Loader and shoe question..

[WheelerDealer]

Have any of y'all seen a loader like this one before? I am wondering if it is going to work okay for my application, 500-550H.P. BBC in a Southwind Tunnel Dragster. Also, I don't know if you can tell from the picture, but this thing has a LOT of shoe in it from what I have heard others talk about running.http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/2120intake_hardware1.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/2120intake_harware4.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/2120intake_hardware2.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/2120intake_hardware3.jpg
Also you can see where one of the corners of the intake is chipped off on the passenger side front and I am a little concerned about that as well as some mysterious random holes drilled in the intake top.

[corlish]

Wheeler,
The loader is of the blocker variety -- because there are so many different variants of loaders it can be difficult to say if it will be optimum for your application. Will it work better than a stock grate or an angle iron style? - Absolutely, but is it the best for your setup? - who knows.
I am not sure if any of the other pump gurus have their own method but I know that Jack McClure has a system on his website for measuring 4 variables -- with those measurements and some knowledge of your set up -- a recommendation can be made. If you have not been to his site -- do a search for Marine Performance Designs.
Not real sure which holes you are referring to -- but the the holes at the leading edge of the ramps on the loader are for access to the rear two mounting bolts with a ratchet and an extension.
good luck
Corey

[Nucking futs]

You have a PM
Wheres the money blower on this????He knows everything........ :D

[WheelerDealer]

Thanks Nucking Futs..

[WheelerDealer]

Do any of y'all have your loaders powder coated, and if so does it hold up okay?

[Squirtin Thunder]

Do any of y'all have your loaders powder coated, and if so does it hold up okay?
Actually Jack@MPD is using stainless on his loaders and they look real nice for a very long time.
The powdercoated loaders look good for a short time.
Jim

[TIMINATOR]

If ya glass bead them, then paint them, where the paint comes off first is where the turbulence is. Assuming you don't WANT the turbulence..... but then again, I run an open loader, and inducer. I can't even recall how many people have said that I load too much water to run fast, maybe they are right... TIMINATOR

[Squirtin Thunder]

If ya glass bead them, then paint them, where the paint comes off first is where the turbulence is. Assuming you don't WANT the turbulence..... but then again, I run an open loader, and inducer. I can't even recall how many people have said that I load too much water to run fast, maybe they are right... TIMINATOR
Fast is how fast you get the mass water unloaded so you can't run fast if you don't have the water to doit right ???
Jim

[LVjetboy]

Wheeler, those mysterious random holes are to knock out the intake-to-hull bolts.
Is your v-blocker best? I've run one on a 330 hp engine and a 650 hp engine. Top speed good in both cases, but hole-shot not.
That chip on the pax side? Maybe ok with mild use and a good seal. But me? I wouldn't trust it especially for your intended 550 hp goal. You're missing the corner bolt. Maybe you could have an extension welded on and the mating surface machined? Don't know costs or trade-offs, this question more for the pump experts. But I'd think twice about that missing bolt.
jer

[WheelerDealer]

LVjetboy originally posted...
That chip on the pax side? Maybe ok with mild use and a good seal. But me? I wouldn't trust it especially for your intended 550 hp goal. You're missing the corner bolt. Maybe you could have an extension welded on and the mating surface machined? Don't know costs or trade-offs, this question more for the pump experts. But I'd think twice about that missing bolt.
The four corner holes on the suction piece of the pump have been cut off for some reason as well and each each corner is angled on the pump. I will have to post some more pictures later to show what I am talking about. Even if I had that corner fixed I couldn't bolt anything to it because the bolt holes for the corners are not there on the pump. :confused: :confused: :confused: .
I also think that the intake may be cracked, so I will probably be looking for an intake as well. Anybody have one? Mine is a Dominator MB 12 S

[Jeanyus]

This is the loader that MPD recomended for me to use, I have a modified tunnel hull similer to a Southwind.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5859loader.jpg
I Have a little less than 500 HP, my pump is stock with a B impeller, I get a good hole shot with no cavitation.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5859goodloader.jpg

[Squirtin Thunder]

I will have to try it someday soon. Maybe New Years !!!!

[WheelerDealer]

Nice looking loader Jeanyus, how much$$$$

[Squirtin Thunder]

Nice looking loader Jeanyus, how much$$$$
Give Jack@MPD a call he may have a Holliday special going on.
Jim

[Jeanyus]

I can't remember the exact price but I think it was about $150.00, I do remember that when I bought it I thought the price was very reasonable.

[Jeanyus]

I will have to try it someday soon. Maybe New Years !!!!
Get to CFW and you can try it, are you bringing the whole family?

[Squirtin Thunder]

Get to CFW and you can try it, are you bringing the whole family?
And the two dogs !!!

