WHY IS MY BOAT SO SLOW!!!! [Archive]

1000mhz

08-23-2001, 10:40 PM

Hey fellows, Im hoping somebody can help me out here. I just bought my Taylor 18' with built 454/berk E pump/Jetovator. When I first got the boat, the bowl was pulled off the pump. There was no impeller and there was a lot of missing hardware. Not to familiar with pumps, I took it all off and gave it to ADM boatworks (banner above). There shop is close to me. Before I got on the internet I just told him to make things right for me (trust). He told me he would rebuild it and sale me a used A impeller in good shape. He said a new impeller runs about $380.00, But he would sale me his for 280.00. Im running off the subject here but im a little pissed because after net shopping I found that I can get "NEW" the pitch of my choice for the same amount as his used A. He also sold me the reverse and jetovator cable linkage for $68.00, after shopping around I found those pieces for 8.00 each. what an a$$ hole. Anyway, I take my boat out after replacing a couple freeze plugs and installing the pump and I must say, I am very unhappy with the results. I was told by the owner that this boat was a 70mph boat. I know alot of people pump up there boat on a sale but im not getting anywhere near that at all. The built 454 is pushin a very clean and impressive 5,000 RPM but the boat is moving at a very unimpressive 40 mph. Now this boat looks and feels like it wants to go a lot faster than that. I dont feel cavitation and even checked to make sure I didnt suck anything up. It just isnt moving water. To make sure I was sucking a plentiful amount of water I cranked the diverter up for a sweet rooooooster witch indeed made a huge rainbow. But when i stuff the bow back in the water, the boat just does not want to move like it should. Any suggestions on things to try would be great. I think I will be doing any and all work to my boat myself from now on. Did I get jipped on my pump rebuild? I need some help here, leaving wednesday for Havasu!

1000mhz

08-23-2001, 11:04 PM

Thanks in advance for any comments I really can use the help. dont want them small blocks beating me at havy this weekend!

riverlover

08-24-2001, 12:00 AM

Did you check to make sure the anchor is in the boat? Just kidding, I will defer to OldRigger. He knows everything and even some stuff about boats. If I had to guess I would say pump problem and you are probably saying, "no sh!t Sherlock"
Sorry I can't help much?
RL

1000mhz

08-24-2001, 12:16 AM

Thanks riverlover,
I do have to admit. I was looking around for thee old anchor, or my fat ass wife being dragged behind the boat. Hoping for some reason but found nothing, the bitch was still right next to me, yelling for slower speeds. SLOWER SPEEDS! Wait until the boat is running like it should. Slower speeds will then be the boats top speed now!
COW!!!!!
Yes, I take my anger out on my wife......
But its fun that way.

1000mhz

08-24-2001, 02:03 AM

Sorry honey, I love you
(she made me say that)

E_S_K_I_M_O2

08-24-2001, 04:26 AM

DID YOU CHECK TO SEE WHAT CUT IMPELLER YOU HAVE.

flat broke

08-24-2001, 06:43 AM

To clarify one thing, you will run faster with your diverter up, not down. Down forces the hull into the water, wetting more surface area and slowing you down. Too far up, obviously looks great, but doesn't usually get you your best numbers. Try running for numbers with the diverter 1 click or so above neutral, then go up from there until you see a speed loss.
Now on to your performance. I feel for ya as 5000RPM does not equate to 40 mph with an A cut. Check to make sure your hand hole cover is tight so you are not sucking air. Also let us know what kind of grate you are running on your intake. It could be that there is some sort of oddball grate in there blocking some of your H2O flow. Was the 40mph measured by GPS? The reason I ask is that some boat speedos can be pretty inaccurate, though I have never heard of 20 mph off. I can tell you that with a similar hull (19' eliminator bubble deck) we were easily hitting 62 (GPS) with a tired 460 and a pump that was definitely sloppy. The only other thing I can think of which is pretty hard to check is the impeller clearance. If you don't mind pulling your transom ring and bowl, you can easily(or should be able to) check the impeller clearance against the wear ring. The other post might also be correct. There is a possiblity that you do not have an A cut impeller. As an example, my Dad and Brother's Caribbean has a Hardin 330hp 454 that will only pull 4200 with an A cut. 5000k on a similar engine would have to mean either a VERY sloppy pump or a smaller pitch impeller. I have not had any dealings with ADM, so I can't say anything about their service. But (and please don't say anything Chet) if you get exasperated and can't figure out what the hell is wrong, Give Jack at MPD a call. He is in Costa Mesa so you're not too far away. He's a sharp guy, comes highly recommended, and is extremely professional. Good luck to you with your setup and congrats on getting a Jet. Post some pics when you get a chance.
Chris
[This message has been edited by flat broke (edited August 24, 2001).]

