Beware all DNE customers

[wrightnow]

I think most of the board knows of DNE motors and the quality of motors he builds, I must warn eveyone of how DNE does business regarding his quoting and final billing.
I sat down with DNE and had Dave give me a quote regarding a re-build which I thought was a far price. It took 9 months to received my motor (5 months late) and I had payed what we had agreed upon. DNE build exacly what we had talked about 9 months earlyer, no change in the plan.
Well 2 month later after i had received my motor I received a copy of my final invoice and it was more than double what DNE had quoted me and all DNE could say was look it over. Over the 9 month build I was at DNE's shop many many times and never did DNE say anything about the motor cost doubling.
THIS IS NOT HOW YOU DO BUSINESS
Afer making a more than fair offer to settle the differance DNE is taking me to court, which will not be good for DNE, past DNE customer and myself.
Sorry to do this but I will be contacting past DNE customers and requiring them to show up in court to give their stories of how DNE has miss lead them into building a motor for one price and then charging another price.
DNE has done the many times in the past couple of years and it cannot continue..
Mark

[moneysucker]

I learned on my first motor build, (not DNE) Quote in writing. That is the only way you have legal action. And on that quote you have on there when you sign that all changes are to be in writing too. I had the same thing happen to me and the diference was 2 times the amount agreed upon and I was just a poor kid and that amount of money was hard to pull together in a short amount of time. Sorry to hear about this. Good luck.

[wrightnow]

Well after sending DNE another check and my offer to settle (which DNE declined) I spoke to a Attorney about this and was told to cancle the check file with the state of cal. (BAR) and that all changes from the quote must be approved in writing. No changes wher made, nothing verbal or on writing was ever coverd.
It's just a shame it comes down to this. The differance from what I offered and what DNE wanted was very small and i can't beleive we are going to courte over it. The Attorney fees just to file are more than the differance was.
Mark

[Shark In The Pond]

That is a shame ,hope it works out for you the "customer " but as we have all seen with this type of thread might have to get the popcorn ready could get ugly :eat: good luck .

[LVjetboy]

Sorry to hear about your problems Mark.
My quote was close to the final invoice, the difference because the original quote was for a 496 and I decided halfway thru to switch to a 540. Presto! $1800 more. I also went with some optional stuff like TBC coating not included in original quote. When I got the final invoice, I went thru comparing big ticket items against prices on the net...all checked out. Labor costs are a gray area, and Dave's not cheap, but the total hours seemed reasonable to me...and final labor cost compared well with oringinal quote once added work accounted for.
Sorry your experience was different. And the lawyer thing seems a bit overkill. But if you force? me to testify, I may just be a hostle witness. :D
jer

[Squirtin Thunder]

But if you force? me to testify, I may just be a hostle witness. :D
jer
No way !!!!

[77468sleekcraft]

DUDE I FEEL YOUR PAIN IVE GONE THROUGH IT ALSO ACCEPT IT WAS WITH MY CAR MOTER ,MY ORDEAL LASTED ABOUT 2 YEARS WITH A BOUNCH OF MY $$$$$$ ALREADY IN THERE HANDS I WAS AT THERE MERCY ,I HAD THE GUY BUILDING MY CAR SAYING HE NEEDED THE MOTOR BEFORE HE WOULD GET GOING AND THE GUY BUILDING MY MOTOR SAYING HE WANTED THE CAR READY BEFORE HE WOULD GET TO WORK .GOD IT WAS A MESS AND WHEN THEY HAVE YOUR MONEY AND YOUR SHIT IT MAKES IT A LITTLE TOUCHY TO THREATEN THEM. AND I KNOW YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT I MEAN.OH WELL IT ALL ENDED UP KIND OF OK I COULDNT REALLY DO MUCH ABOUT THE MOTER BUT THE GUY BUILDING MY CAR KEPT LEAVING IT OUTSIDE IN THE WEATHER AND THINGS HAD BEEN STOLEN OFF OF THE CAR AND THE WEATHER DID SOME DAMAGE TO ,I HAD ASKED HIM A MILLION TIMES TO NOT LEAVE IT OUTSIDE SO AFTER I FELT ENOUGH OF HIS TIME-MONEY- PARTS- AND LABOR HAD BEEN DONE I DECIDED THAT IF HE LEFT MY CAR OUT ONE MORE TIME THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE MY TURN,SO MY BROTHER AND I DROVE BY EARLY THE NEXT MORNING AND THERE IT WAS SITTING OUTSIDE I WAS F--N PISSED OFF FOR THE LAST TIME WHEN I GOT UP TO THE CAR I NOTICED THAT MY SHIFTER HANDEL WAS GONE SO I SAID F///K IT THATS IT WE DROVE ABOUT 2 BLOCKS UP THE ROAD AND HIRED A FLAT BED TO TAKE IT BACK TO MY HOUSE WHEN THE DUDE FIGURED OUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED HE WAS PISSED AND THRETENED TO CALL THE COPS BUT HE NEW THAT HE HAD JERKED ME AROUND ALOT AND THAT NOW I HELD ALL THE CARDS :lightsabe .SO WITH ME NOW ABLE TO THREATEN HIM ALL I WANTED FOR SOME REASON HE DECIDED THAT HE DIDNT WANT TO PERSUE THE SITUATION ANY MORE AND MAN WOULD YOU BELEIVE IT HES NOT IN BUSSINUESS ANYMORE.. ;)

[Sanger D]

I gave up on engine builders along time ago,the good ones that are trust worthy and know there shit are so high priced that only big money people can afford them and the cheaper guys are ussually like the gentlemen you,ve encountered here!!!MY advise to anyone is EDUCATE YOURSELF!!! have a plan and don,t deviate from it,find a repittable machine shop and get your stuff prepped ( machined ,balanced,all mocked up) and start assembling it yourself!!!you,ll be a better mind for doing so!!their are so many people to answer questions and help you,youcan rent just about any tool you need if you dont have it and you will have great satisfaction in running something YOU biult!!theres too many nice people out there to help ,than having to pay some speed shop who ussually wont even tell you what he did to you motor,its a stressful but well worth opportunity to build a motor yourself,no excuses,!!make the time and take your time doin it,it will be easier on your wallet and your head :smile: most good machine shops will help you along the way of assembly to make sure you don,t make any mistakes and if you have a son its a awsome thing to bond with them doing it,(or girl ,wife)GOOD LUCK in dealing with this guy and thanks for the heads up!!!! :)

[Squirtin Thunder]

Good Post SangerD !!!

[Cas]

I don't think DNE is one of the "cheaper guys". DNE has a pretty darn good reputation as a shop to go to for building a real good engine. Since I've never had any dealings with them, I'm not about to comment on their business practices.

[blown428fe]

I also agree 100% with SANGER D since I have been burned in the past. Ended up buying another boat while waiting a year and half for a big shot engine builder that is now and X friend of mine. I put my wife through hell and wasnt the same around are three sons because we didnt have the motor back and looking at second season out of water.Do it your self and do alot of reading.

[Coleitis22]

I think most of the board knows of DNE motors and the quality of motors he builds, I must warn eveyone of how DNE does business regarding his quoting and final billing.
I sat down with DNE and had Dave give me a quote regarding a re-build which I thought was a far price. It took 9 months to received my motor (5 months late) and I had payed what we had agreed upon. DNE build exacly what we had talked about 9 months earlyer, no change in the plan.
Well 2 month later after i had received my motor I received a copy of my final invoice and it was more than double what DNE had quoted me and all DNE could say was look it over. Over the 9 month build I was at DNE's shop many many times and never did DNE say anything about the motor cost doubling.
THIS IS NOT HOW YOU DO BUSINESS
Afer making a more than fair offer to settle the differance DNE is taking me to court, which will not be good for DNE, past DNE customer and myself.
Sorry to do this but I will be contacting past DNE customers and requiring them to show up in court to give their stories of how DNE has miss lead them into building a motor for one price and then charging another price.
DNE has done the many times in the past couple of years and it cannot continue..
Mark
I hooked up with a guy the other day about an engine. His name is John Nijssen at www.strokerengines.com
760-247-0690 This guy will build anything and is very reasonable. Go to his site or give him a call. :D :D

[77charger]

mark return the motor.and i'll set you up with the guy who did the motor for the flat i drive. :2purples: He takes time but the price is good and he is learning boat motors real fast.(mine was the first motor he did for a boat he mainly does 1/4 mile drag cars(has done a ton of street racer motors when real cars use to race) and is very good.
I think the legal action against you is a low blow esp if the price was agreeda upon i can see a few hundred bucks for price increases but double!!

[victorfb]

i will have to agree with sangerD when it comes to building it yourself. alot of satifaction and the learning is extremely valuable. there are many people and even more awsome books that will give you step by step instructions. asking a local machine shop for advice is allways a good way to get quality info. just dont think youll be able to go to the big time builders and think they will give out their secrets, if you want to call them that. a properly set up motor is definatly a must for your application, but its not that big of a secret on how to build them. one of the best ways to get the correct info is asking the manufacturer of the parts your installing. ask them how you should set the cam up when buying one. ect ect ect. now not everyone has the time nor the skills so in some instances it is a must to find a reputable builder. at that point get EVERYTHING in writing. a signed contract is your only proof when it comes to the law. once you show a signed contract to the builder that wants to get more money from you they will useually back off since they know they will lose in court. its a shame you had a rough goround with DNE, ive heard nothing but good about them. and ive never dealt with them either so i cannot comment on thier buisness. i just hope it all works out for you both and maybe both learn something from the experience. good luck.

[Mr.&Mrs.Budlight]

God, I hate to say I agree with Sanger D but learn how to do it yourself and even if you don't build your own motors after the first one, you'll be more informed about who is doing it!!!! Budlight :idea:

[wrightnow]

I don't think DNE is one of the "cheaper guys". DNE has a pretty darn good reputation as a shop to go to for building a real good engine. Since I've never had any dealings with them, I'm not about to comment on their business practices.
Cas,
I never said DNE doesn't do good work, in fact I think he is one of the best. I have had other work done by DNE before the engine rebuild and was very happy.
When I came to DNE with my motor we sat down and discussed my option,
1. fix the current motor (needed head work)
2. do a complete rebuild (motor was 5 year old)
We talk about what the cost would be for a rebuild (I was on a buget) and came to a figure that I could live with and I gave DNE the go ahead. If DNE had been up front about the cost or even close to the actual cost I would have just repaired the motor. DNE is in the business of building motors he should have an idea of what it cost.
DNE built what we discussed from the begining, there were not any changes in the direction, motor size, cam, crank, pistions...nothing..... How can DNE be so far off and not give the customer any idea until two months after the motors delivered. and say here you go now pay double.
Just for the record DNE's qoute was off by over $8000
I tried to pay more what I thought was far and instead DNE wants it all...
Mark

[wrightnow]

Sorry to hear about your problems Mark.
My quote was close to the final invoice, the difference because the original quote was for a 496 and I decided halfway thru to switch to a 540. Presto! $1800 more. I also went with some optional stuff like TBC coating not included in original quote. When I got the final invoice, I went thru comparing big ticket items against prices on the net...all checked out. Labor costs are a gray area, and Dave's not cheap, but the total hours seemed reasonable to me...and final labor cost compared well with oringinal quote once added work accounted for.
Sorry your experience was different. And the lawyer thing seems a bit overkill. But if you force? me to testify, I may just be a hostle witness. :D
jer
Hey Jer,
I hear what your saying and thats why I DID NOT CHANGE DIRECTION thought out the entire engine rebuild. DNE built what we agreed on from the start and still more than doubled what he quoted..
Mark

[Mr.&Mrs.Budlight]

Mark, you got the motor. Now let the court handle it. My moneys on they won't show up in court. If they do, you get to speak your piece. Sorry to have it happen to you. Budlight

[wrightnow]

I also agree 100% with SANGER D since I have been burned in the past. Ended up buying another boat while waiting a year and half for a big shot engine builder that is now and X friend of mine. I put my wife through hell and wasnt the same around are three sons because we didnt have the motor back and looking at second season out of water.Do it your self and do alot of reading.
DNE told me that I would have my motor back before December and I final took delievery of the motor in May.
My wife is done also, she says sell the boat, she's tired of all the $hit and wants to part of this anymore.....

