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ClownRoyal
02-21-2005, 07:41 PM
After reading the articles in ***boat, it seems like 90% of us will need mufflers or else we will get "hassled, ticketed, and harassed". What are you doing..buying mufflers or taking a wait-see attitude?

Kilrtoy
02-21-2005, 07:43 PM
MUFFLERS ..... :confused: :confused: :confused:
Whats that, No-one had mufflers this weekend.....
but I know its coming up.....

WetWillie
02-21-2005, 07:47 PM
Kilr how load was my boat as we were running??

ClownRoyal
02-21-2005, 07:47 PM
I was down at the channel this weekend and all was status-quo. But come Spring break time I don't want to be turned away at the launch ramp (not talking about Havasu Marina here) and told to go home.
Clu at Magic says to install mufflers, or possibly face an $800 fine. WTF?

Kilrtoy
02-21-2005, 07:49 PM
Kilr how load was my boat as we were running??
I heard it over my outboards and I was at 6k. You know how those ouitboards whine...Its still loud........

LHC30Victory
02-21-2005, 07:52 PM
Well, we finally got out when the wind was not too bad and took some "after" readings on the HO's wiht Rex mufflers. Because of the lack of time to do the whole rpm range we did pre-install, we had to settle on the important figures.
IDLE at 39":
Port motor - before=94 after=87
Starboard motor - before=92 after=87
both - before=95 after=89
IDLE at 50'
both - before=79 after=73
Marina Rules (10 feet?)
both - before=88 after=82
The performance didn't change appreciably, maybe lost 100RPM but due to different loads and weather/sea condidtions, it is not an issue with me.
On my last post about the Marina and its peeps, I had good things to say about Dan and it seemed that the Marina was trying to play nicely. HOWEVER this Sunday they were back to being their usual selfs again. They didn't have me on their tested list so had me retest despite seeing the mufflers on and that I passed w/o mufflers per Dan.
I believe that this guy's name was Jim. He had me start the motors and then asked me if they were idled down all the way. I had to remind him that they were stone cold (he saw me just launch it ). he then took his measurement and told me I failed I turned one motor off and he said I passed
I then got out and looked at his meter while he was writing and saw it was on A scale but FAST RESPONSE and MAX HOLD!!!!! When I told him that I thought those settings were wrong, he began to lecture me about how Marina rules didn't have to follow either AZ or CA law and that if I were to go to a restaurant that had a sign "no shoes, no shirt, no service" they could refuse service to any person. WTF? Didn't they get the message yet?

ClownRoyal
02-21-2005, 07:56 PM
:argue: When I told him that I thought those settings were wrong, he began to lecture me about how Marina rules didn't have to follow either AZ or CA law and that if I were to go to a restaurant that had a sign "no shoes, no shirt, no service" they could refuse service to any person. WTF? Didn't they get the message yet? :argue:
Apparently not. ***boat probably pissed them off even more.

Phat Daddy
02-21-2005, 08:17 PM
Why do HB peeps still launch at that SH#T HOLE if thats how there going to act... I just don't get it :confused:

Kilrtoy
02-21-2005, 08:19 PM
Why do HB peeps still launch at that SH#T HOLE if thats how there going to act... I just don't get it :confused:
I dont get that either :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2:

paradigm shift
02-21-2005, 08:22 PM
After reading the articles in ***boat, it seems like 90% of us will need mufflers or else we will get "hassled, ticketed, and harassed". What are you doing..buying mufflers or taking a wait-see attitude?
Already have them. Not worth waiting for the inevitable to happen in my opinion. It is not a matter of if but when so why wait.

Phat Daddy
02-21-2005, 08:24 PM
Besides the legal battle, the only way for THEM to feel the effects is to avoid continuing to give them our $$$. Come on people :umm:

ClownRoyal
02-21-2005, 08:25 PM
Already have them. Not worth waiting for the inevitable to happen in my opinion. It is not a matter of if but when so why wait.
That is what I am thinking. I plan to get some Imco mufflers installed in a couple of weeks unless I hear otherwise.

Havasu Hangin'
02-21-2005, 08:32 PM
I dont get that either :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2: :hammer2:
You guys did show them a copy of the letter from the land owner (Arizona State Land Dept.) stating that the Marina has no right to restrict loud boats?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/279State_letter_to_marina.jpg
It clearly says that it is up to Law Enforcement...not a bunch of morons.

riverroyal
02-21-2005, 08:33 PM
we will be at black meadow landing all summer,we will never use the havasu city ramps,,,,so my question is do you think the LE will stop me leaving the channel or just cruzing around?,,,will LE hang out in or near the channel just waiting?,,,,05 Magic Deck with 496HO,,,Ive never noise tested it but Im sure its too loud,,,,thanks all

OutCole'd
02-21-2005, 09:18 PM
Clown, There are a bunch of us Magic Peeps talking about which way to go. The problem is there is not much room with the swim step so we are limited on which mufflers will work.
What motor are you running?
If your running a 496, I would look at the Eddie Marine Double XL clamp on's. Very cheap at $130.00 and seem to work well with that motor.
If your running anything bigger, it may be a problem.I have a 525 and still am not sure which route I am going to take. I like the Gibson Power curves, but I am still nervous about reversion with these.
I'm so confused...... :cry:

purrfecttremor
02-21-2005, 09:58 PM
i have the 496ho in my shockwave and looked at the eddie double xl today.130.00.they look ok and seem to do the job.i have clearance problems with the swim step but i think they will work.

