New to Forum- 455 Build Q's

[Jet Boat John]

Hi everyone,
I've been visiting the Forum for a few weeks, learning what I can about this Wriedt Maverick I resently purchased. It's a fairly nice old boat but needs TLC and some updates.
The boat's 455 had been replaced with a 350 olds some time in its past. As a pleasure/ski machine I felt Olds power would be just fine, so I located a smog era ("J" heads) 455. The block and heads have mag'd okay so I'm on to the guts of the engine.
Is mondello's suggestion of machining the .5" wide x .010"-.012" deep notches in the big ends of the rods a must? My searches have turned up little info on this. How many Olds guys run this mod?
I have never owned or built an Olds engine before, so I want to run my build-combo by you guys.
Reading here I learned Olds engines have oil issues, so I purchased the restrictor/cam bearing/oil pump/8 qt. oil pan kit from Mondello. I'm going with KB132 pistons as they are some 85 grams lighter than L2323F's, have a better deck height and a quench area, hoping for 9:1 compression. A few hours in Dyno2000 plugging in cams I've chosen a Comp XE262H, 218/224, .475"/.480" 110 LC. and matching springs. Dyno2000 shows the torque peak @3500 RPM and a very flat HP peak between 4500 RPM and 5000 RPM, I'm planning to run a Holley Street Dominator/3310 carb, and want to keep the water-log exhaust. I suppose the 12-JC-A Berkeley is all stock and contains an "A" impeller.
I'm open to suggestions, I would really like input on the Mondello rod-mod.
Thanks, JBJ

[Back Forty]

Jet Boat John, here is an excellent source for your Olds questions. :)
ROP (http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/index.php)
Also... A friendly warning. Mondello is a sore subject over there.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Hi everyone,
I've been visiting the Forum for a few weeks, learning what I can about this Wriedt Maverick I resently purchased. It's a fairly nice old boat but needs TLC and some updates.
The boat's 455 had been replaced with a 350 olds some time in its past. As a pleasure/ski machine I felt Olds power would be just fine, so I located a smog era ("J" heads) 455. The block and heads have mag'd okay so I'm on to the guts of the engine.
Is mondello's suggestion of machining the .5" wide x .010"-.012" deep notches in the big ends of the rods a must? My searches have turned up little info on this. How many Olds guys run this mod?
I have never owned or built an Olds engine before, so I want to run my build-combo by you guys.
Reading here I learned Olds engines have oil issues, so I purchased the restrictor/cam bearing/oil pump/8 qt. oil pan kit from Mondello. I'm going with KB132 pistons as they are some 85 grams lighter than L2323F's, have a better deck height and a quench area, hoping for 9:1 compression. A few hours in Dyno2000 plugging in cams I've chosen a Comp XE262H, 218/224, .475"/.480" 110 LC. and matching springs. Dyno2000 shows the torque peak @3500 RPM and a very flat HP peak between 4500 RPM and 5000 RPM, I'm planning to run a Holley Street Dominator/3310 carb, and want to keep the water-log exhaust. I suppose the 12-JC-A Berkeley is all stock and contains an "A" impeller.
I'm open to suggestions, I would really like input on the Mondello rod-mod.
Thanks, JBJ
Welcome to the boards;)
First of all, some people will try to convince you to run a ford or chevy. ont listen to them. Run what YOU want to run. There are several guys on here(malcolm,taylorman,myself) that have great running olds motors.They do require a litle bit of special attention to live.The #1 rule I follow is that I keep my RPM'S under 5K.
Here is what I did to my olds and she is a neck snapper;)
Shotpeen and resize rods after they were magged
stock oilpump with the spring stretched
oil restricted pushrods
BEARING CLEARANCES IS A MUST!!!!!!! Set the mains @.0025-.003 and rods @.002-.0025
8-10qt oilpan
compcams extreme marine cam. 230@.50/.490lift/110 lobe(this cam is perfect if you keep the stock rockers an uner 10-1 comp)It is designed for a boat and not a car!
Balance rotating assembly
Arp main and rod bolts(MUST)
These are the major things. Of course i did all the normal stuff your suppose to do on a build up.Try to stay clear from mondello,he will suck your wallet DRY!! :eek: :eek:
396

[travis hathaway]

:chi: JBJ, in response to your question; on the 3rd rebuild, I did the rod mod with a file and feeler guage, also added ARP main cap studs and oil cooler. Prior to that I had done the 10qt oil pan and restrictors in the mains. I am running a Crane 480/496 , I think its 108 lobe center. Stock bore and valve train except springs and retainers reccommended for the cam. G heads and three angle valve job. Holly 750 double pumper (4779) and Torker. This is my third summer (knock on something) and still going. Hope this helps! TRAV