[Duane HTP]

The cut off corners are popular among race boats. It's been done for weight savings for years with no problems. In fact, order an Ameridan Turbine Intake gasket, and you will see that they were even manufactured that way. Some of the merisch Intakes are made that way too. Aggressor also makes their hp intake that way. Here is a picture of one of those intakes.
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/Parts.HTM

[TIMINATOR]

The idea of a blocker is to starve the pump so the motor can turn a higher rpm with the available hp. This is common, but not an idea that I like to use. It has its applications though.... I prefer a big inch motor, a tight impeller, and the economy and performance you get as a result. More cost originally, but cheaper every gas stop. Just my opinion... TIMINATOR

[Squirtin Thunder]

The idea of a blocker is to starve the pump so the motor can turn a higher rpm with the available hp. This is common, but not an idea that I like to use. It has its applications though.... I prefer a big inch motor, a tight impeller, and the economy and performance you get as a result. More cost originally, but cheaper every gas stop. Just my opinion... TIMINATOR
Tim,
I thought that the blocker actually give the boat a bit more lift which in turn creats less drag with an end result of more MPH ???? I could be wrong but I don't think so. At speed the blocker loader is still force feeding the pump along with the shoe.
Jim

[Nucking futs]

The idea of a blocker is to starve the pump so the motor can turn a higher rpm with the available hp. This is common, but not an idea that I like to use. It has its applications though.... I prefer a big inch motor, a tight impeller, and the economy and performance you get as a result. More cost originally, but cheaper every gas stop. Just my opinion... TIMINATOR
To starve the pump of water would unhook or cavitate the pump.A blocker is still force feeding water at a desired location.It will create more lift as well.I also have heard that sometimes a blocker can overload the pump too.
my nickels worth.........Tim

[pops1]

yES - Scott of Scotts Marine- His father was one of the engineers of Jacuzzi
He played around with loaders a lot. You seem to have one or a copy of one.
Its quadrant loading-Dividing the intake and suction into quadrants and loading each by the division you see. Scott gave us one some time ago and we have tested it several times, except it has 6 quads. It loads hard and is staged so as pressure demands receive the flow. Cannot comment beyound that as each loader creates its own problems or meets each condition differently. What is trying to be obtained is consistent loading throughout the pump vs higher lowend pressure and low pressure at top.
Exact placement on the divider bars is critical in order to do this. We found this same condition existed in our std. diverter which was originally placed in the droop horizontal position. We later rotated the divider bar to vertical as we were finding cavatation burns on the bar. Our only reason for the bar was to stop roll in the Droop, which it does. I do think its one of Scotts Marine & Welding in Ark. Dave

[Squirtin Thunder]

Now all we need is Jacks input on this and we will have them almost coverd.
Jim

[Squirtin Thunder]

The idea of a blocker is to starve the pump so the motor can turn a higher rpm with the available hp. This is common, but not an idea that I like to use. It has its applications though.... I prefer a big inch motor, a tight impeller, and the economy and performance you get as a result. More cost originally, but cheaper every gas stop. Just my opinion... TIMINATOR
When you do a bowl, flow a bowl, do you put it on the flow bench right off the bat ??? To get your baseline being that all castings are different. And then proceed to work it into shape and then put it back on multiple times tell the desired #s are reached ?????
Jim

[WheelerDealer]

TIMINATOR originally posted...
The idea of a blocker is to starve the pump so the motor can turn a higher rpm with the available hp. This is common, but not an idea that I like to use. It has its applications though.... I prefer a big inch motor, a tight impeller, and the economy and performance you get as a result. More cost originally, but cheaper every gas stop. Just my opinion... TIMINATOR
Uhhh, Don't think so dude!
Squirtin Thunder originally posted...
I thought that the blocker actually give the boat a bit more lift which in turn creats less drag with an end result of more MPH ???? I could be wrong but I don't think so. At speed the blocker loader is still force feeding the pump along with the shoe. I think your on the money.

[Duane HTP]

Squirtin Thunder, You gave the correct answer on the blocker loader. You get an A for today.

[Squirtin Thunder]

Squirtin Thunder, You gave the correct answer on the blocker loader. You get an A for today.
Thank you Duane !!!
See I do listen !!!
Jim

[TIMINATOR]

Flow it first, not necessarily to get the numbers, but to know the balance, and DIRECTION of the flow. It isn't where most people think it is. I may have been the victim of poor or misleading info, but I have heard of most people getting MORE RPM with a blocker, I just can't see that unless you add more HP, or remove water. On my Daytona 21, a back cut shoe slowed the boat, a flat shoe slowed the boat, and the blocker made it cavitate and unload unless I walked into it. It unloaded also on the top end. Is this a 21 Daytona phenomena? Since the blocker is in the intake, and is called a BLOCKER, does it not block? I have experimented with different shoes with different sizes of openings to admit more or less water, and find no mph gain with a smaller (front to back) opening, nor can I see any handeling difference on my rig. Again, it slowed the holeshot and made it more sensetive to shoe depth. Duane?????????? TIMINATOR

[PC Rat]

On my Daytona 21, a back cut shoe slowed the boat
Interesting, I've heard that the 21 likes the backcut shoe.
Brian

[Duane HTP]

I just recently finished a 21' Eliminator with 852 dyno Hp that ran best with a blocker loader and a back cut shoe. It was a very heavy boat. I have a light 23' Kustom Kraft that don't like a blocker. Again each boat is different.