LHC30Victory
02-21-2005, 10:05 PM
Why do HB peeps still launch at that SH#T HOLE if thats how there going to act... I just don't get it :confused:
The ONLY reason we launched there is because the Nautical had all the ski racers on their ramps and we couldn't get in, even though we are members with 365 rights :sqeyes:

KACHINA KEN
02-21-2005, 10:11 PM
No mufflers, no intention. It's a CA law not an AZ, if they want a fight I got one for them. I'm 2 for 2 with my lawsuits this year, I'm feeling froggy.

ClownRoyal
02-22-2005, 07:29 AM
Clown, There are a bunch of us Magic Peeps talking about which way to go. The problem is there is not much room with the swim step so we are limited on which mufflers will work.
What motor are you running?
If your running a 496, I would look at the Eddie Marine Double XL clamp on's. Very cheap at $130.00 and seem to work well with that motor.
If your running anything bigger, it may be a problem.I have a 525 and still am not sure which route I am going to take. I like the Gibson Power curves, but I am still nervous about reversion with these.
I'm so confused...... :cry:
I am running a HP500. Clu at Magic recommends the Imco gatlins that will clear the swimstep. These are the bolt on replacements...not the clamp ons. Little to no RPM loss and definately will make me legal. He has installed 4 sets thus far. $1050 installed ($850 + 2 hours labor).
One question though...Magic is having demo dayz at the Nautical in a couple of weeks. Will all their boats be equipped with mufflers? How can they sell boats now that are illegal?

havaduner
02-22-2005, 07:48 AM
No mufflers, no intention. It's a CA law not an AZ, if they want a fight I got one for them. I'm 2 for 2 with my lawsuits this year, I'm feeling froggy.
Ca. LEO's can go 25 miles from their border to enforce this law. My fear, with getting stopped for being too loud will be whatever they else decide to hassle me with while I am stopped. "sir here's your ticket for excessive noise, and while we're at it, would you mind a breath test" Just what I need.

Havasu_Dreamin
02-22-2005, 07:58 AM
I then got out and looked at his meter while he was writing and saw it was on A scale but FAST RESPONSE and MAX HOLD!!!!! When I told him that I thought those settings were wrong, he began to lecture me about how Marina rules didn't have to follow either AZ or CA law and that if I were to go to a restaurant that had a sign "no shoes, no shirt, no service" they could refuse service to any person. WTF? Didn't they get the message yet?
He's right. But the difference is that the Marina is a concessionaire with the State of Arizona residing on State of Arizona land and is not private property as they claim it is. The Marina DOES NOT own the land it resides on! Their lease with the State of Arizona states that they have to provide a public launch ramp. Read the article in Hot Boat, they address the lease issue in there as well as the response from the Arizona State Land Department stating that the enforcement of the noise laws should be left to the Law Enforcement Agencies.

Havasu_Dreamin
02-22-2005, 08:03 AM
Besides the legal battle, the only way for THEM to feel the effects is to avoid continuing to give them our $$$. Come on people :umm:
Not ture. My understanding is that the launch ramp makes up less than 10% of their revenues while they claim it accounts for 90% of their headaches, which very well may be true. I'm sure they get their share of idots on the launch ramp. But there is no need to classify all boaters as being idiots. Some people continue to launch at the Marina because it is the best launch ramp in town.

Havasu_Dreamin
02-22-2005, 08:05 AM
No mufflers, no intention. It's a CA law not an AZ, if they want a fight I got one for them. I'm 2 for 2 with my lawsuits this year, I'm feeling froggy.
You'll lose if you get cited by a CA cop due to reciprocal agreements. But I applaud you for trying.

Havasu Cig
02-22-2005, 10:01 AM
Another reason I went to O/B's. No noise, or length issues for me now. I don't go to havasu to get hassled and it is to bad it has come to this.

Havasu Cig
02-22-2005, 10:01 AM
...and I still will not use the Marina.

Havasu_Dreamin
02-22-2005, 10:02 AM
Another reason I went to O/B's. No noise, or length issues for me now. I don't go to havasu to get hassled and it is to bad it has come to this.
You sell the cig?

Havasu Cig
02-22-2005, 10:16 AM
You sell the cig?
Yep, it should be in Maryland by now left last tuesday. I bought a 28 Skater with 300x's and a pontoon boat.

Havasu_Dreamin
02-22-2005, 10:23 AM
Yep, it should be in Maryland by now left last tuesday. I bought a 28 Skater with 300x's and a pontoon boat.
Heard about the Pontoon Boat, we even checked them out at the LA show since we knew you two bought one. So, back to the whackers! Good deal.

Havasu Cig
02-22-2005, 10:28 AM
Heard about the Pontoon Boat, we even checked them out at the LA show since we knew you two bought one. So, back to the whackers! Good deal.
Yep, we will be low profile now. Might be nice compared to having the rangers follow you down to the ramp. :cool:

CJ
02-22-2005, 01:12 PM
Have not installed mufflers on my 525 yet but will soon.
But to let you all know, I just purchased an annual pass at Windsor for $100. I will not be visiting the Marina this year! They were nice to me when there was not another boat around, but I would bet my life the busy times are going to be hell. They will make a point of their power.

OutCole'd
02-22-2005, 04:40 PM
One question though...Magic is having demo dayz at the Nautical in a couple of weeks. Will all their boats be equipped with mufflers? How can they sell boats now that are illegal?
Great question. We went over this a while back. I think there are only 3 or 4 builders that are only selling their boats equipped with mufflers. I am sure all of them will do it, it would just be another option. I would think the builders putting them on as standard raised the boat price by the muffler cost.