DOHARA

08-24-2001, 07:07 AM

I HEAR YOUR THOUGHT ON ADM. I LIVE IN HUNTINGTON AND I'VE CALLED JUST TO ASK A QUESTION ABOUT JET STUFF AND MOTOTR STUFF AND THEY ARE MAJOR JERKS ON PHONE. I WAS GOING TO GO DOWN TO CHECK THEM OUT BUT AFTER PHONE CONVERSATIONS WITH ATTITUDE I SAID F-U. IUSUALLY DEAL WITH HARMAN MARINE IN ANAHIEM AND HAVE HAD THE BEST HELP AND ADVISE FROM THEM. YES THEY DID RIP U OFF ON USED PROP. YOU CAN GET NEW OF YOUR CHOICE FOR AROUND 240.00 BUCKS. DID YOU REPLACE WEAR RING THAT GOES IN PUMP AROUND IMPELLER? IF YOU HAVE TO MUCH CLEARANCE YOU WILL LOOSE ALOT OF THRUST FROM YOUR PUMP. GOOD LUCK.....

old rigger

08-24-2001, 07:25 AM

Hey riverlover,
I've already said what I know about boats is a drop in the bucket to what all you guys know. I just throw in my 2 cents now and then.
1000, was your wife around when you posted this? She reads that stuff, you better be lookin' over your shoulder.
You know those E pumps are a whole different animal than the rest of the Berkley pump family. Yes all the componets are interchangable in the pump but you are dealing with that crapy inserted intake that, I'm sure you noticed, makes your Berkley look so different from everyone elses. We sold a ton of these little set ups at Advantage in the little 18' bubble deck because it gave a couple more inches room inside the boat. Personaly I'd rather have the 12JG and give up the room. I think you are very limited with your intake options but I'd check with some one like Shoemaker to see what can be done. I've never messed with an E pump except for building them in new boats. You would think there is more there (MPH) but I don't know.
They were marketed as an economical little package and we even set them up with small block chevys.
Hey, if it runs good and is trouble free, that's half the battle. Just enjoy the boat.
[This message has been edited by old rigger (edited August 24, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by old rigger (edited August 24, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by old rigger (edited August 24, 2001).]

old rigger

08-24-2001, 07:45 AM

After rereading your post had a few more thoughts.
The only way that set up will do 70 or even close to 70 with a stock 454 is being towed on a trailer.
If you are turning 5000 with a PROPERLY set up pump and an A impeller, you are hauling ass, and the BBC is just starting to reach the RPM'S where some good HP can be generated.
Sounds like wear ring problems, just a guess.
[This message has been edited by old rigger (edited August 24, 2001).]

Heatseeker

08-24-2001, 08:29 AM

I have to agree with everyone, you must have pump problems. I also have a Caribbean with a 330hp 454(with some slight mods). I spin 4500 at 59mph with an 'A' cut in a somewhat worn JG. You are definitly losing thrust somewhere. I'd take the whole set up back to the guy who alledgedly 'rebuilt' it. Tell those guys you'll ruin them on these boards if they don't make it right!!!

racingrascal

08-24-2001, 09:02 AM

Heatseeker Im you with you brother! Take it back and say what the F**k? If they don't choose to be of service we can black list them! And take them down right here. There is a thread under hot boat hot spots it is like a soap oper. We are all like hungry sharks and will tear this company apart! Lets know when the bashing can begin!
Andy

Brendella

08-24-2001, 09:24 AM

I called Adm once ask a guy about the linkage for a panther reverse. Replied, "yes we have it," so I ask how much,he replied,"I'm to f##cking busy to find out.so I replied F U . if he is treating people like that that means his work is most likely not so good.
P.S. he did the same thing to a friend on a ? for rudders.

