454 head question

[ECeptor]

My 454 head casting number is 14092360. Is this considered a "peanut port" head?

[malcolm]

Yes they are. Everyone goes by the last three #s. My 454 had those (360s) so I picked up some other 'normal' oval port heads for my build.

[ECeptor]

Malcolm - thanks for the info.
So, what mods did you make to your 454? Sounds like I'll be swaping heads, cam, intake and carb over the winter. What specific parts did you use and what would you do differently next time around?

[GofastRacer]

What pistons do you have???, the good oval port heads came in different chamber configuration, the best ones were the 049's which is a full open chamber like the 990's but they also have a semi open chamber head that have the same ports but the chambers are smaller which require a different piston!..

[ECeptor]

I don't know what pistons are in the engine. The engine is a bone-stock 1989 Mercruiser 454 Bravo. I'm searching and (slowing) finding the specific details about the engine.

[malcolm]

My 781 heads look to have the same chamber as my old 360s. I'm just in the part collecting stage so I won't know what I did wrong till next year. :D
I'm thinking about high 9s on compression and a Comp extreme marine hyd cam. I'm hoping for close to 500 horse.

[TIMINATOR]

Your pistons are cast, dump them before they shatter into gravel in the pan! Usually you get a bigger cam, intake and carb, and thats when they go BOOM! We sleeve about 6-8 motors every spring from people doing mods over the winter with cast piston motors. They usually get 3-6 outings on the deal before we see them. Hyper-you-f**ked-me pistons are usually good for 1 or 2 more outings. Hone the block, buy forged pistons. Everybody will tell you that they run or know somebody running cast pistons with no problems, but they won't offer to pay for the carnage when they are wrong. Maybe they are lucky, maybe they aren't making any power... You can also make 500 hp with the heads you have now,(ported and big valved), but thats about it, depends how far you are going. Performer airgap intake, 750 Holley, Comp tight lobe center jetboat cam (220 or so at .050),thru transom exhaust and you are there! Thru transom exhaust usually doesn't help a Bravo deal with the lower HP motors, but once the cam/intake/carb is done, it will help a lot. The stock cast pistons are on borrowed time over 350+ HP. TIMINATOR

[ECeptor]

I'm just looking for a few simple mods to the top end to pick up a few hp and rpm. Currently the engine signs off at about 4200 rpm - right at Mercruisers spec.
I'm I being foolish to push this engines bottom end of this engine up to 5,000 rpm and somewhere around 400hp? I know TIMINATOR's thoughts already (which I'm hearing loud and clear), anyone else do/seen a set up like this?

[GofastRacer]

As TIMINATOR says, save money and do it right the first time!..

[TIMINATOR]

Any cam that is a worthwhile replacement for the stock one WILL REQUIRE a change to a true dual spring(the flat damper doesn't count), and an appropriate retainer. Be very careful of the stock valveguide as it usually will either hit the retainer or smoosh the stem seal with very little more lift. Bottom line: you might as well remove the heads, pocket-port, cut down the guides, and maybe install larger valves, all at once. The BBC is intolerant of halfway measures in the valvegear area. And while ya got the heads off get rid of those pesky pistons too! TIMINATOR

[Moneypitt]

500 HP with 9:1 compression? Cuse' me, but I can't see it..............MP

[Fiat48]

A 454 at sea level with 9 to 1 compression and 100% Volumetric efficiency (which you will not see) would have to turn 7000 rpm to make 503 hp. Ain't happenin.

[ECeptor]

Based on what I've learned here and elsewhere, I'm going to give the engine a good tune-up this winter but leave it stock. I'll start building up a new engine from scratch one of these days and swap it out or just build up a whole new boat.
Thanks for the advice!