Not So Fast
02-22-2005, 05:00 PM
good posts OC'ed. again on pretty darn good info, the SBSD is not going to be hassling boats on noise alone, be an a--hole and it will be added to your citation. most of these le's are boat guys that live in havasu. windsor ramps are in the same boat (no pun intended), they are over extended as it is and they would enforce arizona law which is the same as it has been. i cant speak for other agencies ( USCG, BLM Rangers ect.). it just seems to me that these tests to be valid and not subject to litigation are going to be very hard to conduct what with ambient noise affecting the tests. i for one am waiting and seeing, if you boat in Cally lakes thats a different story i guess, just my 2 cents, and if needed then the eddie dbl X clamp-ons will do!! NSF :2purples:

Havasu Cig
02-22-2005, 05:10 PM
I am not so sure about windsor. The boat I just sold had 500's and Corsa mufflers. The boats was not very loud at all and I had a ranger at Windsor tell me it would be close as to if I would be allowed to launch there next season. My friends Tiger with blown 1000's and no mufflers he said would not have a chance at all. This was near the end of last season and He said changes were coming.

riverroyal
02-22-2005, 05:11 PM
so back to my question,,,,will LE chase us down or wait til we start the boats?(not at a launch ramp),,if I see a LE boat I can always just turn it off and float awhile,or turn the boat in such a manner to push the sound away from them,,,,,my guess is LE wont hassle anyone while they are moving or idling,I really dont think they will want to spend the time doing that,,,,most of the LE out there propbably think theres better things to do than hassle us for noise,theres enough drunk fools out there to keep them busy....also if I drink my wife drives,so I guess its her noise ticket?ha

JB in so cal
02-22-2005, 05:29 PM
so back to my question,,,,will LE chase us down or wait til we start the boats?(not at a launch ramp),,if I see a LE boat I can always just turn it off and float awhile,or turn the boat in such a manner to push the sound away from them,,,,,my guess is LE wont hassle anyone while they are moving or idling,I really dont think they will want to spend the time doing that,,,,most of the LE out there propbably think theres better things to do than hassle us for noise,theres enough drunk fools out there to keep them busy....also if I drink my wife drives,so I guess its her noise ticket?ha
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

Havasu Cig
02-22-2005, 05:43 PM
so back to my question,,,,will LE chase us down or wait til we start the boats?(not at a launch ramp),,if I see a LE boat I can always just turn it off and float awhile,or turn the boat in such a manner to push the sound away from them,,,,,my guess is LE wont hassle anyone while they are moving or idling,I really dont think they will want to spend the time doing that,,,,most of the LE out there propbably think theres better things to do than hassle us for noise,theres enough drunk fools out there to keep them busy....also if I drink my wife drives,so I guess its her noise ticket?ha
I would guess it depends on the cop. I was stopped and kicked out of the channel last year in the Cig for being 2' over the limit. This while all kinds of stupid $hit is going on around us. I have had some bad experiences out there with Havasu P.D. stopping us for B.S reasons. I think that going to a smaller boat will help though. The rest of the L.E. angencies out there have been pretty cool.

KACHINA KEN
02-22-2005, 05:55 PM
You'll lose if you get cited by a CA cop due to reciprocal agreements. But I applaud you for trying.
I'm not afraid of losing, I just want to get the ball rolling to turn this piece of shit law over.

Boatcop
02-22-2005, 06:33 PM
i cant speak for other agencies ( USCG, BLM Rangers ect.).
There are no Federal Regulations regarding noise levels for boats, except for Park regulations in individual National Parks. So those entities you mention don't factor into the equation.
I really can't say how each State, County or City Agency will be enforcing noise laws. All I can tell you is how we do it.
If you are running straight pipes, no mufflers whatsoever, or switchable systems in the "off" setting, you will be stopped, ticketed and sent to the trailer. Period! No discussion. No excuses. No BS. It's not like muflers are a new requirement. In both states they've been required for over 30 years.
Regarding the noise levels.
We are not going to set up check stations or check every boat that goes by. If we hear you coming from a mile away, we'll probably whip out the meter and test as you go by. Or if we get a complaint about a specific boat, we'll keep an eye out for that boat and test it as it goes by. Keep in mind that it's still 86db @ 50 feet in Arizona.
We won't stop for a boat that's a few dbs over the limit. But if one comes screaming by in the mid 90s, they will, at the least, get stopped and warned that they're not legal, and told to keep their foot out of it, or take it off the water.
Now if they're in the high 90s to more than a 100 dbs they'll get cited for the excess noise, and ordered off the water. The quietest boat we cited last year was for 96dbs. The loudest was 110.
Remember that noise doubles for every 3db increase. 89 twice as loud as 86. 92 twice as loud as 89, 95 twice as loud as 92, etc. So our self imposed enforcement level is far from nitpicking.
There's more important things to worry about than noise. The only reason we do it is because the public complains to my boss. My boss says do something about it, and we do. Or we find another job.
For those with the mantra that "Loud Boats Save Lives" nothing could be further from the truth.
Not only do other boats need to hear you coming, but you need to hear other boats coming. Every time I, or the rescue boats have a Code 3 run to go and try to save someone's life, there's at least a half dozen boats that will not get out of our way, because they can't hear the siren.
It may be your best friend that I'm going to help. Would YOU want to be responsible for my delay?
The ones who get "hassled" are the ones who push the issue and flaunt their illusions of grandeur by trying to have the loudest boat on the lake. Those who are boating reasonably and responsibly rarely get a second look.

riverroyal
02-22-2005, 07:15 PM
that was a perfect answer,thanks boat cop,,,a no B.S. answer,I hope we get to meet this summer,over a beer of coarse!......or if your workin then stop by for soda or a snack,our boat allways has a open invite,,,,,kinda sounds like im ass kissing,Im not,I just appreciate a straight up real answer,,,,,I can sleep better know(if the rain doesnt keep me up)

ClownRoyal
02-22-2005, 07:51 PM
I am not so sure about windsor. The boat I just sold had 500's and Corsa mufflers. The boats was not very loud at all and I had a ranger at Windsor tell me it would be close as to if I would be allowed to launch there next season. My friends Tiger with blown 1000's and no mufflers he said would not have a chance at all. This was near the end of last season and He said changes were coming.
I would like to know how any LE will be able to test at the Windser boat ramp. On a busy weekend the line to get in is backed up to highway 95. If tests are conducted when you launch you may as well forget it. You will be waiting 5 hours to launch your boat...or told to go home. The launch ramp at Windser will be a total ClusterF__ (it already is but ...).
Boatcop..."Or if we get a complaint about a specific boat, we'll keep an eye out for that boat and test it as it goes by".
Who is doing the complaining? If you want a nice lake to ski in or fish it on a Saturday then perhaps LHC is not the place.

