Round Two - Havasu Marina

[LakeRacer]

Ok, I was expecting a fight and we got it.
As many of you are aware the state looked into the problem, notified the marina, had some correspondence with the marina, and made a judgement that the State Land Dept. can't force the marina to do anything because it's a law enforcement issue. I don't believe the State investigated the issue thoroughly enough.
Round Three is coming up.
I've found an attorney and will be coming up with a game plan shortly. For those of you who want to donate, I'm working on setting up an account for you to send you donations too.
As for the game plan, I'll keep you updated as much as possible. But bear in mind that with any legal action I won't be able to tell you much. Don't want to tip our hand to the marina.
Stay tuned.......

[FRENCHIE]

thanx for the updates and info!!! ;)

[That Guy]

Ok, I was expecting a fight and we got it.
As many of you are aware the state looked into the problem, notified the marina, had some correspondence with the marina, and made a judgement that the State Land Dept. can't force the marina to do anything because it's a law enforcement issue. I don't believe the State investigated the issue thoroughly enough.
Round Three is coming up.
I've found an attorney and will be coming up with a game plan shortly. For those of you who want to donate, I'm working on setting up an account for you to send you donations too.
As for the game plan, I'll keep you updated as much as possible. But bear in mind that with any legal action I won't be able to tell you much. Don't want to tip our hand to the marina.
Stay tuned.......
Art, thanks again.

[race1jeep]

I recently wrote the state a letter informing them the marina would not let me launch my boat there anymore. DB reading 87.9 at 10 feet. The state sent me a response back, along with the letter that the marina wrote to the state mentioning it was for the safety of the marina staff.
The letter in no way mentioned the marina set their owns rules on how to measure boat nosie. I am legal at the 50 foot measurment, but not at the 10 foot measurement the marina is measuring.
I have a copy of both the state letter, and the letter the marina sent to the state if you need it.
Let me know how I can be of assistance on this issue if needed since I live here in Havasu.

[Wally_Gator]

This is beginning to sound like it can be a class action suit.
Sounds to me that a class of people are being affected by the actions of
the marina staff.

[H20Advantage]

The state sent me a response back, along with the letter that the marina wrote to the state mentioning it was for the safety of the marina staff.
Should the Lake Havasu Municipal Airport shut down only for gliders due to the noise the airplane engines make and the danger to their employees? :hammerhea
I call bullshit. :burningm:

[BoatPI]

If the Marina's claim is noise protection, then it seems that they are a bit out of wack here. Most states have OSHA departments. It the preponsibility of the employer to provide the vecessary safety equipment for their employees. Do ramp workers at airports use head worn noise muffs, do police offciers wear body armor, do plant workers use ear plugs, do drag racing crews wear ear muffs, do dentists and other health care professionals wear eye and hand protection?? Th at arguement does not hold lake water. Add in the distance an employee's work area is from the noise... Do LHCPD officer's working the noisy channel wear ear protection with 1,000 boats present? Thank about it. DAH.

[welk2party]

Thanks for all your efforts Art. :idea:

[That Guy]

If the Marina's claim is noise protection, then it seems that they are a bit out of wack here. Most states have OSHA departments. It the preponsibility of the employer to provide the vecessary safety equipment for their employees. Do ramp workers at airports use head worn noise muffs, do police offciers wear body armor, do plant workers use ear plugs, do drag racing crews wear ear muffs, do dentists and other health care professionals wear eye and hand protection?? Th at arguement does not hold lake water. Add in the distance an employee's work area is from the noise... Do LHCPD officer's working the noisy channel wear ear protection with 1,000 boats present? Thank about it. DAH.
Boat PI is right and I think some letters to Sandra demonstrating these examples would be helpful. Why would a concessionnaire on leased state land have the right to deny the very thing they received the lease to do....? Write, Write, Write.....This is becoming an issue for the state....

[Essex502]

I have written my letter to Sandra and it'll be in the mail today. This is total B.S. The OSHA excuse (see letter link in Havasu Noise thread) is just another attempt to distract the State from the real issue here - the Marina MUST be held accountable for their violation of the concessionaire contract.
Art...you know I'm with you. Let me know where my first $200 goes.

[Magic34]

I'll give cash when you get it set up. Thanks!!

