PDA

View Full Version : RE: The Big Bowl ShootOut



Slow Boat 001
06-08-2001, 09:10 PM
Subject: Re: The Big Bowl Shootout
That article was written by Bob Zahner., He sells Ledgend and Berkeley parts. Take him to the drag races and make him prove it like we do. Do you think we would run something that was slower than we could have?
However if you don't have much power, the Berkeley bowl works better because it makes more bowl pressure. But when you get power, you build too much bowl pressure and you'll start blowing out bowl and wedge gaskets.
Also, the aggressor bowl works best with an aggressor impeller. The aggressor handles so much more water that you usually have to open up the nozzle. They didn't do that.
Conclusion;100 to 400 hp---Berkeley
400 to 600 hp--American Turbine-Dominator-Aggressor 11 vein
600 to 1000 hp Aggressor 9 vein bowl
1000 hp up Aggressor 7 vein bowl
Which Aggressor bowl did they use?
Your guess is as good as mine.
Read`em and weep you asked for it and you got it.. Dont ask where this came from, it just came from the races ok ! www.worthingtonmotorsports.nasha.com (http://www.worthingtonmotorsports.nasha.com)

ChetCapoli
06-11-2001, 07:08 PM
You the man slowboat!
I like guys who tell it like they see it! Actually i think that test was done by a normal lake guy who just wanted to do some testing at the time. Just so happens the intake setup was done by MPD,(The one who says berkeley has the best bowl right boys?) Maybe that's why the berk did the best!Then again, you dont win to many races spining 5000rpm! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

HBjet
06-11-2001, 08:54 PM
Chet, What made you switch from your berkeley bowl to the Aggressor on your lake boat and what difference did you notice? Also, can you tell us what kind of boat you have and power your using, if it's similar to mine and the results are that noticable, then I'm sold...
HBjet
PS. who does your pump work and how many boats do they sponser?
Thanks

ChetCapoli
06-13-2001, 12:25 AM
Hey HBJet,
I have a 18' Rally sport v bottom(delta pad) and i run a 522chev (estimate 650hp @ 6400rpm on pump gas)with a berk pump,factory berk JR (6deg) intake with shoe, aggressor "b" impeller, 9vien bowl with droop,wedge, and no place diverter. Best run was 80.2gps at 5700 with hockey stick hook in the bottom.(working on that as we speak). This year i'm going to a stock intake (4deg) with shoe and staightening the bottom and using a diverter. Been told to expect gains of at least 5 to 7mph,quite possibly 10mph(hopefully). If i can spin it up to 6400 maybe more? Who knows. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Did you read that Jet tech article a few years back about bowls? GS stated he saw gains of 2 to 4 tenths and up to 7mph in the quarter with the aggressor bowl/impellers if i remember correctly.
I never really got a good baseline with a berk bowl because my pump(everything) was really messed up when i got the boat(maybe i should try it for the record eh?) I did though, put them side by side before i made my choice and studied them carefully....as i said before it's like a stock chevy HP head and a dart head, you can see the difference. As slowboat mentioned..if you got a stocker(100 to 400hp, under 5000rpms) maybe you wont notice(just like a dart head on a stock BBC)..but if you put the power to it and want to go fast(it's what we all want right?)aggressor is the way to go.
as far as pump work, i do my own, i'm a hands on kinda guy who builds motors for a living. Most of what i learned about a jet though was from the local jet guy here in NY. (Ted, C.B.M.,(877)JET PUMP)
Chet

HBjet
06-13-2001, 09:49 PM
Chet, sounds like a good setup. I would think your top speed would of been a little higher though, but as you said, the hook is pretty bad.
I could see you getting a noticable difference when changing the bowls out if you had a messed up berk to begin with, I probably would of done the same thing. I'm sure I read the article GS did, but I'm going to read it again. (I have to dig through my old Hot Boats, oldest one I have is from 1989, volume XI, Number 9) That is my favorite issue, it features 3 California Performance jet boats, back when Hot Boat was for Hot Boats like all of ours. They should rename the mag "Hot $50,000+ Boat"
HBjet
Check out my site, I just updated it.
http://home.socal.rr.com/boatbutts/boat.html
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited June 13, 2001).]