Havasu Hangin'
02-22-2005, 07:53 PM
How do we get Boatcop to rub off on Havasu LE?
:D

KACHINA KEN
02-22-2005, 09:34 PM
The ones who get "hassled" are the ones who push the issue and flaunt their illusions of grandeur by trying to have the loudest boat on the lake. Those who are boating reasonably and responsibly rarely get a second look.
Dont want to be loud Alan, could care less about being loud to be honest. Just dont like be told what to do. I pay taxes and all the other usual horseshit you hear from folks and the last thing I want to be subjected to is a law created by a non powerboat owner designed to persecute powerboat owners. No mufflers for me, I'll take litigation. I turn this thing over I'll be a ****in hero. :D

Boatcop
02-23-2005, 05:35 AM
Who is doing the complaining? If you want a nice lake to ski in or fish it on a Saturday then perhaps LHC is not the place.
In the case of my area it's people who camp and live along the River.
And why should people who want to fish and ski be made to go somewhere else? Their Boat Registration fees and gas taxes pay for lake amenities the same as yours.
The key to all of this is courtesy and respect for others. In the grand scheme of things lake lice, fishing boats, ski boats, family cruisers, etc. far outnumber so called hot boats. And they contribute more to Lake improvement in AZ.
The same thing could be said to the hot boaters. If you don't like the laws, then don't boat here. Illegal activity should not push out legal activity.

Havasu_Dreamin
02-23-2005, 07:18 AM
I'm not afraid of losing, I just want to get the ball rolling to turn this piece of shit law over.
I agree! The law is totally bogus and what occurs at the marina is worse yet!

ClownRoyal
02-23-2005, 07:37 AM
In the case of my area it's people who camp and live along the River.
And why should people who want to fish and ski be made to go somewhere else? Their Boat Registration fees and gas taxes pay for lake amenities the same as yours.
The key to all of this is courtesy and respect for others. In the grand scheme of things lake lice, fishing boats, ski boats, family cruisers, etc. far outnumber so called hot boats. And they contribute more to Lake improvement in AZ.
The same thing could be said to the hot boaters. If you don't like the laws, then don't boat here. Illegal activity should not push out legal activity.
Boatcop - I am not going to argue with you. :argue: As you say the lake is open to anyone who wants to use it.
The intent of this thread was to find out what ***boaters are doing about the new LE procedures and if they are planning on getting mufflers or taking a wait-see attitude.

Rock-it man
02-23-2005, 08:36 AM
There are no Federal Regulations regarding noise levels for boats, except for Park regulations in individual National Parks. So those entities you mention don't factor into the equation.
I really can't say how each State, County or City Agency will be enforcing noise laws. All I can tell you is how we do it.
If you are running straight pipes, no mufflers whatsoever, or switchable systems in the "off" setting, you will be stopped, ticketed and sent to the trailer. Period! No discussion. No excuses. No BS. It's not like muflers are a new requirement. In both states they've been required for over 30 years.
Regarding the noise levels.
We are not going to set up check stations or check every boat that goes by. If we hear you coming from a mile away, we'll probably whip out the meter and test as you go by. Or if we get a complaint about a specific boat, we'll keep an eye out for that boat and test it as it goes by. Keep in mind that it's still 86db @ 50 feet in Arizona.
We won't stop for a boat that's a few dbs over the limit. But if one comes screaming by in the mid 90s, they will, at the least, get stopped and warned that they're not legal, and told to keep their foot out of it, or take it off the water.
Now if they're in the high 90s to more than a 100 dbs they'll get cited for the excess noise, and ordered off the water. The quietest boat we cited last year was for 96dbs. The loudest was 110.
Remember that noise doubles for every 3db increase. 89 twice as loud as 86. 92 twice as loud as 89, 95 twice as loud as 92, etc. So our self imposed enforcement level is far from nitpicking.
There's more important things to worry about than noise. The only reason we do it is because the public complains to my boss. My boss says do something about it, and we do. Or we find another job.
For those with the mantra that "Loud Boats Save Lives" nothing could be further from the truth.
Not only do other boats need to hear you coming, but you need to hear other boats coming. Every time I, or the rescue boats have a Code 3 run to go and try to save someone's life, there's at least a half dozen boats that will not get out of our way, because they can't hear the siren.
It may be your best friend that I'm going to help. Would YOU want to be responsible for my delay?
The ones who get "hassled" are the ones who push the issue and flaunt their illusions of grandeur by trying to have the loudest boat on the lake. Those who are boating reasonably and responsibly rarely get a second look.
I come to Havasu for just the big PokerRuns down from Oregon.Its a 2500 mile trip and don't want to be kicked off the lake. I have Gattlins on a single Eng Datona 26 but I am still over the limit.I have a blown 598 and will have it pumped up to 1600 + HP for the Poker Run in April ( Desert Storm) Am just there for a few days .I launch at Windser It cost me aprox $5,000. + there for my fun and don't want to waste a trip Will I be hassled at Windser or on the Lake There is NO WAY to make my boat pass the sound limits.
Thanks ROCKIT MAN

Essex502
02-23-2005, 08:43 AM
I come to Havasu for just the big PokerRuns down from Oregon.Its a 2500 mile trip and don't want to be kicked off the lake. I have Gattlins on a single Eng Datona 26 but I am still over the limit.I have a blown 598 and will have it pumped up to 1600 + HP for the Poker Run in April ( Desert Storm) Am just there for a few days .I launch at Windser It cost me aprox $5,000. + there for my fun and don't want to waste a trip Will I be hassled at Windser or on the Lake There is NO WAY to make my boat pass the sound limits.
Thanks ROCKIT MAN
Rockit Man - Participating in Coast Guard sanctioned races or regattas you are except from the noise standards - at least as far as California is concerned and I believe in Arizona as well. Come on down for the Poker Runs if they are sanctioned.

LUVNLIFE
02-23-2005, 09:10 AM
Just a quick question as I think I am confused a little. Are all boats required to have mufflers now regardless if you are below 88bda, or only if you are above to quiet the boat down. Thanks

Dave C
02-23-2005, 09:14 AM
Face it the pleasure boaters and fisherman far outnumber us ***boaters. All it takes is one crybaby to get LE to enforce the rules. They have just as much right to be there as we do.
BC makes a good point. These rules have been on the books for 30 years. If we are respectful of others at the lake, we won't get hassled.
The people who flaunt it by having overly-loud boats (100+) are going to (or have) ruin it for the rest of us. Now CA has this over-burdensome law, thanks to those that flaunt it. :hammerhea
In the case of my area it's people who camp and live along the River.
And why should people who want to fish and ski be made to go somewhere else? Their Boat Registration fees and gas taxes pay for lake amenities the same as yours.
The key to all of this is courtesy and respect for others. In the grand scheme of things lake lice, fishing boats, ski boats, family cruisers, etc. far outnumber so called hot boats. And they contribute more to Lake improvement in AZ.
The same thing could be said to the hot boaters. If you don't like the laws, then don't boat here. Illegal activity should not push out legal activity.

Havasu Cig
02-23-2005, 09:22 AM
[QUOTE=ClownRoyal]I would like to know how any LE will be able to test at the Windser boat ramp. On a busy weekend the line to get in is backed up to highway 95. If tests are conducted when you launch you may as well forget it. You will be waiting 5 hours to launch your boat...or told to go home. The launch ramp at Windser will be a total ClusterF__ (it already is but ...).
I have a feeling they will be profiling boats. It seems as if they do that already. If it looks loud they will test you. I always got a lot of attention in the Cig even though it was not loud. I have seen some people do some stupid $hit in family type boats and they don't look twice at them. If you roll up in a 38' performance boat you better not do anything wrong.

Keith E. Sayre
02-23-2005, 09:23 AM
I'm guessing that about 1 in 4 of our customers is requesting mufflers.
I speak with the boys at Windsor Beach daily and they don't have any
intentions of hassling folks about the noise. Don't have any money in
the budget for a db meter either!
I can appreciate the folks at the river wanting to be able to have peace and
quiet, but 40 years ago, the "hot boaters" brought their loud boats to the
river which was 300 miles from home. They did so because they didn't want
to disturb everyone at the local lakes etc. Now, 40 years later, the old grey haired waste of skin that wanted it quiet back home, now wants to come to
the river in his new pusher and he wants it quiet here too. Sad and I know
that I'm beating a dead horse but you Cali people should have stood up to
your ultra liberal non boating tree huggers. Because now, I have to abide
by rules that I didn't get to vote for or against and I don't live in California. The land where the few rule the many. Special interests are ruining our country.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats

Havasu_Dreamin
02-23-2005, 09:27 AM
Sad and I know that I'm beating a dead horse but you Cali people should have stood up to your ultra liberal non boating tree huggers. Because now, I have to abide by rules that I didn't get to vote for or against and I don't live in California. The land where the few rule the many. Special interests are ruining our country.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats
Excellent Post Keith! I agree, we as performance boaters did not try and fight this enough.

Havasu Cig
02-23-2005, 09:36 AM
Good post keith.

Boatcop
02-23-2005, 12:12 PM
Rockit Man - Participating in Coast Guard sanctioned races or regattas you are except from the noise standards - at least as far as California is concerned and I believe in Arizona as well. Come on down for the Poker Runs if they are sanctioned.
Not necessarily.
The Coast Guard permits say that "All applicable State and Local regulations will be followed." The only way noise limits or muffler requirements will be exempted is if the permit application requests it, and if they show that it's necessary for the type of event. And it's not just the Coast Guard that decides what requirements are for each event.
They send out scoping letters to all interested parties for their input on a particular event application. Arizona Game and Fish, California Fish and Game, US Corps of Engineers, US Fish and Wildlife, Bureau of Reclamation, etc. All effected Counties, Cities, State and Federal Agencies have a chance to put in their views on a particular event.
And believe me. The Coast Guard listens.
Circle races, drag races and the like will normally be granted the noise/muffler exemption request, since they are speed contests. Since Poker Run organizers always say that "This event is just a friendly Poker Run and NOT a race or speed contest", those exepmtions probably won't be granted.
Again, the only reason I'm on here is to educate boaters on the law, and how WE in my agency will apply it on the Strip and other La Paz waterways. I can't speak for any other State, County, or City Department on how they do things or intend to do things.
I want everyone to be able to enjoy the River and Lakes, and do so without being hassled or unnecessarily disturbed by other users or us.
As I said before - safe, responsible, and courteous boaters won't garner a second look from us.

