Best Hull for BGJ?

[Fogged Gullwing]

What would be the best hull to run in Blown gas Jet?
I've got this twin turbo Duttweiller Motor to put in something! Jack told me NO WAY in my gullwing so trying to find something different!
Thanks BK

[Nucking futs]

WE can put it in my boat and see if its safe!!!!!!!!!!!!

[77charger]

placecraft tunnel.

[Ken F]

Edge Stealth.

[Fogged Gullwing]

Hey kenny!
I was in wichita two weeks ago Tried to get to Duanes but had no ride. How is the cheyene? Stay warm!!!
BK

[DEL51]

How about the 21 daytona.Have the hull built similar to the big block 1400hp unblown aluminum head monster that ran 128 in the 1/4 mile. Buy an old daycruiser and see if you can produce the most awesome roostertail ever seen in a lake boat.Purchase the old Capolli hull and see if you crack 90mph before tearing the transom off. Or check out the RD Express'former ride. Set up for mega power, it is a race boat waiting for lots of h.p.. Friendly Suggestions from DEL51

[Cs19]

cheyanne or eliminator.

[Unchained]

I seen this boat run real strong, broke out of the 8 sec class.
Roger has it for sale too.
http://www.dragboats.com/images/gallery/03_10_IHBA_2417_845.jpg

[billet racing]

I'll be running that class with a twin turbo set up in a 21' Daytona. Probably not going to be competetive, but will still have fun.
generally I'm not competetive in the classes, but gives me more seat time and dial in for the brackets. We use this boat at the lake also.
Recently i heard that Eliminator would not sell a bare hull. Probably not enouph money(profit) as when they can sell a complete package.
Look forward to meeting you at the rope.

[OldFaithful Squirter]

Warhawk will still sells bare hulls to complete turn key models- He makes a youngblood splash of TX-20 in both a narrow interior for racing set ups or wide interior for more room on the lake models. I have the wide interior and it does make for a lot more comfort! Just contact Jim Robertson directly at 1-205-487-4589 he can hook you up! Tell him Kelly Craven from South Texas has one and tha I said he can hook you up!

[schiada96]

What would be the best hull to run in Blown gas Jet?
I've got this twin turbo Duttweiller Motor to put in something! Jack told me NO WAY in my gullwing so trying to find something different!
Thanks BK
We can run it in my boat for the summer and see how it holds together.

[revndave]

I'm gonna run my 21 tom papp phantom in BGJ this season.

[promod]

how about a cp tunnel 19ft what do ya think with that much power

[Unchained]

There was a real nice CP tunnel bare hull for sale at Firebird last Nov.
It was orange and yellow.
Looked like a lightweight race hull.
I didn't get the phone number but I'm sure someone here has it.
I think it was a few spaces down from BP's pit area.
Post some pictures of that Dutweiler motor.

[schiada96]

There was a real nice CP tunnel bare hull for sale at Firebird last Nov.
It was orange and yellow.
Looked like a lightweight race hull.
I didn't get the phone number but I'm sure someone here has it.
I think it was a few spaces down from BP's pit area.
Post some pictures of that Dutweiler motor.
I've seen it. It's one of Rick Head's motors from innovative turbo.
He jut went 7.66 at 187 on a radial tire. The best pass ever on a
radial tire.

[Duane HTP]

Here's a link to Roger's boat. It's a hell of a good deal.
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/Boatsforsale.HTM
It's towards the bottom of the page.

[Ken F]

BK
Doing good...you really ought to take a hard look at that Stealth of Roger's on Duane's site. It's already set up to run the speeds you are looking at.
Save you lots of time effort & money.
Ken

[Unchained]

I've seen it. It's one of Rick Head's motors from innovative turbo.
He jut went 7.66 at 187 on a radial tire. The best pass ever on a
radial tire.
A lot of people can't comprehend the extreme HP that is possible with turbo's for the person that wants to crank the boost up to 35 lbs + and run alcohol.
6 hp / ci would give you 3000 hp with 500 ci.
Their probably over that with the Lucas oil BAH.
They've dynoed 8 hp / ci on an alky burning import 4 cyl. of 104 ci.
Probably more potential with a DOHC 4 valve motor.
All that potential and you can still get 2hp / ci on pump gas.

[steelcomp]

I'd stay away from full entrapment hulls. Mod VP's...PC, (Hamilton/PC), Southwind (heavy) Bahner, etc. are the way I'm thinkin. (Like my Bahner)
10-4 on turbos...we know that, eh, BK?
Rick who?
Oh yeah, that guy. :rollside:

[bp]

6 hp / ci would give you 3000 hp with 500 ci.
Their probably over that with the Lucas oil BAH.
that is a very cool boat, i always root for it, and after all these years, tim stokes still kicks their ass every time. maybe some day...

[djdtpr]

It seems like the Stealth's Cheyenne's and Daytona's are what is gettin it done.

[Fogged Gullwing]

Thanks guys,
Rogers boat would probably be a good choice. Does anyone know what he want's for it less motor?
Jeff didn't you get your motor back allready? Jim said that you did. Yours is a good one too!!!
Unchained it would not matter about the pictures It's just a long block haven't done headers or turbo's as of yet. This was the motor out of rick heads corvette " owner of Inovative Turbo " that kenny did a while ago. The story behind it was that we where sponsored by Art Carr and we kept breaking the powerglides he was giving us. So we went to Harry Scribner and bought one of the old Lenco's from his pro stocker and put it in the vette. We went to Palmdale to test and the difference between a 174 first gear and a 264 fisrt gear was a little much. So much that Rick put the car into the guard rail. He took the car to a buddy of his to do the body work and in the middle of the night someone ripped off the entire top end of the motor. The original motor with a really crap set of brodix heads made 1175 hp and 1245 ft lbs of torque with a 80 mm wheel. With twin 60's it made 1350 hp and 1400 ft lbs. of torque. Since then I put a set of Todd Mc Kenzie ported Dart 360's on it so I think it will do much better. Rick will supply the turbo's after I figure out how much power I want. The motor is 468 ci. So it wont take much. The heads flow around 430 cfm. I was at kenny's when he did Bob Reigers pro street motor 430 ci. With the DCRE Olds heads on it. It made 2500 hp and we could'nt read the torque because it pegged the dyno. It really takes some creative clutch work to make the car run. After I talked with you the first time kenny pretty much hasn't changed if your not spending 80K plus with him your not going to get info over the phone. If your ever going to be out here You can stay at my place and I'll introduce you to him. That would be the only way you could pick his brain.
Scott yeah that Rick guy doesn't know what he's doing 7.66 @ 188 mph on a drag radial. He really P.O.ed those guys back east they wont even talk to him anymore. He's going out next year with a stamp that he's going to put on the hood scoop to mark all of his victims. Kinda like a WWII pilot marking his kills!
Later BK

[Unchained]

that is a very cool boat, i always root for it, and after all these years, tim stokes still kicks their ass every time. maybe some day...
If IHBA let the Fair Warning team run the EFI system that Duttweiler wanted them to use I think the story might be different.
The owner of the Fair Warning boat told me that they are forced to use a one of a kind mechanical fuel system that is a constant tuning nightmare.

[RD Express]

I have all the records from almost every pass I made in the Stealth. I run high 7.90's @136 and it was like riding in a pontoon. This boat would love 1500 + hp. I was putting 1400 -1500 to it and I really feel the boat would have hauled some major ass with another couple hundred horse. This is the only Jet boat I have ever seen that you can mash the throttle from a dead stop with very little spin (except my Cheyenne). Nobody believes this, but the buyer of this boat will get to see the QuikData.

[Fogged Gullwing]

Unchained ,
Yeah I was at Kenny's when he set up the F.I. on Fair Warning. it had to be mechanical and had no electronics to it at all. He used a Barrel valve to increase the fuel pressure as the throttle position increased. The Sudics who used to race BGH ran a similar set up. Haven't looked at the rules for BGJ lately but I don't remember them banning electronics from that class. No way to run a blow thru anything over 20 psi of boost it just wont work. I've been doing this stuff for over twenty years and anyone who tells you that they blow 20 psi thru a carb are lying or extreemely lucky!!!! Draw thru kills off so much kinetic energy from the compressor wheel that I would not consider it. I'm not saying it doesn't work it just kills alot of power. The difference between batch fire efi and sequential efi are over a 100 hp. If I have too run mechanical F.I. I'll probably put the motor in the car. I'm hooked on the FAST System that John Meany came up with Kenny hates it. He only uses the MOTEC but the base Box cost's 8500.00 yeah it has autosuck but I really don't need that. I'm going to the Njba web site and check the rules for BGJ.
I'll be Back BK

[Fogged Gullwing]

No Rules banning EFI !!!!
Yahoo!!!!! :)
Later BK

[Unchained]

The cost of some of the ECU's seems way out of line and that's what keeps a lot of people away from the EFI systems.
They need more competition to force the price down.
You SHOULD be able to buy the ECU for less than $ 500 considering a desktop computer with WAY more capability can be bought for $ 350

[bp]

If IHBA let the Fair Warning team run the EFI system that Duttweiler wanted them to use I think the story might be different.
The owner of the Fair Warning boat told me that they are forced to use a one of a kind mechanical fuel system that is a constant tuning nightmare.
like i said, i always root for their boat, they are great guys, it's a cool boat that does it different than the other guys, and they keep after it. it's not like the technology is new. don't know about the system you are referring to, but one thing to keep in mind; there are a lot of things that are used in cars that do not crossover due to the rules.
dragboat rules are very particular about the throttle being cable operated by the foot, and it must be direct between the pedal and the linkage. if the linkage becomes disconnected, it must be demonstrated that return springs return the engine to idle. nothing else is allowed. would this affect the use of the efi system?
in other words, a dragboat sanctioning body is not going to allow a system in which the throttle cable enters an ebox, which tells a cpu to provide an a/f amount to an engine? if this is kind of what you are describing(?) i don't think that will happen, either at ihba or njba. fogged, don't go in that direction.

[Fogged Gullwing]

Bp,
The throttle does not go into an ebox it goes to the throttle body which is just a butterfly like on a carb. If you were to loose the cable the engine would return to idle. There is a TPS " Throttle position sensor " on the throttle body this is used somewhat but the major control for the A/F ratio would be the Map sensor "Manifold absolute pressure" These are necessary for running any kind of boost. A while back John Meany was working on a efi cpu that would incorporate an O2 sensor on every cylinder and would read feedback to cpu that would have total control over the A/F ratio I think that kind of system is a little out of the spirit of racing. But if you ask unchained or anyone else that has messed with this stuff it's not a plug and play deal. There is quite a bit of work to get these things tuned properly. As far as BGJ I was thinking out load and getting opinions on the hulls that are safe. I'm going ahead with my gullwing in River Racer for now. and run a bracket after that. If I'm not working I'll be at ming at the opener to watch. Hopefully I'll be ready at the second race. I'll stop by and say Hi.
Later BK

[wsuwrhr]

MOTEC makes a nice peice, LINK does FI setups also, a little cheaper, but not as adjustable.
Brian

[steelcomp]

BK...the MOTEC is what we used on John Rains' V6. It was the first one Kenny ever messed with, and I installed that one and wired it. That thing had more data input capabilities than Microsoft. Kenny pulled his hair out for 2 days trying to get that thing to run. No boost control. Then I figured out the problem. Whoever made the headers put the waste gates in the collectors. They were being syphoned, not seeing pos. pressure at that point. I didn't think anything of it when I put the motor together, but it became obvious afterwards. I really like the MOTEC. Very versatile.

[Unchained]

But if you ask unchained or anyone else that has messed with this stuff it's not a plug and play deal. There is quite a bit of work to get these things tuned properly.
Later BK
That's true, but it was all related to my ignorance of tuning on the fuel maps.
It was learning curve but now that I'm somewhat comfortable with it I wouldn't go any other way.
Even though I'll be 50 this year I never want it to be said that I was too old to learn a new thing.
It's a breath of fresh air for me seeing others discuss turbo's and EFI setups.
Usually all you hear on these boards is,
Roots blower / Carbs or
Roots blower / Birdcatcher
Same setups as 25 years ago.

[cyclone]

Given the problems that are going to be presented by the harsher noise ordinances going into effect in California (an possibly the rest of the country in the future?), it makes me wonder how soon it will be until we see a resurgence of turbo motors. Ditch the roots blower and ot headers for a pair of turbos that should be quieter and make the same power if not more?

[bp]

Bp,
The throttle does not go into an ebox it goes to the throttle body which is just a butterfly like on a carb. If you were to loose the cable the engine would return to idle. There is a TPS " Throttle position sensor " on the throttle body this is used somewhat but the major control for the A/F ratio would be the Map sensor "Manifold absolute pressure" These are necessary for running any kind of boost. A while back John Meany was working on a efi cpu that would incorporate an O2 sensor on every cylinder and would read feedback to cpu that would have total control over the A/F ratio I think that kind of system is a little out of the spirit of racing. But if you ask unchained or anyone else that has messed with this stuff it's not a plug and play deal. There is quite a bit of work to get these things tuned properly. As far as BGJ I was thinking out load and getting opinions on the hulls that are safe. I'm going ahead with my gullwing in River Racer for now. and run a bracket after that. If I'm not working I'll be at ming at the opener to watch. Hopefully I'll be ready at the second race. I'll stop by and say Hi.
Later BK
for bgj, a midweight daytona works about as well as anything. sdpm's boats look real nice too. of course, there are always pc's and sw's.
the only problem we ever had with the o2 sensors was that they didn't seem to last long with the liquid environment, but that may just have been our problem, and something that could have been worked out. imo, development of technology is a significant part of what racing is all about. the spirit of it is this; you either keep moving ahead or fall behind. it's like mark said, you're never too old to learn, and you better be learning and adopting what you learn, or prepare to get your azz handed to you. i say, as long as it's built and operated within the safety rules, build it and show 'em.

[Fogged Gullwing]

Glad to see your open minded about it! A lot of people would have nothing to do with it. The Bug catcher guys would have a real eye opener if a big bad turbo unit came out!!! Still I'm considering it want to go River racer first and decide from there. I know your against it but I'm still considering that 460 inch drysumped prostock motor for skijet.
Later BK

[jamessampica]

I ran in BGJ in the IHBA with my 1987 Cheyenne and at RED BLUFF i set down a pass of 7.54 at 140 mph the same power plant was in an Edge and it ran 7.63 at 137 mph{RECORD HOLDER DAN NELSON}.So i guess what i'm saying is Cheyenne's do like HP.We were making 2000 hp with a BBC and a PSI blower.Hope this help's with your choose.Oh yes i did get my butt chewed out for going under the 7.70 rule so for those who was wondering.LATER!!!!
JIM S
P.S. Cheyenne's will mph and et.Hull weight is 550#.

[bp]

that was a bitchin pass, i remember it well. i think the cheyenne handled it much cleaner than the edge did. from talking to some other guys, as well as jim's opinion here, the cheyenne, daytona or sdpm, in this weight range seems to be good.
fg, i don't know if you can run a prostock skijet engine. i think they changed the head rules for ski jet, limiting what heads you are allowed to run? you might want to check on that.

[jet4fun]

if i'm not mistaken, prostock style heads (along with a few other things) are no longer allowed in any of the "ski" or mod-jet classes

[bp]

coulda fooled me.. i didn't think that boat used any oil... :cool:

[mj680]

It Don't Go Fast Enough To Use Any Oil.!!! :D :D :D

[Fogged Gullwing]

Here it goes guys as far as the 2004 rules go!
No aluminum blocks
No fabricated manifolds must be cast commercialy available.
No more than 1500 cfm and carb #'s must match approved NJBA #'s No carb modifications allowed.
Nothing about heads or dry sumps.
I've made 925hp with a single dominator on a 509 with dart 320's so losing a little cubic inch would not be a big deal. Losing the pro stock heads would'n't be a big deal either. You just got to have the head porter that I got!!!
Later BK
Ps I've run solid roller stuff on the river for a long time with no problems. It's like bp said you got to run the valves. I lash and unlash mine every trip that way I won't kill a set of 600.00 valve springs!!!

[bp]

It Don't Go Fast Enough To Use Any Oil.!!! :D :D :D
it goes fast enough to beat the competition, which is what usually counts ;)

[bp]

Here it goes guys as far as the 2004 rules go!
No aluminum blocks
No fabricated manifolds must be cast commercialy available.
No more than 1500 cfm and carb #'s must match approved NJBA #'s No carb modifications allowed.
Nothing about heads or dry sumps.
I've made 925hp with a single dominator on a 509 with dart 320's so losing a little cubic inch would not be a big deal. Losing the pro stock heads would'n't be a big deal either. You just got to have the head porter that I got!!!
Later BK
Ps I've run solid roller stuff on the river for a long time with no problems. It's like bp said you got to run the valves. I lash and unlash mine every trip that way I won't kill a set of 600.00 valve springs!!!
yes, that was 2004. there are new rules for 2005 limiting the types of heads you can use. from the december 2004 newsletter, second page:
1. Ski Jet, Ski Flat, Ski Hydro & Modified Jet
"Pro Stock style cylinder heads are prohibited. Intake port spacing must remain in stock OEM location as manufactured for production vehicles."
2. Ski Jet, Ski Flat, Ski Hydro
"2 speed transmissions are prohibited"
both of these were on the ballot, along with the sandbagging rule, which got most of the attention. the two rule changes above were apparently approved as written.

[mj680]

BP The new rule in Mod Jet on pro stock heads was proposed because THEY
weren't fast enough.If you can't beat MJ680,then outlaw them. Ron :D :D :D

[bp]

i think the point about heads is an attempt on somebodys part to keep costs of starter classes at a somewhat reasonable level. there are always holes in the rules where people are going to find ways to develop there stuff for a little edge. prostock heads belong in comp, pg, ubfj.

[mj680]

BP...Modified means Modified.Since 1970 there has been NO restriction on
Heads in Modified Jet.I ran Arias Hemi Chevy heads from 1977 to 1988.
By todays new rule,you can run a Ford spread port 8 degree head
because they came on production cars and have factory port spacing.
Also you can run Mopar Hemi Heads.The rule the cry babies got passed
makes no sence at all.Guess we will have to play there game this year.
Jim Picetti's boat has chevy heads (BRODIX-2X)and it runs 8.11 vs 8.70
or 8.80,so it takes more than just heads.We will see what happens.
I like challenges. RON :D :D :D

[jet4fun]

coulda fooled me.. i didn't think that boat used any oil... :cool:
dont tell jim, but one of my speed secrets is to run unleaded in the oil pan..... you know, the less friction the more horsepower.... BANG!!!!!!!!! :rollside:

[mj680]

i think the point about heads is an attempt on somebodys part to keep costs of starter classes at a somewhat reasonable level. there are always holes in the rules where people are going to find ways to develop there stuff for a little edge. prostock heads belong in comp, pg, ubfj.
BP..As far as keeping the cost down,My 12 year old Dart Big Chief Heads
cost me $2900.00 five years ago.To switch to The new Dart Chevy
heads,they are $5700.00($3450.00 for the new n/c castings) at
Reher/Morrison.So the attempt to keep the cost downed has failed.
:D :D :D

[mj680]

dont tell jim, but one of my speed secrets is to run unleaded in the oil pan..... you know, the less friction the more horsepower.... BANG!!!!!!!!! :rollside:
JET4FUN...Don't tell Jim,but I run NITRO in my oil.
It's good for .50 of a second. ;) ;) ;) RON
2002 Mod Jet NJBA High Points Champion
2002,2003,2004 NJBA Nationals Champion
Mod Jet Record Holder ET 8.08 ,MPH 127.22

[mj680]

:) Back to the subject.I think the safest hull to run in BGJ is the
Southwind Tunnel Dragster.The Cheyenne,Eliminator,Edge,CP will probably
blow over sooner or later with the power needed to run the class.
just my 2 cents. :) :) :)

[bp]

if you're really gonna go fast, like push the envelope, you're gonna need a capsule. a capsule in a well laid up cheyenne, daytona, etc., will work just fine. if you're really gonna make massive hp, and setup up something to go get it on... if your just gonna go play, a mod v is very safe.

[steelcomp]

if you're really gonna go fast, like push the envelope, you're gonna need a capsule. a capsule in a well laid up cheyenne, daytona, etc., will work just fine. if you're really gonna make massive hp, and setup up something to go get it on... if your just gonna go play, a mod v is very safe. :cool:

[jet4fun]

BP..As far as keeping the cost down,My 12 year old Dart Big Chief Heads
cost me $2900.00 five years ago.To switch to The new Dart Chevy
heads,they are $5700.00($3450.00 for the new n/c castings) at
Reher/Morrison.So the attempt to keep the cost downed has failed.
:D :D :D
so just keep the parts you have and run comp jet or pro gas jet, since you are legal for both of those classes already :idea:

[moneysucker]

The Fair warning team as a whole are great people. See them at San Diego races every year.