[LVjetboy]

"The cut off corners are popular among race boats. It's been done for weight savings for years with no problems."
No problems sounds good. But weight savings? How much those cut-off corners compared to strength? I'm thinking saving less than 1/2 pound (aluminum about 0.1 lbs/cuin) maybe not worth sacrificing two holes on an intake. 1/2 pound gets you no-where in acceleration or performance. But that extra intake seal strength maybe?
Just curious.
jer

[Squirtin Thunder]

"The cut off corners are popular among race boats. It's been done for weight savings for years with no problems."
No problems sounds good. But weight savings? How much those cut-off corners compared to strength? I'm thinking saving less than 1/2 pound (aluminum about 0.1 lbs/cuin) maybe not worth sacrificing two holes on an intake. 1/2 pound gets you no-where in acceleration or performance. But that extra intake seal strength maybe?
Just curious.
jer
I agree Jer, but that half pound plus the 38 stainless seat screws and the seats and thecarpet and the 183grams a piston and the casting flash and the foam and the sterio and the extra life jackets equates to about 350lbs in your case. Which could be about 5-10mph in your boat.
Just a thought
Jim

[WheelerDealer]

If you cut off the four corners it allows you to carry one extra beer in the cooler which is always a plus. I also like to drill holes in all of my ice cubes for further weight savings.J/K
After doing a little research I found out as Duane stated that the Aggressor HP intake doesn't have the corner bolts and niether do the Legend intakes. I have also been told that some other aftermarket intakes(Miersch) don't have them either so it must not be an issue.
Here's a pic of my pump.http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/2120suction_piece.jpg

[bp]

wheeler dealer, your loader is a v-blocker. i run a center blocker. i've tested with a couple of v-blockers, one didn't work well at all, the other worked -ok-. center blockers use a flat piece for the center block, rather than going to the trouble of welding a v.
the loader you have -may- work ok. you'll just have to test with it. i've tested several, with varying dimensions. i usually carry two to the races, one for normal conditions, and one for rougher conditions. the loader has to work in concert with the shoe, and neither should be so deep that it overloads the pump on shutdown.
contrary what some would believe, the center blocker is not designed to purposely cavitate the pump at the hit, if that occurs (and there is nothing wrong with the pump), you have too much center block. i go to 6k at the hit with no slip, so ....
hope this helps..

[WheelerDealer]

Thanks for the reply bp. Has the pod been cut down on your boat? Also, your boat is the only other SWTD that I have seen that only has two supports on the tunnel plates, all the others I have seen have three...wtf???

[Squirtin Thunder]

BP,
So your saying that the center bockers that Jack showed us at the Sept race at Ming, work better than the old vBlockers right ???? Do you get as much lift out of the flat center blocker or more lift than the old vBlocker. So correct me if I am wrong, in rougher water you use less blocker right ??? How many of the center blockers did you have to try to get the ones you use now ???
Thank you for the info
Jim

[bp]

WD, my boat has 3 turnbuckles on each tunnel plate, and the pod has not been cut back - it is original length. maybe you're looking at a different boat?
i've had some people suggest that i cut the pod, but i'm not ready to do that quite yet. there's some logic behind doing that. back when the sw was original, shoes and rideplates weren't in vogue and the pod was the ride surface. but that's all changed now. cutting the pod, at least to the hand hole, allows easier access to the bowl for quicker impeller changes if testing is desired. i have two impellers that i use at different times of the year. i can get the transom adapter off ok, but it is time consuming, and then the wait for the silicone to set. there may come a day.... dunno yet.
jim, not sure what you mean by "old" v-blocker. i resent the term "old" ;)
the first loader jack had me try when i river raced was a small vblocker. picked up 4 mph with it. a few laps later, someone else handed me another vblocker that they said worked great in a swtd. tried it and lost 5 mph. gave it back, but jacks back in.
the blocks are really there to direct water, as are the ramps. ramp size, length, angle and depth are all variables that can have significant impacts on performance. an added attraction to blockers is that they can be constructed with a slight backcut angle, which can provide added lift. my loaders do not have excessively long ramps, and they work very very well for a 110 mph boat.

