Capsules? [Archive] - RiverRacer.Net

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-18-2004, 11:30 PM

Let me list a few hurdles the west coast circle guys have with capsules.
Do you make them solid mount or break-a-way?
Unlike a drag boat, a circle capsule would need a completely different break-a-way system. Circle flats pull 2 g's in the turns and run a lot farther (but usually slower) in nasty water than thier 1/4 mile smooth water counterparts.
Back east the guys run capsules successfully, they run on big courses with multi-pin turns. Out west, we run (more often than not) 2 pin turns. The need to see around you is a top priority.
Who's going to design them? Who pays for it?
Will they all be the same? They need to be. You can't expect to train rescue for each teams different creation.
Where are you going to get a "circle flat specific" trained rescue team that is willing to travel to every race?
What would it cost to have a "circle flat specific" trained rescue team that is willing to travel to every race?
After racing your circle flat for whatever amount of time, you can still pleasure boat with it or sell it to some weekender that wants a play boat. With a capsule (unless you want to mount a new deck to it) only a racer would buy it. We all know that pleasure boaters outnumber racers by a huge margin and resale to them is much easier.
I agree that safety should be first, but, theres a lot of R & D needed, financial consideration and owner agreement still pending.
I think the decision to run a capsule should be left up to the owner/drivers until everything can be dialed in and proven if thats possible.
JG

Moneypitt

12-18-2004, 11:37 PM

Jerry I certainly repsect your opinion and the issues you brought to the discussion. Thank you for voicing in, the more we can learn about this safety option, the better..............Ray

Jetboatguru

12-19-2004, 01:06 AM

I am all for capsules! They are safer in a crash period.
However, In a K boat you need to have a full range of vision. Like Jerry said, it is imperative to be able to see at bare minum 270 degrees around you. I am just a beginner in the class but I can tell you my biggest concern is getting T boned going into a turn. In a capsule TAF, you are laid back and you have very limited vision. You can see ahead of you and that is pretty much it because you are strapped in so tightly. There really is no need to be able to see more as you are running a straight line and that is it.
In Red Bluff this year I almost T boned John White in the twin propeller boat because he made a left turn and couldn't see me. It was within a few feet of disaster. The safety that I feel in the capsule is very comforting. You would have to stand the seat up in the capsule of a K boat or SS boat. It would have to be similar to the seat in an open boat. I think it would be difficult to drive a K or a SS boat in a capsule but I think it would be safer. At the same time I think you would be creating accidents by limiting vision.
As far as the curse of Parker, I am not real superstitious. I feel that flatbottom crashes are total driver error unless a parts failure. I am not condemning Gus Schade as I hear he was one of the best, but I can speak for the drag racing side. With the exception of 1 crash in the last 2 years in TAF, 6 out of the 7 crashes were driver error. Hope I didn't upset anyone, but this is how I feel.

Hud

12-19-2004, 09:18 AM

Go to bed, C'mon!.......C'mon! :eek:

BOAT ANCHOR

12-19-2004, 09:57 AM

James Brendel, the originator of the Dragboat Safety Capsule, and John Hart, are currently building safety capsules for circle boat racing that have the needed peripheral vision Tony is asking for. Further inquiries should be made to Mr.James Brendel who can be reached at (925) 325-4967 24 hrs.a day.

kipperps28

12-19-2004, 10:27 AM

MP,
There are several cockpit builders in the Northwest. I have my own capsule PS, I drive Al Lapointe's Security Race Products capsule boat, and I am building a capsule for the SS boat I run (it is in the oven now- will pop out of mold on Monday). In my opinion, a break away is not the way to go for our boats. Make the cockpit strong and make it an integral part of the boat. Your chance of surviving an accident is far greater with a lid. The chance of having a problem with a rescue extraction is worth the protection that a cockpit gives you, in my opinion. Granted, we have excellent rescue crews up here, and the crews back east are good, too. The crews down south would be willing to participate in capsule training, I'm sure. They are there for OUR protection- they want us to be safe. As far as cost, you can buy a complete Ron Jones Jr. cockpit for around $6500.00. That is a lot of money, to me. There are other options. I am finishing a cell for the SS-90 boat which I laid up at myself with the help of guys at Performance Composites. To buy a complete cockpit from them would cost about $2200-2500. Installation is time consuming, but not very difficult. It is a different type of cockpit (a splash of a Jamie Auld small cockpit) but it is the one I prefer. I will post pics as the build starts. This cockpit will allow the driver to sit in a natural position (nearly straight up, and I am 6 feet tall) which as Tony stated is important. Visibilty is certainly a concern- the use of radios is a must. You have to have a good spotter and good radios- similar to circle car racing. The entrance to turn 2 at Burley is a bit of an issue, but I still think the pros far outweigh the cons.
The one other issue is turning your race boat back into a pleasure boat. If you are careful during your installation, you only have to remove a section of the dash, and possible a small portion of deck. Changing back (if you ever wanted to for some reason) would not be really difficult, and you can sell the cockpit to another racer (I bought the one in my PS from Mike Allen in Louisiana).
Sorry so long winded- I feel strongly about this stuff and I am sick of seeing my friends get killed.
Kip Brown
SS-90, PS-28, PS-23...

Moneypitt

12-19-2004, 11:12 AM

Kip, is there a certain hatch release design that everyone uses? What standard are you building the one in the oven to, as far as strength, windshield material, crush resistance, etc. These are the areas that need to be addressed and standardized. A minimum structure tube thickness, a recomended skin material, dos and don'ts concerning boat structural changes, ie stringer modifacations. The $6500 deal, is that rigged? or bare? and if bare, why so much!!.........
Thanks for the input from everyone, we all need to know more about this safety option.............MP

gnRacer98

12-19-2004, 11:13 AM

kipperps28,
Bravo for the xlnt and meaningful info.
If you can build a capsule for $2500 that's easily within reach of any serious racer. SCSC also has xlnt rescue since bringing in NJBA Rescue 3 yrs. ago, they are experienced with dragboat capsules. By the end of the 2005 season they will be exposed, hopefully not experienced, with circle boat capsules as several boats are being capsuled as we speak. :rollside:

FlatRacer

12-19-2004, 12:02 PM

The chance of having a problem with a rescue extraction is worth the protection that a cockpit gives you, in my opinion. ...
When my boat crashed in '92 it sank and was not found for a few hours due the poor visibility. It was finally found in 10 feet of water upside down firmly stuck in the mud. If I had been strapped into it, I would not be here today to argue with you.
I know what you're going to say. "Well, if it had flotation in it, it wouldn't have sunk". Well, my counter argument to that is if the deck had come off, all that glorious flotation would've been bobbing merrily atop the surface of the lake while me and my capsule (which is bolted or glassed to the same pair of stringers as my 600 lb. engine) sunk in the mud like a stone.
Eric Tolnes
Former SS, PS, CanAm

rossdbos

12-19-2004, 12:18 PM

Eric:
I am sorry to hear about the wreck even though it happened years ago and I can completely understand why you are jaded towards capsules. Again, I am not in favor of mandating capsules however I believe that capsules are another safety measure that is meant to improve your odds of survival in a crash. Clearly having no protection for the driver is not working. While there have been several fatalities with capsules, the majority of time (statistically speaking over 97%) capsules save lives. Can we work to improve the safety of the capsules, integrity of the boat, flotation, etc... absolutely. V-Drive, yourself and others have great points and all are being discussed and carefully analyzed but the bottom line is we need some type of barrier between the driver, the water and the boat. If you keep asking yourself what will prevent massive head trauma to a driver who is not strapped in maybe there is another solution, though I have yet to come across one.
As far as your incident- I have spoken to several capsule mfgs. and to the captain of my rescue unit and all agree that nowadays they use a "pinger" that is installed in the capsule and immediately goes on when inverted or water hits it. The rescue (I know my rescue has the technology) team can triangulate and can get the divers down in a short amount of time. Also, mandatory air system for capsules with a minimum 30-50 lb. bottle are in order. Your scenario is exactly what we are looking for to create models for worst case scenarios and then plan for them accordingly. Remember a capsule is no 100% guarantee and shouldn't be looked at that way, instead it should be looked at as another protection measure for the driver to help him/her survive the crash.
Ross

kipperps28

12-19-2004, 12:55 PM

My capsules are not as strong as a Jones or Auld F-16 style. The cell itself is as strong, but the lid is more of a "blow off" style (stonger than an OPC or Champ Boat, but similar design). When you pay for an F-16 cockpit, you are buying the absolute finest in protection. Personally, I believe the Jones Jr. design is the best cockpit to date. It is installed in the Security Race Products/ CLS 1 Up Express boat. However, I would need to stop racing for 2 years to afford a cockpit, which is not an option for me. Gus's accident was the final straw for me- no more open boats. For me, it is a personal decision- I would not hope to force anyone into a capsule boat. I am comfortable driving inside (I have owned and driven inboard capsule hydros before driving flatbottoms.) MP, my understanding is that the price includes all hardware (hinges, latches, window, etc.) The layup schedule and roll cage specs are all included in your APBA rule book. My PS capsule is solid glass, carbon fiber, and kevlar. It is strong, but heavy. My SS cockpit is glass, carbon fiber, and kevlar with foam and honeycomb core. It is very strong, but the cockpit itself is only 20-25 pounds without lid. The lid will be solid carbon and kevlar with 3/8 polycarbonate glass. Anyone can contact me and I will share any info I have. The way that I do it is BY NO MEANS the only way, and may not necessarily be the right way for you, but it is another option.

