In memory of...

[Havasu Hangin']

http://www.marineperformance.com/photogalleryT48/images/07_T48_Lift.jpg
http://www.marineperformance.com/photogalleryT48/images/06_T48_Lift_2.jpg
http://www.marineperformance.com/photogalleryT48/images/11_T48_Idle.jpg
200 MPH (http://www.marineperformance.com/videos/CallanC43-1.wmv)
Speedvision (http://www.marineperformance.com/videos/air.wmv)
LOTO Shootout (http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/985BOAT_RACE.wmv)
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/519/74Callan_2.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/519/74Callan.jpg

[ChumpChange]

Wow. Do you know what happened?

[BoatFloating]

Wow. Do you know what happened?
They stuffed it at the Worlds in Florida.
:squiggle:

[1stepcloser]

:frown: I'm so sorry for the loss. :frown:
A beautiful boat.

[1stepcloser]

Wow. Do you know what happened?
Watch the third video.

[ChumpChange]

They stuffed it at the Worlds in Florida.
:squiggle:
Stuffing it did all that? Wow.

[ChumpChange]

Watch the third video.
On the work computer, am only getting audio for some reason. Sounds cool.

[BoatFloating]

Watch the third video.
The 3rd video is at LOTO 2003 Shoot Out and the boat crash is not the Callan it was a HTM that wrecked.

[BoatFloating]

Stuffing it did all that? Wow.
Oh Ya, when your going fast and the water was rough yes. Don't try this at home.....

[1stepcloser]

My apologies. upon closer inspection of the video, I see that. It implies it's the same boat though, from a casual view.
Except the crash boat only has one drive, and isnt enclosed, and has a center pod, and graphics on the sides, and is a bit shorter, (OK, quite a bit) :mix:

[Reaper1]

All hail the Loto King. :cool:
God Speed

[wildbillg]

thats not a viedo of it stuffing?
stuffing isnt that when the front fo the boat goes under water (stuffing it in the water)?
That viedo looks like the boat just got loose and the driver lost control?
It's amazing what speed and air (over triming) can do..........OUCH :mix:

[BoatFloating]

thats not a viedo of it stuffing?
stuffing isnt that when the front fo the boat goes under water (stuffing it in the water)?
That viedo looks like the boat just got loose and the driver lost control?
It's amazing what speed and air (over triming) can do..........OUCH :mix:
Read post
8 that is a HTM that was part of the Callan run in 2003 at Lotto. The Callan boat stuffed it in 2004 and as far as I know the didn't catch the wreck on video only the aftermath....

[wildbillg]

. k .

[fkeys]

That's a damn crying shame!! :cry:

[RiverToysJas]

The 3rd video is at LOTO 2003 Shoot Out and the boat crash is not the Callan it was a HTM that wrecked.
Another HTM wrecked, that's strange! I know it's a touchy subject here, BUT IMO, There was Corvair, then Pinto and finally HTM. I just don't trust that hull. They sure seem to have a lot of accidents. Sure the drivers/owners are usually at fault, but I think some hulls are more forgiving than others. That one has no forgiveness IMO.
RTJas :D

[Jbb]

They took the turbines out ran the Torque V12's in it.,...then they came out and the Turbines went back in....That boat will quickly be replaced......

[jackpunx]

Another HTM wrecked, that's strange! I know it's a touchy subject here, BUT IMO, There was Corvair, then Pinto and finally HTM. I just don't trust that hull. They sure seem to have a lot of accidents. Sure the drivers/owners are usually at fault, but I think some hulls are more forgiving than others. That one has no forgiveness IMO.
RTJas :D
I think they are less forgiving but perform extreamly well when you can drive them..
I have a couple of buddies with them.. I would only go in one of them.. the other two I'll watch from a far..lol

[Mrs. Revndave]

That sucks! :mad:

[MOBrien]

I can't remember where exactly, but I read about that HTM recently and it was written that he was just at the 100mph mark when it went airborne. That's what's scary these days.....there are a lot of people out there now with 100+++mph rigs that have no business running those speeds. Of course that's not to stereotype all of those that own such beautiful boats, but it only takes a few that don't have a clue. Recreational boaters are going to start getting killed with frequency if regulations aren't put in place for the high speed boat buyer. When the time comes for me to step into that category, and I fully intend for it to happen, I would be more than happy to get some sort of cert/training that proves to myself..and others..that I deserve to be in that boat running those speeds.
my $.02
-MOB

[framer1]

Great, my wife saw the viedo now she doesn't want to go in the boat again :cry: Did anybody get hurt in that accident?