[TIMINATOR]

Moneypitt: I DID NOT SAY HE COULD MAKE 500 HP IN HIS APPLICATION as the BEST CHOICE!!! ONLY THAT THOSE HEADS WOULD SUPPORT 500 HP!!! He COULD do it in his deal, but it's not the cheapest way either. The key is PROPER porting and valve sizes.
Fiat 48: Any time you want to see 700+ HP normally aspirated,950 HP on the bottle, with ONE 4bbl CARB at 9.5 Comp. on regular gas and 5800 rpm I can show you what it looks like. The locals have seen it! From behind it that is!
I do this for a living(building HP motors), have for a lot of years, have a complete machine shop with all the newest/coolest equipment. I like to think that my expertise is a valuble asset to those in need of aid, I don't like to argue, only give back a little because I never recieved any help when I started out. My helpful(?) posts keep getting farther apart. Maybe I'm just better off lurking and giggling...... TIMINATOR

[Moneypitt]

Yes, sign me up for a dimenstration, and then quietly show me how you do it! The part I want to see is the 150% or so of volumetric effienency. I've been around too many blocks to say that you can or can't do something, but I sure would like to see how you do it, 700 HP from a pump gased 9.5:1 NA 454 w/one 4 brl, @5800......OK..Where and when can I get educated............MP
(PS: HP does mean horsepower, right?)

[Fiat48]

I offer the following thread for a better education of volumetric efficiency. Some comparisons I did with known engine builders current offerings are there.
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45005
And I offer the following calculations with my little program:
Conditions: 0 elevation. 60 degrees temperature and 0% humidity. Any increase in elevation, temperature or humidty and the required VE shown below will INCREASE.
9 to 1 454 running 5800 rpm's.
VE required to make 500 Hp is 120%
Ve required to make 700 Hp is ...well I could only get to 626 hp at 150% Ve.
9.5 to 1 454 running 5800 rpm's.
Ve required to make 500 Hp is 113.5%..Again I could only get to 661 Hp at 150%. Seems my program only allows 150% Ve.
Read the thread. Believe what you want to.
Ps: Just to see if my program was in tune with todays engines I ran the engine specs from John Kaase winning engine in the engine masters contest. A rather special 468 Ford.
13.2 compression
4.250 Bore
4.125 stroke
745 Hp @ 6500
657.5 ft lbs @ 4900
Controlled induction program said that was:
106% VE
102.3% Torque efficiency.

[Infomaniac]

Moneypitt: I DID NOT SAY HE COULD MAKE 500 HP IN HIS APPLICATION as the BEST CHOICE!!! ONLY THAT THOSE HEADS WOULD SUPPORT 500 HP!!! He COULD do it in his deal, but it's not the cheapest way either. The key is PROPER porting and valve sizes.
Fiat 48: Any time you want to see 700+ HP normally aspirated,950 HP on the bottle, with ONE 4bbl CARB at 9.5 Comp. on regular gas and 5800 rpm I can show you what it looks like. The locals have seen it! From behind it that is!
I do this for a living(building HP motors), have for a lot of years, have a complete machine shop with all the newest/coolest equipment. I like to think that my expertise is a valuble asset to those in need of aid, I don't like to argue, only give back a little because I never recieved any help when I started out. My helpful(?) posts keep getting farther apart. Maybe I'm just better off lurking and giggling...... TIMINATOR
I would be curious to see it.

[ECeptor]

OK, this thread is flying head-long into a direction I've wanted to talk about here.
First off, I don't have a fraction of the hands on engine building experience you guys here do, so bear with me. But I've spent more than a few hours studying the physics and chemistry of internal combustion engines and even was the grad student direction the engine lab at the local State college for a couple years. So....
I usually start with BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) when predicting engine power output. The equation I remember is BMEP = 151psi * torque (lb-ft) / displacement (ci).
So let's look at these 2 engines - both 454's, both with peak power at 5,800rpm
First up - 500hp @ 5800rpm -> 500/5800*5252 = 543 ft-lbs at peak power. Calculating BMEP yields 151psi....very obtainable.
Next up - 700hp @ 5800 -> 700/5800*5252 = 634 ft-lbs at peak power. Calculating BMEP yields 211psi....high, but real? I don't know.
For a quick reference consider a Z51 Vette (5.967L). 400hp@6000rpm - at the rear wheels. Assume 20% losses and you have 500hp at the crank. 500hp @ 6000rpm -> 500/6000*5252 = 438ft-lbs at peak power. Calculating BMEP yields 182psi....for an emissions compliant "stock" car engine.
OK, the lab-rat in me has to ask....how many of you builders dyno your engines to get the actual numbers? Just a question, not an accusation!

[malcolm]

:D Now you guys gone and done it!

