PDA

View Full Version : Teachers - Merit Based Pay, your thoughts?



Havasu_Dreamin
01-10-2005, 02:53 PM
Ok, so by now, most of us in California have heard that the Governator wants to change the way teachers are paid and basically do away with tenure. Arnie is proposing that teachers be paid based on their performance, that is, like it is in the private sector. I continully receive low marks in my job, my a$$ is out the door looking for a new job, not so in the current system. One would think that if this were to go into effect, those teachers that slack off because they have tenure would either, no longer receive raises or quite possibly lose their jobs. Your thoughts?

Boozer
01-10-2005, 02:55 PM
Ok, so by now, most of us in California have heard that the Governator wants to change the way teachers are paid and basically do away with tenure. Arnie is proposing that teachers be paid based on their performance, that is, like it is in the private sector. I continully receive low marks in my job, my a$$ is out the door looking for a new job, not so in the current system. One would think that if this were to go into effect, those teachers that slack off because they have tenure would either, no longer receive raises or quite possibly lose their jobs. Your thoughts?
Who grades the performance?

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 03:00 PM
California now requires that all teachers continue their education to keep their credential up to date. If they don't, they don't get paid.
Also, California requires performance from schools districts- if they don't, they lose funding.
Californa does not pay the teachers- the district does.

Havasu_Dreamin
01-10-2005, 03:01 PM
Who grades the performance?
Good question. As yet to be decided from the articles I have read about it.
Keeping away from the question of who determines the criteria and how a teacher is measured against said criteria, does it make sense to do this to teachers? Will it attract or discourage people from becoming teachers?? I know some people I went to school with, both HS and college, were going to use teaching as a fallback option in case they did not find, and I'm quoting here, "....a real job." Is that the type of person that we want teaching the kids?

Havasu_Dreamin
01-10-2005, 03:02 PM
Californa does not pay the teachers- the district does.
True, but the law would be amended to make it mandatory that districts use a pay for performance model in compensating their teachers. Not sure how I feel about it, on one hand it seems to make sense and on the other I wonder about it working.

Powerquestboy
01-10-2005, 03:07 PM
I disargee BIG TIME. First of all you amy get a group of slow learners or a group of kids that are good students but bad test takers. Since they cant judge saleries by the grade the teacher gives them in the class, ie Teachers could give all their kids A's in order to get a pay raise. I'm sure the teachers pay would be decided on grades of standardized tests. The other thing to take into consideration is many kids arent getting the help and encouragement at home. If the kids parents dont take an active role in the learning and they are not helped and pushed to study, do homework etc. The teachers pay should not be affected. I dont know what the answer is but I dont think this is it.

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 03:09 PM
True, but the law would be amended to make it mandatory that districts use a pay for performance model in compensating their teachers. Not sure how I feel about it, on one hand it seems to make sense and on the other I wonder about it working.
If that were to happen, you'd probably have teachers passing kids just to get paid...it already happens at the district level.
California already requires today's teacher to be up to date on the California standards (and it's not cheap), and requires the district to follow it. If you shift all that accountability to the teacher level, I feel sorry for the kids.

mirvin
01-10-2005, 03:16 PM
Nobody seems to be talking about the fact that our schools have been over run by children that DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH. Good luck taking a test when you can't read the language.
m (both parents are LAUSD teachers) irvin :cool:

Wicky
01-10-2005, 03:18 PM
Great idea!! Everything in life should be based on merit.
Wicky

mirvin
01-10-2005, 03:29 PM
I think this is a good idea, but for reasons other than the popular one. Teachers these days, as they always have been, end up being handcuffed in the classroom. They are not in charge of disciplin therefore they cannot be in charge of the classroom. You simply can't force a kid to learn and do well if they're not getting the support they need outside the classroom. Until parents and school districts are willing to make the tough choices needed to put controll of the classroom back into the teachers hands it's rediculous to try to attach merit to the teacher........
mirvin

Havasu_Dreamin
01-10-2005, 03:32 PM
Interesting comments. Now, the big question, what the phuck happened? California used to be known for it's public education system. Now we're just above Louisiana and Mississippi in the rankings! Personally, I fell the school districts are too top heavy with administrative staff. The funds need to be better sued and poaying administrators salaries aint the answer. Also, I know the school district I went all through school in spent $2.5MM on making all of the classrooms at one of the elementary schools wired for the net and it still does not work! WTF!?!?!?!?! It aint that hard!

spectratoad
01-10-2005, 03:36 PM
Californa does not pay the teachers- the district does.
So where does the district get their money from????
I live in Nevada but I do believe that teachers or at least the administration should be payed according to performance.
One start would be to get the unions dumb a$$es out of it. If you pay the administration based on the performance of their teachers and students then things may change.
We just had our school district hire a new top dog, $170K a fricken year. WTF does this guy do to deserve that sort of pay?????? :jawdrop:

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 03:48 PM
So where does the district get their money from????
My point is how can the state dictate pay-for-performance when they don't currently even dictate how much teachers are paid?
The distrct interviews, hires, pays, and fires teachers. The district is a contractor for the state, and turns out a product based on the requirements of the state.
That would be like the US government telling Boeing how much to pay it's employees on a government contract.
If the scores suck...maybe the state should change it's parameters required for students to pass to the next grade. As it sits now, they don't even require the student to speak English. I have seen kids passed to the next grade who spoke only Chinese, Romanian, etc.
Once again, the politians are looking in the wrong direction...

HM
01-10-2005, 03:49 PM
Give the public school system some competition - via vouchers. Take their money away and see what happens. They will either make the needed improvements (most likely) or collapse (not likely, but we can dream).
Bust the unions.
Outsource the administration and fire the district.
please keep the wringing-hand-cry-baby-it-is-not-fair comments in your liberal la-la land.
My kids will have a combination of home school and charter school. The Temecula Valley has the largest home-school network in the country. All the stories about home-school kids lacking social skills is the biggest piece of propaganda the public school system can muster, since the home-school system blasts the public school system in all "measurable" areas. So they spew out the social skills crap that is completely false.
Some one on here had some crap about certain data not being factored into home schooling, again was a bunch a crap as they could not back it up, just make allegations like most liberals who are about to have their asses hand to them.
Maybe some day I will let you know how I really feel. :wink: Nobody focks with my kids and their education especially liberal panzies with no kids. :hammer2:

SHOTKALLIN
01-10-2005, 03:52 PM
Very touchy subject. What about the teachers that brave the combat zone of some of our worse schools. Is it thier fault that the students at thier school have underachieving crackheads for parents? Should these teachers be penalized because the little crack dealer students barely show up to class and when they do its to sell more crack? This may sound extreme but its not. I would be very curious to see how they decide who's doing thier job and who's not. I wish Arnold would spend some of his time figuring out which school districts are corrupt. Alot of funds get embezzled every year that are ment for supplies. This is common in the inner city when corrupt people run city government. Omar Bradley was ripping off Compton for years as the Mayor and he also had a position on the school board in the city of Lynwood. This happens in society because Important people's children don't go to school in the ghetto. But what about the decent teachers that will suffer?

HM
01-10-2005, 03:54 PM
BTW - while I am majorly conservative, GDubya's "No child left behind" is a big stinking turd ball. F'ing republicans giving into the liberals with "feel good" law making that sounds good but does the exact opposite - which is "no child gets ahead" by purposeful oppression of children who can accelerate in acadamia.

Wicky
01-10-2005, 04:18 PM
Eliminate property taxes...eliminate public schools...and let the cream rise to the top in the private sector!!!

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 04:20 PM
In theory, it's a great idea. Poor teachers and those who don't give a crap should be held accountable. However, as someone mentioned, how do you judge those teachers that teach in inner city areas, where the children are allowed to stay up until 11 pm and don't get adequate nutrition or thier parents do drugs, or maybe did drugs while pregnant/nursing, or won't take the time to ensure homework gets done? Should those teachers get canned because thier students scores don't go up from one year to the next? English Language Learners only have one year to learn English before they have to take the same test as everyone else.
I don't know what the answer is, but the whole system is broken. Hey, I know, why don't we have the public approve a bond measure for schools and then use it for something else? That'll work! :yuk:

haulina29
01-10-2005, 04:20 PM
I agree with HollyMolly 100 percent some one above asked what happened to our schools lol well they are right behind the hospitals that had close go figure .

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 04:27 PM
p.s. no matter how much power the governor has, I don't think he can get this idea past the union. The public supports the teachers union too much, at least around here.

HM
01-10-2005, 04:29 PM
Eliminate property taxes...eliminate public schools...and let the cream rise to the top in the private sector!!!
That would be unfair to the dredges on the bottom. :wink: You got my vote!
BTW - if we wanted to make inner schools worse...how would we do that? The liberal "feel good" thought process is getting to many of you. Get a backbone and do what is right. Parents in the inner city who actually care about their kids will jump all over vouchers - they want them, but are denied because the kids whose who have parents who don't care will suffer? So what to do with the kids left over?...what do they do with them now?
You guys should read Charles Barkley's new book...he slams the ghetto - and he came from there.

ECeptor
01-10-2005, 04:35 PM
Eliminate property taxes...eliminate public schools...and let the cream rise to the top in the private sector!!!
If you go that far, why not just have a caste system to boot?
Seriously, every kid from every economic, social, and ethnic background deserves a good k-12 education. Such a “right” should be added to the constitution.

SHOTKALLIN
01-10-2005, 04:44 PM
That would be unfair to the dredges on the bottom. :wink: You got my vote!
BTW - if we wanted to make inner schools worse...how would we do that? The liberal "feel good" thought process is getting to many of you. Get a backbone and do what is right. Parents in the inner city who actually care about their kids will jump all over vouchers - they want them, but are denied because the kids whose who have parents who don't care will suffer? So what to do with the kids left over?...what do they do with them now?
You guys should read Charles Barkley's new book...he slams the ghetto - and he came from there.
I feel you but we are not talking about the kids....we are talking about the teachers. you have good teachers that live in nice area raising good families in nice areas that work in the hood. so do we just say phuck those teachers?
they should have got a job in Canyon Lake?

SHOTKALLIN
01-10-2005, 04:47 PM
If you go that far, why not just have a caste system to boot?
Seriously, every kid from every economic, social, and ethnic background deserves a good k-12 education. Such a “right” should be added to the constitution.
What if they are Illegal? or thier parents are Illegal??? :rollside:

Rock-A-Bye-Baby
01-10-2005, 04:49 PM
This is such a touchy subject but I have some thoughts on it. One thought i have is that the education system should not shy away from putting demands on students. In order to that, you have to have teachers that know what they are doing and can commit to the job. And equally important, those teacher have to WANT to do it. Now, i see the flaws in the system, and the absence of support at home. But, it is not fair to those kids that can handle it, that do handle it, and can excel at a faster rate. I think it should be about challenging kids to learn.
To answer more specifically the question, yes i think they should work on merit. But it will be impossible to do if they are judged on the pass/fail results of their class. Maybe it could be based on the quality of lesson plans and execution of the plan. If the teachers are good, ultimately (in a matter of time) the pass/fail ratio will improve. I think that the kids are too empowered now. it's almost becoming excusable to fail.

HM
01-10-2005, 04:54 PM
If you go that far, why not just have a caste system to boot?
Seriously, every kid from every economic, social, and ethnic background deserves a good k-12 education. Such a “right” should be added to the constitution.
More la-la land feel good thoughts. Don't let reality that it doesn't work change your view. All socialist programs eventually fail - period. They get what they pay for...or I should say...they get what I pay for. Our school system is eroding because it has no value.
Why just a k-12 education? Why not k-PhD? Or k-10...or some other arbitrary level that takes out the current effectiveness. The problem is that the government socialist programs are based on faulty premise...that the government knows how to raise peoples children better than the parents. The condition of the current system is proof. Just yank all the money out and direct to the parents who care and let the others fall will they may - as they already do. Put some value in it, fear of loss them into wanting it, and realize you cannot force the remainder to want it, use it, or learn from it.
Caste system, that is funny. Not to be a dick (too late, I know) but are you completely oblivious to that it is already failing? I am willing to wipe the slate clean...because you already currently have the worst case scenario....only place to go from here is up.
The hand wringing and social destruction drama are century old liberal ideals that don't work. And if anyone disagrees, they are trying to steal a "right" from our citizens and they are mean. The only mean ones are the ones that currently force the citizens to participate in a proven failure.
If I ever get a chance to redirect my taxes to private systems or pull it out all together, you can bet your ass I will. The current system is a total waste of the "citizens" money.

HM
01-10-2005, 05:01 PM
I feel you but we are not talking about the kids....we are talking about the teachers. you have good teachers that live in nice area raising good families in nice areas that work in the hood. so do we just say phuck those teachers?
they should have got a job in Canyon Lake?
Yes...scrap the whole deal is my view. ......and there are very few jobs in Canyon Lake, but there are a lot of business owners, unless you want to be a rent-a-cop for $8/hr.
I know, I am mean.....when something has proven to fail, I scrap it, learn from it, and start over.

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 05:06 PM
Well, originally, in this country, schools were built and ran by the towns in the 1800s. The town hired and fired the teachers, by way of the school board. There was no state or federal involvement. Perhaps that would be better now than the present system. The only problem is that the poorer districts where people don't pay high property taxes are screwed. But it's an idea.
HolyMoly, I don't know why you seem to be getting so upset, I'm pretty sure your kids have decent teachers in a "performing school." Relax, man. :D

SHOTKALLIN
01-10-2005, 05:12 PM
I have friends in Canyon Lake. Everyone in C.L. is not rich. And I'm sure there are some teachers in Canyon Lake. It would be sad if they lost thier lifestyle because they happen to teach in the ghetto. But hey according to you phuck em. They might as well eliminate public school in alot of areas. Well some of us went to those schools and have done something with our lives. So I disagree. Everyone deserves at least one shot in life. If you phuck it off then its your fault, but, everyone should at least the one get the shot. For many people its public school.

mike37
01-10-2005, 05:12 PM
we need public schools but there are some lazy ass teachers out there
and they need to go
but the best way to do that is a hard one to say
the merit system would work if all things were equal but thats not so what do ya do

Dribble
01-10-2005, 05:24 PM
The problem (as I see it) is that teachers will be teaching the students to pass the tests (that will be given) to rate their own performance. There is more to learning and intelligence then having the ability to pass a test. Hence the term "College Idiot". There needs to be a better system than we have now. I would propose a more gradual transition to a system that identifies individual students aptitude and enhances the educational experience based upon different areas of success. When we stop trying to put 100% of the students into four year colleges and focus on vocational education as well as scholastics, we will be more successful.
My 02.