[Havasu Hangin']

Great, my wife saw the viedo now she doesn't want to go in the boat again :cry: Did anybody get hurt in that accident?
I heard the guy walked (floated) away. I heard he was back the next day...a little bruised, but back. I'd say he's a little more than lucky considering how the boat flipped right over him (very close).
Wear your vests, people.

[boatslayer]

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Bling Bling]

A bit of slack is do for the callan boat. I might be wrong but If my memory is correct, that boat was built in the early 90s, and I belive it's been raced a few million times here as well as back in Europe. Holding up till now is quite an accomplishment. Just think of not only the speed that boat runs, but the power its got between it's stringers. All hail to the king!!!!!
Good thread HH

[kidstuf]

A bit of slack is do for the callan boat. I might be wrong but If my memory is correct, that boat was built in the early 90s, and I belive it's been raced a few million times here as well as back in Europe. Holding up till now is quite an accomplishment. Just think of not only the speed that boat runs, but the power its got between it's stringers. All hail to the king!!!!!
Good thread HH
you're right... i believe it was built in '95... it's been through a lot and held up very well... they do already have a new boat built that's supposed to be insane... spent 2mil on it.
gary smith said that while watching the race (the world's) from helicopter it appeared as though they stuffed the boat in the straight away in like 3ft of water and possibly hit the bottom which caused it to come apart, but also kept it from sinking.

[Three Days Only]

god how I love those Tencara's. One bitchen ass boat!!

[HighRoller]

None of the HTM accidents were due to the boat's design or flaws. The LOTO was obviously driver error, as the video shows. The boat didn't fly, it bounced off of a roller and crashed. The accident that killed Steve was a mechanical failure with the steering at relatively low speeds. We could say that DCB's are death traps as well because one rolled over at Havasu, but that would be a stretch.

[BADBLOWN572]

None of the HTM accidents were due to the boat's design or flaws.
I guess that is why we keep hearing so many of them ending up upside down in the water. Must be that the drivers are about as competant as an asian women in a car. Funny that you don't hear of many other manufacturers boats flipping. I can recall 4 major HTM turnovers off of the top of my head. Other manufacturers boats can have problems, it is the nature of high performance boating, but all of those can be said to be driver error or mechanical. Not defective product. HTM is a defective product.
The LOTO was obviously driver error, as the video shows. The boat didn't fly, it bounced off of a roller and crashed.
You are right, it was driver error. The guy was an idiot for not backing off of the throttle when he hit that 2" roller. YEAH RIGHT! The water looked like you could run a K-Boat in it which would easily mean a cat should be able to handle the water without a problem. Just because the driver could not keep control of a boat that handles like shit, doesn't necessarily mean that it was 100% driver error. If the boat didn't handle like shit, it probably wouldn't have gone over.
The accident that killed Steve was a mechanical failure with the steering at relatively low speeds.
Really? That is interesting. You must know more than the law officials that investigated the crash. Considering that the boat ran 146 the day before and was on the rev limiters, that demonstraits that it is a high speed boat. I can tell you from watching Steve drive numerous times, that guy is either idle or wide open! I honestly remember one time watching him drive and I turned to my friend and said "That guy is going to kill someone." The officials said that it appeared to be mechanical failure at a high rate of speed. The boat was propped that day to go over 150. Low speed my ass!!! As Jordy said, in comparison to an F-16, it might be slow, but in the world of performance boating it was easily within the top 2% of boats out on the water.
I have never been shy about my opinion that the HTM is a death trap and I have said loud and clear that I will NEVER ride in one! Personally I think that helmets and lifelines should come as standard equipment in those boats. Odds are that at one point in time, they are going to be needed.

[THOR]

The investigating officers, like in many cases, were way off like in many accidents. The HTM crash was a mechanical failure. I have seen the file material and worked on the case. BTW, the facts that are seen in the files are documented, tested with mathematical formulas and scientific equations. Many things that are being said here are pure speculation and conjecture.

[Boatlesss]

The attorneys might collect from teleflex as if it was a mechanical failure with the tilt wheel but that is not what caused the accident.
It was a windy day, they hit a roller, kited and upon re-entry hooked a sponson and over they went.
Speed was estimated between 90 to 120 but those are guestimates from the witnesses and the sheriff. I bet Steve would argue he was going faster!
There is no payoff in the truth and there are witness’s statements to the sheriff that support the truth.
The accident was driver error.
Every hypothesis needs a test to prove it works. If they had not been going excessively fast would the boat have performed the same? Run every speed from an idle (design flaw) to speeds that are unsafe. In between those two the answer lye’s.

