Starter Woes

[81Nordic]

BOAT SPECS: 1981 21 ft Nordic Daycruiser jet with stock 460 Ford. I believe engine is from Hardin Marine. Engine is enclosed. Starter is bottom mounted. Engine rotates clockwise as viewed from front of engine.
PROBLEM: OCCASIONALLY (4 times since May) starter would not engage in flywheel and would make horrible 'whing' noise. Solution would be to just try again and it would engage correctly and start.
MY MECHANICAL ANALYSIS: Starter drive was bad/going bad and a new starter was needed. Due to circumstances beyond my control, time restraint's and lack of tools at cabin and that I had friends coming up the following weekend, I had to take boat to a marine repair shop located in the woods of Wisconsin and requested a new starter be installed.
RESULT: Shop called me 2 days later (8/14) at my home several hundred miles away in MN, and informed me I had a automotive starter in boat and they could only replace legally with a marine grade starter for several hundred dollars. In addition, the engine had to be pulled in order for them to replace it. It could not be snaked out from the front after removing alternator as I felt it could be done. I ok'ed repairs.
I went to pick up boat (Saturday 8/18) and requested a water test. Mechanic cautioned me that starter sounded 'funny'.
The starter sounded terrible. It sounded as if it were too tight or was mis-aligned.In addition after key is released starter seems to make a 'winding down' sound. Mechanic said that starter should break in. He stated he checked and that no shims were needed.
I used boat for 1 day (Sunday 8/19) and cringed each time I went to start it. By end of day I felt that repairs were not satisfactory and called shop. I spoke to owner and informed him that I was going to stop payment on check. I informed him that I want to cooperate with him and I want to have my boat repaired correctly. My feelings is that they installed a defective starter! Starter was purchased from company in CA by repair shop. I feel that this is going to turn ugly. Owner is waiting for mechanic to return from a couple of days off before coming up with action plan. My assessment is that shop is going to tell me I need a new flywheel and I will have to agree to it to satisfy this dispute. (just from a off handed comment from mechanic)
QUESTIONS-HELP!:
1) Was I foolish not to insist on replacing with an automotive starter? Auto starter is about $90.00 vs. over $200. Is there really some marine law that says they can't put auto parts in a boat?
2) Is automotive flywheel the same as jet/marine flywheel?
3) If flywheel is same as automotive, is it a standard shift or automatic flywheel? Is there any differences in years of 460 flywheels? (In the event my engine is not truly a 1981 460, maybe older/newer.
4) Where there ever shims needed when the factory original marine starter was in boat? Could they have been discarded when original starter was replaced with automotive starter?
5) Does engine really have to be pulled in order to get at starter? Anyone have prior experience with 81 Nordic?
5) Any other comments/guidance?

[spectras only]

81 Nordic, let start with the flywheel.Jet boats were equipped with flexplates instead of a heavy flywheels,hence the quicker revving.It's a very light disc with a ring gear welded on.The starters were always a problem on 460's ,since they located very low and always get rusty by water slung by the flexplate.There's always a small amount of water in the bilge.The difference between a marine starter and an automotive one is a metal shroud over the solenoid on top of the starter. This solenoid has a plunger that gets rusty and causing problems not being able to move forward to engage with the flexplate.Fords don't use shims like chev for their starters.The problem with the Automotive Ford starter is ,it's using one of the stators acting as a solenoid and it takes a lot of juice to hold it in to engage.Inside of the starter the heavy copper wire gets corroded thus causing further problems to deliver all the power.The only remedy is to purchase a marine reverse rotation starter that bolt on the top of the bellhousing.Not cheap!,but gets rid of your headache.There should be a small hole on the bellhousing at the vicinity of the starter to spray some lubricant to fight corrosion in the clutch [bendix].Another area for marine application is the alternator that has to be shilded by a screen behind the pulley.It acts as a spark arrestor.These items usually have a marine UL tags for insurance purpose,hence the reluctance by mechanics to install automotive stuff in boats.If the flywheel is cracked ,you can remove it by unbolting the bellhousing ,previously supporting the engine under the oil pan ,and removing the constant velocity joint.Last ,I have a 460 Ford in my 1976 vintage Spectra,and I can remove the starter just by removing the alternator.However you need a long extension to remove the bottom bolt on the starter.
[This message has been edited by spectras only (edited August 21, 2001).]