[TIMINATOR]

I never said that my engine is a 454, I only said it is: a REGULAR GAS 87 octane, 9.5 comp, single carb, thru transom exhaust deal, that runs well. As for all of you "Desk-top-dyno" people, remember: those programs ASSUME optimum timing, air/fuel ratio, mixture distribution, PRECISION MACHINEWORK, proper cam phasing, and a hundred other things be RIGHT. Maybe thats why the motors that you are familiar with don't run like they say in the "simulations". Theres allways the question of heads, rod length, rotating and reciprocating weight, chamber design, type and precision of ignition system, and many other things that I would have to kill you if I divulged, that separate seemingly "same" engines from different builders.
A few years ago a local bracket guy came to us for an estimate on a 360 Mopar engine for a 65 Cuda. He wanted to run high 11s. I said no problem. He told me that my estimate was too high and all of my "talk of precision machining was only to justify gouging him on the price", and my favorite statement:"it's either bored or it's not bored,nothin else you say about it matters". He went to a lesser quality shop and saved himself about $700.00. The car ran 12.35 at 109 at 3000 lbs,open headers,slicks,4000 stall convertor,and 4.86 gears. A female aquaintenance of ours wanted to beat him AND piss him off, so we built an EXACT copy of his engine,part# for part#. Ours was tq plt honed,zero decked,cam degreed,line honed ,balanced much closer and generally built with a much better attention to detail. It ran 11.67 at 116.4mph in a 1973 Challenger at 3600 lbs.(P/S,P/B,mufflers a full out the back exhaust system,street/strip dot tires,4.11 gears and 3200 stall). She drove hers to the track, he trailered his. He said we cheated, that we had N2O, we didn't. We didn't need it. To this day he still doesn't "get-it". Some never will...... TIMINATOR

[Snowboat]

Now don't get all upset. Everything gets questioned. I like your posts. How many cubes were you talking about?

[Infomaniac]

Well Fiat, you better throw away that Desk Top Dyno software you have been using to design those cams. :idea: :idea:
TIMINATOR - dude chill out. It is not personal.
Precision machine work in AZ must be astronomical. $700.00 was just the difference in the cost? I would raise hell if all on my machine work for an engine was $700.00. I get it done at Moritz in Tulsa. They do nearly all the clutches for the fuel teams, alcohol teams as well as tons of other items. Not to mention the engine stuff.

[TIMINATOR]

MILD 572 in mine. MOPAR: Bore w/5 step plateau hone w/tq plate (within .0003"),line hone mains .0002" over low limit, within .0003"of each other,balance everything that recips or rotates to +-.25 gram, BHJ Deck to "0" within .001", resize rods w/ARP bolts within same spec as line hone,modify oiling system, light deburr and enhance drainback in block, hone lifter bores, equalize head CCs, mill heads, install thickwall bronze guides, mill quench areas to same depth(remember that this is a MOPAR) 5 angle valvejob, unshroud valves, assemble and set spring height, check and set valvetrain geometry, assemble engine, install pistons on rods, install cam bearings and freeze and galley plugs, grind and micropolish crank and spoon oilholes, degree cam, bake,blast,magnaflux, measure and set every bearing clearance, and rod side clearances, and I may have forgot somthing. The lesser shop didn't do a lot of these things, they probably never heard of some of them, and their equipment mostly isn't even capable of these tolerances, THATS why the additional cost. I haven't even touched on the differences in the quality of porting, the other guys don't even have a flow bench! We didn't use it on this project, the customer didn't request it, or pay for it, but being familiar with airflow and using our Superflow 600 all the time, I probably do a better job on porting because of it. EVERY ENGINE WE BUILD IS MACHINED TO THESE SPECS IN THIS MANNER!!! Not everyone needs it, wants it or can afford it, we have a large backlog.... WE DO ALL MACHINEWORK AND PORTING IN HOUSE!! The BIG HAHA for the Phoenix area is that many/most of the local "boat shop engine builders" use the cheap guys and mark-up the machining labor to our price levels! Then their customer spends the rest of their time and cash trying to get their stuff to run as good as our motors. They paid premium price for the work and can't understand why their motors don't "run". Things like: pump setback and blueprinting, bottom work, multiple carbs, and lightening the interior come to mind as the normal add-ons after they get beat, often. THEN they can't figure out why the other guy doesn't have all of that other stuff. P.S. an efficient motor uses less fuel, my 572 uses less fuel than most 454s, but thats another story. If you have never had a premium engine built specifically for your application, by a premium shop, you have no basis for comparisons. The people who shop only price on their engines are some of the same guys on these boards who are still trying to beat the system and do the other work themselves. They will still get beaten, they will still be bitter, and they still won't get it. TIMINATOR

[Fiat48]

The only thing I am going to throw away is any responses to this thread. I am done.