Terminal Velocity

12-19-2004, 01:16 PM

MP give me a call. 702-266-7322.
James Gregory
PS/SS 75

Moneypitt

12-19-2004, 01:38 PM

Flatracer, glad you're still around to join in this discussion. You bring up a very good point, however, if you were in the boat don't you think rescue would've worked a little faster to find it? That said, I've heard stories of boats going down in very deep water. Are there any venues we race in that are deep beyond the diver's reach?? Again, capsules are a safety option, no one here is trying to MAKE anyone use a capsule that doesn't want one, only trying to figure a less expensive way for those that want the extra measure of safety they seem to offer. Nothing is for sure when boat racing, and a capsule doesn't change that....................Thanks again to all that are offering help and opinions, I value all of them.....................MP

Infomaniac

12-19-2004, 01:48 PM

Thanks everyone that responded. I agree with Ross, mandating capsules isn't my choice, but a safety option I want to know more about......I will report what I discover to inform anyone else that may want to learn more about this safety option.................MP
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Moneypitt

12-19-2004, 02:44 PM

Info, thanks. Thats an e mail Address, I'll use it. All the spaces in the world would'nt have helped me looking for a web site............. :rolleyes:

WheelerDealer

12-19-2004, 06:13 PM

rossdbos originally posted...
Also, mandatory air system for capsules with a minimum 30-50 lb. bottle are in order
I unfortunately have never got to see a circle boat race in person, but I have seen many drag boat races and being a diver/technical diver/wreck/cave and rescue I can tell you that there are some potentialy fatal flaws in the air systems some of these guys use. First of all the above statement by rossdbos is a good place to start since most of the drag boat guy I saw were running pretty small tanks. Also, the quick disconnect fittings the guys had on their regulators were the type used and designed for BC inflation and I can assure you that in an excited or panic situation their second stages would NOT be able to deliver enough air through those fittings. I realize that most of these individuals probably aren't divers and don't really know much about life support under water, but somebody in the know really needs to address these issues. A breathing system does you no good what so ever if it fails when you need it most.
rossdbos also posted...
As far as your incident- I have spoken to several capsule mfgs. and to the captain of my rescue unit and all agree that nowadays they use a "pinger" that is installed in the capsule and immediately goes on when inverted or water hits it.
This is definitely the way to do it, and a strobe wouldn't hurt either although the strobe wouldn't be of much help in muddy/murky water.
Another thought is that it would be paramount for all the capsules to operate in the same manner as far as attachment points, air systems, and lid operation for the sake of the rescue guys. Remember, those guys are super stressed too in rescue situatiuations and need to be able to rely on repetitive training. It would be a bad deal if they had to first figure out which capsule and air system the guy that just crashed had instead of getting to him RIGHT NOW!!!

Moneypitt

12-19-2004, 06:46 PM

Wheelerdealer, thanks for the info. I knew there was alot of information here that was never thought about when considering a capsule. These are the things that need to be etched in stone before we just go helter skelter into what we think is the right/safe thing to do.........Uniformity is tough when we're coming from all different directions. I don't have an APBA rule book here, can someone post the section on capsules??.........MP

FlatRacer

12-19-2004, 08:36 PM

Again, capsules are a safety option, no one here is trying to MAKE anyone use a capsule that doesn't want one, only trying to figure a less expensive way for those that want the extra measure of safety they seem to offer.
Has the APBA Inboard Board Of Governors changed their mind on the 3 year phase in of mandatory capsules, and finally come around to adopt the position I've held all along; that it should be the driver's choice?
Like I said, I've been away from the sport, so I'm not up on the latest developments.
Money is not an issue in my mind. To spend $25K to $30K on a boat and quibble over $5K for something that will save your life, now THAT'S assinine. That is as long as you really believe that it really will save your life. My contention has always been that we can't take for granted that it will. Yes, in some, hell, I'll even say many cases it will save lives, but I believe it has cost nearly as many lives as it saves (I have a list of names of people that I believe have been killed by capsules in Drags, Offshore, Mod VP, etc. that I will provide at a later date), hence the need for a "Pro-Choice" policy on the use of capsules.
Eric

Moneypitt

12-19-2004, 10:11 PM

Eric, I agree that spending the extra $ in a 25-30K boat is a no brainer. But, so many flatbottom racers run older boats and race on shoestring budgets. To change now creates an expense that quite frankly would prevent them from racing. This is why I am asking questions, trying to standardize systems, and use the strength of numbers to reduce costs. To see what others are doing, ask about doing it myself, teaming up with people that know something about the methods involved, and get the "plans" in the hands of the "do it yourself" boat racers. Its really amazing what you can accomplish once someone tells you that you can't do it. Input from rescue workers, divers, drivers, owners, and even spectators certainly can't hurt. Are capsules the "sure thing" safety item in everyones minds, NO! Again, IMO they are a safety option that I want to know more about......Has APBA lightened up? Well, sorta, "recomended" is a word I'm hearing more of, My questions were not driven by any rules, just a desire to know the straight poop from the people that know, yourself included.........Thanks for your input........MP

FlatRacer

12-20-2004, 03:51 PM

Apparently you and I are in agreement about capsules being optional. Where you and I differ is in the area of what to do for the "shoestring budget" racer. You seem to think that there should be an "affordable" capsule whereas, I'm of the opinion that once a racer decides that a capsule is the way to go, nothing but the best should do. After all, we're talking about saving lives, so who wants to endorse a "budget priced life saving device"?
I think a better way to cut the cost of participation for the shoestring set (of which I'm a charter member) and those with with older hulls is to limit what could be spent on an engine. A spec engine available from only one supplier in a flatbottom would be my dream class.
If you would indulge me for a couple paragraphs, I'd like to outline what I would call a Stock Ski Racing Runabout (as opposed to Super Stock):
Take the same engine currently in use for the APBA Offshore Factory classes, put on an 830 cfm Holley and a set of headers, bolt it into a flatbottom and you've got a competitive 100+ mph "drivers" class. For that matter, you could even go with a Small Block and still have a 100 mph boat.
Engine longevity would be of paramount importance, so rev limiters would be mandatory, and RPM chips could be tested randomly and OFTEN to insure compliance. Strenghtening modifications that don't add horsepower, ie; stud girdles, accusumps, jesel belts, etc. would be encouraged.
Minimum weight limits could be set high so that older hulls and former K-Boat hulls would still be competitive. Capsules, of course, would be optional, but there would be no weight breaks or other unfair advantages offered as an "incentive" for their use. There would still be plenty of room to experiment with props, gears, weight distribution, etc.
I see no reason why we can't have a flatbottom class for which you could buy an engine that A) would be the same as everyone else's engine, B) you could run all season long, and C) you wouldn't have to take out a second mortgage to pay for. If it were reasonably priced, most teams could buy two and have an honest shot at a class championship. An added benefit would be closer competition (aka, more RACING, fewer parades). For once, we'd get to see who can drive, instead of who's got the biggest wallet.
Sound good? Let's do it! C'mon! I'd be first in line to sign up for such a class. Anyone with me?
Please bounce back and forth your ideas with me. Maybe this class could become a reality, and I would finally have a good reason to pull the Bezer out of the garage!
Eric Tolnes

Kurtis500

12-20-2004, 05:16 PM

but I believe it has cost nearly as many lives as it saves (I have a list of names of people that I believe have been killed by capsules in Drags................
Eric
Maybe the other racing associations, but not the drags. 5 so far in capsules including Hipwell ( :( ) Now compare those numbers over the last 17 years with capsules in contrast to 1985-86, or even 1980 through 1986. See how many you come up with. The number also doesn't include debilitating injuries that never happened due to the safety of a capsule.
Lets see:
Cecil Florence
Billy Todd
Dave Nolte
Bill Hartman
Jim Benson
Jimmy Wright.....

