F*** Arnold The Gov

[Kilrtoy]

Please do not sign his petition that he has going around.... Do not sign anything outside of Target, Sears Vons, ETC.....
He is attempting to screw every public employee in the state......
Without the required signatures his bill can not make the ballot for the vote in November......

[C-2]

Please do not sign his petition that he has going around.... Do not sign anything outside of Target, Sears Vons, ETC.....
He is attempting to screw every public employee in the state......
Without the required signatures his bill can not make the ballot for the vote in November......
I don't get people who instantly sign petitions based upon some flunky-ass, ex-carnival emlployee's few words about the purpose of petition.
Yeah, sure buddy. How about I just give you a quarter, leave me the f* alone! :mad:

[Kilrtoy]

EXACTLY...
he has sent his people into the poor communities and they are at stores offering $5 for a signature....
When asked what are we signing, they citizens are told
DUE YOU WANT $5 or not... of course they due.. they are signing and he was caught on this..
He is playing dirty... :boxingguy

[Ultrafied]

I assume you mean the reform on State employee's pension, not necessarily the budget referendum, education referendum or the re-drawing of the districts?

[NorCal Gameshow]

they try to give the impression that they there as a public service....when the vast majority of clipboard bearing flunkies are having you sign their petitions for $$$$ ...
i'm pretty sure the hairy armpits in front of trader joes do it for free.. :D
what's the dealio with the p.e.r.s???

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Please do not sign his petition that he has going around.... Do not sign anything outside of Target, Sears Vons, ETC.....
He is attempting to screw every public employee in the state......
Without the required signatures his bill can not make the ballot for the vote in November......
Spoken like a true public employee !!!
:D

[6 Dollar Boat]

He is attempting to screw every public employee in the state.....
No, just the ones with DCB's ... :D

[bigq]

EXACTLY...
he has sent his people into the poor communities and they are at stores offering $5 for a signature....
When asked what are we signing, they citizens are told
DUE YOU WANT $5 or not... of course they due.. they are signing and he was caught on this..
He is playing dirty... :boxingguy
Where was he caught doing this? Isn't only to get it on the ballot?

[Kilrtoy]

I assume you mean the reform on State employee's pension, not necessarily the budget referendum, education referendum or the re-drawing of the districts?
more false lies, that are being placed into UNINORMED peoples minds

[Unforgiven]

No, just the ones with DCB's ... :D
DCB's with outboards.........

[Kilrtoy]

Spoken like a true public employee !!!
:D
Chris
Yes I am and I make a whole hellavue alot less than private industry
A HELL OF A LOT LESS

[Kilrtoy]

Where was he caught doing this? Isn't only to get it on the ballot?
northern cali.....
and yes northern cali has some of the poorest parts of the state.....
Yes and unlike other elections it only takes 51% not the 2/3rds

[caroftheweek]

Chris
Yes I am and I make a whole hellavue alot less than private industry
A HELL OF A LOT LESS
I don't want to start anything here but 2+2 is = 5. According to your quote you don't make alot of money. This begs the question of where the boat, truck, and vet came from. Let me in on your secret. I could us a new truck :boxed:

[Unforgiven]

I don't want to start anything here but 2+2 is = 5. According to your quote you don't make alot of money. This begs the question of where the boat, truck, and vet came from. Let me in on your secret. I could us a new truck :boxed:
I have a few ideas but if I say I won't ever get a ride in the new boat, or even a ride in the vette.....

[Kilrtoy]

I don't want to start anything here but 2+2 is = 5. According to your quote you don't make alot of money. This begs the question of where the boat, truck, and vet came from. Let me in on your secret. I could us a new truck :boxed:
Its called priorities, Mine are obvious... Enjoy life while you are here
NEXT QUESTION

[Unforgiven]

Its called priorities, Mine are obvious... Enjoy life while you are here
NEXT QUESTION
next question...like most law enforcement officials....DO YOU OWN STOCK IN CRISPY CREAM DONUTS?????

[Kilrtoy]

next question...like most law enforcement officials....DO YOU OWN STOCK IN CRISPY CREAM DONUTS?????
I screwed up and missed the boat on that one,,, but there stock is down BIG TIME....

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Chris
Yes I am and I make a whole hellavue alot less than private industry
A HELL OF A LOT LESS
Miguel,
Once we get those teachers back down to $20K a year...... :p
We're comin' for you guys...... :smile:
Hehe.... :boxed:
I gotta couple of million dollar contracts with LAPD comin'.... :cool:
That money's gotta come from somewhere !!!!!!! :notam:
CJG
:cool:

[6 Dollar Boat]

Chris
Yes I am and I make a whole hellavue alot less than private industry
A HELL OF A LOT LESS
I don't think private industry hires people to post on ***boat... :(

[Kilrtoy]

I don't think private industry hires people to post on ***boat... :(
You may want to delete that.....
Everyone I know on here is in private industry........
EXCEPT 2 people
and they all post all day long at work........
I'll stay with a small number here, at least 100 people I know post on HOT BOAT FORUMS while at work , in the private sector.... :coffeycup

[Unforgiven]

You may want to delete that.....
Everyone I know on here is in private industry........
EXCEPT 2 people
and they all post all day long at work........
I'll stay with a small number here, at least 100 people I know post on HOT BOAT FORUMS while at work , in the private sector.... :coffeycup
ok, you got me...I work for the biggest utility in cali..controlled by the CPUC, and yes I'm here at work posting, but I'm monitoring the work we just performed (Thats why I'm at work tonight) but...My "friends" that do work for law enforcement use to come over to do "paperwork" and eat dinner and use the computer to do the exact same thing I do...post ...Now I'll give them that it's coldout during the winter, (They do ride "MOTORS") and some of them wore the same uniform you do Kilr..Got to say I did have a safe and quite block around..

[IN2MX]

I don't care.....5 bucks is 5 bucks....I'm signin' it! :D

[cc322]

Most of what he wants to do is out source the P.E.R.S Public Employees Retirment System, this would only effet new hires after a certain date. I have got 14 years with the same utility company and would not be effected but we had a meeting and that would just be the start, my wife works for the county and they are having alot cuts thanks to Arnold.To me he has no place in office, he is a Focker who has gone back on his word, I hate people that lie just to get your vote. And to anyone who thinks its a picnic for public employees its not, my wife has been on a salary freeze for three years and when I go on call I would invite anyone to go out on calls with me at all hours of the night , weekends, holidays to take care of stuff just so people have water. :D

[Blown 472]

Its called priorities, Mine are obvious... Enjoy life while you are here
NEXT QUESTION
gee I thought it was called leeching off the inlaws.
Looks like capitalism at work, don't like it find another job I am sure there are shitload of them out there.

[Kilrtoy]

Most of what he wants to do is out source the P.E.R.S Public Employees Retirment System, this would only effet new hires after a certain date. I have got 14 years with the same utility company and would not be effected but we had a meeting and that would just be the start, my wife works for the county and they are having alot cuts thanks to Arnold.To me he has no place in office, he is a Focker who has gone back on his word, I hate people that lie just to get your vote. And to anyone who thinks its a picnic for public employees its not, my wife has been on a salary freeze for three years and when I go on call I would invite anyone to go out on calls with me at all hours of the night , weekends, holidays to take care of stuff just so people have water. :D
That is the lie he wants you to beleive, HEY DONT WORRY GUYS IT WONT AFFECT YOU, ONLY THE NEW PEOPLE HIRED IN 2006/2007.....
Yes it affects everyone regardles if you have 25 years or 1 day.....

[Kachina26]

I'll stay with a small number here, at least 100 people I know post on HOT BOAT FORUMS while at work , in the private sector.... :coffeycup
Who??? :rolleyes: :D

[GHTRIM]

You may want to delete that.....
Everyone I know on here is in private industry........
EXCEPT 2 people
and they all post all day long at work........
I'll stay with a small number here, at least 100 people I know post on HOT BOAT FORUMS while at work , in the private sector.... :coffeycup
You busted me too :mad: Are you doing P.I. work on the side? :confused: Damn I thought I would be able to pull this off without getting caught. :D :D :D

[little rowe boat]

Please do not sign his petition that he has going around.... Do not sign anything outside of Target, Sears Vons, ETC.....
He is attempting to screw every public employee in the state......
Without the required signatures his bill can not make the ballot for the vote in November......
I am also a public employee and as a public employee,I am also asking PLEASE do not sign the petition, if this makes the ballot many state county and city employees will get screwed

[BarryMac]

I personally wont sign the petition, the thing that I keep thinking back to with out current Governor is all the people that said "wont it be FUN to have an actor as our Governor", all of the sudden it's not so fun, maybe we should have asked the people of Minnesota how they liked having a celebrity as there Governor, we probably would have voted differently...

[GHTRIM]

I'm not from Cali... but I do have a question. Is Arnold a better Gov than "Grey out Davis"? It seem to me he has the state recovering for what Gov. Davis F'ed up. Just asking... Glad I live in NV. :)

[Kachina26]

I personally wont sign the petition, the thing that I keep thinking back to with out current Governor is all the people that said "wont it be FUN to have an actor as our Governor", all of the sudden it's not so fun, maybe we should have asked the people of Minnesota how they liked having a celebrity as there Governor, we probably would have voted differently...
What were the choices???? Mr. Mecha man Bustamonte?

[BarryMac]

I'm not from Cali... but I do have a question. Is Arnold a better Gov than "Grey out Davis"? It seem to me he has the state recovering for what Gov. Davis F'ed up. Just asking... Glad I live in NV. :)
No significant changes, other than he saved us 3x's the vehicle registration fees when he was first elected into office.

[BarryMac]

What were the choices???? Mr. Mecha man Bustamonte?
I'm not saying that the other choices were better, what I'm saying is that there are alot of people that voted Arnold in office with Zero political experience because they thought it would be FUN... Fun for who, for them to tell all of there out of State Friends, "We have the Terminator as our Governator", a pretty freaking lame reason to vote him in, IMO...

[GHTRIM]

No significant changes, other than he saved us 3x's the vehicle registration fees when he was first elected into office.
So you guys still will have to face rolling black outs this summer? Cali is an awesome state but it is Politically F'ed it seems. This is why so many Californians are moving to AZ and NV. Cost of living and job opertunities.

[MagicMtnDan]

The petition issue aside, the governor is between a rock and a hard place. The recent elections brought zero changes in the state legislature. California is (as Dr. Eagle would say) DOOOOOOMED! The Legislature is filled with far left leaning politicians who want to continue spending and spending our tax dollars. They've over spent us into a nightmare that no one person can fix.
Arnold is in a very tough spot and the legislature as a group of lefties is holding his feet to the fire. Everyone in California suffers with these wackos in Sacramento.
Why didn't I buy that property in AZ a few years ago!

[SoCalOffshore]

I have not looked into this, but I would be very interested into the details of his pension reform. As I said, details, facts and figures, not biased comments one way or the other.

[roostwear]

Reality check people! We booted Gray Davis because he Fd over this state, and we voted in Arnold to clean it up. Now, everyone is screaming that he's breaking promises. WTF... do you think someone can magically fix all the damage Davis did without it hurting a little? Or is it that someone ELSE should hurt? That's what it really is... F everyone else, I don't want MY life inconvenienced. Do illegals have the licenses Davis was going to give them? Are the license fees as high as they were when Davis left?
Whiny-ass MFers........... suck it up.

[summerlove]

Please do not sign his petition that he has going around.... Do not sign anything outside of Target, Sears Vons, ETC.....
He is attempting to screw every public employee in the state......
Without the required signatures his bill can not make the ballot for the vote in November......
we public employees work hard for our money, and many of us (not me, I'm not in public safety), put our lives on the line every day. We sacrifice now so that we can have a comfortable retirement, not excessive, but comfortable. I don't understand the governor's hard on for the teachers and the public emplyees that are charged with teaching our children for relatively low pay and for the common bus driver who makes a living on $20/hr, or the firefighter and cops who may pay the ultiate sacrifice.
I am in upper management and earn a solid wage, but I can assure you that I could make more in the private sector. I have dedicated my entire career to the good people of this state, I have earned not only a college degree but also a masters degree in public administration. I chose this path as a career, and to unilaterally take away the hard earned retirement benefits I have paid into the system (yes - I have paid into the system) is wrong and the Gov's scare tactics are a slap in the face to every guy that works in the sewers,drives a bus, repairs potholes, enforces the law, teaches our children, and protects our homes against fires and saves our livs as medics.
Shame on you Arnold!

[summerlove]

The petition issue aside, the governor is between a rock and a hard place. The recent elections brought zero changes in the state legislature. California is (as Dr. Eagle would say) DOOOOOOMED! The Legislature is filled with far left leaning politicians who want to continue spending and spending our tax dollars. They've over spent us into a nightmare that no one person can fix.
according to the state budget office, they anticipate a surplus by the end of the current fiscal year.

[Not So Fast]

When Arnie got elected I think it was because of his MOVIE POPULARITY period. When you have a problem with a budget you either raise taxes OR cut services or programs Thats it. Did you all think he had some magic he would work?? Dont forget that California was crushed by the POWER SCANDLE and that is where the budget woes started in the first place! My $.02 NSF

[BarryMac]

I dont think that anyone is saying that Arnold is doing a bad job, but can you honestly say that he is doing a good job? Yeah Davis f'ed up a bunch of shiat and Arnold told everyone that he would fix it, what has he really done besides repeal the Car Tax, he said that he wasn't going to allow Illegals to get licences, that's fine but look around, how many BC license plates do you see on the streets? A butt load, none of these people are paying car tax to drive on our everly increasing bad crowded streets, they aren't paying any type of smog fees to drive their death traps on the streets that my hard earned money goes to keeping safe. In realilty since he became our Governor he hasn't done anythng to make Caleefornea a better state to live in, we are in the same boat now that we were in when Davis was Governor, no better, no worse, still in debt up to our eyeballs, but hey, that's the American way, right...

[Havasu_Dreamin]

The state finances are in serious trouble, everyone can agree on that I would hope. I have no idea what the solution is, way above my head. However, some "public" employes are way overcompensated for what they do. As an example, I know of someone that teaches PE at a public HS and makes $65k per year and only works 9 months of the year. While I do beleive teachers, as well some other public employees, are underpaid, $65k for 9 months work seems a little excessive to me. Not saying that this is a reason to overhaul the whole system, this is just one example, but something needs to be done about the state budget and the general public will not stand for raising our already too high taxes any higher, so that means budget cuts. Personally, I don't think law enforcement or fire/rescue budgets should ever be cut. There are other areas that need to learn how to operate more efficiently with the funds they already receive. Waste is far too common.
Before you start flaming me, yes, this was posted from work, while other applications are running in the background and I am waiting from them to finish.

[6 Dollar Boat]

I'm not from Cali... but I do have a question. Is Arnold a better Gov than "Grey out Davis"? It seem to me he has the state recovering for what Gov. Davis F'ed up. Just asking... Glad I live in NV. :)
Yes Arnold is doing a lot to turn this state around. What Kilr is so upset about is the petition to change public employees from a state funded pension plan to a self funded 401k that the state matches.
Grey Davis increased the prison gaurd pension to 100% of your highest years pay...why would anyone who is old enough to retire keep working if they can make the same money staying at home.