[Tom Slick]

The HTM that crashed in the video was at the 2003 LOTO Shootout. It is obvious not only from the video, but also the audio that the accident was caused by 2 reasons.
1) Rouge rolling waves that move up the course from passing motor yachts down course. The rollers upset the boat at over 100mph and you can clearly see that in the video. The same rouge waves almost caused the Callan boat to wreck this year when the boat got out of shape and consiquently lost its rudder at over 200mph.
2) Driver error and poor judgement. From the audio you can hear that the driver never backed off the throttle. He had the finishline in sight and was going for the glory.
INFOMANIAC from the boards can attest to the poor water conditions and the rouge waves, as he sat on the starting line and whitnessed the whole thing before his run. He used good judgement and decided to save himself and his boat for another day and didn't burry the throttle and try and set the fastes speed in his class, which I believe was the same class that the HTM was in.
In my opinion HTM is not a bad boat, I personaly loved mine and had a great time driving it. Are they user friendly for the inexperienced performance boater? NO!!! The HTM is not the easiest boat to drive. They require quite a bit of time behind the wheel to learn the handling characteristics of the boat. I have driven other cats in that size range and found that compared to driving the HTM, they were like driving the Autopia cars at Disneyland. Most of the cats in this class have deep center sponsons that help the boats handling. In a sense like training wheels. The HTM's shallow center pod is part of the reason HTM's are typically faster with the same HP as some of these other cats, however with the added speed you get by using less of a center pod you loose a bit of the security that the deeper pods give you.
All in all I think the HTM is great if you know what you're doing. I also think that any boat, HTM included need to be respected and the owner should be responsible for learning how to drive the thing properly. It scares me to think that the same idiots that cause traffic jams on the freeway can walk into a boat dealer and pick himself up a 100mph boat just by having good credit. Kinda funny how you don't need a license to drive 100mph on water, but you need one to drive a car.

[Tom Slick]

The attorneys might collect from teleflex as if it was a mechanical failure with the tilt wheel but that is not what caused the accident.
It was a windy day, they hit a roller, kited and upon re-entry hooked a sponson and over they went.
Speed was estimated between 90 to 120 but those are guestimates from the witnesses and the sheriff. I bet Steve would argue he was going faster!
There is no payoff in the truth and there are witness’s statements to the sheriff that support the truth.
The accident was driver error.
Every hypothesis needs a test to prove it works. If they had not been going excessively fast would the boat have performed the same? Run every speed from an idle (design flaw) to speeds that are unsafe. In between those two the answer lye’s.
Than I guess that you can argue that the Callan boat was wrecked because of driver error, as well as all of the other high performance boating accidents that happen every year. Steve was testing a new boat, he crashed and he died. Jack Carmody was racing his Skater in Corpus Christy, TX and he crashed and died. 2 guys in a turbine powered Skater were testing back in Maryland last winter and they crashed and died. What caused all of these accidents, driver error, mechanical malfunction, water conditions??? Whatever it was, good people are now dead and it is sad. They all knew what they were going to be up against when they each left the dock on those particular days. Unfortunately they didn't come back.

[Havasu Hangin']

Than I guess that you can argue that the Callan boat was wrecked because of driver error, as well as all of the other high performance boating accidents that happen every year. Steve was testing a new boat, he crashed and he died. Jack Carmody was racing his Skater in Corpus Christy, TX and he crashed and died. 2 guys in a turbine powered Skater were testing back in Maryland last winter and they crashed and died. What caused all of these accidents, driver error, mechanical malfunction, water conditions??? Whatever it was, good people are now dead and it is sad. They all knew what they were going to be up against when they each left the dock on those particular days. Unfortunately they didn't come back.
Well said.
Let's all wear our vests next summer.

[Boatlesss]

