First time out w/21' Daytona V drive

[Unchained]

It finally warmed up enough to take the boat out so I went for the 1st ride last sunday.
It was not a real good experience. The motor starts and runs ok but I experienced some bad handling characteristics. Under accelleration the bow is up but when you back off a little and the bow comes down the boat wanted to do a little "dangerous dance". It turns out that this boat from the factory came with dual fins that stick down below the hull between the front seats like a flatbottom has. Well a little checking around and I found that tunnels don't need or want those fins.
I sawed them off and went back out.
What a difference. Handling was markedly better under power.
This boat had must have had that problem since day one and no one ever caught it or changed it.
All I ever had before this was jetboats and I found quite a few pros and cons here.
The boat cruises effortlessly at about 2200 rpm. That's nice.
It airs out immediately and steers nice.
I looked behind the boat while cruising along and there's almost no wake. ??
Less wake even than what my jetboat has.
Should be great for slalom skiing.
Wakeboarding ? who cares.
The power is way off on this Ford motor. I changed the ign timing and that made a little difference. I'm thinking this prop at a full 12" dia is too much, it seems like I see other guys running 11 1/2 " so they will slip some.
The 6-71 blower shows no boost at all. It's at 9% UD on the pulleys.
I'll change the pulleys and go to 9% OD and see how that does. When I ran a 6-71 on a 454 I ran about 21% OD to get 7# boost at 6000 rpm.
The trans is nice, I started out in 2nd and shifted to third, Ok but not real impressive. The outboard guys will run circles around this.
There's a certain amount of vibration and noise that comes from the gearbox and driveshafts at certain rpms and at other rpms its about dead quiet.
Reverse is nice but there's no steering in reverse.
A little fine tuning is in order here.

[Itsahobby]

Give fastsanger a PM. He has a vdrive Daytona that hauls the mail!!
Hobby

[MAXIMUS]

I am a little jealous here... :notam: That boat is going to be really bitchen when you get it dialed in! :)

[Unchained]

I'm in the dark as to what prop would be perfect here.
Is that usually a trial and error thing ?
It has a 12 x 16 three blade stainless and 18% OD gears.
It just feels like the motor can't get on top of the prop.
I'll work on the HP / tuning problem.
I would think that this motor should be at 600 hp with that 6-71 BDS blower.

[blowngas]

noise that comes from the gearbox
the casale in my flat used to sound bad with regular gear oil in it----changed to synthetic gear oil and the howl went away------only thing I will run in gearbox and blower drive-----see if that won't help yours

[dmontzsta]

To answer your wake question, with another question. :)
How can there be a wake? when there is no boat in the water? :)

[superdave013]

you will want to run a 2 blade steel prop I'm thinkin.

[lilrick]

you will want to run a 2 blade steel prop I'm thinkin.
You're not paid to think!! So get back to work!!!:D

[Big Kahunaa]

.
.
I would think that this motor should be at 600 hp with that 6-71 BDS blower.
that motor should be way over 600 hp

[Kurtis500]

There's a certain amount of vibration and noise that comes from the gearbox and driveshafts at certain rpms and at other rpms its about dead quiet.
Sounds like you have an imbalance. A bit of noise is normal if its a Casale or smaller gearbox, but vibration is not! When it comes and goes at various RPM's its acting like an off-balanced tire. Are you able to put your hand on the v-drive while its running?
0 boost a 9 under seems possible if the blower is loose. But thats not exactly a bad thing depending on what you are doing..

[Unchained]

Thanks for all the feedback.
SD, I asked the friend with the 21' Cougar V-drive about the 2 blade and he has one but he said it vibrated so bad it wanted to shake the gauges out of the dash. He's the guy who got me started down this path.
Maybe he didn't have the right style two blade it wanted ? How many variations are there in two blade props?
He doesn't have a trans so his prop requirements are probably different ?
Kurtis, I'm guessing there's some cavitation when turning sharp and that's part of the vibration.
Going straight it cruises pretty quiet and vibration free.
I did put my hand on the gearbox and it feels cool and smooth.
I need some more seat time to figure out what's the norm here.

[Marty Gras]

How deep is the prop center in respect to the sponsons? Often the prop will 'pull in air' just going over a roller, so if it has more "smooth running" than "rough running", you don't have a problem. Unless something is loose! 12" prop seems large, but the prop center may be out of the water at speed (surface piercing). 600HP should be able to turn the 18's at least 5500RPM's with that airplane prop, look at your tune up. I have always put strakes on the outer sponsons of those boats, the center is where the load is riding and the outer angles have no lift, just drag. Does it turn well, above 40MPH without the fins? What is the shaft angle? Where is the motor mounted? The V-drive? At least you got to go boating!