HavasuBarney

08-24-2001, 09:26 AM

I have an idea that might work on your boat, anyone want to hear it?

spectras only

08-24-2001, 09:46 AM

Barney,go ahead ,make my day http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

racingrascal

08-24-2001, 10:13 AM

No Barney nobody needs any thing to fix breakfast with.
Andy

1000mhz

08-24-2001, 12:46 PM

Well thanks for all the great replies guys.
After extensive web research, I found that it apears that I have a JG pump. After looking at diagrams from cpp I noticed that my pump resembles the JG more than any other model. I cant believe that guy told me I had an E. I told him I was thinking of doing the rebuild myself to save some $$. I wonder if he was steering me in the wrong direction to confuse me and get my business (maybe Im thinking to much). Anyway, the only reason why I think its an A impeller is because thats what he said he used. Is there a way to identify when I r&r this thing again?
Flat-broke, You are right. I am not used to the jet-Ovator and I basically either was throwing a roost, or had the bow all the way down. Next time im out (tommorrow)I will make sure I take your advice, but would that take 30 mph away from me? This boat is not even pulling hardly either.
flat broke- Can you give me MPD's site,address,phone#?
(I think they just got a new customer)
I am going to talk to ADM today. I will post here and let you guys know the results. I dont think its going to be pretty cause the guy is an asshole. Its great to hear there are other places to go for help
(closer than Corona)out there. Thanks again guys, and please keep the replies comming!
This board kicks ass!

Joker

08-24-2001, 01:10 PM

All the impellors I have ever purchased were stamped on the inside of one of the blades close to the sleeve with the type. There are only a few things that will get ya if your boat is not "hooked". 1. The intake grate needs to be "straight and clean" so water can get into the impellor easily. 2. The impellor blades should be sharp and smooth on the low pressure side so loading is even and unagitated. 3. Wear ring clearances must be there to avoid water getting back into the low pressure side instead of going into your rooster. 4. Inspection cover must be on tight to avoid pulling in air to impellor suction. I am no expert but I would say that with your big block an "a" impellor and 5000 RPM you should get 60-65 MPH. Any supposed pump rebuilders with half a brain and a desire to retain customers should understand that they did not do there job properly and offer to do it right.......thats my nickels worth.....good luck.

ChetCapoli

08-24-2001, 01:49 PM

Hey 1000,
Look right where your engine sits on the pump where the grease fitting is. Behind that will be your ID plate to tell what model berk you have for sure. BTW, ADM should fix your pump for free with a smile on their face. If not, i would just save the $$ and do it yourself.....saves you from being flatbroke anyways. Good luck.
Chet

flat broke

08-24-2001, 01:53 PM

Here is the information for MPD.
Marine Performance Designs. 1760 Monrovia St. Unit
A-7. Costa Mesa, Ca. 92627. 949-631-2040. MPD ... http://home.pacbell.net/jmcclure/
You are right to go after ADM before anything else. You're hull should at least do 60 if that 454 is spining 5k in the water. In regard to the place diverter/jetovator, unfortunately it isn't hurting you 30mph. If you have a GPS and a camera, I would get a pic of your tach and the GPS display in the same shot just so the a$$ at ADM doesn't try and blame it on a speedo or something lame like that. Good luck and let us know what you find in going through your setup and your dealings with ADM.
Chris
BTW CHET, nowhere did I say have Jack rebuild your pump. I Was merely pointing him to a knowledgable source on setup etc. Lay off with the attitude and instigating.
[This message has been edited by flat broke (edited August 24, 2001).]

old rigger

08-24-2001, 03:10 PM

Joker,
I have to agree with what you said. Good advice.
I think a little 18 jet running 5000 with an A would be closer to somewhere between 65 and 70.
But again, a Stock (and tired?) 454 pulling a fresh rebuild with a A impeller at 5000? Ain't gonna happen. Not unless something was done wrong in the pump, which in this case is obvious.
Should run 4500-4600 all day long.
[This message has been edited by old rigger (edited August 24, 2001).]