SHOTKALLIN
01-10-2005, 05:24 PM
I think you should test the teachers. The ones that don't pass get the boot. the test should have to do with setting up lesson plans as well as knowledge of certain criteria. I'm not a teacher but I'm sure there is a way to determine if a teacher is worthless.

SHOTKALLIN
01-10-2005, 05:28 PM
The problem (as I see it) is that teachers will be teaching the students to pass the tests (that will be given) to rate their own performance. There is more to learning and intelligence then having the ability to pass a test. Hence the term "College Idiot". There needs to be a better system then we have now. I would propose a more gradual transition to a system that identifies individual students aptitude and enhances the educational experience based upon different areas of success. When we stop trying to put 100% of the students into four year colleges and focus on vocational education as well as scholastics, we will be more successful.
My 02.
How would you take some smart ass telling you your son would make a hell of a janitor. Just look at the way he grips that broom! His future is golden!!
I know what you mean but society will never let it happen because all the lower income areas will have all the vocational programs. The ACLU would go nuts.

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 05:47 PM
I think you should test the teachers. The ones that don't pass get the boot. the test should have to do with setting up lesson plans as well as knowledge of certain criteria. I'm not a teacher but I'm sure there is a way to determine if a teacher is worthless.
Test the teachers?
Already done. Teachers get evaluated on a regular basis. The principal sits in on the lessons, and judges them based on the state standards.
They are also given "surprise inspections" to check their lesson plans, etc.
I think you guys are on the right track with a parents resposibility. Mrs HH and I were just talking about this the other day...how sad it was that she has had students that are homeless (most lived in a car), and the parents told her that they would never be able to do homework.
The politians are looking in the easiest place, but the wrong place.

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 05:57 PM
But HH, you know that those "surprise" inspections and such are subjective. The principal can look and overlook what he or she wishes depending on the teacher-principal relationship. I don't think the testing of teachers is a bad idea. If they don't do well, they have one semester or year to do better (by taking some courses or studying more) or they are gone. As a current substitute teacher and credential student, I think the idea has merit.

Debbolas
01-10-2005, 05:58 PM
My point is how can the state dictate pay-for-performance when they don't currently even dictate how much teachers are paid?
The distrct interviews, hires, pays, and fires teachers. The district is a contractor for the state, and turns out a product based on the requirements of the state.
That would be like the US government telling Boeing how much to pay it's employees on a government contract.
If the scores suck...maybe the state should change it's parameters required for students to pass to the next grade. As it sits now, they don't even require the student to speak English. I have seen kids passed to the next grade who spoke only Chinese, Romanian, etc.
Once again, the politians are looking in the wrong direction...
Probably the same way they enforced the 20 sized classrooms for grades K-3rd. If you school does not qualify, you lose State funding. Some schools in Rialto ( I think) had to give up their funding because they couldn't meet the less than 20 kids per class.
I think pay = merit is a good idea, but how will you determine the teachers worth. You all have to understand a school is like a little town, with popular people, evil people, people that want to get ahead and kiss butts, people that just want to get by and finally people that want to teach kids.
How would you decide the teachers merit?
If you pick test scores, wait a moment, the schools with non-english speaking children are at an immediate disadvantage. (although, there are some schools that you can go from K to 6th without ever speaking english and do fine) What if the kids are all gate kids (gifted and talented education)? then those kids will learn faster......What if some of the children have test anxiety or are drug babies?
So, ok, no test scores, how are you going to determine how well the teacher teaches? Principals already do spot classroom visits, they observe teachers as part of their review. What if the principal is best friends with the teacher? Does she get a HUGE pay raise? What if the principal doesn't like the teacher, does she get screwed? If the principal gives more to one teacher, does that mean she can't give any to another, who decides the rewards?
PLEASE do not say the administrators, because exist for grants and loans and publicity only. They haven't had any "hands on" teaching/kid experience for a long time. Or they are busy training all the staff and have their heads in the clouds ...... :rolleyes:
It's an interesting idea....but how will it be enforced? regulated?

ECeptor
01-10-2005, 06:00 PM
Caste system, that is funny. Not to be a dick (too late, I know) but are you completely oblivious to that it is already failing? I am willing to wipe the slate clean...because you already currently have the worst case scenario....only place to go from here is up.
Wow! I guess I feel as though the US is the best place on earth right now to raise my family. I, unlike you, certainly harbor no thoughts near your "wipe the slate clean" ones.
We certainly are all entitled to our opinions, that's what great about the US. But if you want the slate wiped clean, just leave me and mine alone in the process!

ECeptor
01-10-2005, 06:03 PM
What if they are Illegal? or thier parents are Illegal??? :rollside:
Good question. For sure immigrants, both legal and illegal, have been targets ever since the US was born. It would be interesting to know how many of us here are decentants from illegal or quasi illegal immigrants. For sure, the only true natives have some of the worst schools...and they were here first!!!

Debbolas
01-10-2005, 06:05 PM
The problem (as I see it) is that teachers will be teaching the students to pass the tests (that will be given) to rate their own performance. There is more to learning and intelligence then having the ability to pass a test. Hence the term "College Idiot". There needs to be a better system then we have now. I would propose a more gradual transition to a system that identifies individual students aptitude and enhances the educational experience based upon different areas of success. When we stop trying to put 100% of the students into four year colleges and focus on vocational education as well as scholastics, we will be more successful.
My 02.
This happens already, Schools are under a lot of pressure to have a certain percentage of kids pass their benchmark tests. Teachers teach for this test for a good portion of the year. I work in Title one, when benchmark testing comes around, we drop what we are doing and assist with the benchmark testing.
At another school (not the one I am at now) I have actually seen a teacher give a child the answer to a question on the benchmark test. She also left up posters to "help" the children. The classrooms are scouted and all "helpfull" posters are removed before testing begins.... :hammerhea
Please keep in mind the educational field is based on a swinging pendelum, it swings back and forth, from nazi to "feel good, it's ok, you tried to write a sentence". When my son was in 2nd grade, it was "ok" for him to "sound out" the words he was writing, the teacher never corrected it.
Now we are teaching 1st graders to write complete sentences correctly!
It just swings back and forth, from testing to over testing to not testing.....
It's like the educational system has no memory.......

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 06:07 PM
But HH, you know that those "surprise" inspections and such are subjective. The principal can look and overlook what he or she wishes depending on the teacher-principal relationship. I don't think the testing of teachers is a bad idea. If they don't do well, they have one semester or year to do better (by taking some courses or studying more) or they are gone. As a current substitute teacher and credential student, I think the idea has merit.
There are very strict rules on what the state standards are, and what is required of the teachers. Mrs. HH has taught at 5 different schools, (4 public, 1 private), and the private school was the only one that didn't care about the state standards.
Of those 4 schools that adhered to the state standards, no principal ever showed special treatment to any teacher. They couldn't...the school's funding is dependant on test scores. If they let a teacher slide...they are risking their own job.
There is no "secret handshake" club. If a teacher is falling behind (like Mrs. HH's current partner), then she gets put on probation, and fired.

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 06:08 PM
And we just try to do what they tell us, right Deb? :messedup: Until they change their mind and tell us to do something else.

Debbolas
01-10-2005, 06:17 PM
There are very strict rules on what the state standards are, and what is required of the teachers. Mrs. HH has taught at 5 different schools, (4 public, 1 private), and the private school was the only one that didn't care about the state standards.
Of those 4 schools that adhered to the state standards, no principal ever showed special treatment to any teacher. They couldn't...the school's funding is dependant on test scores. If they let a teacher slide...they are risking their own job.
There is no "secret handshake" club. If a teacher is falling behind (like Mrs. HH's current partner), then she gets put on probation, and fired.
I don't know, we had a few teachers we were PRAYING to retire. They just babysat the kids, they did nothing with them. It was common knowledge that if a child went into that class, they had better learn on their own, because their teacher wasn't going to help them.....
Our district started offering "early retirement" to some teachers, to get some younger (cheaper) blood in there. The thing is, if you get your masters, they HAVE to pay you more. Some of these teachers were taking in $70,000 a year. Some are worth it, some are NOT! So now all the young teachers are getting their masters first (good idea) so the district has to pay them more
:D
And we just try to do what they tell us, right Deb? Until they change their mind and tell us to do something
I am so lucky in my job, I get to teach kids to read. I have a boss that listens to me and helps me. The district sent me to Title One Training. I am pretty "free" to use whatever "tricks" I have up my sleeve, to:
1) get their attention
2) teach them..........
It's a great job, doesn't pay all that much, but if you can keep a secret?
(I would do it for free) :D I get paid in hugs the kids give me when I walk across campus.........it's awesome!

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 06:18 PM
There are very strict rules on what the state standards are, and what is required of the teachers. Mrs. HH has taught at 5 different schools, (4 public, 1 private), and the private school was the only one that didn't care about the state standards.
Of those 4 schools that adhered to the state standards, no principal ever showed special treatment to any teacher. They couldn't...the school's funding is dependant on test scores. If they let a teacher slide...they are risking their own job.
There is no "secret handshake" club. If a teacher is falling behind (like Mrs. HH's current partner), then she gets put on probation, and fired.
Mrs. HH has been in the field a lot more than I so I'm sure she knows better than I. I'm just stating that it is possible for certain preferred teachers to be "warned" when they are going to have a "surprise" inspection or observation so they are more prepared than another not warned. This would be even more likely in a better performing school where the principal is not as worried about test scores. If you still disagree, I'm sorry. I could be wrong, but I know that teacher's lounge politics exist and the kiss a$$es are more likely to be taken care of.

Kilrtoy
01-10-2005, 06:20 PM
MERIT is the biggest joke there is.

Debbolas
01-10-2005, 06:21 PM
Mrs. HH has been in the field a lot more than I so I'm sure she knows better than I. I'm just stating that it is possible for certain preferred teachers to be "warned" when they are going to have a "surprise" inspection or observation so they are more prepared than another not warned. This would be even more likely in a better performing school where the principal is not as worried about test scores. If you still disagree, I'm sorry. I could be wrong, but I know that teacher's lounge politics exist and the kiss a$$es are more likely to be taken care of.
You said it sister!! :rollside:

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 06:23 PM
I. I'm just stating that it is possible for certain preferred teachers to be "warned" when they are going to have a "surprise" inspection or observation so they are more prepared than another not warned.
Then shouldn't the principal be fired? :confused:

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 06:23 PM
Maybe we should start another thread about the CalPers retirement change, while we're at it, that way the LE can get involved in the action. :rollside:

msimpson
01-10-2005, 06:31 PM
Oh sure, that will work. Somebody better inform the govenator that WE ALREADY HAVE A SHORTAGE OF TEACHERS. If you are going to take away tenure, you better have a plan in place to attract college students to go into education. That means higher starting salaries and get ready people......HIGHER TAXES! What a bafoon!

mike37
01-10-2005, 06:32 PM
I don't know, we had a few teachers we were PRAYING to retire. They just babysat the kids, they did nothing with them. It was common knowledge that if a child went into that class, they had better learn on their own, because their teacher wasn't going to help them.....
Our district started offering "early retirement" to some teachers, to get some younger (cheaper) blood in there. The thing is, if you get your masters, they HAVE to pay you more. Some of these teachers were taking in $70,000 a year. Some are worth it, some are NOT! So now all the young teachers are getting their masters first (good idea) so the district has to pay them more
:D
I am so lucky in my job, I get to teach kids to read. I have a boss that listens to me and helps me. The district sent me to Title One Training. I am pretty "free" to use whatever "tricks" I have up my sleeve, to:
1) get their attention
2) teach them..........
It's a great job, doesn't pay all that much, but if you can keep a secret?
(I would do it for free) :D I get paid in hugs the kids give me when I walk across campus.........it's awesome!
70K for nine Mont's of work :sqeyes:

mike37
01-10-2005, 06:36 PM
Oh sure, that will work. Somebody better inform the govenator that WE ALREADY HAVE A SHORTAGE OF TEACHERS. If you are going to take away tenure, you better have a plan in place to attract college students to go into education. That means higher starting salaries and get ready people......HIGHER TAXES! What a bafoon!
you're the buffoon if you think some one deserves a job just because they have bin there for a set amount of time
if you're untouchable you get lazy

Kilrtoy
01-10-2005, 06:41 PM
70K for nine Mont's of work :sqeyes:
LESS THAN THAT, I figure six to seven months
Dont hate other groups because there retirement is ALOT better than yours.
Oh and I did watch the State of the State and he did shit can COPS/PERS....

Raisin Wake
01-10-2005, 06:42 PM
When we stop trying to put 100% of the students into four year colleges and focus on vocational education as well as scholastics, we will be more successful.
My 02.
That's the smartest thing I've heard in this thread yet...
I think you should test the teachers. The ones that don't pass get the boot. the test should have to do with setting up lesson plans as well as knowledge of certain criteria. I'm not a teacher but I'm sure there is a way to determine if a teacher is worthless.
That already happens. Teaching Credentials are the result.
Some interesting reading. These are the standards that all teachers must meet.
http://www.sfsu.edu/~seconded/castandards1.html

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 06:47 PM
LESS THAN THAT, I figure six to seven months
Dont hate other groups because there retirement is ALOT better than yours.
Oh and I did watch the State of the State and he did shit can COPS/PERS....
I was talking to a guy yesterday who was so pi$$ed off about the retirement that his LE uncle was getting. I tried to explain to him that state employees don't put into social security and that we put into CalPers, and we are just getting back our retirement. There was no making him understand. He was just a hater. :D
Afterward, I realized I should told him that if he risked his life daily on his job, perhaps he would get backc 92% of is salary for retirement also. Damm! missed moment!