[MAXIMUS]

Have you tried to contact Infomaniac. He seems to have his boat very dialed in. There should be some good similar traits there! :)

[Unchained]

How deep is the prop center in respect to the sponsons?
**About 7" **
Often the prop will 'pull in air' just going over a roller, so if it has more "smooth running" than "rough running", you don't have a problem. Unless something is loose!
** The prop shaft clearance is real tight in the strut and the whip strut**
12" prop seems large, but the prop center may be out of the water at speed (surface piercing). 600HP should be able to turn the 18's at least 5500RPM's with that airplane prop, look at your tune up. I have always put strakes on the outer sponsons of those boats, the center is where the load is riding and the outer angles have no lift, just drag. Does it turn well, above 40MPH without the fins?
**It turns real well, no problem. There is some cavitation in a sharp turn.**
What is the shaft angle?
** 7 1/2 - 8 degrees from the keel **
Where is the motor mounted?
**25 1/2 " from the inside of the transom to the front of the cylinder head, about as far back as it will go and still have good access to the water pump. **
The V-drive?
**The Casale box is right between the front seats. **
At least you got to go boating!
I swapped the blower pulleys and took it out again today.
Makes about 4# of boost w/9% OD. Better performance but a lot louder.
This is going to take some fine tuning. :cool:
It's certainly a different boating experience than the jet boat.
Pros and cons.
Not in the same league as far as performance.
I am going to try some different props.
Thanks for any input.
Mark

[Marty Gras]

Prop centerline is 7" below the outer sponsons? It rides smooth 'cause it is riding on the power. They tried to 'load' the motor with the "airplane prop" instead of going up on the gears. You will find that the boat 'needs' a 3 blade to keep it up out of the water (surface area) because the outer sponsons have no strakes. I would get the motor to run well, then put 29% or 32% gears in the box. Try to borrow a 11 1/2 x 16 three blade, and 'let 'er rip'! Please don't use ANY bronze props EVER, as they will not take the power. You can run your 12" prop, but it will need to be very far forward of the optimal prop placement. Where is the prop in relationship to the #2 & #4 cylinders? Is the prop directly under them? Is the motor forward of the strut?

[Unchained]

Marty Gras,
From the back of the prop to the front of the rudder is 10.5 ". From the back of the prop to the back of the transom is 14". The motor is about right above the strut.
The guy I know with the 21' Cougar runs a smaller prop too but still a three blade. I think he runs 35% to 40% gears with no trans but has about 1000 hp turning it.
The prop centerline is 6 3/8" below the keel at the front edge and the outer sponsons are about 1" above the keel.
I don't know much about props but I feel this one loads the motor down too much.

[Kurtis500]

I'm in the dark as to what prop would be perfect here.
Is that usually a trial and error thing ?
It has a 12 x 16 three blade stainless and 18% OD gears.
It just feels like the motor can't get on top of the prop.
BTW, how heavy is the boat? 18% over gears with a blown motor that cant get it going??....... it does sound like there is a problem somewhere. A lot of heavy daycruisers can pull that and much more.
With just a small adjustment by Dallas at Menkens to my 3 blade cleaver, I picked up 13 mph and .5 in e.t. alone.

[DEL51]

I would look hard into converting it over to a jet boat. J/K. Is this still in carburetor config. It is a different engine, have you checked out the timing, ie ford retard on the cam. Cam timing is crucial on the ford BB.Are you sure this thing is making power? By the way, yu need to come to Shawano with the jet this summer. We want some competion for the fast OB's, And flattie. :)

[Unchained]

BTW, how heavy is the boat? 18% over gears with a blown motor that cant get it going??....... it does sound like there is a problem somewhere. A lot of heavy daycruisers can pull that and much more.
With just a small adjustment by Dallas at Menkens to my 3 blade cleaver, I picked up 13 mph and .5 in e.t. alone.
The boat doesn't really feel heavy, It gets right up on plane and airs out immediately. I'm convinced the prop dia is too much. I can borrow a 11 1/2" three blade and a two blade to try.
Chris,
The carbs are still on there and I'm working on the tune. I'm questioning the cam too, My experience with Fords is the cam more resembles a piece of bar stock than a bump stick.
I'm a lot more familiar with chevy's where their "born to run".
That meet in Shawano may be do-able for me.
What are those dates ?

[VD CRUISER]

I don't know if the prop requirements are the same for a tunel hull as for a v bottom, but my Howard cruiser always performs better with the smaller dia props. I have used as small as a 11 1/4" X 16 two blade, but of course it takes off better with a 11 1/2 or 11 3/4. I use the small prop with a lot of overdrive,(48%). Three blade will be much smoother, but not as fast. More boost might wake that Ford up.

[DetroitJim]

Mark, let me know if you want to try some gears, I have a few laying around. I do wonder if that cam is retarded, what's the cranking compression?
DJ

[superdave013]

It's certainly a different boating experience than the jet boat.
Pros and cons.
Not in the same league as far as performance.
And I don't think it ever will be in the same league as far as performance goes.
Look at what you are comparing.
21' delaminators were great outboard hulls and ok jet boats. A few have gotten them to work as v drives but that was never the intent when that hull was designed.
Your TPR tunnel was designed as ONLY a fast jet boat and it does it very well.

[MAXIMUS]

And I don't think it ever will be in the same league as far as performance goes.
Look at what you are comparing.
21' delaminators were great outboard hulls and ok jet boats. A few have gotten them to work as v drives but that was never the intent when that hull was designed.
Your TPR tunnel was designed as ONLY a fast jet boat and it does it very well.
Listen cake packer... get back in the kitchen! :rolleyes:

[Unchained]

Mark, let me know if you want to try some gears, I have a few laying around. I do wonder if that cam is retarded, what's the cranking compression?
DJ
Thanks Jim,
The cranking compression is pretty even but only averages 135#
I am going to put a dial indicator on the rocker and see what the cam lift is.
I'll bet it's some truck cam.
It's going to need a lot more blower OD to get up and go.
I don't have any 1/2" pitch pulleys anymore. I guess I'll need to collect some more. I've got one 8mm pulley left but it's a 69t.
I'm going to tow the boat over to Ann Arbor and try some props that Dave B. has. I'll take you up on those gears and what do you have laying around in props?
SD, I know, I didn't buy the Daytona to replace the Stealth.
I need to have one of each. I think the Daytona will be a great boat with some fine tuning. Some of the characteristics of the V-drive are advantages over the jet and some aren't.
I really need to remove these carbs and go to EFI on the Ford motor though.
Maximus, I did call Infomaniac and he was real helpful as always.