460 jus getn it
02-23-2005, 12:58 PM
i have a 18ft jet with a 460 ford and ot headers. im planning on going to havazoo for spring break. my ? is should i be worried about this hole noise law and having mufflers. ..................

jackpunx
02-23-2005, 01:02 PM
Not necessarily.
As I said before - safe, responsible, and courteous boaters won't garner a second look from us.
this has been my experience so far ;)
thanks BC

Essex502
02-23-2005, 01:34 PM
i have a 18ft jet with a 460 ford and ot headers. im planning on going to havazoo for spring break. my ? is should i be worried about this hole noise law and having mufflers. ..................
Be worried. Very, very worried. You can't launch at Lake Havasu Marina with that setup. If you launch very early in the day you might be able to launch at Windsor before it fills up. If you're staying at the Nautical Inn you will be able to use their ramp. If you want a small ramp you could try Site Six for free. But...you will be attracting attention from the "man".

Essex502
02-23-2005, 01:42 PM
Not necessarily.
The Coast Guard permits say that "All applicable State and Local regulations will be followed." The only way noise limits or muffler requirements will be exempted is if the permit application requests it, and if they show that it's necessary for the type of event. And it's not just the Coast Guard that decides what requirements are for each event.
They send out scoping letters to all interested parties for their input on a particular event application. Arizona Game and Fish, California Fish and Game, US Corps of Engineers, US Fish and Wildlife, Bureau of Reclamation, etc. All effected Counties, Cities, State and Federal Agencies have a chance to put in their views on a particular event.
And believe me. The Coast Guard listens.
Circle races, drag races and the like will normally be granted the noise/muffler exemption request, since they are speed contests. Since Poker Run organizers always say that "This event is just a friendly Poker Run and NOT a race or speed contest", those exepmtions probably won't be granted.
Again, the only reason I'm on here is to educate boaters on the law, and how WE in my agency will apply it on the Strip and other La Paz waterways. I can't speak for any other State, County, or City Department on how they do things or intend to do things.
I want everyone to be able to enjoy the River and Lakes, and do so without being hassled or unnecessarily disturbed by other users or us.
As I said before - safe, responsible, and courteous boaters won't garner a second look from us.
The kind of Poker Run that Rockit Man attends isn't the friendly, informal gathering that you mention but big bucks, well advertised events.
The following provisions are part of the California law that went into effect as part of AB1555:
Navigation Code is amended to read: 654. (a) The exhaust of every internal combustion engine used on any motorized recreational vessel shall be effectively muffled at all times to prevent any excessive or unusual noise and as may be necessary to comply with Section 654.05. (b) This section does not apply to motorized recreational vessels competing under a local public entity or United States Coast Guard permit in a regatta, in a boat race, while on trial runs, or while on official trials for speed records during the time and in the designated area authorized by the permit. In addition, this section does not apply to motorized recreational vessels preparing for a race or regatta if authorized by a permit issued by the local entity having jurisdiction over the area where the preparations occur.
The CA law doesn't mention anything but having a CG permit. I'd bet in a court of law if the permit were to be issued that a boater could beat a noise ticket issued by a CA LEO. For instance...that last Heatwave was, I believe, permitted by the CG and the participating boaters would have been exempt. Now...the sticky issue...if CA is exempt are the boaters now in Jeopardy of other LE entities?

Essex502
02-23-2005, 01:44 PM
I'm guessing that about 1 in 4 of our customers is requesting mufflers.
I speak with the boys at Windsor Beach daily and they don't have any
intentions of hassling folks about the noise. Don't have any money in
the budget for a db meter either!
I can appreciate the folks at the river wanting to be able to have peace and
quiet, but 40 years ago, the "hot boaters" brought their loud boats to the
river which was 300 miles from home. They did so because they didn't want
to disturb everyone at the local lakes etc. Now, 40 years later, the old grey haired waste of skin that wanted it quiet back home, now wants to come to
the river in his new pusher and he wants it quiet here too. Sad and I know
that I'm beating a dead horse but you Cali people should have stood up to
your ultra liberal non boating tree huggers. Because now, I have to abide
by rules that I didn't get to vote for or against and I don't live in California. The land where the few rule the many. Special interests are ruining our country.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats
Keith - I was out at Windsor last year and the Rangers were there and doing preliminary testing. They most assuredly had a decibel meter and knew how to use it. I have on tape my conversation with the officers about their plans and they said - at that time - that they were going to begin testing this year and warning the offenders. PM me if you want the officer's name that I talked to. He monitors this board.

Boatcop
02-23-2005, 03:09 PM
The kind of Poker Run that Rockit Man attends isn't the friendly, informal gathering that you mention but big bucks, well advertised events.
The following provisions are part of the California law that went into effect as part of AB1555:
Navigation Code is amended to read: 654. (a) The exhaust of every internal combustion engine used on any motorized recreational vessel shall be effectively muffled at all times to prevent any excessive or unusual noise and as may be necessary to comply with Section 654.05. (b) This section does not apply to motorized recreational vessels competing under a local public entity or United States Coast Guard permit in a regatta, in a boat race, while on trial runs, or while on official trials for speed records during the time and in the designated area authorized by the permit. In addition, this section does not apply to motorized recreational vessels preparing for a race or regatta if authorized by a permit issued by the local entity having jurisdiction over the area where the preparations occur.
The CA law doesn't mention anything but having a CG permit. I'd bet in a court of law if the permit were to be issued that a boater could beat a noise ticket issued by a CA LEO. For instance...that last Heatwave was, I believe, permitted by the CG and the participating boaters would have been exempt. Now...the sticky issue...if CA is exempt are the boaters now in Jeopardy of other LE entities?
I know what you're saying about being exempt if permitted by the CG or other entity. That California Law, and others have been discussed.
Arizona has similar language:
Muffling Devices ARS 5-336.C.
All watercraft actually competing in a regatta, boat race or official trials for speed records, and within the time limits authorized by the sanctioning body of such event are exempt from this section. Permits designating place and time limits are required and shall be issued by the department prior to the testing of watercraft on the water when sufficient evidence is provided by the applicant that such watercraft is actually entered in an event sanctioned by a national or regional organization having jurisdiction over the event.
It all boils down to what the CG permit stipulates. If it says "All state and local regulations must be adhered to" than the permit doesn't authorize ANY operation outside of state law, and those statutes are moot.
Not to argue the point, but I have well, ...let's say... just a little more information than most.
If the Poker runs want to call themselves races, and get the required race insurance, emergeny response standby, course closure, safety vessels, and everything else that goes with it, more power to them.
But since they adamantly deny (at least in public) that their event has anything to do with racing or speed contests, then they have to live within the parameters of their permit. They can't have it both ways.