[mbrown2]

I can understand the biased views to NOT sign it, but if it is a bad thing and the vote goes to the people, why are you worried? Are you worried the voting public will disagree with the biased views which started this thread....just wondering? ;) :confused:

[totenhosen]

From what I'm getting from this thread is that it sounds kind of like what the grocery store chains did to their employees. It seems that the state like the grocery chains is saying that we can't keep on continuing to pay the bloated retirement/pension fund that public employees are getting.

[h2ospdskir]

ok here it goes first us as in cdc next chp then cdf no cut backs just 10%of are pay

[Waldo]

Reality check people! We booted Gray Davis because he Fd over this state, and we voted in Arnold to clean it up. Now, everyone is screaming that he's breaking promises.
Whiny-ass MFers........... suck it up.
He is breaking promises. What about Prop 98??? When he came into office last year, he delayed the funding until this year...we were all cool with that...WTF??? Now he wants to put it on the ballot to get rid of it. We (public edcuation) didn't even get the 2bil he promised from last year.
He is also proposing a "Merit Pay" system for teachers which is totally bogus! I teach in a low socioeconomic area because I want to. The test scores (of which my salary would be based on) are lower than most schools in the state! No other private business I can think of uses the performance of another person to determine the salary of an employee (enlighten me as I have never heard of any). Just wrong and it goes agains years of research on low socioeconomic demographic studies as it relates to test scores and academic ability!!!
Not to mention the tenure system and retirement issues also, but he is trying to f that up as well.
Also, we heard through the CTA that he is paying $20/signature to these petition gatherers. What an F'n Joke!!! He has more money than CTA does for campaigning.
I did vote for Arnold and I did realize that he was handed a state in crisis. I don't think we are that stupid. But he has changed his mind and renigged on promises (actor turned politician).

[Dr. Eagle]

EXACTLY...
he has sent his people into the poor communities and they are at stores offering $5 for a signature....
When asked what are we signing, they citizens are told
DUE YOU WANT $5 or not... of course they due.. they are signing and he was caught on this..
He is playing dirty... :boxingguy
I signed em for free... :p

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Also, we heard through the CTA that he is paying $20/signature to these petition gatherers. What an F'n Joke!!! He has more money than CTA does for campaigning.
And of course, the CTA does not have their own agenda? :sleeping:

[schiada96]

according to the state budget office, they anticipate a surplus by the end of the current fiscal year.
How do we have a surplus when we are still in debt?

[Waldo]

I can understand the biased views to NOT sign it, but if it is a bad thing and the vote goes to the people, why are you worried? Are you worried the voting public will disagree with the biased views which started this thread....just wondering? ;) :confused:
Arnold has WAY more $ to ad campaign.

[Waldo]

And of course, the CTA does not have their own agenda? :sleeping:
Enlighten us HD.

[totenhosen]

How do we have a surplus when we are still in debt?
read his sentence, it says anticipate a surplus by the end of the fiscal year.

[Dr. Eagle]

And of course, the CTA does not have their own agenda? :sleeping:
And if the CTA told him they had paid 1000 dollars per signature, would he have believed them? The unions have their own agenda and are not prohibited by law from telling any kind of fairey tail or out and out lie in the process. I don't believe a friggin word of it. :lightsabe
It is about time the pension system became more normalized with the rest of the real world. when public employees are retiring with 130+% of their salary in their last year of service as a pension, something is broken. :burningm:

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Enlighten us HD.
Ok, it's easy, every group on every side of this issue has their own agenda. To think otherwise is foolish. Everyone is looking out for their own. Government is broke and broken and somehow needs to be fixed.

[Dr. Eagle]

Ok, it's easy, every group on every side of this issue has their own agenda. To think otherwise is foolish. Everyone is looking out for their own. Government is broke and broken and somehow needs to be fixed.
10-4 to that... :devil:

[Waldo]

Ok, it's easy, every group on every side of this issue has their own agenda. To think otherwise is foolish. Everyone is looking out for their own. Government is broke and broken and somehow needs to be fixed.
I totally agree with you but Arnold is only trying to take from public employees and their employers in several different manners, not just one ballot measure.
Also, NEA (National Edcuation Association) sees what Arnold is doing to be unfair as they are giving 10 million bucks to state employees in order to help with their ad campaigns

[Waldo]

when public employees are retiring with 130+% of their salary in their last year of service as a pension, something is broken. :burningm:
This is not true for our district! They take an average of your last 5 years salary @ 95% AND you have to be at least 62 before you retire...doesn't matter if you have taught 30 or 50 years. No more teaching for 30 and collecting 130% as you say.

[Dr. Eagle]

This is not true for our district! They take an average of your last 5 years salary @ 95% AND you have to be at least 62 before you retire...doesn't matter if you have taught 30 or 50 years. No more teaching for 30 and collecting 130% as you say.
That is your district... there are still a lot of state and local agencies that do.
Does your district subscribe to CAL pers?

[totenhosen]

This is not true for our district! They take an average of your last 5 years salary @ 95% AND you have to be at least 62 before you retire...doesn't matter if you have taught 30 or 50 years. No more teaching for 30 and collecting 130% as you say.
95%!!!! Personally I don't think they should get even that much. I don't see it as being much different than the grocery store workers. Over-paid and over compensated. Only ones that deserve anywhere near that much are the police and firemen.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I totally agree with you but Arnold is only trying to take from public employees and their employers in several different manners, not just one ballot measure.
Also, NEA (National Edcuation Association) sees what Arnold is doing to be unfair as they are giving 10 million bucks to state employees in order to help with their ad campaigns
Again, own agenda. These are hot-button issues and inspire impassioned(sp?) debate, which is a good thing. However, ultimately, no ones opinion is going to be swayed based on what anyone says here.

[Waldo]

Does your district subscribe to CAL pers?
CalSTRS (State Teachers' Retirement System)

[Dr. Eagle]

I totally agree with you but Arnold is only trying to take from public employees and their employers in several different manners, not just one ballot measure.
Also, NEA (National Edcuation Association) sees what Arnold is doing to be unfair as they are giving 10 million bucks to state employees in order to help with their ad campaigns
The NEA is going to view anything that changes money to schools or benefits as "unfair". IT is all about money and power, and the NEA wants to keep their perceived position with their "consitiuents". The is as much a special interest group as General Motors or the NRA. It is "unfair" that I pay so damn much in taxes and get so little in return... :devil: Time for a tea party in my opinion.

[Flyinbowtie]

We have had this discussion here before, but I'll offer the following.
Perhaps there is another way to look at this for those citizens in this state who think changing CALPERS by cutting pension benefits is a way to deal with this states' fiscal problems.
A little background..
I live in rural northern Ca. The average price of a house in this county now exceeds $325,000. This would be for a fixer-upper. A deputy sheriff with 5 years experience here cannot qualify for a loan to buy a home within 30 miles of where he works. The cost of living here exceeds that in Sacramento County, where deputies make an average of 25% more money.
Most people working here and living here had an edge, parents who had land in this area, people who were raised here, etc.
Our agency just this month has had a deputy leave to go to Arizona, where he is going to make very close to the same money and purchased a brand new home last fall for $109,000. He didn't want to leave, but he wanted a reasonable quality of life for his family. He could not afford to work in the town he was raised in.
The majority of teachers, police officers, and firefighters in the PERS system could make a great deal more money elsewhere, but chose to serve in the public sector. The low-average pay was offset by a decent pension plan, which they bargained for through the same contractual process that everybody else who works under a contract uses.
That pension plan is something that they contributed to, every payday, and contracted with their employer to match a certain percentage of their income to create, via sound investment and fiscal management, the funds necessary to support them when they retire.
As of 2003, CALPERS calculated that the average peace officer in this state lives less than 5 years after retirement. The job takes a toll.
All of us in PERS knew the numbers when we went in. We knew that making less money in the public sector would be offset when we retire by a decent retirement check.
If the governor of this state manages to put CALPERS out of business, and simply turn it into another 401K manager, the ramifications will be felt all over the world.
1) The people of this state will see a dramatic drop in the overall quality of people who enter the teaching, firefighting, and law enforcement professions in this state.
As has been said, there are folks out there who will take the job for less. Trust me when I tell you you don't want them in that postion when educating your children or your safety are on the line. I sure as hell don't.
2)CALPERS has become the largest self-funded retirement system in the world because of a number of things. One of thiose things is sound fiscal management. Those managers have invested in businesses, real estate, etc, throughout the world. If that cash was to be yanked, every one of us with a 401k would see a drop in the value of our portfolio.
CALPERS is respected in and courted by the financial world because of it's fiscal clout, and none of the politicans in Sacramento have their hands in it.
Perhaps that is why it is so sound.
3) Gov. Wilson saw the money in CALPERS, and also decided that he was going to steal it to balance the state budget. He stole the money, and several years later, after the case made it through the courts, he (the taxpayers) had to pay it back. With interest.
The key point is this The funds in CALPERS are not there because the taxpayers of this state got screwed, robbed or cheated. The money is there because a group of employers, (not just the state) bargained with a group of employees, (not just state employees) and they both contributed to a fund. That fund has grown, and been soundly invested. It is not some giant account of hidden taxpayer money that Arnie and his team are salivating over.
IT IS MY MONEY. Mine and every other public employee in CALPERS.
This is no different than if he was going after the Teamsters Union, or any other group that has contracted with the state to provide service.
No governor has any business sticking his nose into my pension fund anymore than he has sticking it into the Teamsters Union pension fund. If he wants to start bargaining with the people directly employed by the state of Ca. to reform pensions, let him do so. Let him sit down at the table like a man and talk to them. HE needs, however, to STAY OUT OF the local side of this.
This guy is a actor playing himself in the role of governor. He is going to try to use his public popularity to take the easy way out and screw the people who work for the people, because neither he nor the legislature has the sack to stand up and make the cuts necessary.
I have worked on our bargaining team for years. This county is just now realizing what is going to happen here over the next 5 years, when turnover in our 90 sworn agency will be about 75% as people retire. Lots of knowledge, years of it, are going to leave in what amounts to the blink of an eye. Since they do not pay enough to live here, there is no "long line" of folks waiting to take this job.
The negotiators on the other side tell me that over 75% of the general fund revenue that they operate the county on is mandated to go to state and federal social welfare programs.
That means that your local elected officals have actual control over about 25 cents on the dollar of the revenue(taxes) that come into the piggy bank. The pigs at the trough in Sacto and D.C. are spending the rest to empower themselves as the source of life to a dependant class that continues to vote them back into office.
For the rest of us, that sounds an awful lot like taxation without representation, folks. We had a little party in Boston a couple of hundred years ago over this, if memory serves me correctly.

[Waldo]

Back to Arnold picking on the public employees. Why isn't he trying to recoup any $ from other areas???
Also, he is not taking away money with renigging on Prop 98...he said "let's wait" and now is just not giving it to schools after it was voted and passed by voters!!!

[Dr. Eagle]

That means that your local elected officals have actual control over about 25 cents on the dollar of the revenue(taxes) that come into the piggy bank. The pigs at the trough in Sacto and D.C. are spending the rest to empower themselves as the source of life to a dependant class that continues to vote them back into office.
For the rest of us, that sounds an awful lot like taxation without representation, folks. We had a little party in Boston a couple of hundred years ago over this, if memory serves me correctly.
This much I will agree with you on. Local money should stay local. The state has NO business confiscating local property tax revenue and "redistributing" those revenues as it sees fit. That was a structural change instigated during the Wilson administration I believe... bad government made worse in my opinion... :argue:

[a catered life]

Chris
Yes I am and I make a whole hellavue alot less than private industry
A HELL OF A LOT LESS
here here i agree with u kilrtoy :sqeyes:
all the cuts is the budget now suck :( they say that the public education system sucks but you cant fix shi* without money and resources but this as*hole is cutting budgets faster than we can fix stuff. :messedup: now we will have layoffs and more people looking for a unemployement check yea right like thats going to help california :(

[schiada96]

read his sentence, it says anticipate a surplus by the end of the fiscal year.
I read it. We are borrowing 3.5 billion to balance the budget this year. So again how do we have a surplus.

[Flyinbowtie]

Doc;
The structural change, as you put it, was implemented by Wilson et.al after the taxpayers pushed prop 13 through, then threatened to do it again when the state house didn't get that message, either.
A large percentage of people in CALPERS do not work for the state, they are employees of the 58 counties in this state and the cities in those counties. So much of the CALPERS funds are generated locally.
Here is a part of this that is ironic.
When polled, the people of this state prioritze
1)Public Safety (Police Firefighters)
2)Public Education (The schools)
3)Transportation issues (Road construction/maint)
Whom is Arnie going to rape in this movie?
All of the above.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Not everyone currrently going into LE and teaching are good candidates. Plenty of losers I went to high school with are now peace officers and teachers.

[Flyinbowtie]

HD;
You're right. A number of agencies in this state have lowered their standards in an effort to meet diversity issues..
Most are still taking only the best of what they get in the applicant pool.
Which supports my point that the pool is shrinking.

[Waldo]

here here i agree with u kilrtoy :sqeyes:
all the cuts is the budget now suck :( they say that the public education system sucks but you cant fix shi* without money and resources but this as*hole is cutting budgets faster than we can fix stuff. :messedup: now we will have layoffs and more people looking for a unemployement check yea right like thats going to help california :(
DUDE, AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!!

[Dr. Eagle]

Doc;
The structural change, as you put it, was implemented by Wilson et.al after the taxpayers pushed prop 13 through, then threatened to do it again when the state house didn't get that message, either.
A large percentage of people in CALPERS do not work for the state, they are employees of the 58 counties in this state and the cities in those counties. So much of the CALPERS funds are generated locally.
Here is a part of this that is ironic.
When polled, the people of this state prioritze
1)Public Safety (Police Firefighters)
2)Public Education (The schools)
3)Transportation issues (Road construction/maint)
Whom is Arnie going to rape in this movie?
All of the above.
I voted for Prop. 13 and still fully support it. The change that was made was institued in the early 90s about 15 years post Prop 13. That change was part of a smoke and mirrors deal to balance the budget in a bad year (may have been 91 or 92 as I recall).
As far as being raped, I feel that way every year when I pay my taxes in this frigging state. Having been born and raised in California, you might think I'd be used to it. But it gets so much WORSE every year it is unbelievable. New Fees for everything under the sun, property taxes that would make someone in a state with high property taxes shudder because of the inflated home values that you cited.
The problem isn't revenue, it is spending and it needs to get under control before the people have had it... and I think it's about there. :hammer2:

[Waldo]

HD;
You're right. A number of agencies in this state have lowered their standards in an effort to meet diversity issues..
Most are still taking only the best of what they get in the applicant pool.
Which supports my point that the pool is shrinking.
Bush's No Child Left Behind (NCLB) is another issue but NCLB is making it very difficult (and expensive) for the high school "slacker" to become teachers because it easy to do so.

