Directional Jet Thruster?

[beached1]

A friend of mine gave me this brochure he picked up at a boat show a while back. It's from a company called Propulsion Dynamics. It's a fully hydraulic sytem with two vetical trim axes. Almost like if you had a Droop Snoot that adjusted up and down as well as your Place diverter. The exit nozzle size is adjustible also. It comes with this cool billet steering wheel with all button controls mounted in it. In fact the whole thing is machined billet instead of cast. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has one of these, and if they work. If they're still around etc. It sure looks cool but that doesn't mean it works well.

[spectras only]

I seem to remember an article with pictures on a similar system,that went even further with a variable nozzle to adjust flowrate.Anyone remember on this forum?Maybe RiverDave will get involved http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif

[Terrible Buddhist]

MAN How much would a deal like that go for?

[turbo]

I'm interested can you make nozzle adjustments under way.

[spectras only]

that was the idea behind it. I'm going to try to find that article.It goes a few years back ,so I have to go through a few mags http://free.***boat.net/ubb/eek.gif

[beached1]

According to the brochure everything can be adjusted on the fly. Fully hydraulic. The nozzle size can be adjusted. It has a discription that says to open it up for low end power and when you get on plane to close the nozzle size down for top speed. Another thing I forgot to mention is that the steering axis is up at the bowl. Which I would imagine would give you a much wider steering radius because the whole thing is moving. It would be like if you had a droop snoot that adjusted up and down and turned side to side and your place diverter just moved up and down. I haven't had time to call the number on the brochure yet but if anyone is interested, the number is 714-279-5005. If that doesn't work try using 949 as the area code some of the 714 area codes were changed a few years ago. Also, the address is 1802 W. Pomona Rd. Corona, CA 91720. If anyone does get a hold of them, please post the info you got from them on this thread or e-mail me at gerrit.costelow@attws.com. I would appreciate it. When I get a chance I'll take the brochure to my wifes office and I'll scan it and e-mail it to anyone who's interested. Gerrit

[flat broke]

If its in Corona its going to be 909 area code unless they have the old number forwarded to their current location. Also, juding by the address they are right there where Caliber1, Carrera, and Commander are located.

[riodog]

Call Mr. JET TECH, he knows everything

[beached1]

Flat broke,
Is is right around the 91 fwy and the Lincoln offramp? I see a Commander shop there that's right against the fwy. I go by there everyday to work. I'll check the area out.

[ULTRA28]

It was also known as the robo-jet. It never made it to the open market. It was designed by Dana of Product Welding, the same guy that builds all of my billet products. He made about five of them. In testing on a 21' bowrider with a stock pump, they managed to get a 14mph increase by simply bolting this system on, thats right 14mph on radar. I have been trying to talk him into putting them into production, but he says they are way too expensive to build, so the cost would be too high. He never sold a single one, he still has all of them sitting there collecting dust. I'm going to start pushing him again to see if we can get him to come up with a price.

[beached1]

14 MPH is a major increase for a bolt on part! Would he be interested in selling one of the five that's collecting dust? If he is, my e-mail is gerrit.costelow@attws.com

[ULTRA28]

He won't even sell one to me and I'm his biggest customer. He said there are too many parts on it that may wear out or break and we would be unable to get replacement parts for it. If I remember correctly he figured he would need to get about $5,000 each for these things to be able to put them into production. He said that no one was willing to pay that kind of money.

[rivercrazy]

It usually costs more than $5000 to get a 14mph increase. Maybe he is underestimating the market potential of the product if it really adds that much performance.