[wrightnow]

Mark, you got the motor. Now let the court handle it. My moneys on they won't show up in court. If they do, you get to speak your piece. Sorry to have it happen to you. Budlight
Thanks Budlight,
I'm very lucky that I have the motor already and we can see how this goes while I still can try to enjoy boating.... I have spoke to DNE's lawyer several times already there going to show....I just plan on showing a history of how DNE miss quotes his work and then wants the customer to pay for the mistake...
Good luck with your new ride....I'm sure Scotten wont let you down....
Mark

[pebo]

Hey Mark, just a question. Did DNE give you a written quote before preceading on your rebuild? And is this the motor you ran last year at Big River?

[wrightnow]

i will have to agree with sangerD when it comes to building it yourself. alot of satifaction and the learning is extremely valuable. there are many people and even more awsome books that will give you step by step instructions. asking a local machine shop for advice is allways a good way to get quality info. just dont think youll be able to go to the big time builders and think they will give out their secrets, if you want to call them that. a properly set up motor is definatly a must for your application, but its not that big of a secret on how to build them. one of the best ways to get the correct info is asking the manufacturer of the parts your installing. ask them how you should set the cam up when buying one. ect ect ect. now not everyone has the time nor the skills so in some instances it is a must to find a reputable builder. at that point get EVERYTHING in writing. a signed contract is your only proof when it comes to the law. once you show a signed contract to the builder that wants to get more money from you they will useually back off since they know they will lose in court. its a shame you had a rough goround with DNE, ive heard nothing but good about them. and ive never dealt with them either so i cannot comment on thier buisness. i just hope it all works out for you both and maybe both learn something from the experience. good luck.
DNE is a great shop and does outstanding work, But is' just wrong to quote one price and then charge another. I was at DNE's shop many time thought out the build and he asked for money (which I payed) though out the build up to the quotes price. DNE delivered the motor and then two months later says you now owe double.... I just dont get it...
Mark

[wrightnow]

Hey Mark, just a question. Did DNE give you a written quote before preceading on your rebuild? And is this the motor you ran last year at Big River?
DNE wrote out a quote, or should I say he scratch out on a yellow pad what it would cost and no I did not get a copy. DNE has done this before to other board members (quote one price and charge another) and I spoke to DNE about this and he said as long as we don't change direction on the build we will be ok on the quotes...So much for that statment...
I know it may come down to my word against his word, but this has happend to other DNE customers and I plan to bring them into courte if needed to show this is a common practice with DNE.
Yes this is the motor I ran last summer at Big River....
Mark

[Fogged Gullwing]

That is unfortunate. Dave is a good guy in my opinion.
But it all comes back to my credo " If you can't work on it yourself you should not own it " And if you can't work on it you better be able to pay someone to do it for you! I don't know the circumstances so I can't tell you anything that relates to your situation. But after doing this shit for twenty five years educate yourself and do it yourself. Your still going to need to get a quality machinist and that is a challenge by itself. Finding someone who did not sweep the floor in the shop before he became the head machinist is a tough deal. I've been through a lot of them!!! Finally I found a guy who actually went to school to learn how to machine automotive stuff and have been with him ever since. You will have to spend a good amount of money in tools and learn the proper way to assemble an engine but once you have done it it's not rocket science. I learned from Kenny Duttweiler when I was young so I had a great teacher. If you ever get a chance to learn from someone like that I suggest you take it. But like anything else just do some reading!!! and talk to people information is key!! You can call the manufacturers get there advice and so on. Hope everything works out for you.
BK

[wrightnow]

mark return the motor.and i'll set you up with the guy who did the motor for the flat i drive. :2purples: He takes time but the price is good and he is learning boat motors real fast.(mine was the first motor he did for a boat he mainly does 1/4 mile drag cars(has done a ton of street racer motors when real cars use to race) and is very good.
I think the legal action against you is a low blow esp if the price was agreeda upon i can see a few hundred bucks for price increases but double!!
I wish it was as easy as here is your motor give me my money back... but i supplied most of the parts (this was a rebuild)
I have tried to work this out without going to courte by paying DNE over 90% of his bill and he has refused it and wants more.....
Mark

[Jordy]

Did you at least get a big stack of the horsepower adding stickers? :D

[wrightnow]

That is unfortunate. Dave is a good guy in my opinion.
But it all comes back to my credo " If you can't work on it yourself you should not own it " And if you can't work on it you better be able to pay someone to do it for you! I don't know the circumstances so I can't tell you anything that relates to your situation. But after doing this shit for twenty five years educate yourself and do it yourself. Your still going to need to get a quality machinist and that is a challenge by itself. Finding someone who did not sweep the floor in the shop before he became the head machinist is a tough deal. I've been through a lot of them!!! Finally I found a guy who actually went to school to learn how to machine automotive stuff and have been with him ever since. You will have to spend a good amount of money in tools and learn the proper way to assemble an engine but once you have done it it's not rocket science. I learned from Kenny Duttweiler when I was young so I had a great teacher. If you ever get a chance to learn from someone like that I suggest you take it. But like anything else just do some reading!!! and talk to people information is key!! You can call the manufacturers get there advice and so on. Hope everything works out for you.
BK
UP until this I thought DNE was a good guy also. I had been dealing with DNE for a couple of years on some minor repairs and thought I would give hime a try. He does do outstanding work...
My problem with DNE is I went with DNE because of what he said he would do the work for and what I would get and now he wants double the price because why????????
Mark

[wrightnow]

Did you at least get a big stack of the horsepower adding stickers? :D
No those cost extra..........

[TIMINATOR]

Boat motor from a car guy who is "learning fast", asking tech questions from someone whom you did not pay, assembling your motor yourself with little experience, not getting a firm estimate and initialling any changes, ALL RECIPIES FOR DISASTER!!!!!!!!! As a side note:ALL ENGINE BUILDERS HAVE SECRETS!! Do not think for one minute that any of them will GIVE you any. At least not the latest or best. YOU GOTTA PAY TO SEE THE GOOD STUFF!!!! Back to the issue at hand, good luck. If you have a signed work order with a specified price with no changes, you should win, but at what cost? Thats the game many places play. See the thread:"you don't allways get what you pay for". I believe its under the "Cats and Tunnels" section. Keep in mind: if he's 9 months behind in his work, he probably doesn't care if you post your experiences and he loses a potential customer or two. It may not be what you want to hear but its the truth. Again, good luck. TIMINATOR

[PC Rat]

I'm just curious where the additional cost is? Higher priced parts, extra parts, extra labor - I'm assuming that he gave you an itemized bill and you know what parts you needed and I would assume that you have a good idea what parts cost from other sources. Where did the extra $8000 come from?
Brian

[wrightnow]

Boat motor from a car guy who is "learning fast", asking tech questions from someone whom you did not pay, assembling your motor yourself with little experience, not getting a firm estimate and initialling any changes, ALL RECIPIES FOR DISASTER!!!!!!!!! As a side note:ALL ENGINE BUILDERS HAVE SECRETS!! Do not think for one minute that any of them will GIVE you any. At least not the latest or best. YOU GOTTA PAY TO SEE THE GOOD STUFF!!!! Back to the issue at hand, good luck. If you have a signed work order with a specified price with no changes, you should win, but at what cost? Thats the game many places play. See the thread:"you don't allways get what you pay for". I believe its under the "Cats and Tunnels" section. Keep in mind: if he's 9 months behind in his work, he probably doesn't care if you post your experiences and he loses a potential customer or two. It may not be what you want to hear but its the truth. Again, good luck. TIMINATOR
I have to agree that engine build is an art and DNE has it down. You do get what you pay for....I just would of like to know or have an option about how and when someone is spending my money...
AS for is DNE care or not about this post is not what this is about... I want to make other members aware about this and to make sure you know what your getting yourself into.
Get everthing in writing before any work is done...
MArk

[Fiat48]

Hmm. You supplied most of the parts? Most builders don't like that. Later the bill is over $8000 more? I think we would all like to see the invoice...see whatcha bought.

[wsuwrhr]

DNE told me that I would have my motor back before December and I final took delievery of the motor in May.
My wife is done also, she says sell the boat, she's tired of all the $hit and wants to part of this anymore.....
"Let her bitch"
Nice name for a boat.
Brian

[Cas]

Cas,
I never said DNE doesn't do good work, in fact I think he is one of the best. I have had other work done by DNE before the engine rebuild and was very happy.
When I came to DNE with my motor we sat down and discussed my option,
1. fix the current motor (needed head work)
2. do a complete rebuild (motor was 5 year old)
We talk about what the cost would be for a rebuild (I was on a buget) and came to a figure that I could live with and I gave DNE the go ahead. If DNE had been up front about the cost or even close to the actual cost I would have just repaired the motor. DNE is in the business of building motors he should have an idea of what it cost.
DNE built what we discussed from the begining, there were not any changes in the direction, motor size, cam, crank, pistions...nothing..... How can DNE be so far off and not give the customer any idea until two months after the motors delivered. and say here you go now pay double.
Just for the record DNE's qoute was off by over $8000
I tried to pay more what I thought was far and instead DNE wants it all...
Mark
Mark,
I hope you didn't take my post wrong, I was referring to what someone else posted. I was agreeing with you that DNE has a real good reputation on building very good engines.
I just don't get how the bill can be that much difference.
I wish you luck in the outcome of this unfortunate situation!

[wsuwrhr]

How can DNE be so far off and not give the customer any idea until two months after the motors delivered. and say here you go now pay double.
Just for the record DNE's qoute was off by over $8000
Mark
Typo?
Please say it is.
You had the motor two months before the bill was paid?
The total was 8000.00 MORE than what you were quoted? For a rebuild?
What did you have done to it?
Brian

[TIMINATOR]

I reread the rest, and the most important part is that you have no estimate. No estimate means no defense. He probably knows that, or his lawyer does. We give estimates ON THE CUSTOMERS WORK ORDER ONLY, and only upon the receipt of a 50% deposit. That way we're all on the same page(so to speak), as to whats expected on both of our parts. This is the best way I have found to ensure that we are BOTH EQUALLY committed to the project. This may be too late for you Wrightnow, but may help others. TIMINATOR P.S I am not soliciting customers here,(notice no contact info), I am just trying to shed some light on the issue from the "other side".

[wrightnow]

I'm just curious where the additional cost is? Higher priced parts, extra parts, extra labor - I'm assuming that he gave you an itemized bill and you know what parts you needed and I would assume that you have a good idea what parts cost from other sources. Where did the extra $8000 come from?
Brian
The bill is for parts and labor and since I dont know what he qouted he was going to replace I dont what was extra, but I was charged for ever nut and bolt. Labor wise DNE qouted $2100 for labor and charged $3100 and then charge some more on other tasked. So I'm not sure what the $3100 covered.
Mark

[77charger]

If you are referin to my advice think it over again.For one my builder has lots of experience at least 30 years when i say learning it is cam selection and has that figured ot well as for succes our first year racing his first boat motor build for a drag boat got us a overall points championship.Gave us a motor that ran the number from the get go for the next motor he wanted a 9.0 second motor well after a tune sesion we got 8.96 i call that learning very fast Boat motor from a car guy who is "learning fast", TIMINATOR

[wrightnow]

Typo?
Please say it is.
You had the motor two months before the bill was paid?
The total was 8000.00 MORE than what you were quoted? For a rebuild?
What did you have done to it?
Brian
No typo.....
I had the motor two months and then DNE asked for another $8000+
Mark

[wrightnow]

Mark,
I hope you didn't take my post wrong, I was referring to what someone else posted. I was agreeing with you that DNE has a real good reputation on building very good engines.
I just don't get how the bill can be that much difference.
I wish you luck in the outcome of this unfortunate situation!
THanks....