SHAKEN Not Stirred
01-10-2005, 06:49 PM
That's why I send both my kid's to private school......
I sure could use the extra $$ each month......for a bigger boat..... :)
But I see the benifits every day...... :rollside:
Private school's don't need to put up with sub-standard teachers..... :skull:
CJG
:cool:

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 06:51 PM
One more thing. It takes a lot of years and education to get 70K a year. You have to be a PhD. Shouldn't PhD's make that? If I went to school for 8-9 years full time and had 15-20 years experience, I hope I would make 70K.

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 06:51 PM
you're the buffoon if you think some one deserves a job just because they have bin there for a set amount of time
if you're untouchable you get lazy
A "buffoon"? :confused:
Teachers get fired like everyone else.
My point is not that teacher's shouldn't be held accountable...I just think that the state is not looking inward first. It is sad, but kids do go through the system without getting an education.
For example...how can you teach a kid that only speaks Chinese, and stares at you blankly everyday? How do you hold a teacher acccountable for that student?

mike37
01-10-2005, 06:55 PM
LESS THAN THAT, I figure six to seven months
Dont hate other groups because there retirement is ALOT better than yours.
Oh and I did watch the State of the State and he did shit can COPS/PERS....
I have no problem with any one getting paid well for doing a good job
but there are some out there that have jobs just because they have a degree
you know the one I'm taking about
they are the ones you wouldn't let walk your dog but they have a Job there not qualified to do not mater what the degree says that some school or college gave them

THOR
01-10-2005, 06:56 PM
One more thing. It takes a lot of years and education to get 70K a year. You have to be a PhD. Shouldn't PhD's make that? If I went to school for 8-9 years full time and had 15-20 years experience, I hope I would make 70K.
Speaking from experience, not all PhD's make 70k per year. Univ professors make way less than that when they start and few schools offer merit pay. Only about 3-4 raises over the entire tenure. That is why college education is suffering as well. I opted not to teach at a University and when into the private sector.

Kilrtoy
01-10-2005, 06:58 PM
A "buffoon"? :confused:
Teachers get fired like everyone else.
My point is not that teacher's shouldn't be held accountable...I just think that the state is not looking inward first. It is sad, but kids do go through the system without getting an education.
For example...how can you teach a kid that only speaks Chinese, and stares at you blankly everyday? How do you hold a teacher acccountable for that student?
HH what district is this in that teachers get fired. I am really curious about this one.....

SHOTKALLIN
01-10-2005, 06:59 PM
Test the teachers?
Already done. Teachers get evaluated on a regular basis. The principal sits in on the lessons, and judges them based on the state standards.
They are also given "surprise inspections" to check their lesson plans, etc.
I think you guys are on the right track with a parents resposibility. Mrs HH and I were just talking about this the other day...how sad it was that she has had students that are homeless (most lived in a car), and the parents told her that they would never be able to do homework.
The politians are looking in the easiest place, but the wrong place.
If this is already done then maybe the penalties are not strict enough. the bad teachers must be getting a slap on the wrist if there are already checks and no balances.

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 07:00 PM
HH what district is this in that teachers get fired. I am really curious about this one.....
The Kilrisajackhole District.
That's the same place that fires cops for sitting around on the internet...

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 07:02 PM
The Kilrisajackhole District.
That's the same place that fires cops for sitting around on the internet...
Now that's funny!

Kilrtoy
01-10-2005, 07:02 PM
Kilrisajackhole
Im reporting this to a Moderator

mike37
01-10-2005, 07:05 PM
A "buffoon"? :confused:
Teachers get fired like everyone else.
My point is not that teacher's shouldn't be held accountable...I just think that the state is not looking inward first. It is sad, but kids do go through the system without getting an education.
For example...how can you teach a kid that only speaks Chinese, and stares at you blankly everyday? How do you hold a teacher acccountable for that student?
HH I was replying to this
Originally Posted by msimpson
Oh sure, that will work. Somebody better inform the govenator that WE ALREADY HAVE A SHORTAGE OF TEACHERS. If you are going to take away tenure, you better have a plan in place to attract college students to go into education. That means higher starting salaries and get ready people......HIGHER TAXES! What a bafoon!
I know that any one can get the boot but after you get this tenure the slackers start to fly under the radar

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 07:12 PM
Im reporting this to a Moderator
Let me know when you find one, cuz I got some reporting to do, too...
...ya buffoon.
:D

SHAKEN Not Stirred
01-10-2005, 07:16 PM
One more thing. It takes a lot of years and education to get 70K a year. You have to be a PhD. Shouldn't PhD's make that? If I went to school for 8-9 years full time and had 15-20 years experience, I hope I would make 70K.
Well.....Just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you can teach and if you suck at teaching, you shouldn't even make $70K.....you should be fired.....But it's almost impossible to get them fired.
Going to school for 8-9 years and working 15-20 years doesn't prove anything.......Results are what count........
I know plenty of people who are degreed and have worked in the same profession for many years......and they get paid very well......
Some are incompetent and should be fired......But the system protect's them...
My .02....
CJG
:rolleyes:

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-10-2005, 07:21 PM
You're right that if you can't teach (some can't, no matter how much knowledge they have), you shouldn't get that much pay. I agree. I just didn't want people to get the misconception that a lot of teachers make that kind of money, a few do, most don't.

mike37
01-10-2005, 07:24 PM
Well.....Just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you can teach and if you suck at teaching, you shouldn't even make $70K.....you should be fired.....But it's almost impossible to get them fired.
Going to school for 8-9 years and working 15-20 years doesn't prove anything.......Results are what count........
I know plenty of people who are degreed and have worked in the same profession for many years......and they get paid very well......
Some are incompetent and should be fired......But the system protect's them...
My .02....
CJG
:rolleyes:
that what I wanted to say but I suck at making a point
I had some bad teachers

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 07:34 PM
You're right that if you can't teach (some can't, no matter how much knowledge they have), you shouldn't get that much pay. I agree. I just didn't want people to get the misconception that a lot of teachers make that kind of money, a few do, most don't.
Money? :idea:
Hahahahahaha.....hahahahahahahah....hahahahahaha.. ...hahahahahahahah....Hahahahahaha.....hahahahahah ahah....hahahahahaha.....hahahahahahahah....Hahaha hahaha.....hahahahahahahah....hahahahahaha.....hah ahahahahahah....hahahahahaha.....hahahahahahahah.. ..
Degree, Credential, CLAD, CBEST, BCLAD, and almost a masters. Mrs. HH started out at around $32K per year, and doesn't make alot more than that now.
She got into it because she wanted to "influence young minds". The only mind she's influenced so far is mine (in that she's grossly underpaid for how much education she has).

Debbolas
01-10-2005, 07:37 PM
That's why I send both my kid's to private school......
I sure could use the extra $$ each month......for a bigger boat..... :)
But I see the benifits every day...... :rollside:
Private school's don't need to put up with sub-standard teachers..... :skull:
CJG
:cool:
And the funny thing is...........I could go teach at a private school right now.
Just because you pay for your kids education doesn't mean it is better.
And the $70,000 a year teacher had been teaching for 35 years...she retired and I believe she receives 2/3rds of her salary while retired, but that comes out of a fund, not the district.
Yeah, I know teachers only work 9 months out of the year and get all kinds of days off, but show me the person that goes into teaching to make money..........They don't exist, you go into teaching because you LOVE to teach or you have "fallen back" on teaching because you didn't make it in your chosen field.
I know there are good teachers and bad teachers ( good cop/bad cop :D )
But it's like I tell my kids. You can learn just as much from a bad teacher as a good one. If she is mean, you can learn to get along with people that are difficult. (everyone does that today in their life) If she is lazy, your mom gets to suppliment your education with tutoring and stuff... :D (I've done this)
School is more than just education. It's learning to get in line for lunch and return your library books and enter the talent show. It's trying to ignore the boy next to you picking his nose, and the friend, best friend thing.
I worry about the kids that are home schooled. They are all safe in this protective environment. I don't believe they have any grasp of the real world. They go from their home to.........College? Can they interact with other people without their "mommies?" I don't doubt the mothers ability to educate her kids, it the social aspect that upsets me.

Kilrtoy
01-10-2005, 07:38 PM
She got into it because she wanted to "influence young minds". The only mind she's influenced so far is mine (in that she's grossly underpaid for how much education she has).
Please tell me she doesnt have your thought process.....
We are all DOOMED

Kilrtoy
01-10-2005, 07:41 PM
Yeah, I know teachers only work 9 months out of the year and get all kinds of days off, but show me the person that goes into teaching to make money..........They don't exist, you go into teaching because you LOVE to teach or you have "fallen back" on teaching because you didn't make it in your chosen field.
They work alot less than that and they can make alot of money if they teach year round 12 months, Kind of like the rest of the working population.
I thought teachers taught because they couldnt make it in the real world :D

THOR
01-10-2005, 07:42 PM
The university ranks are extremely corrupt too. I wasnt offered a job at a major university (not to be named here) because I was young. I had my PhD and had the best evaluations among assistant professors in the department, but because I was 30 years old,,,,,, adios. Come back later. I make twice the money now doing forensics. :cool:

Debbolas
01-10-2005, 07:44 PM
[QUOTE=Debbolas]
Yeah, I know teachers only work 9 months out of the year and get all kinds of days off, but show me the person that goes into teaching to make money..........They don't exist, you go into teaching because you LOVE to teach or you have "fallen back" on teaching because you didn't make it in your chosen field.
[QUOTE]
They work alot less than that and they can make alot of money if they teach year round 12 months, Kind of like the rest of the working population.
I thought teachers taught because they couldnt make it in the real world :D
Sweetie, I KNOW you are messing with me....... :rolleyes: ........They can't teach year round? Year Round School just means a different calendar year. July to March or something like that............Unless they switch districts and schools?
They should just get their masters, pick up the extra $ for GATE or PALS, and work at the same district for 35 years.
How are your LONG WEEKENDS going? :rollside:

Havasu Hangin'
01-10-2005, 07:45 PM
I thought teachers taught because they couldnt make it in the real world :D
No...that's the traffic cops.
The "real world" to them is Krispy Kreme and a greasy radar gun.
:D

Kilrtoy
01-10-2005, 07:46 PM
Sweetie, I KNOW you are messing with me....... :rolleyes: ........They can't teach year round? Year Round School just means a different calendar year. July to March or something like that............Unless they switch districts and schools?
They should just get their masters, pick up the extra $ for GATE or PALS, and work at the same district for 35 years.
How are your LONG WEEKENDS going? :rollside:
Deb your killing me, that is no fun, my LOOOONG weekends are great as usual... :D

Debbolas
01-10-2005, 07:48 PM
The university ranks are extremely corrupt too. I wasnt offered a job at a major university (not to be named here) because I was young. I had my PhD and had the best evaluations among assistant professors in the department, but because I was 30 years old,,,,,, adios. Come back later. I make twice the money now doing forensics. :cool:
It's all about who you know and who's butt you kiss at the elementary level as well. :idea: Volunteer a little, get a part time job, kiss some butts, and you are a "shoe in" (what a strange term) for any open teaching job the school.

fujimo
01-10-2005, 08:14 PM
Hi. I don't post much in here. I tend to think the schools spend to much on management and they don't seem to want to teach the basic stuff in the early years. I aiso thiunk the parents need to heip the schools get control back by teaching their kids some respect. When I was in school I new if the school called my dad was gonna believe them unless I proved them wrong. Merit sounds good on paper but I don't see how it's gonna work fairly. Roy

SHAKEN Not Stirred
01-10-2005, 11:03 PM
And the funny thing is...........I could go teach at a private school right now.
Just because you pay for your kids education doesn't mean it is better.
And the $70,000 a year teacher had been teaching for 35 years...she retired and I believe she receives 2/3rds of her salary while retired, but that comes out of a fund, not the district.
Yeah, I know teachers only work 9 months out of the year and get all kinds of days off, but show me the person that goes into teaching to make money..........They don't exist, you go into teaching because you LOVE to teach or you have "fallen back" on teaching because you didn't make it in your chosen field.
I know there are good teachers and bad teachers ( good cop/bad cop :D )
But it's like I tell my kids. You can learn just as much from a bad teacher as a good one. If she is mean, you can learn to get along with people that are difficult. (everyone does that today in their life) If she is lazy, your mom gets to suppliment your education with tutoring and stuff... :D (I've done this)
School is more than just education. It's learning to get in line for lunch and return your library books and enter the talent show. It's trying to ignore the boy next to you picking his nose, and the friend, best friend thing.
I worry about the kids that are home schooled. They are all safe in this protective environment. I don't believe they have any grasp of the real world. They go from their home to.........College? Can they interact with other people without their "mommies?" I don't doubt the mothers ability to educate her kids, it the social aspect that upsets me.
Well....
I disagree.....First of all, I pay more attention as it's costing me a good sum of money each month. Not to say that I wouldn't pay any attention if my kid's went to public school, it's that I SEE the invoice each month. :frown:
Next, I am capable of measuring my kid's success, either by observing, comparing to friends kid's who attend public school, or by seeing published statistics. :idea:
Next, I have a say so in the matter.....I can talk with or call the teacher at any time, they send home detailed reports for the week that I review and comment back to the teacher. If they want my hard earned money, then they better perform...It's called good old fashioned capitalism....and it works. :rollside:
Next, the school does not have to cater to everyone. If you don't test well, then you don't get in. No programs for the handicapped. It's a business and there is a long line to get in. If my kid's don't perform, then their out....That simple. :cry:
Finally, I'm not saying that all public school's are bad, but not many parents pay enough attention to their kid's education and the public school teachers, principals and administrators get away with too much shit.....None of them are not required to interact with me on the same level as the private school. Do your job and perform or a bunch of pissed-off parents will get you ass thrown out on the street.......Try and do the same at a public school....We'd just get sued by the ACLU or something. :rolleyes:
Anyway....Parents....Get involved and speak-up...Take an interest.....Make some noise now & then. I'm not going to leave it up to a teacher to advise my kid of what the real world is....I'll do that myself thank you.....Teach them how to learn, not how to live. The world is too full of Berkley bullshit all ready. :p
Wow....is it that late.....I gotta go....Gotta wake up early to pay for these kids...... :cool:
Hee-Hee !!
Later,
CJG
:cool:

Scape Goat
01-11-2005, 01:53 AM
My wife teaches I have done it . Problem is to many kids to try to make them learn what the system now expects. And most parents in so call can't even help because of the language barrier, the other major group complains that teachers give to much homework and later wonder why the kids do poorly.
Furthermore, how can you base it on grades etc. when each students learning capabilities are different at different times. Plus all the medicines kids are on and the so called disease they have now.
I believe that the should get quarterly inspection or reviews done just like the health dept. or corpate offices does, show up any time and observe and review the the class for the day and the lesson plans and student progress.