MellowYelloW
06-13-2001, 09:55 PM
hey hb jet...are you gonna be at echo this weekend...also who did your interior and how much was it...i need to have mine done badly. i will be at riverland this weekend.
brian

HBjet
06-14-2001, 07:46 PM
Mellow, I won't be at the river this weekend, but I'll be there next. I think RiverDave is going to be there next weekend too. I must have a good digital camera, becuase I need to replace my interior over the winter. This will be it's last summer like this. I'm not sure where I'm going to go, but most shops can do boats. I've had friends do a chair at a time over the winter, so it's easier on their wallet. I might take my boat to Stich Craft. They do custom interiors for cars and trucks. I had my dually done there a long time ago, and I'm still very pleased. Cost a lot though...
Good luck on your pump, and interior. Have a good weekend and give us a report on how it was out there. Last weekend, there was a Magic and Sleek regatta, so there was a lot of BIG boats, very choppy.
HBjet

HBjet
06-14-2001, 07:59 PM
Slow Boat 001, is that your "Jet Hydro"? I was wondering, what speed are you getting out of that setup? I didn't see it posted on your website. I've never seen a setup like that racing, and I'm a bit curious. I know prop v-driven hydros run with their tail in the air keeping the sponsons in the water. They run very well and I was just wondering how well your boat handles since the tail needs to be in the water. Thanks!

Slow Boat 001
06-15-2001, 10:22 PM
He He Ha Ha
[This message has been edited by Slow Boat 001 (edited January 29, 2002).]

Jim
06-16-2001, 08:54 AM
Slowboat this sunkist is a Hondo jet hydro,they came out in the seventies, Sanger had one first, ran it in blown fuel jet,it ran 130's but dangerous the boat, name was royal flush. the faster you go is this boat the more the front end comes down at about 90 it wants to submarine. the hull is the same as the prop hydro with a pod underneath for the jet, I would personaly look for a sunkist gullwing 18ft, you'll have more fun and go faster. Jim

Slow Boat 001
06-16-2001, 02:40 PM
No the Sunkist is a Sunkist and the Hydro is a Hondo. The way we have this boat set up the nose will NEVER plow.We have ran it in the ??+mph range and never had any problems at all with a plow in the nose but we had a problem with the tail wanting to come around. This hull in Not the same as a prop hydro or any other hydro. Sunkist never made a jet hydro as far as I know? The Sunkist Tunnel hull boats are not very good race boats as they run to deep in the water. They plow the tail! To make a Jet run fast, it needs to run as flat as it can with out the nose being in the water. Go get a Sunkist and lets race!!
www.worthingtonmotorsports.nasha.com (http://www.worthingtonmotorsports.nasha.com)
[This message has been edited by Slow Boat 001 (edited January 29, 2002).]

Jim
06-16-2001, 10:04 PM
Slowboat. I know what it takes to go fast, I run the 8.50 class at 121mph 480cu in. no blower on gas, no nos. berk, calif perf. tunnel, high points mod jet or runner up the last 8 years. just trying to help Jim

HBjet
06-16-2001, 10:50 PM
Slow Boat, why did you decide to go with a Hydro jet and not a Hydro prop setup. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a prop driven hydro be faster once you reach and pass 100 mph? Since a Prop hydro would have a lot less in the water. Maybe I'm wrong?
Jim, I've seen your boat run and it is very fast! Let me ask you something on the topic, what bowl do you see most at the IHBA or NJBA races?
Thanks, HBjet