Yep, I claim driver error in all of those accidents.
Jack Carmody hit a wave at a high rate of speed, launched and came down on the starboard sponson, hooked and rolled over. The lack of a canopy lid allowed the water to come in and impact his body. This is the exact reason for the mandatory two man canopy in offshore racing today!
HTM was already covered
Skater blew over at over 180 mph after hitting a rouge wave.
A 36’ Cigarette rolled over and there was a fatality. Driver error? Hull design? Possibly as the 36’ Gladiator has a bad habit of swapping ends with the propellers spinning inward but not at slower speeds.
If you think that the crash with HTM or the Skater or even the Spectre was due to mechanical failure then prove it!
Fact is if they had been going significantly slower they would all be alive for that particular incident.
Pull your hypothesis out and plug in some scenarios. If the steering failed would the boat have crashed while idling? Yes, although it most likely would not have hurt someone it would eventually crash into land or docks.
As for hitting a wave at idling would it have caused the boats to become airborne sufficiently enough to cause the boat to flip? No, but add enough speed to it and they can jump the wave with sufficient velocity to become airborne. The jump doesn’t hurt it’s the landing.
Callen, if they had been going slower would that hole they hit in front of Truman Annex have broken off the Starboard Sponson? No, but add sufficient velocity to the impact and it can rip off the front of the boat.
If any and all of them had been going slower then they would not have had the accident in the first place. It was their discretion to reach the speeds they did and thus the accident happened.
Callen was racing and while things happen they do not happen as bad at slower speeds.
There was a V bottom that spun out and rolled in KW along with a Scism cat rolled in a turn, and the old Don Q Skater rolled in the turn. Are you saying that every one of these happened because it was the fault of something mechanical or b/c the driver was going to fast for the turn?
In Key West Paul Whitter spun out and broke his Bravo and the boat begun to sink, is this a mechanical failure? Yes in the sense that it broke from the spin out but no from the point of view that it caused the spin out.
If it’s always someone else’s fault then you have a lot of growing up to do.
This is why people preach common sense and SAFTEY!
Someone else stated that the same person that cannot drive a car worth a dam can purchase a boat that goes X amount of speed and cause an accident.
This is the last frontier and the bad decision making by others does affect us all. Just look at the insurance rates from the few accidents in 2004’!

[Tom Slick]

Boatless,
First off, I hope you didn't think that I was attacking what you said in your earlier post. I happen to agree with everything that you said. I guess what I was trying to say, and this sounds kind of bad considering the topic is that SHIT HAPPENS. Whether testing a new boat, racing, or just enjoying a day on the water SHIT HAPPENS. High performance boat crashes happen for lots of reasons, driver error being one of them, but not all of them. I guess if you call running a Skater at 180mph and hitting a rouge wave and crashing driver error than maybe your right, but both of those men knew the risk involved when they left the dock that day. Was it the driver and throttlemans fault, or the rouge wave? I guess when you're trimmed out and running 180 it is your fault for running that fast, but ultimately the wave may have caused the crash. Fact is high speeds in any boat is risky and whether the driver screwed up, the boat broke or and act of god caused the accident SHIT HAPPENS and we all know it when we board the boat for a high speed run.
Anyway, since this conversation seemed to revolve around the HTM crash at LOTO, I feel that it was not the boats fault or a mechanical problem, it was water conditions and driver error.
As for the Callan problem in the Keys, I had heard that the right sponson was delaminating and may have taken on water, thus causing the boat to land on the right sponson and tearing it up. This is just what I heard.

[BADBLOWN572]

I will give you that each and every crash has some sort of human error involved. Either they pushed the boats doing something that they should not be doing or shit happens and things break. Someone 90% of the time must have been doing something that they shouldn't have been doing, but some things go above and beyond human error. In an offshore race, people are pushing things to the very limits of safety and they know what is going on. Why do you think that the boats have full canopies and most of the drivers are on oxygen. They know that they are pushing the boats above and beyone what is normal and safe.
There are things that are considered design flaws. As someone pointed out earlier, the Corvair. When it gets hit, it explodes. I am a firm believer that the HTM has a design flaw in it. It might be acceptable for racing, but not as a pleasure boat. How is it that a boat powered by a 496 traveling at a reported 40 miles per hour in light chop flips over with a baby under the bow? Did the driver really do something so drastic that it caused the boat to flip? Allso, how often is it that someone in a 25' cat runs over 100mph in heavy chop. Not very smart, but it happens all the time. You do not hear of them blowing over. Even LEO's have recommended that the HTM be evaluated for usage as a recreational boat.
The speeds that the HTM's are coming apart at are not out of the ordinary. They are at the speeds that get hit every day on our local lakes and water ways. If it was on a race course pushing the limits of the driver's ability as well as the limits of the boat, I could very easily understand and would say that it is a risk that the driver took. The drivers of race boats know that they are risking their lives. Do you think that the average boater out there think that they are risking their lives while cruising around on the water?
Even HTM owners say that it takes a special driving ability to drive these things above and beyond the normal driver. As we all know, many people who do buy high performance boats are idiots. They don't have special skills or abilities to keep them safe in them. Unfortunately this inadequacy has forced all of us to pay dearly to participate in the sport we love.
All bashing aside, it is my opinion that the boat has special handling characteristics that borderline on being extremely dangerous in normal conditions. They are built to be light and run fast. FINE! Use them for their desired purpose. Use them on the race course and in a straight line. As a recreational boat, they are not adequate and have / will continue to cost people their lives. I am tired of having the cats characterized as unsafe and therefore all of us with these boats paying insane amounts of money to cover our ass with insurance. It is not worth it for the rest of us to pay for the mistakes of a few. Yes I know that the HTM was not the only incidents that caused insurance to go up, but Steve's crash at Castaic was the one that brought the most publicity and started the rate hike.

