for the symptom, not a cure for the condition. Water's renewable and depends on unpredictable weather, supply and demand...conservation only delays the hard truth. The conservation matra promoted by those in power such as our local SNWA is a short-term feel good policy to what will later be a crises spawned by their underlying and often hidden pro-growth policies. They destort conservation numbers to justify further growth. They trumpet, "by conservation, we've saved 20% We have enough water to continue our current rate of growth to 2007." What they don't mention is by their pro-growth policies, they've caused a net drain of 40%. Do the math.
What they don't mention is their growth potential projection doesn't account for drought...just profits and special interests.
Water conservation is good. But using conservation to justify future uncontrolled growth in a desert? No matter the city, state, climate or business? Bad. Well-publicized conserns by authorites about water conservation may sound good to deflect attention from their pro-groth policies, but in the end, disaster. Just wait until our "reservoirs" drain to nothing then you'll see.
jer

[LVjetboy]

"FYI... Glen Canyon Dam (Lake Powell) reduced it's outflow on Sept 7 to its required minimums
Thanks for the link. After reading seems that link focused on supply which of course is not changeable, as opposed to demand, which is.
jer

[LVjetboy]

"How do you curb growth in Vegas? Stop zoning residential land, the prices go up and people move out.......causing growth somewhere else."
Yep. Like maybe in a less-challenged water region? Supply and demand.
"The whole problem is "fluid" (get it, like water) and there is no simple answer."
Yep. No simple answer. ALTHOUGH THERE ARE answers better than the ones promoted by those in power so far. No matter your state.
jer

[LVjetboy]

Or let's just drain this glorified water tank...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/FishEyeNet.jpg
...to promote more developer profit and keep houses affordable to everyone? After all, maybe those in power don't understand drought and focus instead on business profit or the price of desert-grown lettuce? I'd pay 4$ for lettuce to keep Lake Powell...that is, if idiots in power made that my only choice.
As for restoring the Salton Sea?
"The Salton Sea was formed between 1905 and 1907 when the Colorado River burst through poorly built irrigation controls south of Yuma, Arizona. Bird watching is very good at the park, as it is all over the Salton Sea."
Salton Sea (http://www.desertusa.com/salton/salton.html)
Oh yes, let's go and boat there. More salt's all the better right? Who cares about corrosion.
Or because those darn Tilapia perch-like fish are so freakin delicious, you just gotta have them right? I'm sorry, didn't mean to overlook you avid bird watchers.
Now BIRD WATCHING oh ya! That's a VALID REASON TO DRAIN A FRESH WATER PARADISE LAKE to refill a SESSPOOL SALT CORROSION MISTAKE OF A LAKE like the Salton Sea. What do you think? Oh yes. Let's all go boating on a lake more corrosive than the Pacific Ocean but with a fraction of the beaches. You can bird watch after all?
If you can overcome the stink that is.
Or you can boat for a limited time only, on the reported "water storage tank" above with water so pure and clean you can drink it, local wildlife including beaver and WAY better views...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/CoveLight.jpg
OR,,, support the tree huger special interests from CA who'd rather drain that CO crystal lake water to replace their mistake of a salt lake shit hole.
jer

[LVjetboy]

http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Sunset.jpg
Picture from Wahweap Marina. Weather there's awesome...clear blue, rainbows, thunderstorms, and everything in between. For some reason, more variety than in Las Vegas or other parts of the country.
jer

[LVjetboy]

http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/View.jpg
Just another day at the lake, oops I mean water storage tank.
jer

[Waist Deep]

Since they say the water is down 36' this year, would that equate to the water being up 36' higher on the rocks? It kinda looks as though if that was the case, the water would be almost to the road.
BTW, Get any rain?

[Boatcop]

Droughts come and droughts go. We just happen to be in that period of drought. It was a scant 20 years ago, (a nano-second in terms of geological and atmospheric time), that the Colorado River System had more water than it could handle. All the dams were in danger of breeching, and in 4 months we poured enough water into the Gulf of California to fill the entire system at least 3 times over.
The current drought WILL end. I've heard the word "normal", when refering to rain and snowfall, several times. Well, I've got news for everyone. This is normal.
I remember in the early '60s a flood condition that tore through Northern California. I remember going to McDermitt (sp) State Park and seeing the waterline 20 feet up on the Redwoods and Sequoyas, and the Rangers showing pictures of the entire park looking like a Lake with these big-a$$ trees sticking out of them..
15 years later, people were showering in a trash can and not flushing their toilets. 10 years after that, more floods.
All we have to do is wait, and we'll again have more than enough water for everyone. That's the main reason the Colorado River was dammed, and the sole reason for the dam at Glen Canyon and Lake Powell. Water storage during drought periods.
Powell may be low. But all that proves is that it's doing what it was designed to do. Provide additional water storage and supply during droughts.
If Glen Canyon Dam was never built, with all other current factors being the same, we would be in a world of sheeite. But because of it, we're not.
Just give it a little time. They'll be full sooner than you can imagine.