[a catered life]

DUDE, AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!!
lol you do? :confused: and i speak from experience (me and wifey are public employees)

[Flyinbowtie]

I voted for Prop. 13 and still fully support it. The change that was made was institued in the early 90s about 15 years post Prop 13. That change was part of a smoke and mirrors deal to balance the budget in a bad year (may have been 91 or 92 as I recall).
As far as being raped, I feel that way every year when I pay my taxes in this frigging state. Having been born and raised in California, you might think I'd be used to it. But it gets so much WORSE every year it is unbelievable. New Fees for everything under the sun, property taxes that would make someone in a state with high property taxes shudder because of the inflated home values that you cited.
The problem isn't revenue, it is spending and it needs to get under control before the people have had it... and I think it's about there. :hammer2:
Born and raised here, too, and as a homeowner since '80 I supported Prop 13. After 25 years in the job, tho, I see Bad Times coming for the people of this state who are funding this mess. (you and me) Unless there is a reality shift unlike anything you or I have ever seen, this state will become home to the very, very wealthy and those who serve them at McDonalds. No one else will be able to afford to live here. And ony the foolish wealthy, with major guilt trips will stay. The smart ones with a nest egg will take it somewhere else.

[mirvin]

Free rides over baby.... :notam: Besides, it won't effect your pension, it'll just bring future pension back into reality.
mirvin :cool:

[1h20lowrider]

Who voted for the this clown??????
He is a joke....your pay will be based on test scores....but I will be taking millions from schools! what a dumbass! I volunteer at my kids schools and I see how hard teachers need assistants..We have no teachers aids, we have no librarian and the classrooms are overcrowded. Teachers have it hard, some dumbass posted 65K for 9 months is real good! How about the time teachers spend after school getting lessons together, grading your kids papers, on there own personal time going to workshops, and helping students that are having a hard time....He wants teachers to be accountable, make him accountable for his promises.....
As for the police and firemen I feel bad for them If this even gets to the ballots....If the same amount of peolple that voted for him, back him ....it is going to get ugly!
The scary part is HE MIGHT RUN FOR PRESIDENT OR BE ASKED TO BE VICE PRESIDENT!!!!!! He is trying to push that issue also.

[Dr. Eagle]

Born and raised here, too, and as a homeowner since '80 I supported Prop 13. After 25 years in the job, tho, I see Bad Times coming for the people of this state who are funding this mess. (you and me) Unless there is a reality shift unlike anything you or I have ever seen, this state will become home to the very, very wealthy and those who serve them at McDonalds. No one else will be able to afford to live here. And ony the foolish wealthy, with major guilt trips will stay. The smart ones with a nest egg will take it somewhere else.
Unfortunately, I see the same. The day of reconing will come for all those smoke an mirrors budgets, borrowing etc. that have happened under the last 3 governors. It could be a very bad thing... for all of us. :crossx:

[Dr. Eagle]

Who voted for the this clown??????
He is a joke....your pay will be based on test scores....but I will be taking millions from schools! what a dumbass! I volunteer at my kids schools and I see how hard teachers need assistants..We have no teachers aids, we have no librarian and the classrooms are overcrowded. Teachers have it hard, some dumbass posted 65K for 9 months is real good! How about the time teachers spend after school getting lessons together, grading your kids papers, on there own personal time going to workshops, and helping students that are having a hard time....He wants teachers to be accountable, make him accountable for his promises.....
As for the police and firemen I feel bad for them If this even gets to the ballots....If the same amount of peolple that voted for him, back him ....it is going to get ugly!
The scary part is HE MIGHT RUN FOR PRESIDENT OR BE ASKED TO BE VICE PRESIDENT!!!!!! He is trying to push that issue also.
1. Whatever
2. I voted for this clown.
:eat:

[Flyinbowtie]

mirvin, I hope you really don't believe that I have been on a free ride, as I sit here trying to decide whether to go for a 3-level spinal fusion or a couple of artifical discs to try to make enough of the pain to go away to make life worth living again.
The one thing that is certain, the people of this state, (and I am one of them) will get only what they demand from their elected officals, and what they are willing to pay for.
BP rising, outta here...

[mirvin]

Who voted for the this clown??????
He is a joke....your pay will be based on test scores....but I will be taking millions from schools! what a dumbass! I volunteer at my kids schools and I see how hard teachers need assistants..We have no teachers aids, we have no librarian and the classrooms are overcrowded. Teachers have it hard, some dumbass posted 65K for 9 months is real good! How about the time teachers spend after school getting lessons together, grading your kids papers, on there own personal time going to workshops, and helping students that are having a hard time....He wants teachers to be accountable, make him accountable for his promises.....
As for the police and firemen I feel bad for them If this even gets to the ballots....If the same amount of peolple that voted for him, back him ....it is going to get ugly!
The scary part is HE MIGHT RUN FOR PRESIDENT OR BE ASKED TO BE VICE PRESIDENT!!!!!! He is trying to push that issue also.
Dude, if the raise you get is smaller then the one you were expecting it's still a raise. Schools are getting MORE MONEY then they got last year. I don't care what the CTU says. They are lying through thier teeth.
Pensions for state workers are a joke. That's where all the tax money is going. That's what's broke. Fix that and suddenly we'll have all the money we need for schools, police, etc.
mirvin

[mirvin]

mirvin, I hope you really don't believe that I have been on a free ride, as I sit here trying to decide whether to go for a 3-level spinal fusion or a couple of artifical discs to try to make enough of the pain to go away to make life worth living again.
The one thing that is certain, the people of this state, (and I am one of them) will get only what they demand from their elected officals, and what they are willing to pay for.
BP rising, outta here...
I'm talking about pensions. I'm not saying anything about how hard you work or what you get paid. In fact you should get paid more. Whether you're a cop or a teacher. They're all underpaid.
mirvin

[Dr. Eagle]

I don't care what the CTU says. They are lying through thier teeth.
mirvin
First clue = moving lips... :hammerhea

[a catered life]

95%!!!! Personally I don't think they should get even that much. I don't see it as being much different than the grocery store workers. Over-paid and over compensated. Only ones that deserve anywhere near that much are the police and firemen.
spoken from the mouth of a as*hole
yea right with that attitude you will need more police and fireman to stop and lock up or put out fires from the under-educated a-holes out there. you should see that in pasadena especially since your little city has gang problems and a real sucky public school system. (lived there for 17 years and still work for the school system) i will admit it some of the school people are over paid but the real people that affect your childs life on a daily basis arent. check your facts better :burningm:

[1h20lowrider]

Dude, if the raise you get is smaller then the one you were expecting it's still a raise. Schools are getting MORE MONEY then they got last year. I don't care what the CTU says. They are lying through thier teeth.
Pensions for state workers are a joke. That's where all the tax money is going. That's what's broke. Fix that and suddenly we'll have all the money we need for schools, police, etc.
mirvin
TORRANCE come on over, will talk about this issue...Believe me I dont need a raise, Im not a teacher...But I see the time that I put in and the wife puts in volunteering, some schools are asking for materials to be donated....I hope one day your place of employment does not think about stopping matching to your retirement plan or just decides not to give you a pension? Hope social security is around when you are 75 to collect 100% and get a part time job to make ends meet! Well you could be the new greeter at the WAL-MART they are building on 190th and normandie!!!!!!

[1h20lowrider]

One more I idea why dont pass a law to make every politician buy there own car, repair(service) and make them pay for half of their trip where ever arnold wants to go???
Can anyone find out when Arnold :hammer2: is having his next public appearance?

[Dr. Eagle]

spoken from the mouth of a as*hole
yea right with that attitude you will need more police and fireman to stop and lock up or put out fires from the under-educated a-holes out there. you should see that in pasadena especially since your little city has gang problems and a real sucky public school system. (lived there for 17 years and still work for the school system) i will admit it some of the school people are over paid but the real people that affect your childs life on a daily basis arent. check your facts better :burningm:
I don't think there is a need to get personal over a post... IMHO. I don't agree with the content of that post either BTW...

[mirvin]

TORRANCE come on over, will talk about this issue...Believe me I dont need a raise, Im not a teacher...But I see the time that I put in and the wife puts in volunteering, some schools are asking for materials to be donated....I hope one day your place of employment does not think about stopping matching to your retirement plan or just decides not to give you a pension? Hope social security is around when you are 75 to collect 100% and get a part time job to make ends meet! Well you could be the new greeter at the WAL-MART they are building on 190th and normandie!!!!!!
Easy there tough guy. Us private workers get screwed all the time. Just because our ex gov. whored himself out to unions and bent the public over his desk doesn't mean it's ok. You deserve what's fair for everyone which includes those of us paying your salary. That's right, the taxpayer. When over 50% of the yearly coffiers goes to pay your pension there's something wrong.
mirvin

[1h20lowrider]

Im not being a tough guy I would never disrespect you unless,you disrespect
me..I was serious , we dont have to go to blows over a difference in opinion...I live in torrance thats why I invited you over :cool:
But like my prior post I am not a TEACHER,my wife and I volunteer at our kids schools!
Now come on, if I was a teacher do you think I could have afforded Torrance!

[mirvin]

Im not being a tough guy I would never disrespect you unless,you disrespect
me..I was serious , we dont have to go to blows over a difference in opinion...I live in torrance thats why I invited you over :cool:
But like my prior post I am not a TEACHER,my wife and I volunteer at our kids schools!
Now come on, if I was a teacher do you think I could have afforded Torrance!
Ah...neighbors :D I' wondering if we're talking about the same thing? THe state pension is what's broke. Kinda like Social Security. SOmethings got to give. In fact it appears to me that the inflated pensions being floated by the taxpayers directly effects funding for public services such as schools and police. Correcting the pension problems will result in more money up front for these services.
If I could load my last year of work with tons of OT so as to effect my retirement pay I would (sound familiar firemen?). That doesn't make it ok. THere's lots of stuff broke here in Cali. We can't fix them and please everybody at the same time. At some point we're gonna have to treat the state like a business again.
mirvin

[NorCal Gameshow]

At some point we're gonna have to treat the state like a business again.
mirvin
Like the printing business .... :idea: :D
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:5IFlvWrPqVwJ:www.mousememories.com/storefront/images/eksuccess/HBP003.jpg

[Waldo]

If I could load my last year of work with tons of OT so as to effect my retirement pay I would (sound familiar firemen?).
Teachers don't get overtime...too bad for me. :D

[totenhosen]

spoken from the mouth of a as*hole
yea right with that attitude you will need more police and fireman to stop and lock up or put out fires from the under-educated a-holes out there. you should see that in pasadena especially since your little city has gang problems and a real sucky public school system. (lived there for 17 years and still work for the school system) i will admit it some of the school people are over paid but the real people that affect your childs life on a daily basis arent. check your facts better :burningm:
Easy there with the comments. Can't discuss anything w/o getting personal?
My feeling is that the general public worker is overpaid and overcompensated. 95% is absurd. You need to look beyond teachers, firemen, police officers but at the whole picture. The majority of the public sector is not comprised of these people.
Sorry but I have friends that are teachers in Pasadena getting paid $60k+ a year working 9 months out of the year. And these are recent grads. Those are my facts.
Pasadena isn't that small of a city and the gang problem is much better than what it use to be. Its pretty much isolated to NorthWest Pasadena. I know because I have friends that work for Pasadena PD and I play basketball with some of those gang members.
Schools I agree that they suck and thats why my parents sent me to private school and why I support tuition vouchers.

[a catered life]

I don't think there is a need to get personal over a post... IMHO. I don't agree with the content of that post either BTW...
ok disreguard the a hole part only
:D glad to see you see where i was coming from

[Flyinbowtie]

Okay, I am going to make one more run at this, hopefully some facts, and not scuttlebutt will help.
1)Calpers is not broke, and nowhere near broke.
http://www.calpers.com/index.jsp?bc=/about/facts/home.xml
In the year 2003-04, CALPERs took in 2.2 million dollars from employee contributions, and 4.2 million dollars from the state and local governement employers.
Now lets assume that that 4.2 mil was ALL state, which it isn't.
Does 4.2 million sound like a giant chunk of money that is bleeding the taxpayers dry?
Hell no.
Here is why the no-balls gov and the ball-less legislature wants to get their fingers in the pie.
Investment income, (including all prior funds that were rolled over) from all the funds CALPERs manages for that same fiscal year was 24,272,572,000, in round numbers.
We are not broke. We are not costing the taxpayers bazillions.
And, by the way, in my Safety Retirement, overtime is NOT included when calculating final compensation numbers.

[a catered life]

i see you did some homework and it sounds close to right :p

[ROZ]

I read it. We are borrowing 3.5 billion to balance the budget this year. So again how do we have a surplus.
Budgetary calculations aren't final until the end of a fiscal year.... So either way, your both wrong... We won't know until the end of the year :P :D

[Kilrtoy]

nobody, retires at 130%....
more like 50 to 80% of the low income wage job....

[Havasu_Dreamin]

The scary part is HE MIGHT RUN FOR PRESIDENT OR BE ASKED TO BE VICE PRESIDENT!!!!!! He is trying to push that issue also.
Won't happen and I believe the constitution would prevent him from even being the veep.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

i will admit it some of the school people are over paid but the real people that affect your childs life on a daily basis arent. check your facts better :burningm:
And therein lies the problem. School districts are notorious for being inefficient in their spending practices. they need to get better at spending their funds efficiently and in the proper areas. WhyTF did one So. Cal school district pay $2.5MM to wire an entire elementary school and when the job was done, it did not work right? WTF is up with that!?!?!?!?!?!

[Havasu_Dreamin]

nobody, retires at 130%....
more like 50 to 80% of the low income wage job....
Maybe not 130%, but certainly greater than 100%. Yes, that is a direct result of deferred compensation and the defined benefit plan. However, this low paying job you speak of was a robbery detective for LASD making ~ $80k+ per year.
Edit:Then of course there was the fireman/paramedic for LA County, as reported a few years ago, was pulling down $120k and living in Havasu. Of course he was working 8 straight days, or something like that, and taking like two weeks off. Don't remember the exact figures, but they were something from left field like that.

[schiada96]

Budgetary calculations aren't final until the end of a fiscal year.... So either way, your both wrong... We won't know until the end of the year :P :D
Do you borrow more than you make to get thru the year?
I'm just being a smart ass

[Waldo]

Sorry but I have friends that are teachers in Pasadena getting paid $60k+ a year working 9 months out of the year. And these are recent grads. Those are my facts.
You might want to check your facts or your friend(s) aren't quite telling you the truth. Looking at the Pasadena Unified salary schedule online, your friend would have to have taught 10 years and hold a Master's Degree to get around $60K.
They might be coaching, tutoring, summer school, or working any other additional programs aside from the normal workday to earn that extra $$$.

[totenhosen]

You might want to check your facts or your friend(s) aren't quite telling you the truth. Looking at the Pasadena Unified salary schedule online, your friend would have to have taught 10 years and hold a Master's Degree to get around $60K.
They might be coaching, tutoring, summer school, or working any other additional programs aside from the normal workday to earn that extra $$$.
They have the Masters degree but have only been teaching 5 years in kindergarten.