[wsuwrhr]

So I'm not sure what the $3100 covered.
Mark
Sounds like this is what you need an answer to.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

No typo.....
I had the motor two months and then DNE asked for another $8000+
Mark
Why the bill of that kind of amount wasn't paid in full I don't know. I wouldn't let 1000.00 of machined parts out the door unless it was paid in full.
PMed you
Brian

[Havasu Hangin']

But it all comes back to my credo " If you can't work on it yourself you should not own it "
For all the "why don't you DIY" guys, there are a couple good reasons why people don't, even if they can.
A professional will do it faster. For example, if it takes Dave 10 hours at $60/hour to build an engine, most likely it will take me 50 hours. That $600 I would have spent means that I would pay myself $12/hour to build my engine.
It isn't worth the time away from my kids.
Since I'm pretty handy with a hammer, I guess I could save some money and build my house, too?
:D

[Cas]

double post?? strange

[Fiat48]

But you'll never enjoy the heartbreaks and rewards those who build for themselves get. It's not all about money.

[wsuwrhr]

I guess I am an idiot, because nobody works on my toys.
There isn't much I don't do myself. If something goes wrong, I have only person to blame.
I have made plenty of mistakes. Like a few other people have said, there is nothing like the pride you feel when you fire, or drive it for the first time.
"Along with the victory goes the spoils"
Brian

[Jordy]

No typo.....
I had the motor two months and then DNE asked for another $8000+
Mark
If that was the case I would have referred that call to Mr. Click. He handles all the money. Who, you might ask???
Mr. <CLICK>
Insert dial tone here. ;)

[TIMINATOR]

No smart-ass comment here, just read most of the posts from the car guy "boat motor builder victims", and keep in mind that a "RACE CAR engine builder" is closer to what a boat needs than a "rebuilder" car motor guys product is. Now for the smartass comment; naaaah, not gonna go there........ but I do have one,It's what the runnerup told me when I won my first "streetcar" shootout. TIMINATOR

[roostwear]

Do a search for "professional business standards" for the state of California. Not giving you a quote (or even receipt for your block, heads, etc) doesn't fly with the courts. It doesn't have to be automotive, or even licenesed with BAR, there are business standards that must be upheld in ANY service related business in the state. If there's no signed work order, he can't demand ANY money legally, so don't buckle under. He's on thin ice, and his lawyer will try to bluff you. He'll be hard pressed to prove to the court that he released the engine to you with a balance due.
Did you get any invoice/paperwork when you picked up the engine?

[Jake W2]

Mark you would have ended up paying 16000 bucks to have your motor rebuilt and you suplied parts?Holy $hit that must be a bad mother focker.
Jake

[PC Rat]

You say that the final price is over double the estimate, and the final price is over $8000 more than the estimate. So lets say the estimate was $7000. That's $15,000 total, minus the $3100 for labor, for simplicity lets say that leaves $12,000 for parts - but you said that you supplied most of the parts. That's a lot of nuts and bolts!
Brian

[Cs19]

WSUWRHR,
Dave let most of us take our motors the minute they come off the dyno so we could go have fun. I was stoked to be able to drop my motor in asap and go run it, Dave let us do that based on trust and friendship.I thought that was very cool of Dave.
I have nothing but the best things to say about DNE Motorsports,Im a customer for life.I Honestly could not be happier with my engine and with the continued support i get from DNE.
CS

[bp]

for those popcorn feeders out there, keep in mind that you're reading one side of what is most likely a very slanted story. as far as the truth? it'd probably be easier finding out the truth about wheeler dealer.

[wrightnow]

Hmm. You supplied most of the parts? Most builders don't like that. Later the bill is over $8000 more? I think we would all like to see the invoice...see whatcha bought.
What I supplied was my old motor 3over 454 that was in need of some head repair, other wise running fine and was looking for a rebuild of my motor into a 496. So we purchase pistons, crank, rods and cam the rest was from my motor....

[Fiat48]

That is still too general to pass any judgement. Need invoice of what you paid...what work and parts. Surely there must be an invoice with some detail.
Ex:
Sonny Bryant crank $2500
Scat crank $600

[Jake W2]

Looks like she is running good here.105 you said :D
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1000speedpass.jpg
Jake

[wrightnow]

WSUWRHR,
Dave let most of us take our motors the minute they come off the dyno so we could go have fun. I was stoked to be able to drop my motor in asap and go run it, Dave let us do that based on trust and friendship.I thought that was very cool of Dave.
I have nothing but the best things to say about DNE Motorsports,Im a customer for life.I Honestly could not be happier with my engine and with the continued support i get from DNE.
CS
Chris,
I'm sure you know were I coming from...... We talked about my quote long before the motor was done or even started and you know I did not change from what was quoted.
Do i like what DNE builds yes...... Would i have had DNE build me a motor if I know what he was going to charge no.........
I was told one price as a lot of DNE customers and give a final bill of much more.....No where was I told that would be on the hook for double the price.....
Mark

[wrightnow]

Do a search for "professional business standards" for the state of California. Not giving you a quote (or even receipt for your block, heads, etc) doesn't fly with the courts. It doesn't have to be automotive, or even licenesed with BAR, there are business standards that must be upheld in ANY service related business in the state. If there's no signed work order, he can't demand ANY money legally, so don't buckle under. He's on thin ice, and his lawyer will try to bluff you. He'll be hard pressed to prove to the court that he released the engine to you with a balance due.
Did you get any invoice/paperwork when you picked up the engine?
Your are correct the BAR requires all work to signed before starting and any changes to approved and signed also. I have fspokend and file with BAR already.

[wrightnow]

for those popcorn feeders out there, keep in mind that you're reading one side of what is most likely a very slanted story. as far as the truth? it'd probably be easier finding out the truth about wheeler dealer.
DP.
Just so we are clear, I spoke to many other DNE customers (most of them on the boards) about how DNE quotes and they all know what DNE told me the cost was going to be, what DNE and I agreed upon as for what the final motor was to be and nothing was change excempt the final invoice.
Mark

[Cs19]

Chris,
I'm sure you know were I coming from...... We talked about my quote long before the motor was done or even started and you know I did not change from what was quoted.Mark
Mark, Im not looking to get involved, just wanted to post my .02 on how I felt about DNE. Thanks.
Chris. :boxed:

[wrightnow]

That is still too general to pass any judgement. Need invoice of what you paid...what work and parts. Surely there must be an invoice with some detail.
Ex:
Sonny Bryant crank $2500
Scat crank $600
I'm not looking for anyone to pass judgement, i just saying GET EVERYTHINK IN WRITING before you get started....
camshaft 525.00
crankshaft 800.00
H-beam rods 400.00
pistons 755.04
Plenty of detail....It's all on how DNE spent more of my money without getting my approval first....
But then when DNE quoted me $4700 for parts I thought that was for all the parts.....

[wrightnow]

Looks like she is running good here.105 you said :D
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1000speedpass.jpg
Jake
Not saying DNE does not do good work....I just wish I would of had the option on how much more DNE was going to spend of my money....
Mark

[wrightnow]

This is my final post on this subject........
DNE does great work, oustanding work..he build what he says and it produces what he quotes....
I just wanted to come on here to make sure everyone know to get everthing in writing.........
Good luck
Mark

[Jake W2]

Mark I did not mean anything buy that post just think it is great that the 18 CP Runs 105. :D
Jake

[LVjetboy]

"For all the "why don't you DIY" guys, there are a couple good reasons why people don't, even if they can."
Good thought. In fact, I've rebuilt six engines as mister DIY, including the one in my last jet boat. Did I build the one that took me to 100 mph? No.
"A professional will do it faster. For example, if it takes Dave 10 hours at $60/hour to build an engine, most likely it will take me 50 hours. That $600 I would have spent means that I would pay myself $12/hour to build my engine."
Also good point. But you forgot a couple things. First, it'll take mr proud DIY maybe 10 years of building engines to learn what a pro builder already knows? How many engines and $$ is that? BTW, the engines I built I did with extreme attention to detail and reading and asking the experts for knowledge. Yet there's certainly a learning curve no matter how careful you are. And machining and tooling expense. How many engines and just how expensive is that learning curve? Well, based on my experience rebuilding a Chev 350 and a Ford 460 and a Pontiac 428 and others, including a Honda :yuk: I'd say more than I spent paying Dave to build a 760 hp 540. In fact, I'd probably spend ten times more.
Just to keep things in perspective.
Yes, I understand the pride in building an engine and running it. I rebuilt my first engine in a one-room appartment going through helicopter flight training. Pistons in the bath tub...engine block next to the bed. Dropped it in my Firebird a couple days before I left cross country from Ft Rucker, Al to Kirtland AFB, Nm. You think I was proud it not only ran but ran good??? You can bet that! So don't give me a song and dance about how DIY is the only way to go. At my age, I've done it both ways and have experienced both pros and cons. And I can tell you, if you want big time performance plus reliablility, a true pro can get you there. Yes, it will be EXPENSIVE. But consider how many engines you'd go thru to understand how to build a 760 hp engine running on 89 Octane right the first time? If you want an average or moderate power engine...then go for it...build it yourself I did.
But if you want extreme performance? I'd rather spend the extra learning curve time and $$ installing a stereo and running the lake.
BTW, this post is not an endorsement of DNE. It's my view of DIY vs Pro build. And it applies to more than just engines. And I'm not trying to discourage DIY. Pride in accomplishment and learning worth gold. But if you want the extreme, be willing to pay a pro or spend many, many years and $'s and hard knocks learning it yourself. In the end, you may find the pro was a better choice.
jer

[wsuwrhr]

WSUWRHR,
Dave let most of us take our motors the minute they come off the dyno so we could go have fun. I was stoked to be able to drop my motor in asap and go run it, Dave let us do that based on trust and friendship.I thought that was very cool of Dave.
I have nothing but the best things to say about DNE Motorsports,Im a customer for life.I Honestly could not be happier with my engine and with the continued support i get from DNE.
CS
10-4,
I just wanted to know the answer.
Brian

[Liberator TJ1984]

Seems pretty cut and dried to me , but I don't know about Cali.laws...
All is verbal agreement , you both initialy agreed on a price , you paid that amount ( you said ) , and you picked up your motor , case closed.... :hammer2:
IF HE WANTED MORE ..he should have had YOU sign the agreement !!!
since nothing is on paper signed by either of you I would Stand your ground , as stated earlier , Builders will not let anything out the door witout being Paid For In Full !!! and use that as one Base in your favor....
My .02* Good Luck

[Jeanyus]

That is unfortunate. Dave is a good guy in my opinion.
But it all comes back to my credo " If you can't work on it yourself you should not own it "
I agree with your credo, If you can't setup and pour a concrete foundation, you should not live in a house, or work in a building.
Or maybe some of us have spent thier lifetime learning skills other than engine building. Yet love hot boats.
I can go to work and make more money, for my time, than I would save, by building the engine myself. If I should make a mistake, it would be costly, and possibly dagerous. Not to mention as a concrete guy, form setter, I adjust my work with a 5 pound sledge hammer, That never works on an engine.
Therefore I need a reliable engine builder. Sorry for getting off topic.

[BrendellaJet]

sure would be nice to hear the other side of the story. I find it hard to beleive that anyone would go into that situation verbally....Something just doesn't sound right...

[victorfb]

something ive learned a while back was to NEVER ASSUME. this pertains to so many aspects its amazing. never assume the verbal agreement would be enough. never assume the client will be happy. never assume you have enough clearance between the piston and valve. it can go on forever. there should have been a written contract and all added work written down with an add sheet. this has turned into alot more than just a wrightnow vs DNE post. its an unfortunate deal but it sounds like mark has got his ducks in a row and we will just have to wait and see what the outcome is. as far as the DIY builders, there again, never assume and by checking and double checking every and all clearances, and parts, you most likely will end up with a good motor. the horror stories of some that have paid big bucks to have a reputable builder do the motor and then have it blow up shortly after, well there it is again, the builder must have assumed that all the work was done properly. thinking "hey ive built this same combo many times" and not double checking everything. man makes mistakes, but so do machines. Dave has a very good reputation with his motors. how he assembles them is his secret, but im sure he does not just bolt them together and assume its all done properly. checking all clearances is a time consuming effort but its a must when dealing with machinery. i say this because i dont want the guy that is thinking he wants to try and build his own motor to be discouraged. just take your time and do your research on the best combonation of parts.and allways use good quality parts.saving money buy useing cheap parts only assures a shorter life span of the motor. how short? sometimes and all too often TOO SHORT. squeezing HP from cubic inches has been a long time goal. yes there are little "tricks" here and there, but they have been known and if you do your homework you can find them out. it is the right combonation of parts and clearances that makes the motor want to live and be healthy. most reputable builders such as dave (DNE) knows these combo's and tricks and thats why he can save you alot of time. but as we all know, time is money. youll have to pay for it. building your own high performance motor just for the sake of saving money is not a smart decision. but if your willing to take the time and do all the research its a very rewarding experience. but like i said, it takes time and not everyone has it with thier busy lives.
and again, good luck to both parties (mark and dave) and i hope you both can come to an agreement.
to quote an idiot..... "cant we all just get along?"

[ROZ]

Sorry to hear you're having problems, Mark. I hope you get things resolved...

[bp]

i started talking to dave about an engine 5 years ago, while we worked on the biz. again 4 years ago, getting serious. with a little help from kz, we knew what we wanted to do and we started on it. did i have an estimate? yeah. did cost rise? yes. because when we started, we were not exactly sure which direction we would go with certain things, specifically because the condition of some of the used components was, at the time, unknown, and also because we hadn't fully decided on the new components we would use.
every time dave called, i answered, or called him right back. when a decision needed to be made, i made it. every time i called dave, he answered or he called right back. at the end, the engine made more power than he expected it would. and three + years later, it still is.
other guys can feel however they want to. i trust my life to the reliability of a dave ebbert engine.

[Mrs. Psycho Squid]

I wish it was as easy as here is your motor give me my money back... but i supplied most of the parts (this was a rebuild)
I have tried to work this out without going to courte by paying DNE over 90% of his bill and he has refused it and wants more.....
Mark
I don't know you or DNE, but there are somethings that just aren't adding up to me. Let me get this straight. You paid approx $8000. Two months later he calls you out of the blue and says you owe another $8000. You don't pay the additional $8000, but you did write him a check for 90% of the total which is approx. $6500. (which you eventually put a stop payment on). If someone called me 2 months after the fact and said I owed $8000 and there was never any kind of agreement on additional charges I wouldn't have given them a cent, much less $6500. I don't get it :hammer2: or maybe I just watch too much Judge Judy :p

[ROZ]

I don't know you or DNE, but there are somethings that just aren't adding up to me. Let me get this straight. You paid approx $8000. Two months later he calls you out of the blue and says you owe another $8000. You don't pay the additional $8000, but you did write him a check for 90% of the total which is approx. $6500. (which you eventually put a stop payment on). If someone called me 2 months after the fact and said I owed $8000 and there was never any kind of agreement on additional charges I wouldn't have given them a cent, much less $6500. I don't get it :hammer2: or maybe I just watch too much Judge Judy :p
You're a smart cookie :rollside:
It's too bad for both parties. I'm sure both will do things differently in the future...

[HBjet]

Two months later he calls you out of the blue and says you owe another $8000.
I think Wrightnow mentioned that it was 2 months until he rec'd his invoice where the final amount was listed. DNE or any company wouldn't be in business if they called there customers out of the blue asking for more money...
HBjet :(

[Sanger D]

It sucks that one guy gets a deal or walks away happy and you have to go through this crap!!I,m kinda leaning towards the crazy octopuss chick ,( I would,nt have givin him a dime!!!)BUT I know you still want this to work out and by giving him a additional 60 something hund. that sounds like a honest man,so iffin he doesnt want to have a meet of the minds then this will only HURT his business,these forums are the worst place to have a business discredited,I think we met at big river,dont you have the CP with the big scoop with green flames?,if so I,m the one that loaned you the drill and gave you the elect. connections,you seemed like a nice guy and this sucks your having to go thruogh this!!!in the future,I would look into doin it yourself next time,if I,m not mistakin you have sons right?,it would be a great way to hang out with your kids and have something to do together :wink: ,the wife will be alot more understanding if she see,s her boys workin with their ole man :cool: ,takes some of the bite out of the hassle,hell, my ole lady even got in there and preped my sealing points and anti- seized my boltsC,MON!!!please let us know how it turns out for ya and this whole experiance will most likely push you to doin it yourself next time :) GOOD LUCK

[Squirtin Thunder]

In Arizona I don't believe that either one of you has a case for anything. If nothing was in writing by either one of you nothing is enforcable, I don't even think a court will hear it. You have your motor and he was paid. Did you sign anything? The shit goes both ways if he doesn't have anything in writing that you signed he doesn't have a claim. Further more, what do you care you have the motor? NO OFFENSE but I would also like to read DNE's reply. I know I read a thread about an Eliminator boat that delaminated and that Eliminator was rude about it. After Eliminator's reply it was a differant deal all together.
Also to those who only work on their own stuff and don't think I should own stuff I can't work on it goes like this: I spend all the time I have working building houses, doing remodels and bidding jobs, I spend my free time having fun at the lake, dunes, etc. I am not about to spend my time going to school so I can work on my motor. I make good dough so I can pay someone who does it for a living, the same way they pay me to build their fancy houses.
DRAMA, DRAMA
Yah but you would have a hard time staying focused !!!!
Or you would be snow boarding or something and then there would be no boat !!!
Jim

[WILDERTHANU]

WHERE IS THE DNE FANCLUB??? :p

[Fogged Gullwing]

I guess you can stick with your Hammer But the old saying is " If you want it done right do it yourself!!! " Not all of us have kids or care to have them. Otherwise like Jer said there is nothing more satisfiying than doing something yourself. No one will take the care to build your stuff better than you!!! It's your interest and some of the so called pro's have had more than one Budweiser Friday!!! I know from experience!! So if you can't pay for a guarranty from your builder you might as well pay yourself 12.00 hr. And I've seen more than one invoice stating no refunds for racing use only and have the thing blow up in ten minutes. But it seems to me rich guy that since you have a house in havasu and another somewhere else that you cannot relate to a guy on a budget who is obviously feeling some pain. I build everything myself My garage my cars my boats!!! And the real funny thing is I don't have to sue myself!!! If I trusted all of this to others I'm sure that I would be disapointed. Rewards in this life don't all relate to the bottom dollar as you are stating. Take some pride and try to do it yourself!!!!
Later BK
For all the "why don't you DIY" guys, there are a couple good reasons why people don't, even if they can.
A professional will do it faster. For example, if it takes Dave 10 hours at $60/hour to build an engine, most likely it will take me 50 hours. That $600 I would have spent means that I would pay myself $12/hour to build my engine.
It isn't worth the time away from my kids.
Since I'm pretty handy with a hammer, I guess I could save some money and build my house, too?
:D

[bp]

WHERE IS THE DNE FANCLUB??? :p
right here. what else would you like to hear?
where are all the mass numbers of dne disgruntled customers? there's only been one, one-sided story in this entire thread. why, after all this time? maybe the people that do know the whole story aren't posting anything because the DO know the whole story?
we will not be getting any story, explanation, or anything else on this subject from dne on the internet. that is just not going to happen. hell, there are enough bits and pieces strewn throughout this thread anyway to tell the whole story. all anyone has to do is print it out...

[djdtpr]

Mark im sorry to hear about this ive hung out with you at the river and met Dave at the races and both of you are stand up guys.I hope you guys work this out.Good luck.
Danny

[MikeF]

I can't say that I have spent a ton of money @ DNE, but the money that I have spent over there has been reasonable and I have had nothing but good service and help from Dave. I believe most (if not nearly all) of his customers have been happy with Dave and the results of his work.
I do find it unfortunate that these problems have arisen with two people that I know and have met through the boards and am torn on the subject, so I will not comment on which I know little about.
Dave tends to get the latest and the greatest from the vendors he deals with and I know that these parts are pricey. These parts are the reasons that the engines he puts together are as good as they are. The experience and knowledge of the details that go into race engine building is where DNE excells.
Those are my thoughts. :chi:

[Fogged Gullwing]

That is unfortunate. Dave is a good guy in my opinion.
But it all comes back to my credo " If you can't work on it yourself you should not own it "
I agree with your credo, If you can't setup and pour a concrete foundation, you should not live in a house, or work in a building.
Or maybe some of us have spent thier lifetime learning skills other than engine building. Yet love hot boats.
I can go to work and make more money, for my time, than I would save, by building the engine myself. If I should make a mistake, it would be costly, and possibly dagerous. Not to mention as a concrete guy, form setter, I adjust my work with a 5 pound sledge hammer, That never works on an engine.
Therefore I need a reliable engine builder. Sorry for getting off topic.
Ron,
Yeah that was really in touch with what I was saying :) Yeah everyone that owns a house needs to know how to pour concrete! I was talking about vehicles not stationary objects. But I do qualify!! I can pour concrete / frame / plumb /electrical / roof / drywall / paint so I guess I can live in my house. But WTF you work on your boat all the time so what's with the lip!!
Later BK

[steelcomp]

BK...
It wasn't directed at working on the boat...(like working on your house) it was directed at the specialty of building an engine (like building a foundation).
What's with the lip and not reading? :coffeycup
Pay attention, Boy! :lightsabe

[Cs19]

WHERE IS THE DNE FANCLUB??? :p
RIGHT HERE. :mad:
JUST REMEMBER THERES ONLY ONE UNHAPPY DNE CUSTOMER, ALL THE REST OF US SEEM TO BE MORE THAN SATISFIED.

[steelcomp]

I have a question. Is what DNE did for you worth the money he's asking? Is he being fair about the price as far as what you got? Sounds like he spent money you didn't authorize him to spend, but it also sounds like you got more than you went in there for. :notam:
Two stand up guys, from what I can tell, don't try and pull one over on eachother. There's obviously been a miscommunication here, probably on both parts. Somewhere, someone didn't get the message across. I bet there's way more to this story.
POPcorn??!! :coffeycup

[HBjet]

I've said it before on many threads and I'll say it again... I'm a DNE customer for life. I don't have the trickest, or most powerful motor from DNE but what I do have has performed above and beyond my expectations everytime. I got a lot of crap from the DIYers about paying someone to build me a motor verses doing it all on my own. Well, when I go boating, I worry about having enough beer, not if my boat will run, and run hard... because it does everytime.
I am friends with both parties involved here and it sucks to see this happening so I'm not going to comment on either side... just my own experience.
HBjet

[Cas]

I still don't get it? What's the big deal about someone paying someone else to build them an engine? We all have choices, some choose to do their own work and some don't....bfd!
I chose to do my own because of many reasons listed but the biggest reason is I enjoy it. I was a mechanic for a few years prior to me becoming a general contractor. For me, doing my own rebuilds is kind of a therapy by giving me something else to do besides construction.
With this last rebuild, Dave was kind enough to answer quite a few questions that I had full knowing he wasn't going to get the business. He gave me a couple of tips for choosing a machine shop.
So far I've got 1 season on the engine and I'm very happy with it. I guess it remains to be seen how long it'll last. Granted, it's not anywhere near the HP some of you all are running but it's built to what we wanted.