[LVjetboy]

"All we have to do is wait, and we'll again have more than enough water for everyone."
I wish that was true, but I'm thinking maybe not. Sure weather goes in cycles. But demand continues to climb. Sure the dams are serving their purpose, but are they also unintentionally encouraging over-development and less and less margin of safety reserve? What if we rely on that cushion to justify further uncontrolled growth in desert climates until it there's no more reserve left? Have we already reached that point?
Do you really have faith those in power will make the right choices in time to prevent a big time water shortage?
I don't know what state you live in but here in Nevada the answer is NO! Just today I read in the RJ another committee's being formed in Carson City to "study" the problem. I've lived here long enough to see committee and study after study funded with no results and no hard decisions or action taken. Why? Because those hard (and right for the future) decisions about water are the ones that affect revenue, profits and are in conflict with special interest groups. So politicians and law makers do the easy thing, form another committee, delay action, look for ways to not make the hard choices or go against what the builders or businesses want.
Funny how the committees formed always include advocates for unrestricted growth, representatives of the status quo, and the conclusions drawn always defer to economic issues not the train wreck waiting to happen.
Meanwhile, water authorities like Pat Mulroy pretent they're doing the right thing by financing water conservation ads to teach us ignorant citizens the truth and deflect criticism of their lack of back bone and unrestricted growth policies. Ads claiming it's not about growth but it's all about conservation. Oh ya, that and the drought?
Do you really buy into that?
One of our braver congressional leaders proposed a growth control measure several years ago...got shot down. Why? Because developers and builders didn't want it...not because it wasn't the smart thing to do.
Are the politics any different in CA or AZ? Somehow I doubt it.
jer

[76biesmeyer]

From what I understand most of the builders in the Vegas area are going to keep on building till there is Know more land or water than just move on!! They Know whats going on!!! GREED GREED GREED

[Waist Deep]

LVJet, can you tell me that the water, being down 36' this year, would have been at the road in your earlier thread. I have a hard time showing my 9 year old how important it is to conserve both water and power. But with your pics, this is something that has a real effect on her since she loves the river.
Thanks

[Mandelon]

Builders build. Its what they do. Ya can't blame them for it. Its not like they are locusts who blow into town and put up nice houses for no reason. Blame the zoning or the municipality for making it builder friendly. They come because it is profitable, because there is good demand for housing and the governmental regulations makes it possible.
Many areas make it impossible to build affordably and the existing housing stock is crazy expensive, like say Santa Barbara. They have water rationing, and I believe they desalinate. There is no growth, just remodeling of existing homes. There is no affordable housing either. I think Portland dezoned a lot of land around its core and made new homes impractical. Prices again jumped up. Great for those who have houses, but what do first timers and lower income people do? (Apparently they move to Las Vegas :idea: ) It adds to traffic congestion as is apparent in the Bay area and LA with their multi hour commutes.
There needs to be a balance of growth and obviously the local governments haven't been farsighted enough to account for water usage. Its not a crisis yet........once it is, MAYBE then, they will pay attention. :(

[LVjetboy]