[NorCal Gameshow]

a big issue with this is the $189,000,000,000 in investments
"If CalPERS and CalSTRS are essentially turned into 401(k) plans, they'd no longer steer billions of dollars in investment decisions. They'd be more like caretakers overseeing paperwork for thousands of individual investors."
this thing will effect more then the just public employees....good or bad, I don't know. the upside to a 401k is you have some control where it's put and you take it with when you leave.

[1h20lowrider]

Won't happen and I believe the constitution would prevent him from even being the veep.
You never Know! :skull:

[Havasu_Dreamin]

You never Know! :skull:
True, but I voted for him for Governor but would admantly oppose amending the constituion to allow foreign born to be President.

[Essex502]

The public sector has so many advantages than the private sector. When was the last time you saw massive layoffs of public employees? Hell, most of the private sector employes are "At will" and can be let go at any moment. Pensions? how many companies still have traditional pension plans? Few and fewer. Most private sector employees are fixed with 401K's at best. Many have none. Now let's talk bennies...there are many private sector employers that provide NO medical benefits - that's why the was a vote recently in CA for that to be mandatory. Failed to pass. Tenure? Where do you get that in the private sector except at a private school. Not in manufacturing or services industries. Pay for how many years you've been on the job? No, I like most employees of private companies are paid by what we do not how long we've been on the job.
As has been said. This state is in a mess. For many reasons. Pain will be seen when we try to get out of the mess. How do we fix this without pain? Are all of Arnold's proposals right? Maybe not. But with a Democratic legislature that doesn't want to work with the Republicans what can he do but take it to the people.

[a catered life]

They have the Masters degree but have only been teaching 5 years in kindergarten.
then thier lying i have been working for pasadena for more than 12 years and i know for sure the only teachers that make that much are the ones with a phd and they have to have a special credential from the state of california and teaching a special college prep course.(math or some type of language arts) we only have 4 of those in this district but if you friends are working summer also they might come close to that number but hard to believe in just 5 years especially for a kindergarten age classes

[a catered life]

And therein lies the problem. School districts are notorious for being inefficient in their spending practices. they need to get better at spending their funds efficiently and in the proper areas. WhyTF did one So. Cal school district pay $2.5MM to wire an entire elementary school and when the job was done, it did not work right? WTF is up with that!?!?!?!?!?!
i agree with you 100% most districts do screw off a sh8t load of money on bad construction but that because of the stupid laws we have to go by to hire a contractor :2purples: with most school contracts we have to take the lowest bidder. :eek: so what happens they bid we hire them they sub-contract the work to make more money and we get crappy delayed work we get pissed cause it doesn't work and they we have to respend more money to have it done again paying twice as much cause the new contracter has to charge more to fix the first mistake most of the time the second contractor was the next highest bidder on the original bid :220v:

[roostwear]

True, but I voted for him for Governor but would admantly oppose amending the constituion to allow foreign born to be President.
Why? Apparently we've run thru all the decent candidates, and now we have to have Clintons in office. Matbe we need to make an amendment that NO natural born Americans can be president........

[BoatFloating]

The bottom line is it's a petition and it's just to get it to the people. Last time I checked this is still a Democracy and the people should have a chance to vote on it. Trying to keep people from having there own opinions is straight out of Russia.... :hammerhea

[caroftheweek]

The bottom line is it's a petition and it's just to get it to the people. Last time I checked this is still a Democracy and the people should have a chance to vote on it. Trying to keep people from having there own opinions is straight out of Russia.... :hammerhea
well said BF.

[ROZ]

Do you borrow more than you make to get thru the year?
I'm just being a smart ass
I'll let you know in October :D

[BoatFloating]

I'll let you know in October :D
LMAO......
:D :supp:

[IN2MX]

If you sign it, do you really get 5 bucks???
Figure, I can roll that into in IRA or something.....

[Dr. Eagle]

If you sign it, do you really get 5 bucks???
Figure, I can roll that into in IRA or something.....
I guess I'm cheap. I signed all 6 of em for nothing... :hammerhea :wink:

[surfer2001]

From what I'm getting from this thread is that it sounds kind of like what the grocery store chains did to their employees. It seems that the state like the grocery chains is saying that we can't keep on continuing to pay the bloated retirement/pension fund that public employees are getting.
I agree with this, most of my relatives are retired cops and fireman. All of them have a very very good retirement plans. Some government jobs pay well some don’t. I always thought teachers should be paid better. Do relatively under educated cops deserve all this retirement pay? I don’t know. I’ve been in manufacturing all my working life and the only retirement I will receive is my 401. I did not have to risk my life on a daily basis like they did, but I’m sure I won’t be able to afford world wide traveling like they can. Fair, I don’t think so.

[Kilrtoy]

Maybe not 130%, but certainly greater than 100%. Yes, that is a direct result of deferred compensation and the defined benefit plan. However, this low paying job you speak of was a robbery detective for LASD making ~ $80k+ per year.
Edit:Then of course there was the fireman/paramedic for LA County, as reported a few years ago, was pulling down $120k and living in Havasu. Of course he was working 8 straight days, or something like that, and taking like two weeks off. Don't remember the exact figures, but they were something from left field like that.
Ok so less than 1% is doing this and in the private sector there is the same thing going on......Did you get that out of the L.A. TIMES, They always report thefacts correctly...

[Kilrtoy]

The public sector has so many advantages than the private sector. When was the last time you saw massive layoffs of public employees? Hell, most of the private sector employes are "At will" and can be let go at any moment. Pensions? how many companies still have traditional pension plans? Few and fewer. Most private sector employees are fixed with 401K's at best. Many have none. Now let's talk bennies...there are many private sector employers that provide NO medical benefits - that's why the was a vote recently in CA for that to be mandatory. Failed to pass. Tenure? Where do you get that in the private sector except at a private school. Not in manufacturing or services industries. Pay for how many years you've been on the job? No, I like most employees of private companies are paid by what we do not how long we've been on the job.
As has been said. This state is in a mess. For many reasons. Pain will be seen when we try to get out of the mess. How do we fix this without pain? Are all of Arnold's proposals right? Maybe not. But with a Democratic legislature that doesn't want to work with the Republicans what can he do but take it to the people.
Lets go back to something here..
Private sector secretaries make any where from 35 to 70K plus end of year Bonuses
LAUSD Sec make 30K.. no bonuses=Big difference....
LAUSD just handed out 1500 PINK SLIPS... IT IS HAPPENING TODAY AS I WRITE THIS.....
They dont want to work with the GOV=Because he is coming up with some crazy shit.....
Aint no 5 year teacher making 60K, without working there ass off far beyond their classroom time....

[Freak]

I gotta ask. I have read on the boards before where a 60k job a year is shit in Cali. What's the deal you want your teachers living in boxes?
The fact of the matter is neither the majority of public or private business can really afford the "American dream retirement" anymore. Sad but true.
I have seen mass layoffs of public workers here. Hell its happing right now. They are outsourcing. It was bound to happen sooner or later. Shame.

[Freak]

I haven't seen where he is cutting a "special programs". I thought for sure he would do that. My guess is he cant get anything passed.

[Dr. Eagle]

Lets go back to something here..
Private sector secretaries make any where from 35 to 70K plus end of year Bonuses
LAUSD Sec make 30K.. no bonuses=Big difference....
Kilr, you can't be serious. First of all almost no companies have secretaries any more, (if they have administrative help, there aren't very many) and a super qualified executive assistant (like the one I had a few years back) might make 45K... No bonus, no stock options.

[BiggusJimbus]

The pink slips are issued at this time of year so that if a district has to lay people off, they can legally do so. Few or none of those people will likely be laid off. It is played out this way every year.
Good for shock value, though. Teachers with less time in the system can get nervous this time of year, but they are RARELY laid off.

[totenhosen]

Aint no 5 year teacher making 60K, without working there ass off far beyond their classroom time....
Even though my friend from Pasadena maybe inflating her income I jsut did a loan for a elementary school teacher working in Cerritos making $65k that is 28yo. (Don't know if that includes summer or not) When you calulate the benefits involved vs a private sector job that is a pretty damn good amount of money for the job.

[Dr. Eagle]

Even though my friend from Pasadena maybe inflating her income I jsut did a loan for a elementary school teacher working in Cerritos making $65k that is 28yo. (Don't know if that includes summer or not) When you calulate the benefits involved vs a private sector job that is a pretty damn good amount of money for the job.
Especially considering that you get 25% of the year off to do something else...

[Kilrtoy]

Even though my friend from Pasadena maybe inflating her income I jsut did a loan for a elementary school teacher working in Cerritos making $65k that is 28yo. (Don't know if that includes summer or not) When you calulate the benefits involved vs a private sector job that is a pretty damn good amount of money for the job.
She is picking up before school, during school or after school classes. She is doing other activities and she is working summer or winter break which ever she has off....
Granted I say teachers make a lot of money, But I think they should make alot more....
Try sitting in a class of 20 to 40 kids and control them (ALL OF THEM) for 7 hours and in that time you have to educate them, NOT EASY.....
I believe Edukator said on here before he makes 35K a year after 5 years and has a master degree.....

[Kilrtoy]

The pink slips are issued at this time of year so that if a district has to lay people off, they can legally do so. Few or none of those people will likely be laid off. It is played out this way every year.
Good for shock value, though. Teachers with less time in the system can get nervous this time of year, but they are RARELY laid off.
Nice try, in the past yes this was true, But there are roughly 1,500 people in L.A. right now that will tell you different.... They already lost their job

[CA Stu]

No offense, but it's pretty hard to take a teacher seriously who can't spell "renege" or "reneging".
My children go to a private school because the public schools are a disciplinary joke wrapped in a fashion show wrapped in a popularity contest.
I don't even use the public school system at all, can I be excused from paying taxes to support it? Please?
I don't want to cut anyone's throat, of course, but I don't want to pay into a bloated, top heavy bureaucracy that has spun way out of control either.
I'm going to have to sign that petition. I owe it to my family.
Thanks
CA Stu

[Kilrtoy]

Kilr, you can't be serious. First of all almost no companies have secretaries any more, (if they have administrative help, there aren't very many) and a super qualified executive assistant (like the one I had a few years back) might make 45K... No bonus, no stock options.
Yes Im serious, I have a friend that I am speaking off.. She was complaining because she said she didnt make enough.... I asked how much she made and she said 65K a year, I almost fell out of my chair..... and yes her bonus was 5K
Another lady i know makes 55K a year and got a 15k bonus 2 years ago, dont know what she got this year.....
They both claim they can make more , but enjoy the people they work for.....

[Dr. Eagle]

Well that's not my experience. And certainly not the norm for an administrative person. Usually 20 bucks an hour is considered highly compensated and like I said, my Executive Assistant when I was a VP at Wireless Facilities in San Diego made 48K just two years ago...

[Kilrtoy]

Well that's not my experience. And certainly not the norm for an administrative person. Usually 20 bucks an hour is considered highly compensated and like I said, my Executive Assistant when I was a VP at Wireless Facilities in San Diego made 48K just two years ago...
And most all jobs in San Diego pay less than L.A. ....

[Dr. Eagle]

And most all jobs in San Diego pay less than L.A. ....
That's not at all true. Real estate and cost of living down there is just as high or higher as in LA. Oh and yes I worked in LA for most of the last year and no your salary observations didn't hold in that market either.

[BoatFloating]

And most all jobs in San Diego pay less than L.A. ....
Migirl, are you just throwing shit against the wall and hope everyone buys it????? San Diego jobs are no less paid in the LA area. It's all about supply and demand. Hell my bonus this year was alot less then the previous years should I blame it on the Arnold???? Stop telling people to do something you don't beleive in. If people want to sign it get over it. If you don't like the rules of the team you play on change the game......
Welcome to Life..... Whoa's ME!!!!!!!!!
:(

[Kilrtoy]

Migirl, are you just throwing shit against the wall and hope everyone buys it????? San Diego jobs are no less paid in the LA area. It's all about supply and demand. Hell my bonus this year was alot less then the previous years should I blame it on the Arnold???? Stop telling people to do something you don't beleive in. If people want to sign it get over it. If you don't like the rules of the team you play on change the game......
Welcome to Life..... Whoa's ME!!!!!!!!!
:(
Really all the web sites i have checked and the people i speak with who work there, do make alot less... So they all must be lying also...
What am I throwing against the wall. That the GOV is trying to screw all the public employes in the state... he opening says he is... Granted he doesnt use the word SCREW.... he uses the word REFORM......
he is trying to solve the states fin. status... on the backs of its employees...
I would change, but Im too damn old and have too much time invested to move....if I did I would lose my ass.....

[totenhosen]

She is picking up before school, during school or after school classes. She is doing other activities and she is working summer or winter break which ever she has off....
Granted I say teachers make a lot of money, But I think they should make alot more....
Try sitting in a class of 20 to 40 kids and control them (ALL OF THEM) for 7 hours and in that time you have to educate them, NOT EASY.....
I believe Edukator said on here before he makes 35K a year after 5 years and has a master degree.....
Just spoke with her and she said she does work P/T in the summer teaching two classes. No other activities. So $65k is a good amount of money for a 28yo elementry school teacher along with the other benefits.
I can only speak from the banking field but San Diego jobs in my field do not pay less than LA.

[BoatFloating]

Really all the web sites i have checked and the people i speak with who work there, do make alot less... So they all must be lying also...
What am I throwing against the wall. That the GOV is trying to screw all the public employes in the state... he opening says he is... Granted he doesnt use the word SCREW.... he uses the word REFORM......
he is trying to solve the states fin. status... on the backs of its employees...
I would change, but Im too damn old and have too much time invested to move....if I did I would lose my ass.....
I work in San Diego and the index is the same there as in the LA area. Other companies I deal with also say the same thing. So give the link to the websites because our company study have San Diego ranked the same.
With that said you're still missing the point. You can't tell people to not sign a petiton based on your beliefs.
News Flash.... It cost more to live in CA and this problem we have didn't happen overnight and isn't going to get fixed in a year or by one budget.... Once again the bottom line is majority wins and if the people wnat it so be it....

[Kilrtoy]

Rocky I dont work for your company, So why should you be allowed to vote on my health benefits and retirement... I dont get to vote on yours......
If the voters want to pass this, so be it... But, will I get a retroactive check for the past 12 years I have given up raises to achieve these items.
No I wont.
So in reality I will take a 35% pay cut, I dont know anybody who can survive that....THOSE ARE MY FACTS ABOUT ME AND MY CO-WORKERS....
I dont think you could handle a 35% pay cut and continue with your life how it is today.....So don't ask me to....

[haulina29]

Who cares if the lausd shuts down tommorow ? life will go on. Government is out of control with to many on the payroll . Looks like some may have to quit living for today and plan for tommorrow . :rolleyes:

[totenhosen]

Rocky I dont work for your company, So why should you be allowed to vote on my health benefits and retirement... I dont get to vote on yours......
If the voters want to pass this, so be it... But, will I get a retroactive check for the past 12 years I have given up raises to achieve these items.
No I wont.
So in reality I will take a 35% pay cut, I dont know anybody who can survive that....THOSE ARE MY FACTS ABOUT ME AND MY CO-WORKERS....
I dont think you could handle a 35% pay cut and continue with your life how it is today.....So don't ask me to....
I trully feel for you guys but working for the state we the people of this state are your bosses (in a way). Just like the stockholders of a corporation have a say in the way a company is run so do the people of CA.
After looking into I do think that cuts can come in other areas though first.