[hack job]

I've said it before on many threads and I'll say it again... I'm a DNE customer for life. I don't have the trickest, or most powerful motor from DNE but what I do have has performed above and beyond my expectations everytime. I got a lot of crap from the DIYers about paying someone to build me a motor verses doing it all on my own. Well, when I go boating, I worry about having enough beer, not if my boat will run, and run hard... because it does everytime.
I am friends with both parties involved here and it sucks to see this happening so I'm not going to comment on either side... just my own experience.
HBjet
well said! and i agree one hundred %

[Danhercules]

. I got a lot of crap from the DIYers about paying someone to build me a motor verses doing it all on my own.
HBjet
LIAR!!!! :p :hammerhea

[Jet Hydro]

Wheres Chet?????? :eek:

[Fogged Gullwing]

I'm not sayin that all of us DIY's are the shit! But we have a few who are talkin shit! Yeah I would love to have a " Pro " build mine but I can't afford that that especialy after I know what goes into a race engine. Example!!! My brother moved to dallas Tx. We needed to build a new engine for his Chevelle. So I told him to go over to Reher Morrison in Arlington and have them give him an estimate. I wanted a 509 combination to kill off some torque on the bottom end because we were running a spec ET Street MT Tire. He told him no way he needed a 548 and the short block would be 11,500. My bro explained to him that he already had the cylinder heads!!! He said that was for the short block!!!
To be honest let me tell you what you get for these guys being a pro! They will decrease the intake and exhaust clearance to scary levels .050 and beyond to jack the C.R. up a point. One f@#K up adjusting the valves and your done!!!! I built a 509 that made 925 hp on the motor that had.125 piston to valve clearance so I really don't want to hear about Reher morrison anymore. So I would say that us DIY's Know how to to make big power without breaking the bank!!! I built the entire motor for 17,500 and it has not had a problem!!! This is something that Reher Morrisson would have built for 30,000 So for all ou doubter's out there please be advised you can do it for much less!!!!!
Later BK

[disco_charger]

"Yeah I would love to have a " Pro " build mine but I can't afford that"
Welcome to my sad little world. ;)

[Bense468]

WHERE IS THE DNE FANCLUB??? :p
why its got the 3" winshield wiper to keep my head light clean in a raiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin storm...now pass me a beer.

[Jet Hydro]

What`s the HP numbers of this engine?

[bruleracer]

WHERE IS THE DNE FANCLUB??? :p
very simply,, IM in. if half of these internet terds had a CLUE
we could have some fun.. maybe i could be a lawyer next week tooo..or

[ROZ]

RIGHT HERE. :mad:
JUST REMEMBER THERES ONLY ONE UNHAPPY DNE CUSTOMER, ALL THE REST OF US SEEM TO BE MORE THAN SATISFIED.
Really? Just one? I 'd bet there's more than one over the many years the guy has ben in business...

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

was there a price increase after the magazine articles? :boxingguy If I remember correct HBjets engine cost him somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,500-8,000 and it put down 740+ hp. So how much HP did a 15,000 496 put down??? just curious? something definitely sounds wrong......... and as we say in Texas.......possesion is 9/10 of the law. I would tell DNE to pound dirt. you have the engine and he released it to you after payment.......now if he released the engine before full payment was recieved I would think the burden of proof would be on him. Most folks don't settle for half upon delivery. ;) :idea: Sorry to hear about your misfortunes. It is unfortunate when deals like this go south. I guess life's lessons learned......next time get EVERYTHING in writing.
Omega

[wrightnow]

RIGHT HERE. :mad:
JUST REMEMBER THERES ONLY ONE UNHAPPY DNE CUSTOMER, ALL THE REST OF US SEEM TO BE MORE THAN SATISFIED.
Are you sure it's just one.........
I could name a few that were not happy with how DNE quotes one price and bills another, quotes a dyno date and then miss's it by months....Do I need to go on because I can?
I love what DNE builds....the rest is what I have a problem with...
Mark

[BrendellaJet]

Its not that hard to get a written quote out of him...You just have to ask for it. Worked for me.

[diggler]

Ok, you guys are really FREAKING me out!
I received my written quote about two weeks ago, and it was about $4K more than what I had expected from our verbal discussions. Not a big deal, but unexpected nonetheless.
I have a target completion date of sometime in April. Dave will be paid in full for the entire quote in the next few weeks.
Here's my questions...
1. Is my final build date in potential jeopardy (DNE history of being late?)
2. Is my final invoice going to be greater than my written quote?
3. Any other issues?????
Jesus Christ this is making me very uncomfortable!!!!!!
Anyone with dealings, please PM me your experiences!!!

[HBjet]

If I remember correct HBjets engine cost him somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,500-8,000 and it put down 740+ hp.
I'm not going to get into the details of my bill, but I can say I didn't buy all of my parts through DNE, therefore my bill wouldn't reflect what it would cost to build my motor again if you had nothing.
HBjet

[Heatseeker]

I was wondering if/when you were going to tune in to this thread Diggler. I would be seriously concerned about a $4k difference myself.
Being I have a minscule budget, the DIY thing has always been my way to go. So far, it's worked out well for me. The fellas on these boards are an invaluable resource for build info. I could never have built the blower engine I did without them! It's ran two seasons without even a hiccup. It cost me $18k starting with nothing(no block, heads, crank, blower, etc.). At least $8-10k less than a pro built deal.

[HavasuDreamin']

Ok, you guys are really FREAKING me out!
I have a target completion date of sometime in April. Dave will be paid in full for the entire quote in the next few weeks.
Any time you pay in full prior to receiving your product, you set yourself up for getting screwed. Final payment should be made when the product is complete and in your hands. This goes for all products in all industries.
If you pay in full up front, nothing holds the mfg.'s feet to the fire. Good Luck
HD

[Blown 472]

Did you get the tricked out custom DNE ky, or did he **** you dry.

[Zeug]

They have jammed a black seed of paranoia and dread into the tired soil of American consciousness, and have made it their lifelong duty to ensure that the seed festers and erupts into a gnarled weed of hate and ignorance and bad missionary-position sex with the lights off.
Damn, it sounds like DNE is on a misson...... :D

[Liberator TJ1984]

Diggler, don't pay in full untill deal is DONE....other wise it would be like putting a noose around your neck :D and askin for DNE to kick the chair out from under ya.... :notam:
Just why does it cost so much out there to build a quality motor??? Are they charging an extra 10K just for the valve cover stickers??? :D ....
My " pro Built " motor hat( Blower,carbs,fuel system..etc...) to pan was probably less than 15k and has 5 seasons on it....
Me just don't understand what makes them so expensive :confused:

[BrendellaJet]

Diggler, don't pay in full untill deal is DONE....other wise it would be like putting a noose around your neck :D and askin for DNE to kick the chair out from under ya.... :notam:
Just why does it cost so much out there to build a quality motor??? Are they charging an extra 10K just for the valve cover stickers??? :D ....
My " pro Built " motor hat( Blower,carbs,fuel system..etc...) to pan was probably less than 15k and has 5 seasons on it....
Me just don't understand what makes them so expensive :confused:
When you get smoked by a DNE N/A motor you'll know why!

[HBjet]

When you get smoked by a DNE N/A motor you'll know why!
I'd have to agree with that... not saying there aren't faster, more powerful boats and better builders out there.... from my experience though, every fast boat I ran at the river theoretically had a more powerful motor then me with better parts (heads, carbs, mech roller vs. my hydraulic roller cam, race fuel) but for some reason my motor still pushed me past them. Again, and again, and again... I'm not talking about the guys with a 200hp advantage, I'm talking about the guys who say they are running 800hp, or 750hp. For some reason they wouldn't believe my motor only made 730hp on 91 octane and that I'm only running a hydraulic roller cam. Then they would trip out on the full interior and cooler I have stitting in the boat. Anyways, just my experience...
HBjet

[Liberator TJ1984]

Maybe so :devil: :D
But what kind of Warranty do you get for that kinda Jack??? :D

[BrendellaJet]

No warranty, just peace of mind.

[Liberator TJ1984]

Hi HB long time,
Easy guy's..with all the tension in here I'm just stirrin' the pot a little , or maybe ALOT :argue:
Everyone has their own preference who they trust and use just like me....It just amazes me how much they can charge that's all :hammerhea
Peace , Gopherrr

[superdave013]

I'm sure most of the builders out here can not command that kind of coin.
But when you go to the race track and watch all the DNE powered boats winning race after race it brings the age old saying......."win on sunday - sell on monday"
I was talking about this same thing with a guy about the pump guru's. One charges almost double over the other guy. Why does everyone not go to the less money guy???
Easy, they "think" they will have some kind of edge going with the more money guru. Is it worth the extra cost?? Winning is winning and if that's what really matters then cost is not even a factor.
I know that if I was to build another race boat it would be a ski flatbottom. Yup, I'd want to go race against Tony. I'd have DNE do the engine no questions asked. Good thing for my heath that I don't have the bank to do it. lol

[BrendellaJet]

I wont get into the specific figures of my motor(being built now), but the labor portion is very fair when you consider the amount of detail that dave applies to the motor. The valvetrain alone would take me months to set up, and even then it wouldn't be up to Daves level of quality. the prices I was quoted were very fair in my opinion. The labor is not cheap, but considering his experience and the results that Ive seen and heard about, I wouldn't think twice about having him build me another. When it comes down to it, its simple supply and demand. If you've seen Daves shop, you know he's busy...(same with Jack)Your deductive reasoning skills can help you figure out the rest.

[HBjet]

No worries here... I can tell your just not seeing the value, which I could say is a fair observation. For me, I went to DNE just for some carb work first and was recommended to them from MPD. I value MPD and the work I get from them, so when I'm told DNE does great work, I had to check them out. I was very pleased with how my carbs worked and stayed problem free. The following year I talked to DNE about my cylinder heads which where peanut port heads. I let DNE know I didn't have a lot of money but wanted something better. He located some GM 990's that were just pulled off a new Merc 500HP motor. Installed those and my motor ran better. Then I was ready to have a motor buld because I wanted something to make a lot of power, but trouble free and run everytime. Thats when DNE and I sat down to see what we can do. The final product is what I'm running now and I love it. Yeah, there are guys with faster DNE motors, but for what I have and what is makes... nothing compairs in my book.
DNE prices may be sticker shock, but in my situation, the motor has already paid for itself with the amount of pleasure I get from running it.
HBjet

[HBjet]

And lets take a look at my motor :mix:
http://home.socal.rr.com/boatbutts/20motor001.jpg
http://home.socal.rr.com/boatbutts/corrected.jpg
HBjet

[WILDERTHANU]

SURE IS SHINNY....

[Liberator TJ1984]

Great job HB !
I wish I had one of those Spreadsheets on mine :frown:
But I was ,howto put it ...too Pinche wis de pesos...I catch crap all the time for not having it dynoed while in the shop :cry:

[HBjet]

SURE IS SHINNY....
And I actually have the real DNE valve covers too... That pick was taken the day after the dyno.
HBjet

[Hustler]

This whole deal sucks because I know both Mark and Dave. (1) for all you DIY guys I would really like to see you make over 800hp with a 496 on pump gas, and if you can do for less than 15k you will have my next motor build. (2) As far has a "Pro" built motor, try walking into Phaff or Teague with 15k to spend on a motor and tell them you want it to make over 800hp on pump gas. There going to laugh at you all the way out the door, I think for power that DNE make his prices are not really out there.
Mark you know how I feel about this whole deal and I think it sucks that it's gone to this level.

[roostwear]

...I'm not talking about the guys with a 200hp advantage,
HBjet
What's wrong with an Advantage having 200 hp? :D

[diggler]

I just want to say to all, thanks. I received a lot of PM's of DNE customers that have nothing but great things to say. As far as the legal aspects of it, the written quote is all that's needed to ensure no one falls into such a situation as this as easily.
There was NEVER a question of quality in my mind regarding the engine build. After the reassurances from all of these folks, I'm very confident now that I have a firm grasp of what to expect.
Thanks to all that PM'd me.

[sofa king smooth]

Dave is building me a motor right now and for what i'm getting i believe the price is fair.When we went a little over budget Dave called me and explained the situation and asked what i wanted to do.I said go for it.
I've had motors built by GT Performance,Blosdale and Gs marine,bang for the buck Dave is the best.I have heard nothing but good things about Dave. He has always taken the time to explain what hes doing ,even when i had no idea what he was talking about.
Dave duilds the bomb and for all you non believers look out for the :hammer2: when you pull up next to the red and white cp! :D

[canuck1]

I'd have to agree with that... not saying there aren't faster, more powerful boats and better builders out there.... from my experience though, every fast boat I ran at the river theoretically had a more powerful motor then me with better parts (heads, carbs, mech roller vs. my hydraulic roller cam, race fuel) but for some reason my motor still pushed me past them. Again, and again, and again... I'm not talking about the guys with a 200hp advantage, I'm talking about the guys who say they are running 800hp, or 750hp. For some reason they wouldn't believe my motor only made 730hp on 91 octane and that I'm only running a hydraulic roller cam. Then they would trip out on the full interior and cooler I have stitting in the boat. Anyways, just my experience...
HBjet
motor ain't everything I'd have to say the the hull and pump work you had done is worth something, maybe? :cool:

[mrgoslow]

motor ain't everything I'd have to say the the hull and pump work you had done is worth something, maybe?
thats kinda what i was thinking but i wont knock an engine builder when there's a ton of video/pics of his products layin down smack. as for 15K, i dont think ill ever pay that for a boat motor but then again ill probably never be in the same league.
bottom line is if DNE did what the invoice said and the customer accepted his engine when complete, i'd say he better pay up. if he didnt like what the invoice said, the engine should of sat in the shop until the dispute was settled or at least that would be the honorable thing to do in my opinion.

[RiverToysJas]

Then they would trip out on the full interior and cooler I have stitting in the boat.
Don't forget about the bow light!!! ;)
RTJas :D

[lucky]

building your own sometimes gets expensive - and you might be better off having it built ... or just as bad buying someone elses stuff (unless ya know them )

[diggler]

building your own sometimes gets expensive - and you might be better off having it built ... or just as bad buying someone elses stuff (unless ya know them )
buying someone else's stuff is why I'm having a new engine built in the first place. Ouch!! :frown:

[LVjetboy]

"1. Is my final build date in potential jeopardy (DNE history of being late?)"
Consider as you said, a "target" date. For my build, RFE sent the heads with steel instead of alloy seats. Had to be shipped back to Ohio for the right seats. Other delays I caused by changing my mind mid-build :rolleyes: eventually leading to a missed dyno slot, which bruleracing can tell you...more delay to reschedule. Not saying yours will be late just my experience.
"2. Is my final invoice going to be greater than my written quote?"
Mine was close, the difference because I changed blocks between written and final.
"3. Any other issues?"
I wouldn't pif until tested and delivered. If you do the dyno, try to relax, kick back and enjoy. Order a pizza, tell Steve and Dave hi for me. I'm sure they remember me pacing around saying, "Isn't that enough pulls? Please don't hurt my engine!" :) Now I wished we'd run it a few more pulls and tested w/o the mufflers.
Oh ya and another DNE Beast...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/WestechOne.jpg
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/DNEBeast.jpg
Dyno tested with 89 Octane! 9.8:1 Compression...
jer

[Liberator TJ1984]

Another stuipid question on my part , just cause it's something I'm Good At :D
On HB's and Jer's motors ya got mechanical fuel pumps , would you not want to dyno the motor with the same fuel system that you would actually be running at home ??? the dyno setup looks to be DNE's setup or is it just disconnected in the photo ??? :confused:

[HBjet]

The last 4-5 pulls we ran the motor exactly the same way it does in the boat. Minus the scoop. The best numbers where on the second to last pull I believe.
HBjet

[HBjet]

look out for the :hammer2: when you pull up next to the red and white cp! :D
I know I can't wait to see this setup to be finished and running... I'll be on the shore... or I can be the chase boat to explain what happened to the guy you spank because he won't know what passed him :D
HBjet

[HBjet]

motor ain't everything I'd have to say the the hull and pump work you had done is worth something, maybe? :cool:
True, the bottom work helps my boat some for sure. As for my hull, I would say there is no advantage over anyone else. Its a regular Eliminator layup from 1988 with a full interior (and bow light) the bottom is one of the better V bottom hulls, but when these guys are in Daytona's, CP's, etc... I would say most of them should have the hull advantage... but I don't know what condition there hulls are in, I just know what they are. I'm sure with my boat some people may think its your typical v-bottom jet boat with a tunnel ram motor.... whats new right? :idea:
HBjet

[victorfb]

True, the bottom work helps my boat some for sure. As for my hull, I would say there is no advantage over anyone else. Its a regular Eliminator layup from 1988 with a full interior (and bow light) the bottom is one of the better V bottom hulls, but when these guys are in Daytona's, CP's, etc... I would say most of them should have the hull advantage... but I don't know what condition there hulls are in, I just know what they are. I'm sure with my boat some people may think its your typical v-bottom jet boat with a tunnel ram motor.... whats new right? :idea:
HBjet
Typical? :idea:

[wrightnow]

bottom line is if DNE did what the invoice said and the customer accepted his engine when complete, i'd say he better pay up. if he didnt like what the invoice said, the engine should of sat in the shop until the dispute was settled or at least that would be the honorable thing to do in my opinion.
As I see it the honorable think to do would of been for the one who missed quoted to try and work a deal out, not just demand all the money and say it is what it is.... I deal with my mistakes and handle them...I dont ask someone else to pay for them.
So what your saying is if someone performs a service for you, the invoice is correct about what work was done and your happy with the work.... then it's open to what ever the person wants to charge and disregard what your were quoted....charge away? I dont think so....
Once again.... I'm very please with what DNE builds I think he's one of the best and it may be a great value for what you pay........
But if you say your doing if for one price but charge another it's not ok.... I agreed on a 496 800hp 8k motor as DNE quotes not 16k
I know a few DNE customer that would of passed on the having a motor build if they knew up front what the final DNE invoice was going to be.. We all want to know what we getting into before we say I do.
MArk

[Liberator TJ1984]

.Hustler .... (1) for all you DIY guys I would really like to see you make over 800hp with a 496 on pump gas, and if you can do for less than 15k you will have my next motor build.
(2) As far has a "Pro" built motor, try walking into Phaff or Teague with 15k to spend on a motor and tell them you want it to make over 800hp on pump gas. There going to laugh at you all the way out the door, I think for power that DNE make his prices are not really out there.
Mark.....
But if you say your doing if for one price but charge another it's not ok.... I agreed on a 496 800hp 8k motor as DNE quotes not 16k
Conflict of Intrest here :devil:

[77charger]

Really? Just one? I 'd bet there's more than one over the many years the guy has ben in business...
I say the same thing.If you run a bus and only have one unhappy customer wow you are doing something that is very rarely accomplished since alot of people like to nitpick everything these days.I say when all said and done there will probably be a few more.
I dont have anyhting against both people involved here nor have i had a motor built from dave to be honest i probaly couldnt afford it i didnt pay for the motor in the flat i drive my boss did so he had someone he considers is the best and the price was very very good as well as results.Eveyone gas there own opinion

[HBjet]

.Hustler .... (1) for all you DIY guys I would really like to see you make over 800hp with a 496 on pump gas, and if you can do for less than 15k you will have my next motor build.
(2) As far has a "Pro" built motor, try walking into Phaff or Teague with 15k to spend on a motor and tell them you want it to make over 800hp on pump gas. There going to laugh at you all the way out the door, I think for power that DNE make his prices are not really out there.
Mark.....
But if you say your doing if for one price but charge another it's not ok.... I agreed on a 496 800hp 8k motor as DNE quotes not 16k
Conflict of Intrest here :devil:
Wrightnows motor wasn't built from scratch. If I remember correctly they used the block, heads complete (which needed a lot of repair) carbs, roller rockers, and the tunnel ram. Hustler is talking about a build from nothing, or close to nothing...
HBjet

[Liberator TJ1984]

Kinda figured we wer'nt comparing apples to apples....
When I had my motor built I Aquired all needed parts at the builders recommendations and specs with the exception of pushrods which were custom jobs. Then had him do all machine work and assy....
saved lots doing it that way I guess???

[Jeanyus]

The problem sounds like a breakdown in comunication.
I took my short block to a shop to be redone. They made out an invoice, that spelled out the machine work to be done, and the parts to be installed. I signed the invoice, gave them my cell # and told them to call if anything changes. They called, cracked rods, I asked how much,they told me and I OKed the extra.
If I needed a new engine, and had the money I would get 1 of these.
Using the above method, for prices.
http://home.socal.rr.com/boatbutts/20motor001.jpg
It seems like good engines with that much horsepower, are in that price range.
http://www.primediapowerpages.com/isroot/ePages7/Images/103931/103931-1014867.jpg
760 horsepower $14,995.00
IMO the DNE engine seems like a good buy.

[Hustler]

Kinda figured we wer'nt comparing apples to apples....
When I had my motor built I Aquired all needed parts at the builders recommendations and specs with the exception of pushrods which were custom jobs. Then had him do all machine work and assy....
saved lots doing it that way I guess???
OK how about this, try walking into any of the "PRO" builders with the same parts Mark had and say this is what I want and I only want to spend 15k it's not going to happen. Teague has a quad whipple motor (not sure of the size) making a 1,050hp. There cost for that motor you ask? try 60k. All thing relevant I think 15k for marks motor not that bad but what the hell do I know I'm just another DNE customer waiting on his motor :confused:

[Kindsvater Flat]

Just curious what there shop labor rate is..... anyone know?

[Liberator TJ1984]

http://www.herbertperformance.com/performance/pages/cat0007.gif
565 seems to be a hell of a deal !!!! at 10K

[Liberator TJ1984]

OK how about this, try walking into any of the "PRO" builders with the same parts Mark had and say this is what I want and I only want to spend 15k it's not going to happen. Teague has a quad whipple motor (not sure of the size) making a 1,050hp. There cost for that motor you ask? try 60k. All thing relevant I think 15k for marks motor not that bad but what the hell do I know I'm just another DNE customer waiting on his motor :confused:
Hustler,
Not bashing DNE here if thats the way it seems...nor trying to get in a pissin' match ....just want to know whats up with other deals out there???
I bought parts thru the builder at his cost /what He wanted...then once all parts were collected , then had him do his stuff

[wsuwrhr]

DNE prices may be sticker shock, but in my situation, the motor has already paid for itself with the amount of pleasure I get from running it.
HBjet
I'm thinking the total cost wasn't exactly the problem, it is the way the "estimate" didn't match the ticket.
But I do agree with, "You get what you pay for."
See sig.
Good labor isn't cheap....
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

We all want to know what we getting into before we say I do.
MArk
We are still talking about motors here right?
Cause I am STILL wondering what I got myself into.
:D :D :notam:
Brian

[Hustler]

We are still talking about motors here right?
Cause I am STILL wondering what I got myself into.
:D :D :notam:
Brian
Your wife could be saying the same thing :supp: :D

[Havasu Hangin']

...what the hell do I know I'm just another DNE customer waiting on his motor :confused:
:idea:

[wsuwrhr]

Your wife could be saying the same thing :supp: :D
I bet she does, as I am sure everyone has the same concerns.
But a joke is meant to lighten up a situation. :messedup: :messedup:
Brian

[Hustler]

Hustler,
Not bashing DNE here if thats the way it seems...nor trying to get in a pissin' match ....just want to know whats up with other deals out there???
I bought parts thru the builder at his cost /what He wanted...then once all parts were collected , then had him do his stuff
Not taking it as Bashing, Sorry if it came across that way (damn key boards)
That 565 is a pretty good deal, but I really like the idea of running pump gas since my boat hold 60 gallons. That 100LL or race gas add's up fast. I look at alot of the motors like Herbert and others offer, but I really wanted a blower motor and most engine shops that offer them are just as much as what I'll have in mine and I got pick out the parts that went inside. I'v built alot of motors since I was kid but as I get older I find I dont have alot of the time I had as a kid and I guess just like to enjoy the spare time I do have with family and friends at the river drinking a cold one.:D

[Hustler]

:idea:
What the hell would you know :rolleyes: :D

[cyclone]

a friend of mine once told me something I'll never forget....he said, " I thought I could build my own motors but it turns out I'm better at building grenades."

[Havasu Hangin']

What the hell would you know
:idea:

[Hustler]

a friend of mine once told me something I'll never forget....he said, " I thought I could build my own motors but it turns out I'm better at building grenades."
Even some of the best Top Fuel builders launch a grenade once in awhile :D

[Blown 472]

This whole deal sucks because I know both Mark and Dave. (1) for all you DIY guys I would really like to see you make over 800hp with a 496 on pump gas, and if you can do for less than 15k you will have my next motor build. (2) As far has a "Pro" built motor, try walking into Phaff or Teague with 15k to spend on a motor and tell them you want it to make over 800hp on pump gas. There going to laugh at you all the way out the door, I think for power that DNE make his prices are not really out there.
Mark you know how I feel about this whole deal and I think it sucks that it's gone to this level.
Maybe the ones laughing dont have access to a hot dyno??? :p :p

[Hustler]

Maybe the ones laughing dont have access to a hot dyno??? :p :p
any one can have access to that dyno so bring your stuff out so you can break the dyno :D :D

[cyclone]

Hey Mikey, saw your motor sittin down at the shop yesterday lookin good. Mind iffin I borrow it for a couple weeks? I'll spring for an oil change when I'm done with it, okay?
Rio :)
I'd say yes but i dont think you'd like to clean up the oil that will inevitably squirt out the rear of the intake manifold when you fire it up. It'll make an ugly mess of your boat's bilge and transom. Nothing a new bead of silicone wouldn't fix but still, why risk the mess? :wink:

[Cs19]

Just curious what there shop labor rate is.
Paul Pfaaf = 90/hr.
DNE=60/hr.
Considering the quality of the engines leaving DNE, I think its a steal.
Another satisfied customer here.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/409IMG_0794.JPG http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/409IMG_0797-med.JPG
830 hp @6700 rpm on 91 octane. Ran it all last season at the river and the track , no billing issues or engine problems for me.
This thread really upsets me,this is not the way to handle things.

[RiverToysJas]

As long as the attention of the DNE crowd is focused here, can someone tell me how an engine builder can release a new motor to a client w/o a dip stick, or any way to check the oil level in the motor?
I personally know first hand two people with DNE motors that have no dip stick, and Dave told them this is not a problem. :confused: One of the motors is in a 23' cruiser.
This goes against all I know. A visual instection of the oil can tell you so much about the motor, not to mention the obvious level of the oil. How would you know if you're milkshaking?
I don't understand, please help me!
RTJas

[LVjetboy]

"Another stuipid question on my part...on HB's and Jer's motors ya got mechanical fuel pumps , would you not want to dyno the motor with the same fuel system that you would actually be running at home ??? the dyno setup looks to be DNE's setup or is it just disconnected in the photo?
Can't speak for HB, but my dyno run was DNE electric fuel, and yes I do run a regulated mechanical on the lake. Good eye. But did you also notice I strapped my dash tach with wire tires just below the alternator? I wired so I could see it from the control room and check that tach against the control room tach. Back to the subject, does me running a mech vs the dyno electric make a difference? My guess no, not unless my mech (or his electric) can't deliver flow to fill the bowls at full throttle.
On the lake, I monitor fuel pressure with both mechanical (mounted to regulator) and electric (on the dash) fuel pressure gages. I set the pressure regulator to 7.5 psi. Both gages read a steady 7.5 psi from idle to full throttle. I'm thinking, if my lines and fuel system flow enough fuel at 7.5 psi to keep the bowls topped at full throttle? Then fuel/air mixture same no matter electric or mech fuel pump...no difference to the engine. In other words, mixture stays the same with bowl level. Same mixture, no difference to power measured. Do you think different? If so let's talk.
jer

[LVjetboy]

"565 seems to be a hell of a deal !!!! at 11K"
Optional carb (900) and distributer (300) and belt drive (?) and shipping extra? Options add up.
More importantly, does it run on 87 Octane or or even 89 with hydraulics? We're comparing apples to apples right? I'm thinking maybe...no. Solid lifters, more lift, more cubes and way higher compression, then factor in all parts included and compare...
jer

[LVjetboy]

"just want to know whats up with other deals out there?"
Fair enough. Here's another deal out there...
31k for a 740 hp marine engine with exhaust? Ad in latest issue of HBM.
jer

[LVjetboy]

"Brian, when you did that water manifold for me, you gave me what I considered a fair price beforehand and stuck to it. If you'd tried to charge me double and/or were months late- you'd have kept it. YOUR ethics are beyond reproach and that's exactly what we're discussing here."
Rio, while I'd agree with much of your post...a water manifold is not an engine rebuild and test...neither in timing or money involved. Much more can change with the complexity of the project.
As for thread spin-offs like how much power and who wins races and comparing reliability to $/hp and what others charge...spin off's are a natural forum thing and not so bad. They help fill out the subject and maybe even enlighten or motivate...bring in new ideas. NOT everyone has the same interest, perspective or wants to focus soley on the legal stuff of lawyers representing Wrightnow vs. DNE.
Sometimes spin-offs at least if not more interesting than the original thread. And if not for spin-offs, some a bit off topic but very much related, this thread would generate a lot less interest and maybe died long ago.
jer

[LVjetboy]

"I personally know first hand two people with DNE motors that have no dip stick, and Dave told them this is not a problem. One of the motors is in a 23' cruiser. This goes against all I know. A visual instection of the oil can tell you so much about the motor, not to mention the obvious level of the oil. How would you know if you're milkshaking?"
RTJ, would you call this a dip stick?
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/DipStick.jpg
How hard is it to break out the 9/16"? Word-of-mouth from someone who knows someone may not the best source.
jer

[Liberator TJ1984]

well hell ,, my sturrin' stick broke, outta beer and popcorn, beat this tread to death anyways. :cry: .....Off to Another :devil:

[Taylorman]

"I personally know first hand two people with DNE motors that have no dip stick, and Dave told them this is not a problem. One of the motors is in a 23' cruiser. This goes against all I know. A visual instection of the oil can tell you so much about the motor, not to mention the obvious level of the oil. How would you know if you're milkshaking?"
RTJ, would you call this a dip stick?
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/DipStick.jpg
How hard is it to break out the 9/16"? Word-of-mouth from someone who knows someone may not the best source.
jer
Hey LV, what kind of intake and heads are on your motor?

[WILDERTHANU]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/409IMG_0794.JPG http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/409IMG_0797-med.JPG
THAT ONE SURE IS SHINNY TOO... :D I'VE DONE SOME SMALL BUSINESS WITH DAVE....SEEMED LIKE A UP AND UP GUY TO ME.

[sdpm]

Hi LV< that looks like a Dooley or Dan Olsen pan. I have used many of these pans and the dip stick was a rod that was welded onto the underside of that bolt head in your picture. I measure where I want the oil level to be by filling the pan on the bench before installing and mark it on the rod. Take a look, you might find one.

[bp]

Hey LV, what kind of intake and heads are on your motor?
they're rfe sportsman heads and sportsman intake, same as mine. spdm, it is a dan olson pan, same as mine, and yes, that is a dipstick that is marked, same as mine, that does show oil level, which is what lv was referring to when he mentioned breaking out the 9/16....

[monkey rage frank]

I had some carbs freshened up by DNE, took them forever to get them done. I was very cautious, because this all happend to a good friend of mine so I was on Dave consently about the price,although expensive the price did not change. It took me a very long time to pay him back because I pulled all my parts from him before completion and went elswhere. This is all to bad to hear,I thought of Dave to be a real good guy,during the year it took to get my carbs done we had lots of conversations. Oh Well live and learn (Don't sweat the petty things,pet the Sweaty things) :D If anyone needs a motor built and after all the things I've been thorough with these "business men" ie Dne,Matt Blogett @etreme auto and marine I have found that LEW LARSON is the man he's more than reasonable and he does damn good work. LEW definelty is able to sleep at night. George Shiala is doing some work on my boat now to get her just right. He does Glass repair and just all around everything another awesome guy who can sleep at night George @ Finish Line boats Lake Havasu Az Good Luck Frank

[sdpm]

they're rfe sportsman heads and sportsman intake, same as mine. spdm, it is a dan olson pan, same as mine, and yes, that is a dipstick that is marked, same as mine, that does show oil level, which is what lv was referring to when he mentioned breaking out the 9/16....
Hi BP, I thought LV was asking the question and Taylor was the one talking about the 9/16? I could be wrong! I think I was once before. ;) But I'm picking up what your throwing down!! See ya soon.

[LVjetboy]

sdpm, you had to read my quote of rtj in that post about no dipstick from DNE...and consider my usual sarcasm. Yes, I know very well where my dipstick is thankyou! I thought maybe rtj's friends didn't so I took the picture.
:D
And no jokes about how long it is.
:D :D
jer

[wrightnow]

As long as the attention of the DNE crowd is focused here, can someone tell me how an engine builder can release a new motor to a client w/o a dip stick, or any way to check the oil level in the motor?
I personally know first hand two people with DNE motors that have no dip stick, and Dave told them this is not a problem. :confused: One of the motors is in a 23' cruiser.
This goes against all I know. A visual instection of the oil can tell you so much about the motor, not to mention the obvious level of the oil. How would you know if you're milkshaking?
I don't understand, please help me!
RTJas
I would be one of those customer, it's a race pan DNE got for me and I was not aware until after the motor was installed that there is no dip stick...

[Danhercules]

:D
And no jokes about how long it is.
:D :D
jer
Ok, but can we joke on how skinny it is? :D

[diggler]

I just wanted to leave some feedback here. I had talked to numerous folks that had engines built by DNE, and then I talked with Dave Ebbert himself. I am currently well underway in the build. After reading this thread and having some misgivings, I can honestly say I now feel very confident with DNE building the engine at the written price quoted, and delivered around the date he had promised.
Dave had a lot of calls over the past few days as a result of this thread. Being a new customer, and meeting Dave for the first time I have this reaction.... He is just like any other businessman. If you get everything in writing, there is no question or hassles to go through. He was up front about everything with me and I truly believe him to be a stand up guy that will deliver exactly what he promises.
Sure, sure, the build was a little more than I expected. However, with the written quote and the approximate date of delivery, I have plenty of time to make personal financial arrangements OR I could tell him to not do a few things to lower the price. I opted to go whole hog with mine. :)
I just wanted to provide this feedback for those existing customers such as I, or potential ones. Keep all the t's crossed and the i's dotted and everything will be fine. (just as you would with any other large expenditure).

[ROZ]

it's a race pan DNE got for me and I was not aware until after the motor was installed that there is no dip stick...
Be glad you didn't... That was a $ 999.99 option ;) :D

[LVjetboy]

"I opted to go whole hog with mine."
I know the feeling. Back when I was having Jack do some pump work and I first met Dave, I ask him, "how much for another 100 hp?" He gave me a number and I remember thinking, no sweat, I can afford that. Things sorta snowballed from there. I got greedy...and it turned into, "how much to double my power?" On dock not pump gas please. Thinking back even though it was a $$ stretch, I'm REALLY glad I went whole hog. :D The ride's freakin' unbelievable! And that compared to my former 80 mph jetboat.
So what's he building for you? Any details?
jer

[bruleracer]

"1. Is my final build date in potential jeopardy (DNE history of being late?)"
Consider as you said, a "target" date. For my build, RFE sent the heads with steel instead of alloy seats. Had to be shipped back to Ohio for the right seats. Other delays I caused by changing my mind mid-build :rolleyes: eventually leading to a missed dyno slot, which bruleracing can tell you...more delay to reschedule. Not saying yours will be late just my experience.
"2. Is my final invoice going to be greater than my written quote?"
Mine was close, the difference because I changed blocks between written and final.
"3. Any other issues?"
I wouldn't pif until tested and delivered. If you do the dyno, try to relax, kick back and enjoy. Order a pizza, tell Steve and Dave hi for me. I'm sure they remember me pacing around saying, "Isn't that enough pulls? Please don't hurt my engine!" :) Now I wished we'd run it a few more pulls and tested w/o the mufflers.
Oh ya and another DNE Beast...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/WestechOne.jpg
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/DNEBeast.jpg
Dyno tested with 89 Octane! 9.8:1 Compression...
jer
hey jer,yes i do remember the pacing,, but if it wont live here it wont live there,,i guess it still lives there!!!,like most DNE dyno sessions we all learn. Dave has knowledge yet untapped, but if you ask him, i would bet he'd say he's still learning too. true professionalls are always on the learning curve,,or there not true professionals
sayin hi steve

[LVjetboy]

Steve, yep still livin' and livin' large. Ran last weekend maybe again Saturday on Mead...forecast 68 deg winds calm!
:D Ya!
jer

[TRG]

What,...no more drama??? that was some good readin! :cry:

[HBjet]

What,...no more drama??? that was some good readin! :cry:
Todd, your boat is one slow ass candy cane... :yuk:
HBjet :rollside:

[Her454]

I just wanted to leave some feedback here. I had talked to numerous folks that had engines built by DNE, and then I talked with Dave Ebbert himself. I am currently well underway in the build. After reading this thread and having some misgivings, I can honestly say I now feel very confident with DNE building the engine at the written price quoted, and delivered around the date he had promised.
Dave had a lot of calls over the past few days as a result of this thread. Being a new customer, and meeting Dave for the first time I have this reaction.... He is just like any other businessman. If you get everything in writing, there is no question or hassles to go through. He was up front about everything with me and I truly believe him to be a stand up guy that will deliver exactly what he promises.
Sure, sure, the build was a little more than I expected. However, with the written quote and the approximate date of delivery, I have plenty of time to make personal financial arrangements OR I could tell him to not do a few things to lower the price. I opted to go whole hog with mine. :)
I just wanted to provide this feedback for those existing customers such as I, or potential ones. Keep all the t's crossed and the i's dotted and everything will be fine. (just as you would with any other large expenditure).
Dirk - whats the ETA for it hitting the water?

