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burtandnancy
01-12-2005, 03:42 PM
Our government just released the figure that we buy 124 Billion dollars worth of Communist Chinese goods. Thats $124,000,000,000. So I started thinking how much of the parts and materials in my boat could come from China. Hopefully not the BBC's, I think they still are US made, as well as my Merc drives. Maybe the electronics in my guages, radio, depth finder, GPS? How about the resin or fiberglass? The steel in my trailer. My tires are definately Japanese. That leave the vinyl and canvass.
Just got me thinking how many of my boat purchase dollars go to a communist country. Does anyone know if country of origin applies to boats?

wsuwrhr
01-12-2005, 03:48 PM
I have, as well have others, have posted threads pertaining to this subject, and it seems to fall largely on deaf ears, maybe even a little hostile ears.
China is a communist government as you stated, why we are trading so much of our resorces I have no idea.
Brian
see sig

wsuwrhr
01-12-2005, 03:54 PM
I just read an article about this very subject.
"Comments reaffirming the "strong dollar" policy this week by U.S Treasury Secretary John Snow were seen by markets as indicating a hands-off approach and failed to strengthen the currency.
On Wednesday, Snow played down the record trade deficit, telling reporters in New York that "the trade gap reflects the fact that Americans are becoming more prosperous.""
"The trade gap reflects the fact that Americans are becoming more prosperous"
WTF?
If you are selling fewer goods, how do you earn enough to buy someone elses? Where is the money comming from?
I don't know the answer, but a trade deficit this huge with a communist country doesn't sit well with me.
Brian

wsuwrhr
01-12-2005, 04:01 PM
In our countries' history, it seems to me that we disregard how our development of "cheap labor" keeps comming back to haunt us.
Everytime we try and get something for nothing it costs us tenfold in the end.
Brian

OutCole'd
01-12-2005, 04:20 PM
Scary subject. It seems like just about everything you buy is made in China. Tough part is sometimes that is all you can get. If you want something for the house, it seems it's made in China, or not made at all. I try to buy USA when I can, I wish there were more products produced here.

shueman
01-12-2005, 05:07 PM
40% of that is Wal-Mart.. :(

mirvin
01-12-2005, 05:17 PM
I'm not sure why people don't seem to care about this issue. Maybe they don't understand how it effects all of us.
Wall Mart/Sams Club bad......... :crossx: Costco good :p
mirvin :wink:

Rexone
01-12-2005, 06:12 PM
Scary subject. It seems like just about everything you buy is made in China. Tough part is sometimes that is all you can get. If you want something for the house, it seems it's made in China, or not made at all. I try to buy USA when I can, I wish there were more products produced here.
Some of that can be explained by the fact that the cheap import product has driven several small US businesses out of business so now that's all thats available. Case in point. Impy's Hot Rod Parts (before we purchased it almost 4 years ago) used to make all kind of street rod billet stuff. Everything from door handles, mirrors, shifter stuff, you name it, probably close to 100 different items in all... He had to stop making all that stuff because it became financially unfeasible to him to sell his stuff up against the cheap Chinese and other imported knock off parts that were being sold here at far less than he could even build parts for here. He was making little if any money making just the steering wheels which is when we bought it from him (for the steering wheels). The billet steering wheels were the one part the importers couldn't knock off with any semblence of quality control to what we build. Basically the import crap drove him out of the street rod parts business. One of probably thousands and thousands of similar stories of very small US businesses forced to quit.
It is not a good trend but our government has encouraged it and allowed it under multiple adminastrations both democrat and republican. It is a sad situation indeed where you "have" to buy an import product simply because no comparable US product is available or is only available at several times the price of an import product which many people just can't afford. You cannot even purchase any automobile I don't imagine that at least some substantial percentage of it's parts have non US origins.
And Brian the above pisses me off too. My points in the past have been that it's just about impossible to buy 100% US no matter how hard you want to or try to, not that I like doing so or have deaf ears when it comes to foriegn stuff.

burtandnancy
01-12-2005, 06:30 PM
I'm aware that many of our automotive accessories/parts/components come from foreign countrys, Canada and Mexico mostly, but its the COMMUNIST Chinese invasion of our country I'm mostly opposed to. Fifty years ago I was trained and paid to kill communists (although I never did see actual combat while in Korea). Yes, after 50 years I can forgive alot, but it just doesn't seem right to me. We can't get COMMUNIST Cuban cigars can we?