[Marty Gras]

Looks like you are getting plenty of help here. I'll just step back and listen, since I've only rerigged 3 of these Daytona V- drives, and I don't want to get too technical (like motor to prop placement in exact measurements) and upset everyone. Hope it all works out for you. PS, on an unknown blower motor the static compression number means nothing. If the numbers are all even, then it's 'nice'. The motor may have 7.0 static compression and a "monster" roller cam. If so, you would have very low compression readings (100lbs and less). Some drag boat blower motors run 108 lobe centers, to kill the low end. (tons of overlap) But you already knew these things. Good luck!

[Unchained]

Marty Gras,
I appreciate any input, don't go away.
Send me a PM with some input if you want.
I compared some measurements to what are on the Cougar tunnel and it's very close. The owner of the Cougar worked for years changing motor position and gearbox location to get his boat to work as well as it does.
When he got it the motor was way forward and the boat wouldn't air out. Someone had rigged it like a flatbottom and that didn't work. This Daytona airs out real good and that takes some getting used to for me. This boat only has a cav plate in the center and I'm questioning if it needs cav plates behind the sponsons too.
I think this motor is just a completely stock 460 that had a 6-71 bolted on from the factory in 1983.
It's got a lot of real nice looking polished parts that I would like to keep so I'm going to give the Ford a fair chance before I remove it.
I'm going to check out the cam, put some more blower OD in it and try a 11.5" prop this weekend.
I'm also in the process of building a set of stainless turbo headers for a race boat. It's tough to work all the projects at the same time but that's the way I like it. :cool:

[superdave013]

Looks like you are getting plenty of help here. I'll just step back and listen, since I've only rerigged 3 of these Daytona V- drives, and I don't want to get too technical (like motor to prop placement in exact measurements) and upset everyone. Hope it all works out for you. PS, on an unknown blower motor the static compression number means nothing. If the numbers are all even, then it's 'nice'. The motor may have 7.0 static compression and a "monster" roller cam. If so, you would have very low compression readings (100lbs and less). Some drag boat blower motors run 108 lobe centers, to kill the low end. (tons of overlap) But you already knew these things. Good luck!
I have enjoyed reading your posts. Not just in this thread either. I do not see anyone disputing any advice you are giving here let alone getting upset. I think you adding strakes to the outter sponsens is pretty inovative. I know I would have just been thinking air entrapment and strakes would have never crossed my mind.
This site needs more guys like you. Don't go away man.

[Kurtis500]

Looks like you are getting plenty of help here. I'll just step back and listen, since I've only rerigged 3 of these Daytona V- drives, and I don't want to get too technical (like motor to prop placement in exact measurements) and upset everyone. Hope it all works out for you. PS, on an unknown blower motor the static compression number means nothing. If the numbers are all even, then it's 'nice'. The motor may have 7.0 static compression and a "monster" roller cam. If so, you would have very low compression readings (100lbs and less). Some drag boat blower motors run 108 lobe centers, to kill the low end. (tons of overlap) But you already knew these things. Good luck!
Did we step on your toes?

[DEL51]

The boat doesn't really feel heavy, It gets right up on plane and airs out immediately. I'm convinced the prop dia is too much. I can borrow a 11 1/2" three blade and a two blade to try.
Chris,
The carbs are still on there and I'm working on the tune. I'm questioning the cam too, My experience with Fords is the cam more resembles a piece of bar stock than a bump stick.
I'm a lot more familiar with chevy's where their "born to run".
That meet in Shawano may be do-able for me.
What are those dates ?
We are working on the date their bud, and feel free to bring the big boat. I personally am interested in the small one. Fan of each one. I really Like v-drives and some hot OB's too.

[DEL51]

Thanks Jim,
The cranking compression is pretty even but only averages 135#
I am going to put a dial indicator on the rocker and see what the cam lift is.
I'll bet it's some truck cam.
It's going to need a lot more blower OD to get up and go.
I don't have any 1/2" pitch pulleys anymore. I guess I'll need to collect some more. I've got one 8mm pulley left but it's a 69t.
I'm going to tow the boat over to Ann Arbor and try some props that Dave B. has. I'll take you up on those gears and what do you have laying around in props?
SD, I know, I didn't buy the Daytona to replace the Stealth.
I need to have one of each. I think the Daytona will be a great boat with some fine tuning. Some of the characteristics of the V-drive are advantages over the jet and some aren't.
I really need to remove these carbs and go to EFI on the Ford motor though.
Maximus, I did call Infomaniac and he was real helpful as always.
i have some 8 mm pulleys and a belt or two? non intercooled.Chev sizes.

[Unchained]

We are working on the date their bud, and feel free to bring the big boat. I personally am interested in the small one. Fan of each one. I really Like v-drives and some hot OB's too.
If it was a "Hot Boat" meet I'd definitely bring the TT Stealth.
If I had to run 50 miles + and carry three or four people and a bunch of gear I'd bring the Daytona.

[Marty Gras]

"Dave", you know me, I could make the cavitation hardware for him. The 'strakes' along with plates over the "traps" (like the jets) and 'side curtains' (4) to elongate the air traps will make that bitch get plenty loose. Good thing going down on the prop diameter.