Slow Boat 001
06-16-2001, 11:11 PM
Jim I didnt mean to up set you. Sounds like you been there done that.I have a friend that has a Sunkist Jet Tunnel that runs in the 9.0`s at 119. By the end of this year (I) will put his boat on the trailer. I not to far behind him now. I just want to do it as safe as I can. Who knows maybe next year I will have it in the 8.`s and we will get to line up.(I mean that in a good way).......
HBjet you ask why... well it`s because no one has ever mastered a jet hydro open boat and I`m going to take this boat as far as it will go. A lot of racers told me not to get this boat but they all have mud in there eyes now as we have gone past the point they said it would go. Every day I get some one that say it wont work then they see it run, they say How did you do that.That why. Yes I could put my motor in a prop hydro and go faster, but its not about going faster in a boat that any one can bulid. It`s about doing what they say Cant Be Done. www.worthingtonmotorsports.nasha.com (http://www.worthingtonmotorsports.nasha.com)
[This message has been edited by Slow Boat 001 (edited June 17, 2001).]

ChetCapoli
06-17-2001, 04:40 AM
Hats off to you slowboat!
Having an open mind and trying things people say wont work is the way to be.
Chet

Slow Boat 001
06-17-2001, 11:20 AM
Thanks Chet . for every person that tells me it wont fly there is 10 people saying go for it, you can do it.Hell look at the twin prop TF HYDRO`s they got a full pass in last month 4.55 now for a boat that most said wont fly, they made it fly. www.worthingtonmotorsports.nasha.com (http://www.worthingtonmotorsports.nasha.com)
[This message has been edited by Slow Boat 001 (edited June 17, 2001).]

sdba069
06-17-2001, 03:53 PM
Hi Slowboat...We worked on one of those jet hydro's back in the early 80's and never could make it run.It always wanted to do everything you don't want a jet boat to do.Even if it were capable of 100+,I don't think I would want to take it there.Not trying to say you can't do it and more power to you if you can.Now as far as the bowl deal goes,I ran Dominator stuff for years.I tried Berkeley bowls with some other combinations a time or two and honestly saw little or no difference.I started playing with nozzle bushings,going from 3" to 3.125" with the Dominator and Berkeley bowls and was not seeing as much change as I thought I should see.Dave sent me a 7 and 9 vane bowl to try.I'm running the 7 vane now and a nozzle bushing change now makes a noticable difference.I believe it was all because the other bowls were choking the flow before it ever got to the nozzle.I run a 500# Mirage tunnel with a 476 c.i. Chevy.It makes 787hp at 6900 rpm.I've run a best of 9.26@ 113 mph.I run a Papp intake at 5 degrees,Dominator suction housing,Aggressor "C" impeller,Dominator Snoot and SS nozzle.The boat has a drop keel,open loader,and seems to run best with a 3.080 nozzle.I go through the lights with about 45# of bowl pressure with the shoe at .200 up and usually turn about 6800 RPM.Keep in mind that is in 2500' to 3000'air on SDBA clocks.You can bet money that ain't Bakersfield.Keep in mind also that because of the more aggressive leading edge on the Aggressor impeller that a "C" Aggressor would be more comparable to a "B" Berkeley/Dominator impeller.As much as Dave Jones reminds me of a used car salesman,pretty much everything he has told me as been true for the most part.And that's all I got to say about that.

ChetCapoli
06-17-2001, 09:07 PM
Hey sdba069,
I noticed you run the papp intake...i see alot of guys run that, what makes it so special if you dont mind tellin? Aggressor makes a 5 degree intake also..do you know if there is any difference?
thanks in advance---chet

sdba069
06-18-2001, 06:59 AM
Chet....Haven't seen the Aggressor low profile intake,but would guess it to be just like Papp's,since Papp seems to have a lot of input at Aggressor.As far as my set-up,the low profile works much better than the standard 3.5 degree intake on a drop keel boat.Because it lowers the pump in relation to keel it seems to provide more stern lift.That's my thought on why it works in my application.I said in my earlier post that Dave sent 7 and 9 vane bowls,I meant 9 and 11 vane bowls.I'm running the 9 vane.