[Essex502]

I talked to my dad last night after he had recieved his e-mail for the upcoming schiada regatta this weekend, in the e-mail jwp informs partisipants to have those muffs installed if launching from the marina, the "marina" has warned jwp that they will be checking as usual. here is my question, they are not a state, local, law enforcement agency, how can they perform and deny boaters use of the lake due to length or boat noise, they are not trained or certified or recognized by anyone, except themselves. the state is passing the buck as i see it in the letter back!!!!!!! :crossx:
The bottom line is....they can't. The contract clearly states they must allow all boats to launch except for good cause...this wouldn't be defined as good cause in my book since they have been allowing the same boats to launch for years. Selective enforcement is typical of the Marina. Also, remember..."We don't have to abide by state law..we have our own laws here in the Marina"...paraphased by the so-called manager that ejected another boater.

[Mandelon]

Report them to OSHA. If they want to use that as an excuse, get an inspector in there to measure it. OSHA won't limit the boats, but if its too loud there, then OSHA will make the employees wear those big ear muffs......all day.....in 114* heat......nice. Oh, and OSHA would fine the marina if they don't comply. :devil: :coffeycup

[91nordic29]

Report them to OSHA. If they want to use that as an excuse, get an inspector in there to measure it. OSHA won't limit the boats, but if its too loud there, then OSHA will make the employees wear those big ear muffs......all day.....in 114* heat......nice. Oh, and OSHA would fine the marina if they don't comply. :devil: :coffeycup
that was my first thought :D

[ratso]

OSHA would definitely give them a good Fuc#ing... :D

[BajaMike]

It may also help to complain to the Lake Havasu City Council. Let them know that many boaters are just going elsewhere, like Parker, Laughlin, and Lake Mojave (Almost Dam Run!), costing the local merchants a lot of money and the city sales tax revenue.
It would be good to have the local merchants and city council complaining to the state.
:cool:

[shueman]

It may also help to complain to the Lake Havasu City Council. Let them know that many boaters are just going elsewhere, like Parker, Laughlin, and Lake Mojave (Almost Dam Run!), costing the local merchants a lot of money and the city sales tax revenue.
My thoughts are along the same lines with the LHC Council. If your a resident, I believe that you can ask to be on their agenda.

[SHAKE-YO-AZZ]

I need to order my Tritoon

[Havasu Cig]

Thanks for the hard work Art. Let us know when the account is set up.
I am not an attorney but I wonder if the State could also be named in a lawsuit for failing to act???

[Boatcop]

My thoughts are along the same lines with the LHC Council. If your a resident, I believe that you can ask to be on their agenda.
All public meetings in Arizona have a "Call to the Public", where citizens can bring up any relevant subject they like. There is a time limit set for the person making the "call", usually 5 minutes, and the Council (or whatever body is meeting) cannot discuss or act on the subject, except to direct that it be placed on a later meeting Agenda.
A proper forum for this subject would be, in addition to the City Council, the Mohave County Board of Supervisors meeting, and Arizona State Parks Board meetings.
You don't need to be on the Agenda to speak, or even make advance notification that you will be speaking, or what subject you'll be speaking on, and your comments will be part of the public record.

[shueman]

All public meetings in Arizona have a "Call to the Public", where citizens can bring up any relevant subject they like. There is a time limit set for the person making the "call", usually 5 minutes, and the Council (or whatever body is meeting) cannot discuss or act on the subject, except to direct that it be placed on a later meeting Agenda.
A proper forum for this subject would be, in addition to the City Council, the Mohave County Board of Supervisors meeting, and Arizona State Parks Board meetings.
You don't need to be on the Agenda to speak, or even make advance notification that you will be speaking, or what subject you'll be speaking on, and your comments will be part of the public record.
Alan, thanks for the clarification....!!!

[C-2]

OSHA would definitely give them a good Fuc#ing... :D
That's what I'm thinking too. Get OSHA out there. Every employer wants OSHA sniffing around, dont they?

[C-2]

And the state's initial response is not surprising. They seemed to have missed the issue entirely, thanks to the smoke and mirrors response from LHM.
But at least now there is a name associated with their response, and it's time to climb the ladder from there.