[Squirtin Thunder]

BP,
Now that I am really confused, I have noticed that the other boats in the world (not Sangers) there fins and loaders stick deeper into the water and have a more radical angle of aproch. I will take some pick so you can see what I am talking about. Here are some but very hard to tell.
jim

[WheelerDealer]

bp originally posted...
WD, my boat has 3 turnbuckles on each tunnel plate
Sorry about that bp, I guess I saw another swtd over on another site that I thought was yours(same colors and pattern) I apologize. I am thinking about cutting the pod on mine but I am not sure. Tom Papp sure seems to think that they should be cut down, but I talked to nucking futs here on the boards and he says don't cut it...who knows what I will do????? :confused:

[bp]

jim, not to be confused, but that looks like a bunch of pictures of the same super sanger to me. my fins have been cut about an inch, thinned a bit, are very straight and smooth. no top secret stuff, i don't mind if people look or take a pic if they want.
WD, i would not cut the pod just to cut the pod. the one and only reason to do that is to facillitate easy changing of impellers. the only situation where you'd really need to do that in a hurry (and i'm talking less than an hour, when your good, about half an hour) is at a race track, where you might have changing conditions, or you might want to do some testing on the next pass.
so, my point is this; there is absolutely no performance advantage in cutting the pod.
however, having made that particular point, knowing what tom (cress, not papp; papp rigged it) does with his boat, and what i do with my boat, there is some good reasonable logic that would lead us to the decision to cut it. both boats are at the track a lot. but mine is kind of original and old school design and style, while tom's has a more updated paint scheme.
currently it takes me 3-4 hours to change impellers with the transom adapter the way it is. i'm not saying it will stay this way forever, but i have other improvements i want to make to this thing that i know will make me better on the track. and i aint givin any of that away :)

[WheelerDealer]

I understand what you are saying about cutting the pod bp, however one of the main reasons Papp said he liked to do it was to get the hand hole cover outside the boat in case it was to break as many of them have done lately so that the boat would not sink, and the other big reason was the ability to run a pop-off valve but I don't think I will be needing one of those anytime soon. I love the look of the SWTD, that is why I bought it and I won't be cutting it anytime soon but it is something I might do in the future. Oh yeah, whenever we get this thing done we will probably be giving the 10.00 second bracket a try.

[bp]

WD, sdba has a really good modified eliminator class back there, very large and very tough. there's a fellow named george olson from galveston that runs a swtd in the class, boat 248 'see ya', that you might try to contact. i don't know him, but from pictures i've seen, his pod is original. he finished this season in the middle of the pack. theresa ward finished 10th or 11th, and she was runner up at the world finals. very very very tough class, but also a very great place to learn.
i agree, we've seen a few handhole cover failures over the past few years. shoddy castings. we've also seen a few suction piece failures, cracking and blowouts from the intake to the bowl, from shoddy casting core shift. so, should we move the entire pump outside the boat because the parts are crap? i don't think that's an option. better to just make sure you have good parts, or just get better parts. i believe black bear found that dominator is making the best suction piece available.
regarding a popoff, if you're intending to run big speeds a popoff is a very good idea. for me, the jetaway is sufficient. i've stepped off on the big end before, so i know what's gonna happen. my boat is set up a little differently than others have run these things, but it seems to be working ok.

[WheelerDealer]

Thanks for all the info bp, I will definitely be looking up the "see ya" boat and talking to them, and I agree with you on the parts issue, I was just stating the reasons Papp had given me. I certainly think you should always run the best parts available if you can and we will also be running a jetaway too.

[Squirtin Thunder]

BP,
Sorry I will have better pics soon. Are the Vblocker still being used ??? How old are you BP something like 40 right. BP you are not old just older than I. That is a super "Sanger Custom Sprint Jet" in my eyes. I geuss I will have a lot of testing to do to get the right loader in the boat.
Happy Thanksgiving to all
Jim

[FOURQ]

as far as the pod cutting ....just my .02 i wouldnt cut it but if i did I would leave the intake in the same location it is .. mine is cut back for a pop-off and the intake was left alone it does real well i run a 425 hp 468 @ 5300 with an "A" and im hitting 87 on the big end. so if it was mine and i was going to put in a pop-off id cut it and leave the intake were it sits.......
4Q

[TRG]

i went to Tom Papp's shop with djdplacecraft and they were going to leave the pod bottom alone and just cut the pod @ an angle from the top of the transom to the bottom corner of the pod just to fit the pop-off,... i thought that was a pretty cool idea! ive seen some guys cut the entire pod off of the transom and have to start over from a freshly reglassed transom.
figured i would share my 2 sec.'s of info! carry on as you were! lol
todd

[FOURQ]

i seen dannys boat the other day its looks good the way it was done....
4Q