Old Charger

08-24-2001, 04:44 PM

Hey 1000mhz, (whats that mean anyways?)
Sorry to hear about yer probs. with ADM. I went there once to buy a used rudder for my ride. I think I got an okay price, but I dont think I'd ever take my pump there for work.
The guy WAS a TOTAL ASS, the type you could tell shouldnt be in this business, especially if he doesnt enjoy anymore. Then, with all the ads in Hot Boat, here in this forum, and the yellow pages, I was kinda expecting a large, nice shop. Nope. The walk in area was TINY and stacked with books and crap all over the place, like 4 ft tall. I dunno, I dont want to judge a place by its looks, but that place kinda gave me the heebies. Plus I'd be afraid he'd loose some of my parts in the mess!!

Aduner2

08-24-2001, 06:25 PM

Hey 1000mhz
1) If you have an e pump, it would be difficult to remove from boat. The suction piece is bolted and epoxed to the hull. The intake is molded into the bottom of the hull. There is no transom adapter and the hand hole is outside the hull. Sounds like you have either a "C" or "G" (split bowl)pump.
2) How did you come up with 40 mph? Speedo, gps, racing friend?
Depending on the condition of the motor and a properly working tach, 5000 rpm with an "A" impeller would take about 350-400 hp. I would agree with most that you should be in the mid-high 60's if properly trimmed out.

1000mhz

08-24-2001, 08:55 PM

I love the responces you get from this forum!
flat broke and chet have some problems. I have reviewed a lot of posts here and noticed that you guys DO NOT get along at all.
I do have to agree with flat broke a little more than Chet.
If I were extremely satisfied with the work
performed on my boat, I would be pushing business all over for the guy.
Ill say it for you, Im new and dont know shit! But I just think you guys have some great advice, and even better you get
two totally different views on the subject.
thats what makes this forum so great. I guess the bashing adds to the fun, so keep it comming. Im thinking (hoping) that there would be chuckles more than fists thrown whenever you guys get together on one of these get togethers.
Anyway, back to ME and MY problems....
Chet, the ID plate is ripped off but I identified it as a JG pump.
Flat-broke, Don at ADM wasnt in today, but I am getting a lot of E Mail talking a lot of crap on ADM.
I have learned my lesson.
Thanks for the info on MPD.
OldCharger,
1000mhz (speed of my PC) for us computer geeks. Im on a lot of different forums, so I keep the same name and password so I can always post no matter where I am.
Aduner2, It appears I have a G pump. I gotta say Im very happy to find this out. After looking at the diagrams it looks like a much better pump than the E!
You guys are great and thanks for all the great info.

ChetCapoli

08-24-2001, 09:12 PM

BTW CHET, nowhere did I say have Jack rebuild your pump. I Was merely pointing him to a knowledgable source on setup etc. Lay off with the attitude and instigating.
[This message has been edited by flat broke (edited August 24, 2001).][/B][/QUOTE]
(please dont say anything to chet)
[This message has been edited by flat broke
(edited August 24,2001).][/B][/QUOTE]
hey flatbroke....i'm a little confused on the above...care to elaborate?
BTW, 1000
if flatbroke brings the pom pom club's special donuts, i'll meet him anytime. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
CHET

Leon

08-24-2001, 09:16 PM

the only guy I ever seen agree with Chet was none other than Slowboat 001!

Leon

08-24-2001, 09:20 PM

Hell of a marketing plan eh? Advertise all over hell then do substandard work and treat all of the people who respond to your ads like $hit. Three cheers for ADM!

ChetCapoli

08-25-2001, 04:31 AM

Hey leon,
What kind of boat did you say you have?