[THOR]

Boatless,
you sure do have an awful lot of opinions for never seeing the hards facts of the HTM crash involving Steve Coulombe (sp?), and for never running a calculation or a time/distance analysis. You must be a seasoned mechanical engineer with tons of accident reconstruction experience. :hammerhea
BB572, do you really think that insurance companies dont hire engineering firms to perform tests that evaluate differences in hull types. Saying that Steve's crash is the single contributing factor to insurance hikes is pure conjecture again. There are countless governmental reports and hours of research are performed to come to these conclusions. They cant just arbitrarily hike prices.

[Jordy]

As someone pointed out earlier, the Corvair. When it gets hit, it explodes.
Actually, much like the HTM, the Corvair had a nasty habit of ending up on it's lid. That was the basis of the book "Unsafe At Any Speed" by the future many time presidental candidate and consumer advocate Ralph Nader. The Pinto liked to blow into a ball of flames when hit from behind. History lesson over. ;)
They cant just arbitrarily hike prices.
Someone should tell them that. Seems there are a couple threads a month about people's insurance going through the roof or being cancelled with no claims, tickets, or accidents. I guess it's up to the insurance companies to police themselves. :rolleyes:

[diggler]

I have a 2000 19' Ultra Shadow. Currently, I am having a 565c.i. 800+hp engine built for it. It is a jet-drive, and it does have a deep center sponson. The only reason I am building the engine with this much horsepower is because no matter what, I needed a new block and pistons. I could have gone over 600c.i. on this DART block, but it would be too much.
However, with that said... Safety is my number one priority. I have a healthy fear and respect for the boat as it is. I'm pretty certain with the new engine that I could exceed 100mph. Yet, when the side walls only come up to your hips and no higher, you start thinking about the bad things that could happen.
I am scared to go excessive speeds in this boat, not because the boat is unsafe, or I am an inexperienced driver, but because shit does happen. I just don't want it to happen to me or anyone else when I'm behind the wheel.
This whole thread really strikes home for me when thinking about safety. I will always think twice about going too fast, or drinking too much, or a combination of the two. It's like having a corvette... the power is there when you want it. I'm happy to cruise at 45mph all day long. (with a few spurts of pure power and acceleration! :D )
Thanks for writing all the thoughts into this thread. At the very least, it made me think again about how I want to live this summer on the water safely.

[Charley]

Boatless,
you sure do have an awful lot of opinions for never seeing the hards facts of the HTM crash involving Steve Coulombe .
Just a hunch ;) but I like Thor's input.... #1, he's a smart guy #2 something tells me he's got much more info than any of us do...... so hush the fock up texas boy!
1) Rouge rolling waves that move up the course from passing motor yachts down course.
INFOMANIAC from the boards can attest to the poor water conditions and the rouge waves,
why do you keep mentioning these red colored waves?? :hammerhea
I have to assume you mean ROGUE waves slicker ;)

[Tom Slick]

Just a hunch ;) but I like Thor's input.... #1, he's a smart guy #2 something tells me he's got much more info than any of us do...... so hush the fock up texas boy!
why do you keep mentioning these red colored waves?? :hammerhea
I have to assume you mean ROGUE waves slicker ;)
What, you never saw a red wave before? ;) Heck even if they had spell check on here it wouldn't have caught that one. :D

[BADBLOWN572]

BB572, do you really think that insurance companies dont hire engineering firms to perform tests that evaluate differences in hull types. Saying that Steve's crash is the single contributing factor to insurance hikes is pure conjecture again. There are countless governmental reports and hours of research are performed to come to these conclusions. They cant just arbitrarily hike prices.
Refer to my last post in which I said:
Yes I know that the HTM was not the only incidents that caused insurance to go up, but Steve's crash at Castaic was the one that brought the most publicity and started the rate hike.
I realize that a number of factors contributed to the rate increase (as stated above), but the rate increase didn't happen until Steve's crash. In my opinion, which is unsubstantiated, once Steve crashed, the insurance companies got a real wakeup call on what types of speed and performance can be achieved in cats. Once their eyes are open, they went searching to find something. It is not difficult to find if you look hard enough. Before Steve's crash, insuring cats was not too bad. Not as cheap as a V, but can still be done. After the crash, many insurance companies started to cancel all types of air entrapment hulls causing a problem for boaters to find insurance.