[Jake W2]

Go ahead and run a 460 FORD had to try.No really if you are going to do all that to the motor then rebuild the pump if the imp is good you can do it your self for about 300 bucks.
Jake

[Jet Boat John]

Thanks for the reply's guys!
I took BACK FORTY'S advice and checked out ROP, but couldn't find much on the rod-mod, those guys seem to like .018"-.022" rod side clearance and no mod, but they might be building mainly car engines too? And TRAVIS you seem to feel that your rod-mod has helped (knocking on something with ya).
My machine shop (BMS in Hulbert, OK) knows marine engines, and is hip to marine motor clearances, but I bet their Chevy to Olds ratio is 500/1 and I enjoy researching stuff anyways <smile>.
Since I bought the oil system kit from Mondello with the blueprinted HV oil pump, I didn't know if by restricting oil to the cam and increasing the volume of oil to the crank if the notches in the rods might be required to give the oil a place to go other than forcing it to the top of the motor?
On the Pump, I called Hi-Tech in KS and ordered a few little parts. They told me before I did anything major I needed to run the boat and see how it does (awesome advice) but I need a fresh 455 to really tell. The pump stuff will come.
I am all about Comp cams and looked hard at the 280 Magnum, but felt it was too much cam for the water log exhaust, then I looked at the 268, and it was also suggested by BMS, but I settled on the XE262 as it's a more modern grind, has the same @.050" intake duration as the 268 HighEnergy, but being a dual pattern cam I hope it will aid in exhaust scavaging with the logs.
The main goal of the motor is to provide plenty of lake cruising, water skier pulling grunt thats reliable and long lasting.
Thanks! JBJ

[Ol Yeller]

Welcome to the boards;)
First of all, some people will try to convince you to run a ford or chevy. ont listen to them. Run what YOU want to run. There are several guys on here(malcolm,taylorman,myself) that have great running olds motors.They do require a litle bit of special attention to live.The #1 rule I follow is that I keep my RPM'S under 5K.
Here is what I did to my olds and she is a neck snapper;)
Shotpeen and resize rods after they were magged
stock oilpump with the spring stretched
oil restricted pushrods
BEARING CLEARANCES IS A MUST!!!!!!! Set the mains @.0025-.003 and rods @.002-.0025
8-10qt oilpan
compcams extreme marine cam. 230@.50/.490lift/110 lobe(this cam is perfect if you keep the stock rockers an uner 10-1 comp)It is designed for a boat and not a car!
Balance rotating assembly
Arp main and rod bolts(MUST)
These are the major things. Of course i did all the normal stuff your suppose to do on a build up.Try to stay clear from mondello,he will suck your wallet DRY!! :eek: :eek:
396
Who does 455 restricted push rods besides Mondello's?

[WUTWZAT]

Why build a 455, I think I just saw one on ebay turn key from a boat. Needs a carb and ready to go. A last look it was $750.00 and was located in Lake Havasu City. I remember tagging it to see what the final price was, but reserve was met or none was set.
Jason

[WUTWZAT]

Sorry about the multi posts....
Ebay item # 2495663298
It needs a dip stick tube and a carb to run.
It does have wet logs with the snail shells, a starter and manifold. Looks pretty clean. It is going for $750.00 now no reserve price, no bids yet. And has 1 day and about 14 hours left before its over. Right now its Sat. night around 11pm PST. Hope this helps....... Oh I have nothing to do with this motor, just saw it for sale and passing along the spam trash to another boater.
I was considering buying it just in case I wanted to do another project this winter. Or hold on to it to sell later, but I hate doing that, what a hassle.
Jason

[Taylorman]

Who does 455 restricted push rods besides Mondello's?
Try this guy, he knows his stuff about Olds (http://www.fcrperformance.com/)

[Floored]

remember that the KB( hyper) pistons are a cast piston and the 2323's are forged. Have the crank heat treated and use the best (Clevite) bearings. I have ARP main, rod, and head bolts also. consider using Total Seal rings. 4 years so far and no blowby. A windage tray, and my cyl. head drains were opened up. with all the oil restriction you may want to use roller rockers also. I don't have the rod mod and can run miles at 4k and above and not sweat it, except for fuel use. oil pressure never drops below 57psi in summer, I live here at the river, no oil cooler, 10 qt pan. I use Valvoline 40 wt racing oil and a Wix filter. Just say no to FRAM!! My boat pulls skiers, wakeboarders and tubers and runs whenever I hook the battery and hit the key. Take your time and ask questions.

[Jet Boat John]

Thanks again for the input!
WUTWZAT- That eBay motor 2495663298 for $750 does look like a screaming deal I agree! To bad I'm as far into mine as I am, no turning back now.
There is another 455 marine engine on eBay 7928422937 currently $300, it has a 14 qt. Dooley pan, forged 2390's, "G" heads and was suppose to of been a blower motor. But the heads included have OEM style valve rotator retainers on them and no way would they live with the spring pressures required for a blower engine, maybe that's why they didn't like it and swapped it for a cheby?
I've decided to do the rod-mod, it costs little to nothing to do, doesn't hurt a thing , and may actually help something, I don't know. I'll still maintain the reccomended .018"-.022" rod side clearance.
I know the Keith Blacks are cast pistons, but they are heat treated to T6. KB recommends .0035"-.005" piston clearance for marine applications which is nice since they don't expand and contract as much as a forging. KB132's have a compression distance of 1.750" compaired to the TRW L2323F's 1.735". Only .015" but at least the piston won't be .030" down in the hole like with the TRW's and may save the cost of decking the block. Plus they have a "D" shaped dish with the flat of the "D" creating some quench, which is always a good thing. Ain't technology grand!
At $269 at Summit Racing, both pistons are within $10 of each other.
I know most jet boaters (even cam companies) reccomend camshafts around 70 degrees of overlap for use in jet boats. The Comp 280 Magnum, and Lunati 00083, even the ISKY 280 all fall into this category. The Comp XE262 I've chosen has only 48 degrees overlap!
But the reduction in overlap doesnt have to mean less performance. (hopefully more!) Modern cam technology allows for a "fatter" flow window past the valve using computer engineered lobe profiles that can reduce the total camshaft duration but still maintain plenty of flow.
I have "J" casting heads, and they still contain the small valves, I know heads are the key to any performance engine, and the area where smart money should be spent. I plan to retain the small valves but will have them "BOWL-HOGGED" and a 3 angle valve job. They are another reason for picking the small-ish cam. I hope to get it all done by 4700RPM or so. I may even look into an AA impeller.
It's all theory at this point (alot of theory) but as soon as I get it all together and the lake isnt frozen, I'll have some GPS MPH numbers. I'm scared to tell you what I want this little low rpm beast (in a heavy boat) to run!
Again thanks for the help, advice, and the ear!
JBJ

[malcolm]

Sounds like you've already done a lot of Olds homework. So what kind of performance are you getting out of the 350? I'm running a small block 403. I went with a stock bottom end (no sense going crazy with the windowed main webs), and stock cam bearings (no restrictors). The small block is a little better as far as bearing speed goes due to the smaller journals. I used an 8 quart pan with a HV oil pump and pick-up. I am running restricted pushrods but that's it. On a 455 it's a good idea to put in the cam restricters, but they only serve to push more oil to the crank, not limit oil to the "top end". To do that you'll need to do lifter bore restrictors or pushrods. The reliefs in the rods serve to let the increased oil flow out quicker in hopes that it wont build as much heat and avoid spun bearings.
I used a W31 cam which was also the factory hipo marine cam used in the 70's. It has a .474 lift and a 232 @ .050 duration which is just enough to give you a good sounding idle but not be too rough on the stock valve train. It was turning 4600 with logs on a B impeller, which I boosted up to 4900 this summer with the addition of headers. I'm still having fun playing with this engine, but I am working on a big block Chevy to replace it in the future as I plan on running up and down the river at WOT a lot! :)

[malcolm]

If you have a few extra minutes here's a small video of my boat on my local river. It's only 400k
My boat (http://home1.gte.net/res09phe/driveby.wmv)
If it wont run by clicking on it, right click on it and 'save target as'. Make sure it keeps the .wmv extension and play it off your hard drive with Windows Media Player.

[Jet Boat John]

Hi Malcolm,
I watched your video, that 403 sounds plenty healthy!
I bought this Maverick a few weeks ago, it was an eBay deal, located in Portland, OR. Awesome country, I see your from that area too.
It was a long drive there and back from Oklahoma, but I needed a real get away vacation and the trip provided that.
I've never launched the boat, the 350 is very tired, it runs but smokes badly and the Q-jet percolates at idle. As soon as I can I hope to get to the water with the new 455.
I havent really decided how to go about correcting the top end over-oiling issue yet, It looks like restricted push rods are the common cure. There was an old-school method of sticking pipe cleaners inside the pushrods, I think Mopar guys used to do that back in the day. May still work but kinda crude by todays standards. Also I think OEM 60's solid lifter small block chevys used edge-orifice, or piddle-valve lifters or something like that (I'm working off memory) that limited the oil to the heads at the lifter.
A hyd. cam motor must have a good supply of oil to the lifter for it to mantain zero lash, but its a shame aftermarket Olds lifters don't limit the oil to the pushrod, that would cure alot of problems. But I guess that would cut into some of Mondello's revenue.
Learning, JBJ

[Anthony75]

Smith-Brothers actually makes the restricted pushrods that Mondello sells.
Contact them directly @ 800 368-1533

[malcolm]

Wow, what a road trip! We took our Spectra down to Arizona once for a meet, so I know just how you felt. I'm another 5 hours above Portland, north-east of Seattle.
I was given my pushrods by a good friend on the Realoldspower forum. If not, I would have gone the external drainbacks from the rear of the heads to the pan.

[Jet Boat John]

Hey Olds Guys,
It's early, I just woke up, so if this idea is crazy understand why.
Okay... Oil drain-back from the heads is an issue on the Oldsmobile, that we know, so running a PCV-valve system on one valve cover as commonly done (basically connecting a vacuum source to one head is doing nothing to help oil drain-back on that head, in fact it may be helping to retain oil there.) ...just seems like a bad idea.
A better method would be to install the PCV valve in the intake manifold intersecting the lifter-valley area, so when its operational it may actually draw (suck) the oil from the heads back into the pan. SBF's have a system like this. Just an idea.
Good morning, JBJ

[malcolm]

I've seen engines with the PCV in the intake before. Not sure if it helped oil drain out of the heads though. I don't think the external drains are really necessary, many guys on ROP have had success with just enlarging the drainback holes in the heads a drill size or two. Then do a little oil path porting leading into them. Anyone else have any thoughs?

[1HOTGMCJET]

I don't think the external drains are really necessary, many guys on ROP have had success with just enlarging the drainback holes in the heads a drill size or two. Then do a little oil path porting leading into them. Anyone else have any thoughs?
No, but I have some THOUGHTS....(sorry, couldn't resist... :wink: ) - I'm gonna be working on a couple of 455's this winter, can anyone post pics or send/post illustrations to me that show the oil drainback hole locations and/or the mods you're talking about? Thank you in advance!

[Jet Boat John]

Hi all,
Just got home from the machine shop, I took them some parts for the short block and found that my heads where ready. <smile>
Bowl hogged, bowl blended, 3 angle valve job, bronze guides, new springs, retainers and locks...... but, no oil drain back mods. I asked Keith about it and he tells me to simply never run 20w-50w, instead run 10w-40w or plain 30w, and to always let the engine warm up a minute to thin the oil before romping on it hard, and I shouldn't have any issues. But if I did have an issue that restricted pushrods could be installed easily threw the valve covers later (good point).
I asked him about moving the PCV valve from the valve cover and he agreed with the idea and we then came up with pulling the oil tube in the front of the motor and to use a 5.0L Ford grommit and install the PCV valve in that location. Then run a breather in each valve cover. Sounds like a plan so I'll use it.
Bad news was the gas sipping 302 SBC (one peice crank seal, 3" stroke 4" bore, hyd. roller cam motor) I'm building for my daily cruiser using a '94-'96 L99 4.3L crank and powdered metal rods in a 350 block took two chunks of Mallory metal to balance... $$$ OUCH! Oh well, the price you pay for testing theories.
JBJ

[malcolm]

Better re-think that idea for a PCV in the oil fill hole. There's more oil there than you can shake a stick at! Take it from a guy whose oil cap came off once and filled my whole engine compartment with oil. :D
1hotgmc - Damn, you got me there! I usually reread my posts for something stupid like that. :rolleyes:

[1HOTGMCJET]

1hotgmc - Damn, you got me there! I usually reread my posts for something stupid like that. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry, malcolm - for whatever reason, I just get a kick out of typos - I know I'm really anal about my spelling and such, too, but sometimes brain fade just takes over, even if you DO preview before................sorry again if I caused any offense!

[Ol Yeller]

I'm gonna tell you, last winter my engine guy said the oil mods were not needed when I restored my boat with a 455. Boy was he wrong! This thing will flat fill up the valve covers with oil in no time flat at above 4 grand- good thing for the 12 quart pan. Other than that it runs like a raped ape, I used a Comp Cam 42-225-4, as other's might say this is the perfect 455 Jet Boat cam. If I did it again:
- Gapless rings
- 10 quart or more pan
- 4 main restrictors
- restricted push rods
- valve cover to pan return lines
I'm doing these now although I already have the pan and main restrictors installed. Go to Banderlog.com. Several folks running hot 455s including one who is getting ready to Blow a 455 in a Sanger. Good luck.
-Wade