[Moneypitt]

Well I didn't just fall off the pumpkin truck, I was PUSHED, But when Bubba and Clem pushed me, they did it evenly, kinda balanced . I guess I know what balanced is now!!......
PS: Are we still gonna get a look at this 9.5:1, NA, pump gassed, single carbed, 700 hp at 5800 454 Disney motor?

[TIMINATOR]

You didn't read in my post that its a 572? ITS A 572! Fiat: Don't see why you are mad, nothing in any of MY posts was directed to you. I have a CAM DR, lobe libraries of most of the big cam companies, Super-Flow 600 and about 1/3 of the cams we use are custom rollers. Custom rollers are offered for those of us that know how to use them effectively. No offense intended. We find the Desk Top Dyno useful for trends too. Since our zoning was modified we no longer have our 1000 HP engine dyno, so the DTD has to suffice- for now. I have some great digital video but don't know how to post the Disney-Land stuff on here. TIMINATOR

[Moneypitt]

I misquoted the part about the 454, how this thread got to a 572 is beyond me.........But, "anytime you want to see" was part of it.........And I really wanted to see it. I build a PS boat, and could use all the HP help out there!!
Moneypitt: I DID NOT SAY HE COULD MAKE 500 HP IN HIS APPLICATION as the BEST CHOICE!!! ONLY THAT THOSE HEADS WOULD SUPPORT 500 HP!!! He COULD do it in his deal, but it's not the cheapest way either. The key is PROPER porting and valve sizes.
Fiat 48: Any time you want to see 700+ HP normally aspirated,950 HP on the bottle, with ONE 4bbl CARB at 9.5 Comp. on regular gas and 5800 rpm I can show you what it looks like. The locals have seen it! From behind it that is!
PS: Life is way too short to get mad over anything concerning speed, HP, cars, boats, pulling tractors.......Well, you get my message..........MP

[Squirtcha?]

I see you're out making more friends Timmy. :idea:
You sure have a knack for pissin people off. Maybe you could try being a little more self-centered and egotistical?

[TIMINATOR]

Dan, as long as I have you for a foil, I will be leaning toward being more user friendly. Debbie says my people skills suck, but she's just being kind... My offer still stands of showing you what bottom work hasn't mattered, what I tried and what others have tried that didn't work. Got some bottom stuff in the burner, you would really be amazed at the lack of results. I wish your project works better than most I've seen. Most weren't even done by me! The names have been omitted to protect the innocent. Hint: I made some MAJOR CHANGES to the 24, one side at a time, and can't even get it to pull, even slightly, with my hands off (but near) the wheel. TIMINATOR

[Squirtcha?]

You're working on it, that's cool. What say we call a truce? I'd be willing to keep my smart ass'd tongue in cheek comments to myself.

[Squirtin Thunder]

Now thats COOOL !!!!!
Jim

[TIMINATOR]

Truce. I really wish you would come over and see the bottom work I'm doing, and you would understand my position better. And I would really like to see someones before and after results, that worked! So far NO-ONE locally has shown me a documented case of more than 1-2 mph gain, and thats too close to call on a lake boat with varying conditions. On the 24 I have removed the added on transom plates that removed the step and created rocker. Restored the steps on one side at a time. Removed the center pod extension plate(no speed gain but the prop stayed hooked up better), rebuilt the steps to their original shape and filled (mostly) the low spot on the port side that was 2 feet long and 3/8" deep. I did these mods on one side at a time and NEVER detected the slightest pull at all. Also no speed difference! Before I started the project, I talked to Mays at Eliminator, he said that I might see 2 mph gain, I haven't even seen that yet. But the thru transom exhaust, cam, and intake gain resulted in enough rpm gain that I had to go up 4" on the prop pitch. Nobody would believe the mph gain so I won't post it, but the people that have seen it will attest to it. It is results like that, that I base my recomendations on. I'll take you skydiving, we'll bond. TIMINATOR