[Dr. Eagle]

Rocky I dont work for your company, So why should you be allowed to vote on my health benefits and retirement... I dont get to vote on yours......
I understand your predicament, Kilr and you are obviously quite upset about the situation.
But as a public employee, you are paid by the taxpayers in this state. The taxpayers can from time to time vote on issues surrounding employment conditions for public employees, expenditures and the like. That's how it works.

[BoatFloating]

Rocky I dont work for your company, So why should you be allowed to vote on my health benefits and retirement... I dont get to vote on yours......
If the voters want to pass this, so be it... But, will I get a retroactive check for the past 12 years I have given up raises to achieve these items.
No I wont.
So in reality I will take a 35% pay cut, I dont know anybody who can survive that....THOSE ARE MY FACTS ABOUT ME AND MY CO-WORKERS....
I dont think you could handle a 35% pay cut and continue with your life how it is today.....So don't ask me to....
When you work for the a Goverment agency the public is your boss. What do you pay a month for your health insurance???? The days of the unions are slowly coming to a end. Got to love unions that collect your dues and use that money to send out political flyers and tell you who to vote for....

[Flying Tiger]

"The Only Way To get Back at and Screw The Government is to Work For them"
- Trailer Park Casanova

[haulina29]

Eagle you are absolutly correct it is the citizens of a given are who have the right to decide who and what they want there tax dollars to go to . The waiste in government is not even real the amount of public workers it takes to do a job is ridiculous . The benifets are mind boggling .

[Flying Tiger]

KillerToyz, Are you in the D.R.O.P.S. program?
Or have something like it?
Pretty cool pention.

[BoatFloating]

Miguel, I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't be upset or worried since you have a family to worry about but let it play it's way out...
I would like to see who and where you're getting the info on these cuts. Is this coming from your unions. I would like a link to read for myself....

[GMFL]

Its so great to hear how the public employees are getting screwed and us in the private sector are doing so well.. Then you hear how much more the public employees could be making in the private sector. Come on over. However, you guys would have to pay into the Social Security system here, and good luck collecting on that. Oh, and BTW, there has not been one company that I have worked for that has offfered a pension plan. Matching 401k if lucky.
Arnold has helped California. We can only hope he keeps going and dosen't back down on his agenda. (like he did today :squiggle: )

[summerlove]

We have had this discussion here before, but I'll offer the following.
Perhaps there is another way to look at this for those citizens in this state who think changing CALPERS by cutting pension benefits is a way to deal with this states' fiscal problems.
A little background..
I live in rural northern Ca. The average price of a house in this county now exceeds $325,000. This would be for a fixer-upper. A deputy sheriff with 5 years experience here cannot qualify for a loan to buy a home within 30 miles of where he works. The cost of living here exceeds that in Sacramento County, where deputies make an average of 25% more money.
Most people working here and living here had an edge, parents who had land in this area, people who were raised here, etc.
Our agency just this month has had a deputy leave to go to Arizona, where he is going to make very close to the same money and purchased a brand new home last fall for $109,000. He didn't want to leave, but he wanted a reasonable quality of life for his family. He could not afford to work in the town he was raised in.
The majority of teachers, police officers, and firefighters in the PERS system could make a great deal more money elsewhere, but chose to serve in the public sector. The low-average pay was offset by a decent pension plan, which they bargained for through the same contractual process that everybody else who works under a contract uses.
That pension plan is something that they contributed to, every payday, and contracted with their employer to match a certain percentage of their income to create, via sound investment and fiscal management, the funds necessary to support them when they retire.
As of 2003, CALPERS calculated that the average peace officer in this state lives less than 5 years after retirement. The job takes a toll.
All of us in PERS knew the numbers when we went in. We knew that making less money in the public sector would be offset when we retire by a decent retirement check.
If the governor of this state manages to put CALPERS out of business, and simply turn it into another 401K manager, the ramifications will be felt all over the world.
1) The people of this state will see a dramatic drop in the overall quality of people who enter the teaching, firefighting, and law enforcement professions in this state.
As has been said, there are folks out there who will take the job for less. Trust me when I tell you you don't want them in that postion when educating your children or your safety are on the line. I sure as hell don't.
2)CALPERS has become the largest self-funded retirement system in the world because of a number of things. One of thiose things is sound fiscal management. Those managers have invested in businesses, real estate, etc, throughout the world. If that cash was to be yanked, every one of us with a 401k would see a drop in the value of our portfolio.
CALPERS is respected in and courted by the financial world because of it's fiscal clout, and none of the politicans in Sacramento have their hands in it.
Perhaps that is why it is so sound.
3) Gov. Wilson saw the money in CALPERS, and also decided that he was going to steal it to balance the state budget. He stole the money, and several years later, after the case made it through the courts, he (the taxpayers) had to pay it back. With interest.
The key point is this The funds in CALPERS are not there because the taxpayers of this state got screwed, robbed or cheated. The money is there because a group of employers, (not just the state) bargained with a group of employees, (not just state employees) and they both contributed to a fund. That fund has grown, and been soundly invested. It is not some giant account of hidden taxpayer money that Arnie and his team are salivating over.
IT IS MY MONEY. Mine and every other public employee in CALPERS.
This is no different than if he was going after the Teamsters Union, or any other group that has contracted with the state to provide service.
No governor has any business sticking his nose into my pension fund anymore than he has sticking it into the Teamsters Union pension fund. If he wants to start bargaining with the people directly employed by the state of Ca. to reform pensions, let him do so. Let him sit down at the table like a man and talk to them. HE needs, however, to STAY OUT OF the local side of this.
This guy is a actor playing himself in the role of governor. He is going to try to use his public popularity to take the easy way out and screw the people who work for the people, because neither he nor the legislature has the sack to stand up and make the cuts necessary.
I have worked on our bargaining team for years. This county is just now realizing what is going to happen here over the next 5 years, when turnover in our 90 sworn agency will be about 75% as people retire. Lots of knowledge, years of it, are going to leave in what amounts to the blink of an eye. Since they do not pay enough to live here, there is no "long line" of folks waiting to take this job.
The negotiators on the other side tell me that over 75% of the general fund revenue that they operate the county on is mandated to go to state and federal social welfare programs.
That means that your local elected officals have actual control over about 25 cents on the dollar of the revenue(taxes) that come into the piggy bank. The pigs at the trough in Sacto and D.C. are spending the rest to empower themselves as the source of life to a dependant class that continues to vote them back into office.
For the rest of us, that sounds an awful lot like taxation without representation, folks. We had a little party in Boston a couple of hundred years ago over this, if memory serves me correctly.
Not bad for a cop! Well said, and I could not agree more! :boxed:

[Kilrtoy]

When I wrote what i wrote yes the taxpayers are public employee BOSSES so to speak...
Lets refelct back to when I accepted my job... I was told this is what we offer and guarantee you. I also had a job offer in the private sector paying double... But I paid for my retirement and health.... So I would be making about 1 and half of what job one offers... I took the lower paying job on the premise of these offers, GUARANTEED BENIFITS and future retirement...
now half way thru my career almost at its end, oh by the way you are now screwed he is what you get... Your damn right I have every right to be pissed off....as would you...
as the plan goes current employees will be offer to continue with the same retirement . but they will have to pay for me and my co workers what equals 35% of our salary... that is bullshit.....

[summerlove]

And therein lies the problem. School districts are notorious for being inefficient in their spending practices. they need to get better at spending their funds efficiently and in the proper areas. WhyTF did one So. Cal school district pay $2.5MM to wire an entire elementary school and when the job was done, it did not work right? WTF is up with that!?!?!?!?!?!
Scott, I love ya man, but...WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Until you have kids in the public schools, you will never know. Regarding the wiring project, sounds like poor design and even poorer contractors....
Do ya feel the love bro?
You're a good guy, just on the wrong side of right.... :hammerhea

[Kilrtoy]

KillerToyz, Are you in the D.R.O.P.S. program?
Or have something like it?
Pretty cool pention.
No I am not and god bless those men and women who are.....
and no it does not cost tax payers any more money.....

[summerlove]

Its so great to hear how the public employees are getting screwed and us in the private sector are doing so well.. Then you hear how much more the public employees could be making in the private sector. Come on over. However, you guys would have to pay into the Social Security system here, and good luck collecting on that. Oh, and BTW, there has not been one company that I have worked for that has offfered a pension plan. Matching 401k if lucky.
Arnold has helped California. We can only hope he keeps going and dosen't back down on his agenda. (like he did today :squiggle: )
I'm sorry you work for a company that does not offer a 40K plan. Most respectable companies in todays climate do - even McDonalds. Maybe you could work there.
regarding social security - I do pay into SS and Calpers! Many public emloyees are forced to pay into both systems due to old agreements and will never see a cent from SS. So, you can thank me for helping pay your SS retirement!
Oh, and I have been offered a number of private sector jobs that pay considerabally more, but to be honest, now that I am a "lifer" in the Calpers system, I can't afford to leave! Plus, I like my job. I contribute to the betterment of society, or so I'd like to think....

[Dr. Eagle]

So, you can thank me for helping pay your SS retirement!
Actually the way the Social Security Ponzi Scheme was concocted, you and I are paying for our parents... if they are still here as mine are. Our kids will be paying for us, so you aren't assisting the other fellow with his retirement at all. :sqeyes:
SS is a direct generational transfer tax... younger working pay for the older retired. It has also represented a great big pool of untapped money to be pilfered in the past before the numbers of retirees began to climb, so presidents and congress alike used it as a slush fund. Enough about that...

[haulina29]

If the school district that got screwed on the electrical job was spending there own hard earned money it would have never happened . Piss poor management is to blame for all the cash shortfalls in government . For a state to have come thru the last ten years and be broke has nobody to blame but there own sorry asses . Instead of bagging on Arnold go after some of the sorry left wing a holes spending your tax dollars like its water . Dont discount what Havasu Hangin said about the electrical job 5 contractors put our local school district into bankruptcy who do you blame I blame the moron writing the check ,.

[Ultrafied]

more false lies, that are being placed into UNINORMED peoples minds
UNINORMED? Oh, UNINFORMED ...... I was asking you the question since the other 3 referendums wouldn't necessarily affect YOU monetarily. Are we saying that are not 4 referendums that are trying to be put on the ballot by the Governor?
Not all of us are in the "private" industry as you imply later on, but then again, maybe there are more UNINORMED people then I thought.... :D

[Kilrtoy]

He has his measures that may go and may not go to the vote.... Right now he is playing games in regards to what he will do.
If you are in CALPERS, it effects everyone that is currently employed regardless of tenure. Now a few cities will step up to the plate and pay the newly formed cost if it makes it to the ballot and passes. Most cities can not afford to do this. You can still continue with the same retirement and health , YES YOU CAN, if you so choose to pay the cost.... for me that is a 35% pay cut in retirement alone..... Im am close to retirement and can not afford to lose this and switch over to that joke called a 401K.....
401k=enron, what retirement was that again

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Miguel,
I have a 401K, which is doing great......as well as other investments.....
This is my retirement.......I have to pay attention to what I'm doing...
The thing that us "private sector" guys hate is the civil service "Entitlement" mentality...
Just cause' you've had something for some time, like a perticular health plan or bonus, etc... doesn't make it a requirement for the duration of your job.
I have good years, bad years & great years in business.
I don't have any entitlement to my standard of living......When things arn't so good, I hunker down and ride it out. Maybe have to sell my toys & such.
The grocery store & dock workers BS........I don't get it......
They should be greatful for the pay and benefits they get and should be happy they have jobs.
Nothing is forever.......Times have changed....and so have the benefits....
CJG

[Kilrtoy]

Miguel,
The thing that us "private sector" guys hate is the civil service "Entitlement" mentality...
Just cause' you've had something for some time, like a perticular health plan or bonus, etc... doesn't make it a requirement for the duration of your job.
They should be greatful for the pay and benefits they get and should be happy they have jobs.
Nothing is forever.......Times have changed....and so have the benefits....
CJG
Ok entitlement, It is not...
I was guarenteed this specific Item as part of me accepting gainful employment. If it was a item that in writing said, hey you can lose this at any time, I would have gone into the private sector and made double a year of what I am making now.....
This is a contract i have agreed on.....
for the Gov to come in and thinks he can break it because he doesnt like it and is trying to balance a budget on me and my family is bullshit.....

[Flying Tiger]

LA Mayor Hemroidian tried to raid the LA employees pentions for billions.
The Onions lawyers found a legal clause that held specific politians and their appointees personally accountable for losses.
Everyone then ran for cover, and the plan was dropped, and has never raised it's ugly head again.
Your Onion has to take a tougher stand on this, get legal and fight, and start scaring those who are accountable.
You are entitled to what you were promised when ya took on the job. Anything else is ex post facto.
Most these laws came to being when the unfortunate Railway workers got boned on their pentions. (and the Gemco fiasco too)
The Guy for your Onion to talk to is:
Brian DeArcy
Local 18
IBEW
He led the fight against Mayor Riordian
You have rights,, don't get pissed, get fair treatment.
You'll win this one.

[bigkyle]

It's unfortunate that so many people have uniformed opinions and make rash decisions. It's this lack of knowledge that leads to the fool votes that have put lousy politicians into office and put this state so heavily into debt. The people continue to pass bond measure after bond measure. This is like living off your credit cards. Money has to come from some where. But screwing your employees isn't where. The public demands more, but isn't willing to pay for it.
Unfortunately, a good majority of people don't even know what h#ll they vote on because damn near every ballot measure is crafted with a deceitful title. Don't be fooled by the Gov.'s proposed ballot measures. His proposals to rape government workers will do little, if anything, to set the state on the correct path for financial health. CALPERS itself is healthy because it is not overseen by the politicians. The retirement packages paid to employees by the state, counties, and local cities currently amount to anywhere from 5-20% of total payroll depending upon the agency; not a huge sum. And this cost is primarily due to the downturn in the stock market and the politicians' decision to use excess earnings from the fund to support other government programs. During the 80's and 90's, most public agencies didn't pay ANYTHING into PERS becaused PERS investments were performing so well.
So now the people have to pick up the tab, as they should have been all along, but at a more reasonable cost. Don't worry though, it'll turn around again and the PERS investments will greatly lessen the burden on the taxpayer.
Oh yeah, I'm a 20 year public employee managing a water and sewer utility with half the employees of a private agency, keeping your roadways in the best shape possible with the measly amount of money granted me, and overseeing maintenance on a fleet of nearly 200 vehicles with three mechanics. And if you think we spend your tax dollars foolishly, ask your state representatives to change some of the F*cked up laws that govern what and how we do things. That's where change will be effective!