THOR
01-11-2005, 06:42 AM
Private schools are no better. Math, chemistry, english, etc are all the same. Child and parent motivation are what it boils down to. Paying a $hitload of money doesnt mean a damn thing.

spectratoad
01-11-2005, 06:43 AM
My point is how can the state dictate pay-for-performance when they don't currently even dictate how much teachers are paid?
The distrct interviews, hires, pays, and fires teachers. The district is a contractor for the state, and turns out a product based on the requirements of the state.
That would be like the US government telling Boeing how much to pay it's employees on a government contract.
If the scores suck...maybe the state should change it's parameters required for students to pass to the next grade. As it sits now, they don't even require the student to speak English. I have seen kids passed to the next grade who spoke only Chinese, Romanian, etc.
Once again, the politians are looking in the wrong direction...
Actually the government does tell employers what to pay, at least in construction projects. There is a certain wage for each specialty that will get a certain wage for federal projects. I just am aware of the construction side.

Havasu Hangin'
01-11-2005, 07:26 AM
Actually the government does tell employers what to pay, at least in construction projects. There is a certain wage for each specialty that will get a certain wage for federal projects. I just am aware of the construction side.
WOW...I didn't know.
So I guess you have three minutes to dig a ditch. If you do it in four, then I assume you get a 33% reduction on your contracted salary rate for that ditch? :supp:
Man...who knew?

spectratoad
01-11-2005, 07:49 AM
No they just have a certain wage that is supposed to be given for federal jobs. I think it is the Davis-Bacon Act. And yes Federal jobs pay more than if you were working a regular job.
Say paving a private road would pay 18$ per hour, well if it is a Federal Highway or road that same work pays 25$ per hour per Federal guidlines.

Wicky
01-11-2005, 07:53 AM
MERIT is the biggest joke there is.
Tell that to a decorated general...
Tell that to Peyton Manning...
Tell that to anyone who has worked hard running their OWN business.
Those who don't believe in merit are the underachievers of the world in most cases.
I guess we know where you stand Kilr!!!!lmao bwahahahahahaha!!

Kilrtoy
01-11-2005, 07:56 AM
Tell that to a decorated general...
Tell that to Peyton Manning...
Tell that to anyone who has worked hard running their OWN business.
Those who don't believe in merit are the underachievers of the world in most cases.
I guess we know where you stand Kilr!!!!lmao bwahahahahahaha!!
Come on we are talking about TEACHERS, not real people who work for a living
Lets get back on the subject.
And who the hell is peyton manning?

Wicky
01-11-2005, 08:03 AM
My 6 year old started Kindergarten this year.
He was causing problems in class and we were notified.
Well, guess what.
We took him to a psychiatrist and had him tested and evaluated.
He then took the scholastic tests the PUBLIC schools had to offer.
He achieved perfect scores.
He is reading on nearly a fourth grade level and doing 2nd grade math.
The GATE program doesn't start until 3rd grade much to our dismay.
Because of the slow, underprivelaged, short bus, crack baby, schoolmates, my boy has to be slowed down which is the biggest criminal act I can think of.
Phuck anything that isn't based on merit. Period!@!!!!!
Any words of wisdom here Kilr???
Wicky

Kilrtoy
01-11-2005, 08:06 AM
If your child is that gifted then you should place them into an envirnmoent where he can flourish.
Now Wicky, not even my wife can twist and turn my words as crazy as you, ARE YOU A WOMAN

Wicky
01-11-2005, 08:09 AM
How can anyone deny this???

Havasu_Dreamin
01-11-2005, 08:09 AM
I see multiple problems with the current educational system. The biggest problem I see is corruption/mis-management at the District level. School districts are too top heavy with administrators. The money needs to go where it counts the most, in the classroom! When was the last time you heard someone say they sent their kids to school A becasue they had good administrators? Sure, good Administrators should translate into a good district with good teachers. But there is the other problem. No matter how good the administrators are, or are not, the teachers that are tenured and just babysit the kids are of no use. Get rid of them. The teachers that just do it becasue they didn't make it in another career are of no benefit either. the best teachers, I think, are like Mrs. HH who wants to "influence young minds" The teacher who wants to make it easier for a child to read or write, those are the teachers that we need more of. not the ones that couldn't even hang in business school in college!

Wicky
01-11-2005, 08:10 AM
If your child is that gifted then you should place them into an envirnmoent where he can flourish.
Now Wicky, not even my wife can twist and turn my words as crazy as you, ARE YOU A WOMAN
If there was a voucher system I would. Until then, I'm just trying to keep up with the taxman.

Kilrtoy
01-11-2005, 08:12 AM
HD, Sounds like your wife works for LAUSD

spectratoad
01-11-2005, 08:15 AM
My kids go to private school. A voucher system would be awesome. They are in 5th & 7th grades. I really like the private system because they teach the subjects not the watered down PC stuff and they wear uniforms so I don't have to keep up with the latest fashions all the time.
I look at my property tax bill and about half ($700) goes directly to schools. Then I look at my vehicle registration fees, near a 1/4 of each vehicle goes to the schools. How much longer do we throw money at a broken system. I do believe we should start the overhaul with the administrators. :D

Havasu_Dreamin
01-11-2005, 08:18 AM
HD, Sounds like your wife works for LAUSD
Nope, I aint married. Just my own experience from the school district I went thru, and did well I might add, in the San Gabriel Valley. now, I've got friends that teach in the district we all went to school in and the stories they tell me just make me cringe.
I brought this subject up since it was raining, it's a valid issue for all of us since we pay taxes to the system, and in an effort to keep the cabin fever down a bit. Although, I think this may have sparked the cabin fever as opposed to lowering it. LMAO

Wicky
01-11-2005, 08:19 AM
Obviously, there is a problem with just about every orginization that is built from a tax base. Not that problems don't occur in the private sector but, those problems usually get weeded out (no pun intended).
Seemingly, the problems in the public sector just seem to snowball and yes, it starts with administration. When you have an open checkbook ie: taxation,
accountability goes down the tubes.
Mow,
Wicky

THOR
01-11-2005, 08:21 AM
"tenure" is a very old term that originated at the university level and was granted to professors that had established themselves. What tenure did was give professors "academic freedom" to pursue research that may have been controversial at the time. Back then, you couldnt go out of your departmental agenda. But with tenure, you could push the envelope.
Now tenure means you are assured to have a job no matter what you do.

spectratoad
01-11-2005, 08:35 AM
Our local school district just said they are going to ask that the State waive the mandatory amount of days that the kids have to go to school. there has so far been 5 days missed due to snow. They don't want to make it up at the end of the year. There are three contingency days they said so it is really two days they are talking about. WTF????

MOBrien
01-11-2005, 08:38 AM
I look at my property tax bill and about half ($700) goes directly to schools. Then I look at my vehicle registration fees, near a 1/4 of each vehicle goes to the schools. How much longer do we throw money at a broken system. I do believe we should start the overhaul with the administrators. :D
What kills me is that if we are throwing so much f-ing money at the system, which I agree with you is broken in many areas, why the hell is my wife still so damn underpaid? She works her ass off, takes full responsibility, accountability, and ownership in her career and her students, is often working late at night correcting assignments and developing lesson plans, and has to deal with parents that have the attitude that their kids' sh*t don't stink.
I'm all for the merit system as long as salaries are adjusted accordingly to reward the ass-kicking teachers like my wife that deserve to be in a six figure bracket for their efforts in developing OUR future generations. It's so retarded that a tenured, 20+ year career teacher makes just over 70K. Yep, the system is broken.

spectratoad
01-11-2005, 10:02 AM
Like I said, our district just hired a new top guy. 3 year conrtact @ $170K per year. WTF is that all about.
I am all for the kick a$$ teachers. They deserve the pay but at the same time the wages are known before the job is pursued and taken. I am not baggin' on anyone with that comment it is just the way it is.
I know a few teachers and I have thought about going and getting my certificate to teach but I just couldn't deal with the prick parents. I would end up getting fired anyway.

totenhosen
01-11-2005, 10:24 AM
I know some of you are teachers in here that seem to be underpaid. I've got two friends both who teach 1st grade in the public system and do not teach summer school. Both are below 30 years of age and have their Masters. Both started out making $55k right out of college. I think in comparision to police officers (in particular) this is alot of money.

HEDJUG
01-11-2005, 11:04 AM
My wife is a teacher over here on the East Coast, she has 2 masters & was lucky to start @ 30K. They don't make squat compaired to other professions. We have a few areas around that get 55-60k, but they have 10 year waiting lists & you need to know/do someone to get a job.
As for the merit based increases, it would be O.K. if it was based off of the avg. I.Q. of the class. She has to teach the same stuff to the entire class regardless of their abilities. Some years, the kids are a bit slower than others, that is not a good way to judge the instructor.

Havasu_Dreamin
01-11-2005, 11:06 AM
I know some of you are teachers in here that seem to be underpaid. I've got two friends both who teach 1st grade in the public system and do not teach summer school. Both are below 30 years of age and have their Masters. Both started out making $55k right out of college. I think in comparision to police officers (in particular) this is alot of money.
DAMN! That some serious do-re-mi right out of college for a 9 month gig.

SHAKEN Not Stirred
01-11-2005, 11:30 AM
Private schools are no better. Math, chemistry, english, etc are all the same. Child and parent motivation are what it boils down to. Paying a $hitload of money doesnt mean a damn thing.
Well......
You're only partailly wrong.....
You get what you pay for !!!!...That's how everything works....
The curriculum may be the same, but the enviroment is what makes the difference. You and I happen to live in the same area and I believe that the public school system is good, but many other areas are "War Zones". Kid's can't learn & thrive in a war zone. The private school system is not designed for shit-bag parents with shit-bag kids, as they can be kicked out !!!
CJG

Ron Hill
01-11-2005, 12:36 PM
I started in 1966 and retired last year. The SYSTEM is BROKEN. I will say, I loved every minute of my teacher years.
In California's K-12, we are spending close to $7,500 a year per student.
Public Schools treat everyone like they were equal.....Well, that is "BEAUTIFUL" and so is Bunny, Duckie and Kitty. In fact, some kids have IQ's of 150, others have IQ's of 67...these differences must be addressed, not acting as if they don't exsist.
I have placed students in "Gifted Programs" after being in this country less than two months....I even had them tested in English. I Placed, FIVE (5) level One ESL (English as a Second Language) students into Gifted Programs their first year here...
My last year of teaching, I was given the bottom of the bottom, (I had tenure, but they wanted me out)...I placed 11 7th graders in Special Education... How did they get to 7th grade??? without being tested. Administrateor don't want the extra EFFORT and EXPENSE of Special Ed Kids. So, they tell the younger teachers, it is their problem...Handle it.
Where do so many Special Education kids come from??? Drug use of parents, women having five babies in 4 years, alcohol abuse...stupid parents.
All students should be given an IQ test, their expectations should be based on IQ. When you have 140 kids in 7th grade, with their mother's average age of 28...no dads in the house, you can't expect these "Entitlement Kids" to achieve with Newport Beach kids... (Right now the state gives one size fits all tests)...
Being an Arizona "GOLDWATER" Conservative, I was never very popular with LIBERAL "PUKE" educators....I'm still not. Saying that, my students scores were always so high, that they'd like to have called me a cheater, but they knew better. But, the district went out of their way to never "COMPARE" teachers....(They migh have found that some of US expected respect, expected hard work, and demanded achievement or else...Or else they could come after school for TUTORING...or else, their teacher would be at their house wanting to know WHY Johnny is giving the teacher a bad time and failing tests.... Does he need a Special Class??? Or does he need to get on the ball and WORK...I learned this stuff...why can't they???
I once taught 37 sixth graders, and the teacher next door had 17....6th graders...All the parents wanted their kids in my class....(And I took them)..That group of 6th graders had 17 boys who had been retained in 3rd grade.... A policy, we use to use. We had standards, and if they could not pass, they were given the "Gift of Time" and held in 3rd grade twice... If you did that now, all would repeat third grade. The standards are so low, well, I won't go there...
Oh, the sixth grade class was the year after I had Nicole Simpson Brown in my PE class. She was in the "GIFTED PROGRAM"...which now days is a title, rather than a class.... These, 37 sixth graders, still keep in touch with me (Some)...They went on to be Student Body President, Senior Class President, Secretary of ASB, Homecoming King and Queen, Athlete of the Year...in their Senior year...They were taught how to!!!! (Be a winner, by a National and World Champion Boat Racer, who happened to teach school and they knew I loved it).
A good teacher is not easy to find. In those Elementary days, I ran Intramurals at lunch, rather than eat...I gave old boat race trophies to the winners... I ran School Wide Olympics...
What should be done:
1. Year around school: Kids go 12 months like working people...
2. Pass grades by progress on tests based on IQ expectances, not by age.
3. All should have Vouchers of $7,500 per year...
4. All teacher Credentials should be dropped... It is now harder to pass the credential tests, than graduate college...
5.
Well, actually, vouchers would fix all...
I'll end where I started...THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN...
ADD: Could I run a school of thirty kids on $225,000 per year???
Let's see:
1. Rent $24,000 a years....
2. Toilet Paper $84 a year...
3. Phone: $2,400 a year...
4. $200,000 for me the Owner of this business...
Now, the problem...Maybe, 30 wouldn't want to come in to my school and sit on folding chairs in a warehouse in Santa Ana...
But see, people buy props from me, if they like them...Not because the GOVERNMENT likes them.
LAST ADD:
Things go along like this, then they get worse!!!
Last, last add: The school system need s PROPOSITION 13...Jarvis where are you???
Merit pay won't work...without a revamping of spending...I'd say, most districts (K-12) are VERY top heavy...(They have Administrator making $90,000 for ten months, then extend that for two more summer months...)
Two year colleges should be closed.... There transfer rates are now under 10%.... I THINK. With, University of Phoenix, National University and a half million other private colleges, JC's are just burning money...One district has 300 million for construction money.....for who to go to class???