[Unchained]

I'm getting somewhere now. The motors making a pitiful 5# of blower boost and that along with changing numerous other things on the motor and repiping the fuel pump lines has it making a fair show on the water now.
I think I expected too much from the start on this after driving the other boat for years. For having 1/2 the hp of the jet I think this is pulling pretty good.
I haven't ever driven a flatbottom and only a couple other V drives before so I don't really know all the characteristics.
Under accelleration it wants to pull slightly to the right and when I back off on it comes back to the left.
I'm guessing a smaller prop diameter will lessen the torque reaction on the hull?
It seems to like the cav plate down a couple notches from straight out otherwise it's a wheelie machine.

[DetroitJim]

You learn fast, Mark. The pulling to the side will be a little less with a smaller prop but it won't go away. Once you get used to it you hardly notice. The plates will always need to be kicked down if you want to leave hard, and should be slightly up at speed. Youv'e seen Dave Burgess' boat run, he runs very aired out but his prop is also well forward. In fact Dave sawed off the strut barrel almost all the way to the back of the strut. So when are you heading over this way? I'm in G.R next week sometime.
DJ

[CcanDo]

Mark,
Glad to hear you finally had it out!! I don't understand why the blower is only making 5lbs at 6% over. However, I have some pulleys that will work with that belt if you want to try them. As I told you, the 6-71 was leaking oil when I bought it so I never ran it. I bolted on a 8-71 with those pulleys at 6% under and saw 7.5lbs boost.
I am glad to hear you fixed the John Deere plumbing on the fuel system, but I am not too sure about cutting off the skegs. All V-drives I have been in kind of settle (squirm) when you get out of the gas. It seemed to me like the boat turned/handled very well at speed, whic I attribute to the skegs.
As for the torque steer, the only time I rode in Elmers V-drive Liberator was with a blown alcohol motor. When launching, he would grab at least a half turn of the steering wheel, the 1/2 turn the other way when he got out of it. What you are feeling is NOTHING! Just takes getting used to.
I was told the Daytonas wanted a three blade prop, or they would cavitate a great deal during even a slight turn. Also, while the two blade will be faster, the three blade will have much less vibration. With these two things in mind, the three blade might be a better choice for "pleasure" use. Without question. the prop could be a smaller diameter, but I think you would be well served getting the prop fixed by a reputable/talented prop shop. I could see where the prop had been damaged and is not true. I expect the prop is responsible for the small amount of vibration you are feeling.
Finally, change the timing set. WHile I am not certain, I would just about guarantee the "retarded" factory chain set is on the motor. If so, I guarantee this single change will make a huge difference to the way the motor runs. The motor will like it better (EGT's) also. Also, I am sure you know those exhaust logs are taking about 50 horsepower. Headers with mufflers would put a smile on your face performance wise.
Email me if you want/need the pulleys. Would love to see some pics in the water or running.
Regards,
John

[Unchained]

Thanks John,
Don't take it personal if I'm questioning any of the setup on this boat.
I'm happy with the boat, I just want to get the most out of it I can.
I know you didn't run it very much and put your efforts into your offshore boats.
I'm still changing things and fine tuning on the jet after three years.
I put the dial indicator on the #1 cylinder rocker to try to get an idea of the cam lift. Well that's not going to work with hyd lifters. It is bleeding down and I can't get a reading. Its got adjustable pushrods so maybe I can adjust the pushrod longer so the lifter is collapsed and then get a reading.
I looked at pulling the front cover off to try to check the cam timing and that's a time consuming job that will require removing the front motor mounts and everything on the front of the motor. There's no separate cover over just the cam like my other engine has.
It's not running too bad now so I will probably try to do some less invasive tuning, for now.

[CcanDo]

Take it personal - never. I am sure you didn't believe me, but I ran the boat one time for about 2 hours. I did set the timing before I ran it because of the bigger blower. It had 35 degrees in it - I think I set it to 32. That 671 had never been fired before you got it - should be right. BDS did the work.
No really, I knocked the dust off every couple of months, but other than that, I didn't touch it. So I am very interested in your progress. Would love to see some water pics if you have them. I didn't take any but always wanted to see it in the water. Just not enough time in my day for three boats.

[Unchained]

I tried out a different prop yesterday, A 11" x 16 steel three blade. What a huge improvement that made.
With the prop that came on the boat it wouldn't pull over 4600 rpm, the motor was always lugging, and there seemed to be way to much bow lift.
With the 11" prop the motor runs up over 5600 and the accelleration and handling are way better. The rpm at cruising speeds is higher which must relate to more slippage than the 12" prop. The guy who lent me the 11" prop views the prop as a torque converter that slips up to a point and hooks up at higher speed.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220daytona5406.JPG
I believe that the 12" stainless prop that came on the boat was just an inboard ski boat prop because the blades on the 11" steel prop were a totally different shape.

[MAXIMUS]

Way cool unchained I will be starting down your path here shortly. Check out my new project...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_001.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_007.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_008.jpg

[LD Mandella]

Maximus, not to hijack this thread but what do you know about that center console boat in the background, you can PM me if you would like, I have a Nordic like that ( v-drive) and like to see other peoples goodies.
Thanks
John

[lucky]

Way cool unchained I will be starting down your path here shortly. Check out my new project...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_001.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_007.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_008.jpg
GREAT , BEN DOES THIS MEAN PLAN B WILL BECOME PLAN C= CHRIS'S :cool:

[Marty Gras]

That looks like a great place to boat! Your 'prop buddy' is correct, the prop is like a converter. It seems to slip too much, because you are putting too much torque to it at lower speeds vs the displacement. After you get the motor running consistantly, you will need to put more gear in it. Like 1.29's, the 18's are way to low for the weight and the torque of (even a mild) blown motor. You know you don't need to "rev up" the blower motor like you would a normally asperated deal, so go up in gear. If you were installing your TURBO EFI jet boat motor in this boat, I would go up to 45's in the gears, but the Ford is 'mild' so just go 29's. Yes, 'blade rake' and blade surface area are the most mis-understood "magic" about V- drive props. Nice to see you boating!