Moneypitt

12-20-2004, 05:16 PM

Again we're in agreement. Wallet size should not be the deciding factor in any racing. I call your dream class "Super Sport" racing, and limit the gear/prop used and "claimer engines" that could be purchased from the top 3 in any heat at the end of the event. A reasonable claiming amount would have to be established, and cheaters would soon be exposed by the buyers of the cheaters engines.
The subject of reasonable capsules, not cheap capsules, needs to be addressed even with the limitations in class you mentioned. I do not buy $10. motorcycle helmets...... ........... .......... The capsules needed for circle racing are quite different from the drag hydro boats. It is this difference that I'm trying to explore, and find specs to relate to suppliers/builders for consideration. Anyone that builds one, will have to destroy it in testing, and relate that info to the next prototype. THIS could get expensive, but once these factors are established mass production should bring the prices down....down within reach of us shoestring budget racers that might want the safety option of a capsule.............MP

kipperps28

12-20-2004, 06:55 PM

I am all for an affordable flatbottom class, but keeping speeds to "100 mph+" and no further safety measure will continue to get guys killed. It has been proven time and again that guys are wadding up boats at 80-100 mph and are getting hurt just as badly as K boat drivers. In fact, when Gordy tipped over the Hobbit (I was there) and it landed on top of him he was not going very fast. He didn't crash going 130 down the chute- he crashed exiting the turn. I understand that some guys are uncomfortable with capsules and the "what ifs" that go along with them, but to me, I would like to put myself in a situation where I can get myself out of my wrecked boat, not scraped off of it. More boats will come out with capsules as time goes by. There will be fast ones and slow ones, just as with any boat. But the cool thing to me is the guy running it will live to build a better boat.

FlatRacer

12-20-2004, 08:17 PM

Maybe the other racing associations, but not the drags. 5 so far in capsules including Hipwell ( :( ) Now compare those numbers over the last 17 years with capsules in contrast to 1985-86, or even 1980 through 1986. See how many you come up with. The number also doesn't include debilitating injuries that never happened due to the safety of a capsule.
Lets see:
Cecil Florence
Billy Todd
Dave Nolte
Bill Hartman
Jim Benson
Jimmy Wright.....
Tom Gentry (Offshore)
Denver Mullins (Drags)
Tim Capaldi (Drags)
John Hipwell (Drags)
There are others whose names I don't recall, such as the guy who died in a capsuled Mod VP right after capsules were mandated in that division.
I'm not against other people strapping themselves to anchors if really they feel that they (or someone else) can get them out in time. I'm just not gonna do it myself. Besides, I'd rather be a 190 lb. object hitting the water than a part of a 1900 lb. object doing the same and suffering the effects of ten times the hydraulic pressure acting upon my body.
Ultimately, it should be up to the driver, not the sanctioning body, which way he wants to go.
Eric

FlatRacer

12-20-2004, 08:33 PM

I call your dream class "Super Sport" racing, and limit the gear/prop used and "claimer engines" that could be purchased from the top 3 in any heat at the end of the event. A reasonable claiming amount would have to be established, and cheaters would soon be exposed by the buyers of the cheaters engines.
I don't think Claimer engine rules are neccessary if they're built by a single manufacturer (Mercruiser?) and are adequately policed, but if it brings more guests to the party I'll go for it. I'm picturing mounting the rev limiter box out of reach of the driver, and when a boat pulls back to the beach after a heat, an inspector can grab the chip out of the box and perform a spot check on it using a hand held analyzer to verify that it's within specs. I don't know how the OPCs inspect their rev limiters, I should find out.
I also wouldn't limit prop selection because no two props are alike despite whatever numbers get stamped on them. And I'd still like to be able to change gears to accomodate different courses. Gears are inexpensive and I've never heard of them breaking.
I wonder how much interest there would be in such a class.
Eric

Kurtis500

12-20-2004, 09:08 PM

Tom Gentry (Offshore)
Denver Mullins (Drags)
Tim Capaldi (Drags)
John Hipwell (Drags)
There are others whose names I don't recall such as the guy who died in a capsuled Mod VP right after capsules were mandated in that division.
I'm not against other people strapping themselves to anchors if really they feel that they (or someone else) can get them out in time. I'm just not gonna do it myself. Besides, I'd rather be a 190 lb. object hitting the water than part of a 1900 lb. object doing the same and suffering the effects of ten times the hydraulic pressure acting upon my body.
Ultimately it should be up to the driver, not the sanctioning body, which way he wants to go.
Eric
Again, the capsules are diffrent in Mod VP. On top of this, the last seven years before Hipwell has had no fatalities in a capsule drag boat crash. Those drivers above and the others I have missed went in a few years time, less than the 7 years I just stated. Theres no comparison... I dont think we should go back through a 17 year comparison on drag boats prior to 1987 and see how many fatalities there were, the facts are out there and the research is straight forward. As for the other associations, I dont know thier capsule set-up and wont comment on them.
hmmm, I posted my comment before but deleted it. I'll have another go at it.
Howabout a 190 ilb object hitting the water and a 1900ilbs object hitting you after? Guys -plural- have been KILLED that way.
Something that strikes me as damn near entertaining is when people tell me they would rather be thrown from a rolling/crashing vehicle than to be seatbelted inside. As a fireman for the city of Phoenix and surrounding area over the last 13 years I can promise you that is a farce. I seen about a dozen people that have been ejected just in time for the car to roll over them. Result was the same everytime-dead. Being contained in the vehicle may have saved every one of them, but who would know now. Although its not a boat, the traumatic injuries are the same..blunt traum etc..
I agree with you that capsules shouldn't be forced. But consider this. Seatbelts were an option for most of us at one time too. Some of our cars like my dads 64 chevy truck doesn't even have them. Over the years there have been enough serious injuries and deaths that would have been prevented with a seatbelt, many of those people getting thrown from a vehicle, that the governments and industries in the transportation biz said 'enough'. Insurance companies and vehicle manufacturers along with legislaters now force you to wear it by law. Because your own wellbeing depends on it, and those who pay for the injuries are going to withdraw themselves from your liability if you dont. One day, the sanctioning bodies may get the same squeeze from the insurers and etc. that requiring it may be thier only option.

gnRacer98

12-20-2004, 09:35 PM

Gus died from injuries sustained from a 1900 lbs. boat landing on him, TWICE. He had just exited the pin not more than a 100yds. earlier, I doubt he was going 100mph. Like the other 4 drivers that have died in just the past 3 years, on the west coast alone, they died from impact injuries the human body could not withstand. An 80 mph spec class does not resolve this issue.

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-20-2004, 09:56 PM

Again, the capsules are diffrent in Mod VP. On top of this, the last seven years before Hipwell has had no fatalities in a capsule drag boat crash. Those drivers above and the others I have missed went in a few years time, less than the 7 years I just stated. Theres no comparison... I dont think we should go back through a 17 year comparison on drag boats prior to 1987 and see how many fatalities there were, the facts are out there and the research is straight forward. As for the other associations, I dont know thier capsule set-up and wont comment on them.
hmmm, I posted my comment before but deleted it. I'll have another go at it.
Howabout a 190 ilb object hitting the water and a 1900ilbs object hitting you after? Guys -plural- have been KILLED that way.
Something that strikes me as damn near entertaining is when people tell me they would rather be thrown from a rolling/crashing vehicle than to be seatbelted inside. As a fireman for the city of Phoenix and surrounding area over the last 13 years I can promise you that is a farce. I seen about a dozen people that have been ejected just in time for the car to roll over them. Result was the same everytime-dead. Being contained in the vehicle may have saved every one of them, but who would know now. Although its not a boat, the traumatic injuries are the same..blunt traum etc..
I agree with you that capsules shouldn't be forced. But consider this. Seatbelts were an option for most of us at one time too. Some of our cars like my dads 64 chevy truck doesn't even have them. Over the years there have been enough serious injuries and deaths that would have been prevented with a seatbelt, many of those people getting thrown from a vehicle, that the governments and industries in the transportation biz said 'enough'. Insurance companies and vehicle manufacturers along with legislaters now force you to wear it by law.
I agree that capsules are a necessity in Dragboat racing but circle racing is much different. The circle guys of the southwest generally run 1 pin turn courses. This means they hairpin on 1 buoy before making thier way back down course to another hairpin turn. I would say about 9 out of 10 flips are roll overs in the turn at relatively slow speeds. Generally the guys walk away with little more than bumps and bruises.
When Johnny Ray's capsule gn flipped it was Bob Teague towing Johnny's boat upright that saved Johnny, not the divers.
I know the drag boat guys have great rescue teams but the circle guys I shoot have a variety of different rescue teams.
Jerry