"LVJet, can you tell me that the water, being down 36' this year, would have been at the road in your earlier thread. I have a hard time showing my 9 year old how important it is to conserve both water and power. But with your pics, this is something that has a real effect on her since she loves the river.
Thanks"
You can't imagine the impact of a combination of low rainfall and poor water leadership. Lake Powell now stands at only 38% capacity and Mead at 54% The lower each so-called water storage tank goes, the quicker the end comes. Math. The river your daughter loves will disappear if either reservoir drys up. I wish it were just a conservation issue. But it's not. Conservation is good but only delays the inevitable if no other changes are made. Real growth and use issues need to be addressed NOW before it's too late. If you're banking on a few wet winters guess again.
This could be lost forever...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/TempleSunsetNet.jpg
Review Journal 22 October, 2004. Yes that's right folks... yesterday (I follow these issues every day)...
Water Banking? (http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Oct-22-Fri-2004/news/25062034.html)
"An unprecedented agreement that will allow Nevada to store surplus water in a "virtual bank" in California moved one step closer to reality Thursday, when it gained the approval of the Southern Nevada Water Authority board."
So what is a virtual bank?
"Under the deal, Nevada would release some of its annual share of the Colorado River to California in exchange for future rights to an equal portion of California's river allocation."
Oh ok. Like Ca gets more water than allocated in exchange for a future agreement to cutback? Hmmm. Isn't Powell and Mead overextended as is? Aren't we already in a drought so extra water "banked" for the future will IN THE PRESENT further drain Lake Powell and Mead?
"Approval from the bureau could come in as soon as a week, said Pat Mulroy, southern nevada water authority general manager. "It has to be soon," Mulroy said. "California needs that water before the end of the year."
Oh ok, California needs this so all other issues should be set aside...after all, what California needs California should get no matter.
"And the deal with California accomplishes something else, Mulroy said: "It helps establish the spirit of cooperation that we're going to so desperately need on the Colorado River as the drought continues."
Ya whatever Pat. Kum by ya around the campfire you freakin idiot. She btw trumpeted the last river agreement (which she also contributed to) with CA to cut use over 10 years and that agreement fell thru when push came to shove so the Feds stepped in...so what makes her think this agreement will be honored by CA several years from now? Because she needs a positive spin?
My note: If anyone wants to know the history of the former agreement just ask.
"Nevada's annual share of the Colorado, 300,000 acre-feet, is the smallest by far among the seven Western states that draw water from the river. California gets the largest share, 4.4 million acre-feet. "
How long ago was that agreement? How much growth in southern NV vs CA. Who exceeds their allotment by how much?
"The soonest Nevada can begin making withdrawals from its new bank is 2006. Starting then, California has agreed to reduce its share of the Colorado River by up to 30,000 acre-feet per year to allow Nevada to recover any banked water it needs."
What do you think? Will that happen? If you follow the history of these agreements...nope. When push comes to shove, agreements nulled. Banked water or no. Meanwhile overuse justified by banking goes on.
I'm betting in 2006, CA will stall, litigate and use every means in their power to influence, delay and otherwise invalidate any water agreement or "banking" previously agreed to.
"Banking" along with conservation are only a false sense of security championed by bureaucrats like Pat Mulroy trying desperately to appear in control when in reality they don't want to acknowledge the truth or make hard growth regulating decisions best for the future of all.
jer

[NashvilleBound]

When I left CA earlier this year I put a siphon hose in your water supply and am filling up our lakes out here...oh, wait...they are ALREADY full...my mistake ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Rexone]

"An unprecedented agreement that will allow Nevada to store surplus water in a "virtual bank" in California
Lets see...
Water bank to Nevada 30,000 acre feet (bout .7% of CA allotment)
Numbers just for comparative reference...
California's allotment - 4,400,000 acre feet
Diamond Valley Lake's capacity - 800,000 acre feet
Nevada's allotment per year - 300,000 acre feet
Seems like a great deal for CA. Wonder who's pocket Pat is in. ;)

[VelocityDriver]