[Havasu Hangin']

As Tom said...
...SHIT HAPPENS and we all know it when we board the boat for a high speed run....
Wear you vests.

[andy01]

As Tom said...
Wear your vests.
Good advise, we should all wear our vest more often.
BTW HH do you have two tapped together in the middle?
Andy

[Havasu Hangin']

BTW HH do you have two tapped together in the middle?
Easy there, turbo.
I heard you are so skinny that you need to run around in the shower to get wet.
:D

[Boatlesss]

I never said I have not seen the facts in person, read the autopsy report, view the cd of the photos of the boat, both in the water, being pulled onto the roll back (along with some other photos that are not worth mentioning) and viewed the boat at its storage facility.
In fact I can calculate the time/distance/speed and these facts are written in the report that the local police submitted to the sheriff along with the weather conditions and the witness statements of the accident.
I never said I never sat in on the hearings and such; saw the video that HTM made for to show the recall procedure on the Teleflex helm. Etc. etc. etc.
Need I go on?
The insurance rates have sky rocketed after the accident in MD not at Lake Castatic.

[andy01]

Easy there, turbo.
I heard you are so skinny that you need to run around in the shower to get wet.
:D
Do you think I could borrow one of your bath robes? I need a new car cover.....
:D
Andy

[boatslayer]

i have to agree with chris(tomslick) shit happens ,, every time we go out on our boats we are taking a risk , u never no what may happen ,,,,
if HTM is such a bad boat then why do people buy them?
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Charley]

I agree we should all wear our vests more often in our high speed runs, but this is proof that damage can still occur when a Ride in a Tunnel (3do's I'm told) and too much alcohol are mixed together. Even a Lifeline isnt always the answer !
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Granted it was a chocolate starfish tunnel ride, but the damage was done just the same!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/38Rockycuddle_copy.jpg

[Kilrtoy]

and to think I missed all this.....
damn what cats are safe

[Havasu Hangin']

Do you think I could borrow one of your bath robes? I need a new car cover.....
:D
Andy
That makes sense. A guy your size can probably drive a Matchbox.
:notam:

[BADBLOWN572]

if HTM is such a bad boat then why do people buy them?
:mad: :mad: :mad:
Ignorance/stupidity

[Jrocket]

Granted it was a chocolate starfish tunnel ride, but the damage was done just the same!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/38Rockycuddle_copy.jpg
WTF!!!

[WetWillie]

Can you explain to these guys about sleeping with the Come Sheet.. Thats the first thing you remove from the bed when you go into a motel. That picture should be the poster child for that law. Always rmove the Come sheet cause they never wash it!! Plus freaky shit goes on like you can see in that picture.. :messedup:
WTF!!!

[THOR]

.
In fact I can calculate the time/distance/speed and these facts are written in the report that the local police submitted to the sheriff along with the weather conditions and the witness statements of the accident.
Police officers are not engineers. Their calcs are so far off it is laughable.

[THOR]

BB572, my bad. I should have read your post a tad closer. I am not at all agreeing with the insurance companies regarding the rate hikes. In my opinion, the folks here should have lower insurance rates. I have seen most of you drive these high HP machines and can say that you are very good drivers and know the waters well. But, I have never seen the HH tugboat in action; only heard the rumors. ;)

[andy01]

That makes sense. A guy your size can probably drive a Matchbox.
:notam:
As a matter of fact I have been doing a little a little a SUV shopping.....
http://www.hotwheels.com/showcase/product.aspx?product_number=H0396&category_id=7554
Shouldn't you be walking your city and changing burned out street lights?
:squiggle:
Pick on somebody your size you big river bully!
Andy

[andy01]

But, I have never seen the HH tugboat in action; only heard the rumors. ;)
It's like a train wreck, you hate to look but you can't help but watch ......
Andy

[Havasu Hangin']

But, I have never seen the HH tugboat in action; only heard the rumors. ;)
The rumors all all true (as long as they have something to do with my very large "unit"). :messedup:
Oh...you're talking about driving... :idea:
Pick on somebody your size you big river bully!
Andy
You guys are all bigger than me...so there isn't anyone "my size".