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

C'mon.....
Thats like the dock workers or auto workers saying....
"You can't let anyone go, or lay anyone off....We don't care if the whole business implodes...we're keeping what we've got"
Remember.....The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few.....
Your choice as a free man is to say "hey...I don't like what your doing, so I'm leaving"..
Look....If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't like it either.....But I wouldn't stand with my arms folded and focus only on myself.
We're all in this together......everyone of us Californian's.....
As a business owner, I have to make some pretty horrible decisions from time to time......Ones that affect entire households.......It's ugly....and it hurts.
But I know that I have to do it for the good of the many....
You have to draw a line or drive a stake somewhere !!!!!!
Finally we have a Gov that is willing to make the hard decisions.....
Even though thier not very popular.......
Tough times require tough measures.....
CJG

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

LA Mayor Hemroidian tried to raid the LA employees pentions for billions.
The unions found a clause that held specific politians and their appointees accountable for losses.
Everyone then ran for cover, and the plan was dropped, and has never raised it's ugly head again.
Your onion has to take a tougher stand on this, get legal and fight, and start scaring those accountable.
You should get what you were promised when ya took on the job. Anthing else is ex post facto.
Spoken like a true UAW worker......
Do you have a "Live Better - Work Union" sticker on the back of your 72' Celica ???

[Flying Tiger]

Spoken like a true UAW worker......
Do you have a "Live Better - Work Union" sticker on the back of your 72' Celica ???
No, on the back of my '02 GMC, proudly made by the UAW in Flint, Michigan

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

No, on the back of my '02 GMC, proudly made by the UAW in Flint, Michigan
Well buy that man a Miller.....(Great Union Beer)...... ;)
BTW.....GM lost what ??? a Billion Dollars last year.....
Here come the pink slips......
Hang on UAW !!!!!
CJG

[Kilrtoy]

Finally we have a Gov that is willing to make the hard decisions.....
Even though thier not very popular.......
Tough times require tough measures.....
CJG
All he is is a larger than life puppet , that has his strings pulled by a few EXTREMELY wealthy men.... He does all of his fund raising out of state....WHY
he is not making any hard decisions, some one else is calling the shots....

[Waldo]

No offense, but it's pretty hard to take a teacher seriously who can't spell "renege" or "reneging".
My children go to a private school because the public schools are a disciplinary joke wrapped in a fashion show wrapped in a popularity contest.
I don't even use the public school system at all, can I be excused from paying taxes to support it? Please?
I don't want to cut anyone's throat, of course, but I don't want to pay into a bloated, top heavy bureaucracy that has spun way out of control either.
I'm going to have to sign that petition. I owe it to my family.
Thanks
CA Stu
I bet your children's teachers have NEVER, EVER make a spelling mistake. Have you or any of your employees made a spelling error for that matterr??? Do you take them seriously? Don't blame public education for the shortcomings of children. From birth, THE PRIMARY EDUCATORS IN LIFE ARE PARENTS, NOT TEACHERS!
Why don't you give specific examples of why "public education is a joke and so wrapped in a popularity contest" instead of just saying it? Did you go to a public school? Are you a product of pubic education? If your children fail in life, will you blame thier private school teachers or the public system that is "out of control"?
I've got no problem with private schools, voucher programs or any other educational services. Do what you feel is the best for your children. Also, you don't have to pay taxes ever again. However, you might get in trouble with Uncle Sam.
BTW - No offense but, thanks for paying my celery, I mean salary! :D

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

All he is is a larger than life puppet , that has his strings pulled by a few EXTREMELY wealthy men.... He does all of his fund raising out of state....WHY
he is not making any hard decisions, some one else is calling the shots....
Miguel.....Miguel.....MIguel......
I don't have time for the "conspiracy theory" discussion right now..... :idea:
GO TO BED....... :sleeping:
You gotta get up pretty early in the morning to catch the bad guys........ ;)
Plus.....I gotta get early so I can pay for someone elses health care !!!!
Later Man !!!!! :clover:
CJG
:D

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Not the public school vs private school debate again.......
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67844&page=1&pp=25&highlight=public+school
CJG
:jawdrop:

[Kilrtoy]

Miguel.....Miguel.....MIguel......
I don't have time for the "conspiracy theory" discussion right now..... :idea:
GO TO BED....... :sleeping:
You gotta get up pretty early in the morning to catch the bad guys........ ;)
Plus.....I gotta get early so I can pay for someone elses health care !!!!
Later Man !!!!! :clover:
CJG
:D
Now this i will agree with you on, we both pay for other peoples health care , who do not belong in this country....
No bad guys just you,Steve and Jay tommorrow.....

[JC]

I'm a little confused about the mentality of "I accepted a public sector job" based on future guarantees. As far as I'm concerned, nothing is guaranteed, public or private, and I would like to understand how these "guarantee's" were made. It seems like private sector companies have to revise retirement and other benefits based on the financial health of their business, just like the State of CA should. Or worse, the ENRONS and WORLDCOMS, just go bankrupt and leave all of their employees holding worthless stock or 401K plans. Where's the guarantees for these employees? Maybe people should plan a little more for the future...
Bottom line, I'm looking forward to signing the reform petitions and the next recession so the "live for today" mentality, from the public or private sector, results in some really nice 1 year old boats on the market for .70 cents on the dollar!!

[JESSE]

i work for jusd and are retirement (calpers) is done on the 2% at 55 years old
that is 2 times years worked at 55 with at lest 5 years worked but is caped
at 75% so it is not 95 or 100% but it is good. that is the reason i took the job
in are case we get 5400$ a year to buy medical. i am not a teacher and i make 36,000 a year and at the top of the pay scale 8 years now. i'm the night lead at a high school also remeber when you think of teachers salary that they have to have 4 years of schooling at least and for new teachers it has to be on going. so they very well could make more money if they went into a nother filed. don't get me wrong i think that teachers have good jobs i think i have a good job but to say that we are over payed just is not true. would you go clean up after 3000 high school kids for 36 a year pluse supervise seven others. think who will be with your kids if you let arnold start paying us mcdonald wages with no back ground checks.thire your kids do what you will.

[Flying Tiger]

I believe in living up to contracts.
You are, and your government is, only as good as ones word.
The recruiting advertising, brochures listing benefits for CHP, LAPD, Sheriffs ect ALL tout the benefits if you choose a career with them.
It doesn't say anything about subject to revocation or change or reduction.
Risk your life, and spend your life as a career with us and this is what you get is clearly the recruiting theme.
2.9% of pay times years of service in many cases.
I hold up to all the contracts I make,, warts and all, I expect others too.
What makes this country great is enforcement of contracts.
When I was in the Marines I couldn't quit because their was a lot of lead in the air, I signed the contract.
If I re-enlisted and made it a career, they promised a pension at 20 years.
Well, a lot of those guys who "shipped over" got boned.
They moved it to 30 years when the guys hit 20,, then based it not on final pay, but final few years pay.
So who doesn't have to live up to their contract when dealing with the government?
A pension was promised at a certain rate,, it should be givin. Not the catch 22.
You can tell the new LEO recruits the truth,, that your pension is subject to reduction, even though that's bad,, it's at the least, the truth up front.
But don't promise then revoke after a lifetime of service.
We're talking about keeping agreements involving peoples entire lives here.
U= YOU
S= Signed
M= (the) M0t#erFu@kin'
C=Contract

[haulina29]

I know this isnt a public versus private school debate but its a classic example private schools hands are not tied by liberal horseshit that cost a fortune and is not good for the kids . Illegals are costing state and local governments a fortune as well as draging our great state itno the toilet . Close the borders and give the public employes what they have coming if not dont take it out of my pocket . If the the schools and the state do not have enough balls to get rid of all illegals in the schools step down and let the private sector do it . Close all hospital doors to any body who walked swam rode a bike etc into this counrty . You could retire very nice on what I pay a quarter in workmans comp it just went to 3k per every 20k payed out to my journeymen . I could supply kaiser to all my employes twice for what I pay a month in comp. go figure , By all rights Kilr should get what he was promised when he hired in its just damn frustrating seeing tax dollars waisted by local and state agencies . A contract is a contract .

[DAB]

I thought I'd put a piece of the Bill up. This looks to me that is does NOT apply to current employees only new ones... Sounds like Union to spin to me..
ACA 5
WHEREAS, It is the intent of this measure to prohibit, on and
after July 1, 2007, defined benefit plans for all public agencies and
to only authorize all new employees of public agencies to enroll in
a defined contribution plan; and
WHEREAS, It is the intent of this measure to establish the
California Public Employee Defined Contribution Plan, to provide for
fiscally responsible defined contribution plans; and
Just thought I'd throw that up....

[a catered life]

It's unfortunate that so many people have uniformed opinions and make rash decisions. It's this lack of knowledge that leads to the fool votes that have put lousy politicians into office and put this state so heavily into debt. The people continue to pass bond measure after bond measure. This is like living off your credit cards. Money has to come from some where. But screwing your employees isn't where. The public demands more, but isn't willing to pay for it.
Oh yeah, I'm a 20 year public employee managing a water and sewer utility with half the employees of a private agency, keeping your roadways in the best shape possible with the measly amount of money granted me, and overseeing maintenance on a fleet of nearly 200 vehicles with three mechanics. And if you think we spend your tax dollars foolishly, ask your state representatives to change some of the F*cked up laws that govern what and how we do things. That's where change will be effective!
spoken like a true vet and well spoken :smile:

[a catered life]

I bet your children's teachers have NEVER, EVER make a spelling mistake. Have you or any of your employees made a spelling error for that matterr??? Do you take them seriously? Don't blame public education for the shortcomings of children. From birth, THE PRIMARY EDUCATORS IN LIFE ARE PARENTS, NOT TEACHERS!
Why don't you give specific examples of why "public education is a joke and so wrapped in a popularity contest" instead of just saying it? Did you go to a public school? Are you a product of pubic education? If your children fail in life, will you blame thier private school teachers or the public system that is "out of control"?
I've got no problem with private schools, voucher programs or any other educational services. Do what you feel is the best for your children. Also, you don't have to pay taxes ever again. However, you might get in trouble with Uncle Sam.
BTW - No offense but, thanks for paying my celery, I mean salary! :D
i agree 100% bro

[1h20lowrider]

Their is no GUARANTEES?!?!~?!?!
I wonder if the people that are going to get screwed guaranteed top performance at what they do....Not on a piece of paper, but morally ...I have seen police,fireman and teachers give 100% at work and outside there job..Those type of jobs you are what you are 24 hrs. a day, and for those that say tough (nothing is guaranteed) I hope you understand when these people come to your aid they are giving it their all and that is guarateed and not on a piece of paper...I read and see people post that the retirement is too much for those people, HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT? if you busted youre ass for 20-30 years at what ever you do get what you can because life on this earth in not guaranteed! F*** arnold, and his puppet masters take there benefits and perks that taxpayers have to pay for!!!!!! See if they like that, and if they do not they should not be POLITICIANS or should go into the private sector!!!

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Their is no GUARANTEES?!?!~?!?!
I wonder if the people that are going to get screwed guaranteed top performance at what they do....Not on a piece of paper, but morally ...I have seen police,fireman and teachers give 100% at work and outside there job..Those type of jobs you are what you are 24 hrs. a day, and for those that say tough (nothing is guaranteed) I hope you understand when these people come to your aid they are giving it their all and that is guarateed and not on a piece of paper...I read and see people post that the retirement is too much for those people, HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT? if you busted youre ass for 20-30 years at what ever you do get what you can because life on this earth in not guaranteed! F*** arnold, and his puppet masters take there benefits and perks that taxpayers have to pay for!!!!!! See if they like that, and if they do not they should not be POLITICIANS or should go into the private sector!!!
First of all.......
No one really gives 100%........Right?
It's a nice phrase, hell even I use it now & then, but it's not accurate.
We all think we work hard and "Bust our ASS", but who can really give 100% each day......Not possible.....
I work on Police & Fire projects all year long.......bustin their ass 100% of the time......Sorry, not the case.....It's a job, just like ours, only a little more physical & dangerous at times.....But they enjoy the work, thrill & stature.
Bust their ass when the shit hits the fan....OK, many or most of them do.
Hell......My guys climb hundreds or a thousand feet high on communications towers each day.......Physical & dangerous, just not as glamorous......and all they have is a 401K with a match.......Just so we can watch TV each night.
As far a coming to your aid, yep, we're happy they do.....But's that's what they get paid for......They don't do anymore than any real man would do.....Help someone in distress or intervene when someone is being taken advantage of.....Their just better trained.....They still do it because it's the right thing to do !!
Running into a burning house to save a kid......I'm surrounded by men everyday that would do the same even at the cost of their own life.
So.....What are you saying......You'd like to pay more taxes ???? ....Or would you rather demand that these agencies tighten it up and operate within their means.....
Like I said before......I don't get a guarantied increase each year for doing the same thing like the teachers budget.....I have to perform, or I take a loss.....Do more with less.....The rest of do it !!!!
Ask guys like Photoglou how he makes his money, like me........Results......No guarantied pay increase !!!
As far as the politicians getting their money & bennies......I agree, the buck should stop with them first. Budget cut's straight across the line.......
Were you happy with that POS Gray Davis ???? What a sell out POS !!!!
At least Arnold is doing something.........No one likes change, but as usual, change end's up being good......We can do it now, or later when it's worse.
Quit looking out for yourselves and look at the whole picture. If most people did that, we could get some real change around here.....
Later,
CJG

[Dr. Eagle]

Excellent post. Not only do my colleagues and I work our collective butts off, we often put in 50 to 60 hours a week for 40 hours pay. How does that work into the salary equation?
Also, I can think of at least three employers in my professional life that have promised bonuses if certain goals were achieved and then either reneged or issued worthless stock options instead of cash. The contention that public employees make so much less is absolute bunk.
I had applied for a job as communications director in Monterrey county about a year ago, but just missed the deadline for submission. The job paid only slightly less than what I make today (the delta was about 4%). Given the security of a public sector job vs. private and the benefits, that job penciled out as a huge raise when all fringes were considered.
We all work hard, some harder than others. But the public sector employees that are having a hard time with the prospect of change all I can say is I am sorry about your predicament, but welcome to the real world.

[totenhosen]

Excellent post. Not only do my colleagues and I work our collective butts off, we often put in 50 to 60 hours a week for 40 hours pay. How does that work into the salary equation?
Also, I can think of at least three employers in my professional life that have promised bonuses if certain goals were achieved and then either reneged or issued worthless stock options instead of cash. The contention that public employees make so much less is absolute bunk.
I had applied for a job as communications director in Monterrey county about a year ago, but just missed the deadline for submission. The job paid only slightly less than what I make today (the delta was about 4%). Given the security of a public sector job vs. private and the benefits, that job penciled out as a huge raise when all fringes were considered.
We all work hard, some harder than others. But the public sector employees that are having a hard time with the prospect of change all I can say is I am sorry about your predicament, but welcome to the real world.
When I said something along the same lines I got called an asshole. GO figure?