Debbolas
01-12-2005, 08:32 PM
If there was a store that sold strictly USA only, I would sooooooooo shop there. :D
Remember when Sam(Walmart) was alive, at first the "big" thing about Walmart was taht everything there was made in the USA.
I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for your burt, to have fought a war against a country we are now buying cheap goods from.... :confused:

Magic34
01-12-2005, 08:44 PM
We studied a lot of this in Social clases in college.
All of the toys and a lot of other products from China use the proceeds to fund the military. They are really trying to become the core noation of the world (superpower) and one day hopegully not in the near future, it will become a major problem for/with the US.

OutCole'd
01-12-2005, 09:05 PM
I have a store here in Vegas that sells interior trim ( mouldings, crown, base, casing, etc.) and also hardwood flooring.
Had a vendor come into the store today, trying to get me to sell his flooring from Korea. All the manufactures I sell now are made here in the states. He tells me its all about the cost & I could make way more selling his product.
I sent him packing.

wsuwrhr
01-12-2005, 09:21 PM
I have a store here in Vegas that sells interior trim ( mouldings, crown, base, casing, etc.) and also hardwood flooring.
Had a vendor come into the store today, trying to get me to sell his flooring from Korea. All the manufactures I sell now are made here in the states. He tells me its all about the cost & I could make way more selling his product.
I sent him packing.
My hero,
Now if more of US would do the same, it would be a little different.
There is now free lunch.
This will bite us in the ass sooner or later.
Brian

wsuwrhr
01-12-2005, 09:29 PM
We studied a lot of this in Social clases in college.
All of the toys and a lot of other products from China use the proceeds to fund the military. They are really trying to become the core noation of the world (superpower) and one day hopegully not in the near future, it will become a major problem for/with the US.
I hope this isn't true, but this is the problem I am worried about.
If China got up an sneezed wrong in the morning, we would have to arm every man, woman, and child in the US, and we still may loose a war based on sheer numbers alone.
Are we trying to give an adversary power?
Aren't we fighting a war for and opressed country right now? Why are we funding another one?
Brian

burtandnancy
01-12-2005, 11:11 PM
Its obvious a lot of us "regular" people feel strongly about this issue, but for some reason the people we elected to office to keep this from happening have more insight and genious that we do. I don't understand...

Rexone
01-13-2005, 12:39 AM
Its obvious a lot of us "regular" people feel strongly about this issue, but for some reason the people we elected to office to keep this from happening have more insight and genious that we do. I don't understand...
Kind of like their illegal alien program. Why are these bastards so weak suck on these issues. (answer = $$$$$)
We should start a poll. Will we be destroyed by illegal aliens (terrorists) or the Red Chinese first or is everything just hunky dory?
I think the politicians have the blinders on. And unfortunately they are made out of $1000 dollar bills and $$ is the only language these idiots understand.

Freak
01-13-2005, 06:18 AM
I
"The trade gap reflects the fact that Americans are becoming more prosperous"
WTF?
If you are selling fewer goods, how do you earn enough to buy someone elses? Where is the money comming from?
I don't know the answer, but a trade deficit this huge with a communist country doesn't sit well with me.
Brian
Panic is not something they want to insight so your gut is telling you correct not what you read. If you feel sick after reading this. Sorry.
The monetary system. It's a interesting thing. Since we no longer produce goods. Real bright idea :messedup: Your money has value because of one thing - oil - and more money is created because of one thing debt.
When OPEC was formed, it was agreed that all oil purchases were to be made in dollars, i.e, the petro dollar. This was when the US dollar became the medium of exhange. This is what causes the countries to hold vast amounts of US dollars and US treasury notes.
The currency against which all other currencies would be valued. Other countries must acquire dollars to be able to buy oil, but they invest those dollars in US securities. As long as it was a secure investment central banks were willing to do so to the tune of $1.7 billion a day. But since the US now has a huge trade deficit and national debt, other securities are looking more attractive. As long as the rest of the world could not compete with the US as a locus of investment, there was little difficulty in selling dollar debt instruments like Treasury Notes, US corporate bonds, and US equities to foreign savers. Now world investors are massively overweight in dollar assets. Even a moderate decline in demand for US assets would lead to a significant fall in the foreign exchange value of the dollar. What is happening now.
If the US dollar stopped being the reserve currency, we could not attract investment to service our debt. Dollars would be dumped, flooding the market. The Fed would increase the money supply to support the dollar bringing on rampant inflation. That's when menus at restarants are on chalk boards becuase the cost is going up by the minute. Not good.
All currency values are pegged to the dollar for stability. And no two currencies are equal. OPEC sells oil for only dollars by universal agreement. But the oil-producing countries are losing revenue as the dollar continues to erode. Because oil-producing countries purchase much of their goods and services from the EU, their purchasing power deteriorates. Euro 1.22 = 1 Dollar. This is why there is a movement towards the euro.
Interesting times are coming with China and USA. Who knows where it will all pan out. China has a history of melting down, lets hope it goes that way instead of them becoming a super power.
Care to understand how the money system works?
People seem to have trouble grasping how money is actually debt, and how particularly debt-based money relates to economic growth requirements. The following is an explanation from what I have found in reading about it from a number of sources. It is long but when people start to understand the interconnectedness of debt and the economy most find it very interesting. So here goes my best shot:
All nations currently have a money system based upon the creation of money being made through the issuing of loans.
If you go to Superb Bank Plc and take out a $5,000 personal loan, Superb Bank Plc needs roughly 10% of that loan amount in deposits in their bank in order to issue you that loan. So, assuming a $500 deposit in the bank that has not been used as 10% deposit on another loan, that means Superb Bank Plc can then create $5,000 via the signing of a bank manager's pen. The bank charges you, let's say, 12% APR interest.
Before we go on to how that relates to the economy, let's explain what can happen then and how this relates to further money creation.
You now go and splash out on a second hand car, previously owned by Bob. Bob, through the sale of that car, then goes to Brilliant Bank Plc and deposits that $5,000 into his account. It's his current account, so whilst Superb Bank Plc are charging you 12% interest, Brilliant Bank Plc are only giving Bob on his current account around 0.5% interest on that same $5,000.
Here's the crux though; the banking system then does not distinguish between unpaid debt and debt that has been paid back. In fact, under this money system, both are hard to define. So, Brilliant Bank Plc, with Bob's new $5,000 deposit created by the manager's pen at Superb Bank Plc, can then create a further $50,000 on this just-created money.
Whilst they are giving Bob 0.5% interest on his $5,000 deposit, they will charge let's say 12% interest on that $50,000 created money. They can make prospectively $6,000 in the first year (before compounding takes place if you do not repay) on that $50,000, create by the manager's pen, whilst Bob only gets $25 in the first year from his $5,000 deposit. Also, you are also being charged 12% on your $5,000 loan as well by Superb Bank Plc.
You get compound growth with your savings, hence the reason why banks only give very small interest on your savings - if they didn't, over time, 12% growth per year in interest on your savings would grow to very large amounts over a relatively small number of years. Over 10 years, with no repayments, with a $50,000 loan at 12% interest you would owe the bank $155,000. On Bob's savings of $5,000 - from which that money was created - at 0.5% interest, after the same amount of years his savings deposit would be worth $5,250. A net difference of $150,000.
Why Do Some Banks Offer 6% Interest On A Savings Account, If Only For A Short Period?
You will find this often in new bank startups. Many internet banks have offered such interest rates due to lower overheads than highstreet banks. However, most of the time they then (without reporting to you directly) reduce that interest rate down to a more modest level. Why do they do this? They need deposits first in order to make loans. By inticing people to move money to their accounts via high interest, and it is notoriously difficult to get people to change banks for any reason, they may then make more and more loans. After that, their profits grow.
Now we see how and why the banks make such large amounts of profits, whilst actually producing very little, and also why it is better for them if you don't actually pay back your loan.
The darker side to this is also, that commercial banks actually decide the direction of the economy by issuing or refusing loans.
Given that created money can then be used in another bank to make more created money, it is easy to see how this process can end up generating huge amounts of debt very quickly. In fact, besides paper money, it is estimated that 97% of money in circulation is now debt. Meanwhile, the only work the bank has to do is issue enough loans in order to cover all interest payments on deposits - which in most accounts are devaluing with inflation anyway. Statistically, all that requires is well-designed marketing campaigns targetted at the general public - it is virtually guaranteed that given a marketing exposure to the population, a certain percentage will then take out a loan providing that the potential benefits are communicated well.
So how does this relate to economic growth requirements? The problem that arises with the system is this: where does the money come from to pay back the interest on loans?.
Ultimately, this money must come from the issuing of new loans somewhere else within the financial system. Otherwise, somewhere along the line, someone will be finding it impossible to pay back interest on their existing loans, and bankruptcy will follow. Also notice, for interest's sake, that many people give their labour to receive money created by the pen of bank managers, who then profit out of that loan issue without doing any work for it. Now we know why owning a bank is such a great thing in this soceity - it is almost wealth without work.
Overall, then, this means that for debt to be constantly repaid, new industries and new markets must constantly be found and consumption of goods and services must therefore also rise, otherwise those new markets and industries would not be successful at generating sales. This is why our current economy requires growth and therefore growing consumption of products to remain coherent.
Why Does Inflation Occur?
This is fairly simple. If money is being created through loans at a rate faster than goods, products and services are being consumed, then the value, or purchasing power, of money decreases. This is bad for lenders, because this decreases the value of the money with which they are being paid back. It's also bad for consumers, because they can consume less with the money they have as prices of goods and products rise.
Why Does Deflation Occur?
The opposite case. If money created through loans is at a rate slower than the consumption of goods and services, then the value or purchasing power of money increases. This is good for the lenders, because this increases the value of the money with which they are being paid back. This is also good for consumers, because they can consume more with the money they have as prices of goods and products decrease (in theory).
Why Don't We Want Deflation Then?
Well, that would mean the economy wouldn't grow, wouldn't it? If less and less money were being created via the issuing of loans (causing deflation), we would hit the same problem as described before: at somewhere along the line, someone would find it impossible to pay back the interest on their existing loan, and bankruptcy would follow. In extreme cases, this can cause economies to go into financial cannibalism with a cascade of bankruptcies, if the economy doesn't recover to resupply the issuing of new loans.
How Is Growth Regulated?
Obviously, this system can easily exponentially cascade out of control. Therefore, in the US the Federal Reserve, in the UK the Bank of England, and in Canada the Bank of Canada control the base rate of interest. All commercial banks add their own level of interest onto this base rate, and therefore an increase in base rate means usually an increase in commercial bank interest rates will follow. I believe an increase in base rate also generally means an increase in interest rate on savings deposits. It also means mortgages and other forms of debt will also become more expensive.
Therefore, if the regulating bank increases base rate, a decrease in consumption generally ensues because consumers have less spare cash with which to pay for consumables, leading to a decline in economic growth as businesses get less sales. However, this cannot go on forever, as if growth in goods and services does not continue (i.e. consumption), at some stage, someone will be finding it impossible to pay back interest on their existing loans, and therefore bankruptcy will follow. It would also increase the percentage of the population who are unemployed because businesses receive decreased cashflows. Therefore, interest rate increases can only exist for a certain period of time and must be lowered in order for continued growth to occur and the paying back of loans. This is why after raising interest rates incrementally the regulating banks generally decrement interest rates afterward in some degree to provide a 'swingback' effect.
The regulating banks are also responsible for increasing money supply - through printing it in accordance with economic growth (demand for money). This means there is enough cash to supply the demand by the consuming population and commerce can continue unhindered - and therefore economic growth.
How Is This Related To Energy Supplies?
It is obvious that goods and services take energy to create and supply. A person supplying accountancy services requires a minimum amount of food per day. A machine creating a product requires a fuel/electricity supply. Therefore, unless efficiency of production increases at the same rate as growth in production, the economy requires increasing supplies of energy to function (i.e. to fuel ever increasing consumption of goods and products) - otherwise production will have to slow, which means a slow in growth of products or services supply, which means someone, somewhere will be finding it impossible to pay back interest on loans and bankruptcy will follow.
Notice two key points:
(i) In theory, this system can allow the creation of infinite wealth.
(ii) Accordingly, this would require infinite matter and energy in order to sustain infinite consumption.
Obviously, over the long term, this system is unsustainable, no matter what the energy considerations.
Therefore, the balance of this system is a constant balance between the supply of energy and efficiency of production. If energy supplies cannot increase with growth, or efficiency of production cannot increase with growth, or a complimentary combination of the two, with increasing consumption of goods and services, someone somewhere along the line will be finding it impossible to pay back interest on their existing loans and bankcruptcy will follow. It is easy to see if some major disruption to energy supplies, or efficiency increases (the first case is more practically likely) occurs then this will therefore lead to increasing bankruptcies. If a long-term interruption to energy supplies or efficiency ensues, this leads to increasing bankruptcies, a decrease in the supply therefore of goods and services, a decrease accordingly in consumption, and an increase in unemployment coupled with a decreased or negative economic growth.
Why Was This System Created?
The system was designed by humans and created to place greater pressure on society to grow in wealth, leading in theory to greater quality of life through the general increasing supply of money to society whilst the value of the currency remained the same (no inflation/deflation). It has assumed that if an individual is able to purchase more products and services to consume, that the individual's quality of life will be greater. It also, incidently, means ever increasing profits for banks which increase with economic growth.
The price has arguably been greater stress on society. It also means there is, unless productive output per population can increase, that increasing population numbers are required to fuel increasing production and consumption, coupled with the requirement for ever increasing supplies of energy assuming that efficiency does not increase with every increase in production and growth in the economy.
What Could This Mean For Stockmarket-Tracker Pensions?
Over time, the value of the stock market tends to increase with growth in the economy. This makes sense, as the number of companies increases or current companies grow in size with the increase in money supply - this is in fact a requirement, as unless companies become more efficient, growth in size/numbers must increase with increasing production and consumption. Therefore, a breakdown of the economy of compound growth (dicatated by compound interest payable on debt) will directly correlate with what is called a 'stockmarket crash'. If the growth in the economy does not happen, compound growth in pensions that are tied to the stock market (which many pension schemes now are, with the dissolvement of most final salary pension schemes in large or small companies) cannot occur and therefore pension funds cannot compoundly increase in value over a long period of time.
In fact, the dissolvement of final salary pension schemes may have been caused directly by the fact that this money system started up in 1971. Therefore, whilst many baby boomers started their careers before this money system was created, their final salary pension schemes are more or less an artifact of the previous money system. Of course, even with a final salary scheme, compound growth in a company's size is roughly required in order to satisfy it. Therefore, an ending of final salary pension schemes may suggest the lack of confidence in continuing economic growth into the future.
Conclusion
I hope this explains why, unless energy supply from oil, and the the energy form of oil (efficiency/cost) can be replaced, a failiure of the economic system is inevitable and will occur through ever increasing bankruptcies, decreased consumption and production, and (if one follows the requirement for an increase in population for more production), a corresponding decrease in population for this economy to remain coherent.
Where we are right now:
We need to extract a whole lot more oil in the near future to continue growth. 250 thousand jobs need to be created every month. That is the kind of growth we are talking about. The oil companys laugh and say it's not possible we are maxed now.

Freak
01-13-2005, 06:22 AM
LOL even drugh dealers are switching to euros. http://slate.msn.com/id/2111504