Joker

08-25-2001, 04:58 AM

HIP HIP HOORAY..... http://www.goldenplasma.f2s.com/forum/smilies/mad60.gif

Bubbledeck2

08-25-2001, 07:15 AM

OK, let's look at this scientifically ...
ADM and MPD both have 3 letters in their name.
Both places do pump work for boats.
ADM seems to treat people badly and people that go there walk away unhappy.
MPD supplies customers with donuts.
MPD seems to have a happy and loyal following.
So my conclusion here is that donuts will always attract more people than a@@holes.

old rigger

08-25-2001, 07:45 AM

Bubbledeck 2,
I think they have a hidden agenda with giving away free donuts. As the boat owners plump up from the free food their boats will become slower, thus, they will need more work by the speed shop to get the boat to haul their newly accuired girth at the same speed it did before.
Brilliant!!!!
1000,
count your lucky stars you didn't end up with an E pump.

luvmyboat

08-25-2001, 08:08 AM

Just jumping in on the "ADM" bandwagon. I used to have a panther jet that was in bad shape. I took the boat to ADM to swap over to a Berk. When I launched the boat and idled out with a boat to my right.....I passed the no wake bouy, turned left, hit the gas and damn near ran the guy over! I realized that the steering was installed wrong. I went around the lake to tese the pump. ( WEIRD FEELING, steer left to turn right!) Got home, fixed the problem and called ADM. They were AS@#@%$S! No apology, just "Oh, well....". Never again!
Mike

flat broke

08-26-2001, 01:47 PM

Chet,
When you quote someone, make sure you actually site their passage verbatim. I wrote (and please don't say anything Chet). NOT "and please don't say anything to Chet"; which changes the meaning greatly. The reason I said don't say anything is because the guy is looking for some advice and not your Anti Berk, anti MPD rhetoric.
As for the donuts and pom pom club; what is your deal? If you got bad service or talked to someone at MPD on the phone and got a bad impression, then say so. Otherwise, you are just someone that is speculating as to what goes on at MPD. Your current activities are no different than me stating you have warts on your a$$ and give great head. Having never met you, I don't know this is true, but if I stick to my story long enough someone will buy it. Since I'm sure you'll imply I got extra donuts or something for taking the time to question you, think about this. The only reason I take offense to you bad mouthing MPD is because it is the ONLY shop I have ever been to with perhaps the exception of Teague Custom Marine, where the owner takes the time to sit with his customers and go over their needs. Then take those needs and find the most cost effective way to fulfill them. And if upon completion of the job, he came in under his quote, he tells you so and charges accordingly. The bottom line is Jack does a great job at a fair price. You have no place to slander MPD as you have never had work done there. If you want to complain about the quality of Berkley bowls, fine. But when it comes to belittling someone who does an outstanding job at what he does when you have no justification, I don't care if it is MPD, my brother or a co-worker, I'll speak up and set you in your place because I have no tolerance for ignorance.

SuckMyWake

08-26-2001, 04:34 PM

Hi there,
I have a '76 18' Taylor SJ with a 360 Horsepower 455 Olds and a 'B' impeller in a 12JE pump. I run 60 MPH GPS at 5100 RPM. An 'A' impeller wouls drop me back to 4800. Is your boat an SJ?? If so, you probaly have the "E" pump also.
I ran your problem by my local Jet Pump rebuilder here in Houston (Mike Ward of Mikes Pump and Speed). He said your pump probably was rebuilt with too much clearance between the wear ring and the impeller. That's why your hitting 5000 RPM with a 'A' impeller. WIth too much clearance, the impeller is easier for the engine to turn and you lose a ton of thrust (speed).
-Todd