Kurtis500

12-21-2004, 12:27 AM

I agree that capsules are a necessity in Dragboat racing but circle racing is much different. The circle guys of the southwest generally run 1 pin turn courses. This means they hairpin on 1 buoy before making thier way back down course to another hairpin turn. I would say about 9 out of 10 flips are roll overs in the turn at relatively slow speeds. Generally the guys walk away with little more than bumps and bruises.
When Johnny Ray's capsule gn flipped it was Bob Teague towing Johnny's boat upright that saved Johnny, not the divers.
I know the drag boat guys have great rescue teams but the circle guys I shoot have a variety of different rescue teams.
Jerry
Circle racing is different, but it looks like they are going through the same problem the drag boats did in 86 or so. The dilema of high fatality rates is not on its way, its here. Making this more of a dilema, is the drivers who have been killed, all or most were top shelf experienced drivers. The difficulty of seeing to the side is workable with different capsule and driver restraint requirements, and/or changing your course to more than 1 pin turns. Its not unimaginable or impossible. A TFH capsule could be considered overkill for a 'standard' capsule in a SS boat.
If Johnny Ray was the guy at Parker 4 years ago or so, I watched that unfold and waited at the ramp for them to bring him in. He was darn close to drowning while sitting in the boat underwater.
There is more than 'forcing' a racer to buy something that can kill a sport. For example. My wife and I were standing on the beach in Parker when an SS boat crashed in 96' killing the driver. We were watching him for about 10 seconds before the crashed and watched every step take place. We even went to the outramp were they brought him in hoping there was some sign of life. Now, obviously my wife has no 'big' problem with racing or I wouldn't be doing it. However, she never has really found the desire to go back to Parker for the races after the crash. Or to watch the sunset drags at Apache Lake where we witnessed another guy directly in front of us get killed racing. Something about seeing somebody get killed at a 'race' makes some never want to go back. If it happens enough times in front of enough people (with a small association like SS's, K's) the crowd will filter away.

Sanger D

12-21-2004, 08:48 AM

my sister was killed in a auto acc. 2 years ago,"MAN I MISS HER" she was in a high speed roll over and partially ejected, she had a seat belt on but was reclined in the seat,of course the belt could not work properly so she turned into a satistic.BUT, the guy drivin and my 14 yold neice walked away.They were seat belted in properly.My sis had a choice and she choosed the wrong one.It wasent the seat belt either.The guy driven was on methemphedymine and had been up for days ,she knew this and still got in a car with the prick, Bad choice!!.I guess what I,m trying to say is"and don,t whant to sound political" is its about choice.But in 160 mph and up drag boats,who would even want to be in a uncapseled boat.I can sympethize with the sprint boat guys when it comes to there issue.My biggist fear when I raced cracker boxes wasnt hittin the water or boat as much as it was being hit by another guy coming into a turn and t bonen me,"witch almost happened more than once".Very very diff. kind of boating than draggin,3 to 4 times the boats doin the same thing that yer doin.Unless YOU,VE been out htere in the heat of comp., its will be diff. for anyone to understand.It should be a choice to do it and it is!!.GUS was a AWESOME person,father,friend,husband,but he knew the job was dangerous when he took it.He LOVED what he did and deid doin it.We should all be so lucky, and if you could ask him know ,he,ed tell ya the same thing.I know I could afford to race again but things would be tight,but if I had to build a capsuled boattheres NO WAY it could happen with out it being subst. cheaper.So if someone wants to race a boat that is,nt caps.,let him its there choice,but I can garentee you there will be more collisions with sprint boats goin into and comin out of turns if there capsulized,its danm hard now to see a boat let alone seeing one from in a box.But maybe its gonna weed out the more finac. challenged racer from being abled to meet req. like it has in drag racin.That will totally suck!!.So my opinion in sprint boating would be, boaters choice and caps. guy,s gotta have big ole outside rearview mirrors or it will get messy in the turns. WHEW, I,m tired now man!!
HAPPY HOLIDAYS GENTS Sanger D

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-21-2004, 09:09 AM

Circle racing is different, but it looks like they are going through the same problem the drag boats did in 86 or so. The dilema of high fatality rates is not on its way, its here. Making this more of a dilema, is the drivers who have been killed, all or most were top shelf experienced drivers. The difficulty of seeing to the side is workable with different capsule and driver restraint requirements, and/or changing your course to more than 1 pin turns. Its not unimaginable or impossible. A TFH capsule could be considered overkill for a 'standard' capsule in a SS boat.
If Johnny Ray was the guy at Parker 4 years ago or so, I watched that unfold and waited at the ramp for them to bring him in. He was darn close to drowning while sitting in the boat underwater.
There is more than 'forcing' a racer to buy something that can kill a sport. For example. My wife and I were standing on the beach in Parker when an SS boat crashed in 96' killing the driver. We were watching him for about 10 seconds before the crashed and watched every step take place. We even went to the outramp were they brought him in hoping there was some sign of life. Now, obviously my wife has no 'big' problem with racing or I wouldn't be doing it. However, she never has really found the desire to go back to Parker for the races after the crash. Or to watch the sunset drags at Apache Lake where we witnessed another guy directly in front of us get killed racing. Something about seeing somebody get killed at a 'race' makes some never want to go back. If it happens enough times in front of enough people (with a small association like SS's, K's) the crowd will filter away.
At many venues the superstocks race at, the event promoter requests the hairpin courses. They prefer the high level of action they bring. Burleys course is a multi pin and windsor is a triangle. Parker has been set up both as a multi pin and single pin sometimes combining the two. Long beach isn't wide enough to run multi pin turns. Essentially the 2 pin courses aren't the problem, its the straight-a-way crashes that are deadly. The problem is designing a capsule that will not hamper the drivers view (an absolute necessity for the courses they run) and having a consistant rescue at every race trained for whatever safety devices are in place. With all the current circle guys building capsules, I would like to see them all band together and build just 1, while keeping us southwest 2 pin course guys in mind.
With that said, I still feel the capsules should be drivers choice in circle racing. Without a unilaterally agreed upon capsule and a rescue team trained specifically for it, I would hate to see a mandate. These boats bump over in the turns often and I would hate to see more flips or collisions as a result of impaired vision. Also, we don't need more tragedy as a result of rescue having whatever sort of complication from the common turn roll over that would have otherwise been a clean toss out and walk a way.
I have seen and taped most of the fatalities listed in this entire thread. I do believe modern capsules in drag boats are a necessity. The circle boat deal still needs more r & d and quite frankly the majority of racers I know are mostly against the capsules in circle boats.
Jerry