[flat broke]

I am not an advocate of what I am about to propose so take this with a grain of salt, but it probably doesn't have to be made from billet stock. I understand that he comes from a mill and machine background and thats why he is looking at high costs, just the raw materials would be expensive. BUT, as I am sure John has tried to tell him, the market potential for this product is huge as long as the enconomy holds up well enough that people continue to buy boats.
That being said, he could invest in castings of some maybe all of the major parts and dramatically lower his unit price. I'm guessing that he might be the type of guy that likes to know the quality of his product and feels he can only ensure that by building it himself. But thats not how $$ is made. What do you say John, forget making him build them.... take some $$ buy the rights to the design and put it into production. If it is that good, perhaps a company like Place, would buy the rights, and tool up for it. Think about this Ultra boats having exclusive rights to the unit. You would have a huge advantage over your competition... not that you already dont. But you could control who you sold to. Only use them on your boats and a controled amount of retail sales so that other mfgs don't buy up your edge. Of course everyone on this thread would have a crack at the demo units. ;-)
If I had the $$ and some time, I would make a serious go and trying to buy the rights and farm out the work, but I work in the VoIP space and am short on both of the above mentioned commodities.
Chris
Oh yeah, If he thinks there is no market for it, someone should be able to buy the rights CHEAP!

[RiverDave]

Well Spectra's only that hurt my feelings! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif however since the topic of discussion has entered what I do for a living I figured I would throw in my .04.
Ultra28, Tell the guys over at DANA that you no longer have to build expensive tooling or machine every part just to get prototypes as well as limited production. There are ways of generating Castings now with NO TOOLING (On a limited production bases) which enables people to put products like this on the market in limited quantity while still making some $$$$. It's done with RP Technologies that actually "Grow" patterns for investment casting etc... If he's interested drop me an e-mail and I'd be more then happy to go out there and show him how some of these new technologies work and final products etc... (That goes for you too Jon, if you have any crazy metal parts you want to make just let me know! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif )
RD

[RiverDave]

Well Spectra's only that hurt my feelings! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif however since the topic of discussion has entered what I do for a living I figured I would throw in my .04.
Ultra28, Tell the guys over at DANA that you no longer have to build expensive tooling or machine every part just to get prototypes as well as limited production. There are ways of generating Castings now with NO TOOLING (On a limited production bases) which enables people to put products like this on the market in limited quantity while still making some $$$$. It's done with RP Technologies that actually "Grow" patterns for investment casting etc... If he's interested drop me an e-mail and I'd be more then happy to go out there and show him how some of these new technologies work and final products etc... (That goes for you too Jon, if you have any crazy metal parts you want to make just let me know! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif )
RD

[spectras only]

Hey Riverdave,I really meant what I said about contacting you.That Dana piece looked real trick,and like John said ,it 's a very expensive piece,because of billet parts. If I remember well, it was Blue anodized or powder coated.You could get on making cheaper castings made and try to get this thing market it.Talk to John over opc6,maybe he can persuade the Dana guys to go ahead with it. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Chestah Cheetah]

If this piece of equipment really adds 14MPH, then it's worth the $$. When you think about it, it's probably less complex than a blower, less damamging to your motor, and all it is is a new way to direct your water flow. As far as using cheaper materials to build, this is still possible without compromising quality and durability.
Build a new one, get Hot Boat to install and test it, and watch the orders come in for $1995.00 a piece. Monkeys = Cheap labor.
What was the name of this product?

[flat broke]

Hey now, Lets not give away our hand and offer to pay 2k right up front guys. 8-) And as far as having Hot Boat test it... if it gave a 14 mph increase on a stock pump, the race guys would be all over it. They would log more data in a day that Hot Boat would come up with in a week. I know its a Hot Boat forum, but lets be real; unless it would mean you could put a jet on a 30' Daytona, you aren't going to see anything about it in HB

[Chestah Cheetah]

As far as the whole Hot Boat thing, that's just to sell the damn things, get them out, get people riled up about them. You have a point though, Hot Boat is big boys toys now. Well, if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Put me down for a 30' Daytona with twin 540's and twin BERK's.
That's something else: I have seen twin pump setups on Sea Doo jet boats, why not on bigger boats with big blocks? I know their powerpalnts are considerably smaller than ours and weigh a whole lot less, but why not. Yeah bigger boats are for bigger water, and jets don't work well in big water. Has anyone done this and I'm in the dark? Shit, I'm starting to sound like RD. "Why is the prop in the back of the outdrive?"

