checking the thrust bearing on berkley

[75jetboat]

I have a berkley 12jf and was wondering if there was an easy way to check if the thrust bearing is going bad.
Also , if I need to replace it i would want to do an overhaul on the whole pump. Whos got the best kits and how much?
Thanks

[NELSON#109]

if it has play, its bad. if its old it might not be a bad idea to just do the overhaul. cheap insurance. check the online prices through cp performanc, eddie marine, rex marine, american turbine / dominator, agressor, legend. all good pumps and all good kits.

[HammerDown]

if it has play, its bad. if its old it might not be a bad idea to just do the overhaul. cheap insurance.
Just a note to the above...always check that "new" bearing. I've gotten a bad new one out of the box. In a hand press a new bearing showed .030 play with just my arm weight! I installed it (prior) to testing, set the front wear ring to Impeller at .020 and drove the Impeller into the wearing as soon as I punched it :cry: . Tom Papp sent me a new Impeller, Thrust Bearing and wear ring (great guy). tests the next Bearing in the same press same arm weight, maybe +.001 (if I recall). I always set my clearance at .018/.020 tom Papp sets up his race boats up a zero to under.005!
Check those "new" bearings! :wink:

[PC Rat]

I sent out my (couple years old) Aggressor pump for some work. The builder said that the thrust bearing was installed backward, and that was not uncommon from the factory.
Brian

[wet77]

I sent out my (couple years old) Aggressor pump for some work. The builder said that the thrust bearing was installed backward, and that was not uncommon from the factory.
Brian
Anyone have a picture of the correct way a thrust bearing is installed :rolleyes:

[Heatseeker]

If I'm remebering right, the side of the bearing with the ball loading slots goes towards the engine. I think. :messedup:

[PC Rat]

From what I have learned, you need to look inside the bearing. If the thrust race is in the center of the outside race then you put the loading slot towards the engine. If the thrust race is in the center of the inside race then you put the loading slot away from the engine.
Brian

[fkeys]

From what I have learned, you need to look inside the bearing. If the thrust race is in the center of the outside race then you put the loading slot towards the engine. If the thrust race is in the center of the inside race then you put the loading slot away from the engine.
Brian
The bearing I have is a ZKL & there is a rib (thrust surface) around the center of the outer race. The application engineer at ZKL wrote...."For a 3307 Double Row Angular Contact Ball Bearing, the connecting line of the raceway-to-ball contact points intersects the bearing axis outside the bearing at a contact angle of 32°. These bearings are produced with a filling slot on one side to achieve maximum load ratings. If axial forces act predominately in one direction, the bearing must be mounted so that these forces do not push against its filling slot."
How 'bout that for some inginer talk :hammerhea

[berk]

The bearing I have is a ZKL & there is a rib (thrust surface) around the center of the outer race. The application engineer at ZKL wrote...."For a 3307 Double Row Angular Contact Ball Bearing, the connecting line of the raceway-to-ball contact points intersects the bearing axis outside the bearing at a contact angle of 32°. These bearings are produced with a filling slot on one side to achieve maximum load ratings. If axial forces act predominately in one direction, the bearing must be mounted so that these forces do not push against its filling slot."
How 'bout that for some inginer talk :hammerhea
i work with engineers, let me interpret the above instuctions: it doesnt matter, but if you must make me chose then this way is best"
interesting about aggresor, doesnt put a ton of faith on their product does it? or maybe they know more than the engineers! (more probably the truth)