[superdave013]

Maxi, that looks like a cut up schiada 20'

[HM]

Maxi, that looks like a cut up schiada 20'
I thought about cutting up my Campbell. Then decided to go with something more proven, although, it would be not be as cool as a tunnel Campbell....assuming the tunnel actually worked correctly and was safe. That is why I am now selling my Campbell as my next v-drive will be a tunnel - more than likely a Cougar 22 MTR. I have also been thinking about the Schiada tunnel runner or what ever they call it. Have they done that in a v-drive?

[MAXIMUS]

Maxi, that looks like a cut up schiada 20'
Close... Its a schiada deck. Anybody know what the bottom is??? This boat was originally built by Dick Coburn. He has since passed away & the boat has made its way around a little. Then I was the lucky one to have the oppertunity of purchasing it. For the most part it is unproven. From what I understand Dick was a very sharp individual & really dug this boat! I plan on finishing it in honor of him & making it work! Then ramming it up eveybody's asses at the next enduro! :devil: Should be really fun to work with & learn from. I will keep eveybody posted when I get some time to try it out. :)

[MAXIMUS]

GREAT , BEN DOES THIS MEAN PLAN B WILL BECOME PLAN C= CHRIS'S :cool:
No I am a classic Horder! I am not fond of selling my childern... Plan B will be my coffin when I am done...
:)

[MAXIMUS]

Maximus, not to hijack this thread but what do you know about that center console boat in the background, you can PM me if you would like, I have a Nordic like that ( v-drive) and like to see other peoples goodies.
Thanks
John
Then don't! :devil:
Contact Havasu47 on the boards. He is bald & gay but I am sure he could help you with info on that purple pecker fest boat... or call him at B&D marine 626-443-3721 & ask for Brian.

[Havasu47]

Then don't! :devil:
Contact Havasu47 on the boards. He is bald & gay but I am sure he could help you with info on that purple pecker fest boat... or call him at B&D marine 626-443-3721 & ask for Brian.
Did you ever get those puss filled lumps on your a$$ taken care of???? :D

[lucky]

Did you ever get those puss filled lumps on your a$$ taken care of???? :D
My balls ? -- no they're still there :crossx:

[MAXIMUS]

fukin hijackers! :mad: The lumps stay in fagracers section the good stuff stays here! And no they are still there as lucky mentioned... :rolleyes:

[HM]

Sorry for Jacking, Unchained! Looks like a bitchen boat that will run great when you get it dial in. There are not a lot of v-drive 21 Daytonas running around, so I am sure the setup definitely needs to be dialed in. I was talking to a few mfg's about doing a 22ft or bigger v-drive and most would ask me WTF? My choices are definitely limited. I want to go bigger than 21 ft as I want it to be a "family" machine...you know, a family machine with 1000 + HP. I am looking for better ride and better cruising speeds. I rode in a Cougar 21 MTR v-drive a while back, and decided that day that was my next boat (a tunnel v-drive that is).
BTW - backing up in an inboard is hit and miss. They tend to walk sideways in the direction of the prop torque. You have to have a bit of speed to get the rudder to have any effect, and it barely has any when you do. You get used to it after a while....occasionally you have to attempt a re-approach.

[Marty Gras]

"Mr Holy Moly" did ANY of the manufacturers you spoke with, "speak V- drive"? Do any of them build V- drive V bottoms? It appears to be a difficult task in 'teaching V- drive installation' to $8.50 per hour workers. OH, now they also just need to find someone who knows how to rig and TEACH V- drives!

[HM]

"Mr Holy Moly" did ANY of the manufacturers you spoke with, "speak V- drive"? Do any of them build V- drive V bottoms? It appears to be a difficult task in 'teaching V- drive installation' to $8.50 per hour workers. OH, now they also just need to find someone who knows how to rig and TEACH V- drives!
Most of them did not speak v-drive, but, one manufacturer was willing to give it a try and do what ever mods are needed in the hull lay-up to make it a v-drive hull, not just a conversion...that was John Wes at Ultra. I would have to provide him with what mods are needed or have an expert provide him if I didn't know, but he wanted me to know that it is uncharted area for him and could not guess on actual performance - but would do what ever I wanted! I would be a cool factor to have an Ultra v-drive....but I am not trying to create history. I just want a good safe running 22-23 ft tunnel v-drive.
I drink the koolaid at Wilkes marine, so I want Jim Wilkes to do all the rigging. I have scene his rigging on a 21 MTR that was about the nicest rigging I have ever scene. Looked overkill, but they were putting a 1200 HP twin turbo monster in it, so overkill was expected. Jim has worked on all my boats and my families boats. And, he has Bounce who's work is pretty much unmatched in the industry.