I think the solution is straight forward, but incredibly difficult to do because of politics.
Weather can't be controlled...drought or no...supply is somewhat unpredictable. A solution has to account for drought. Something our local politicians haven't done and probably yours too.
What can be controlled is demand. For example, this just published in the Las Vegas Review Journal (Saturday, October 09, 2004)...
"Boundary markers signal the start of construction of the first golf course to be built at Coyote Springs, a new master-planned community for which Pardee Homes has signed on to be the master residential developer. The 42,000-acre parcel north of Las Vegas is owned by Coyote Springs Investment, and is the largest privately held property approved for development in Southern Nevada. The next largest is Summerlin, a 22,500-acre community by The Howard Hughes Corp.
Klif Andrews, vice president of community development for Pardee, said the company plans to bring other home builders into the project to help develop the 20,000 acres earmarked for residential use. "We're not going to go out and build a bunch of houses in the desert," he said. "We see this as an opportunity to build homes in an attractive and well-appointed golf course environment, yet still offer an excellent value."
The master plan encompasses a series of Jack Nicklaus Signature golf courses, a golf school, vacation villas, custom lots, single-family and multifamily residences, as well as commercial and retail properties."
So does anyone understand water consumption of 70,000 new homes and more golf courses IN A FREAK'IN DESERT?? Notice this land was "approved for development" by local planners. Those in charge of our water's future.
I read the paper every day. I read articles online as well. I pay attention to water issues. Believe me, the above article's a common thread, there's a huge resource management problem and it's not just because of a drought. It's in your face no matter the drought. And it's happening in all SW states.
Water conservation will not cure this problem in fact will only delay the inevitable and in the end give a false sense of security and justification of the poor decisions of those in power.
The solution is controlling demand. That means tough decisions by those in power, choices that go against big money real estate development and business. Why doesn't that happen? Duh.
1) We need controlled growth. We don't get it.
Las Vegas is a poster city for continued uncontrolled growth as are other SW cities. That means local politicians and city officials encourage maximum growth by the policies they promote. They justify those policies by saying we have plenty of water for the future (not true), then label growth control supporters as idiots not understanding economics who must be educated to see the light. Then they claim growth control is really "no growth" to further distort reality in their favor. What they don't mention is their motivation for decisions based on power and influence of developers and big money...not the reality of limited resources.
2) "We" need other sources of fresh water like desalination plants. We don't get those either.
Why? They cost money. And CA doesn't want to spend that money. Can you blaim them? Of course not with all the Enron debt they (and NV) got soaked for. Especially considering CA is still allowed to overdraw their river allotment by a significant amount for years to come. Drain Lake Powell, it's only a storage tank after all.
And why not fill a new lake in CA while we're at it? Yes Mandelon, that's the Diamond Valley Lake. How many Kalifornians know this?
"This reservoir is larger than Lake Havasu and took 4 years to fill. This reservoir will hold as much water as combining Castaic Lake, Lake Mathews, Pyramid Lake, Lake Perris and Lake Skinner into one."
You think maybe that lake oh excuse me reservoir didn't take water out of Powell during this drought to fill? Can you run your i/o on Diamond Valley Lake? I didn't think so. Have you run Lake Powell Mandelon and experienced this...?
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/DrainPowell.jpg
I didn't think so...and you'd trade that for a lame-ass lake you can't even run your boat on? Earth quake protection?? Jeez.
Or for that matter let's top off the Salton Sea too never mind that lake was mistake in the first place, stinks bad can't drink the water unlike Powell. Salt water? Sucks as a boating lake and well I'd never run salt, was a freakin mistake in the first place. Yet environmentalist want to fill that and drain Lake Powell? WTF??
3) We need common sense in government not those bending to short term gain and well-financed lobbyist, environmental, development or other. Backbone for those in charge...people to stand up for what's right. Write and call your local politicians. Write your local paper. Vote out those who don't support your views on Colorado river preservation.
Or just follow those in charge until our best boating waters are gone forever...
jer
The location is about 40 miles north of Vegas, and they have thier own aquafer and will be getting thier other needed water from the Alamo Valley.
If water were really in a drought, the state of Nevada and Clark county would institute a limited growth plan. It's funny that with the conservation of water that the LVVWD imposed this year, water useage has dropped by 30% in Las Vegas city alone. (http://www.lasvegasnevada.gov/108_8575.htm) If yo look at the cycles of Lake Mead, you notice that the level rise and fall considerable. Look at the '60, water level was about the same as now and the population of Las Vegas was about 65,000....

[Mandelon]

I'm thinking we need a pipeline from the Mississippi to the Colorado.......
If all the people who live in California who were not born in California would just go back where they came from..............There would be plenty for those of us who really are Californians.... :hammerhea

[Squirtin Thunder]

Those pictures look like Bullhead City two days ago. And my garage !!!!
Jim

[C-2]

LVJetboy
Man, you're not kidding when you say you follow these issues closely.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. :)

[LVjetboy]