[ULTRA28]

I spent an hour on the phone with Dana this morning about this. He won't budge. He said it's not an issue of parts wearing out or breaking like I had thought. I asked why he doesn't make them available and he said there is not enough demand for it yet, I think there is something else going on that he isn't telling me. I told him how much it currently costs to get a 21' boat to gain 14mph and that even at $5,000 it would be worth it, he didn't want to here about it. He did deliver three units back when he first started this and says he hasn't heard anything negative back from the owners. He has five different colored ones, brand new at his shop that he won't part with. I'm trying to get him to let me do some testing this winter and maybe we'll do something together. I'll keep you posted.

[spectras only]

Chestah, the reason you don't see many big boats with two jets is economy.A 20 footer will use 20-25 gallons per hour at WOT.Two jets=50 GPH and maybe 10-15 MPH max gain in speed.Stern drives are more efficient in twin applications than jets.That's why you see boats over 26 feet with single engines and Hamilton jets with turbo diesels.

[flat broke]

Chestah,
Twin pumps are used in luxury sport yahts frequently. They aren't berks, but then again they arent BBC powered either. In regard to your 30' twin pump Daytona. Put simple, the boat would hardly move. This can be Illustrated by looking at a 21' Daytona where the pump is located in the center sponson. If you went to a bigger hull and twins, the intakes for the pump would be right in the middle of the channels in the bottom of the boat. The end result is even if you could move the thing, as soon as it started to climb on plane, The pumps would cavitate horribly due to the airated water in the channels. So the boat would drop off plane, then back on, then off, etc. Second issue, to move big boats, you typically see axial flow type pumps where the proplusion is volume not pressure dependent. Using two Berks, you might not generate enough torque to get the thing moving really well. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Chris

[Chestah Cheetah]

This has really piqued my interest. Especially when you don't get a straight answer and reason why it is not being produced. Of course there would be a market for it. I have a couple grand and a choice between this or a blower- I'm buying the nozzle. There must be a million advantages over other go fast bolt ons. Or just double your pleasure by getting both.
Ultra28, he told you that he delivered 3 units and did not hear anything negative. Did they give any positive feedback? On a new product like this, wouldn't they maybe give the customer a call and ask how it went? I would want to know how it did for different people in different boats.

[custom-cruiser]

Ok..Check it out last year I went to Montana for a little R&R and I met this guy who said he was building a new kind of jet pump he had some really good therory's on thrust (he was some kind of hydro engineer)but didn't know alot about boats,he didnt even know what a place diverter was but was designing his own jet pump! Any way the suction piece,bowl and nozzel are a whole new concept but similar to what you guys are talking about so if the Dana guys won't build this i'm sure this guy will, his web site is
marinejettech.com I think he just needs some advice and experience from some jetboaters to refine his product....

[flat broke]

Question for Ultra28,
Since you are in regular contact with Dana for rigging equipment, I was wondering what you know about their hulls. I have a 21' Daycruiser that I am building and to be honest when I pulled the floor up, I was a little depressed at the quality. Maybe the boat had been re-floored once already, but I kinda doubt it (there aren't that many people that are a glutton for that type of punishment).
If I were to call someone at Dana, who should I speak with that would know something about the hulls? Any info you could give me would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Chris

[Chestah Cheetah]

Flat Broke, I should have been more clear in my question: I actually imagined the motors and pumps installed in the left and right sponsons- not in the middle like the 21'. On a 30'- you would have room right? I do understand the fuel economy deal, but what about for racing.
Anyone heard of KaMeWa water jets? I have seen them used in megayacths usually with Lycoming Gas Turbines- now those need some serious HP to move. I think this same setup is used sometimes for high speed ferries.

[ULTRA28]

Dana from Product Welding is not associated with the company formerly known as Dana boats. I know there is a huge market for this product and I don't know why he is holding back. I am going to keep pushing the issue with him.

[riodog]

ultra, chester, flat, just fyi, system you are referring to, was very complex, as ultra so stated, EXPENSIVE,( $ from yesteryear), no indicators as to where the trim was set, and it took so long to get it set, you ran out of lake befor you got it right. This is from MR. JET TECH, he helped test the units. Dana had that address before Carrera.

[Jungle Boy]

At 142 bucks per MPH that is cheap, if it works. To gain 14 MPH with a motor it would normaly cost 1000 per MPH.