ChetCapoli
06-18-2001, 06:11 PM
Thanks for the info sdba. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

Slow Boat 001
06-26-2001, 08:13 PM
SDBA069 Are you going to be at Pairs or
OK City this year?

Blown509Liberator
06-27-2001, 07:57 AM
Ok I have to put my $.02 in here. Yes I ran the Test , Berk Vs AMT Vs. Aggr. Yes the aggressor did run the slowest. Chet, Like you said I am just calling like I saw it. You also claimed you had problems with the way I ran the test. Speak up lets hear it. I ran them all the same. Motor, Shoe, Ride plate angle, impeller and loader set up all stayed the same. Reason I did the test? I just wanted the fastest set up on my boat that is all. Teddy (CBM- Very nice guy...one of the good guy here) sold me the Bowl and gave me a A impeller to test also. Same thing, loss in speed over the Berk. And no gain in speed with Aggr. bowl over the legend impeller. So we will see now. The old motor was a 502/502 in a 21’ tunnel hull. Now we have installed a 850 hp blown 509. I will run the bowls again. I will not change the impeller for this test eather. Again it will be a Legend SS race prepped unit. As for winning races at 5000 rpms? All I can say is that the set up pushed my 21’ to just a “c” hair short of the 80mph mark.
here is a link to what i found during the test
move that link to http://nothinbutjets.homestead.com/BBSO.html
[This message has been edited by Blown509Liberator (edited June 27, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Blown509Liberator (edited July 17, 2001).]

rstover1
06-27-2001, 09:41 AM
Hey slow boat when are the okc races and where I live in okc. Not that I could enter my tx lake boat but I'd like to watch you run.
[This message has been edited by rstover1 (edited June 27, 2001).]

Slow Boat 001
06-29-2001, 04:33 PM
509:: when you do a test you cant keep everything the same. the only thing that you want to keep the same is the motor tune.You have to tune the pump and the boat setup for each pump as there are no 2 pumps a like.To do a good test it takes a lot of time to find the peek of each pump.you should try an (a) and a (b) in them too, not a (c). A (c) is for a small block`s or low HP motors.Most big blocks do best with a (b) 800HP use an (a) 1000 hp use a (aa)
The OK City race is August 4 & 5

ULTRA28
06-29-2001, 09:27 PM
I usually try to stay out of these types of conversations ( kind of like when people talk politics and abortion, just not good for someone in sales to take sides), but 509 did his experiment the exact way a scientific experiment should be done, apples to apples, yes he could have done some impellar, shoe, nozzle, etc changes, but it was his experiment and nobody was paying him to do it. I don't see anybody else offering to do one. 509 isn't trying to sell anything, he doesn't work at MPD, he is just letting us know his findings on his set up. I'm curious slowboat, to how you have come to the conclusion that a certain horsepower determines the cut on an impellar? I'm not trying to say anything by this, just wondering. I by all means do not know everything about jets, I've built a few, hell I even have one that went through the lights at 137( berk by MPD, miersh intake, bennet bottom ), but I would never come in here claiming to know more than you or Chet, you guys have a lot more answers than I could ever come up with.
[This message has been edited by ULTRA28 (edited June 30, 2001).]

ChetCapoli
06-29-2001, 10:46 PM
I get your point mr ultra28..understood. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Look at it this way...you didnt run 137mph at 5000rpm did you? no. Usually somebody does a test,like say hotrod mag with a motor...they run it from one end of the spectrum to the other right? I know 509 isnt hotrod mag but I would think that would have been done to all the bowls to give each one a fair shake, especially if your going to display it all over the internet on your website as a "big bowl shootout". Last i knew a "shootout" was a violent gunfight,in which you would pull out ALL the stops. That didnt seem to be done. My boat doesnt run well at 5000..most guys who race dont win at 5000rpms either correct? From what i gather, most spin their boats at least 6000, maybe even 7000 to win a race. If i didnt know anything and wanted to race and went by this test i would have a berkeley bowl on my boat. Let me ask, would i be cutting myself short? Nobody from what i can tell can answer that..they can sure tell you who to do the work for ya though. That's not what i'm looking for,i'm looking for answers. Where does a do-it-yourself guy go for them?
I have listened to some of these guys not just on this board but other boards for way too long about certain things and i got tired of hearing them over and over again. You might know what i'm talking about sir but if you dont, trust me, it's gotten old, especially for a do-it-yourselfer. Slowboat made this year old bowl test front page news here again. I figured if i added to it maybe ***boat mag would take notice and do something so we can finally see what's the best parts to have. Then we can all keep quiet. Obviously you didnt take to kindly to it, for that you have my apology.
take care--chet