[iparky]

I have a 460 but not in a spectra, I too had problems with the starter. I did not spend the money on a top mount witch also requires a new flex plate cover.(couple hundred more dollars. My fix was a gear reduction starter by tilton. I spent the big bucks(300 plus) for the marine starter. The big difference is the marine starter is sealed with silicon. To pull the starter I had to pull the exhaust log becouse total engine encloser this was the simplest. I have had the starter now 5 years with no problems. The gear reduction also turns the engine quicker and starts easier with less battery draw. Well worth the money and available through JEGS.

[ponponracing]

That's an easy one. When you install a starter, you have to clearance the starter gear with the flywheel teeth. .035 is good. The problem is that it has to be done when the motor is on the bench. When in the boat, how can you visually see those clearances?
The solution is to try a couple of shims and see if there is an improvement. Add shims till it works good.

[flat broke]

This is going to sound really stupid, but let me ask 81 Nodic a question. Do you have a metal plate between your bellhousing and the block? If not, go to a junkyard, find one for $3 and slap that bitch up in there. We chased a similar prblem for a couple years, always replacing the starter at the begining of each year ($90 is WAAAAY too much for an automotive starter) I used to hate stopping the boat, for fear the bitch wouldnt start. After we put the plate in at the begining of this year it never made that damn noise again. I don't know how you would shim a 460 starter as it bolts horizontal as opposed to vertical like a Chevy. The plate I was refering to is a steel plate that Ford used in their cars and trucks to ensure the correct alignment for the starter as over time, the aluminum of the bellhousing would deflect from starting torque. Hope that helps.
Chris

[spectras only]

Flat broke is right.Someone may have forgot to put the shield back between the block and bellhousing. 460 Fords don't use shims for the starter.

[fryzll]

Hey 81Nordic, It is true that without the inspection plate between the bellhousing and the block you will have problems. Without it the starter drive will ingage to far into the flexplate and will give you some nasty noises. If you dont have the inspection plate dont pull the bellhousing yet, just go to a CarQuest or NAPA and they do have shims for Ford starters in either 2 bolt (yours) or 3 bolt (FE motors and some sticks), they are made by MOTORMITE in their HELP section(I was a parts guy for 12 years, just got sick of dealling with the public). This is an easier way to tell if you do need the inspection plate w/o pulling the bellhousing off first. Im in the process of trying a gear reduction starter off a 96 F250 with a 460 to see if it works on my Challenger. Ill let you guys know if it works. Oh by the way i have to pull my exaust manifold to get my starter off.

[flat broke]

I agree halfway with the last post. The shims will help the in out engagment problem, but the other issue is rotational alignment. hole in the bellhousing is big enough to rotate the starter around in, and the holes for the bolts are usually a little too big as well. This could setup a scenario where even though you can get good in/out engagment, you could be rotated too much towards or away from the flexplate. I have a hoist and can pull the ass of an engine up pretty quick so its not a big deal for me, but if I didn't I would probably try the shims first. Just wanted to let you know not to dispair if the shims didn't do the trick.
Chris

[81Nordic]

Originally posted by spectras only:
Flat broke is right.Someone may have forgot to put the shield back between the block and bellhousing. 460 Fords don't use shims for the starter.
All of you guys have been great help. BUT why did the automotive starter work sooo great without the shims or shield? The auto starter worked 99.96% of the time over the last 5 years. Now when the woods mechanic replaces it with a MARINE starter everything goes SOUTH!
Thanks Again

[SPECTRABRENT]

NOrdic,
I went to gear reduction starter and have had no problems.
I have an R&B Starter that is for boats. THey are in Parker, AZ.
SPECTRABRENT

[jroos]

I use a McLeod high torque mini starter on my 460. Can remove it without taking exhaust log off. It`s a pain with it on to bolt/un-bolt but can be done. It`s an automotive starter. There are shims for Fords but they only correct depth. I would get NEW bolts for your starter, mini starter as stated and the cover plate(if not there) for noise. A marine starter has gaskets(sealed unit) but more importantly the wire connections are sealed as well(ie shrink tubing, silicone,thicker insulation,etc.). I would not recommend one for this is not a commercial craft meerly pleasure. Why spend the bread?

