Any Idea's?? (Long)

[H8Monday]

I've been reading the 'water in the oil' threads, because I have been chasing this gremlin as well.
Upon changing the plugs last week, I noticed that the #8 Plug was rusty. So I concluded that the water was getting in the oil somewhere in that cylinder. I've read the 'reversion' ideas, and I'm not sure that is what is happening.
Saturday, I drive the boat off the trailer and pull it up onto the beach at Lake Powell. It ran for all of about 3 minutes. Then I took about an hour to set up camp. Tent EZ-Up etc. When I finally got ready to do a little skiing, the boat had been beached for probably an hour and a half total. I hit the key to start the boat, and it turned about half a turn then abruptly stopped cranking. I hit the key once more, just in case it was the damn starter again, and the same thing. The motor was locked up!
Remembering the rusty plug in #8, I removed the plug. It looked as if someone had just opened a beer can and started pouring it out. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/confused.gif (It also gave me the same feeling as I watched the liquid run out) http://free.***boat.net/ubb/confused.gif Water glugged out of the plug hole for nearly half a minute. when it stopped glugging, and started to trickle out, I cranked the motor over and ventilated the rest of it out of the cylinder. Then I figured, '*uck it, I'm at the lake, It's gunna go, or its gunna blow" So I put the plug back in and fired it up. It ran all weekend without a problem, and started everytime without any hint of the mornings drama.
I'm going to Mojave and Parker next weekend, and I hope that it stays together for this last trip of the season. I'm going to tear the motor down (460) for a major improvement in horsepower, over the long expected winter.
Any idea's?? on where the water is getting in? do I pull the heads before Parker? or just cross my fingers and hope for the best?

[racingrascal]

Do you have water in the oil? Do you only have water in that one cylinder? What kind of exhaust do you have? Could water be running back in the cylinder after you shut it off? Or the water valve that cools the exhaust could be bad to???
Andy

[058]

Head gasket blown, They rust out from the raw water. Prob. leaking at the transfer passage at the back of the block. This is common on 460s. As for running it one last time it may leave you stranded, it sounds like there is alot of water getting into the cyl.

[H8Monday]

I have regular log style exhausts, and water in the oil WAS the problem, now its water in the cylinder.
I have been chasing this all season. I pulled the intake, and resealed all of the important areas (water transfers etc)still water in oil.
I pulled one head to change the gaskets, it looked good, so I didn't pull the other head. I resealed the intake AGAIN... and I still got water in the oil.
So I pulled all the shit off of the front of the motor, and changed all of THOSE gaskets, timing chain cover, waterpump coverplate, etc. Still water in the oil.
The head that I did not pull is tho one that seems to be letting water into the cylinder now. (dammit!)
But why so much? and only that one time?
The motor is very tired. It has been run hard for about 8 seasons. It is out skiing about 4 days a week.
You say raw water takes its toll on head gaskets? I guess I should pull that one head before the trip.
Before I tear down, is there any other subtle symptoms that would also indicate a bad head gasket?

[Hallett19]

smoke out of the exhaust http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif, but good luck checking for that, increased water temp sometimes, other than that, you got the other symptoms going on, water in oil and all that water in the cyl., I'll tell you though, head gaskets are fairly easy to do, but I used a marine head gasket first time around rebuilding my 460 and it broke after a few months, I have some good fel-pro racing in there now, no probs so far, and its been over a year.good luck

[H8Monday]

I havn't looked around much, but I know there are different types of head gaskets, ie. copper, O-Ringed, etc. Which type seems to work best in marine apps? I'm just going to put a standard Fel-Pro gasket in for this weekend, but for my major rebuild, what would be recommended for longevity and performance?
I swear...if I check tho oil one more time and find a chocolate shake I'm selling the motor and buying a sail!!

[Cas42]

I had a similar problem last year, I couldn't figure out where the water was getting in. Even had the same problem at the lake, filled 3 cylinders with water...ughh. Everything I checked, checked out ok right up to when I checked the stupid little rubber flaps in the exhaust outlets. They had worn enough to the point that they didn't make a good seal. While at the lake that day, I found a place with a piece of carpet on the beach. Drove up, beached it bow forward and played around for an hour or so. The transom was just low enough where the waves from other boats were filling my exhaust logs.
When I went to start it, I guess it couldn't push all that water out of the logs and i got a little reversion. Result, water filled cylinders. Changed the flaps and haven't had the problem since.

[froggystyle]

I'm with Cas. I think that your water in the oil problem was more like water in the cylinder, leaking past rings into oil, then water in oil. I know of at least two people that had this exact problem and installed either Lightnings or better flaps with inner flaps as well. Or both. You probably have slash cut tips, huh?

[Hallett19]

I used a kind of copper impregnated material for mine, o-ring is just the proces of o-ringing the head with an o-ringed pies of metal in the gasket itself, that and studing the block, which means having the studs stick out as oposed to using bolts and screwing them in through the top of the head, is what alot of race guys do when they have high comp. or nitrous/turbo/supercharger so they can handle alot of pressure, not a bad idea in a boat motor for longevity, but probably not worth it unless you got some extra cash and want someone to do it for you. oh, and don't put a sail, it would be hard to ski people with that setup

[Hallett of a Dream]

This is my interpretation. And I have heard these symptoms time and again. Basically, when you have the bow on a beach it does 2 things. One, it gives the bow the pivot (stationary) point. The transom moves up and down even more so since the bow is fixed and does not allow the boat to "roll" over the incoming waves. The force of water can open the flappers when bobbing allowing water in the exhaust, especially when you take into account the increased hydraulic action of water at the bottom of the hull where the transom forms.
The second factor is when you raise the bow on the beach, you actually lower the engine partially below the water line of the lake. If the engine is below this point, especially the rearmost cylinders, they will fill with water.
I don't know if this makes sense, but if I could put a diagram of what I trying to explain, it might make it easier.