396_WAYS_TO_SPIT
02-23-2005, 06:14 PM
This is GAY!!!!!! Everytime someone want to have harmless fun some a$$**** wants to put an end to it! WHY?????? I thought this was good ole america, the land of the free!!! Well its getting to be a terrible place to live. They close alot of places to ride quads and bikes now this bull$hit! Where do they expect people to have good fun. I can understand about noise at 2am but in the middle of the day! Come on give me a break. They might as well build a bunch of parks filled with padded rooms and dress us in sraight jackets. And they wonder why crime is climbing.......If people had alot more fun things to do then they probablly wouldnt be out commiting serious crimes :idea: I will keep my dry headers right here in the valley. I will just bring my lake lice out to havazoo and piss them off jumping wakes :boxingguy :boxingguy This just pisses me off!!!!!!!! What about parker? Are they tripping about noise as well??
396_ways_to_make_noise!

shueman
02-23-2005, 07:44 PM
Same "old" dribble...get over it.....

396_WAYS_TO_SPIT
02-24-2005, 12:06 AM
Same "old" dribble...get over it.....
Thats why they have gay ass laws. People like you just say "Get Over It"!!
396

Essex502
02-24-2005, 03:50 PM
I know what you're saying about being exempt if permitted by the CG or other entity. That California Law, and others have been discussed.
Arizona has similar language:
It all boils down to what the CG permit stipulates. If it says "All state and local regulations must be adhered to" than the permit doesn't authorize ANY operation outside of state law, and those statutes are moot.
Not to argue the point, but I have well, ...let's say... just a little more information than most.
If the Poker runs want to call themselves races, and get the required race insurance, emergeny response standby, course closure, safety vessels, and everything else that goes with it, more power to them.
But since they adamantly deny (at least in public) that their event has anything to do with racing or speed contests, then they have to live within the parameters of their permit. They can't have it both ways.
Agreed...but, if the big poker runs don't do the permitting process to allow above legal limit noise output then they will dry up and blow away. The noise laws are here to stay contrary to what anyone would like and we'll all have to learn to live with them.

Essex502
02-24-2005, 03:54 PM
Thats why they have gay ass laws. People like you just say "Get Over It"!!
396
If you don't like the laws as they are written then get involved and work to write them to your liking. What everyone says and what everyone does are too different things. It is easy to stand on the sidelines and complain but when you do and then won't get involved then that's called "bitching".
Get involved and work towards shaping legislation that you can live with. God bless America that we can shape the legislation.

mickeyfinn
02-24-2005, 04:32 PM
I agree that the ticket may be overturned in court. The language reads:
Navigation Code is amended to read: 654. (a) The exhaust of every internal combustion engine used on any motorized recreational vessel shall be effectively muffled at all times to prevent any excessive or unusual noise and as may be necessary to comply with Section 654.05. (b) This section does not apply to motorized recreational vessels competing under a local public entity or United States Coast Guard permit in a regatta , in a boat race, while on trial runs, or while on official trials for speed records during the time and in the designated area authorized by the permit. In addition, this section does not apply to motorized recreational vessels preparing for a race or regatta if authorized by a permit issued by the local entity having jurisdiction over the area where the preparations occur.
It doesn't say that the law doesn't apply IF the permit specifically exempts it. What the law says that boats don't have to comply if it is permitted. What's more if you take a strictly letter of the law approach I think that if the regatta has a permit from local law enforcement and you have signed up for it you may be able to get away for a week or so before the event by claiming that you are "preparing" for the regatta. Nothing in the law states that exemption from noise law has to be approved by the permit. The law reads as an absolute. It basically sounds like a literal interpretation would indicate that any boat participating in any permitted regatta is exempt. This is a stretch, but if someone wanted to spend the money to beat the ticket I think they would win. It is a loophole or technicality that will surely be closed up as soon as it is proven, so not much to gain by proving it unless you get busted during such an event and just feel like bucking the system. I would also recommend that people carry a small tape recorder with them in their boat. If you are stopped in order to be tested or receive a ticket I would suggest that you stop in the main body of water where you can safely be close to the big boat traffic. (the noisier the better). Turn the tape recorder on during the ticket receiving process or the testing. This may come in handy should you later choose to fight the ticket in court by claiming they did not meet the testing requirements due to ambient noise levels. Don't know if this will do any good but I would guess that if someone were to elect to have a "jury of their peers" and made the entire test procedure as outlined available to them and then let them hear a tape recorder done at the time and place you received a ticket that had a tremendous amount of noise in the background I would bet the jury would rule in your favor....could actually be kinda fun.....expensive, but fun.

duffster
02-24-2005, 04:52 PM
Essex502,
What are you going to do with your Sterling to pass the 50ft test? I know we will be over with big blocks.