[dmontzsta]

Frank, you are turning in to a yuppie. :( just GO...GO BACK to the sandbar. :crossx: :)

[HM]

Frank, you are turning in to a yuppie. :( just GO...GO BACK to the sandbar. :crossx: :)
Don't you have some clipper bashing to do? Don't piss this yuppie off....I can get you banned from Canyon Lake - AKA Yuppie Ville Central....which you said you wanted to spend more time at....so that makes you a Wanna Be Yuppie? Gotta go, need to get the JAG in the garage before any evening dew spots it up. Then, I can just have my butler wipe it down in the morning after he finishes my foot massage. :D

[Unchained]

That looks like a great place to boat! Your 'prop buddy' is correct, the prop is like a converter. It seems to slip too much, because you are putting too much torque to it at lower speeds vs the displacement. After you get the motor running consistantly, you will need to put more gear in it. Like 1.29's, the 18's are way to low for the weight and the torque of (even a mild) blown motor. You know you don't need to "rev up" the blower motor like you would a normally asperated deal, so go up in gear. If you were installing your TURBO EFI jet boat motor in this boat, I would go up to 45's in the gears, but the Ford is 'mild' so just go 29's. Yes, 'blade rake' and blade surface area are the most mis-understood "magic" about V- drive props. Nice to see you boating!
Thanks or the help,
I went out boating again Sunday and had a lot more seat time in the Daytona.
I'm going to be real happy with this boat. It was windy and I was running through some pretty good chop at 50+ mph and the hull floats over it real good. I can see your point about the gears though. It could use more gear with the smaller prop. I shape of the prop ear on the 11" seems to give a lot more stern lift and requires less down plate than the original prop.
Maximus,
Glad to see you got that Jones tunnel. That was a great find.
Holy Moly,
I rode in a 21' Cougar tunnel a few years ago too.
Now look what that lead to...........
I'm really hooked on the ride of the tunnel hulls.

[mercdrag]

Way cool unchained I will be starting down your path here shortly. Check out my new project...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_001.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_007.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2202shop_pics_008.jpg
must be jones tunnels only came with one interior color :rollside:
man mark I like the new boat. see you on the river soon. tom

[Marty Gras]

"Mr Holy Moly" did you actually see the 1200HP 21 Cougar run? How was it? "Unchained", as you go down in diameter, you go back (move the prop to the rear) with the prop. I still feel that you will be 'really close' with an 11 1/4" X 16 pitch 3 blade Menkens (Az.) prop, with the "full radious cup". It will have the blade 'rake' needed to 'push' the V- drive and 'settle' the tail. If you are able to try one of these props, it will require at least "3 nickles", behind your old 12" prop.

[HM]

"Mr Holy Moly" did you actually see the 1200HP 21 Cougar run? How was it?
I did not see it run. Nor do I know if it was a true 1200 HP. I just remember it being some monster twin turbo motor with 4 digit HP. I never heard how it ran either. But it sure was one of the cleanest boats I had scene.

[Unchained]

"Unchained", as you go down in diameter, you go back (move the prop to the rear) with the prop. I still feel that you will be 'really close' with an 11 1/4" X 16 pitch 3 blade Menkens (Az.) prop, with the "full radious cup". It will have the blade 'rake' needed to 'push' the V- drive and 'settle' the tail. If you are able to try one of these props, it will require at least "3 nickles", behind your old 12" prop.
I'm going to order a new prop here in a few weeks from Menkens.
He recommended the same prop as you, an 11 1/4" x 16
I'm searching around for some 29% gears also.
I had some head gasket problems that led me to pull the motor out of the boat
last week. I'm putting new aluminum heads on it and changing some other things. It had new + .030 TRW forged pistons in it and was balanced. The rods have polished beams and are shot peened. I've got a better feeling for the Ford after doing some wrenching on it now. It looks like a good head design with a symetrical port layout on the intake and exhaust. The cam timing was right on at split overlap however the ignition timing pointer was off by 5 - 6 degrees.
I'll have the motor back in there in a couple days and be back on the water. This is great having two boats. One is always going to be running if you're wrenching on the other.
This motor has a cam driven magnaflow water pump. How much pressure do these put out ? Do they need any regulator ?

[fastsanger]

are you against running a 2 blade or are you just content with a cruiser ?

[Unchained]

I have no experience with a 2 blade prop. (not much with a 3 blade either)
Several guys just told me that they vibrated excessively.
One guy told me it would shake the gauges out of the dash.
I thought I seen the gauges in the dash of Info's boat shaking around in one of his videos.
How much more performance would you get with the 2 blade?
Would it cavitate more in the turns ?

[fastsanger]

my first expierience when i bought the boat went 90 with a 3 blade started to walk left to right real hard put a 2 blade 11/15 on it 29 gears went 110, put a 11-1/2 17 2 blade put 25 gears in it ran 124 all the same motor no vibration now it has a 600 " blown deal joey grose 2 blade 32 gears runs 135 all day long in a 1/4 mile at 7200 no vibration et real hard (for a 21 boat)hope this helps pm # me if you bs about your boat

[Itsahobby]

:) :) :)
Give fastsanger a PM. He has a vdrive Daytona that hauls the mail!!
Hobby

[cal dez rat]

I thought about cutting up my Campbell. Then decided to go with something more proven, although, it would be not be as cool as a tunnel Campbell....assuming the tunnel actually worked correctly and was safe. That is why I am now selling my Campbell as my next v-drive will be a tunnel - more than likely a Cougar 22 MTR. I have also been thinking about the Schiada tunnel runner or what ever they call it. Have they done that in a v-drive?
I'm a Campbell rigger from the old days. The most famous Campbell of all was Robert's own tunnel powered boat with an all aluminum Can-Am block left over from their road racing contacts. It was raced in the Parker 9 hour but immediately after the race was destroyed on his orders because he didn't want the company to be known as a race boat shop. Ha! According to Robert, he had a bulldozer come and smash the boat to pieces. When I asked my fellow employees, they told me the boat was running circles around Bob Nordskog's entry. Nordskog implied there's no such thing as a fast Campbell! I guess Robert showed him. Regards.