"The location is about 40 miles north of Vegas, and they have thier own aquafer and will be getting thier other needed water from the Alamo Valley."
Is that aquafer truly independent of all others? Your link talked about city conservation...all good. But what about the major draw...residential growth? Even if all new homes have desert landscaping...eventually demand will outpace supply.
"If water were really in a drought, the state of Nevada and Clark county would institute a limited growth plan."
I think you give too much credit to those in position to make the right choices for our future. Remember, limited growth to them means limited revenue and power. Not to mention limited campaign contributions from development groups and business for re-election. Controlled growth plans were proposed long before this crises (ring around the valley) in a timely manner...shot down by those in favor of unlimited growth and the revenue it generates. Now, when weather's dry, we all just hope for a miracle...how stupid is that? Go on and trust those who run the state of NV and Clark county if you wish.
jer

[LVjetboy]

"this is going to mead"
Looks good unfortunately, but not enough to counter uncontrolled growth.
This will be gone...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/DrainPowell2.jpg
Unless we get record setting rain for years to come...not just a month or two. At that point, will further continuing uncontrolled growth cancel out the wet? Trust those in power if you wish, but do you really think they have our hot boating passion at heart? Not likely.
Interesting thing is...last week at Lake Powell as always, those on tour (a majority of those present) were European and spoke something other than English...German, French...etc. Seems Americans experiencing this wonder are truly the exception. Not good for Powell's future.
jer
jer

[Mandelon]

The Americans are too busy working. Trying to pay taxes and keep up with the Joneses. The Europeans all get 6 weeks vacation a year. :supp: The dollar is is cheap now, so we are a good and safe vacation destination for them.
We went to Yosemite, and checked out El Capitan and Half Dome a few weeks back....lots of Germans and Japanese there.

[Mardonzi]

It has always amazed us also LV,,, what really amazes me it the fact that the europeans will travel halfway around the world to visit this majestic area, but others that we talk to say that 4 hours is "too far to go" for either a boating vacation or anything else. We live approximately 3/4 of a mile from Lake Powell so of course we use it religously. However, we will jump in the car at a moments notice and drive to Vegas for dinner or Phoenix to catch a movie or spend time with friends. Perhaps as a whole, we have become too engrossed with instant gratification to put forth the effort to experience other things, whether it be different lakes to boat on or just seeing what's on the other side of the horizon. (stepping off of the soap box now)

[51FIDDY]

When politicians have a noticeable fraction of the passion that everyone on this board possesses, then and only then will you see changes. Santa Barbara built their desal plant and never flipped the switch. Let's be realistic, why should they? Hmm, Ca has received, and will continue to receive their allotment plus the excess because of their political clout. Ca is a major economic power in the US, and if any of you have noticed...might equals right in this country. How to rectify this problem, Az, Nv, Co; you guys will have to suck it up and go in with Ca in order to make the desal plants any kind of reality. Besides, do you really expect Ca to realize that it just isn't fair to have so much water, so the state will start to spend millions to make the other basin states happy? I can guarantee that I will be dead before that happens.
As explained at great lengths in this thread, weather does go in cycles, and in a few years we will have plenty of water again. Desal can help even out the peaks and valleys of the cycle; possibly even piping water to the other basin states in times of drought. The main point is that these plants will never be built if the responsibility lays in one state's hands. I would say the feds might help, but they're too busy makin money on the war.
One thing troubles me about the politics of water rationing and storage: the people who come up with these ideas are politicians. The final say lays in the hands of people who are driven by money, and don't have a clue about rainfall/snowfall history or trends. I would be suprised if these people are aware of the information displayed in this thread. In order for change, the uneducated must get learned gooder by "we the people." Seem crappy? Face the music and take responsibility to save your lakes. I say lakes because that is what they are; If I can put my boat on it, then it's a lake. If I can't, then it's a reservoir or storage tank or whatever you want to call it.
The population problem is trying to work itself out. The average family size continues to decrease. Every year, people are having fewer children because homes require two working entities. Will growth stop? No. That is a capitalistic trait, we must continue to grow in economy and consumers. Are we going to become communist and tell people who can and can't have a kid? Maybe that's your country, not mine. I would hope that someday the public could become educated and realize having your own basketball team of kids may be unnecessary.
One final note, when will researchers push for weather control? The feds have no problem in offering money up for a commercial airplane to space, but who cares about being able to make rain. Why would we want to make rain? What, so there would be no more droughts? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!!! (uh, yeah, that's sarcasm, yeah, ok)
You know why the Euros and the Asians really come here? Not because it's cheap, but because they don't have Yosemite, Lake Powell, Havasu, etc... Make a statement and talk to your congressman/senetor, boy scout troop leader. Anyone can make a difference, strike that, everyone can make a difference. :idea: