Dry Sump Motors

[jackpunx]

what are the pros and cons of running this system?
thanks
Mark

[cstraub]

Pro's
Longeveity due to better oil control
More HP and torque
Maintenance is very easy and serviceable.
Neg's
Cost. . .that's really it. You are looking at around $2500 per engine for a standard 3 stage system. If you go with a divider pan system you are looking at around $3500

[jackpunx]

Pro's
Longeveity due to better oil control
More HP and torque
Maintenance is very easy and serviceable.
Neg's
Cost. . .that's really it. You are looking at around $2500 per engine for a standard 3 stage system. If you go with a divider pan system you are looking at around $3500
thank you.

[Shallow Minded]

dumb question, but what exactly are they?

[flat broke]

A dry sump system is one in which the engine oil is kept in a separate resevoir and pumped by an external pump through the engine. The oil is then scavenged out of the bottom of the pan and run back to the resevoir for use again.
By not having the oil sloshing around under the crank, you dont have the drag of the oil against the crankshaft counterweights. Additionally as already stated, this method gives you better control over the oiling system as a whole since the oil pump isn't directly mated to cam rpm and can be changed with pulleys if needed.
Hope that helps,
Chris

[Fiat48]

Pictoral: http://www.moroso.com/articles/articledisplay3.asp?article=AboutDrySumpSystems.ht ml

[jackpunx]

A dry sump system is one in which the engine oil is kept in a separate resevoir and pumped by an external pump through the engine. The oil is then scavenged out of the bottom of the pan and run back to the resevoir for use again.
By not having the oil sloshing around under the crank, you dont have the drag of the oil against the crankshaft counterweights. Additionally as already stated, this method gives you better control over the oiling system as a whole since the oil pump isn't directly mated to cam rpm and can be changed with pulleys if needed.
Hope that helps,
Chris
what are the HP gains in most cases?.. I hear its between 2500 - 3500 $$ .. does that sound about right?
Also..what are Pros and cons of an external oil pump with out the sump.
thanks

[cstraub]

Std 3 stage set up compared to a wet sump internal pump is around 30HP gain. . .but that will vary. . .just an average there. When you go to 5 stage and more with the divider pans you can see another 15 to 30 depending on application, CID, and rpm of engine.
There are no real negatives with an external pump except maybe "room". OEM's are looking into this technology and some are using it currently. We are working with one for a "production" car.

[Infomaniac]

Some big stroke cranks will not clear a typical main cap mounted pump.
The pump would have to be external whether the oil was in the pan or not.

[jackpunx]

Some big stroke cranks will not clear a typical main cap mounted pump.
The pump would have to be external whether the oil was in the pan or not.
thanks for the info on this.. I believe its a must for my new motor.

[cstraub]

It's just an all around better system. . . .now when I can tell you. . .I will tell you what OEM's car will be a dry sump in the near future!!!!
Chris

[stix818]

One thing in particular I like about a dry sump is that you don't lose oil pressure in a flat (or other apps) that has the motor facing backwards. Regardless of how you let off and the pan's baffles I still find a drop in oil pressure!!

[HighRoller]

JP, if you're looking at another way to get some more ponies from your setup and improve efficiency you might investigate a belt driven crankcase vacuum pump.

[jackpunx]

JP, if you're looking at another way to get some more ponies from your setup and improve efficiency you might investigate a belt driven crankcase vacuum pump.
HR,
not really worried about the ponies.. more about having a good oiling system to protect my motor..
jp

[cdog]

Your really better off improving something else before spending $2,500 to make mabey 30 HP. That's $83.00 a HP. Ouch. Not to mention if you have a I/O and a sea pump you'll have a cluster F@%k of belts to drive all of your acc. Most of the external oil pumps i've seen mount where you'd put your sea pump and have a cog belt pully, made specificly for drag racing.

[jackpunx]

Your really better off improving something else before spending $2,500 to make mabey 30 HP. That's $83.00 a HP. Ouch. Not to mention if you have a I/O and a sea pump you'll have a cluster F@%k of belts to drive all of your acc. Most of the external oil pumps i've seen mount where you'd put your sea pump and have a cog belt pully, made specificly for drag racing.
Your absolutly right.. but I had to ask.. :D .. My engine builder wants me to run an external oil pump..
it helps him feel better about the warrentee :D

[cdog]

Your absolutly right.. but I had to ask.. :D .. My engine builder wants me to run an external oil pump..
it helps him feel better about the warrentee :D
Good Luck Bro. Sound's Expensive.

[Infomaniac]

I insist on shaft rockers and external pump when someone requests an extended high RPM poker run type application.
You can get cam driven external pumps and Moroso makes a decent single stage pump for use with wet sump.

[jackpunx]

I insist on shaft rockers and external pump when someone requests an extended high RPM poker run type application.
You can get cam driven external pumps and Moroso makes a decent single stage pump for use with wet sump.
thanks info,
when you say.. Extended HIGH rpm motor.. what do you mean?.. 5500+ for more then a 3min?.. I'll never do that.. but GT wants me to have one.

[cstraub]

Gain over wetsump with internal or external pump = 30HP
Engine longevity over a wet sump = Priceless
Cost in a dry sump is a large factor but when you consider the cost of a high HP engine and what it may cost if damage is caused by an oiling system failure, the dry sump engine is the clear winner. The idea of having 20qts of oil for a nice long run is good insurance.
Chris

[Fiat48]

Mine is a 3 stage and only on there for one reason. Oil pressure in any position (except upside down which would then be the least of my worries).
The Hp is a nice plus and you can definately feel the difference.
Pump was near $700, tank was $500, Oil pan $500, drive system was $500 (if not blown you can do cheaper than this). Don't remember how much the plumbing was but #12 and flowed fittings are not cheap.
$2000 block & $1800 crankshaft protection.

[don johnson]

I have had Gary's motors in my boats for years and he really likes the Aviad external, timing cover drive oil systems. I have had these on my motors from him and they work bitchin. Oil pressure never fluctuates, even when hot and at idle and incorporates and external pressure adjustment. One of the key benefits of this system is it removes all the distributer gear wear issues.
Dry sumps are way better but a lot more $'s.

[UBFJ #454]

We run an Swedish made, six stage, 28mm Auto-Verdi dry sump pump (the same one most NASCAR cars now run) and could not be Happier ... It cost a few hundred bucks more than the Moroso pump but is in my opinion, Far, Far Superior in terms of its Maintainance (The Lack Of) & Performance ... With it we're running a Stef's Custom Scavange Pan designed by Dave Ebbert of DNE (Chris will remember it) ... The Whole System Has Performed Flawlessly Over The Past Two (2) + Years and we still have the same vacuum as we had the day it was New. In addition to the Hp benefits of a Top Notch Dry Sump System (An Additional 45 to 60 Hp), indications currently are that the Total System (Auto Verdi, Stef & DNE Integrated Design) is, in the longer term, at least going to pay for itself in terms of extended life of some rather High $ Parts.
My suggestion for those of you that are going to spend Some Real Bucks for your motors is that you Investigate Dry Sump Systems and Their Eventual Cost Savings.
Just my 0.02 + Cents.

[steelcomp]

Another benefit of dry sump systems is one that you hear little talked about, but widley used with NASCAR engine builders, and that is that you can actually pick up a few extra HP if you're in the finals, or wanting a good qualifying spot, and need every pony you can get, by playing with pulley sizes. Many NASCAR builders will increase the pulley on the pump a few teeth and lower the oil P by a few pounds and pick up extra HP for qualifying day. Of course they won't race like that, but it's there if you need it. They do this on the dyno, as well, for "better numbers", and to see just what they can get away with.
But you can't tell anyone I told you this, K? :cool:
steel

[UBFJ #454]

One of the Main Things to watch for when using a Dry Sump System is Not Having Too Much Vacuum ... If you do have the pump creating too much vacuum in the system you will suck the oil off the bearings and burn the motor up.

[steelcomp]

One of the Main Things to watch for when using a Dry Sump System is Not Having Too Much Vacuum ... If you do have the pump creating too much vacuum in the system you will suck the oil off the bearings and burn the motor up.
Wouldn't the vacuum from a vac. pump fight the scavenging side of the dry sump pump? This dosen't sound like a good idea to me.

[Infomaniac]

Wouldn't the vacuum from a vac. pump fight the scavenging side of the dry sump pump? This dosen't sound like a good idea to me.
Creating crankcase vacuum is a normal function of a multi stage dry sump oil pump.

[steelcomp]

Creating crankcase vacuum is a normal function of a multi stage dry sump oil pump.
That's my point. Why would you run both? Or would you? Is is a common practice to seal the engine as you would when using a vacuum pump to take advantage of the suction of the scavenging?

[steelcomp]

One of the Main Things to watch for when using a Dry Sump System is Not Having Too Much Vacuum ... If you do have the pump creating too much vacuum in the system you will suck the oil off the bearings and burn the motor up.
I'm assuming you could have the same problem with a wet sump and a vacuum system.
Jack...are you talking about the vacuum from the scavenging side of the pump, or a vacuum pump in addition to...? Maybe I'm reading something into this that you're not saying.

[UBFJ #454]

The inside of the motor is totally sealed and isolated from the outside world ... Dry Sump Pump creates vaccum throughout motor by scavenging the oil from bottom of the pan ... Then pumps it to the reservoir where another stage of the pump picks it back up and puts into the back of the block (BBC Design) ...
It is a totally closed, loop system (oil in at back of block, BBC Design, runs throughout the motor (we have significantly modified the BBC "Priority Oiling System" due to our use of Large JESEL Lifters ... if you use Big Jesel Lifters and you do not modify the BBC Priority Oiling System you won't get enough oil on Lifters/Push Rods for #'s 4, 6 & 8 and you will probably destroy them on initial start up ... We Did before we made the MOD) and is taken out off the bottom of the pan ... And ... You don't run thin valve covers because the vacumm created by the pump will litterly suck the valve covers, collapse them, into the rocker arms.
I know I kinda Rambled above, but, I hopes it helps you understand how the system works.
Jak
P.S. With our Auto-Verdi Six Stage Pump ... 4 Stages scavenage the pan, 1 pumps the oil to the reservior and the last one pumps it from the reservior to the back of the back of the block ... In the system we use only about 6 1/2 qts. of Royal Purple R-11 (Essentially 5/20 wt., Synthetic Racing Oil) and change it out every 10 to 12 Max. 1/4 mile runs ...

[Infomaniac]

Are you guys running Crysler lifters?

[UBFJ #454]

Info -
Jesel PLF 49230's & 40's (Rt. & Lt.) ... Bar Lifters.
Remember that we're running ProFiler Heads ... Don't know about clearances around lifters for oil flow on other heads ... That was our original problem ... The oil couldn't come around fast enough to 4, 6 & 8 going via GM's Priorty Oiling Route ... We simply short cut the route in the "Old Fashion" way ... Via the rear cam race ... We're running a 55 mm cam.
This Help?

[steelcomp]

Are you guys running Crysler lifters?
I see that Comp makes a .904" "super lifter" for the BB Chev., as well. They're also selling the 1" Morel. Now THAT'S a nice piece. They actually have two rollers on the ex lifter. Way overkill for anything but Top Fuel. The cyl pressure that a TF motor is trying to open the ex valve against is unreal!
Jack...thanks for the explaination. I've worked with plenty of dry sump systems...my confusion was thinking that there was something suggesting a vac pump and a dry sump system together. I've built some systems that scavange from many different places, like the back of the lifter valley, the back of the right hand side head, and three in the pan. (What the customer wanted). Circle track guys like to get oil back in the tank ASAP!
How much vacuum do you allow in your engine? Do you use a vac regulator? The systems I'm familiar with had open crankcases, although I know now the thinking is to take advantage of the vacuum.

[steelcomp]

Info -
Jesel PLF 49230's & 40's (Rt. & Lt.) ... Bar Lifters.
Remember that we're running ProFiler Heads ... Don't know about clearances around lifters for oil flow on other heads ... That was our original problem ... The oil couldn't come around fast enough to 4, 6 & 8 going via GM's Priorty Oiling Route ... We simply short cut the route in the "Old Fashion" way ... Via the rear cam race ... We're running a 55 mm cam.
This Help?
:confused: :confused: OK...I give...what does the type of head you're running have to do with lifter oiling?

[UBFJ #454]

We're happy with 19 1/2 to 20 lbs ... Don't like anything above 21 lbs..
Different heads have different size lifter/push rod hole bores in their AL castings.

[steelcomp]

We're happy with 19 1/2 to 20 lbs ... Don't like anything above 21 lbs..
Different heads have different size lifter/push rod hole bores in their AL
castings.
I'm hoping you mean inches of vac...?
still don't get it about heads vs/ lifter oiling, but I'll take your word for it.
Thanks for the info.

[UBFJ #454]

Yeah ... Inches ... Not #'s ... Saturday Night, Worked Fabricating Race Loaders All Day, Reasonable Beer, Etc. ... My Opps.