[TCHB]

Lake Havasu Marina Employees need OSHA
Lake Havasu needs to do a noise study that is based on sound level and time spent in the area.
Lake Havasu Marina needs to train its employees on recognition of loud noises.
Lake Havasu Marina needs to post signs in high noise areas.
Lake Havas Marina needs to test its employees hearing every year.
.

[That Guy]

And the state's initial response is not surprising. They seemed to have missed the issue entirely, thanks to the smoke and mirrors response from LHM.
But at least now there is a name associated with their response, and it's time to climb the ladder from there.
OK C-2 how do we get OSHA out here?....You are exactly right, the Marina missed the entire issue with Jeff's B ull s hi t response. Lets all climb this ladder together as C-2 suggests...thanks for your help.

[Havasu4me]

OK C-2 how do we get OSHA out here?....You are exactly right, the Marina missed the entire issue with Jeff's B ull s hi t response. Lets all climb this ladder together as C-2 suggests...thanks for your help.
When I was in the Navy (1989), we also had a few noise problems. Our smallboats (29 feet) had twin diesels and they were loud. One day we had some OSHA people out to make sure we were up to par, as far as our hearing safety program. They had decibal meeters and they said that the noise level of our boats were too high. They said that we needed to wear ear plugs when we were underway. Ummm, NO. Trying to patrol, communicate with the crew, and talk on the radio with ear plugs??? Not going to happen. The Navy spent a fortune fixing their boats, to quiet them down. At least 2 to 3 thousand dollars per boat. The final conclusion was that communication is far too important, to sacrafice it by wearing earplugs.
In my opinion, we don't want OSHA anywhere near the marina. I think that they could very easily back the marina. If that happens, the battle is over.
Just my lonely opinion.
Steve

[That Guy]

When I was in the Navy (1989), we also had a few noise problems. Our smallboats (29 feet) had twin diesels and they were loud. One day we had some OSHA people out to make sure we were up to par, as far as our hearing safety program. They had decibal meeters and they said that the noise level of our boats were too high. They said that we needed to wear ear plugs when we were underway. Ummm, NO. Trying to patrol, communicate with the crew, and talk on the radio with ear plugs??? Not going to happen. The Navy spent a fortune fixing their boats, to quiet them down. At least 2 to 3 thousand dollars per boat. The final conclusion was that communication is far too important, to sacrafice it by wearing earplugs.
In my opinion, we don't want OSHA anywhere near the marina. I think that they could very easily back the marina. If that happens, the battle is over.
Just my lonely opinion.
Steve
Nice post and makes a lot of sense.....

[Havasu_Dreamin]

It may also help to complain to the Lake Havasu City Council. Let them know that many boaters are just going elsewhere, like Parker, Laughlin, and Lake Mojave (Almost Dam Run!), costing the local merchants a lot of money and the city sales tax revenue.
It would be good to have the local merchants and city council complaining to the state.
:cool:
I wrote a letter to every memeber of the Lake Havasu City Council and to the Mohave County Superviosr that represents Lake Havasu City. As of now, I have yet to even receive some BS form-letter that even acknowledges receipt of my letter(s). I know I'm not a full-time resident of Lake Havasu City or Mohave County, but I pay property taxes and contribute more to the economy, over the course of 12 months, than someone that comes in and rents a hotel or condo.

[That Guy]

I wrote a letter to every memeber of the Lake Havasu City Council and to the Mohave County Superviosr that represents Lake Havasu City. As of now, I have yet to even receive some BS form-letter that even acknowledges receipt of my letter(s). I know I'm not a full-time resident of Lake Havasu City or Mohave County, but I pay property taxes and contribute more to the economy, over the course of 12 months, than someone that comes in and rents a hotel or condo.
Same with us...haven't heard a thing. Unfortunately for the Marina, we are a group who doesn't like to lose and we will fight for what is right......

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Same with us...haven't heard a thing. Unfortunately for the Marina, we are a group who doesn't like to lose and we will fight for what is right......
Yep. That's the funny thing in all of this. THe letter to the state talks about personal attacks against marina employees, none of my letters, nor any of my posts on the subject, have "attacked" anyone at all. All we want is to be treated equally and fairly and held to the law, nothing more, nothing less. Now, testing one boat at 89 dbs and saying you're ok to launch and not banning them while telling someone who tested at 87 dbs that you're too loud, put the boat back on the trailer, and you're banned, where is the fairness/equality in that?