Tremor Therapy
01-11-2005, 12:50 PM
You want to fix it.....it is a much greater problem than the school systems!
My son goes to an elementary school that is about 95% of what everyone universally terms the bottom. I would say the teacher has to spend at least 50% of her day doing the lessons in Spanish, and the other 1/2 in English. How does that benefit my child? It doesn't! Because 50% of my sons time to LEARN is being wasted because THE EXACT SAME LESSON IS HAVING TO BE TAUGHT TWICE!
Now, you can debate it all you want, but I see my sons teacher work her ass off! Pay based on merit? This lady should make double of what she currently makes, but unfortunately even if you paid her based on her efforts, the bulk of the class is focking FAILING 2ND GRADE!

Wicky
01-11-2005, 01:07 PM
Well....
I disagree.....First of all, I pay more attention as it's costing me a good sum of money each month. Not to say that I wouldn't pay any attention if my kid's went to public school, it's that I SEE the invoice each month. :frown:
Next, I am capable of measuring my kid's success, either by observing, comparing to friends kid's who attend public school, or by seeing published statistics. :idea:
Next, I have a say so in the matter.....I can talk with or call the teacher at any time, they send home detailed reports for the week that I review and comment back to the teacher. If they want my hard earned money, then they better perform...It's called good old fashioned capitalism....and it works. :rollside:
Next, the school does not have to cater to everyone. If you don't test well, then you don't get in. No programs for the handicapped. It's a business and there is a long line to get in. If my kid's don't perform, then their out....That simple. :cry:
Finally, I'm not saying that all public school's are bad, but not many parents pay enough attention to their kid's education and the public school teachers, principals and administrators get away with too much shit.....None of them are not required to interact with me on the same level as the private school. Do your job and perform or a bunch of pissed-off parents will get you ass thrown out on the street.......Try and do the same at a public school....We'd just get sued by the ACLU or something. :rolleyes:
Anyway....Parents....Get involved and speak-up...Take an interest.....Make some noise now & then. I'm not going to leave it up to a teacher to advise my kid of what the real world is....I'll do that myself thank you.....Teach them how to learn, not how to live. The world is too full of Berkley bullshit all ready. :p
Wow....is it that late.....I gotta go....Gotta wake up early to pay for these kids...... :cool:
Hee-Hee !!
Later,
CJG
:cool:
Shaken,
I'm buying you a beer or two!! Kudos to you. You said it just like it is right down to the Berkley quirk.
Thank you,
Wicky

totenhosen
01-11-2005, 01:14 PM
You want to fix it.....it is a much greater problem than the school systems!
My son goes to an elementary school that is about 95% of what everyone universally terms the bottom. I would say the teacher has to spend at least 50% of her day doing the lessons in Spanish, and the other 1/2 in English. How does that benefit my child? It doesn't! Because 50% of my sons time to LEARN is being wasted because THE EXACT SAME LESSON IS HAVING TO BE TAUGHT TWICE!
Why would you keep your kid in a school like that?

Wicky
01-11-2005, 01:19 PM
Private schools are no better. Math, chemistry, english, etc are all the same. Child and parent motivation are what it boils down to. Paying a $hitload of money doesnt mean a damn thing.
Just curious...did you attend a private school as a child??
I did. I went to Webb High School. Then I went to a public college. Talk about digression. I learned more my freshman year in HS than all the years in college.
Wicky

Wicky
01-11-2005, 01:30 PM
I started in 1966 and retired last year. The SYSTEM is BROKEN. I will say, I loved every minute of my teacher years.
In California's K-12, we are spending close to $7,500 a year per student.
Public Schools treat everyone like they were equal.....Well, that is "BEAUTIFUL" and so is Bunny, Duckie and Kitty. In fact, some kids have IQ's of 150, others have IQ's of 67...these differences must be addressed, not acting as if they don't exsist.
I have placed students in "Gifted Programs" after being in this country less than two months....I even had them tested in English. I Placed, FIVE (5) level One ESL (English as a Second Language) students into Gifted Programs their first year here...
My last year of teaching, I was given the bottom of the bottom, (I had tenure, but they wanted me out)...I placed 11 7th graders in Special Education... How did they get to 7th grade??? without being tested. Administrateor don't want the extra EFFORT and EXPENSE of Special Ed Kids. So, they tell the younger teachers, it is their problem...Handle it.
Where do so many Special Education kids come from??? Drug use of parents, women having five babies in 4 years, alcohol abuse...stupid parents.
All students should be given an IQ test, their expectations should be based on IQ. When you have 140 kids in 7th grade, with their mother's average age of 28...no dads in the house, you can't expect these "Entitlement Kids" to achieve with Newport Beach kids... (Right now the state gives one size fits all tests)...
Being an Arizona "GOLDWATER" Conservative, I was never very popular with LIBERAL "PUKE" educators....I'm still not. Saying that, my students scores were always so high, that they'd like to have called me a cheater, but they knew better. But, the district went out of their way to never "COMPARE" teachers....(They migh have found that some of US expected respect, expected hard work, and demanded achievement or else...Or else they could come after school for TUTORING...or else, their teacher would be at their house wanting to know WHY Johnny is giving the teacher a bad time and failing tests.... Does he need a Special Class??? Or does he need to get on the ball and WORK...I learned this stuff...why can't they???
I once taught 37 sixth graders, and the teacher next door had 17....6th graders...All the parents wanted their kids in my class....(And I took them)..That group of 6th graders had 17 boys who had been retained in 3rd grade.... A policy, we use to use. We had standards, and if they could not pass, they were given the "Gift of Time" and held in 3rd grade twice... If you did that now, all would repeat third grade. The standards are so low, well, I won't go there...
Oh, the sixth grade class was the year after I had Nicole Simpson Brown in my PE class. She was in the "GIFTED PROGRAM"...which now days is a title, rather than a class.... These, 37 sixth graders, still keep in touch with me (Some)...They went on to be Student Body President, Senior Class President, Secretary of ASB, Homecoming King and Queen, Athlete of the Year...in their Senior year...The were taught how to!!!! (Be a winner, by a National and World Champion Boat Racer, who happened to teach school).
A good teacher is not easy to find. In those Elementary days, I ran Intramurals at lunch, rather than eat...I gave old boat race trophies to the winners... I ran School Wide Olympics...
What should be done:
1. Year around school: Kids go 12 months like working people...
2. Pass grades by progress on tests based on IQ expectances, not by age.
3. All should have Vouchers of $7,500 per year...
4. All teacher Credentials should be dropped... It is now harder to by the credential tests, that graduate college...
5.
Well, actually, vouchers would fix all...
I'll end where I started...THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN...
ADD: Could I run a school of thirty kids on $225,000 per year???
Let's see:
1. Rent $24,000 a years....
2. Toilet Paper $84 a year...
3. Phone: $2,400 a year...
4. $200,000 for me the Owner of this business...
Now, the propble...Maybe, 30 wouldn't want to come in to my school and sit on folding chairs in a warehouse in Santa Ana...
But see, people buy props from me, if they like them...Not because the GOVERNMENT likes them.
LAST ADD:
Things go along like this, then they get worse!!!
Last, last add: The school system need s PROPOSITION 13...JArvis where are you???
Merit pay won't work...without a revamping of spending...I'd say, most districts (K-12) are VERY top heavy...(They have Administrator making $90,000 for ten months, then extend that for two more summer months...)
Two year colleges should be closed.... There transfer rates are now under 10%.... I THINK. With, University of Phoenix, National University and a half million other private colleges, JC's are just burning money...One district has 300 million for construction money.....for who to go to class???
Not sure if you drink beer Ron but, I'd like to buy you a beer anyway.
I'm running one of your props on my Allison btw. I'm definitely going to buy more props from you in the future now that I know your point of view.
Wicky

Havasu Hangin'
01-11-2005, 01:42 PM
Wicky- Ruby Ridge called...they said get off the internet, grab your weapons, take your Prozac, and come back home.

Tremor Therapy
01-11-2005, 02:15 PM
Why would you keep your kid in a school like that?
My wife and I have tried like hell to get both of my kids out of that school, but because "the district is over crowded" they are not allowing any intra-district transfers. Oh, unless you work for the school district or you are one of the unemployed socially handicapped ethnic groups.....then you can hang around the school offices all day instead of work, and they will eventually grant your transfer. All the while busing your kid to the other school for free, and feeding them free breakfast and lunch!
Believe me, it has pissed my wife and I off to no end! We actually tried one of the many "ways" you can to dupe the system, and the school district called us on it, and found out we didn't live within the boundaries of the school we had our kids registered at. And the focking school district pulled our kids out of the school and told us that if we tried that again, we would have to go on a waiting list to get our kids into the school!
WTF? A tax paying citizen having to get on a waiting list to get their kids in school?
My wife and I are going to let this school year run its course, because at this time, we are researching all of the private schools. Hell, eventhough we live in a great neighborhood with great friends, we are thinking of moving to get away from this school district....thats how pissed off we are!
And for the record, the first thing I do every night when I get home is go over all of the school work, and home work that my kids had for that day! The schools can't guarantee an education, but I sure as hell can guarantee to be active in their education and insure that they will learn the subject matter they bring home.

Wicky
01-11-2005, 02:22 PM
Wicky- Ruby Ridge called...they said get off the internet, grab your weapons, take your Proxac, and come back home.
HH,
Thanks for the reminder. Oh yes, don't forget your medication either.
Here ya go.
Sorry I'm so conservative in your opinion but, just think if I were a liberal!!!!
Wicky
P.S. Glad to see you caught your spelling error ;)

totenhosen
01-11-2005, 02:29 PM
And for the record, the first thing I do every night when I get home is go over all of the school work, and home work that my kids had for that day! The schools can't guarantee an education, but I sure as hell can guarantee to be active in their education and insure that they will learn the subject matter they bring home.
Thanks for the clarification! Spending that time and being active in your kids education is probably more important and better than what 90% of today's kids get.

Havasu Hangin'
01-11-2005, 02:34 PM
HH,
Thanks for the reminder. Oh yes, don't forget your medication either.
Here ya go.
Sorry I'm so conservative in your opinion but, just think if I were a liberal!!!!
Wicky
Sorry...I meant "Sushi Ridge"...
:notam:

THOR
01-11-2005, 03:50 PM
Just curious...did you attend a private school as a child??
I did. I went to Webb High School. Then I went to a public college. Talk about digression. I learned more my freshman year in HS than all the years in college.
Wicky
Wicky,
Nope. Not a chance. I did learn a damn thing in the public systems. Hell, to this day I only have a PhD. I guess they system failed me too. But, I went to school in socal, not Idaho.

My Man's Sportin' Wood
01-11-2005, 04:59 PM
Mr. Hill, thanks for the inspiration.
p.s. I had an awesome day as a "visiting teacher" today. I got to teach 4 classes of US History and 1 world history class. That just happens to be my subject. :cool:

Wicky
01-11-2005, 05:27 PM
Wicky,
Nope. Not a chance. I did learn a damn thing in the public systems. Hell, to this day I only have a PhD. I guess they system failed me too. But, I went to school in socal, not Idaho.
Good for you!! Way to go!!! Congratulations Thor. I couldn't put my hands together any louder for ya. A PhD. Wow!!!
So, out of curiousity, what difference is there between Socal schools and Idaho schools Mr. PhD??
Please share, inquiring minds want to know.
Wicky

THOR
01-11-2005, 06:17 PM
Good for you!! Way to go!!! Congratulations Thor. I couldn't put my hands together any louder for ya. A PhD. Wow!!!
So, out of curiousity, what difference is there between Socal schools and Idaho schools Mr. PhD??
Please share, inquiring minds want to know.
Wicky
You seem to think the schools here dont teach you a thing if they are public. I was saying the best must be in Idaho according to your tone. BTW, it isnt Mr. PhD, it is Doctor. :cool:

msimpson
01-11-2005, 07:09 PM
Oh, and by the way. We haven't even began to talk about this worthless piece of crap!

Debbolas
01-11-2005, 07:47 PM
I know some of you are teachers in here that seem to be underpaid. I've got two friends both who teach 1st grade in the public system and do not teach summer school. Both are below 30 years of age and have their Masters. Both started out making $55k right out of college. I think in comparision to police officers (in particular) this is alot of money.
It really depends on the district.
When I was looking at teaching about 7 years ago....Fontana Unified School District started their (non-master) teachers out at $24,000 a year.
I don't get paid much to do what I do now, but I can teach my students and SEE they are learning. It's awesome. It's not easy, but I wouldn't want to do anything else.
The thing about teaching is.........it's frustrating as hell, I mean the parents, the kids that don't pay attention, the other teachers........but once in a while you can see a "spark" of learning go off in a student. Suddenly they are excited about learning what you are teaching. That is addictive, there is nothing else like it. Give me the kid that hates school. They are the challenges that I love! :D

H20Advantage
01-11-2005, 07:52 PM
Ok, so by now, most of us in California have heard that the Governator wants to change the way teachers are paid and basically do away with tenure. Arnie is proposing that teachers be paid based on their performance, that is, like it is in the private sector. I continully receive low marks in my job, my a$$ is out the door looking for a new job, not so in the current system. One would think that if this were to go into effect, those teachers that slack off because they have tenure would either, no longer receive raises or quite possibly lose their jobs. Your thoughts?
Hi Scott,
Mrs. H20Advantage here.
First, I miss seeing you guys. Can't wait til Spring hits and we're back on the water.
This is my first time to get on the boards. I HAD to get into this thread. As you know I left corporate marketing (management) after 20 years from shear burn-out following the high-tech stock market roller coaster. I went back to college to pursue the career I wanted when I was 25. When I was 25 I allowed myself to be talked out of teaching by well meaning friends and family. Many of them said, "You'll never make any money." etc, etc. Well, I made EXCELLENT money in corporate America in salary and stock options. No regrets there.
Now, by pure choice, I am teaching 3rd grade Special Education at an OC public school. I love my job. I have never worked in a union position previously. I have never, even now, had the "it's not in my contract" attitude. I will say that there are many positive changes that could be made in education. I will also say that the majority of problems do NOT lay at the feet of the teachers. ALL the teachers I have met in my 2 years of teaching work very hard. Many of our boating friends have seen me on the boat grading papers, and/or writing lesson plans while many around us are partying and having a blast. No complaint - I do it by choice, because I feel responsible for "my kids". Many people, who are not self-employed, get to go home and forget their job. Teachers do not.
Merit based pay for teachers is a farce. That would mean that the principal's favorite teachers get the raises, and the others do not. I happen to have a great relationship with my principal. I have been paid based on merit for more than 20 years. Merit based pay doesn't scare me. However, there are MANY teachers that are excellent educators and do not have a great relationship with their principal. As others on this tread have said - How do you measure merit? Test scores? I don't think that's working. Report card grades? We all know the problem there.
I do not have enough experience to tell you what the problem is exactly. I will say that the students that do the best are ALWAYS the ones who have parents that hold them (the student) accountable, assist them with homework, make their education a priority, and encourage and love their children unconditionally. A few of the other students do well in spite of their parents. Teachers can only do so much. Some students have greater capacity to learn than others.
Are their bad teachers out there? Absolutely! I had a couple when I was a kid. Is merit based pay going to fix education and the budget crisis? Absolutely not! I had been very happy with Arnold, and am now thinking otherwise of him. I hope we don't make this mistake.
Well... there's my 2 cents... ok a lot more than 2 cents...
:wink: Thanks for listen'in :cool:

Debbolas
01-11-2005, 07:59 PM
Well....
I disagree.....First of all, I pay more attention as it's costing me a good sum of money each month. Not to say that I wouldn't pay any attention if my kid's went to public school, it's that I SEE the invoice each month. :frown:
Next, I am capable of measuring my kid's success, either by observing, comparing to friends kid's who attend public school, or by seeing published statistics. :idea:
Next, I have a say so in the matter.....I can talk with or call the teacher at any time, they send home detailed reports for the week that I review and comment back to the teacher. If they want my hard earned money, then they better perform...It's called good old fashioned capitalism....and it works. :rollside:
Next, the school does not have to cater to everyone. If you don't test well, then you don't get in. No programs for the handicapped. It's a business and there is a long line to get in. If my kid's don't perform, then their out....That simple. :cry:
Finally, I'm not saying that all public school's are bad, but not many parents pay enough attention to their kid's education and the public school teachers, principals and administrators get away with too much shit.....None of them are not required to interact with me on the same level as the private school. Do your job and perform or a bunch of pissed-off parents will get you ass thrown out on the street.......Try and do the same at a public school....We'd just get sued by the ACLU or something. :rolleyes:
Anyway....Parents....Get involved and speak-up...Take an interest.....Make some noise now & then. I'm not going to leave it up to a teacher to advise my kid of what the real world is....I'll do that myself thank you.....Teach them how to learn, not how to live. The world is too full of Berkley bullshit all ready. :p
Wow....is it that late.....I gotta go....Gotta wake up early to pay for these kids...... :cool:
Hee-Hee !!
Later,
CJG
:cool:
Sorry, I can't really see a difference between your private school and my public one. Our school:
1) Parents can call the teacher
2) Become involved in their childrens education
3) Our parents get a "detailed report" it's called a Report Card
I guess you can say the public schools cater to every child.....it's called teaching children. We can't leave anyone out. We have special day classes, Gate, Pals, English as a Second Language and my favorite Title One!! :D
The only differnce I can see is that you pay a monthly statement for your childrens education. There isn't anything wrong with that. Given the right circumstances, I might do that too. One of the reasons we moved into our area is our school district is really good. We have a variety of children in our district. Kids from million dollar homes and kids from the HUD apartments.
Just don't trash a system you don't know about. I know our current school system has flaws, but we are trying to fix them.
And PLEASE don't drag out the sterotypes of Bad Teachers, there are people like that in every field.
Don't make me tell BAD parent stories..... :D

H20Advantage
01-11-2005, 08:01 PM
My wife and I have tried like hell to get both of my kids out of that school, but because "the district is over crowded" they are not allowing any intra-district transfers. Oh, unless you work for the school district or you are one of the unemployed socially handicapped ethnic groups.....then you can hang around the school offices all day instead of work, and they will eventually grant your transfer. All the while busing your kid to the other school for free, and feeding them free breakfast and lunch!
Believe me, it has pissed my wife and I off to no end! We actually tried one of the many "ways" you can to dupe the system, and the school district called us on it, and found out we didn't live within the boundaries of the school we had our kids registered at. And the focking school district pulled our kids out of the school and told us that if we tried that again, we would have to go on a waiting list to get our kids into the school!
WTF? A tax paying citizen having to get on a waiting list to get their kids in school?
My wife and I are going to let this school year run its course, because at this time, we are researching all of the private schools. Hell, eventhough we live in a great neighborhood with great friends, we are thinking of moving to get away from this school district....thats how pissed off we are!
And for the record, the first thing I do every night when I get home is go over all of the school work, and home work that my kids had for that day! The schools can't guarantee an education, but I sure as hell can guarantee to be active in their education and insure that they will learn the subject matter they bring home.
Hi Tremor,
Mrs. H20Advantage here. I'm a school teacher and I feel your frustration. Your comments are just one indicator that there are some major problems with public education that go much higher up the ladder than even the teacher can phathom.
I just wonder, whatever happened to just waking up in the morning and going to school to learn (or in my case, to teach)?
Go figure... all this peripheral crap. Grandpa would roll over in his grave.
Diane

H20Advantage
01-11-2005, 08:18 PM
Well......
You're only partailly wrong.....
You get what you pay for !!!!...That's how everything works....
The curriculum may be the same, but the enviroment is what makes the difference. You and I happen to live in the same area and I believe that the public school system is good, but many other areas are "War Zones". Kid's can't learn & thrive in a war zone. The private school system is not designed for shit-bag parents with shit-bag kids, as they can be kicked out !!!
CJG
Hi Shaken.
Sorry, but I gotta go with Thor's comment. I worked at a private school last year - a good one. You won't believe the hidden agendas and things teachers are told they MUST teach... social issues included.
The curriculum is the same... sorry to say. I went to private school part of my growing up years and public school part of those years. I had friends at both, good teachers and bad teachers at both.
If it's important to you for your children to go to private school, then good for you and your kids. Just don't get a skewed view of public school educated children. They're pretty awesome too.
Thanks for listen'in. :notam:
Mrs. H20Advantage

TheEduKATor
01-11-2005, 08:33 PM
Ms.EduKATor and I are both teachers in Ca. I've had my Master's for 2 years and have been teaching for 6 years in the same district and make nowhere near $55K a year. My Mastere's degree earned me 2k more a year which comes out to $90 dollars more each paycheck. It took me 4 years of college to get a B.A. in Education, then another year to earn my credential and 2 years to get my Master's degree in education. I don't know about you, but 7 years of college is a lot of work for something that is not a "real job". Ms.EduKATor is working on her Master's to help out with the bills but also tutors inner city students for free and teaches Sunday school for free because she loves what she does and she is damn good at it.
Our first year teaching, we both started off at $34K on a 10 month contract in a low income area. The only difference between the teachers at that school and the local law enforcement is we weren't issued guns or bulletproof vest. We had race riots pretty frequently, not one on one fights. Drugs deals going down every passing period. Students beating up substitute teachers and regular teachers. The parents were no help and were often the source of the problem. Like the brawl between parents at our graduation ceremony. In addition there were 20 languages spoken at the school, I knew two. The no child left behind act means that special needs students are no longer taught in seperate classes they are included into the mainstream classes. The good teachers go to training every year to learn new techniques on differentiated instructions to cater to all the needs but sometimes you get autistic students who can't read, write, or talk and just because the law says they have to be in the class doesn't mean the general education students accept them.
Then you still have to figure out how to reach the Somalian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Cambodian, Sudanese, etc that only speak their native language. We had classrooms built for 25 but I never had less than 40 students in my classes and had 49 my first year teaching. Other times you get students with severe emotional and behavior disorders who bring guns or other weapons to school because they can. One of my students was a senior who was mad at his g/f after a break up, brought a gun to kill her, popped off a few shots across campus but didn't hit her, then turned it on himself in the head. My vehicles were broken into and vandalized for my first 4 years of teaching. We had no less than 3 campus lock downs a month and were dismissed by swat teams each time with guns in hand. Ms.EduKATor's purse was stolen by her 4th grade student. Trust me, some teachers bust their asses off for their paychecks. We are all for the merit system or whatever system because good teachers will still be good teachers and do it because they care, and in san diego there will still be at least two underpaid good teachers regardless of the system.

Kilrtoy
01-11-2005, 08:42 PM
WOW, EDUKATOR, you need to move to L.A.
A starting teacher in LAUSD gets 36K and 5 K for hazard pay (working in the ghetto). Someone with your tenure and degree is up close to 65K. Your should really consider that. I knew SD paid less but damn, That is alot......

TheEduKATor
01-11-2005, 09:05 PM
Kilrtoy,
When we first applied right out of the credential program there was a shortage of teaching positions state wide. I applied to at least 6 districts and only got one call from the district I'm at now. I was pretty lucky, Ms.EduKATor wasn't so lucky, she didn't get a position until mid year. The teacher before her walked out of the class, told the kids she was going to the restroom and never came back. It was a 4th grade class of students.

Sir Psycho Sexy
01-11-2005, 09:30 PM
Kilrtoy,
When we first applied right out of the credential program there was a shortage of teaching positions state wide. I applied to at least 6 districts and only got one call from the district I'm at now. I was pretty lucky, Ms.EduKATor wasn't so lucky, she didn't get a position until mid year. The teacher before her walked out of the class, told the kids she was going to the restroom and never came back. It was a 4th grade class of students.
It's situations like these that eat my ass. My son is in the fifth grade, and out of all the teachers he's had, 90% are terrible. You can tell the ones that actualy wanted to teach our children, and the ones that just needed A "JOB"!!! It's one thing to be A slacker in A job that doesn't impact A childs life, BUT it's A completely different story when you decide to step into the role of teacher, counsler, principal, etc.......Also if you Don't truly love children, and Don't want to spend eight hours A day with them, DON"T BECOME A TEACHER!!!
The woman that walked out of class should be barred from ever setting foot in another classroom!!!...............This is only A small portion of what I have to say on this subject, but I'll save my rants for another time.

Havasu Hangin'
01-11-2005, 09:36 PM
It's situations like these that eat my ass. My son is in the fifth grade, and out of all the teachers he's had, 90% are terrible. You can tell the ones that actualy wanted to teach our children, and the ones that just needed A "JOB"!!! It's one thing to be A slacker in A job that doesn't impact A childs life, BUT it's A completely different story when you decide to step into the role of teacher, counsler, principal, etc.......Also if you Don't truly love children, and Don't want to spend eight hours A day with them, DON"T BECOME A TEACHER!!!
The woman that walked out of class should be barred from ever setting foot in another classroom!!!...............This is only A small portion of what I have to say on this subject, but I'll save my rants for another time.
Every parent thinks two things:
1. Their kid is a perfect angel
2. The teacher sucks
(even the parents that don't speak English are onboard with that)

Debbolas
01-11-2005, 09:39 PM
Let's tell "bad" parent stories............... :idea:

Havasu Hangin'
01-11-2005, 09:40 PM
Let's tell "bad" parent stories............... :idea:
I got a few.
Actually, more than a few, and I'm not even a teacher... :notam:

Mrs. H20Advantage
01-11-2005, 09:42 PM
OK Deb,
You start... I'll follow on...

Debbolas
01-11-2005, 10:01 PM
We have a parent, single, living in the apartments on goverment aid.
Her son is actually quite bright, but never has ANY structure in his life.
He takes medicine ( I don't know what for). His mother informed us she was taking him off his meds. Of course he couldn't concentrate in class. Total impulse control problems...Can't focus......a very challenging student to teach. Mom doesn't show up for parent conferences. This child, I have seen him out late at night (10pm) at this computer game room, playing...........He is so sleepy the next day, not to mention he is unsupervised. He has no limits at home, and thinks he can get out of anything just by being cute.....very sad. I just want to take him home. I know if he was given consistant rules, and his medicine, he would do great.
your turn.............

Mrs. H20Advantage
01-11-2005, 10:24 PM
Ok, but then I have to turn over the laptop to the Mr.
Gosh, which one should I share?? Alright: private school, 3rd grade, female student, 2nd year at this school. 2nd grade teacher talks with dad several times via phone, and in person. Tells dad that there is a problem. His daughter is not learning. She must be tested for learning disabilities. Teacher explains that the testing will either eliminate LD as a problem, or zero in on the problem so the teacher knows how to help the child. Dad thinks teacher is over reacting. (Child has already gone to 1st grade TWICE.)
Child spends the summer in tutoring with me. I speak with dad during the summer about concerns in his daughters learning. He politely brushes it off.
Child is in my 3rd grade class in the Fall. She falls asleep everyday in class, morning and afternoon. When I wake her up she falls right back to sleep. I have to have her stand up so she can stay awake. She tells me she's up with her cousins every night until at least 11. In the first 6 days of school she's tardy 4 times. She needs glasses and cannot see the white board, even though she's on the front row. I speak with dad almost daily - brush off, brush off. Send home hand written notes that his daughter needs his assistance to be successful in school.
Three weeks after school begins I speak with dad again. Again, brush off. 'chuckle, chuckle, kids will be kids, chuckle, chukle.' Four weeks after the start of school I write a letter on school letterhead (with principal's permission).
Writing the issue in a formal letter forced the issue.
The public school district did a full battery of testing. What a shock. Yep, she needs special education. She has a serious processing problem. Really sweet girl with four years of education - completely wasted. She can't even read.
Sad.

Charley
01-11-2005, 11:14 PM
Bottom line for me is simple...and these are my feelings so flame away
The one thing that is missing in Government jobs is accountability
It exists in the private sector a little more, but unfortunately the politically correct mentality, and Liberal fairness to minorities is RUINING this great nation there too. If there is no punishment to the people/teachers who remain stagnant and rest on thier tenure, and if there is no reward to the young lady fresh out of college who's only real desire is to be the best and most attentive teacher she can be to our kids..... well I ask you
"How many Teachers will strive for excellence"
Only a few
pay on merit system would reward the ones I want rewarded
Screw Tenure....Old teachers like everyone else need to be as good or better than thier younger counterparts ... I would think an experienced and a wise teacher would easily be at the top of the heap, assuming thier Heart and thier desire were in check too!
my .02 :rollside:

Kilrtoy
01-11-2005, 11:22 PM
Compare teachers to dentist,
My old dentist is so up to date with the newest stuff, that is why I stay with him..
new dentist may be up to date, but dont know the old tricks, this is where tenure would come into play....
Older teachers have been beaten down , by admin, sen all the changes for the worse and have become jaded, not all , but most

Charley
01-11-2005, 11:24 PM
Older teachers have been beaten down , by admin, sen all the changes for the worse and have become jaded, not all , but most
The F-ing Fire EM!

Kilrtoy
01-11-2005, 11:29 PM
The F-ing Fire EM!
I agree, but in gov it is not that easy

Charley
01-11-2005, 11:30 PM
I agree, but in gov it is not that easy
THATS EXACTLY ARNYs POINT and
HE's RIGHT!

Kilrtoy
01-11-2005, 11:50 PM
The only problem if you fire them all
WHO IS GONNA REPLACE THEM, it isnt like teachers are beating on doors to get in

Havasu Hangin'
01-12-2005, 05:05 AM
pay on merit system would reward the ones I want rewarded
Charley...as usual, it appears you didn't do your homework. This is very typical from a parent who always blames teachers...
How do implement a merit system when the students are not willing (or able) to learn? For example, how does a teacher educate a student that does not speak English? Do you know Chinese?
Teachers are not government employees- they are hired by the districts. Education reform needs to start at home, which is political suicide.
Please read the entire thread, so on your next post, you don't look like an idiot. :hammerhea

Charley
01-12-2005, 06:07 AM
Charley...as usual, it appears you didn't do your homework. This is very typical from a parent who always blames teachers...
Gimme a break you self absorbed POS.... you know nothing about me, nor do you know how I parent my kids. If you can extract that from my post(s) and the 10 minutes we have spent on the beach your a failure @ mind reading because I know you don't have anywhere near enough info to have an opinion about me, or the manner in which I parent... more likely your just a totally poor choice to moderate any forum.. learn some manners :burningm:
How do implement a merit system when the students are not willing (or able) to learn? For example, how does a teacher educate a student that does not speak English? Do you know Chinese
I didn't and won't profess an answer ... My opinion is based simply on the original post that started this thread... here
Ok, so by now, most of us in California have heard that the Governator wants to change the way teachers are paid and basically do away with tenure. Arnie is proposing that teachers be paid based on their performance, that is, like it is in the private sector. I continully receive low marks in my job, my a$$ is out the door looking for a new job, not so in the current system. One would think that if this were to go into effect, those teachers that slack off because they have tenure would either, no longer receive raises or quite possibly lose their jobs. Your thoughts?
I shared my thoughts and my reply was based on the fact that IMHO the system is the problem.....Arny seems to think so too.. the government, and some of it's current policies (in my eyes) is the problem... This society, including this situation needs a huge dose of accountability.. that was my LONE point ..... I dont give a shit about Tenure .... I think pay/bonus based on performance.
is that simple enough for ya??

checkrocket
01-12-2005, 06:45 AM
Sounds like this is a controversial topic in California. I live in New York State. This topic is often debated. My wife and I are both teachers. We started out as Engineers for Lockheed Martin. We took a 162,000 pay cut combined since we both have are Professional Engineering License. We have now taught for 5 years and we are only making 40,000 each. We both have masters plus 20 hours. I make the same as the gym teachers. We teach college level engineering at a high school. Students can earn 14 college credits by the time they graduate high school in our engineering program. It is a public high school with more then 2000 students. I think the pay should be increased, I do allot of work. I think I am making a difference in kid’s lives. My students are going on to big name universities and learning. I just think the public schools need a reform. But if you start firing teachers, there won't be any to fill the jobs, especially with starting salaries in the high 20s, low 30s. Just my 2 cents. Of course boating is still the best with no work

Havasu Hangin'
01-12-2005, 07:05 AM
Gimme a break you self absorbed POS....??
I did...it could have been worse. :notam:
"Self-absorbed" piece of shit? That's new...
...and these are my feelings so flame away
Charley...having a merit system is good in theory, but not reality. That's like saying that you get a contract to light your favorite Kenny G concert...
...but you only have 10 flashlights and 4 "D" batteries to do it. And, if everyone isn't happy, you get paid less.

rodnjen
01-12-2005, 07:14 AM
:devil: I haven't read all the posts but my thoughts are that it is too subjective and would create superficial teaching programs designed to save their asses. It would also make it too easy for parents to shift the responsibility from themselves to the our schools. We are right to want more for our kids, but we have to take responsibility for their desire to learn.
There are a few bad apples, but there are many that work their asses off and spend their own money for the benefit of the kids. I guess what I'm saying is that we need to move away from "blame" and more toward "responsibility."

Wicky
01-12-2005, 08:07 AM
You seem to think the schools here dont teach you a thing if they are public. I was saying the best must be in Idaho according to your tone. BTW, it isnt Mr. PhD, it is Doctor. :cool:
Nope. Not a chance. I did learn a damn thing in the public systems. Hell, to this day I only have a PhD. I guess they system failed me too. But, I went to school in socal, not Idaho.:
Well Mr PhD,
I guess you learned to speculate without evidence even with your doctorate. I went to 11 years of public school in SoCal not Idaho. I speak from personal experience not out of my ass. You completely bit the hook. I learned plenty in public schools but, nothing in comparison to private schools all in SoCal (Claremont-one of the higher testing districts in SoCal). Many have had GREAT educations in public schools on this board. Times have changed though. The system is BROKEN period. I can't believe you don't see that but, then again, you have a PhD.
Where is this going Doc? And I do use the term loosely only because I believe a PhD means you liked to study a lot. Yes, you're booksmart. Where is your practice Mr. PhD or are you like most PhD's and just like to bench race?
Mow,
Wicky

Havasu_Dreamin
01-12-2005, 08:10 AM
Good to see you on the boards Diane.
I'm acutally glad I brought this subject up to spark some debate. There have been some good comments and some really useless ones. I don't know how I really feel about the issue of merit pay for teachers. All I know is that based on test scoring, the public schools in CA are failing and something needs to be done. Personally, I think their is plenty of blame to pass around.
I have a few friends that are teachers, in addition to the friends from Hot Boat that are teachers, and they all love their job and are glad that they make a difference, or at least try to, in a childs life. But unfortunately, as with every profession, yes being a teacher is a profession, you have bad apples and they are the ones that casue the problems. Unattentive/dis-interested parents are part of the problem as well. How can any parent not want to take an interest in the education of their child??? I also question the spending priorities of school districts. I base this solely on the one district I have knowledge about but they seem to be way top heavy in staff.

THOR
01-12-2005, 08:27 AM
Well Mr PhD,
I guess you learned to speculate without evidence even with your doctorate. I went to 11 years of public school in SoCal not Idaho. I speak from personal experience not out of my ass. You completely bit the hook. I learned plenty in public schools but, nothing in comparison to private schools all in SoCal (Claremont-one of the higher testing districts in SoCal). Many have had GREAT educations in public schools on this board. Times have changed though. The system is BROKEN.
Where is this going Doc? And I do use the term loosely only because I believe a PhD means you liked to study a lot. Yes, you're booksmart. Where is your practice Mr. PhD or are you like most PhD's and just like to bench race?
Mow,
Wicky
Public schools didnt keep your attention long enough from the direction of your posts. Speculate and infer are two different things. Go get a dictionary in town today and look those up.
Learn a little about a subject before you run your pie hole. A PhD is a doctorate given to individuals who have demonstrated their knowledge in a certain area and can prove they can perform RESEARCH on their own. It has nothing to do with studying. Actually, I didnt study very much. That is the first area you are wrong (among others that I will let go for now).
Second, where do I practice? Are you really that dumb? Did you listen in school? PhD's dont have a practice. I am not an M.D., I am a PhD. That means I perform research and publish papers. That is right. Publish scientific research in journals that are refereed. That means that a panel of other DOCTORS read my papers and decide whether it should be published or not. They say yes too. Imagine that. Ole Thor actually dessiminating information to the masses in the science community.
Bench race? Yeh, that is me. You are really the only I got into it with here, because the others had some basis for their opinions. I guess I do bench race a tad about education cuz I think I have had a tad more experience than you. Still call that bench racing since I have experience in an area? Isnt bench racing for guys that really cant do what they say they can and just talk about it? Kind of like you huh Wicky?
What experience do you have in education? Ever taught at the university level? Where? What classes? How were your evaluations? BTW, teaching Cletus how to make a buckskin hat in the shed isnt teaching.

Charley
01-12-2005, 08:57 AM
Charley...having a merit system is good in theory, but not reality. That's like saying that you get a contract to light your favorite Kenny G concert...
...but you only have 10 flashlights and 4 "D" batteries to do it. And, if everyone isn't happy, you get paid less.
Well that is the difference in my world ..... I don't rely on tenure, or a guarantee or a law that protects me if I F-UP... I have to perform based on the very explicit and predefined details of a contract .... If Kenny G got 10 flashlights for his show then Kenny G's management would have agreed to 10 flashlights for his show. If I didn't perform I wouldn't get paid, and i wouldn't expect to hear from the client again ..... It's what makes capitalism great ... all the built incentives!
call it a degree of accountability

Wicky
01-12-2005, 08:59 AM
Public schools didnt keep your attention long enough from the direction of your posts. Speculate and infer are two different things. Go get a dictionary in town today and look those up.
Yes, you inferred from what I said but, you speculated where I went to school.
Learn a little about a subject before you run your pie hole. A PhD is a doctorate given to individuals who have demonstrated their knowledge in a certain area and can prove they can perform RESEARCH on their own. It has nothing to do with studying. Actually, I didnt study very much. That is the first area you are wrong (among others that I will let go for now).
Hmmmmm. Research...Study...big difference there. You can do better than that can't ya?
Second, where do I practice? Are you really that dumb? Did you listen in school? PhD's dont have a practice. I am not an M.D., I am a PhD. That means I perform research and publish papers. That is right. Publish scientific research in journals that are refereed. That means that a panel of other DOCTORS read my papers and decide whether it should be published or not. They say yes too. Imagine that. Ole Thor actually dessiminating information to the masses in the science community.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have conluded you had your PhD in Psych. That was an assumption. Why? I don't know. I was not thinking just spewing. That was all I was reffering to. So, what do you have your PhD in? History? Education? Neuroscience? Please do tell.
Bench race? Yeh, that is me. You are really the only I got into it with here, because the others had some basis for their opinions. I guess I do bench race a tad about education cuz I think I have had a tad more experience than you. Still call that bench racing since I have experience in an area? Isnt bench racing for guys that really cant do what they say they can and just talk about it? Kind of like you huh Wicky?
So this means your PhD is in Education then correct? Yet, you don't see a problem with the public education system which is what this whole entire post has basically been about. What's up Doc?
What experience do you have in education? Ever taught at the university level? Where? What classes? How were your evaluations? BTW, teaching Cletus how to make a buckskin hat in the shed isnt teaching.
Actually, I have been offered a job at Boise State University and it wasn't underwater basket weaving. It was teaching HACCP. I'm not a teacher. To much hard work for me. I choose the private sector to make more money of course.
Mow,
Wicky

THOR
01-12-2005, 09:02 AM
Actually, I have been offered a job at Boise State University and it wasn't underwater basket weaving. It was teaching HACCP. I'm not a teacher. To much hard work for me. I choose the private sector to make more money of course.
Mow,
Wicky
Good choice. The $$$ was my reason too.
HACCP? what is that exactly?

Wicky
01-12-2005, 09:05 AM
Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point. Originally used in the Space program for food safety.
Now, it is used in the seafood industry.

Wicky
01-12-2005, 09:07 AM
I was edumacated by the FDA and NOAA on this subject.

Charley
01-12-2005, 09:13 AM
I have had issues with my boy Tyler's grades when he was in 7th and 8th grade ..... he and I were lucky enough to have a Teacher who cared alot! He and I traded emails and phone calls throughout the year and established a way to cure the problem. This teacher REALLY cared, and I REALLY appreciated his extra effort, and involvement in my childs education.
For the record.... I want Good teachers to be paid alot more! It is a highly underpayed, and publicly undervalued profession. I would just like to see those who do care, do work thier asses off, do try to make a difference rewarded. I also want to see tenure play a very MINOR roll in job security. Once again I dont have the answer on how that can be accomplished, it is merely my opinion on a philosyphy I think is missing in our current system.

Ron Hill
01-12-2005, 02:31 PM
I give you all credit...you're thinking and talking....but no one is FORMING A PLAN, but me!!!
Quick Joke.... for Thor... when I was younger, at 6'5" tall and 235 pounds...some called me THOR... One time a young lady asked why they called me THOR.... I started to say because I was big, strong and smart....handsome... but then said, "When I was younger I was riding my bike down the street yelling I'm Thor, I'm Thor.. And the neighbor kid yelled back, now wonder you'r Thor (Sore) your theat's (Seat) on backwards...
Not sure if that is how you got your name Thor...but
Anyway, as a retired teacher, I do pride myself in knowing that more than 50 of my old students are teachers...including two of my three children and the third is still in high school...a great school called Newport Harbort High...he plays Water Polo and we don't own a horse... My daughter is 31 and has taught for 10 years..I worked with several of these 50, in my 38 years... They always seemed to enjoy working with me. As I said, good teachers are hard to find...
But, we need to FOCUS on how to:
A. Save money or at least not continue to have expenses sprial out of control
B. Do a better job
Privatatize custodial, painting, gardening and teacher salaries...if you don't want vouchers... vote the unions out with a statewide Prop 13 ballot issue.
My last year of teaching, three painters painted on the school for ten months and never finished the job...I would guess that they each made $4,000 a month (at least with bennies) times three, times ten...$120,000 to paint one school!!!! (And it wasn't done when I left)...I would have done the job for half (My dad was a painting contractor) and still made 20 grand.
Seems to me a Voucher could be used in two directions... Kids that a school doesn't like...could be handed their VOUCHER back and told to HIT the HIGHWAY.
If the public school was doing a great job, the vouchers would come in anyway....if they stunk up the place...they could close the school, sell the land, (Get it on tax rolls) and be done with trying to teach..
If "CHURCH
schools took a voucher, they would no longer be "NON PROFIT", so they could then start paying property tax on their school. Parents that are now sending their kids to private school could spend their money on more propellers...
Check out my encyclopedia on Boat Racing at www.boatracingfacts.com
ADD:
IQ tests establish your goals...
No one would expect a 15 HP Johnson to go 200 MPH...but twin 1,900 HP Paul Pfaff motors better go near 200 or the owner will be MAD and may take his money somewhere else...
Trust me...I like the idea that my DOCTOR who does surgery on my eyes graduated in the top of his class..I like to shake his hand and realize my hand is twice as big as his danty little Surgeon's hands...
Realistic GOALS....See, my three kids were the smartest kids in the WORLD.....until they started Kindergarten.....

Ron Hill
01-12-2005, 04:13 PM
Allow the parents, teachers, students and administrators to evaluate each teacher (25% each)...for 100 per cent of the evaluation, yearly...
Add or substract 10% of their salary based on the results of this evaluation...

Havasu Hangin'
01-12-2005, 09:01 PM
... I have to perform based on the very explicit and predefined details of a contract ....
Which the teachers are already doing. The state incentifies districts based on test scores of the students. If the school performs...it gets more money.
The teacher has a contract with the district. If they don't perform to expectations...they get fired.

SHAKEN Not Stirred
01-13-2005, 12:20 AM
Sorry, I can't really see a difference between your private school and my public one. Our school:
1) Parents can call the teacher
2) Become involved in their childrens education
3) Our parents get a "detailed report" it's called a Report Card
I guess you can say the public schools cater to every child.....it's called teaching children. We can't leave anyone out. We have special day classes, Gate, Pals, English as a Second Language and my favorite Title One!! :D
The only differnce I can see is that you pay a monthly statement for your childrens education. There isn't anything wrong with that. Given the right circumstances, I might do that too. One of the reasons we moved into our area is our school district is really good. We have a variety of children in our district. Kids from million dollar homes and kids from the HUD apartments.
Just don't trash a system you don't know about. I know our current school system has flaws, but we are trying to fix them.
And PLEASE don't drag out the sterotypes of Bad Teachers, there are people like that in every field.
Don't make me tell BAD parent stories..... :D
OK.........
But I doubt you give detailed info daily or weekly to each parent....The timley info lets my wife and I nip it in the bud right then.....No delay.....
Second, I don't want to cater to each child....I'm only interested in "MY" children.....I don't want to care about "Special Classes"......I don't want to deal with someones "Slow" kid dragging down the rest of the class.......Keep up or ship out......
Life is not fair and screw parity....I need to give my kid's an edge over the rest of the pack.......yes....even in elementary school..... Hell...They were both in preschool the day they were old enough.....
Lastly,.......Sorry....I don't want my kid's mixed in with the gang from the HUD apartments.......I can't see anything good comin' from that !!
Look...I grew up in a blue-collar family in Costa Mesa, good middle class childhood in the OC, nothing fancy....No silver spoon.......I just want better for my kids...
My parents were both immigrants to this country and I just happend to be luckey enough to be born here. They didn't know any other way than to push hard on my education and I didn't understand it at the time......All of my friends parents just didn't care as much......A "C" was OK for them......Not for my old man !!!
I remember telling my dad that you only needed one semester of math to graduate high school......"Not in this house" he said...... I was the only one in my class that had 4 years of math.....
Most of my friends only took "Check Book Math".......That's all that YOUR public high school thought was necessary to graduate.......I thought my dad was such a prick !!.....But a few years later I got it !!!
As they say....."An apple doesn't fall too far from the tree".......
As far as the "System" goes.....Flaw's ??...Yep...It's way too busted to fix......It has to implode first.....If I hear one more teachers union BS commercial about "We need more money" I'm gonna' go postal.....
Bad people....yep again !!....everywhere!!.....some mediocre as well.....But I don't have to stand for it..... Life's WAY too short.....
I'm glad that you have the passion for what you do....I know that I couldn't do it......My hat's off to you.....
Respectfully,
CJG
:wink:

THOR
01-13-2005, 07:17 AM
Quick Joke.... for Thor... when I was younger, at 6'5" tall and 235 pounds...some called me THOR... One time a young lady asked why they called me THOR.... I started to say because I was big, strong and smart....handsome... but then said, "When I was younger I was riding my bike down the street yelling I'm Thor, I'm Thor.. And the neighbor kid yelled back, now wonder you'r Thor (Sore) your theat's (Seat) on backwards...
Not sure if that is how you got your name Thor...but
:D :D :D :D
That is some funny $hit

Raisin Wake
01-13-2005, 07:46 AM
Second, I don't want to cater to each child....I'm only interested in "MY" children.....I don't want to care about "Special Classes"......I don't want to deal with someones "Slow" kid dragging down the rest of the class.......Keep up or ship out......
No disrepect, but, if a teacher only focused on the head of the class, they would be in real trouble. Classes are made up of all level of students. A teachers job is to try and teach all of them. A challenge indeed. Home Schooling is always an option....
My parents were both immigrants to this country and I just happend to be luckey enough to be born here. They didn't know any other way than to push hard on my education and I didn't understand it at the time......All of my friends parents just didn't care as much......A "C" was OK for them......Not for my old man !!!
Parental involvement is the one of the cornerstones to a positive and productive education. Kids look up to there parents. When they notice that their parents care what they do, they will try and to better. If they don't care, then the kids won't care. IMHO

Tremor Therapy
01-13-2005, 08:06 AM
Second, I don't want to cater to each child....I'm only interested in "MY" children.....I don't want to care about "Special Classes"......I don't want to deal with someones "Slow" kid dragging down the rest of the class.......Keep up or ship out......
Life is not fair and screw parity....I need to give my kid's an edge over the rest of the pack.......yes....even in elementary school..... Hell...They were both in preschool the day they were old enough.....
Lastly,.......Sorry....I don't want my kid's mixed in with the gang from the HUD apartments.......I can't see anything good comin' from that !!
Respectfully,
CJG
:wink:
These are the exact things I keep trying to point out to the schools my kids are in. Hey, if my kids are excelling, get them the f*ck out of the ghetto classes, and into classes where they can rise to the top! Don't teach my kids to pass some piece of sh*t test that YOU feel is enough! I want them to excel, and I pay enough in taxes that they should have classes that cater to them!
I mean think about it! The generation of kids that will be running the country when we are in our 60's and 70's won't even be able to spell generation! :sqeyes:

Mrs. H20Advantage
01-13-2005, 08:53 PM
These are the exact things I keep trying to point out to the schools my kids are in. Hey, if my kids are excelling, get them the f*ck out of the ghetto classes, and into classes where they can rise to the top! Don't teach my kids to pass some piece of sh*t test that YOU feel is enough! I want them to excel, and I pay enough in taxes that they should have classes that cater to them!
I mean think about it! The generation of kids that will be running the country when we are in our 60's and 70's won't even be able to spell generation! :sqeyes:
Hey! Shaken! Tremor!
Seems to me you guys need to have coffee and put together your home schooling plan.
Oh, darn! That won't work either because only ONE of your kids can the TOP of your class. Guess the rest will be strawberry pickers.
At least according to YOUR lesson plans.
Respectfully,
DAM
p.s. Yes, I do send home a daily report to every parent.

haulina29
01-13-2005, 08:59 PM
I guess im a teacher also because I spend weeks teaching my new eighteen year old employes how to add subtract and read a tape measure . How can you graduate high school if you cant read a tape measure ?

Mrs. H20Advantage
01-13-2005, 09:05 PM
Good to see you on the boards Diane.
I'm acutally glad I brought this subject up to spark some debate. There have been some good comments and some really useless ones. I don't know how I really feel about the issue of merit pay for teachers. All I know is that based on test scoring, the public schools in CA are failing and something needs to be done. Personally, I think their is plenty of blame to pass around.
I have a few friends that are teachers, in addition to the friends from Hot Boat that are teachers, and they all love their job and are glad that they make a difference, or at least try to, in a childs life. But unfortunately, as with every profession, yes being a teacher is a profession, you have bad apples and they are the ones that casue the problems. Unattentive/dis-interested parents are part of the problem as well. How can any parent not want to take an interest in the education of their child??? I also question the spending priorities of school districts. I base this solely on the one district I have knowledge about but they seem to be way top heavy in staff.
I totally understand what you're saying. I like what Ron Hill said about privatizing at least some jobs within a school district. I heard that Santa Ana Unified has privatized their maintenance jobs. Electrictions, painters, etc. I don't know how it's working for them, but competition is good. I would be ok with merit increases if the rest of this stuff was privatized at the same time. I just know that putting teacher's on merit raises isn't going to change the system.
As for district staff... my district is a big one, and we have a huge administration building filled with staff. :eek:

Mrs. H20Advantage
01-13-2005, 09:07 PM
I guess im a teacher also because I spend weeks teaching my new eighteen year old employes how to add subtract and read a tape measure . How can you graduate high school if you cant read a tape measure ?
Did you ask them? While you're at it ask them where their parents are.

haulina29
01-13-2005, 09:12 PM
Yes I have they said it was more important to learn how we stole California from Mexico and that Christopher Columbus did not discover America . Some where along the line somebody should catch the fact that a student cant add subtract and read a tape . I do agree parents need to be involved but no kid should pass if he is not up to speed on basic skills thats the schools job .

SHAKEN Not Stirred
01-14-2005, 03:51 PM
Hey! Shaken! Tremor!
Seems to me you guys need to have coffee and put together your home schooling plan.
Oh, darn! That won't work either because only ONE of your kids can the TOP of your class. Guess the rest will be strawberry pickers.
At least according to YOUR lesson plans.
Respectfully,
DAM
p.s. Yes, I do send home a daily report to every parent.
LOL......Funny !!!!
Well.....funny thing.......I "DO" home school my kid's every day..........
.......It's called parenting..... :rolleyes:
I don't just crack a beer when I get home in the evenings ya' know !!!! :mix:
I pick-up where the daytime teachers leave off.... :idea:
a little physics, world news (so my kid's don't end up like most uninformed Americans) and a big dose of common sence.....or shall we call it uncommon sence as it is these days.....oh yea....and I'm the head of discipline as well !!! :boxingguy
My job is to augment what the professionals have done......
No lazy, stupid kid's on my watch...... ;)
Hmmmmm......maybe I should open a school.....Naaaaaaaa.....
I'd just get sued for not being politically correct.......
Later,
CJG
:D

totenhosen
01-14-2005, 04:07 PM
LOL......Funny !!!!
Well.....funny thing.......I "DO" home school my kid's every day..........
.......It's called parenting..... :rolleyes:
I don't just crack a beer when I get home in the evenings ya' know !!!! :mix:
I pick-up where the daytime teachers leave off.... :idea:
a little physics, world news (so my kid's don't end up like most uninformed Americans) and a big dose of common sence.....or shall we call it uncommon sence as it is these days.....oh yea....and I'm the head of discipline as well !!! :boxingguy
My job is to augment what the professionals have done......
No lazy, stupid kid's on my watch...... ;)
Hmmmmm......maybe I should open a school.....Naaaaaaaa.....
I'd just get sued for not being politically correct.......
Later,
CJG
:D
Amen! When I have kids that is how I expect to be!

msimpson
01-14-2005, 04:33 PM
As I said in my first post. Hey Mr. Taxpayer, if you want teachers being paid according to merit, get ready to pony up! California currently ranks 48th in the nation in per pupil spending. I'm all for it, I know I'll be in line for a big fat raise! Might even be able to afford a bigger boat! :rollside:

Raisin Wake
01-14-2005, 07:45 PM
LOL......Funny !!!!
Well.....funny thing.......I "DO" home school my kid's every day..........
.......It's called parenting..... :rolleyes:
I don't just crack a beer when I get home in the evenings ya' know !!!! :mix:
I pick-up where the daytime teachers leave off.... :idea:
a little physics, world news (so my kid's don't end up like most uninformed Americans) and a big dose of common sence.....or shall we call it uncommon sence as it is these days.....oh yea....and I'm the head of discipline as well !!! :boxingguy
My job is to augment what the professionals have done......
No lazy, stupid kid's on my watch...... ;)
Hmmmmm......maybe I should open a school.....Naaaaaaaa.....
I'd just get sued for not being politically correct.......
Later,
CJG
:D
That's what good parents do. :) A lot of parents don't see it that way. Those kids are the ones that drag the school system down....