[MarKist]

Todd, your boat is one slow ass candy cane... :yuk:
HBjet :rollside:
Damn Todd, you gonna take that?? :D :D
Markist

[DansBlown73Nordic]

I have used the same machine shop for 15 years. He always gave me a price on the work. I would agree and the work would be done. If he found a problem Id get a call to say you need this or that. This guy retired two years ago....
Now fast forward to last year. I needed a valve job on a set of heads. we spoke about the price of a valve job. Then they found a crack. He told me a guy was going to repair the crack for free because they were just buying this crack repair system. I said GREAT....If it doesn't work I will just replace the head. Not a big deal....So the heads are all done. I go to pick them up. He lost all my rocker studs and guide plates. He wanted almost $700 for the work.... :sqeyes: I said shove the heads up your ASS!!!!! That was a far cry from the $200 in the beginning. If I had any idea how much he was going to want I would shit canned the heads. In the end I gave him $300 and told him Id never ever be back. He gave me a song and dance about how much work he did on them.
The reason I was so pissed was because I had asked many times. IF THESE HEADS ARE GOING TO GET EXPENSIVE TO FIX I WILL JUST BUY A DIFFERENT SET!!!!! His words were NOPE SAME PRICE I TOLD YOU!!! $250. I didn't want to sink a bunch of money in a cracked head. DUMB!!!!

[steelcomp]

$5500.00 650+hp 2 hours run time since freshen...less than 5 hours total since NEW...ALL NEW. I've seen dyno time that was harder on a motor than what this one has seen.
I'll put this motor against any comparable DNE, or any other builder's motor.
$5500.00 is barely enough to cover the parts at the prices I was able to shop for. Without connections would be even more. That dosen't include machine work, nor dose it include my labor. There's as much attention to detail in this motor as any. Probably more, since I was building it for myself, and not being pushed by a schedule, or the need to make a profit on it.
Figure it out. :D
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9757&stc=1

[TRG]

thats just fine mark,...randy knows he's about to have his ass handed to him,....quick style! BWAAAHAAA!!

[Dick Jones OCP]

$5500.00 650+hp 2 hours run time since freshen...less than 5 hours total since NEW...ALL NEW. I've seen dyno time that was harder on a motor than what this one has seen.
I'll put this motor against any comparable DNE, or any other builder's motor.
$5500.00 is barely enough to cover the parts at the prices I was able to shop for. Without connections would be even more. That dosen't include machine work, nor dose it include my labor. There's as much attention to detail in this motor as any. Probably more, since I was building it for myself, and not being pushed by a schedule, or the need to make a profit on it.
Figure it out. :D
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9757&stc=1
Ok Big Baller Topfuel motor builder. Post up your CI, CR, and octane run in that mill, and I think you'll find more than a couple DNE or other professional built motors that will beat your "seat of the pants dyno rated" 650hp. While your at it, why don't you post up your dyno sheet or timeslips to back how stout your almighty mill is.
One last thing.... If you're mill is such a badass piece, how come you tore it down for "freshining" after 3hrs?
You're a drama monger on here and in gearheads, and your overinflated self opinion has grown trite. If you don't have anything relevant to the topic of the thread, don't put a narcisistic spin on it to direct attention to your ego.
SMACK BIATCH!

[disco_charger]

Ok Big Baller Topfuel motor builder. Post up your CI, CR, and octane run in that mill, and I think you'll find more than a couple DNE or other professional built motors that will beat your "seat of the pants dyno rated" 650hp. While your at it, why don't you post up your dyno sheet or timeslips to back how stout your almighty mill is.
One last thing.... If you're mill is such a badass piece, how come you tore it down for "freshining" after 3hrs?
You're a drama monger on here and in gearheads, and your overinflated self opinion has grown trite. If you don't have anything relevant to the topic of the thread, don't put a narcisistic spin on it to direct attention to your ego.
SMACK BIATCH!
This is a pretty bold call out, in light of the fact I believe he has time slips that show him in the neighborhood of 100mph. That's made even more impressive since very few people have been able to really make that hull run well (first hand knowledge). I'm not sure this was a well placed highjack by Steelcomp, but it's not like he's talking smack about a motor that pushed a tunnel boat 65...

[Squirtin Thunder]

This is a pretty bold call out, in light of the fact I believe he has time slips that show him in the neighborhood of 100mph. That's made even more impressive since very few people have been able to really make that hull run well (first hand knowledge). I'm not sure this was a well placed highjack by Steelcomp, but it's not like he's talking smack about a motor that pushed a tunnel boat 65...
I agree 110%
Jim

[steelcomp]

You're right...this might not have been the ideal place for this post, but I thought it might be relevant considering the discussion about DIYers, prices, and performance. I'd really like to sell this motor so I can get going on my next project.
Sorry. :coffeycup

[steelcomp]

:cry: :cry: You're right, Dick. Absolutely right.
Now what? Feel better?? :rolleyes:
Oh, and BTW...what was the relevancy of your post in regards to this thread????
Thanks for your useful input.
Ok Big Baller Topfuel motor builder. Post up your CI, CR, and octane run in that mill, and I think you'll find more than a couple DNE or other professional built motors that will beat your "seat of the pants dyno rated" 650hp. While your at it, why don't you post up your dyno sheet or timeslips to back how stout your almighty mill is.
One last thing.... If you're mill is such a badass piece, how come you tore it down for "freshining" after 3hrs?
You're a drama monger on here and in gearheads, and your overinflated self opinion has grown trite. If you don't have anything relevant to the topic of the thread, don't put a narcisistic spin on it to direct attention to your ego.
SMACK BIATCH!

[Fogged Gullwing]

I've seen the time slips So have BP/CS19/Squirtin thunder/Jeanyus/DJDPlacecraft/MPD Jack and so on. It's good runin Motor. Scott is really meticulous with his stuff so that would be why he tore it down after the short amount of time. He's not trying to feed his ego He's trying to sell a motor. If you don't want to buy it fine But don't give him Sh!t for it.
Later BK

[steelcomp]

I wasn't going to dignify the question with an answer, but the tear down came after plugging the water line and overheating the motor. It cooked the head gaskets, so I tore it down to make sure everythign was OK. Without even questioning it, I had the heads resurfaced, had the block resurfaced and honed, and put in new rings, and a new M 10777 race oil pump. The bearings, pistons, and everything else looked perfect. The motor was completely disassembled, and reassembled. Since then it's only run at the lake one weekend, CBBB one weekend, and 4 passes at Lake Ming. Probably less than 2 hours.
Thanks guys for the back up. :coffeycup

[Cs19]

My opinion is, this isnt the place to advertise an engine thats for sale, or to talk about yours or your buddies engine building skills.
If you dont have anything to add to the actual subject, then let it go.

[steelcomp]

My opinion is, this isnt the place to advertise an engine thats for sale, or to talk about yours or your buddies engine building skills.
If you dont have anything to add to the actual subject, then let it go.
And you're entitled to your opinion! :cool: Maybe you should put in for moderator. :D
My opinion is that this is a puiblic forum on the internet and I didn't hurt anyone or anything. As I said before, I was responding to comments made earlier regarding DIYers, and the cost of a good motor, yes, while trying to move this thing. This thread was started by a disgruntled DNE customer, and went in a lot of different directions, just like MOST threads do. Nothing important was being discussed, it just became a DNE cheering forum, so I don't see the harm done.
Your post has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, nor does it add anything either, except to bring it down more. :idea:
BTW...did you see the apology above? Guess that wasn't good enough. :frown:

[mj680]

I would be one of those customer, it's a race pan DNE got for me and I was not aware until after the motor was installed that there is no dip stick...
Race pans,don't need a dip stick. :2purples: :2purples: :2purples:

[Fogged Gullwing]

no but it's got a sight plug!!!!
Undo the top plug and fill it with oil when oil runs out stop!!!!
I worked for Jeff Johnston @ Billet fab and let me tell you about the oil level questions!!!!!!!
Later BK

[bigkatboat]

Please do your homework! Get EVERYTHING IN WRITING! Do only what you know will work for you! BE SURE TO KNOW WHAT WILL WORK FOR YOU! I need no more work (and I am not spamming here), but you should know how all of your motor parts/ machine work is working for you. MONSTER parts alone, do not make a "bitchen'" motor. Over the past 27 years I have tried to be within a 10% total of my estimate. If your motor builder knows his 'art', he will give you an accurate estimate UP FRONT! Many HUNGRY people 'SHOOT LOW', and end up way off of the price charts. You bring me the parts, and within 3 days I can tell you where we are at! I still don't understand all of the MEGABUX motors that are being sold. You are on the internet, you can look up the retail prices of parts. I guess it all comes down to how much YOU are willing to spend on "name brand dyno time"? Or was it the magazine BS that got you to buy?

[TRG]

an 8K warranty is pretty bitchen thouigh! :notam:

[bruleracer]

Please do your homework! Get EVERYTHING IN WRITING! Do only what you know will work for you! BE SURE TO KNOW WHAT WILL WORK FOR YOU! I need no more work (and I am not spamming here), but you should know how all of your motor parts/ machine work is working for you. MONSTER parts alone, do not make a "bitchen'" motor. Over the past 27 years I have tried to be within a 10% total of my estimate. If your motor builder knows his 'art', he will give you an accurate estimate UP FRONT! Many HUNGRY people 'SHOOT LOW', and end up way off of the price charts. You bring me the parts, and within 3 days I can tell you where we are at! I still don't understand all of the MEGABUX motors that are being sold. You are on the internet, you can look up the retail prices of parts. I guess it all comes down to how much YOU are willing to spend on "name brand dyno time"? Or was it the magazine BS that got you to buy?
ok i agree, you still dont understand, buy the way, we just test them, other people build them, but im glad your a reader. steve brule
westech performance
1-951- 685-3270

[steelcomp]

Huh??? Wha...??? :confused: Please do your homework! Get EVERYTHING IN WRITING! Do only what you know will work for you! BE SURE TO KNOW WHAT WILL WORK FOR YOU! I need no more work (and I am not spamming here), but you should know how all of your motor parts/ machine work is working for you. MONSTER parts alone, do not make a "bitchen'" motor. Over the past 27 years I have tried to be within a 10% total of my estimate. If your motor builder knows his 'art', he will give you an accurate estimate UP FRONT! Many HUNGRY people 'SHOOT LOW', and end up way off of the price charts. You bring me the parts, and within 3 days I can tell you where we are at! I still don't understand all of the MEGABUX motors that are being sold. You are on the internet, you can look up the retail prices of parts. I guess it all comes down to how much YOU are willing to spend on "name brand dyno time"? Or was it the magazine BS that got you to buy?