[Dave C]

Actually no they don't always do them and yes they can! damn fockers. :boxingguy
BB572, do you really think that insurance companies dont hire engineering firms to perform tests that evaluate differences in hull types. Saying that Steve's crash is the single contributing factor to insurance hikes is pure conjecture again. There are countless governmental reports and hours of research are performed to come to these conclusions. They cant just arbitrarily hike prices.

[boatslayer]

Ignorance/stupidity
ya true true ,

[Boatlesss]

Police officers are not engineers. Their calcs are so far off it is laughable.
True, but! This does not carry any weight in the facts. Although the judge will believe the cops in their time/distance calculations over any of us.
The boat was going far to fast for the conditions. I've seen the damage, I've read the reports. Not to mention the BAC.
The attorneys only hire who they want to hear the right thing from. You don't actually think they are paying for something they can't use do you?
An expert witness is nothing more than a cheap ***** with a pedigree. Once someone is paid, they bias and perspective is skewed. Lies, damn lies and then there are statistics!
None of this is saying or implying anything about an HTM, rather the operator of such boats. Same for all the accidents that I have seen. Prudent caution and slower speeds for those particular situations would have saved their lives. There are times when you can go fast; unfortunately, finding out when the times are not good can cost you.

[THOR]

True, but! This does not carry any weight in the facts. Although the judge will believe the cops in their time/distance calculations over any of us.
The boat was going far to fast for the conditions. I've seen the damage, I've read the reports. Not to mention the BAC.
The attorneys only hire who they want to hear the right thing from. You don't actually think they are paying for something they can't use do you?
An expert witness is nothing more than a cheap ***** with a pedigree. Once someone is paid, they bias and perspective is skewed. Lies, damn lies and then there are statistics!
None of this is saying or implying anything about an HTM, rather the operator of such boats. Same for all the accidents that I have seen. Prudent caution and slower speeds for those particular situations would have saved their lives. There are times when you can go fast; unfortunately, finding out when the times are not good can cost you.
Well, since I am in the biz and am a cheap ***** I guess I am wrong then. And, I guess all the times I have seen cops get thrown out of court regarding testimony is a lie too right? You are so far off on your take of how expert testimony works it isnt even worth arguing. I turn down lawyers all time when I cant help. Why? Because I have morals. There is the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do. Unfortunately the expert witnesses you are referring are 'hired guns' and say whatever their clients want them to. In the end, they end up getting dismissed from court because they have contradictory opinions and all of them end up on record and available to the public. You have a lot to learn.

[boatnam2]

shit next im going to find out the expert witnesses lied and oj really was guilty!

[THOR]

shit next im going to find out the expert witnesses lied and oj really was guilty!
Those are both lies. :cool:

[andy01]

The rumors all all true (as long as they have something to do with my very large "unit"). :messedup:
Oh...you're talking about driving... :idea:
You guys are all bigger than me...so there isn't anyone "my size".
I have a picture to prove you are the biggest guy on the board and that is why you are the river/board bully! Just give me a minute to find it......................
Hee hee hee I think I will start another thread with the picture....
I know I am asking for it but what the hell people know how big you really are...........
Andy

[Havasu Hangin']

I have a picture to prove you are the biggest guy on the board and that is why you are the river/board bully! Just give me a minute to find it......................
And I have pictures of you... :jawdrop:

[boatnam2]

what are you guys waiting on lets see them!must be making a backdoor pm deal.

[Boatlesss]

Your hanging onto the slow speed death catrastophy makes you look a lot more ignorant that anyone.
You might think you are an expert, but belive me you are so off base about what actually happened it says more than I can.
Having a law firm extort the plantiff is not proof of guilt, rather its cheaper to settle than fight.
Morals don't count in the court and a cops version of one's speeding means more to the judge than even your view.
Look at all the speeding tickets and the judges upholding them. The judge will belive the cop over anyone. While outside the scope, it was my point.
You seem to pound your chest about your knowlege but you offer no proof to substain your argument.

[Jordy]

You seem to pound your chest about your knowlege but you offer no proof to substain your argument.
Wow, so you're saying that Thor, who does this for a living, is uncredible, while at the same time, you, who randomly appears, with 53 posts, offering less information than Thor, who does this stuff for a living, should be believed because he's banging on his chest?
Dude, ya gotta put the crack pipe down every now and then. Seems that between you and your know everything, yet offer nothing, and HighRoller, with his dumbass slow crash theories should get together and compare notes. :hammerhea

[Boatlesss]

All he has to do is put up the facts.
Nothing more nothing less.
Kind of the put up or shut up theory.