rossdbos

12-21-2004, 09:29 AM

First and foremost, this has been one of the best threads in a long time. Opinions both pro and con with legitimate concerns on both sides of the fence. One thing I have been reading between the lines is that those in favor of capsules do feel that it's time to start working in that direction for flats and V's. On the other hand those that don't will never feel it's time. I understand both sides. The facts are clear- drivers will continually get injured, maimed, or killed without some type of protection between himself/herself the boat and the water. Bravado and historic nature aside, it is interesting to note that many out there feel the cost is going to be insurmountable. Quite the contrary and I've found out. For around $10K (the price of a good paint job and set of rod's) a driver can put a capsule w/ restraint system, air system, pinger and radio communication. Also, it's non-sense to believe that more injuries will be caused by "drivers in a box" - why don't you go look at the Tunnels, Hydro's, etc. especially the Tunnels where they line up 20-30 boats side by side and pull 5-7 g's next to each other in the corner. As a former driver that raced in and out of capsules I can tell you first hand that what periphery you think you lose you make up for with rear view mirrors and radio communication.
When you get right down to it you want the capsule to sustain the impact not your body. Everytime I wrecked in a capsule- blown over, barrel rolled, hit by another boat, etc. the capsule did it's job and protected my sorry a$$! The capsule was fixed and I continued to race. I realize inboard capsules will have to be different but the prinicipal is the same. we sit on the edge of the great abyss and it's menacing but as racers we must move forward and innovate.
V-Drive- Yes, Teague saved Johnny's bacon and I mentioned I then set out to get better rescue and now have the best- NJBA Team Rescue but you are failing to acknowledge that Johnny, though almost drowned due to his own stupidity (ie:cut a hole in the capsule, not wearing his air system, and no flotation) when revived was completely unscathed- NO INJURIES and the boat landed on top of him!
Eric: In no way are we speaking of mandating capsules. I knew the Mod VP driver - Red Hindman and his capsule failed for a variety of reasons- homemade capsule, belts that were not affixed correctly. Technology has advanced well beyond these primitive measures.
I also knew Capaldi, Mullins and many others who passed away. Again, back at that time strobes, no pingers, drag capsules weren't SFI spec mandated etc. The capsule again is not to be considered a "fail safe" only a means by which the driver has protection between himself, the boat and the water and in some cases other boats.
Certainly the technology is continually evovling and I spoke with Tracy at TNT capsules and it was his capsule that Hipwell was in when the accident happened. It was a SFI spec capsule and as I'm told the boat came down nose first straight into the water at around 240 mph and motor let go and came straight through the back of the capsule. Braaksma is having another capsule built roughly double the SFI spec. But the lesson is that at that speed even capsules have their failings. Now, lets look at the comparison- 240+ mph or 110 mph (less than half) it doesn't take a rocket scientist such as myself to understand that the stresses are much different. Don't get me wrong but to compare a TFH to a SS, PS or GN is apples with oranges. except to say they are all fruit.
I also noted in this thread that a majority of opinions against capsules are coming from those that don't race. Yes, Eric is a former racer but I think there is enough concern by the current active racers to warrant moving the capsule situation forward - just ask Dave Rankin, Jeff Wooton, Doug Lightfoot, John Bonnici, Pat Hoban, etc. that are currently working on capsules for their boats. These are some of the best drivers/owners that we have in the flat/V ranks and they are standing up and taking notice.
Last, I'll say it again- NO ONE IS ADVOCATING MANDATORY CAPSULES!
I agree it's the driver's choice!
Ross

126driver

12-21-2004, 10:32 AM

I'll throw in my .02:
IF the things that Jerry and others mentioned were addressed, ie. decent visibility inside the capsule, standardized capsules with standardized hatch releases, standardized air requirements, established radio/spotter protocol, and a trained, dedicated rescue, then by all means I think capsules are the way to go. Until then, it is my opinion that I am much better off in an open boat.

Kurtis500

12-21-2004, 10:46 AM

First - They are an option right NOW! right?
Second - It hasn't fixed the problem.
Regardless of the hope you place in people to develop a good functional capsule, some will never buy it. In fact MOST. I cant see the manufacturers falling over themselves to build something with that kind of market outlook. When given the OPTION to loose the extra weight for a better chance to win, the same injury problems will stick around and we will be debating it again...and again...and again....
I do believe modern capsules in drag boats are a necessity. The circle boat deal still needs more r & d and quite frankly the majority of racers I know are mostly against the capsules in circle boats.
Jerry
20 years ago you would have been the minority thinking like that. I thought it was bad decision too. Funny how time gives a measure of common sense.

rossdbos

12-21-2004, 10:57 AM

126:
Absolutely and that is exactly what we are hard at work on. The capsule that is being proposed for PRO STOCK/GN application has a larger winshield with better visibilty and max periphery. Remember, it is ridiculous to believe that some view will not be obstructed however, unless you have already driven in a capsule, you get used to your mirrors and the sound of your spotters voice.
Rescue has been advising and standardized harness, air systems and mandatory capsule training for the drivers with rescue (and by the way the rescue at events that SS/PRO STOCKS/GN attend have capusule trained rescue and divers).
The air bottle for circle boat application that is being standardized is a rated 1 hour bottle/50 lb. bottle to insure enough O2 for during the heat and in case of incident (adrenaline) a smaller 30 min. bottle is also being considered for the Pro-Stock capsule due to the fact the driver only races 4 or 5 laps (usually a max of 4-5 minutes per heat).
Now, your spotter(s) will do like any other spotter learns - to talk when necessary and to keep quiet when necessary. This is a relationship between the driver and his spotter(s). To be qualified mean to understand and alert the driver to boats either trying to pass (inside or out) or know where other boats are on the course with relation to that driver.
Scott, V-Drive and others - a lot of thought, discussion has gone on regarding these and other issues but let me assure you this will be the way to go very soon!
Ross

FlatRacer

12-21-2004, 12:50 PM

Howabout a 190 ilb object hitting the water and a 1900ilbs object hitting you after? Guys -plural- have been KILLED that way.
Something that strikes me as damn near entertaining is when people tell me they would rather be thrown from a rolling/crashing vehicle than to be seatbelted inside. As a fireman for the city of Phoenix and surrounding area over the last 13 years I can promise you that is a farce. I seen about a dozen people that have been ejected just in time for the car to roll over them. Result was the same everytime-dead. Being contained in the vehicle may have saved every one of them, but who would know now. Although its not a boat, the traumatic injuries are the same..blunt traum etc...
Kurtis 500: Everything you say is true, however racing is an inherently dangerous sport and there is always the risk of fatality. I weigh the risks every time I get in my boat. It may sound morose, but maybe what we really have to ask ourselves is "If I'm going to die out there, how would I rather die? Would I rather get hit by another boat and die quickly, or would I prefer to slowly and consciously drown?" That's not a question anyone can answer for anyone else.
You're absolutely 100% correct about seatbelts, but only inasmuch as it applies to land vehicles. Statistically, there's not a lot of risk of being trapped in a sinking car and drowning. Would seatbelts work on a motorcycle? How about snowmobiles? One solution does not fit all cases.
I was on a Donzi site once when they were discussing safety devices for toddlers. Someone suggested bolting seatbelts in the rear bench seat so they could attach their car seat. I had to rip him a new asshole for that one. Just the thought of it makes me crazy. When it comes to water vehicles, your seatbelt argument doesn't hold water (sorry, couldn't resist the pun).
Eric

FlatRacer

12-21-2004, 01:30 PM

I'm told the boat came down nose first straight into the water at around 240 mph and motor let go and came straight through the back of the capsule.
Wow. Sounds like a good place NOT to be. I'm not say everyone would always be safer bouncing across the water away from the boat, but it sure sounds like getting away from it would've save his ass here.
Just underscores the need for a Pro Choice policy.
Eric

rrrr

12-21-2004, 01:40 PM

This thread is very interesting. Props to all you guys for sharing info and analysis. I don't race boats, but certainly safety is a discussion everyone should participate in. The type of racing I work in produces 200 MPH + crashes. It's tough to see your friends badly injured or even killed, so I understand the need and motivation for the capsule debate.
.
I've seen about a dozen people that have been ejected just in time for the car to roll over them. Result was the same everytime-dead. Being contained in the vehicle may have saved every one of them, but who would know now. Although its not a boat, the traumatic injuries are the same..blunt traum etc..
The trajectory of the person and the car are always similar; this scenario has been repeated time after time. I have had two friends killed in separate rollovers. One was on a residential street going 30 MPH around a slight curve, he hit the curb and died in someone's front yard.
One of my younger brothers rolled his car while goofing around in the desert, his head hit the closed passenger window and broke it out, but he stayed in the car. If the window had been down or if the door would have opened, he would have been dead.
Always wear your belts.