[Riverkid]

And, he has Bounce who's work is pretty much unmatched in the industry.
GN Quality!!!
:D :D :D
Hello Bounce. I know you're lurking... :)

[Unchained]

Thanks to FastSanger for the rundown on your Daytona buildup.
Now I've got a good idea of the extreme performance that's possible with one of these tunnel hulls. 132 mph + in a 1/4 mi. with a 21' four seat boat.
I can't think of any 21' 4 seat boat that could compare to that. And hauling around the weight of a trans too.
Here's your pictures,
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220sgdaytona1.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220sgdaytona2.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220sgdaytona4.JPG
Now I'm really revved up, That Turbo motor's inching it's way closer to the Daytona by the day.

[Warp Factor]

Hi, guys.
Been hanging around with "Unchained" for a number of years.
Thought maybe it was time to register here. :rollside:

[MAXIMUS]

Hi, guys.
Been hanging around with "Unchained" for a number of years.
Thought maybe it was time to register here. :rollside:
Welcome I like your ride. I saw that in hot boat years ago & really liked it then too! Please share some info on it if you would be so kind... :)

[Warp Factor]

Welcome I like your ride. I saw that in hot boat years ago & really liked it then too! Please share some info on it if you would be so kind... :)
Yeah, that was a while ago, back when Wilkes was saying that V-drive tunnels don't work.......you can't get them to air out.
Now I hear he's rigging them. :D
What do you want to know?
502 Chevy, Lunati solid roller, 6-71, 10 pounds boost, 175 of nitrous, pump gas, 16 pitch prop, 1.48 gears. The boat is insured, so I'm not sure I want to talk about performance on a public forum. :frown:
Goes pretty good, but not as fast as "fastsanger". Engine was built as an "endurance" motor, something that you can run around all day. Hasn't had a teardown for 7 years.
We'll get "Unchained" up to speed, and in a couple of years that Eliminator will leave me in the dust!
Cheers

[Marty Gras]

"Fastsanger" What year is your boat? With "48" gears YOU don't need to worry about 'prop vibration', but a mild Ford will never get where you are at, and never pull those gears. I'm asking the year because that's my hardware all over the transom of your boat. What kind of RPM do you have at 135MPH?

[fastsanger]

"Fastsanger" What year is your boat? With "48" gears YOU don't need to worry about 'prop vibration', but a mild Ford will never get where you are at, and never pull those gears. I'm asking the year because that's my hardware all over the transom of your boat. What kind of RPM do you have at 135MPH?
hey mg its a 1986 with 32 gears at 7200 as far as the ford i dont care what you have for a motor there is no reason not to try a 2 blade i have learned to try and see tunnels are amazing with the right amount of r&r not alot of people have done the homework that i have done to mine 12 props 6 sets of gears 2 trannys 2 motors and alot of heart and sole anyway hope this helps

[Marty Gras]

I'm sorry for posting wrong specs. Let's see, 7200 RPMs with 32' gears. What prop pitch are you running? Is it a 16, 17, 18?

[Warp Factor]

a mild Ford will never get where you are at, and never pull those gears.
I hear ya, but don't forget, "Unchained" has this electronically fuel injected twin turbo 540 Arias in his other boat. If he gets comfortable with this Eliminator and sees enough potential, I'll bet it's just a matter of time before the Arias or something similar goes into the Eliminator.
It's hard to see him getting to the point where he says,
"This is working pretty OK, I think I'll leave it alone." :D
Hey Mark, come out to the meet today, drive my boat around all you want, get a feel for it.
Oh, I forgot to mention one thing about my boat that some of you might find interesting or controversial. I offset the Casale, strut and entire propshaft a little bit to the right side of the boat. The idea was to reduce pulling right on acceleration, and left on decel. Also, since prop lift is offset to the right, it reduces the tendency for prop torque to lift the left side of the boat and plant the right, keeping it more balanced. I think it's working, because most V-drives I've been in require some left rudder to go straight at speed, and mine doesn't.
Less rudder angle should create a little less drag.
Hey "fastsanger", since I'm new here, what's the story behind your avatar?

[Unchained]

Hey Mark, come out to the meet today, drive my boat around all you want, get a feel for it.
Thanks Dave but I can't make the boat meet today.
My daughters flying in from Fla, I have to pick her up in Lansing this morning and bring her back to GR. She's getting married next Sat and there's some more prep work to do.

[MAXIMUS]

Yeah, that was a while ago, back when Wilkes was saying that V-drive tunnels don't work.......you can't get them to air out.
Now I hear he's rigging them. :D
What do you want to know?
502 Chevy, Lunati solid roller, 6-71, 10 pounds boost, 175 of nitrous, pump gas, 16 pitch prop, 1.48 gears. The boat is insured, so I'm not sure I want to talk about performance on a public forum. :frown:
Goes pretty good, but not as fast as "fastsanger". Engine was built as an "endurance" motor, something that you can run around all day. Hasn't had a teardown for 7 years.
We'll get "Unchained" up to speed, and in a couple of years that Eliminator will leave me in the dust!
Cheers
Sounds like a really nice ride! Makes me want to off my jet & find a v-drive...
:rolleyes: :)

[Unchained]

Sounds like a really nice ride! Makes me want to off my jet & find a v-drive... :rolleyes: :)
Warp Factor is a real nice ride and is a usable boat too. Not a trailer queen at all. I was real impressed when I drove it a few years ago. Then Dave took me for a ride and I was grabbing at the dashboard hanging on for dear life. It just kept on pulling. I knew at that point that I would have to get a 21' tunnel V drive someday.
But I've got a long ways to go before I would consider offing the jet.
It's still too much fun.
It's hard for me to believe that the Daytona 21' hull could accellerate like the
Stealth 19' jet but from FastSangars reports it must be possible.
I thought the jet took a lot of setup work.
The Vdrive is going to take at least as much.