[LVjetboy]

berk posted: "interesting about aggresor, doesnt put a ton of faith on their product does it? or maybe they know more than the engineers! (more probably the truth)"
Or not the truth. So in your opinion, berk, the factory pump assembler (or aftermarket pump builder) knows more than the engineer who wrote this thrust bearing spec...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/NTN.jpg
Or since you work with engineers, that makes you a bearing design expert? If an Aggressor pump assembler didn't follow engineering specs that's one thing. To imply engineering specs are bogus 'cause some homeboy put the bearing on wrong? Ignorant.
Granted, the Seloc bible is misleading and contradictory about notch direction as in this figure...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/ThrustBearing.jpg
Where they say, "This notch MUST face TOWARD the pump shaft seal sleeve -- towards the bearing cap -- after installation."[/i]
Note that towards the pump shaft seal sleeve and towards the bearing cap are opposite directions. And later pictures show both directions. Apparantly, "the bible's" not written by an engineer. Duane addressed this inconsistency a long time ago by posting bearings he cut apart showing both styles...inward and outward convergent...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/CutBearing.jpg
Inward left, Outward right. PCrat and fkeys posts are correct. Bearing design does set notch direction, and contrary to homeboy, IS important to bearing life.
"Anyone have a picture of the correct way a thrust bearing is installed"
Yes. Here's the correct way for an outward convergent thrust bearing, notch towards engine...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/OutwardConvergent.jpg
And here's the correct way for an inward convergent thrust bearing, notch towards pump...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/InwardConvergent.jpg
I've highlighted force contact points with small arrows. As you can see, different bearing designs require a different notch direction to keep the notched race unloaded. One last note. You can know the type without cutting. An inward convergent will have a deeper notch on the inner race. The outward will have a deeper notch on the outer race similar to this...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/Notch.jpg
jer

[berk]

well which is better then all knowing braniac? ps are you an engineer?

[75jetboat]

I just boat my boat and the guy I bought it from said he had recently done an overhaul on the pump within the last 50 hours. I just wanna check the thrust bearing without pulling it apart. the shaft has no side to side play or up and down play. should there be play when you move the shaft in and out?

[kojac]

Jer,
good info.
Kojac

[HammerDown]

should there be play when you move the shaft in and out?
NO...!

[fkeys]

well which is better then all knowing braniac? ps are you an engineer?
You don't have to be an engineer to research the facts and follow directions. Hey berk - your best bet would be to ask the questions on a forum like this....and keep an open mind. :wink:

[LVjetboy]

"well which is better then all knowing braniac? ps are you an engineer?"
Nope. I throw bags. As for which is better for our application...not sure. Outward convergent (more common?) may give a more rigid support. I'm thinking either works fine for typical jet boat application if installed right. But thrust or axial capacity depends on direction as with all max fill bearings. In fact, the wrong direction...loading the fill slot race...may limit axial or thrust loading to 1/3 less capacity compared to the solid race.
That's why bearing orientation is important. That's why engineering specs address slot orientation and are in fact, important.
jer

[steelcomp]

Thanks, Jer. Good info. Learned something new. It was a good day after all! :coffeycup

[berk]

"well which is better then all knowing braniac? ps are you an engineer?"
Nope. I throw bags. As for which is better for our application...not sure. Outward convergent (more common?) may give a more rigid support. I'm thinking either works fine for typical jet boat application if installed right. But thrust or axial capacity depends on direction as with all max fill bearings. In fact, the wrong direction...loading the fill slot race...may limit axial or thrust loading to 1/3 less capacity compared to the solid race.
That's why bearing orientation is important. That's why engineering specs address slot orientation and are in fact, important.
jer
oh well i guess that settles it. b the way, not ball busting, but what is throwing bags? i have heard of throwng pots, and throwing pizza dough, but how do you throw a bag?

[LVjetboy]

"...but how do you throw a bag?"
Gently. :D I load airplanes for SWA. One of the few airlines making a profit these days.
Before that an AF helicopter pilot. Also a project engineer in jet aircraft turbine technology. I have a little engineering background (Masters Aeronautical, Bachelor Mechanical) but I don't claim to be an engineer. Project mgmt one thing, doing the math another.
I also don't claim to know the truth about everything. But with my limited background, I have a feel for filtering out BS for what is true. And I certainly do appreciate the limits of what can be known from physics versus what can only be known by testing. Engineering deals with both.
That said, maximum capacity double row thrust bearing orientation is not BS...there certainly is a tested and correct orientation. Should we know this? I'm thinking maybe yes...
jer