Kurtis500

12-21-2004, 02:00 PM

Kurtis 500: Everything you say is true, however racing is an inherently dangerous sport and there is always the risk of fatality. I weigh the risks every time I get in my boat. It may sound morose, but maybe what we really have to ask ourselves is "If I'm going to die out there, how would I rather die? Would I rather get hit by another boat and die quickly, or would I prefer to slowly and consciously drown?" That's not a question anyone can answer for anyone else.
You're absolutely 100% correct about seatbelts, but only inasmuch as it applies to land vehicles. Statistically, there's not a lot of risk of being trapped in a sinking car and drowning. Would seatbelts work on a motorcycle? How about snowmobiles? One solution does not fit all cases.
I was on a Donzi site once when they were discussing safety devices for toddlers. Someone suggested bolting seatbelts in the rear bench seat so they could attach their car seat. I had to rip him a new asshole for that one. Just the thought of it makes me crazy. When it comes to water vehicles, your seatbelt argument doesn't hold water (sorry, couldn't resist the pun).
Eric
Your scenario of choosing how to die is what holds no water. You wont choose it, and in a race you still wont have a choice because you wont be trying to do it. It could be made for you.
I'll address your motorcycle argument like this. Dont ride one. You know the stats on motorcycle accidents compared to vehicle accidents with restrained occupants. No comparison. 8 times liklier to die than an unrestrained occupant...again, thats 8 times more likely. Now would you rather be seatbelted in a car or fly through the air off a motorcycle? Some of the most amazing things I've seen were motorcycle wrecks.
To work it from another angle, look at the fatal injuries and formulate your plan to avoid them. If most or all were blunt trauma then there needs to be a way to stop the forces from causing the injury to the body during a crash. How is a choice going to accomplish this? We cant point the finger at driver experience because (Lance, Gus, Hoban and others) were all cream of the crop.
The seatbelt rule can crossreference to the restraining used in drag boat capsules and what kind of effect they have had over the last 17 years. Plenty of data there flatracer, and enough for the capsule makers to draw logical conclusions from when mapping out a capsule design for a circle boat.
(disclaimer to all--I'm not trying to force you guys to put capsules in your boats, just listing some important info to consider)

Sanger D

12-21-2004, 03:11 PM

I think back when I was racing 'and still do on the river",and I would love a gurantee ,but there are none. this is gonna hurt circle boating.Theres not many people in the sprint boat family,notlike all other types of racing, so it is a matter of how much is it gonna cost the racer?.These are not big sponsered, big money people,there business owners and college fund spenders "little joke there" but really,pro choice man, don,t let this become manditory.If these gents in a boat haulin ass dont want to get hurt,or take that chance that there takin then they would,nt do it.They do it because they love it.Now you "who ever" want to come in and start saying its too dangerous,we need capsules,so, put a capsule on your boat!! but don,t make the next guy do if he does,nt want to,or will you tell him he cant race there or here,this has nothing to do with seatbelts or AUTO restraining.If this type of racing scares you DON,T do it,no one is making you.but don,t start changing the rules in the middle of the gamewhen they,ve always been there,by making some one else do the same thing you want to do.PRO CHOISE.Death sucks but its part of life,put yourself in a capsule your whole racing career and you end up dying in a plane crash! so whats next?You can only fly now if you bring your own parachute?If the capsule makes you feel better than by all means,get one , but DON,T MAKE IT MANDITORY!!!,SH$#@T, with all the laws out there with are kinda boating we have now , and people want to bring more to the track.Keep it up people and ALL are flats goin over 80 will need to be capsuled or slowed down even if there not on a course,sounds stupid or sarcastic?.DOES NOW,but not too far down the road is it!.We need this to be the disicion of the driver ONLY,what ever HE/she feels fit,not a commitees.this almost sounds like a capsule makers idea or a scared boater,sorry ,but I am really trying not to sound like a prick,and if you think I am then hey Merry christmas,I do care about my fellow boaters, thats why I,m speaking up.It should remain their choice!!! so with that note EVERYONE PLEASE have a merry christmas and remember,JESUS IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON!!!!!!!! Sanger D

FlatRacer

12-21-2004, 04:12 PM

Your scenario of choosing how to die is what holds no water. You wont choose it, and in a race you still wont have a choice because you wont be trying to do it. It could be made for you.
I'll address your motorcycle argument like this. Dont ride one. You know the stats on motorcycle accidents compared to vehicle accidents with restrained occupants. No comparison. 8 times liklier to die than an unrestrained occupant...again, thats 8 times more likely. Now would you rather be seatbelted in a car or fly through the air off a motorcycle? Some of the most amazing things I've seen were motorcycle wrecks.
To work it from another angle, look at the fatal injuries and formulate your plan to avoid them. If most or all were blunt trauma then there needs to be a way to stop the forces from causing the injury to the body during a crash. How is a choice going to accomplish this? We cant point the finger at driver experience because (Lance, Gus, Hoban and others) were all cream of the crop.
The seatbelt rule can crossreference to the restraining used in drag boat capsules and what kind of effect they have had over the last 17 years. Plenty of data there flatracer, and enough for the capsule makers to draw logical conclusions from when mapping out a capsule design for a circle boat.
(disclaimer to all--I'm not trying to force you guys to put capsules in your boats, just listing some important info to consider)
I agree with you about the motorcycles. I live in a city where the people drive like idiots. I would not ride a motorcycle in my hometown. I look at what happens (I have lots of relatives who work in health care, and I've heard plenty of horror stories), and weigh the factors, and ultimately I choose abstain from something that I'm sure I would enjoy immensely. When I retire and move to America, where it's not so crowded, I may re-evaluate that decision.
No, I can't make the decision of how I'm going to die, but I can make decisions on what steps I can take to minimize the risk and improve my chances in an accident. And I still feel that my chances are better alone on top of the water that strapped into a boat.
Look, I don't fasten the chin strap on my helmet (I velcro it and wear shoulder straps) because I feel there's less of a chance that something will hit my head after the water takes it off, than there is of the helmet bucketing and trying to rip my head off. That's a decision I made for myself alone after thinking long and hard about it.
Racing's dangerous and boat racing's especially dangerous. I applaud the efforts of those who are trying to make it less so, but what works for one type of boat is not neccessarily the answer for all. Why have Crackerboxes had so few fatalities? What have they had, one death in the long history of the class? If I were go by the data, I'd sell the Bezer and buy a Cracker.
If my son wants to race when he's older I'm going to steer him away from boats and into cars where he'll be safer (and probably a lot less frustrated).
Eric

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-21-2004, 04:41 PM

....by the way the rescue at events that SS/PRO STOCKS/GN attend have capusule trained rescue and divers).
Ross
Ross,
I know I'm viewd upon as a non-racer but I may return someday. My brothers SS boat should be ready by May and we have 2 more race boats in the family. Racers or not, everyone contributing to this thread and not, has a vested interest in safety.
Its great to see the NJBA rescue at scsc events. I am aware of the extensive training and practice these guys go through. When we race in Burley the sherrifs dept handles rescue. These guys are top notch but I doubt they practice capsule recovery. I'm not saying it can't happen but we aren't there yet. If everyone had a "like system" as the drag guys do, It would make the capsule training universal and knock down 1 more hurdle.
When Johnny Ray crashed his gn, his capsule may have protected him from the boat or not. He may have been thrown clear, who knows. His chest was black and blue from the belts and impact.
I would like to see...
1 universal capsule of everyones liking with full visibility
Rescue trained for said capsule at every venue
Drivers choice for or against regardless.
Jerry :cool:

rossdbos

12-21-2004, 05:14 PM

Jerry:
Never said that you or non-racers don't have right to their opinion, in fact quite the opposite- I think this is a great thread and value mostly everyone's opinion. Your points were right on regarding standarization of capsules, training, etc. and again we agree not to mandate capsules. My only point regarding non-racers was that they seem the most vocal against CAPSULES and I would love to see more driver's weigh in, like 126 and others.
I believe 126 said (I'm paraphrasing) "that if the items you mentioned were standardized and proven then he would even consider a capsule."
That's what I'm looking for, DRIVER'S who are planning on racing this season with an open mind rather than taking the familiar tone - it's the "C" word therefore we shouldn't discuss it! Discussion on this subject is healthy and definitely there are two sides to this arguement.
Ooh, almost forgot, with respect to Johnny's accident- the boat chined left and right several times before it finally went all the way over and sunk (I was out in the pontoon boat starting the race and it happened right in front of me less than 25 feet from where I was sitting in the toolies) No question that the boat would have hit him at some point during the roll over- regardless of the fact of what might have happened I would rather be black and blue and sore then DEAD!
Ross