[Cas42]

Hallett,
I know exactly what you're trying to say, I experienced it and it sucked (literally).
This is, it happens more than people realize.

[riodog]

Did anyone think to do a compression test or a leakdown test? This will tell you if you have a blown headgasket or not. At least you will be able to rule out a couple of things.
If you get no answers that way, then you might try hooking a hose to the motor and connecting a gate valve to the water "dump" side of the motor and with the valve covers off, slowly close the valve and see if you can see any "unauthorized" water leaks as the pressure builds in the motor. Sounded good when I thought of it.
the dog
ps. if it's reversion, your comp. and leakdown should show normal.

[H8Monday]

Can anyone give me some expected numbers for a comp check on my BBF? Mr. 460?
by-the-way...thanks for all of your reply's, you guys have come up with a few idea's that had not occured to me.

[skeepwerkzaz]

I am not a Ford guy, but a quick web search should come up with a pile of Ford sights.
I am going to get on my soapbox here for a minute......
1) There is no way the water is coming from the exhaust, you just can't revert that much water and have an engine that runs AT ALL.
2) There is no way you should count on the engine after that. The cylinder that hydraulic locked probably caused some connecting rod/bearing damage and may already have at least a failing/spinning bearing.
3) Water is incompressable and the starter/ring gear tourque multiplication creates a tremendous amount of force on the internals of the engine. (many hundreds of foot pounds)
4) It has got to be the head gasket thast you haven't checked. It is always the last thing you check right? The Intake and cylinder head gaskets are really the only place this quantity of water can come from. Barring anything horrible like a cracked head. Could be a crack in the intake too!
Skeep
Good luck
Skeep

[mister460]

It's not so much how many lbs you have on a comp check, it's that they're all close. I would expect anywhere from 140-170lbs. A long duration cam will lower the number.
[This message has been edited by mister460 (edited September 26, 2001).]

[Cas42]

Skeep,
It's obvious you've never had it happen and I'm not sure you read H8's post correctly either. His engine wouldn't run nor even turn over after he got the water in it. The same thing happened to me except I filled 3 cylinders and no, it didn't cause any internal damage of any kind. I've run the boat and motor for at least 100 hrs since it happened.
I'm not saying this is his problem but it's another area for him to check out. Now, if you don't believe me, call CP Performance tell them you have water in a cylinder and ask them what could cause it.

[H8Monday]

I'm going to go with the "Flappers worn" idea.... along with the Bow-on-the-beach-fulcrum-water-pumping-up-and-down as a followup.
As I said... I have had the water in the oil, and a hint of it in the cylinder as per the rusty plug, but I have NEVER seen so much water in the engine at once. it MUST have been a combination of the ideas you guys have mentioned.

[flat broke]

I'm gonna go with Cas on this one. A couple of years ago when we were running our Eliminator Bubble, we had picked up some bad habbits from watching dad run I/Os when we were little. The boat we had prior to the Eliminator was this nasty tri-hull, but is all my brother and I could afford. Anyhow, we always beached that thing nose in without a problem. The first few times out with the Eliminator we did the same thing but ended up with water up the logs from the forces described above. Even with new inner flappers and clamp on flappers, the motion of the water washing up against the transom would lift the flapper and water would get up the exhaust.
Since then we always moor our boats nose out and have never had a problem since. Bring an anchor (I know its a pain) one of those bungee lines, a spike and another length of rope. Anchor off the bow a couple feet further out than you want to be, then pull the boat towards shore with the other line tied to the transom/ski pole/whatever. Tie that rope off to the spike in the beach and you don't have to worry about a thing. Then when you need to get into the boat and the ladies dont want to get wet, pull the boat closer to shore with the line off the stern(remember the line to the anchor will stretch to about 50' with enough force), hop in, then untie the line to the stern. The anchor line will pull you out to deeper water, where you disconnect your anchor(did I mention the bouy attached to the anchor clip? 8-) and off you go.
Just a thought,
Chris

[skeepwerkzaz]

Ok Guys,
I understand the theory behind the beaching thing.....BUT. If the entire ex-manifold filled with water (which would have to happen to fill a cylinder) then upon removing the spark plug GALLONS of water would have come out, at least what was in the manifold. If the cylinder was full the ex valve would have been open right? Unless he has burned ex valves. This is a head/gasket/manifold problem. I seriously don't think it is an exhaust problem. CP is a good place, but I have gotten alot of half thought out answers from them. They want to sell you new stuff, not fix the old. What # cyliner was it? Have you done a differential compression check yet? If not, and you haven't taken off the head yet, that may be a good next step. You can tell exactly where the leaks are in the engine. Intake, exhaust, crankcase etc.
Skeep

[rstover1]

Originally posted by skeepwerkzaz:
Ok Guys,
I understand the theory behind the beaching thing.....BUT. If the entire ex-manifold filled with water (which would have to happen to fill a cylinder) then upon removing the spark plug GALLONS of water would have come out, at least what was in the manifold. If the cylinder was full the ex valve would have been open right? Unless he has burned ex valves. This is a head/gasket/manifold problem. I seriously don't think it is an exhaust problem. CP is a good place, but I have gotten alot of half thought out answers from them. They want to sell you new stuff, not fix the old. What # cyliner was it? Have you done a differential compression check yet? If not, and you haven't taken off the head yet, that may be a good next step. You can tell exactly where the leaks are in the engine. Intake, exhaust, crankcase etc.
Skeep
I have to disagree here your exaust will cause a cylider or two to fill up with water..I've seen it if the exaust is remotly warm and those flaps are gone or worn out it will suck in water the logs could be cracked on the inside too..