ULTRA28
06-29-2001, 11:20 PM
Chet, thanks for your response. I understand what you are saying and agree that different things work better in different circumstances. I was just making it understood that 509 wasn't paid, nor did he have anything to gain from his experiment other than to find out what works best for him. I wish more people had the time and resources to experiment and post their findings too. I am one that has always been up for trying something new on my boats if I think it will help. We do extensive testing on our boats to find the optimal setup for each of our models and we love to see some results from others that have done similar testing. Not to get too personal Chet, but what are you doing up so late? LOL isn't about 3:00am in NY?

Slow Boat 001
06-30-2001, 08:35 AM
ultra 28 I not try to piss you or anyone off but to just help out a little on this test thing. All I said was to test and test right, takes a lot of set up time to do it right. You just don`t bolt on a pump part and say that is all that one can do. No one payes me to test pumps and most of us can tune our own pumps with out a lot of money. The people that I work with on my pumps have done the testing. On lake boats,race boats and river boats. Now we are doing some testing on my jet hydro and its a lot more than just a bolt on test. If I was to spend the time to bolt these pumps on I would take the time to set it up for peek performance. That is all I was saying. I run all over the Mid West and I want the Best pump as the Best boat & motor so I can win more races.
Who would not want this? That`s is all Im saying .
[This message has been edited by Slow Boat 001 (edited June 30, 2001).]

sdba069
07-03-2001, 08:54 PM
Hello SB001....Sorry haven't been on in a while,been working on the race in Cleburne,Tx on Aug.18 & 19.City Council voted yes on our proposal to obtain the use of the lake there.Now all I need to do is come up with about $20,000 sponsor money.Yes I will be in Paris and OKC,being a board member they kinda expect me to show up from time to time.Now as far as testing goes........I have worked with about every pump combination possible mostly on my Pro Limited Jet and all our testing is done on the race track.That's where you tell how much good your doing with a new part.I gather no reliable information by lake testing much of anything.More power to these guys if they can feel a few hundredths or a couple of MPH.No matter what might have worked best on someone else's ride,the Aggressor bowl and impeller was the fastest and quickest combo I've run.Keep in mind when picking an impeller,if you run a "B" Berkeley you would need to take the Aggressor to a "C" to reach approximately the same RPM,this due to the longer vanes on the Agg. impeller.Even though you use the same cut on the backside ("B"..8.75/6.75)the front of the blades extend further forward on the impeller creating more flow.Works for me and that's all I know.Now for the Liberator guy.afrind of mine with a new 20' Scorpion wit a 572 Chevy and some pretty good pump pieces can barely run 90.Adams(Liberator) put a little bit of keel in the boat to help with stern lift.The engine is a Feustal motor with alum. heads and split Dominators and came off the dyno a lille over 900 hp.It's a beautiful boat,but like most of the other Lib.jets around here it's extremely heavy and will not run to expectations.A lot of those guys show up down here on the river in their "100 mph" Liberators and get there socks blown off by some kid in a 80 mph TX-19.Well,that's enough from me..........

Squirtcha?
07-03-2001, 09:03 PM
Oh my god. I thought we were done with this on that last mess of crap post. Geez you guys now you went and did it. I can't read any more. My head's killin me. I read the first post and a couple replies. It's all a repeat of the mess above. Why bother?

phillyray
07-04-2001, 07:27 AM
Damm,I think someone just poured a bunch of gas on the fire!!!I wana here some more from that guy.