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-21-2004, 05:48 PM

Jerry:
Ooh, almost forgot, with respect to Johnny's accident- the boat chined left and right several times before it finally went all the way over and sunk (I was out in the pontoon boat starting the race and it happened right in front of me less than 25 feet from where I was sitting in the toolies) No question that the boat would have hit him at some point during the roll over- regardless of the fact of what might have happened I would rather be black and blue and sore then DEAD!
Ross
Ross,
I sold Johnny's video clip to 3 different tv shows. I have it on tape about as good as it gets. He could have been thrown clear just the same. He couldn't get the seat belts unbuckled and thats what nearly drowned him.
We will never know the "what ifs" of that flip but we do know when Johnny returned, it was in an open cockpit boat. ;)
Ross, I like and respect you too much to argue, so stop it. :D
Jerry

rossdbos

12-21-2004, 06:41 PM

Jerry:
No argument and the feelings mutual, just a dose of healthy discussion tempered with conviction from both view points. Speak to ya soon.
To the rest of the group, especially those planning on racing in '05 what are your thoughts as they do count in shaping the future of circle boats in our region and perhaps nationwide.
Ross :wink:

Kurtis500

12-21-2004, 08:31 PM

So if you want the status quo, which is to make it an option, then you will get the same results. Maybe a few will 'volunteer' to use them, but in the face of stiff competition who doesn't, why?
I'm fine with it. I dont race a circle boat and usually dont see them unless they are racing with us at the drags. I think AVOIDABLE (remember that word, avoidable) deaths are not worth repeating. I already know you cant stop tragedies, but in some cases you can reduce them way down. hmm,,, see where the seatbelt analogy came in? Sometimes all you need is a little innovation and a semi-open mind to get it done.... But I think your ideas about what to do are just 'more of the same'. :confused:

Moneypitt

12-21-2004, 09:21 PM

K500, the first part of change is knowledge. If we as a group can gain knowledge about this safety option, then we, as a group can start to make the change. Will this result in a mass movement into the capsule idea? Probably not. But if just a few make the change then it has been worthwhile.(it seems there are several teams making the change right now). I personally have gained some insight, and although I will never push to make capsules mandatory, the next boat that I, as a crew chief, put on the water will have a capsule. Even if it means sitting out a race or two, or a season, I feel the capsules can, and do save lives..................MP

WaterBox

12-22-2004, 10:11 AM

When my boat crashed in '92 it sank and was not found for a few hours due the poor visibility. It was finally found in 10 feet of water upside down firmly stuck in the mud. If I had been strapped into it, I would not be here today to argue with you.
I know what you're going to say. "Well, if it had flotation in it, it wouldn't have sunk". Well, my counter argument to that is if the deck had come off, all that glorious flotation would've been bobbing merrily atop the surface of the lake while me and my capsule (which is bolted or glassed to the same pair of stringers as my 600 lb. engine) sunk in the mud like a stone.
Eric Tolnes
Former SS, PS, CanAm
I have heard that If the boat is foamed right the deck shouldn't come off, and the foam will add strength to the boat..

126driver

12-22-2004, 10:44 AM

I have heard that If the boat is foamed right the deck shouldn't come off, and the foam will add strength to the boat..
This boat stuff I just guess at :D but when you're talking foam, that's right up my alley - I'm a sprayed polyurethane foam roofing contractor. Usually foam is poured into a boat but the material is the same - the foam will add some structural integrity and stick to whatever it comes into contact with. Just ask Morg - he had to get all of that foam out of the Revenge. :eek: The foam would help but wouldn't necessarily prevent the deck from coming off in a big crash, but the floation should stay in place, unless of course chuncks of it were ripped out along with the deck..

sneed

12-22-2004, 11:05 AM

Jetboatguru

12-22-2004, 04:33 PM

This whole debate is a Pro choice argument. You can look at the statistics and see that the number of people that have died in open boats is steadily growing. How do you argue that? This is a game of odds. A properly set up capsule boat will give you higher odds of surviving a crash. You have air, foam and a cage to protect you. Cutting a hole in your capsule and not wearing your mask, then ratcheting yourself in decreases your odds of survival. One of the biggest problems I see besides vision is the breakaway factor of the capsule. In a Dragboat they are designed to breakaway in a moderate speed impact. In a Circle boat you are faced with a G or two in the turns and this may cause a problem. On one hand you want the capsule to be held in frim enough to withstand the turns but on the other hand you want it to be able to break free from the boat in a moderate impact.
I think you should leave it up to the drivers but the capsule boat should have an allowance for weight. i.e. be able to run a bigger motor or blower or put limitaions on the open boats.

Moneypitt

12-22-2004, 06:40 PM

Tony, yes it has come down to a "choice" debate. As I follow this, the circle capsules are not the seperate on impact type, for the reasons you've stated. Additionally, the circle crashes are usually at a much slower speed than the drag boats that cartwheel in the lights. I think more is being done in the direction of capsules today than anytime in the recent past,(at least out west), and the issue of choice is still at the forefront of any and all discussions, as it must be. If we learn enough about how to do it better, cheaper,(not cheaply), and in a way that more racers can see an advantage in safety without giving up vision or performance, maybe we can move circles on the west coast into the future. BUT, choice is the key word. It is going to be up to the "boat" and "capsule" builders to become "capsuled boat builders". The future is now and circle racing needs to be part of it..........MP

worlds fastest,revenge boats

12-22-2004, 06:43 PM

ok boys and girls lets clear the table on this dead issue about capsules and apba the main problem has not changed one bit (rescue) we can build the right program for the racer but when you dont have the right direction on guide lines on air, belts, latches,windows, and you can not have every body doing there own style so FORGET IT.as for the future if we ever have to with my program of the k,s with ihba at least we have the best in rescue people to handle this side of it.as for the breakway side bad idea. tony the leaps and hops and dives that you have been having would have spit the capsule out. so keeping it solid in the boat is the right choice.the one thing that we have to our side of this is what has been learned in our drag boats.as for the motor changes or weight the concept that we are working on will be the lightest and most visable built yet.as for the people that cry money ,yes it can be done some what low in cost. but have not seen any body slow down on building more motors or bigger trailers.

Moneypitt

12-22-2004, 07:01 PM

Revenge steps in......welcome. I think of Revenge everyday as we run an old Revenge. Are you currently working on, or have you already made a capsuled hull? How can the PS 89 team help? Proto, testing, Our boat lives in BHC, so we're close and ready to do some necessary hull repairs in the areas that would be affected by the change over. Several western teams are moving to the capsules and we would like to be one of them. I'm still pro choice, but looking for the safety option of a capsule........Ray/PS89

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-22-2004, 11:33 PM

as for the people that cry money ,yes it can be done some what low in cost. but have not seen any body slow down on building more motors or bigger trailers.
It sounds to me like the guy with the biggest trailer should have to fund the proposal...hmmmm, who's gonna call Clyde? :)
JG

sneed

12-22-2004, 11:40 PM

Kindsvater Flat

12-22-2004, 11:56 PM

.....2 boats with reinforced cockpits crash at the sametime one on each turn what boat does the rescue save first.
The insured one. :D

126driver

12-23-2004, 06:46 AM

Nobody has asked why the hole was cut in the top of the lid in that boat
OK, not being an ass, just curious. Why?

rossdbos

12-23-2004, 09:08 AM

Johnny:
Glad to see you prowling around and I was wondering when you would chime in- o.k. you admit to not wearing your mask, V-drive said you were black and blue- Blue I'll attest to as I was on the dock when you came in. From what I understand you cut a hole in the top of the capsule because you felt there wouldn't be enough room to get rescue in to extricate and it would have been an easier method to escape- if I'm way off base then please due tell. Flotation, yes their might have been flotation but when you sank like a stone-(no pinger, strobe light, etc.) it was clear there wasn't enough foam or the type of foam that has enough density to float even part of the boat above the waterline. Now the question- two wrecks, separate corners- feasible and definitely a worst case situation, two rescue boats in each corner each equipped with 4-5 trained divers so each rescue boat goes to their respective corner. The same would be true for a non-capsuled boat and the driver spit out. Also, I have 2-3 patrol (not including river closure boats) that can be used at rescues discretion. Again, your accident, while several factors taught all of us a lesson the big picture was in the end you my friend are still around to have these discussions.
Rescue, Mr. Hart - SCSC has the best (has had them for the last 4 years)- NJBA Team Rescue (most of the same guys that crew for IHBA) so that's not an excuse also, Rescue has been advising every step of the way on standardized air, quick release, capsule training and the rest.
Again, not looking for mandatory capsules, just trying to overcome objections and it looks like enough guys are opening their eyes and minds to the fact that the current situation is not conducive to survival- 4 single boat wrecks yielding 4 fatalities. Look at all the other incidents where drivers are ending up with broken bones or worse yet almost lost their entire leg. Again, putting a barrier between the driver the boat and the water increases the chances of survival by 80-90% but alas nothing is a fail safe.
Last, it's funny how every class and category of boats complained bitterly when capsules were foisted upon them (no one is forcing capsules on the flats and V's) yet, all of them - inboard hydro's, tunnels, and drags, are now going faster then they were before and their safety record according to insurance has skyrocketed thus allowing for lower premiums. At the end of the day beside driver choice, insurance and the availability to get it for a race without it being unaffordable for the racer is the next biggest concern.
Again, great points from all sides.
Ross :wink:

WaterBox

12-23-2004, 09:24 AM

I can't take all this bs anymore! Most of you assume or think you know what you are talking about.To assume things and not ask questions is just plain ignorance. Nobody has asked why the hole was cut in the top of the lid in that boat ,so you guys still dont know,Maybe if you put all your Mr. know it all ego's away for a moment we can learn something and save some lives! To my knowledge all the people posting on this thread have never driven a inboard circle boat with a capsule or reinforced cockpit. I built mine and helped build 2 others and spent time driving all three of them and the other two drivers also cut the tops out of there lids. Someone on here also said the boat didn't have proper flotation. Thats funny it never sank,(thats because it had flotation in it)what a surprise! As for not having my air mask on ,that was a big mistake by my part. My helmet that had the clips in it for the mask was taken out of our race trailer and was not there , I had a spare air on my leg and my mask on my lap and figured I could get to one of them , I was wrong. Let me leave you with just this; say you have 2 boats with reinforced cockpits ,crash at the sametime , and one on each turn ,"what boat does the rescue save first?''
Sneed; This happened at Blue Water right? The bottom line is what REVENGE said! RESCUE!!!! I was there, I seen what went on and it was very aggravating to see that the rescue people didn't have a clue how to get you out, or get that boat turned right side up!! So they drug the boat up-side down across the water to the beach where they finely got you out.. It seemed like it took forever, Do you know for sure how many min. you were up-side down?? Rescue should have had the boat right side up in less than 2 min. after they got to you.

rossdbos

12-23-2004, 10:08 AM

The incident took place at the Bluewater Resort, the rescue on hand was San Diego Water Rescue, after that incident I set out and found better trained and equipped rescue and SCSC has had it ever since. NJBA are the most qualified rescue I have ever had the pleasure to work with (and I have worked with alot- SDWR, River Rescue, Black Diamond, Formula 1/Champboat Rescue, etc.) they have a crane on both boats, well trained divers and first responders. The confidence from the racers has grown by leaps and bounds and many other groups are taking notice and sharing information with each other on rescue techniques, better safety and capsule training. So while we can all bemoan what happened to Johnny that was 4-5 years ago and the rescue we have had since are the best and I don't know of any driver out there that feels otherwise.
Ross

Jetboatguru

12-23-2004, 10:27 AM

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-23-2004, 02:20 PM

Sneed; This happened at Blue Water right? The bottom line is what REVENGE said! RESCUE!!!! I was there, I seen what went on and it was very aggravating to see that the rescue people didn't have a clue how to get you out, or get that boat turned right side up!! So they drug the boat up-side down across the water to the beach where they finely got you out.. It seemed like it took forever, Do you know for sure how many min. you were up-side down?? Rescue should have had the boat right side up in less than 2 min. after they got to you.
Mr. Waterbox,
After the boat went in it bobbed nose up until teagues ski boat towed it on to plain. This occured with the diver hanging on and tending to John. The boat was not up-side down when it was towed in.
JG

worlds fastest,revenge boats

12-23-2004, 03:00 PM

have a great holiday tony, talk at you later. john

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-23-2004, 03:21 PM

say you have 2 boats with reinforced cockpits ,crash at the sametime , and one on each turn ,"what boat does the rescue save first?''
Very good point and a question that could lead to more questions. Sneed, are you involved with Rank daddys capsule development?
Ross, Johns boat didn't sink, it bobbed nose out until it was dragged up on plain.
JG

rossdbos

12-23-2004, 03:31 PM

Jerry:
Technically it didn't completely submerge, yet, the only part of the boat out of the water was the tip- the rest of the boat was under when rescue finally attached the bow eye line and Teague gunned it to get it out from under water. If the driver is submerged, I consider it sunk, I personally don't care whether a 6" or 3 foot section of the nose is above the water, if the driver is not above the waterline then he's sunk.
BTW, we can "what if" this to death and still not have all the possible scenarios covered for a capsule to make people happy and that's o.k. too. Those that feel it's time are working to fix the current problems and are carefully planning to implement capsules into their boats, those that don't will continue to make all the excuses in the world of why it should never be done-some have some legitamacy a majority are just excuses.
Take care and Happy Holidays!
Ross

Kurtis500

12-23-2004, 04:57 PM

Let me leave you with just this; say you have 2 boats with reinforced cockpits ,crash at the sametime , and one on each turn ,"what boat does the rescue save first?''
You do like the drags and have 2 rescue boats equiped with trained diving/rescue personel and recovery equipment. Without it, you practice euthenasia to one of the drivers in your scenario. Without sweeping rules changes and mandatory this or that, those scenarios will likely happen at some point in time.
Sneed, if your the guy at Parker that was under water and had to be drug up by boat a few years ago, you should be thanking your lucky stars. I got a good look at you before you came out of the boat all the way till the ambo took off.

WaterBox

12-23-2004, 05:18 PM

Very good point and a question that could lead to more questions. Sneed, are you involved with Rank daddys capsule development?
Ross, Johns boat didn't sink, it bobbed nose out until it was dragged up on plain.
JG
Hi Jerry :D Wasn't that the boat that had a V K letter's on it or some other letter on it besides a K ???

Jetboatguru

12-23-2004, 05:21 PM

Merry Christmas to you and yours John!!

V-DRIVE VIDEO

12-23-2004, 06:58 PM

Hi Jerry :D Wasn't that the boat that had a V K letter's on it or some other letter on it besides a K ???
it said 707 on it. ;)

FlatRacer

12-24-2004, 10:30 AM

Merry Christmas to all you boat racers, ex-racers, builders, promoters, officials, rescue workers, photographers, and fans!
Hopefully, we'll all be around to debate this topic for years to come.
Eric

FlatRacer

12-24-2004, 10:42 AM

I have heard that If the boat is foamed right the deck shouldn't come off, and the foam will add strength to the boat..
Unfortunately, the foam doesn't have "memory". In other words, once it's compressed, it stays compressed. If you push on the deck of the boat the deck gives beneath the weight but it springs back. The foam also gives, but it does not spring back. Even if the foam stays firmly adhered to the underside of the deck it has torn apart from itself somewhere else inside. So, essentially, any additional strength the presence of the foam imparts to the laminate is gone after the first impact.
Eric

Moneypitt

01-12-2005, 09:56 PM

This was in the Ty Newton thread and I thought it should be brought to light in this thread since the capsule issue has sort of slowed down. ..........MP
Why guys win..
In the thirty five years I've made race props, guys who win are the easiest to deal with. Why??? They don't go to races to race, they go to races to win. As The Real King of K Boats said, they come early and leave late.
Guys who win, treat racing as a business. They give me data about their props...I understand I might make "JUNK" props sometimes, but TELL ME why you think they are junk....The guys that win, tell me how the prop works, they give me RPM's. They give me miles per hour...They don't own a 15 and a 16... The own many props...Winner don't cheat, they do their homework..My dad use to say, "We win races in the garage. We just prove it on the race course."
In 2005, to race SS in the FRONT Pack, you'd better had done your homework already....otherwise, you are working on the 2006 season..
With that thought in mind, I've purchased Rick Hoffman's Formula One Capsule mold..Any FLAT BOTTOM RACER is WELCOME to use the MOLD at NO CHARGE. APBA had a suggest lay up schedule that I have copies of...I love making props and always have....I don't like seeing frineds die in racing...
NASCAR makes changes to save lives.....Flat Bottom people are serious "FREE SPIRITS", but I wish they'd use capsules...I also wish the SS guys would go to roller cams...
Wild Child will have a Ron Jones capsule in their new boat....We crash 140 mile an hour Formula Ones Tunnel Boats all the time....we have not lost a driver since the Arcadian Star, Jimmy Hauenstein, in 1997....
Flat bottoms have lost 5, in three years at Parker...
I will deliver the capsule mold to your glass man...or carbon fiber man...free of charge...
www.boatracingfact.com
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Last edited by Ron Hill : Today at 09:33 PM.