[Marty Gras]

"7200, 32 gears and what pitch prop???

[Unchained]

This boat is really performing nice now.
I swapped in 32% OD gears that I got from Beaverfab and that was what it really needed to work with the 11" prop. The motor is in it's power band better. The gears don't seem too tall at all.
I still don't have a good handle ( :cool: ) on the cav plate setting though.
While just cruising at 3000 rpm / 40 mph is seems to like the plate up a notch from straight out.
Under WOT it needs to be down a few notches otherwise the bow gets real high and wants to wander around some.
The trans is real nice on this. You can floor it from a dead stop in 2nd and just as it rolls over on plane hit 3rd. It pulls real good for the mild motor in there.
This boat goes over other boats wakes and heavy chop real smooth. I think the lift from the prop keeps the stern up and the bow doesn't want to slap up and down.
I can see where this could use a lot more gear with the turbo motor in it.
What's the biggest gear ratio that will fit with out cutting the case?
Is it better to go with a 17 pitch prop to keep the gear ratio down ?
This boat has a 12 degree Casale box in it.
There are two U joints on the input shaft. Can the motor be mounted a little lower and get 1 degree out of each U joint or is that going to want to
vibrate ?
Thanks for any input.

[Marty Gras]

I'm very happy that you are GOING FORWARD with your project!!! I still must ask, what prop will run 135 MPH at 7200RPMs with 32% gears??? I want to purchase one, or two or MORE! Please respond!!!

[Unchained]

I'm very happy that you are GOING FORWARD with your project!!! I still must ask, what prop will run 135 MPH at 7200RPMs with 32% gears??? I want to purchase one, or two or MORE! Please respond!!!
I don't think Shawn visits here often.
He told me he had a billet Joey Grose 2 blade prop made.

[Marty Gras]

Thanks! I'll wait 'till he does.

[Weaverman]

Unchained - The pic you posted of your (very nice) boat up at Hardy...I know the place well! When I was a kid we used to have to crawl halfway up that hill where your boat is parked to pull a cable which rang a bell. The "old man" would come down and sell you some fuel from the Leonard refinery in nearby Alma. That was back before that bridge was made of concrete; it was called the Davis bridge or the "Iron Bridge". I built my first hydro when I was 13 and ran it all the way from Big Bend to that bridge, carrying extra fuel in a can for the old Merc Hurricane. Hope to see you on the water this summer! I'll be the guy lumbering along in brown/white Spectra 20.
Great stuff.

[DetroitJim]

Mark:
I know you can run 48's without hitting water on a 10 degree, 12 degree should be the same. I'm pretty sure 54's will hit. I'd try a 17 pitch before gearing that high.

[HM]

I still must ask, what prop will run 135 MPH at 7200RPMs with 32% gears???
With no slip: a 15" pitch
With 10% slip: 16.7
with 15% slip: 17.65
with 20% slip: 18.75

[fastsanger]

"7200, 32 gears and what pitch prop???
i did it with a 11-1/2 17 stellings and i now have a billet joey grose prop with a lot more front bite not sure the size never asked it just kicks a** they are $2100.00 but well worth the coin (209)368-8308 ask for joey grose (buy 10 of them)

[VD CRUISER]

My experience has been that 37% gears are about as high as you can go without the top gear hitting the case.

[Marty Gras]

So you are running aprox. 88%? Wow, that's really great! That's almost as good as a three blade!

[Snowboat]

You can run 48's but have to mill a portion of the water jacket. It will still hold a gasket.

[Warp Factor]

Casale has a raised water jacket box that I'm pretty sure will take 60s. I've run 54s in mine.
I've been told you can run as much as 7 degrees in U-joints without a problem, and that you don't want to run less than 3 degrees, because the needle bearings will roll through a limited area, not maintain a proper lubrication film and cause accelerated wear. Probably doesn't matter though with the limited hours we put on our boats compared to a car.
Driveshaft vibration shouldn't be an issue as long as you get a dead-on balance and have both U-joints at the same angle in opposite directions, as in one 5 degrees up, and the other 5 degrees down.
When power goes through one angled U-joint, the speed on the other side is no longer constant. It speeds up and slows down at different places in the rotation. The second U-joint angled an equal amount in the other direction returns this to a constant speed.
Constant Velocity joints like those typically used on front drive cars (CV joints) behave differently.

[Unchained]

Well now it's probably been the 20th time out.
I really tested this boat tough yesterday.
I'm really amazed at the rough water handling capability.
With four people aboard, going 60 + mph through up to 2' rollers and choppy water. The handling was incredible. I've never seen a boat handle rough water like this.
Of course the prop stays hooked up while hopping through the chop. That's something I'm really not used to from being a jetboater for so long.
My recommendation to someone looking for a V-drive boat.
If you can find one of these 21' tunnels, buy it.