CrazyHippy

08-26-2001, 08:07 PM

Whoa, Chet has warts on his ass.....LOL!!!!
Flat broke said so...
hehehe
BJ

ChetCapoli

08-26-2001, 08:37 PM

Hey flatbroke,
I love how you change it ALL around here. You are right, the guy was looking for advice...not a hint on where to take it, just an answer to his problem! Why not give him an answer instead of paying your "club" dues? This last guy here(todd) actually mentioned someone other than than your shop..i mean wow! Can you believe it. I'm waiting for someone to bad mouth mike's pump and speed now and say take it to your shop. Then the "cheerleaders" can take over like they like to do.
There must be 10 qualified shops in CA and another 10 in the rest of the US. How is anyone supposed to know which is better? Like you said, you only know of one other than MPD and that's teague...your a wealth of knowledge i can tell.
Can you name 3 other jet guru's that have been in business for 25 years or longer?? I wonder if you can.
As i said before, i visit these forums for INFORMATION and who uses what parts to make their boat go faster....not where i should take my pump because i rather eat donuts then have an idea of what's done to my boat and pump and how to make it faster...understand? I'm a hands on kinda guy and your not, i guess that's the difference. So, lets not start with this anti berk,anti MPD retoric as you mentioned ok pal? You obviously havent tried too many parts in your pump or even work on your pump, so how do you really know if your boat wouldn't go faster with something else other than berk? Answer, YOU DONT!
The way the "club" talks around here, you'd think A/T, Dom,and Agg will be out of business by the year 2005 and legend and berk will be the only ones standing. Aggressor and A/T are heavy into R&D, is anyone else????
BTW, do you know how this stuff started back 3 months or so ago? I dont think you do because your way off base with what you say..or maybe it's SPECulation on my part as usual.
Did you ever wonder why no other shop or jet guru visits these boards to share the vast knowledge of jets they have with us pal??? If you have a good answer to that, i'm all ears!
Chet
P.S. I must have read your post wrong, big diff between quotes and parenthesis. I should have known better, too bad i dont. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

flat broke

08-26-2001, 09:17 PM

Im not mechanical.. sure whatever you say. When I get back from my Labor Day trip I'll have the GPS numbers and pics to back it up on the new motor that was built, tuned and installed into the boat which also had the interior, electrical and everything else except the pump blueprint done by none other than your favorite cheerleader. 10 qualified shops in CA... maybe, but only a handful of reputable ones. Oh yeah and just so you don't get confused, Teague isn't one of them. They specialize in I/O stuff but have some nice mechanicals and rigging goods in stock as well, plus the tastiest damn donuts in all of So Cal.

1000mhz

08-28-2001, 08:15 PM

The news......
ADM sucks ass and will not back there work for shit. The owners knees are in such bad shape he hasnt been boating in decades (if ever), and he has an illegal alien perform all the work.
I talked to a lot of people about ADM and have found nothing but bad performance from that shop.
warering clearance is something they have been ****ing up on for years, Im just the latest victom!
So, the good news.......
MPD is comparable to ADM like night and day! This place was great. Jack spoke with me for what seemed like hours on everything about my boat and what I need to do to achive that 70 mph I was hoping for. He was not shy in telling me all the bad things wrong with my Taylor. I feel very confident now about everything with my boat. This guy really helped me out. I will only be going to him from now on.
Chet, he even had a lot of agg stuff in stock.
I wouldnt knock this guy like you do. He gets a lot of cheerleaders because he does great business and knows his shit.
The bad news........
The rear end went out in my truck today on the way home from mpd. I guess its better that it happened here than half way to havy.
I WAS leaving tommorow morning, not now.
anybody wanna tow me out there??
FUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!
thanks again for all the great rplys.
[This message has been edited by 1000mhz (edited August 28, 2001).]

riverlover

08-29-2001, 02:34 AM

I think I realized the problem with your pump bro. You let ADM work on it. I didn't know about all the probs there. I know where I WON'T be taking my boat EVER.
I am so sick of sh!t service and con men. 1000mhz my hats off to you for dropping the dime and giving us the 411 on this hump.
This ADM guy advertises right at the top of this page. Where in the world does he think someone that gets screwed by him is going to go. Uh, maybe the forums? I wonder if he can spell bankrupt?
RL
[This message has been edited by riverlover (edited August 29, 2001).]