Essex502
02-24-2005, 05:02 PM
Essex502,
What are you going to do with your Sterling to pass the 50ft test? I know we will be over with big blocks.
Actually, I am going to ignore it. I am 84 dB(A) at idle per the CA J2005 test. The 50' moving test I truly doubt anyone will test to as the specifics of the CA J34 test makes it very impractical to perform it accurately. I don't believe our boat is that loud to attract attention when on plane so AZ LEO's - I believe - will ignore it too.
P.S. The boat is for sale anyway and the next boat will be ordered with mufflers.

duffster
02-24-2005, 07:10 PM
Actually, I am going to ignore it. I am 84 dB(A) at idle per the CA J2005 test. The 50' moving test I truly doubt anyone will test to as the specifics of the CA J34 test makes it very impractical to perform it accurately. I don't believe our boat is that loud to attract attention when on plane so AZ LEO's - I believe - will ignore it too.
P.S. The boat is for sale anyway and the next boat will be ordered with mufflers.
I was thinking the same thing I will also let you know if I find anyone interested in your boat thanks for responding.

Boatcop
02-24-2005, 07:30 PM
Don't know if this will do any good but I would guess that if someone were to elect to have a "jury of their peers"
These violations are "Infractions" in California and "Petty Offenses" in Arizona. No incarceration is called for by this class of offense, so any hearing isn't eligible for a Jury Trial. It would be heard in front of a Judge or Magistrate, and representation by an attorney usually isn't allowed. In the rare cases that it is, notice has to be filed in advance so the State can also be represented by the Prosecutor's Office, instead of just the citing Officer.
As I said before, If the permit states that "All State and Local Regulations are to be followed", it would trump state laws about permit exemptions, since the conduct taking place doesn't fall under the scope of the permit.

ELVIS
02-24-2005, 07:52 PM
I'm beating a dead horse but you Cali people should have stood up to
your ultra liberal non boating tree huggers. Because now, I have to abide
by rules that I didn't get to vote for or against and I don't live in California. The land where the few rule the many. Special interests are ruining our country.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats[/QUOTE]
Well this cali person never voted for Dianne Feintein or Barbra Boxer.....

ClownRoyal
02-24-2005, 07:59 PM
Where are the big guns - the dudes (or dudetts) that have the big-ass Teague or Phaff or whathaveyou engines? Half of the fun of 'channel-ratting' was watching the big dogs go by and listening to what was under the hatch. Is this a thing of the past? What are their plans?

Havasu Cig
02-24-2005, 08:14 PM
Where are the big guns - the dudes (or dudetts) that have the big-ass Teague or Phaff or whathaveyou engines? Half of the fun of 'channel-ratting' was watching the big dogs go by and listening to what was under the hatch. Is this a thing of the past? What are their plans?
I would say it is probably a thing of the past. The Channel is the last place you want to be with a loud, big boat. :mad:

ClownRoyal
02-24-2005, 08:33 PM
I would say it is probably a thing of the past. The Channel is the last place you want to be with a loud, big boat. :mad:
Then they will be giving tickets 24/7. I know you and everyone else on this board knows this...but on a busy weekend the channel is packed from entry point to entry point. Not a piece of sand (rock) is open. And I would say over 50% are illegal as of now. Same with the sandbar, copper canyon, etc. Are you saying now these places will now be off limits without mufflers? It will take an army of LEs to police the noize levels. More then the handful of LE boats we are accustomed to seeing. I don't see it happening.

Havasu Cig
02-24-2005, 08:38 PM
Not saying they can get everybody but they will write a fair share of tickets IMO. I think it depends what kind of boat you are in as well. When we rolled through after the poker run last year it was us in our Gun and we were following a friend in his Tiger with Blown 1000's. They were on him like flys on $hit. We were also hassled the next day at Windsor by a Ranger telling us about the "new enforcement" they would be doing this coming season. The reason I use the term "hassled" is because the comments that were made about my boat running 500's with mufflers. If I was in a smaller boat that did not attract attention i don't think he would have said anything to me.
If you are in a boat that is big and loud your chances are probably better than if you are loud and small IMO.

ClownRoyal
02-24-2005, 08:48 PM
Not saying they can get everybody but they will write a fair share of tickets IMO. I think it depends what kind of boat you are in as well. When we rolled through after the poker run last year it was us in our Gun and we were following a friend in his Tiger with Blown 1000's. They were on him like flys on $hit. We were also hassled the next day at Windsor by a Ranger telling us about the "new enforcement" they would be doing this coming season. The reason I use the term "hassled" is because the comments that were made about my boat running 500's with mufflers. If I was in a smaller boat that did not attract attention i don't think he would have said anything to me.
If you are in a boat that is big and loud your chances are probably better than if you are loud and small IMO.
Point taken.
What strikes me funny and really peaves me off...where is the Havasu merchants or city councel? Don't they know boaters coming over from CA and other locals (which includes alot of performance boats) for the weekend will drop on average $1000 a weekend. Are they all sitting with their thumbs up their A__?

Essex502
02-26-2005, 04:43 PM
There is pressure on the LEO's at Havasu to reduce the boat count on the lake believe it or not. This I got directly from a friendly ranger at Windsor. With Mead and Powell levels down more folks are coming to Havasu and last year was the busiest on record based on launchings. Several agencies are discussing what to do to enforce all laws agressively on the lake.
The merchants care but are powerless to do anything about the laws that are in effect or the arbitrary rules that the Marina has. The Marina manager acts like he is god and to hell with whomever disagrees. Even the Mayor of Lake Havasu won't buck the Marina's policies - legal or not. That's how much power is in so few hands.