[Squirtcha?]

Pssst Anybody see any coasies around? I use $35.00 lifetime guarantee Autozone starters. I've changed mine a few times over the past three years. Two got wet and corroded (a storm swamped her once and the second one was my fault). The third one was a bad unit from the store. All three replacements were free. They're so cheap that we take an extra one to the lake on weekend runs. Four of us run 460 Fords, this way we're always covered. Can't see spending all that money on Marine starters. On my boat I don't have to remove the engine, alternator or anything else to change the starter. Just pull it off, but I run headers. Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Keep hammerin on those guys they owe you.

[81Nordic]

All advice appreciated. Heading up to the woods on Friday PM.
Final question: Would majority recommend not using an automotive starter if at all possible for safety sake? Remember, I have an enclosed engine and don't always run by bilge blower.

[spectras only]

Nordic,marine or automotive, just stick your nose in the engine bay before you start your engine ,make sure your connections are tight on the starter .You can cover your connections with silicon to minimize the chance of open sparks.If you decide to by an automotive unit,you can fabricate a shield to cover the solenoid/starter connections,and clamp it on.

[81Nordic]

Originally posted by fryzll:
Hey 81Nordic, It is true that without the inspection plate between the bellhousing and the block you will have problems. Without it the starter drive will ingage to far into the flexplate and will give you some nasty noises. If you dont have the inspection plate dont pull the bellhousing yet, just go to a CarQuest or NAPA and they do have shims for Ford starters in either 2 bolt (yours) or 3 bolt (FE motors and some sticks), they are made by MOTORMITE in their HELP section(I was a parts guy for 12 years, just got sick of dealling with the public). This is an easier way to tell if you do need the inspection plate w/o pulling the bellhousing off first. Im in the process of trying a gear reduction starter off a 96 F250 with a 460 to see if it works on my Challenger. Ill let you guys know if it works. Oh by the way i have to pull my exaust manifold to get my starter off.
Found the shim at NAPA. 6 bucks

[BLOWNDRAGBOAT]

Just a couple of comments. First, if you have an enclosed hatch than the coastguard approved marine starter is just one component in many that simply eliminates spark which can cause a heavily vaporized engine compartment (usually completely enclosed and utilizes some sort of bilge pump)to explode. If you have an open hatch like most of us do, than don't waste your money on MARINE parts. Also, fords are pretty hard on starters in SOME cases. I believe thier is an aftermarket peice that can also retard your start timing which decreases the load on the starter and flexplate (you may call it a flywheel but it's most likely a flexplate) and when the motor lights up then it returns to your set timing. It sounds like your so called mechanic may have made a couple of mistakes and he sorta hinted to you when you arrived that It sounded a little funny. If a mechanic knows what he's doing then you shouldn't have EVER heard that come out of his mouth. Without looking at it myself I would say that either the NEW starter has a longer head onit which places the bendix FURTHUR into the bellhousing and in turn would cause it to engage the flexplate much tighter and also cause it to hang up and not "kickout" after the motor starts. Check the starter head. They can vary. Also if you have to much INITIAL timing then it can also palce a much greater strain on the starter and cause a NASTY cranking noise until finally, the starter burns itself up. I really dought you need a new flex plate unless you have heard a ton of gear grinding upon starter activation. Anyway, check the starter head and depth as well as your INITIAL timing. Check on getting a start timing retard box (MSD makes a nice unit). Let me know what it turns out to be. I am real interested.

[BLOWNDRAGBOAT]

One more thing........Unless your running a blower motor or anything over 11.5:1, you don't need a hitorque or racing starter. Remember. You ran the SAME starter for 5 years before you started (no pun intended) having trouble. In your case, I good replacement unit INSTALLED correctly, recheck your initial timing and get a start timing retard box for MSD. Your engine will start SO much easier. IF you need more help, email me and I will give you the number to my shop. PEACE