ChetCapoli
07-04-2001, 07:37 PM
i do too. He's just speculating though because it works with his setup and what works for one doesnt work for another...right HB? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

HBjet
07-04-2001, 08:38 PM
Your the expert Chet, remember you have tested every jet boat with every setup which all had the same end result, so you would know that there is only one all mighty setup, and the rest are usless.
Aggressor Bowls are the best! I just hooked one up to my garden hose, and I watered the grass 2 tenths of a second faster today. I also installed one in my shower, and because of the longer veins giving the water a straighter flow, I felt 2 tenths cleaner then with my old shower head. I plan on installing one in that famous coffee machine, I'm hoping my coffee will be brewed 2 tenths faster then my last brew. I can't believe I haven't used these Aggressor bowls sooner. I wonder if I install one in toilet, I could flush all of the crap about Aggressor bowls being the best bowl ever 2 tenths faster?
HBjet

spectras only
07-04-2001, 08:54 PM
HB,install one in your bathroom,and let me know how it works.I seem to have one toilet bowl get plugged up in the main bathroom http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif on a regular bases!

TinMan57
07-04-2001, 09:09 PM
I could use a 900 horse nitrous pressure washer, which bowl would I want to use? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/confused.gif

HBjet
07-04-2001, 11:25 PM
TinMan, believe it or not, I am a pressure washer expert. At my shop, we just conducted a test using every pressure washer on the market, and even some of the first pressure washers that were ever built. Time and time again, the Aggressor bowl can out on top. We are still testing our nitrous equiped models and once I have those results, I will post them, but we all know, Aggressor will be the winner. Hell, I'll just call of the test right now since we are all in agreement http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Spectra, I will let you know how it works once I install one in my toilet. There are a couple things I need to know about your toilet first before I can say the Aggressor is what will work best for you. I need to know the space between the water level and the level of your...well, you know, and then I will need to know the weight of your flush handle and amount of torque you apply when flushing. One last thing, I need to know if you are using 2000 flushes blue or green.
Thanks, I will let you all know what I find out... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
HBjet

ChetCapoli
07-05-2001, 02:25 AM
Hey HeavyBowelsJet!
It's about time you finally came to your senses. I feel so much better now. You should post the proven numbers to make it legit though. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

Blown509Liberator
07-05-2001, 06:04 AM
sdba069
Well I knew it was a heavy boat going into it. I have kids and wanted the extra freeboard in the rear of the boat. My motor is a 509 BowTie with Aluminum Dart pro 1 heads and Cr is 8.6:1 with about 7 psi of boost. I am running a Prepped Legend SS "A" Impeller with a G bowl in a set back Berkeley pump. Shoe is a back cut. We Pop of a 90.9 GPS on some pretty rough water. I had someone say "You cant make a Liberator Run even if you though it out of a plane". Ever look at one? Dave Adams says it is his design. It sure look looks Just like a Daytona bottom. Tunnel depth, size, Center Keel all the same. But 8" more transom and top deck at the back I understood it would add weight. But hey so far 500HP I got 79 mph. 800hp (spinning the 509 at 6000 RPMs is 800 hp with 700FT LB of torque) first run gave me 91 mph Not bad in a 21' "Heavy" hulled, 50Gal fuel, 300 watt stereo, 5 passenger, engine covered, tug. We are far from done here As a racer you now that there is always more to be had from the first run. Right now in shut down it is like a Flat stone skipping over the water so we are playing with the depth of the shoe.
MikeW
[This message has been edited by Blown509Liberator (edited July 05, 2001).]

rivercrazy
07-05-2001, 07:58 AM
You guys are killing me. No need for situps for the next few days.

spectras only
07-05-2001, 08:04 AM
HB, I didn't know these bowls are colour sensitive,better talk to the boss whats her preference[I guess green http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif]