Jets in Hot boat mag

[Bense468]

How many of you guys out there would like to see more jets inside hot boat magazine? Don't get me wrong I like ***boat but it seems like every issue is the same. How many 24 footer and up Ultras, Elimintators, Hallets and on and on can they test. It would be nice if maybe they threw in some stuff about 18 and 19 footers every once in a while. Like maybe an articale about CP's or whoever else is still out there making them. What about those guys give them some credit to. Or put some more readers rides in that are clean with the before and after shots with a layout of what was done. This is the kind of stuff I thought I was signing up for when I subscribed. I got into some of my dads old hot boat mags and I think I am just going to start reading those. They are more intresting. Plus what is the biggest fourm of the hot boat fourms? That says something alone. What can we do. We all support hot boat and I think if you feel like me you should write a letter to them and let them know whats up. Just my 2 cents.

[Bense468]

I don't know about you guys but this is what I see in there. 26 foot cat. Base prise 70 grand. Price as tested 170 grand. Who has this kind of money? Every page is like that. I guess finacing is the American Way.

[Kwicherbichen]

I agree Bense! That's why I don't subscribe anymore. You would think HB would look at the forum and see that the majority of boaters own a boat under 24' and a good number of them are jets. Hell all these guys make jet boats 22' or less: Carrera, Eliminator, Liberator, Tom Papp, J&M Marine, and Ultra. Hot Boat, lets see more of them!

[greg shoemaker]

Last March we invited all the mfgs. participate in a jet boat test, guess what? we had 3 mfgs show up.The problem is that the customer not the mfg is pushing the market away from the jet. When you leave southern Calif. you basically leave the new jet boat market behind. I will admit that in the past few years I sold more boats to customers on the east coast and mid west.The IO has become a very popular form of boating. You've got a boating customer base that has already owned 18, 19, 20, foot boats and they want more comfort and the same speed they got use to with the smaller boats. The most important factor is that they have the money to support their boating habit. Hot boat has to pay it's bills and right now the mfgs. say big boats and thats what they have to cater to sad but true. Greg Shoemaker

[JohnwithJm]

I believe Greg is right on with his statements. But I still think that Hot Boat should try to cover more jets.

[SB]

Well SeaDoo sells a lot of jets. I'm not saying I'm running out to buy one. The point is that there is large market for cheap 19' jets. Apparently the west coast custom builders are abandoning that market rather than compete. Just out of curiousity, was Seadoo invited to the test?

[RiverToysJas]

I believe you can buy 4-5 late 70s, Custom, Hand Laminated, 18'-19' jet boats with big block automotive power on custom trailers for the cost of one of those "cheap" SeaDoo jets.
I from my own website I know that there is desire to see the classic jet boat. It's where it all started. It's where most custom boaters still start today. But first time boaters don't usually just go out and drop $25-30,000 on a new boat. That's what a new 19' custom jet would cost today, to start! There is a guy on these boards right now spending a lot more than that. But again, he's not a first time boat owner either. For a first boat, the 18-19 foot used jet boat is great start. I choose this boat because it'll go anywhere and it can be purchased cheap. When I upgrade, it'll be to a 21' Custom, probably new. Big Block, I/O. Will I still have an interest in 18-19' jets? You bet. I may even keep mine, in addition to the new boat. But when it comes to these small jets, the used market is where it's at. I like that people are preserving them. It's the driving reason I built rivertoys. I've said before, There is room in the market for a monthly, or even quarterly mag devoted to the restored classic ski, river and race boats of the 60s, 70s & early 80s. Something like Rod&Custom for boats. I like hot boat, I became interesed in new boats because of Hot Boat. Ultimately, that's what Hot Boat does, sells new custom boats - nothing wrong with that! I suggest a page or two called Classic Corner or something like that where a "classic" restored custom is profiled each month. They do this from time to time, I'd like to see it every month. There are certainly enough classic custom boat around to support this.
Just my .02....
RTJas http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[AntRant]

I feel the same way, When i got my first boat before the fall (CVX 20, 460bbf, Berk jet) i couldn't wate to find a mag with simuler intrest. Hot Boat looked like it would lessin the hunger but after a couple of issue i felt like Bense468. Looking a boat that i couldn't afford or had no intrest in right now. I agree with RiverToysJas "There is room in the market for a monthly, or even quarterly mag devoted to the restored classic ski, river and race boats of the 60s, 70s & early 80s." Someone need to start a simple little mag for this purpose...... AntRant

[Bense468]

I agree with you to Rivertoyjas. I was trying to say that a section or two maybe a 2 page section for jets and a 2 page section for flatties and what do you have 4 pages more in the mag. I don't think that would be so hard. But then again I am not the one that decides this. It also seems to me like they would actually have to "work" at hot boat. Instead of calling up eliminator and seeing what they got and having them give them the whole spill on this boat so then can write it up then go test it. They would have to find the jets and flatties but I am sure if they had somewhere to turn in your photos and info that they would get enough clean rides. I just want to see more reality and not the Havasu "finace" market.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

But that is the reality in todays world. It may not be your reality or my reality, but that is where the West Coast custom builder market is at. Hot Boat is driven to produce a magazine geared towards where the market is at and where it is going.
Do I agree with you about the $100K+ 25 footer and above, you bet. Sure, it's nice to look at and read about, but I can't afford one and probably wouldn't buy one anyway. I like my 21 ft. custom and pay more attention to the articles about boats that are similiar.
HD
Originally posted by Bense468:
I just want to see more reality and not the Havasu "finace" market.

[RiverDave2]

Bense468, the largest forum on ***boat.net is not the jet section anymore.. ***boats Hotspots is bigga.
As far as why there is not more coverage? It would seem that the rest of the world just caught on to a better method of propulsion! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif j/k (I'm just joking guys relax...)
I would think that part of the reason there is not more coverage is becuase nothing EVER changes with jets.. Since the place diverter has there been any REAL significant design improvements?
With I/O's there coming out with something every year.. I.E. counter rotating, Hydraulic steering, transmissions, different nose cones etc.. etc...
I guess what I'm trying to say is kinda the same thing you said above.. How many Big Boats can you test? How many jets can you test with one of three brands of jets?
just my .02..
RD

[RiverToysJas]

HD & RD, With all due respect, You both seem to be more or less stuck on where the market is. The problem you're refering to the new boat market. Where is the market right now for used boats? 18'-20' jet sure don't seem to sit on the market for very long. I know that the $$$ is in new boats and Hot Boat is directed mainly at the new boat market. Of course they showing long and expensive boats, that IS where the new boat market is at. Some of us are saying, F@#$ the new boat market, we are the used & classic boat market demographic. We are strong in numbers. You can sell ads in a classic boat magazine for things other than new boats. Engine shops, paint/gel, trailer repairs, pump & drive shops are all still fair game in a mag of this type. Even new boats ads could be in there, but the reviews and articles would be nearly exclusively devoted to the classics.
Now if I keep this up, I just may need to make River Toys the Magazine in addition to Rivertoys the website!
RTJas http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Jason, I think Dave and I are stuck on the currnet market because that is what Hot Boat has decided to dedicate their tests to and gear it's magazine towards. Could they add stuff about the classic jet boat?, of course, should they?, probably since, as you have said, there is a market for this type of boat. Especially at the entry level.
However, until they, Hot Boat, see a business reason to change the content of the magazine, they won't? Now, if they started losing subscriptions due to the fact that they don't cover the classic jet boat, well, there is your business reason for a change.
Personally, I think Dave is waiting for a new special edition Hot Boat mag titled "Hot Boat - Dedicated to Prop Forward Outdrives!" http://free.***boat.net/ubb/tongue.gif Sorry Dave, couldn't resist.
HD

[rivercrazy]

The basic reason for O/D coverage is all the boat builders want to produce larger and larger boats. This precludes the use of jets due to weight & bottom design.
Boat manufacturers make a hell of a lot more money making the larger boats. Go out and look and the prices of a 21 versus 24-26 footer. Their raw material and labor costs are not much different between a 21' and a 25'. However the selling price usually doubles along with their profit!
This profit is reinvested into advertising and ***boat and most other mags out there will cover the larger boats because that's what their advertisers want and pay for.
Because larger boats with O/D's are hot, popular, and trendy, more and more consumers buy em. Having the biggest and baddest is a disease.... I got it like everyone else. hehe http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

[RiverDave2]

Well you gotta look at it this way as well.. It's pretty dam hard to run a "universal" test on a jet as well. From what I've been told each mfg has there own version of A, AA, B etc.... Then you have lose pumps, tight pumps, (and my all time favorite) "Massaged Pumps" http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif etc.. etc... With a prop it's 22' a certain amount of slip (that's easily figured out) makes for easier testing.. I think it would be pretty easy to "cheat" on those tests as well.. As in Having a certain impeller in there that wouldn't be from the factory.. Who's gonna know? or even just clean up the factory one.. etc.. etc... Too much fun stuff for one mag.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave2 (edited January 02, 2002).]

[rivercrazy]

Ahh come on RD. Most of the prop manufacturers don't have consistent measurements of the props either. Its also pretty hard to tell if a props been rewored or lab finished if its done right also.
I'll admit that most props are faster than jets. (But not out of the hole though!)

[MrHavasuCat]

I have to say that in Havasu you don't see as many jets as you used to. I think it is a shrinking market. I had a 21 daytona jet that I bought new in 1996 and have since stepped up to a 26' cat with an outdrive. Most of my friends have done the same. I think the outdrive just offers better performance overall than a jet does. I still think that there is a market for jets, it is just getting smaller.
Rivercrazy,
You can definitely tell a labbed prop from a non labbed prop. The blades are much thinner and very sharp.
[This message has been edited by MrHavasuCat (edited January 02, 2002).]

[77charger]

hot boat has turned into powerboat in ,y opinion.I remember the first time i saw a hot boat mag and i was thrilled because ther were articles on jets and v drives.And even 19-21'i/o type family -performance boats.now its 25' and up ocean liners that cost 60k and up.

[rivercrazy]

I agree 77. Pretty soon its just going to be geared toward offshore racing with some cookie cutter boat tests thrown in for good measure.
To some degree, I understand that tests with an O/D are more standardized. After all O/D's are monopolized by one entity! Too bad too. They are a hell of a lot less incentivized to do R&D.
Havasu isn't the only place to boat. Its great and fun, but jets are still needed in many other waterways for dependability sake at least.

[RiverDave2]

I ain't buyin that dependabillity BS... Maybe shallow water but that's about it.. As far as dependabillity guys with jets are always tweakin something.. Ole Mercruiser is fire it up and go.. Only when you get into EXTREME horsepower situations is the dependabillity of an Outdrive comprimised..
Now back to the topic at hand, why are there so few jets in ***boat? I see them in there every now and again, didn't they just do a couple or write ups on Ultra's with jets?
RD

[spectras only]

RD, you say jets only dependable in "shallow" water.I challenge you logjumping in "deepwater" http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif.We'll see who makes it home http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif .You're welcomed to visit me in British Columbia with your boat and go for a cruise on the Fraser river or the ocean hehe.
[This message has been edited by spectras only (edited January 02, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by spectras only (edited January 02, 2002).]

[rivercrazy]

You can also put many more hours on a jet drive versus an outdrive before needed a overhaul. You will burn more gas though. Tank god its cheap at the moment... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

[RiverToysJas]

Originally posted by RiverDave2:
Well you gotta look at it this way as well.. It's pretty dam hard to run a "universal" test on a jet as well. From what I've been told each mfg has there own version of A, AA, B etc.... Then you have lose pumps, tight pumps, (and my all time favorite) "Massaged Pumps" http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif etc.. etc... With a prop it's 22' a certain amount of slip (that's easily figured out) makes for easier testing.. I think it would be pretty easy to "cheat" on those tests as well.. As in Having a certain impeller in there that wouldn't be from the factory.. Who's gonna know? or even just clean up the factory one.. etc.. etc... Too much fun stuff for one mag.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave2 (edited January 02, 2002).]
Who says the tests are "universal" now? What gears are in the drives, what prop is being used? This information is not usually provided in the testing information.
RTJas

[HBjet]

Hot Boat is printing what the builders are pushing. If a builder is going to push 30' cats, then Hot Boat is going to go in the direction. If a builder is just going to push 21' jets, then the mag will go in that direction. Let's not forget, the builders are what makes the magazine today. Why don't you see the evaluations of boats pointing out problem areas with certain boat, and possible improvements, etc. They don't want to upset the MFG. Every review or eval. is up and up. There is nothing wrong with any boat, every MFG is hitting the mark everytime. (so they print) Hot Boat is following the market of what the builders want to push. GS said it himself, they were going to do a jet test in March, and 3 MFG's showed up.
I've heard the Eliminator won't build you a boat smaller then 25', they will do the mold, but then you have to get it rigged somewhere else.
Hot Boat won't cover the used boat market, because who is going to pay them for that? Boat Trader? I think the route to go is with the tech sections, whats new, and whats survived (classic jet, v-drive, OB). I like the idea of gelcoat shops, or stereo shops on both coasts to meet the readers needs. Example: the best places to mount a cd-changer. Maybe even do a boat cleaner test, see what works, and what doesn't, and give a price comparision. The list can go on and on.....hopefully they read these forums for input.
HBjet
They could do and article on Splashing? Just a thought.
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited January 02, 2002).]

[RiverDave2]

HBJet, I think you've covered the splashing segment of the Market.. No point in writing an article on it now! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Personally I enjoy the ***boat I read every month, well almost every month.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif I don't think I would stop reading it unless they focused all there attn on bass boats for some reason.. I like reading about shiznit I could never afford.
RD

[racingrascal]

Some of you probably remember there was a thread not to long ago about the same subject. The market is on the bigger boats and so is the add. money. Im sure the companies make more money selling bigger boats, so why not sell them and why not advertise them? If people will buy them why not sell them? I do agree, I would like to see more "new" jet boats but on the other hand I would like to see a little section for the older flats and jets. There are some people out there that are still spending the big money on a small boat. All of us may not want a bigger boat. I do believe that Hot Boat is going to start showing some build ups of readers rides. (I think I read that or heard it). I like reading about all boats but it would be cool to turn a page and see a brand new 1000 hp 19' pickle fork for a change. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif Hot Boat do you have an answer for us?
RiverDave you say all outdrive are reliable until you put huge hp to them. Do you consider 600hp huge? Im not saying that an out drive can't handle huge hp, im just saying that you need to do some very expensive work to them to make them reliable. In a jet you buy a SS impeller and off you go. Outdrives are less reliable then a jet because of gears,shafts,cooling etc. Dave I know your response will be "a outdrive has higher top speed and uses less gas to do that", my response to you would be take to of the same cars and put two different rearend gears in them. One is going to fly out of the hole and the other is going to idle down the freeway. I personely like both, jets are fun as well as props. My personel thought between the two is one hauls ass out of the hole and the other hauls ass all day long.
Andy
[This message has been edited by racingrascal (edited January 02, 2002).]

[wsm9808]

Not all of us(HB readers) live on the coast or at Havasu or near any water at all. Most of the lakes(ponds) around us poor inland fokes are hardly big enough to turn a 25ft boat around in, much less top it out. And when you tow your boat a minimum of a 300 mile round trip to the lake, a huge boat tagging along behind you is not a very practical option. I'll bet if you had a way to check sales records of boats over the last few years, the 21 and under boat sales would out number the big ones by quite a margin. But the little boats dont have a big profit margin, so they dont get the ad dollars the big ones get.
I dont dislike Hot Boat for highlighting the big boats, I just miss having some where too read about my jet boat hobby. I grew up reading car mags with lots of tec and photos of what I like to see about cars, and Hot Boat started out in that direction with boats several years ago and evolved into what it is now. But like you other guys, I wish they would give us a little section too, because I'll bet there are more average Joe-gear-heads reading every month than there are Daddy-deep-pockets looking to buy a quarter million dollar boat.

[greg shoemaker]

One of the reasons I stopped doing the Jet Tech was a lot of the questions were the same thing in a different boat. My goal with the mag. is to concentrate on more tech articles and restos on jet boats. All kinds of jet boats. GS Marine build about 15 to 20 custom jet boats a year I'm sure you don't want me to an article on a new jet everytime we build one.This is where you guys come in I need input for you and I'm sure we can make some space for these kinds of articles.We put on a jet boat regatta and nobody showed up. I understand your concerns and realize likes and dislikes so lets work together and see if we can't make a postive forward. Greg

[Bubbledeck2]

maybe I'm out of touch, but to me a "hot boat" is a 18 to 21 foot boat with gobs of horsepower or at least a bunch of cubic inches.
The new big boats in my opinion are nice to look at and comfortable, but I wouldn't drop 75K or better on one even if I had that kind of money .. but it's all about priorities and I'm not putting down the guys that like big boats. We've all seen Hot Rod Magazine and I doubt you'll ever see a 32 valve Lincoln Continental on the cover, so outside of the obvious (money) seeing a 26' plus on the cover of Hot Boat is beyond me.
I know I get more looks and compliments with my little popsicle stick sporting a big block than Capt. Bux does with his Large Barge, but to each his own.
RD I have had DoubleBubble for 5 trouble free (almost) seasons. btw, how much did it cost you to fix your o/d last year? http://www.goldenplasma.f2s.com/forum/smilies/happy02.gif

[1quickjet]

Sounds like everyone is pretty much in agreement, not enough jets and flats. You guys read my friggin' mind. Just last night the wife and I had this discussion. She reads "BigBoat," err ***boat too, and always asks "who can afford this stuff?" We were just talking about how cool it would be to have a magazine with homebuilt jets and V-drives. (I mean mainly flats, but I love all those blown Schiadas on Parker too!) It would be so cool to read about more homebulit boats, afterall they are far more unique and creative than your average 40' fountain that looks and runs just like the next guys. Who cares if he dropped 8k for someone else to install a procharger on each engine on his boat? I would like to see more stuff built by owner, or custom shops. How about feature some of the custom installations that have come out of such shops as GS Marine or Wilkes Marine. Im sure everyone in here would appreciate seeing all the hand fabricated one-off parts I've seen recently on a new Daytona that rolled out of Gregs shop. Jas, I would be first in line for Rivertoys the magazine. Not much I find interesting in BigBoat anymore. Ok, so I like the girls. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[RiverToysJas]

Originally posted by greg shoemaker:
I understand your concerns and realize likes and dislikes so lets work together and see if we can't make a postive forward. Greg
Greg, What about a "project" build up. Hot Boat feature a classic jet or flat bottom restoration. Start (the raw boat, right from the Boat Trader), several articles over all 11 months starting with an assement of what could and should be done, depending on the boat they could cover new flooring, wiring (and not just these guys at so&so really got their stuff together so if you need wiring - drop several grand here, honestly, some of the "articles" need the word "advertisement" printed at the top), Maybe fuel tank installation, steering cables and racks, you know - real hands on stuff - like we all do with our own boats. Stuff that is actually useful to keep around and go back to for referance. Then on the last article of the resto, complete water testing. One boat a year, that's what I'm talking about. NOW, there is the business side of it....I can run the press that prints this magazine all day long, but the technical end of actually publishing one, that's another story.... If it'll sell magazines, I'm sure it could be done.
Now why didn't "anyone" show up to the jet regatta? I just know that I first heard about it when Hot Boat covered it. I called Joker's Wild to register for the next one and was told that there would only be an "all boat" regatta next time.
I'm nobody & this is just what I'd like to see...
RTJas.

[77charger]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bubbledeck2:
[B]maybe I'm out of touch, but to me a "hot boat" is a 18 to 21 foot boat with gobs of horsepower or at least a bunch of cubic inches.
that is my opinion of a hot boat too.even if it has an o/b or i/o

[burbanite]

I too grew up with the hot rodding mentality, when I first started reading Hot Boat (decades ago) it was all about that same kind of thing, more down to earth type articles with racing thrown in. Things have changed but I haven't, I don't care how much money I might win in the Powerball, I still love the smaller jets and v-drives and the more things do change the more I believe there is a place for another magazine catering for this kind of thing. If the established mags keep following the advertising dollar the way they do, (I agree with the opinion that Hot Boat can find no fault with the boats they test, hell, I'd want to know the truth if I was a manufacturer so that I could fix it), then that will alienate people like me, Hot Boat used to be the one that was "different" from the rest and that was the reason I chose them over the others.
Maybe another magazine would need to include things like the hydros from the 60's and 70's, more racing articles and certainly more hands on tech stuff. A niche market? Probably, but is that not how most of these magazines started in the first place.
I still subscribe to Hot Boat but I only do so "in case I miss out on something". It takes me about ten minutes to read and that includes scouring the classifieds.

[wsm9808]

Have that Regatta in Texas, our little informal unadvertized one last year had 35 boats and we are expecting 50 this year. With ads I bet it would double that.
Maybe getting the same questions over and over in the tec coloum would indicate that there is a shortage of information out there on jet hop-ups, and everytime someone new wants to start tinkering with their jet, that is the only place they have to turn to with the questions. Look at all the car,golf,gun,camera etc mags out there. They go over and over the same stuff all the time and just reword it a little, and people buy them like hot cakes. I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about publishing a magazine, but I do know what I like to read and that is tec, build-ups, performance upgrade compairasons and reader rides.
However, I'm sure it is hard to come up with something that sounds fresh and interesting every month in a coloum like what Greg was doing, or for any coloum for that matter.
While I'm at it I would like to thank Greg for helping me over the phone with my pump a few months ago. Before I started coming to this forum I had started rebuilding my pump and ordered a pump kit and impeller from a company advertized in the back of HB. They sent me the right kit and impeller for my Dominator but the wrong wear ring. When I called them about it with my pump housing measurments they did not know anything about housing sizes and swore that I had the right wear ring and that someone had modified my housing and told me to get a machine shop to build a custom one to fit it($$$$$$$). I had by then read some good stuff about Greg so I called his shop to see if they could make a wear ring.He personaly came to the phone and knew the sizes of my housing right off the top of his head, which matched my measurments. Turns out MY HOUSING IS A STANDARD SIZE and Greg had the right ring on the shelf and sent it out to me. So, thanks Greg. I wanted to pick your brain about my rebuild while I hade you on the phone, but I felt bad because I had bought the rest of my parts from somewhere else. We live and learn.
Thanks, Scott

[RiverToysJas]

Here's a little, true story in Hot Boat's defence (again, I like Hot Boat, but would also like to see something along the lines that we're talking about):
About three or four years ago I was at a Southern California Custom boat builder's facilities. We'll call the builder CustomCraft to protect the guilty. I talked to the owner of CustomCraft about his boats and some the of the different things he was doing in his shop. He had an issue of Hot Boat with his boat in it. I started thumbing through the issue and he mentioned that the review Hot Boat gave his boat was total BS and that he was quote "in a big law suit with them over it". He had a pile of the issue in question and I took one home to read. The review was less than stellar but on the other hand, if CustomCraft had took their advice and turned around and said, "thanks Hot Boat, how can we make a better boat for next year?" Maybe Hot Boat wouldn't of developed into a everyone gets a great review everytime, type of magazine. I know CustomCraft is still in business, although I haven't seen their boats in Hot Boat since. Too bad. Now Hot Boat wasn't totally w/o guilt in the article in question, there was a line or two that were a little under handed - in my opinion. I never discussed case with the owner of CustomCraft or even specifically why he was so upset by the article.
Please, nobody try to brain-storm who CustomCraft is or anything, I just wanted to point out how some builders feel about less than a good review. I guess there is a balance to maintain.
RTJas.
[This message has been edited by RiverToysJas (edited January 02, 2002).]

[wsm9808]

Rtjas, BTW, I really liked your suggestion about a build up of a project boat. That is very constuctive to have an idea, not just a complaint. Maybe myself and others can follow your lead.

[1quickjet]

Originally posted by RiverToysJas:
Please, nobody try to brain-storm who CustomCraft is or anything
Yeah, sure Marine001. Uh, I mean Jas. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif J/K!

[bratprince]

I am a new reader to ***boat and for that matter just recently purchased my first boat..a 21' jet..I bought my first issue of ***boat assuming by the name that this would be where I would find the information I needed to become educated about what I owned and more importantly how to fix it up. I have learned a bit from jet tech but I find myself more confused than enlightened. I guess what I am most concerned about is the constant "well the advertisers dictate what the magazine is"..Where did my subscription money go? Aren't we the customers. I really would like to find a magazine that covers information on how to do this, that, and the other thing that I could take out to the garage and try on my boat. So far my favorite issue has been the bring on the jets test from late last year. Is it possible to expand the jet tech section from just answering the same questions each month to maybe including some step by step instructions on those repairs and motifications? I have enjoyed looking at some of the large pricy boats but mostly just for gelcoat designs..since unless I can live in one of these things and sell my house, I don't think I'll ever own one. (p.s. does anyone kow if that two pumps on one intake thing actually works?....I want to hear about the new jet technoligy too!!!!)I like my ***boat magazine and will renew it when it expires but I would be first in line to subscribe to ***boats under 21' magazine if anyone ever makes one.

[flat broke]

Originally posted by RiverToysJas:
Now if I keep this up, I just may need to make River Toys the Magazine in addition to Rivertoys the website!
RTJas http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Well Everyone,
There's the ticket. I have tossed this idea around with Cas before and the bottom line is that it's gonna happen it happens online because going to print is waaaay too expensive. If you want articles on specific topics on a website, let someone like Jason or myself know. But please realize that in order for someone like myself to do an article on something like a ground up resto, I'd need to find someone doing the project and have their cooperation. If you are a shop and want some exposure for free, shoot me an email about an article idea and we'll see what we can do.
People can piss and moan about HB all day long, but in the end they run a business and the big money is in big boats so thats where they focus their efforts. I don't blame them, I just acknowledge their situation for what it is. If you don't like something you can either shut up and walk away, bitch till your blue in the face, or see an opportunity to do something creative to change the situation. HB isn't going to change so might as well pick your outcome and move on.
just my .02
Chris

[RiverToysJas]

Alright Chris, I've got the forum and if anyone wants to write a tech piece and submit it to me, along with photos, I'll build an entire section in Rivertoys for this purpose. This offer is open to shops also (free advertising). I can build the articles in a print friendly way so people can print the articles out and take them to their workshops! If I get a chance I may write one myself when I upgrade my ignition system later this spring.
Lets do it...(wondering what I'm getting myself into...) http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
Jason. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by RiverToysJas (edited January 02, 2002).]

[RiverToysJas]

Guess I should add my e-mail address!
Jason@rivertoys.com
RTJas.
[This message has been edited by RiverToysJas (edited January 02, 2002).]

[Bense468]

I think that is a great idea. I mean all of us have something we are tinkering with. I took a boat that was a pile and turned it into something. Even did the capping myself. I am only 22 bought the boat right when I turned 19. But the bottom line is someone is always altering something. I have noticed that not everything works right. Next year I will be building a CP and doing a lot of custom things like making my own billet rail kits and bellhousings. I want to rig this thing bitchen. Thats the kind of stuff I am intrested in. Like if I run a center skag in my boat what does it take to do that. Cooling! everyone seems to wonder about cooling. If everyone kind of wrote up there own thing and there was a user submitted section it would be cool, along with a section for shops articals. Just clarify that it is user submitted. Just for ideas you know. Maybe some before and after shots of readers rides with brief descriptions. SO you know this guy did not buy it. I like to see what people did themselves. Don't get me wrong having a big artical or two every month from a shop is really cool, Just my 2 cents.
[This message has been edited by Bense468 (edited January 02, 2002).]

[greg shoemaker]

WOW!!!! Sounds like alot of frustrsted jetboat Hot Boat readers. First of all I'm still on the evaluation team with Hot Boat and Ican tell you we call em as we see em. What you fail to realize is the mag has done a lot of good in bring the standards of the mfg way up. Believe me if we see a problem it is noted and at the time of the evaluation. What happens is that the boat we evaluate is not always what is sold to the public that is an area we cannot control. How many boaters subscribe to Hot Boat? How mant jet pumps are sold in the USA in one year.

[greg shoemaker]

WOW!!!! Sounds like alot of frustrsted jetboat Hot Boat readers. First of all I'm still on the evaluation team with Hot Boat and Ican tell you we call em as we see em. What you fail to realize is the mag has done a lot of good in bring the standards of the mfg way up. Believe me if we see a problem it is noted and at the time of the evaluation. What happens is that the boat we evaluate is not always what is sold to the public that is an area we cannot control. How many boaters subscribe to Hot Boat? How mant jet pumps are sold in the USA in one year. This does not include jet skis. Most all the project boats are customer funded not by Hot Boat. Any Takers? Greg

[greg shoemaker]

WOW!!!! Sounds like alot of frustrsted jetboat Hot Boat readers. First of all I'm still on the evaluation team with Hot Boat and Ican tell you we call em as we see em. What you fail to realize is the mag has done a lot of good in bring the standards of the mfg way up. Believe me if we see a problem it is noted and at the time of the evaluation. What happens is that the boat we evaluate is not always what is sold to the public that is an area we cannot control. How many boaters subscribe to Hot Boat? How mant jet pumps are sold in the USA in one year. This does not include jet skis. Most all the project boats are customer funded not by Hot Boat. Any Takers? Greg

[rivercrazy]

I agree with Greg. Some of the manufacturers bring boats to the evals that are not representative of the boats they sell everyday. Again I said SOME not ALL.
I bet only 2-3K new pumps are sold per year. A small fraction of the O/D's Merc sells.

[mikey]

Originally posted by HBjet:
I've heard the Eliminator won't build you a boat smaller then 25', they will do the mold, but then you have to get it rigged somewhere else.
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited January 02, 2002).]
Not True. We do build smaller boats and some jet boats. Last year (2001) we built less than 10 jet boats and over 300 outdrives. If you were in the shop back in late November you would have saw two 210 eagles with jets going together. We did another in early November. Everybody wants big boats today, 25' and up, and almost all are the Daytona. Most manufactures, like us, have re-designed thier smaller v-bottom boats with stepped hulls that do not work with jet application.
I do think ***boat should look at the number of post in the jet boat forum. They could do articals on some of the early jet boats. I see lots of post asking about info on a Sleek-Craft, Kona, Wriedt, Spectra, Southwind, Sidewinder, ect. Why not do a few pages on the history of the So CAL jet boats and the manufactures. Do a few test comparing a jet VS. i/o. I think most readers would be surprised to find the Jet boat is not as bad as most make it out to be. The customer is told the jet burns more gas. Motors do not know if they are hooked to a jet, V-drive, Sterndrive or on a dyno stand. A 454 with a jet will turn about 4800 rpm at WOT and burn 'X' amount of gas. Now hook this motor to a stern drive, prop it for 4800 rpm at WOT, and it will still burn 'X' amount of gas. Jet packages are less expensive than a comparable sterndrive, much lower maintenance cost, and you never have to replace/repair a propeller/skag. I still belive, over all, a jet is the least expensive way to go boating.
Mike
Eliminator Parts Manager

[ChetCapoli]

Well how bout dat!
ol rahndy seems to be mistaken. hmmmm
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/eek.gif

[froggystyle]

Originally posted by greg shoemaker:
We put on a jet boat regatta and nobody showed up.
You didn't ask me! It is well known that the manufacturers have somewhat abandoned the jetboat market, but the enthusiasts have not. Now your regatta was advertised to new boat manufacturers, of which three showed. Advertise that on "Jet Tech" and see the level of diversity you get. I'll be there, and I know my man HB Jet is down! You will see jets with power, gelcoat, stereos, bikinis, and everything else that is so cool about them. You guys just show up first thing, and choose the ten you want to test. THEN, write the article on your jetboat roundup.
Manufacturers are not the only people willing to drive to Havasu http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Thanks for playing Greg.

[Bense468]

I second that. I never heard about the jet regatta until it was over. I was thinking I am going next year for sure. But when is it who knows I don't? So maybe no one show up because it is not properly advertised or maybe us jet boaters are tired of throwing the magazine down after 5 minutes because there is 1 or 2 good things to read in there that is in our intrest.

[Bense468]

I know all these jet guys in here are subscribed so why did no one show up? I bet if you advertised on this fourm you would have a grip of jetters that show up

[HBjet]

Originally posted by mikey:
Not True.
Mikey, someone I know went to Eliminator wanting to build a 19' Daytona (the one that started it all) and they were told that Eliminator will do the mold, but that is it, no rigging, no motor, nothing else. So what does that tell me? Boat MFG's want to build the bigger boat (more profit) Also, the price for just the mold was pretty high, maybe to have the customer look into buying a bigger Daytona complete for 2 or 3 times the cost of the 19' mold? Now, I'm sure if someone really wanted Eliminator to build a 19' Daytona complete they would, but the price of the boat would be outrageous. I'm not knocking Eliminator here (I own one) I'm just saying that the builders dictate more of the market then the consumer.
HBjet
PS. Chet, maybe if Aggressor was the pump of choice for these new boat builders, they would sell more jets, huh?

[RiverDave2]

I don't have time to read all the responses right now as I'm off to a meeting, but I'll respond two the two that I did catch for right now..
Andy, 600hp in an I/O? That's a considerable amount of Horsepower, wouldn't say HUGE, but I'd say it's an awful lot.. Bottom line is YOU DON'T NEED THAT MUCH for an Outdrive.. I hear that all the time in here.. Well you can drop 1000hp in a jet and it'll be fine, try doing that with an Outdrive.. I don't understand why? To me it just displays A "HUGE" amount of inefficiency.. I could drop 5000 Horsepower to a big Water Brake, does that make it cool? Keep in mind it still ain't going no where.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
To the little comment about $$$$ for fixing the I/O.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif I don't consider running aground and reliabillity in the same department..
Previous to this boat my family had a small block Alpha combo day cruiser, 20+ years and nothing ever went wrong with it... Gotta jet that still runs hard after 20 years? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif Or does it have to be "reworked, and massaged, and tightened up, and siliconed, and.... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif well you get the point."
Yes sirree Bob, I/O's are the wave of da future.. Mind as well just shut the jet section down right now and get a jump on things! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif (I'm just kidding again guys)
RD

[rivercrazy]

Randy. Next time we are in RD's boat at parker we let our hats blow off and tell RD to turn around. I bet he won't! hehe LOL j/k...

[mikey]

Originally posted by RiverDave2:
To the little comment about $$$$ for fixing the I/O.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif I don't consider running aground and reliabillity in the same department..
Previous to this boat my family had a small block Alpha combo day cruiser, 20+ years and nothing ever went wrong with it... Gotta jet that still runs hard after 20 years? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif Or does it have to be "reworked, and massaged, and tightened up, and siliconed, and.... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif well you get the point."
(I'm just kidding again guys)
RD
So you never had to change the water pump in your Alpha, Change the gear oil, repair or replace a propeller/skag, replace an inner shift cable, never pulled the drive to lube the u-joints? all things that would never have to be done on a jet drive. Jets have a shaft with a bearing at one end that only needs a little lube and a bushing at the other. The shaft has an impeller attached that rides near a wear ring. All of this turns one direction, unlike an i/o. Not sure what is mean by "reworked, and massaged, and tightened up, and siliconed", but the only damage I have seen to a jet is from sucking sand and rock when boating in shollow water. This is an opperator problem and not a design problem with the jet. If this person boated the same with an I/O they would be replacing the lower half.
Mike

[rivercrazy]

and maybe the gimbal and possibly the transom...

[HBjet]

Rivercrazy, RD won't turn around for our hats, he's smarter then that, but if it was his hat, that is a different story.
RD, there is no reason why you can't run a jet for 20 years as long as you don't run up on the beach, do the proper maintence, and never run it out of the water, your fine. There will be some effenciy loss over time, but no more then an outdrive under the same care.
HBjet

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I don't get why everyone gets so defensive about why an outdrive is better than a jet or why a jet is better than an outdrive, and then the eggbeaters! DAMN people, they're all boats and everyone likes their own and has their own preference. I've driven all three. Personally, I liked the outdrive better. But that does not mean I don't like Froggy's boat, or HBJet's, or RacingRascals, or RTJas, or Barney's. I think all of their boats are cool for different reasons.
They're boats and we go to Havasu or Parker, IT'S ALL GOOD PEOPLE! http://www.plauder-smilies.de/person/hat.gif (with props to HH)
HD
[This message has been edited by Havasu_Dreamin (edited January 03, 2002).]

[RiverDave2]

Yep... I'd like to take special not on one part of Havasu Dreamin's post.. With PROPS to HH.. Notice how they don't say, With Jets to HH? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD

[RiverToysJas]

Originally posted by RiverDave2:
Yep... I'd like to take special not on one part of Havasu Dreamin's post.. With PROPS to HH.. Notice how they don't say, With Jets to HH? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD
Come back when you actually own a boat RD! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
j/k, couldn't resist!
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RTJas
[This message has been edited by RiverToysJas (edited January 03, 2002).]

[HBjet]

Ouch!

[MrHavasuCat]

With regards to bigger boats the fact is that is where tha market is at. I can remember when I bought my 21 Daytona from DCB in 1996. Back then if you saw a 25' Daytona or a 24' Skater in his shop it seemed huge, they were the exception. Now if you go to DCB all you see is 26' cats being rigged, and maybe even a 34. You don't see to many of his 22' Machs being rigged anymore. People are just buying bigger boats.
As far as reliability goes, I am putting 800 hp through a merc xr drive and after one season have had no problems. In my 21 Daytona I sucked a finger off the intake grate and destroyed an impeller with less than 10 hours on the boat, so you never know.

[HBjet]

It must have not been a very good grate then, or just dumb luck. Like you said in 1996, there were not too many big cats around, that is because there weren't that many builders making them. I don't think customers are walking into these shops saying, hmm, this 22' cat is nice, but if you made a 26' I'd buy that hands down. The builders are making these big boats with what they have learned from the smaller boats, and they have also learned there is a greater profit in the bigger boats. Yes, there cost goes up, but the profit margin is also up. There is no question, I'd build the big boats too. I like money. If every boat builder kept the same profit margin on every boat made, I think you would see more smaller boats made, because you can get them delivered faster.
Why waste the time on a 21' boat when it will delay the delivery of a 34' boat with double or triple the profit?
HBjet
[This message has been edited by HBjet (edited January 03, 2002).]

[Bubbledeck2]

wow Mr H Cat, I thought I was the only one in the world with a pump that fingered itself.
I was told that maybe somewhere down the line a ski rope had been sucked up and tweaked the finger setting up a harmonic vibration that eventually snapped it off.
Anyways RD, that doesn't fall under "reliability" either and besides the fix cost less than 2 good props http://www.goldenplasma.f2s.com/forum/smilies/happy06.gif

[77charger]

Originally posted by RiverDave2:
To the little comment about $$$$ for fixing the I/O.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif I don't consider running aground and reliabillity in the same department.
RD
youre not refering to my little laughlin incident now are you.hehehehehe
it was driver misjudgement of depth.but is repairable for the price of a new impeller and wear ring under 500.00

[Kwicherbichen]

Wow this thread took off like a wild fire!
In my humble opinion I think the market for the smaller jet boat is fading a little because of several factors. 1) It's not that comfortable riding around in a 19' semi-v jet at places like Havasu & Parker anymore. It's just getting way too rough with all the wakeboard & large boats. 2) Economics have changed in our country in the last 10 yrs. There are a lot more high dollar CEOs & guys that made it big in the internet thing. They aren't buying small boats, they buy big boats because it's BIG PIMPIN time. 3) Financing has changed a lot. Financing a big boat for 15 yrs isn't uncommon. 4) The dollars are in the big boat market. It doesn't cost a manufacture all that much more to layup a 30' than it does a 20'. That's just what I've heard so I can't back it up with solid facts. It seems to make sense though. 5) Another thing I heard was, ***boat has asked & is willing to "test" and "feature" your boat if you're a small boat maufacture if (shhh) you participate in their advertising program. In other words, shell out some cash to advertise with us and we'll make your boat look real cool in our mag. Problem is, most of the smaller (18'-21') maufactures don't have the cash to "participate". Just my .02
Personally, I boat at the lower parts of the river for the most part. Occasionally I take a cruise to Havasu, Mead, Mojave, or our local So Cal lakes. So it doesn't make sense for me to get a big'ol boat that I can't ski behind, will hit bottom, and doesn't fit my lifestyle. My next boat will be a 21' Deckboat. I think it will fit all my needs.

[Heatseeker]

Why can't we all just get along...? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[RiverDave2]

Originally posted by RiverToysJas:
Come back when you actually own a boat RD! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
j/k, couldn't resist!
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RTJas
[This message has been edited by RiverToysJas (edited January 03, 2002).]
I like my arrangement just fine... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Now lets talk about that 72mph... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD

[RiverToysJas]

Originally posted by RiverDave2:
I like my arrangement just fine... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Now lets talk about that 72mph... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD
You do have a fine arrangement, and for the record I've never claimed more than 68 and that was GPS confirmed, but under rather poor conditions. I do think that under near perfect conditions, I can hit 70. Remember, I'm not even running hearders! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif But if want to go 72, ride with HB! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RTJas

[e-ticket]

RiverToysJas
This is what I've been looking for too!
I'm involved with two projects myself.
I always need to know how to do things.
Gary(e-ticket)

[burbanite]

Gregs comment about some of the boats not being the same as those available to the public brings back memories of a long time ago when I had some involvement in "preparing" cars for evaluation purposes.....need I say more!
I agree that the manufacturers involvement in these and other evaluations probably has raised the standards, at least I would hope so, my comment above shows that I am a little wary about what is and isn't "real". http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif
This subject has revolved mainly around jets but I believe it applies equally to the v-drive fraternity as well, personally, I think of them as part of the same group when it comes to discussions like this. I just happen to love the smaller hot rods, I also like most other types of boat and if I ever get my scanner fixed I'll show you some of the things I have been involved with, (I know, I've been threatening to do this for a while but it is close).
Hot Boat has been a part of my life for years and years. Like I said before, it has changed and I haven't, that doesn't make it bad, just not as appealing to me as it used to be. Will I stop subscribing? Probably not. Would I be more attracted to a magazine that featured the type of things I like? Absolutely, but until that happens I'll stick with what I have and put my two cents in regarding the type of articles I would like to see.

[RiverToysJas]

I've heard rumors that some builders actually lay-up a boat lighter for evaluations purposes and to give prospective buyers test rides so they perform better. This is rumor and I don't spread it as fact, just as something I've heard.
Any Comments?
RTJas.

[Slick]

Try going a couple seasons without a boat and you'll be begging for a jet, v-drive, I/O, outboard or whatever else you can get your hands on.
I wish I had RD's problem, too.
In a perfect world in the not so far off distant future I'll have my little jet boat to haul the kids around all day and a 24'-26' Cat (w/twin outboards) to haul the mail with the wife. They are expensive to rebuild but it do take a lot to get to that point.
As far as ***boat goes, I figure they're just abiding by the Golden Rule "Them with the gold makes the rules", and the Mfrs. supplies the gold.
Just couldn't stay out of this one.
Slick

[RiverDave2]

Originally posted by RiverToysJas:
You do have a fine arrangement, and for the record I've never claimed more than 68 and that was GPS confirmed, but under rather poor conditions. I do think that under near perfect conditions, I can hit 70. Remember, I'm not even running hearders! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif But if want to go 72, ride with HB! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RTJas
I'm just messin with you Jason.. 68 is still haulin balls though, and I want to go for a ride. BTW what's a hearder? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD

[boatnam2]

it's just a sign of the times,i mean iv'e been reading about 21ft jets and i/o's in ***boat for the last 8 years shit it gets old.its all just an advertisment for the mfg's.i dont know how many stories you can read about a 21ft boat with a big block doing 60mph.seems like almost every issue.if nothing changed i dont need to know about it.im all about hearing about a new boat and making it better then the rest,i might not be able to do it but i like reading about someone that can.i love reading about resto's to.i like to hear about a new boat were somone done something different than the rest.i like to hear about parts that work great on boats.i like to hear how to make my boat last longer.but if you want to run a mag that stay's alive selling advertisement then you better be gearing it to the guys spending the most money which are the same guys that are buying the bigger boats.

[HBjet]

See Boatnam, it's guys like you who are doing this. First you steal our Hot Boat mag articles and pictures, then you chop up our river and Havasu. IT's never going to stop is it? Just go bigger and bigger... You with your new Lavey.
PS, when can I go for a ride, thanks...
HBjet http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

[boatnam2]

hb,i told andy to call me so we can all set up a trip for a little test and tune since he talk's to you guys all the time. but still waiting for hiom to call.doing the motocross thing this weekend,heading to river next week to look at mobile homes,then we can run it maybe his boat will be running by then.i dont mind driving to castaic if thats were everyone wants to go,but that no speed zone at smellssomemore will hold that ultra just fine.

[RiverToysJas]

Damn-it Andy - CALL JIM ALREADY! OR Randy or I will!!!! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RTJas

[MrHavasuCat]

Rivertoysjas,
My last boat was already layed up before we knew ***boat was going to take it for an evaluation. DCB had recieved an invite from ***boat for an outboard powered boat for their "outboard shootout". DCB asked me if I would like them to use my boat and I accepted. My boat was also used for the L.A. boat show and it was no different than any other Mach 26 as far as layup and quality are concerned.

[RiverDave2]

Originally posted by boatnam2:
hb,i told andy to call me so we can all set up a trip for a little test and tune since he talk's to you guys all the time. but still waiting for hiom to call.doing the motocross thing this weekend,heading to river next week to look at mobile homes,then we can run it maybe his boat will be running by then.i dont mind driving to castaic if thats were everyone wants to go,but that no speed zone at smellssomemore will hold that ultra just fine.
Boatnam, there isn't going to be a river next weekend.... There dropping the water 10' Jan 7-11th.. Just figured I'd let ya know..
If your going to parker on that weekend I'll go on the next test and tune.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif Seriously though Castaic?
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave2 (edited January 04, 2002).]

[1quickjet]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RiverToysJas:
[b]
[This message has been edited by 1quickjet (edited January 04, 2002).]

[LVjetboy]

Question: HBM = advertiser money driven or subscriber money driven? Maybe the focus should be less on new boat evaluations and more on what us subscribers actually WANT to read about? After all, what's a magazine w/o subscribers?? What a concept.
Maybe we should all vote with our feet.
My guess is...they have no competition and know we're a captive audience. So they can afford to IGNORE our interests while generating more profit. Just a bunch of sheep...baaaahahah. Throw in a tech article bone here and there to appease the masses.
Oh, I'm sorry, we just HAVE to cater to the big boys because THEIR builders place ads in our mag to generate more PROFIT. BS! What ever happened to backbone and originality? Last I knew, those concepts actually make a difference. Does HB have SO much competition in the Hot Boat magazine market that they can't afford to be unique? I don't think so. Where's the Hot Rod equivalent in the boating world? Certainly not with Hot Boat Magazine.
Even if I had 70k to spend on a boat I wouldn't buy one of those yachts.
BTW, Hot Boat = small, big engine, custom lake boats with owners who's hobby is to fix them up and dream of how to make them faster. Jet drive, O/B, V-drive, prop, makes no difference. Classic, new, used...again, makes no difference. My jet is a 1991, not necessarily new, certainly not a classic, but most would agree: a custom hot boat.
On the other hand, 28 foot multidrive yachts that cost more than a house and include sink and shitter, are boring to me and many others who post here. I do not look longingly at those multiengine cats and deep V's and wish I had one...eagarly devoring each article just in case. Anyone else with me on this one? I skip those pages like I'd skip reading about a multiengine land cruiser to flip to an article about a custom Vette. Guys buying those usually don't even work on there own stuff, let alone tune their own ignition or choose a new fuel pump, just pay someone else to worry about details. Those that do are in the subscription minority...just check your own readers surveys...if that means anything.
Bobbye Kenyon's "Hot Sheet"...boring. Results from the latest offshore races...nice air shots...otherwise who cares? They are not my hobby, custom Hot Boats are. Now a tech article on a 100 mph jet or V-drive with engine dyno results...yes! I'd read that article word for word.
So I'd suggest listening to the majority of your subscribers and get back to your roots.
Like that will ever happen http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif
Finally, the jet boat regatta? Like others posting here, didn't hear about it until it was over. I also called Joker's Wild wondering why no more jet rallies and got same response. Not that I believe the jet regatta response has ANYTHING to do with Hot Boat Magazine's decline.
Meanwhile, jet boaters on their own are organizing great rallies...who could figure?
A truly awesome Hot Boat magazine is just around the corner...will anyone step to the plate? Greg has received many great suggestions for improvements and articles...when will we see them?
Sincerely,
jer
[This message has been edited by LVjetboy (edited January 06, 2002).]

[ChetCapoli]

hey jer,
i seem to recall the word "vain" mentioned at one time or another.... Guys in glass houses shouldnt throw stones they say.(sorry couldnt resist)
cheers http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
BTW, If interested i think i can get a copy of an aggressor impeller chart for ya.

[flat broke]

Originally posted by ChetCapoli:
hey jer,
i seem to recall the word "vain" mentioned at one time or another.... Guys in glass houses shouldnt throw stones they say.(sorry couldnt resist)
cheers http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
BTW, If interested i think i can get a copy of an aggressor impeller chart for ya.
Huh?

[RiverToysJas]

Originally posted by LVjetboy:
On the other hand, 28 foot multidrive yachts that cost more than a house and include sink and shitter, are boring to me and many others who post here. I do not look longingly at those multiengine cats and deep V's and wish I had one...eagarly devoring each article just in case. Anyone else with me on this one?
I'm with you on that one. I don't plan to ever own a boat bigger than 24'. I told this to a friend of mine who's a Havasu regular and into off-shore boats. He acted like I was from Mars or something. I like smaller boats, I like low-profile boats. If I can touch the water in a turn or even in a straight line, like I can now, all the better!
As for a Jet Regatta......I don't think I'm out of line to announce that Rivertoys.com & Liquidaddiction.net are working together to put together a "Classic Boat Beach Bash". Mainly jets, there's no rule though & everyone IS welcome. The tentative date is Aug 10-11 and tentative location is the Colorado River south of Laughlin (all things are subject to change - I'm jumping the gun by even bringing it up but I want you guys to know it's in the works. Ideas or questions can be sent to me directly, jason@rivertoys.com or Chris at admin@liquidaddiction.net. Look for an official announcement in the next month or so. I'll also add a thread to the Rivertoys message board about this event.
RTJas http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by RiverToysJas (edited January 06, 2002).]

[LVjetboy]

RTJ, thanks for the heads up! Maybe an annual event starting with WWF I, you know, just to balance out the BBS thingy? Just kidding...
Hi Chet. Dave told me he didn't have charts and just to go with the next size up. So that's how I was going to program it. But if you can get me a chart that'd be cool. I have a beta version that doesn't require excel (programmed in VB6) just working out bugs, so would like to put Aggressor in before first release.
Thanks,
jer

[1quickjet]

I couldn't have said it better LVJteboy. I did mention the same point in an earlier post on this thread, but I will say it again. I too would much rather read about a custom, home built and rigged 100+ flat, than a triple engine Fountain. Mostly because those guys with the Fountains don't wrench on their ride, they just fork over the cash. Many custom "real" lake rods (small jets, flats, etc.) have owner-assembled engines. Thats cool. Those big boats all are the same anyway. The only thing that sets them apart is slightly different graphics and their choice of guage bezel color. Real custom.

[RiverToysJas]

HBJet & I have also started planning the Tech & How-To section on rivertoys. The icon has been built and placed. We'll all have to work together to build the content.
RTJas

[future boater]

granted i am not currently a boat owner, nor have i ever been a subscriber until now. what i did do was buy one everymonth off the shelf. i lost interest for this same reason. heres my point. WHY cant ***boat come out with a quarterly edition of what we are looking to see. they have all the resources to do it, they have all of our attention.i have a hard time beleiving that they wouldnt have enough material for it.i cant think of a person that wouldnt want there boat in the mag. do you guys?in hot boats eyes they probably dont care for my opinion for the fact that i am not a current boat onwer, and when i do buy one next fall its not going to be a boat that is longer than 21 ft.

[Kwicherbichen]

Maybe (BIG MAYBE) if Hot Boat pays close enough attention to this thread they will compromise and give us a quarterly "River Boat" issue. I doubt it though. At best it would be 1 issue per year. Face it, business is driven by Dollar$ & Cent$ therefore it makes more sense to bring in more dollars.
Also, the truth of the matter is, Flint Publishing doesn't give two shits about any of us or what we want. They are in business to make money, not friends.
It is times like these that emerging markets are formed. Time for a new magazine? Just a thought..........

[DEL51]

LVjetboy, Excellant response!They do not edit their reader rides or tech forums. So many mistakes, means, someone who can't tell the difference between a 23 daytona and a drag hydro is doing the article reviews.I was hoping Family and Performance Boating would offer some competition.I subscribed for a year and decided not renew.The guys putting that mag together all had a hot rodding background.They love those huge boats and outboards.I did not see one custom jet or v-drive, nothing on that type of propulsion, and i saw no indication that they would were going to.I keep getting subscription renewel forms that I toss in the garbage.QUESTION FOR ALL. If car magazines can run older vehicles that are no longer sold to the public,Where is their revenue coming from? I think it is the aftermarket parts manufacturers,the subscription fees,and parts distributors.Most of these are for V-8 engines, the most used engine for our hobby aside from outboards.I call on jegs,Summit,and others for my boat engine parts yet have never seen these companies advertise in hot boat or family/perf boating.These same companies will have special ads for magazines dedicated to one make,i.e.super chevy.They will show part selection only for those engines in their ads. Why couldn't they do that with Hot Boat? Maybe Greg has an answer.Thanks,DEL51

[flat broke]

Originally posted by DEL51:
QUESTION FOR ALL. If car magazines can run older vehicles that are no longer sold to the public,Where is their revenue coming from? I think it is the aftermarket parts manufacturers,the subscription fees,and parts distributors.Most of these are for V-8 engines, the most used engine for our hobby aside from outboards.I call on jegs,Summit,and others for my boat engine parts yet have never seen these companies advertise in hot boat or family/perf boating.These same companies will have special ads for magazines dedicated to one make,i.e.super chevy.They will show part selection only for those engines in their ads. Why couldn't they do that with Hot Boat? Maybe Greg has an answer.Thanks,DEL51
I could surmise the answer... Hot Boat's marketing department is shit sorry. The boat manufacturers come to them so they don't have to worry about generating other leads. Take a company like Edelbrock; their monthly advertising budget probably goes beyond what a lot of custom boat manufacturers spend in an entire year. That being said, you can bet that there are a lot of publications soliciting ad space to Edelbrock. I doubt that Flynt Publishing is one of them. You would think that the advertising money of the Mr.Gasket empire, GM performance division, MSD, Summit, Jegs, so on and so fourth would be something that a magazine might be interested in.
In the case of Hot Boat I'm really starting to feel that the motto is "the highest return with the absolute least investment(both in cash and resources). If HB were truly motivated to put out a better and more investment worthy product, they could use the stats from the boards to sell aftermarket equip manufacturers on ad space. Of course that would mean they might have to cater to our segment and since that requires extra effort, it's not going to happen. It all boils down to the return one sees on his/her investment of time and resources. And for producing a pretty lackluster product (low investment) HB sees a pretty decent return. To be completely honest, the only thing of value I have seen from HB in a long time is this board.
While we bitch and moan about what Hot Boat doesn't do, we fail to realize that we have the tools to provide for ourselves what they wont. If you have posted on this thread, I am willing to bet that you have knowledge about something that someone else here doesn't. How hard would it be for you to take the time and do a detailed writeup with pictures? Then all you have to do is email someone like Jason or myself, or any of the other individuals that run sites dedicated to the boats we love, and your info can be viewed by ANYONE, ANYWHERE. If every person on this board wrote one unique piece you would have at least a year worth of Hot Boat articles. If you own a shop, you ought to think very strongly about this type of stuff. Look at the amount of exposure you get when you place an ad with HB. In contrast, think of how much exosure (and good word of mouth press) you would receive by doing an article for a page that is frequented by the truest representation of your market. I don't know what HB charges for ad space, but I can bet its definitely more than the time it would take you to bang out a decent article and have it posted on any one or all of many quality level sites.
I'll step off the soapbox for now, but remember. If you want something, and no-one sells it, you're left with only one alternative... make it yourself.
Just my .02...okay maybe a little more than .02,
Chris
[This message has been edited by flat broke (edited January 07, 2002).]

[RiverDave2]

Ok so let me get this straight..
You guys are pissed becuase ***boat doesn't do more right ups on Jet Boats, but YOU ARE ALL currently aware that the jet boat Market is shrinking..
A couple of questions..
Why is the Market Shrinking? Not enough customers. So is the lack of customers from the lack of write ups? or the lack of write ups from the lack of customers?
Bottomline, Props Outnumber jets as far as new boats built (I'm guessing here) about 50:1 (I'm being generous on the jet side) so YES they do appease the masses buy doing articles on what people are buying.
I must've read 6 times in this thread alone that if they don't do this I'm going to cancel my subscription... WELL if they started focusing in primarilly on jets I'D DEFINATELY cancel mine.. Being that the prop guys are on the right side of the 50:1 which one do you think there going to go with? It's not worth getting pissed about, but in all honesty if they took your guys's advice they'd go out of business then THERE WOULDN'T BE A MAGAZINE or a website etc..
Figure out why the market is shrinking and cure that, and all the rest of the problems take care of themselves..
Ok now... To the point of what I was saying.. All you guys with the 20 Year Old Jet Boats.. Sell them off and go buy new ones. You've just done your part to increase the market, and probably got some young guy/girl (never now nowadays) into boating, etc... etc... etc... Soon enough Jet boats will reign more popular etc... etc.... Then the magazine will right more articles etc... etc... And we'll be looking for an alternative fuel source becuase the jets burned all the petroleum.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave2 (edited January 07, 2002).]

[rivercrazy]

RD's got a good point. Sell the old boats and buy a new jet boat. That's what I did a few years ago. I hate the payment though.
Its all about the $$$ of the advertisers.
I won't cancel my subscription. My wife thinks I buy it for the bikini girls anyway. hehe

[DEL51]

Flat Broke,I agree with you on your post,especially the article writing.I disagree with you rivedave2. I thought Hot Boat was for all performance boaters.I am not asking for a magazine dedicated to jets or v-drives, just some quality,in depth articles.My previuos post,did you read it?, showed an example of how car magazines are able to produce revenue without write ups on new vehicles.Whether you buy a new I/O or have an old v-drive,the engine technology applies to both. I enjoy reading about the new stuff but would appreciate some better coverage on our interests. I did not say I intend to cancel my subscription and I appreciate the web sevice they provide.I understand it is not a perfect world.I laugh at your humor about burning up all the fuel,you should read the post about the sierra club.I will try to get in contact with some of the new web sites about posting an article,the kind I would like to see in hot boat.I have access to an engine builder that is currently working on a new engine called the ALLSTAR.This engine is an aluminum v-8 displacing 708 cubic inches that has the capability of 998 cu in.I will try to do a write up and see if they would post it.I could write more on my personal projects,although Iam not an expert and that is where magazine writers have a huge edge.They have access to boating experts that can divulge detailed information we true enthusiasts really enjoy.That is why Gregs posts get so much attention. If you read Hot Rod or Popular Hot Rodding, you understand the level of information regarding new and old technology I am referring to.What better way of introducing potential customers to the boating world than having articles for entry level performance.They can move up,eventially,to those big, fuel efficient, 28 ft cats when they understand more about the sport.I may do that someday when my income is compatable.In the meantime,I will continue my fun with a blown 572 gas guzzling bigblock jet.A V-drive may be my next boat,providing I can afford it.Thanks,DEL51

[RiverToysJas]

Originally posted by RiverDave2:
Ok so let me get this straight..
You guys are pissed becuase ***boat doesn't do more right ups on Jet Boats, but YOU ARE ALL currently aware that the jet boat Market is shrinking..
A couple of questions..
Why is the Market Shrinking? Not enough customers. So is the lack of customers from the lack of write ups? or the lack of write ups from the lack of customers?
RD, what jet market are you talking about, the new boat market? We are not talking about new boats. So why do you even bring that up? How's the market for 1932-1940 Ford cars (something else we're not talking about)? Shrinking? Sure compared to new cars, that market has been shrinking since, oh, 1941! Yet look at your local newstand....lots of magazines dedicated to them. I don't think you understand what we are talking about.
Another thing, you say you'd cancel your subscription if Hot Boat covered primarily jet boats or what most of the above people call "Hot Boats". So F'in what? The majority of people here are not suggesting Hot Boat do that. The majority are suggesting either another complete magazine dedicated to these boats, quarterly or otherwise. OR 4-6 pages in the current magazine with some projects based around these boats. YOU (and others who should be subscribing to Powerboat) can pretend those pages aren't even there and look right past them (like I do the Tunnel Boat racing coverage). If you believe this is unreasonable, you're entitled to your opinion and we can agree to disagree.
RTJas

[LVjetboy]

RiverDave, I can’t speak for everyone, but this thread has a common truth. Not so much “pissed off” as frustration with HBM continuing to ignore the majority of their readers wishes to cater to the new and yes big boat market. I don’t think any want to lose the magazine, just want and passionately believe it can and SHOULD be much better. HBM has some good stuff…it’s a matter of balance. Are there subscribers with 30’ Advantages interested in the latest poker run? Sure, but they are in the minority. Are there subscribers in the market for a new $101,457 Magic Cat? Sure, but my guess is they don’t represent the majority of dues-paying subscribers.
It’s NOT a prop vs. jet thing…it’s a small custom hot rod vs. 35’ Nordic poker run thing. It’s a 19’ over-the-edge killer stereo installation project vs. another review of “big, beefy densely padded offshore bolsters and well-placed drink holders” kinda thing. I’d be perfectly happy with a balance of prop, jet and outboard articles as long as they were small custom Hot Boats with plenty of technical depth.
New boat performance evaluations do very little for me. All buy new jets? Even if we all entered the new boat market this year and bought new boats, guess what? The next year and many to follow we’d all be back in the how-do-I-customize-and-upgrade-the-boat-I-already-got market.
Going out of business? An easily believable justification for business as usual. As Flat Broke voiced quite well, marketing has options, and other approaches ARE doable. Time to listen to subscribers and make a well-planned transition. What’s the chances of Hot Rod doing a performance evaluation of the new $72,000 Mercedes-Benz G500, or the 2003 Cadillac CTS? Not likely, their reader’s care about customizing the ride they drive. Yet somehow Hot Rod survives? They have a different marketing approach.
As for this web site and board…nice. But if gone tomorrow I can guarantee you others are ready and more than willing to take it’s place.
jer

[RiverDave2]

I'll try to clarify my posts a little more as I think I gave off the wrong "vibe."
I've noticed on more then one occasion where people have said "If ***boat doesn't direct more attention towards jets I will cancel my subscription." Shortly after that there is the never failing "Yeah look at the jet section, it's the biggest one on the board" (Which somehow relates in proportion to subscribers..) I.E. Saying that there are more jet subscribers then props or something.
Then after that follows with more criticism of the magazine about how they don't know what's good for them, and if they were really smart they'd divert more attention away from what is making them money, to something that makes them less money.
I'm dying to hear the question that people seem to ask boatbuilders all the time for some unknown reason.. "Is the only reason there in this business is to make money?" The Answer is yes!!
You guys are coming around on the wrong end.. If you really wanted to help the "jet cause" you should all go and buy new jet boats.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif That way you've boosted the sales of jets, brought back prosperity to the builders, and developed a market in which the builders will seek to fill. With that comes reviews etc.. etc.. etc... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
As far as comparing ***boat to HotRod magazine or something? ***boat (in my opinion) would compare more to Car And Driver. They do ALOT of evaluation tests, on a WIDE VARIETY of boats. Everything from the Hyundai's to the Ferrari's if ya know what I mean.. Car and Driver will do there "Blast from the past" (20 year old jet in ***boat's Case) stories as well, but it's primarilly focussed on things being made currently as is ***boat. The things currently being made are Props hence the coverage.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
So basically we just went around in a couple of big circles with no solution to the current dilemna at hand EXCEPT! To do it yourself!! Whatcha Say Jason? I'm down to do this.. Meet up twice a month go test someones boat give the "Honest" review +'s and -'s etc.. etc.. Put it up on Rivertoys and HavasuBarney kinda dealio? We can start with whomever you like.. Andy? HBJet? Myself? Get the digi camera's, GPS's and the note pad and lets go to town! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
I think Article #1 should definately be Andy's Ultra. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif (That should be HotRod enough for most eh?)
RD

[future boater]

i think that there is more to teting a boat then just getting in it. like insrance sh!t.
i dont think andy would be very happy with you guys if you goofed up at 100.im not insulting anyones riving abilities. i'm not crying for a new mag, i understand that one needs to deal with progress and thats what alot of the new(larger) boats are. its the same way with harley mags like street chopper. all the spreads are cutom built aftermarket bikes(pure steel,paul yaffee,exile,.etc.) i would just like to see more one-off trick shit,i dont even care how big it is. that in my opinion, is what a hot boat is.

[RiverDave2]

I don't see why it couldn't be a run what you brung kinda dealio.. BTW if something got goofy at 100 Andy would be my last concern..
RD

[HBjet]

I was looking at a Truckin mag today, and they mostly have all custom write-ups and sometimes here and there go through a eval of Dodge, Ford and Chevy. How do they do it? All the custom shops, aftermarket parts and shows. To me Hot Boat was a lot like that when it first started but with as many new boats as custom ones. I wouldn't compare Car and Driver with Hot Boat. RiverDave, you said comparing Hyundai's and Ferrari's, well to me that is like comparing a 22' Bayliner and a 25' Daytona. There not in the same league. Hot boat to me is a PowerBoat mag with girls in bikinis and more pictures. That's about it. I wonder how many people with a Fountain, Mach34, 35' Nordic, and Skaters actually subscribe to Hot Boat. I'd have to say not many. I like my Hot Boat, but it's not exciting anymore. If there was a "Blast to the Past" or "Going back to the Root" section in everyother issue with the type of Hot Boats that got this very mag started in the first place, everyone of use would have a different opinion. Like you said to me RD, you thought jets were only 55 mph boats until you met a few of us. Well, in those older Hot Boat mags, you would see back in 1989, there were 100 mph plus turn key jets for under 30k. In 1997 or 1998, you could buy a 19' California Performance Gullwing hull, any color gelcoat, full interior, well built motor and pump and do 90+mph all for under 30k. To me thats a Hot Boat for the jet market. You don't see any 21' I/O's doing 90+ for that kind of price, actually, for even under 40k.
HBjet

[RiverToysJas]

Originally posted by RiverDave2:
So basically we just went around in a couple of big circles with no solution to the current dilemna at hand EXCEPT! To do it yourself!! Whatcha Say Jason?
I've replied to your e-mail but I'd like to say here that there has been some solution. HBJet, Chris from LiquidAddiction.net and myself are all working together to build a place on the internet where people can upload their own projects and write-ups. Do-it-yourselfers and shops will be welcome to send in their projects. The ball is already rolling on this, as I announced above.
I wasn't refering to Hot Rod, but more Street Rodder or Rod & Custom type magazines. I agree with HB, I have never seen ***boat evaluate a Bayliner, SeaRay, or other comparable cookie-cutter boat - not even a Baja that I can remember. Now I think if they are evaluating 36'+ boats, it's only a matter of time before we see Fountains, Scarabs and Cigarettes. I think Hot Boat is a good new custom boat magazine. If someone, esp a west coaster, wants a new boat. This is the magazine to get - no doubt about it! It's not geared for the older aftermarket boats. There currently is not a magazine for that.
I'd really like to see an official reply from Hot Boat on this issue. This IS their board after all. Someone official must be following this thread. Even just a yeah we hear you OR you're all out of line, get lost! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
RTJas http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Bense468]

Yeah that was me riverdave that said look at the jet boat fourm. That does not mean I said dedicate the WHOLE hot boat mag to jets. If you read back I said hot boat's. My opinion of a hot boat is an 18-20 footer with lots of balls and cool rigging, gel coat whatever. Does not matter what the propulsion device is. I suggested a couple of pages in hot boat to reafers rides, and 18 footer tech stuff. I just want to know how many of these guys out there with these 30 footers are bolting these blowers on themselves. Generally speaking they don't know shit. So why are there tech articals on them. So they know what makes them go faster and can point to the magazine say do this to my boat and here is a check or my credit card. I don't think that is Hot boating if you ask me. I also never said I would really cancel my subscription. I just get it everymonth read the jet tech and maybe the other tech stuff, skip past all the huge boats and huge $$$ amounts and look at the classifieds and the magazine gets set down never to be opened again. I really enjoy reading the hot boat mags from back in the day. I thought it would be cool to save mine but I don't even read them. If there were a few pages or someone else created a magazine dedicated to this I would be there in a second and pick up the hot boat after I read cover to cover on that other one.

[1quickjet]

I don't have the time to type a detailed response, so i will try to hit just one point where RD may have misunderstood us. I (and I am sure others as well) wasn't just referring to jets. Just like someone else said, I like the one-off "true" custom stuff. I don't care if it is a jet (although they may be my preference) or not. I like 'em small and big on HP. I even appreciate a trick outboard now and then. In fact, in the boat trader there is an old 19' Spectra with a built motor, trick exhaust and an I/O hanging off the back. I would love to see more of that boat than a black and white thumbnail. Why? Because I like Spectras, its custom, and appears fast and different. I can't remember the last time I saw a built I/O 19' Spectra. That is a lake rod I would read about. So like some have already said, its not just a jet vs prop thing, even though it just happens to be on this page. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif

[TaylorLP20]

Del 51& FlatBroke, You are right on the money! Take a look at the Jan. issue of Rod & Custom.A few months back they had pix of 50 or so readers rides, then asked readers to vote on which ones should come back for a readers rides shootout. The results are in the Jan. issue. This would be a great idea! They have really turned this mag around! They have reprints of old articles, stories about rodding & custom pioneers, and guess what? No advertising for any new cars. I will never own a rod or custom (hell, I can barely afford the damn boat)
but I subscribed to this mag because it's just plain good reading. There is lots of advertising from the usual parts suppliers, and from makers of trick goodies galore. I urge any of you guys that are thinking about putting out an internet mag to take a look at at least one issue. I think a mag similar to this for boats would be the best thing since sliced bread!
I too subscribed to Family & Performance Boats, because it looked like they were headed in the right direction. These guys were all hotrodders but it sure looks like they forgot their roots. I cancelled them, and let my Hot Boat subscription lapse as well. The free T-shirt still looks good though.
I don't think we will ever see the mag most of us really want, but Hot Boat should be able to give us at least a few pages a month to keep us happy.
The bottom line is that Larry Flynt doesn't give a shit about anything except pussy & money. And the only reason he cares about pussy is because it makes him money.
One more thing. Does anyone know what other magazines LFP puts out besides Hot Boat & the pussy mags?

[572Daytona]

Here is a link to some of the other magazines the LFP publishes: http://www.publist.com/search/search.asp?Pub=lfp&SearchType=Adv
When did LFP buy ***boat? Who owned them before LFP? I agree that there is too much focus on new boats and it seems that almost all boating magazine cater to that market, I guess that is where the advertising $$$ are. Didn't ***boat conduct a survey of what boats their readers had a few years back? Does anybody have the results of that survey, I remember sending in my comment card. I was in the market for a new jet boat recently and I looked back through my 10years of so of old Hot Boat magazines and only saw 1 review that was close to what I was looking for, it was a blown 21' Daytona that was reviewed in 1996 I believe. I then called an Eliminator dealer here in Georgia and visited one in New Hampshire when I was on vacation and neither were very interested in configuring a jet for me. I finally ended up finding a used one in the Boat Trader and flying out to San Diego to purchase it. I think they would sell more jetboats if more dealers had them on the floor, I've had several offers to buy mine because you just don't see many here on the East Coast. But who knows, if Mercury continues to raise the price on I/O's and OB's like they've been doing and if manufacturers see people shelling out almost $30,000 for the SeaDoo Islandia "the first-ever jet-powered deck boat" according to SeaDoo's web site maybe they we come back in popularity

[TaylorLP20]

572, Thanks for the link.
Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience with the dealers. What ever happened to the customer is always right? This may be the answer to the reason that the real jet boat market is shrinking. I'm sure that if you went to your local Chevy dealer the would sell, or at least order you a car with the options you want.
30K for a sea don't? I think not.
The first jet powered deck boat? I don't think so.
I can't wait to run into one of these on the lake(if they don't run into me first) so I can humble them properly!
TLP

[HBjet]

Originally posted by 572Daytona:
SeaDoo Islandia "the first-ever jet-powered deck boat" according to SeaDoo's web site maybe they we come back in popularity
No Way! Maybe the first ever deck waverunner.
Check this out.
http://www.jmmarine.com/images/deck_06.jpg
http://www.jmmarine.com/images/deck_04.jpg
http://www.jmmarine.com/images/deck_08.jpg
If you looking for more info... http://www.jmmarine.com
HBjet

[572Daytona]

You don't need to tell me about the other deck boats, tell SeaDoo and tell the manufacturers to market their Jet Boats on this side of the Mississippi. I still remember when SeaDoo first came out with the twin engine speedster, one of the Boat Magazines had it on the cover with a quote of "Fastest Jetboat Ever" Hell, my 20yr old Tahiti was faster than that thing.

[jim lee]

You want different "Do it yourself" coverage. From poeople just like yourselves? HB isn't doing the trick for you? C'mon!
The town is being besieged by barbarians with clubs and stones. Flat Broke is -TRYING- as hard as he can, to hand out fully charged Phasers!
If everyone would sit down and put 1/2 the effort into a project writup, that was put into this forum, then post the result on the net. Or, even pass it on to Flat Broke and let him post it. Within a Month, we'd have so many articals to read, we'd not have time to post at all!
Stop worrying about ***boat. Its not your magazine! We all have the tools right here in front of us to create something, way WAY better and more dynamic than any publishing company could ever DREAM of! Its so simple!
The dinosaur will NOT go in the direction you want it to. Stop flogging it, it doesn't notice anyway. Leave it behind and create your own writups for each other.
Let Flat Broke help you. I think He's right on this one. (I'm not saying he's allways right, but on this one..)
And this bit I read.
-----------------------
I could write more on my personal projects,although I am not an expert and that is where magazine writers have a huge edge.They have access to boating experts that can divulge detailed information we true enthusiasts really enjoy.That is why Gregs posts get so much attention. If you read Hot Rod or Popular Hot Rodding, you understand the level of information...
-----------------------
I'm sorry, this is a TOTAL CROCK! You don't have to be some pro to write an artical. Sheesh, I'm damn near illiterate and I write them. I have people e-mailing me all the time saying how much they enjoyed them. Spellcheck and proofreading by friends will make nearly anything readable. Were not trying to write for writing sake. We're just trying to share info. and entertain.
Sorry, lost me cool there. I just can't stand it when someone tells me that something can only be done "By the Pros".
We can all do this. We should. It would be FUN!
Believe me.
-jim lee
[This message has been edited by jim lee (edited January 07, 2002).]

[Kwicherbichen]

Thanks for the heads up on the "Worlds first jet-powered deckboat" thing. Checked out the site myself, "Lucy, you got some splain'in to do". I let John know and we'll see where it goes. I don't think he'll really trip over their claim but a ruckus could generate free advertising in the way of an article. Who knows?
Brian

[LVjetboy]

Oh come on, why can't we flog the dinosaur just a little more? It's fun and he really deserves it.

[greg shoemaker]

I will make a point to call Brett at Hot Boat today and get some input from him because I almost positive no one from Hot Boat reads this forum. Takea look at this forum we have 15to 20 people making all the comments. When HB did its survey on jet boat owners guess what the jets had the smallest response. At one time they were ready to cancel the tech articles due to lack of particapation.I know it is very flustrsting but another publacation devoted just to jets would need a lot of help from the mfgs. for advertising $$$$$ and the intrest is just not there.Our best bet would be a web site just devote to our needs.I own a jet boat I like jet boats and whatever I can do to make it work I will be more than happy to help.As far as being termed a pro in the industry . The way I look at it is that when I got started in Jet boating I made my share of mistakes and all I'm doing is sharing my knowledge so you don't make the same mistakes that I made. Back in those days we did not have this type of forum to draw from. Greg

[Cas]

After reading through all of this, I can agree with a lot of you. Like Flat Broke mentioned, he and I discussed this very matter a few months ago. The cost to start another magazine is not very practical based on cost versus subscriptions. How many would you print up? Would you want to pay $10,000.00 for print set up for 200 magazines? A website is more logical, the expense is nothing compared to going to print.
On another thought, that Greg just touched on, is this is a relatively small group of people with an interest in jets. How many are here? 200? 300? 500? Even if it's 2000, that is not enough people for a publisher to alter a magazine for. It would be nice if HB could add 3 or 4 pages on jets but then they'd have to do it with many types of boats.
The suggestion about a quarterly is a good one. If HB still has all original issues, they already have a database for the original boat tests. I'd love to read performance tests on the boats we all have. Up until about 6 or 7 years ago, I had box full of Performance Boat Mag and HB from the late 70's and early 80's. They would be a great reference for me right now but due some circumstances, they're gone. How many of you out there still have some of those mags? With a little effort on your part, you could copy, scan, or do whatever to get Flat Broke or RTJ the info and they can the info to the rest of us. On top of that, we all can send info to them on current projects, test results, suggestions on How To's and lots of other stuff that others can learn from.
To me, it's a matter of put up or shut up. No matter what is done, there will always be someone to complain. Thing is, the ones that complain the loudest are usually the ones that do the least. I bet I'm gonna make a lot of friends with that statement but oh well, it's the truth!
so I'll shut up now
Steve
[This message has been edited by Cas (edited January 08, 2002).]

[Cas]

btw, hey Greg, Skip Gurney says hello.
He said it's been a long time but you should remember him. Record holder for ET and top speed for, at the time, Unblown Gas Jet.
Skip is probagbly going to make it to a get together here in No CA at the end of Aug, interested?

[572Daytona]

Steve, I have a lot of the old HB magazines and would be more than willing to assist in scanning them. Unfortunately thought that material is all copywrited and scanning them and posting them on a website could get you into some legal trouble.

[rivercrazy]

I think Greg has a great idea here. A web page attached to ***boat for jet boaters. I think it would be a great addition and would be willing to help in any way I'm capable of.

[LVjetboy]

I think there are a lot of great ideas floating here. And I also think a magazine devoted solely to jets would be a tough sell.
But a magazine devoted to small, <24' custom Hot Boats, along the lines of Hot Rod magazine, now that's an idea that would fly! Including jets, v-drives, i/o's and outboards, and any other drive that comes along. Not just jets.
I'm sure Cas is right about the cost and effort of starting a new magazine. That's why my dream is to see HBM listen to their subscribers and move in our direction.
As for the survey, I don't remember Hot Boat printing results. If Hot Boat doesn't read these forums, what does that say about their interest in what we care about? Would be interesting to see entire results though...even if they contradict management's current marketing direction. I'd bet if you asked subscribers today if they'd like to see less big yachts and more small custom Hot Boats, you'd see a resounding YES! I'd bet a couple blenders of OS on that one. In fact, I dare them to put a survey online with the following questions:
1) Do you want to see more small <24' boat coverage?
2) Do you want to see less offshore and poker run coverage?
3) Do you want more technical articles and custom upgrage projects?
4) Do you want to see more babes?
I think we all know what the answers would be. To me, this issue is not about jets, it's about small custom Hot Boat coverage vs. big $$ Boat coverage, AND tech or custom upgrade project coverage vs. non-stop new boat performance evaluations.
As for web sites and such, I'd love to see the ideas people suggest here happen too. But I spend too much time on the computer as is and I still enjoy getting a magazine in the mail too...that's the point. I think many others would agree, they still want a good Hot Boat magazine to read in the uhmm, library...or at work http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif Why start a new magazine? Hot Boat Magazine HAS the resources and potential to be a much better publication, with way more interest to their readership, if they'd just listen to us.
Still attempting to flog the dino,
jer
[This message has been edited by LVjetboy (edited January 08, 2002).]

[RiverDave2]

Just gave me an interesting Idea Jer..
BTW I dunno if you ever caught it on the other threads, but thanks for helping me out! I'm still compiling lists and will get back to you shortly..
RD

[LVjetboy]

That's cool Dave. I'm always looking for new stuff...
Cheers!
jer

[572Daytona]

Originally posted by greg shoemaker:
When HB did its survey on jet boat owners guess what the jets had the smallest response. At one time they were ready to cancel the tech articles due to lack of particapation.
I just went back through my old issues and in the July 1997 Observer's Seat column some of the results from the survey were printed. Jets actually came in second, with I/Os getting 37%, Jets 29%, OB's 20% and Vdrives 10%. Someother interesting observations was the Reader Rides section was the most popular at 73% and 50% of the respondents wanted more coverage of jet and dragboat racing. I think one of the things that limited the popularity of the Jet Tech section is that people usually want an answer asap, which is where this board is great and I think the JetTech section will continue to decline in responses.

[rivercrazy]

Its funny. I've sent a few Jet Tech questions into ***boat. The last few were ignored.

[HBjet]

Originally posted by rivercrazy:
Its funny. I've sent a few Jet Tech questions into ***boat. The last few were ignored.
I don't think a question about how the cavatation in the pump is interfearing with your vodka on the rocks http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
HBjet

[greg shoemaker]

I talked to Brett Bayne today cncerning this matter and I do stand corrected on the jet response. Brett told me that he wanted to do an issue totally devoted to reader rides and it was voted down by the higher up. We also discussed the chance of doing evaluations on different types of old boats to give the entry level buyer an idea of what is good and bad in the used market. What to look for when buying aused boat pump, motor, interior, controls and any other flaws . All of these ideas were accepted at this level as good constructive ideas for future articles but Brett is not the final say so these ideas have to go to the next levels. I'll continue the quest and see what happens tommorrow. Wish me luck and I'll keep you posted.When it come to Drag Racing coverage Hot Boat has tried in the past to cover the races. The mag is done months in advance so coverage is usually months to print. Update to follow as soon as I get the word. Greg

[RiverToysJas]

Thanks Greg! That's very cool of you to take up our cause with Hot Boat.
If Larry himself wants to come to an OP6 event and see what it's all about, I'm sure we could make arrangements!!! j/k http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RTJas

[Bense468]

Yeah thanks greg. Well at least now we have someone in hot boat trying something for us. That is better then we had before. Hats off to greg.

[HBjet]

What about an OP6 event at Larry's pad? I'm sure Chestah Cheetah has some connection on getting us in there, or at least the Monkey would.
HBjet

[rivercrazy]

I thought vodka would flow better through the intake! LOL
Greg. You da man. We really appreciate all your efforts!

[RiverDave2]

Originally posted by RiverToysJas:
Thanks Greg! That's very cool of you to take up our cause with Hot Boat.
If Larry himself wants to come to an OP6 event and see what it's all about, I'm sure we could make arrangements!!! j/k http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RTJas
Are you going to install wheel chair access on your boat?
RD

[Slick]

I think it's pretty safe to assume that if Larry Flint came to an OP6 event, he'd probably go out and buy his own boat.

[RiverDave2]

I think he'd buy the river.. It's for sale ya know! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD

[LVjetboy]

Thanks Greg! At least we have a voice with horsepower on our side fighting for the cause. I appreciate your spending time on this Greg.
Suspending dino flog UFN
jer

[Chestah Cheetah]

All of you are losing sight of the real problem here. The content that Hot Boat is really missing is not info on custom jet boats, but spec sheets on the hot boat models featured (36-24-28??)...........not pump rebuild tech articles, but more how to's on untying a bikini top............not "Shop Tour" columns, but "Dressing Room Antics" with playful pillow fights...........catch my drift? Anyone disagree? (go ahead, make yourself look like a jackass, he he he) http://plauder-smilies.de/biglaugh.gif
Originally posted by HBjet:
What about an OP6 event at Larry's pad? I'm sure Chestah Cheetah has some connection on getting us in there, or at least the Monkey would.HBjet
We'll I talked to Larry about Op6 and he said he was just too damn busy to make time for this kind of stuff at the present time. I offered to help (big mistake).......now he's got me doing all of his dirty work: "Chestah, hold the camera while I spank our centerfold", "Chestah, I want you to oil up these 36 ladies by noon for our annual Oil Wrestling Federation issue, and don't get cheap on the important areas", "Chestah, I need you to personally sleep in between MissJanuary and MissFebruary during the Vegas show to keep them from fighting" http://plauder-smilies.de/love/ladysman.gif , "Chestah, quit playing with that Hot Boat forum and get back to waxing our Vicious Vixen of the month while she whips you http://plauder-smilies.de/rough/zzwhip.gif .......you bad, bad boy you!"............I'm nothing but the porn kings lackie - life sucks! http://plauder-smilies.de/happy/biggrina.gif
Originally posted by RiverDave2:
I think he'd buy the river.. It's for sale ya know! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD
What's the problem Dave, having trouble keeping up with the payments? Must be rough owning the river huh? he he he

[Slick]

That explains it. Dave forgot to pay the water bill. No wonder the water level is down 10 feet.

[greg shoemaker]

Well I talked to the higher ups and the general opinion was to continue in the same direction the mfgs. are pushing us towards. The mfgs. seem to have a great impact on what the mag reflects and what you see is what they want. My sugeetion is to proceed in the direction of a web page and see if that will satify our needs. Greg

[froggystyle]

Thanks for the try Greg. I kind of figured that was the wave of the future.
Guys, if you want to see more coverage on the 18' jet boats, we need to start buying them! Make it profitable for the manufacturers to build one, and they may. If they build it, they will evaluate it. If everyone is pissed about the size of the boats at the river, don't buy a bigger boat...