[THOR]

All he has to do is put up the facts.
Nothing more nothing less.
Kind of the put up or shut up theory.
First, thanks Jordy. :D
Second, Boatless, if you knew anything you would know that I cannot (by attorney client privilege) reveal anything about the case. In court you need to have a scientific basis for any and all opinions in order for those opinions to be recognized in court. If such opinions are based on things like the laws of physics and engineering and can be proven and derived then that are credible. Lying about such things only makes careers of experts very short lived and gets them tossed out of court on their a$$.
You need to learn a little about topics before you argue about them.

[THOR]

Your hanging onto the slow speed death catrastophy makes you look a lot more ignorant that anyone.
You might think you are an expert, but belive me you are so off base about what actually happened it says more than I can.
Having a law firm extort the plantiff is not proof of guilt, rather its cheaper to settle than fight.
Morals don't count in the court and a cops version of one's speeding means more to the judge than even your view.
Look at all the speeding tickets and the judges upholding them. The judge will belive the cop over anyone. While outside the scope, it was my point.
You seem to pound your chest about your knowlege but you offer no proof to substain your argument.
Listen dude, get a clue before you start in on this stuff. You make it seem like all law firms are ambulance chasers. There are many different facets of law. Pick up a book or read the news sometime. You might just learn something. :idea:

[Jordy]

No problem Thor. ;)
Having a law firm extort the plantiff is not proof of guilt, rather its cheaper to settle than fight.
OK, I'm a little confused on this one, after taking in all the facts you have posted.
How exactly would a law firm extort a plaintiff to prove guilt and get them to settle? (unless you're talking about some kind of counter-suit)
First off, from what I have come to understand (mostly from People's Court and Judge Judy ;) ), a plaintiff would be the person filing the lawsuit in a civil complaint. In a civil complaint, there is no guilt, that's saved for the criminal cases. In the civil case, it's about "responsibility."
Based upon that, how can the plaintiff be held responsible yet forced to settle? Seems to me that if the plaintiff is responsible, the respondant's (similar to a defendant in a criminal case, but the civil counterpart) counsel would make a motion for a directed verdict or summary judgment if the plaintiff's responsibility was clearly evident in the course of the trial, or if it came out in the verdict, then the Plaintiff wouldn't receive anything as the burden of proof wasn't met in their case, therefore no extortion would be necessary and settling wouldn't really be an option.
Seems to me that you need to study up a little bit. ;)

[Jrocket]

Sure is alot of people that know everything in here.

[Jordy]

Sure is alot of people that know everything in here.
You must be talking about HighRoller and Boatlessssss. They've got it all figured out. ;) :D

[BADBLOWN572]

Seems that they know just about enough to get themselves into trouble. :yuk:

[andy01]

what are you guys waiting on lets see them!must be making a backdoor pm deal.
And I have pictures of you.......... :jawdrop:
Andy

[THOR]

Seems that they know just about enough to get themselves into trouble. :yuk:
I get in trouble all the time and I dont know $hit according to Boatless. :yuk:

[DogHouse]

Sure is alot of people that know everything in here.
People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who actually do.
:D

[Havasu Hangin']

People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who actually do.
:D
That's the first true statement posted in this thread.
:D

[Jordy]

That's the first true statement posted in this thread.
:D
There might be a couple more. You just have to look hard for them. :D

[Charley]

There might be a couple more. You just have to look hard for them. :D
Heres one..... most asians have straight black hair :cry:

[Rocket-J]

I am coming in a little late on this issue.
I own an HTM and drive it hard on various types of water from Havasu to Lake Shasta and the Sacramento River Delta in narrow, winding slews that are more like salalom courses. I have owned it one year and have 100 hrs on it. It took 50hrs to feel comfortable pushing MY limits. I still don't know the boats limits, but I will learn them slowly.
The HTM is priced at an entry level but needs driver experience. Most smaller boats drive like a car. Just turn the wheel. Put the average car driver in a Sprint Car and watch him crash. It won't be the cars fault.
Airplanes are a good example of needing to learn the characteristics and limits (envelope) of each specific type. Corvairs were not a bad car. They had a different weight and balance than the average car and the average driver did not try to learn new diving skills.
I bought my HTM after all of the above mentioned wrecks. I research everything I could before my purchase. I bought the HTM because it fit my budget and my garage and it was bigger inside than larger cats. It is faster than most cats from zero to 90+ and I average 9gph over the entire weekend.
Turn on your brain before you turn on the key. Al

[Jordy]

Corvairs were not a bad car. They had a different weight and balance than the average car
Yeah, and the Pintos weren't bad either, they just had a different location for the gas tank. ;)