[Dr. Eagle]

When I said something along the same lines I got called an asshole. GO figure?
Well I guess we both are... but we are private sector assholes... :D

[Flyinbowtie]

Just some food for thought, folks. I feel strongly about this because I know the facts. Can't seem to stay out of it. I wouldn't call anybody working for a living, in any sector, in this state an asshole. It isn't easy.
I know that facts are not likely to change the perception of anyone here, but perhaps they will clarify just what the numbers are, so that the discussion can have some logical foundation.
In Fiscal 2003-2004, the CALPERS retirement system had 1,002,067 active (working) employees in this state. That number was just about equally divided in thirds between state employees, school employees, and employees of local public agencies who particitpate in the CALPERS program. The program also had 416,783 retired employees.
The program received in approx. 2.2 million dollars in payroll deductions from those 1,002,067 working employees.
The program received 4.2 million dollars in matching funds from the state, school, and local agency employers. The matching funds are negotiated by each individual bargaining unit, and are arrived at by calculating the retirement actuarials each year when weighed against the performance of the investment funds. Some years the employers pay very little, some years they pay a little more. My employer went several years without paying anything into the PERS fund on the employer side.
The funds listed above were added to the revenue previously collected, and placed in CALPERS many diversified investments. The value of those investments in 2003-04 was 24,272,572,000.00 (+-)
(source www.calpers.ca.gov)
According to the state dept. of finance, (www.dof.ca.gov), the budget for this state in fiscal 2003-2004 was 71,137,000,000.00.
If we take that 4.2 million number listed above, compute it as a percentage of the state budget, what are we talking about folks?
Not much. And remember, that 4.2 million was divided among all the employers in the state, not just the state.
Now, to clarify some other issues. In the early eighties, many CALPERS member agencies tried to get out of the Social Security System. My bargaining unit tried, but we were about ten days late with our letter. We are in. Nobody gets out, so we are paying SSI, just like everybody else.
Overtime is NOT calculated into the final compensation figures for my CALPERS Safety retirement. I can work all the o/t I want the last year of my career, and it won't make one damn bit of difference in my retirement check. Not one.
Like alot of you, I am a taxpayer and a homeowner in this state. I am a third generation Californian, and have two sons. My sons both attended public school, cause I sure as hell could not afford a private school. My 16 year old has some significant learning disabilites, and is in a special ed program.
I am not happy with the Public School system, and believe that some major changes need to be brought forth. Accountability is the answer. Teachers are at the pointy end of the educational speer. They need to have the tools necessary to do the job, and then be held accountable for the results.
However, cutting the benefits from the CALPERS retirement system in an attempt to square up our budget problems is not the answer. As I have pointed out, there just is not enough money there to make a difference.
Prioritizing what is important to us and then demanding that our elected officials follow our priorties, not finding a scapegoat and doing some b.s TV spot is not going to do a thing for the system or the state.
Hiring qualified instructors, police officers, firefighters, teachers, etc. and then retaining them, while demanding a level of performance from them is what needs to happen.
Arnold's plans really won't have any effect on my retirement, but they will ultimately have a dramatic impact upon the quality of life in this state. We are already going through over 100 deputy sheriff candidates to find one who can pass a background, a shrink test, a written test, an oral board, a physical, and get through the academy.
Lowering the standards is not a good idea for our future as a state.
I live here. So will both of my sons, even the one serving in the Army when he comes home. So will my grandchildren some day.
If we want to cut the wages and benefits for public employees and really save a ton of money, then we need to be ready to accept the quaility of candidate we will have. We will compete for McDonalds paying $10.00 an hour, and other minimum wage businesses, because that is what we will be.
We, as taxpayers need to decide what quality of service we want in this state, and then pay for it. Because, as we all know from buying boats and other toys, we will ultimately get what we pay for.
That is the standard we as taxpayers should strive for. I am in full agreement that this is not the case in this state today. We are paying for things we do not want, and not getting the things we want to pay for.
Arnold is fighting a legislature that will not get it's head out of the pork barrel, and has made promises to us he wants to keep. He is taking these measures to the ballot because if he does not, it will look like he has done nothing. That is bad for a politician.

[haulina29]

FBT nicely done one point I do not agree on is you pay social security but your employer does not match your contribution and if my funds are used for evreything except what it was intended for your funds should match mine . The private sector should have the same options as you . With the number of people on the government payroll the half not payed is huge . H29

[Flying Tiger]

Shocking stats FBT, AbsoF@c#inlutely shocking.

[Speedin' Ian]

I read until about the third page before I stopped, I figured I had read enough. My question to these people (like Dr. Eagle) stating that the public employee gets too much retirement is this. What is the value of your children getting a good education? How about the value of having a police officer or firefighter saving yours and your loved ones life? How much should a firefighter get for running into a burning building which may collapse at any minute? Or how about a bus smashing into you on the freeway? What is a fair wage for being shot at? How much should we spend on educating the future leaders of this country? Do these people do these jobs because it makes them rich? Highly unlikely! Most likely they do it because they have a passion, but also because it gives them stability and a GOOD RETIREMENT. So here is good solution, take away one of the greatest benefits of having one of these jobs and what caliber employee will you attract then?
I can tell you right now I work for the private sector and make a lot more money than a lot of these public employees, but my retirement isn't as good. However I can plan ahead and make investments, insuring that my retirement is just as good and I will still make more money now. With that said I don't think my job is nearly as important as being a teacher, firefighter,cop, etc...
Tell me this if your life was on the line, what would you be willing to pay in taxes to insure that a qualified person was on the way to save your life?

[LOWRIVER2]

The reality is,I'm not going to have the pension that was listed when signed up 13 years ago. Guess that's why I live within my means. Small old boat, moderate priced river mobile, small old house.
Been maxed out on deferred comp since the start. I'm the son of public teachers, one high school, one elementary. I have 15 public teachers in the family. We were raised in a very fiscally conservative household as three kids. LAPD's pension is city based, not PERS so it's not as good. The DROP program is, in reality a rip off. I won't defend it. It was designed to keep older, more experienced men on the job. What happened was a bunch of old farts with 25-30 years (one year experience repeated 25 times, not other way around) taking up preferred, specialized spots while the rest of us contributers have been out in the trenches filling up LASO's jails.
What will come will not hurt me, I do what I do for myself, most CAN'T do what I do (less than 2% on my dept.), So with that Shaken not stirred, feel free to think you can, do a search on Metropolitan Division. Doubt you'd stack up.
The bill cuts survivor benefits for widows/children of cops/firefighters killed in line of duty/ they only will have coffin paid for. The individual's deferred comp is all the survivors get.
That's pretty pathetic.
But, like I always say, I do my job for myself,it's the best job in Ca. with a badge for those who like to work and actually fight crime.
To the specialized police badge holders who get paid to be security guards but say they're cops: "Fun time is over!"
This is a labor issue. Like posted earlier, those on the outside can sign petitions, those affected can vent, demonstrate. That's what makes a democracy.
And those of us in Metro will continue to work back to back 12-13 hour days with 2 hour turnarounds, no extra charge.
Shake stirred, don't talk about that which you know nothing about. If you DO work on LAPD towers, wander on into the second floor of Central station and look for the door with 114 on it, won't see any slackers (or beer guts) in that room. Sorry Charley, we earn our pay.
We have an old classified ad on our Armory door: A man's job with a man's pay: LAPD- 800 a month. Paper dated 1958.
I won't lie, I like the pension I have and support those who work to keep it. LAPD has been getting sub standard new hires for the last 3 years, so that's nothing new. I helped fire as many as I could when I was a training ofcr. Things have changed, hopfully the pension won't, but then, my boat's paid for, so I'll still be boating/lol.
Yeah Quaking not strong, we at METRO don't need to have blown big boats to get an adrenaline rush,we have a job that does it for us/LOL!!!
Oh, and to those who think public teachers sub standard, just be smart and don't say that to my face at the river. They are'nt the reason for all the screwed up kids, it's the workaholic, selfish "river rich" wannabe parents who don't spend time with their kids and hold them accountable to do the homework, studies that are given out. Look at the home, lot more that needs to be fixed there before complaining about teachers. Somehow, the size of one's home, type of SUV one drives have become more important than what JR is doing (or who he's doing it with).

[Waldo]

Oh, and to those who think public teachers sub standard, just be smart and don't say that to my face at the river. They are'nt the reason for all the screwed up kids, it's the workaholic, selfish "river rich" wannabe parents who don't spend time with their kids and hold them accountable to do the homework, studies that are given out. Look at the home, lot more that needs to be fixed there before complaining about teachers. Somehow, the size of one's home, type of SUV one drives have become more important than what JR is doing (or who he's doing it with).
Amen Brother!!!

[Waldo]

So.....What are you saying......You'd like to pay more taxes ???? ....Or would you rather demand that these agencies tighten it up and operate within their means.....
How about the state government taking some responsibility also?
Like I said before......I don't get a guarantied increase each year for doing the same thing like the teachers budget.....I have to perform, or I take a loss.....Do more with less.....The rest of do it !!!!
I didn't get a pay raise for two years! This last year's raise didn't even match COLA.
Ask guys like Photoglou how he makes his money, like me........Results......No guarantied pay increase !!!
That is very true...YOU MAKE MONEY BASED ON YOUR OWN RESULTS!!!!! If the "merit pay" measure gets passed, then my pay will be based on someone else's performance (my students). How is that right??? "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink".
I choose to work in a low socioeconomic area to work with a certain population. Not many teachers do the same. Furthermore, I am a special education teacher. My students have to take grade level standardized tests when they are reading at the three to five levels below their grade level (i.e., my 8th grader reads at a 3rd grade level). Their standardized test scores are not a valid measurement to base my pay.
Were you happy with that POS Gray Davis ???? What a sell out POS !!!!
Absolutely not...He initiated "accountability" with bonuses based on test scores (of which I do not agree as mentioned above). There were teachers in the state that earned these "accountability bonuses" upwards in the amount of $25K...Did they ever see the money??? Nope! Schools were not given the full amount either.
At least Arnold is doing something.........No one likes change, but as usual, change end's up being good......We can do it now, or later when it's worse.
Agreed, but make cuts across the board. California is one of the worst funded public education systems in the country. Prop 98 is a voter-passed initiative that was to be funded this year per Arnold's promise.
Thanks for the response SNT, I hope you see some of "our side" as well.

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

The reality is,I'm not going to have the pension that was listed when signed up 13 years ago. Guess that's why I live within my means. Small old boat, moderate priced river mobile, small old house.
Been maxed out on deferred comp since the start. I'm the son of public teachers, one high school, one elementary. I have 15 public teachers in the family. We were raised in a very fiscally conservative household as three kids. LAPD's pension is city based, not PERS so it's not as good. The DROP program is, in reality a rip off. I won't defend it. It was designed to keep older, more experienced men on the job. What happened was a bunch of old farts with 25-30 years (one year experience repeated 25 times, not other way around) taking up preferred, specialized spots while the rest of us contributers have been out in the trenches filling up LASO's jails.
What will come will not hurt me, I do what I do for myself, most CAN'T do what I do (less than 2% on my dept.), So with that Shaken not stirred, feel free to think you can, do a search on Metropolitan Division. Doubt you'd stack up.
The bill cuts survivor benefits for widows/children of cops/firefighters killed in line of duty/ they only will have coffin paid for. The individual's deferred comp is all the survivors get.
That's pretty pathetic.
But, like I always say, I do my job for myself,it's the best job in Ca. with a badge for those who like to work and actually fight crime.
To the specialized police badge holders who get paid to be security guards but say they're cops: "Fun time is over!"
This is a labor issue. Like posted earlier, those on the outside can sign petitions, those affected can vent, demonstrate. That's what makes a democracy.
And those of us in Metro will continue to work back to back 12-13 hour days with 2 hour turnarounds, no extra charge.
Shake stirred, don't talk about that which you know nothing about. If you DO work on LAPD towers, wander on into the second floor of Central station and look for the door with 114 on it, won't see any slackers (or beer guts) in that room. Sorry Charley, we earn our pay.
We have an old classified ad on our Armory door: A man's job with a man's pay: LAPD- 800 a month. Paper dated 1958.
I won't lie, I like the pension I have and support those who work to keep it. LAPD has been getting sub standard new hires for the last 3 years, so that's nothing new. I helped fire as many as I could when I was a training ofcr. Things have changed, hopfully the pension won't, but then, my boat's paid for, so I'll still be boating/lol.
Yeah Quaking not strong, we at METRO don't need to have blown big boats to get an adrenaline rush,we have a job that does it for us/LOL!!!
Oh, and to those who think public teachers sub standard, just be smart and don't say that to my face at the river. They are'nt the reason for all the screwed up kids, it's the workaholic, selfish "river rich" wannabe parents who don't spend time with their kids and hold them accountable to do the homework, studies that are given out. Look at the home, lot more that needs to be fixed there before complaining about teachers. Somehow, the size of one's home, type of SUV one drives have become more important than what JR is doing (or who he's doing it with).
If you could only look beyond the tip of your nose......Just past the chip on your shoulder......You would be amazed......and even enlightened..... :idea:
You don't have to swing a hammer to know something about construction.....On th same line, I have worked at every station in the City of LA, all 22 or so stations.....I work with with LAPD, LASD, LA City Fire, LBPD, NBPD, and so on......I have eyes and a brain....I see what goes on....... :notam:
Who knows why you took the job in law enforcement, only you know why, but it wasn't for the great pay.....Maybe it was to bust heads and get some respect......Again, only you know.......I commend you for dealing with all the POS people you have to deal with each day........But again, bustin your ass every day....?? :confused:
Teachers......Sorry....Not trusting my kids education to some mediocre public school teacher that can't be fired for being incompetant. I play an active roll in my kids education, as I have said before on the boards, no slacking on my watch. Hard work...homework....and accountability here at my house. I don't need some public school teacher filling my kids head with her idea of the world. Just teach my kids how to learn and I'll take care of the rest. :cool:
CJG
:cool:

[prop check]

OK, no more lurking I have to post... I can't expect anyone who does not know me to believe any thing but what the heck here it goes... I am in public service and have a college education and I make 21.00 dollars an hour. My hourly is the lowest of all my friends and only three dollars more than an aquantance who operates a recycling truck (trashman) in the O.C. (NO disrespect he works hard and is a good man) BUT, I took my job because of the retirement and the love of the work. The facts of the pension reform are that it eliminates the death benefit for cops and fireman killed in the line of duty.... and five years ago the CAL PERS pension system did not cost anything for a majority of cities due to high stock returns for the plan. Does anybody know where the money the state and cities saved went?????? so now that is said who wants the soap box? PLEASE JUST KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SIGNING.