[Essex502]

All public meetings in Arizona have a "Call to the Public", where citizens can bring up any relevant subject they like. There is a time limit set for the person making the "call", usually 5 minutes, and the Council (or whatever body is meeting) cannot discuss or act on the subject, except to direct that it be placed on a later meeting Agenda.
A proper forum for this subject would be, in addition to the City Council, the Mohave County Board of Supervisors meeting, and Arizona State Parks Board meetings.
You don't need to be on the Agenda to speak, or even make advance notification that you will be speaking, or what subject you'll be speaking on, and your comments will be part of the public record.
Thanks Alan for the comment and info..Does the speaker have to be a resident in order to comment of can those of us, like myself, who own property in AZ speak before these august bodies?

[C-2]

When I was in the Navy (1989), we also had a few noise problems. Our smallboats (29 feet) had twin diesels and they were loud. One day we had some OSHA people out to make sure we were up to par, as far as our hearing safety program. They had decibal meeters and they said that the noise level of our boats were too high. They said that we needed to wear ear plugs when we were underway. Ummm, NO. Trying to patrol, communicate with the crew, and talk on the radio with ear plugs??? Not going to happen. The Navy spent a fortune fixing their boats, to quiet them down. At least 2 to 3 thousand dollars per boat. The final conclusion was that communication is far too important, to sacrafice it by wearing earplugs.
In my opinion, we don't want OSHA anywhere near the marina. I think that they could very easily back the marina. If that happens, the battle is over.
Just my lonely opinion.
Steve
Agreed until further research has been completed. Thanks for the insight.

[Essex502]

When I was in the Navy (1989), we also had a few noise problems. Our smallboats (29 feet) had twin diesels and they were loud. One day we had some OSHA people out to make sure we were up to par, as far as our hearing safety program. They had decibal meeters and they said that the noise level of our boats were too high. They said that we needed to wear ear plugs when we were underway. Ummm, NO. Trying to patrol, communicate with the crew, and talk on the radio with ear plugs??? Not going to happen. The Navy spent a fortune fixing their boats, to quiet them down. At least 2 to 3 thousand dollars per boat. The final conclusion was that communication is far too important, to sacrafice it by wearing earplugs.
In my opinion, we don't want OSHA anywhere near the marina. I think that they could very easily back the marina. If that happens, the battle is over.
Just my lonely opinion.
Steve
Good point but we use disposable earplugs that don't seem to limit conversation but do reduce the loud noises dramatically here at the plant where I work. There are also ear muffs I've used at the shooting range that don't interfere with conversation too much either.
I think OSHA's requirements are a weighted average over an 8 hour day from what I've read. The OSHA requirements detail the mitigation and training as well as the monitoring procedure that has probably been ignored by the Marina's management since they built it.
I am not sure that the OSHA involvement would be bad at all.

[KrazyKa]

Those who were around for the "Pre-Rounds" of this did write letters to the City Council, Mayor and Board of Tourism. Not much, if any, response was recieved. Even if you own property in Havasu, you have zero clout without a vote.
One thing that has stuck with me while watching television this summer in Havasu is how much LHC wants property owners to elect to have thier property tax dollars sent directly to LHC schools. They had tons of commercials this summer asking LHC "residents" to make that election on thier tax forms. This is the one area many of us non-voter property owners have some influence in. We might want to look at exploiting this.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Those who were around for the "Pre-Rounds" of this did write letters to the City Council, Mayor and Board of Tourism. Not much, if any, response was recieved. Even if you own property in Havasu, you have zero clout without a vote.
One thing that has stuck with me while watching television this summer in Havasu is how much LHC wants property owners to elect to have thier property tax dollars sent directly to LHC schools. They had tons of commercials this summer asking LHC "residents" to make that election on thier tax forms. This is the one area many of us non-voter property owners have some influence in. We might want to look at exploiting this.
To be honest, part of me agress with this as it would possibly get the City to pay more attention to us. However, I really don't want to do that, withhold from the school district, as that only hurts the kids and they have played no part in what the Marina is doing. Lake Havasu is my town as well, sure I may not be able to vote there, but I treat as it is my hometown.