[1h20lowrider]

First of all.......
No one really gives 100%........Right?
It's a nice phrase, hell even I use it now & then, but it's not accurate.
We all think we work hard and "Bust our ASS", but who can really give 100% each day......Not possible.....
I work on Police & Fire projects all year long.......bustin their ass 100% of the time......Sorry, not the case.....It's a job, just like ours, only a little more physical & dangerous at times.....But they enjoy the work, thrill & stature.
Bust their ass when the shit hits the fan....OK, many or most of them do.
Hell......My guys climb hundreds or a thousand feet high on communications towers each day.......Physical & dangerous, just not as glamorous......and all they have is a 401K with a match.......Just so we can watch TV each night.
As far a coming to your aid, yep, we're happy they do.....But's that's what they get paid for......They don't do anymore than any real man would do.....Help someone in distress or intervene when someone is being taken advantage of.....Their just better trained.....They still do it because it's the right thing to do !!
Running into a burning house to save a kid......I'm surrounded by men everyday that would do the same even at the cost of their own life.
So.....What are you saying......You'd like to pay more taxes ???? ....Or would you rather demand that these agencies tighten it up and operate within their means.....
Like I said before......I don't get a guarantied increase each year for doing the same thing like the teachers budget.....I have to perform, or I take a loss.....Do more with less.....The rest of do it !!!!
Ask guys like Photoglou how he makes his money, like me........Results......No guarantied pay increase !!!
As far as the politicians getting their money & bennies......I agree, the buck should stop with them first. Budget cut's straight across the line.......
Were you happy with that POS Gray Davis ???? What a sell out POS !!!!
At least Arnold is doing something.........No one likes change, but as usual, change end's up being good......We can do it now, or later when it's worse.
Quit looking out for yourselves and look at the whole picture. If most people did that, we could get some real change around here.....
Later,
CJGYour guys get 401k and match...If they feel they deserve more and believe it and you would post that it did not happen because your boss was a a**hole , believe me I will back you. If you take what they give you and dont stand up for yourself theres nothing I can do for you, even If I wanted to......
You are surrounded by guys that will risk there life for others, you are one lucky guy,you must feel safe everyday but Im positive that none of your guys are taking the 911 calls all day, but if they are please correct me......
You stated that what you and photoglu do ,you guys get results that means you must put 100% and so do I, believe me thats what I got to offer and I do this is not for results but because thats who I am( never half ass)
You stated stop "looking out for yourselves", Then who is ?the "politicians"...Im not a cop ,teacher, or fireman, but I would back them and Arnold and his people should look at themselves and the wasteful spending they do...... before looking somewhere else........
Again F*** arnold as his puppet masters !

[GMFL]

The program received 4.2 million dollars in matching funds from the state, school, and local agency employers. The matching funds are negotiated by each individual bargaining unit, and are arrived at by calculating the retirement actuarials each year when weighed against the performance of the investment funds. Some years the employers pay very little, some years they pay a little more. My employer went several years without paying anything into the PERS fund on the employer side.
What he doesn't tell us is that when the employers pay little, the market is doing well. Like with standard investments in 401k's stocks etc. When the market is bad, they get supported by the taxpayer.
When he went several years without paying into the PERS plan, the market was good. As soon as the market has a downturn, the taxpayer gets to pick up the slack. Although great for the Union guy not to great for the regular Joe. We actually get to ride the markets up AND down without a safety net.
What is funny is the public unions think that the public is getting a "break" when the markets are good and we are not paying into the PERS extortion system.
Just Ridiculous., gov't employees.......
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
Keep crying.

[Kegel King]

I will be signing one of those petitions as soon as i get up in the morning

[Dr. Eagle]

I will be signing one of those petitions as soon as i get up in the morning
:D :D :D :D

[Flyinbowtie]

What he doesn't tell us is that when the employers pay little, the market is doing well. Like with standard investments in 401k's stocks etc. When the market is bad, they get supported by the taxpayer.
When he went several years without paying into the PERS plan, the market was good. As soon as the market has a downturn, the taxpayer gets to pick up the slack. Although great for the Union guy not to great for the regular Joe. We actually get to ride the markets up AND down without a safety net.
What is funny is the public unions think that the public is getting a "break" when the markets are good and we are not paying into the PERS extortion system.
Just Ridiculous., gov't employees.......
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
Keep crying.
A couple more facts folks. Last time, I promise...
In only four of the last ten budget cycles have the employer contributions exceeded the employee contributions.
And by the way, There has never been a year that the employees do not pay their contribution. That only works for the employers.
Since my wife has a 401K, and I have a 457b, we ride the market, too.
You want to really go for a ride?
Yank the purchasing power of the largest investment firm in the world out of the marketplace. Lock CALPERS at it's current level, and start a 401k program. Call your 401k manager and ask what would happen if CALPERS ceased to be an independent investment entitiy. Ask what would happen if that monthly investment from CALPERS ceased to enter the marketplace. Ask what would happen if that money was simply replaced by another 1 million or so folks with a self-funded 401k, chosen at random by a large number of small groups of employees.
Then watch the air rush out of the Dow, the real estate market, the NASDAQ, S&P, etc.
No crying here, I am actually laughing at this point, I never expected to change any minds. Remember I said this won't effect my retirement. I've worke in both the public and private sector in my lifetime, both have their +'s and both have their -'s.
See you guys on the lake, we'll have a cold one.. :D

[Newcastle]

Amazing that all those signing the petition will actually want a 60+/- year old street cop showing up at their doorstep when they're in need. I hope you all realize that's what's gonna happen. No cop is going to be able to afford to retire at 50 or 55. Is everybody aware of the shortage of cops in Southern California? When you see billboards advertising for police jobs, thats pretty pathetic. When I was a kid its what I wanted to do. Yeah, I got my college degree from a respectable 4 year University, but passed up more money to do what guaranteed me a good retirement plan. Just wait until 1/4 of the cops out there retire the day the measure passes. It's not worth it. Nothing but losers will apply and the quality of life and public safety will deteriorate more rapidly than it already has been.
You actually think that these couple measures are going to fix our debt? Come on.
For those that get paid on RESULTS? Hah, I wish I could. No tips here. No bonuses for performance here. Nope. That's a gratuity and we lose our jobs. For the past few years, PERS has done so well, my city didn't pay a dime. Now that it did not perform as well is in the past, who picks up the slack? The officers do.
Realize that everything that is being brought to the table has been negotiated in the past, and this is where we stand. Recently we've lost some benefits in lieu of keeping what retirement we have, but that was part of negotiations. I just don't think it's right what Arnold's doing about this issue.

[bigkyle]

What he doesn't tell us is that when the employers pay little, the market is doing well. Like with standard investments in 401k's stocks etc. When the market is bad, they get supported by the taxpayer.
When he went several years without paying into the PERS plan, the market was good. As soon as the market has a downturn, the taxpayer gets to pick up the slack. Although great for the Union guy not to great for the regular Joe. We actually get to ride the markets up AND down without a safety net.
What is funny is the public unions think that the public is getting a "break" when the markets are good and we are not paying into the PERS extortion system.
Just Ridiculous., gov't employees.......
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
Keep crying.
Again, more uniformed opinions. Folks shouldn't debate things unless they really understand the facts. The notion that taxpayers, which I am, are viewed as a safety net when the market turns south is wrong. The only reason the taxpayers are seeming "picking up the slack" right now is because the taxpayers, based upon decisions by our politicians, stopped paying into the system the many years the market was performing well. Many agencies went so far as to make withdrawls from the CALPERS system to balance their budgets. Arnold's mission is to level, or define, the government's contrbutions of public employee retirement costs. Had this money continued to be contributed at nominal amounts and stayed in the CALPERS fund, there would be no issue today. You wouldn't be seeing these double digit percent increases in retirement contribution costs.
Everyone, please - get the facts before taking a position. Nuff Said.

[BoatFloating]

Again, more uniformed opinions.
I have a problem with this statement. Who are you to judge and say that a persons opinions are uniformed. I'm sorry you can't be the opinion police. If this is some kind of tatic to help the general public see your side it ain't helping. So I will ask again where is the dooms day info coming from? The unions? who and where......

[LOWRIVER2]

Hey shaken and stirred,
get it right, there's 18 stations in LAPD, METRO Div. sits atop Central Div. Station No. 19 opens later in the year as Mission Div.
Name your company so I can verify you actually even do what you say. Seen pot stirring people like you before make up what they actually do and where they work. What contract do you have with the city of LA?
Yeah, eyes and a brain. You sound like another chest thumping "boot strap" proclaiming self made ego mainiac that is all perfect, no one ever helps you in life. Get real. Look in the mirror, and please, don't call us when there's trouble, would love to see you handle your own problems and laugh when you can't handle what others are paid to do for you.
Pretty sure your kids will end up in one our "our cars" sooner or later with the "f-everyone else" attitude you try so hard to brainwash them with.

[MudPumper]

Oh, and to those who think public teachers sub standard, just be smart and don't say that to my face at the river. They are'nt the reason for all the screwed up kids, it's the workaholic, selfish "river rich" wannabe parents who don't spend time with their kids and hold them accountable to do the homework, studies that are given out. Look at the home, lot more that needs to be fixed there before complaining about teachers. Somehow, the size of one's home, type of SUV one drives have become more important than what JR is doing (or who he's doing it with).
Shaken, I commend you for taking an active role in your childs life and education, but what LR said above is how the world goes round now a days. You my friend are in the minority. My wife teaches 1st grade and I see on a first hand bases, daily, how the PARENTS are the ones failing miserably. ;)

[Jbb]

Hey shaken and stirred,
get it right, there's 18 stations in LAPD, METRO Div. sits atop Central Div. Station No. 19 opens later in the year as Mission Div.
Name your company so I can verify you actually even do what you say. Seen pot stirring people like you before make up what they actually do and where they work. What contract do you have with the city of LA?
Yeah, eyes and a brain. You sound like another chest thumping "boot strap" proclaiming self made ego mainiac that is all perfect, no one ever helps you in life. Get real. Look in the mirror, and please, don't call us when there's trouble, would love to see you handle your own problems and laugh when you can't handle what others are paid to do for you.
Pretty sure your kids will end up in one our "our cars" sooner or later with the "f-everyone else" attitude you try so hard to brainwash them with.
Lighten up copper.....RD said he could make a grease spot outta you! :D
Gary Sez...Honest Chief......The damm phone jumped right out in front of me! :D
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/106316.jpg

[ELVIS]

[QUOTE=Kilrtoy]..
He is attempting to screw every public employee in the state......
do these employee's include those helpful public servents at the dmv...

[Dr. Eagle]

[QUOTE=Kilrtoy]..
He is attempting to screw every public employee in the state......
do these employee's include those helpful public servents at the dmv...
I believe that would include all of the helpful public servants at all of the state agencies that are the beign of my existence at work... like the Divison of State Architect, Office of Statewide Health Planning and Development, Caltrans, General Services Telecom Division, CalEPA, and many many more. :hammerhea

[LOWRIVER2]

My dad taught, coached 38 years. I watched him growing up doing his lesson plans nightly at home on his own time and grade papers with explanations for the grades, written suggestions for the parents TO READ on EVERY paper.
Oh, and for every ASSCLOWN that says "Those who can't, teach"
-He played full academic scholarship to USC/PLAYED VARSITY Football
-Active LT./ USMC KOREAN WAR
-Came back and played semi pro football with John Robinson (fellow player) for Eagle Rock Eagles
Few if any males on this site have ever been battle tested, or could have had the intestinal fortitude/conviction to do what my dad did. He chose his profession because he saw the good in it. He never complained about pay, he just did his job with a level of excellence and attention to detail I rarely see in the private sector.
If you don't like the level of teaching at your school, get involved. If you just sit here and make generalizations about teachers without firsthand knowlwedge of what they do, go wax your boat, continue to live in your self absorbed, arrogant and ignorant bubble world. And stay off the low river, no assclowns allowed.

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Hey shaken and stirred,
get it right, there's 18 stations in LAPD, METRO Div. sits atop Central Div. Station No. 19 opens later in the year as Mission Div.
Name your company so I can verify you actually even do what you say. Seen pot stirring people like you before make up what they actually do and where they work. What contract do you have with the city of LA?
Yeah, eyes and a brain. You sound like another chest thumping "boot strap" proclaiming self made ego mainiac that is all perfect, no one ever helps you in life. Get real. Look in the mirror, and please, don't call us when there's trouble, would love to see you handle your own problems and laugh when you can't handle what others are paid to do for you.
Pretty sure your kids will end up in one our "our cars" sooner or later with the "f-everyone else" attitude you try so hard to brainwash them with.
Hey head case......
What's up with the personal attacks ???
Is that where poor verbal skills and a big chip get you LAPD ???
Hey....you picked the civil service job dealing with the world's scumb, not me.
The topic is a change in YOUR benefits....Right???.....
So the best that you can do when someone doesn't agree with you is to get shitty, huh?
All I said was that no one, even you, busts his ass everyday.....and that things change now & then......I still think you view it as entitlement and if you don't like the change, find another job.
Oh....BTW......We just finished Mission......Been to every division more than a few times.......also, just to keep you up to date, there's another 2 coming on line soon......So update your database....
Anyway.....I know its hard, but focus on the topic.....and take a couple deep breaths now & then.....you'll be OK....... :idea:
CJG

[LOWRIVER2]

No chip here, just shining the light on another guy who wishes he was a cop and did'nt make the grade. So he then has to go on a boat site and say all he sees are lazy cops and firefighters every day and that he's the most stand up/walking tall dad since the beginning.
Yeah, can't name your company, figures, your lack of guts in no surprise.
Probably one of the co's that does second hand work, then over bills the city. Unfortunately, they go with the lowest bidders.
Read my post whiner, I don't worry about my pension, I live within my means. I support keeping what I have, since when is that a crime?

[LOWRIVER2]

And while I'm here, let's get it straight:
If a disaster or civil disturbance hits, I can do your job, I'll just pick up a manual and figure it out. Would'nt be the same for you. When you can tell me you know how to enter a hot zone in a chemical attack, take control of a riot, or go after an active shooter(s) at LAX, etc. in an Immediate Action/ Rapid Deployment situation, call me.
You're skills are'nt worth much when the shit hits the fan, better go run to the river, at least you have a shiny boat. Leave the handling of reality to us "govt. rejects"/LOL!

[Dr. Eagle]

Lighten up copper.....RD said he could make a grease spot outta you! :D
Gary Sez...Honest Chief......The damm phone jumped right out in front of me! :D
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/106316.jpg
I could understand being in a hurry to make an emergency call.... but GEEEEEEEEEEEZE...... :hammerhea

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

No chip here, just shining the light on another guy who wishes he was a cop and did'nt make the grade. So he then has to go on a boat site and say all he sees are lazy cops and firefighters every day and that he's the most stand up/walking tall dad since the beginning.
Yeah, can't name your company, figures, your lack of guts in no surprise.
Probably one of the co's that does second hand work, then over bills the city. Unfortunately, they go with the lowest bidders.
Read my post whiner, I don't worry about my pension, I live within my means. I support keeping what I have, since when is that a crime?
Hey flatfoot......
If you go to my profile I'm sure even you can figure it out !!!!
If you can't, I'll draw it out with Crayons for you......
Wishing I was a cop....Please!....Not everyone was picked on in HS like you....
Be a cop so I can make a shitty $75-80K a year and deal with all the BS, no thanks.
Just keep racking up that overtime and you'll be just fine.....
CJG

[LOWRIVER2]

Oh, and get it straight Miss Shaken
LAPD OFFICERS PAY INTO THEIR OWN PENSION/ ALWAYS HAVE/ALWAYS WILL-GETS TAKEN OUT EVERY CHECK I GET
You're "awsome" company sure can't get my radio to work in Southeast. Always in a dead zone in Nickerson Gardens (Avalon/112th). Why don't you go over to Southeast, climb up the tower and fix that so us "lazy officers" can have a little more confidence in our radios when we need to use them.

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

And while I'm here, let's get it straight:
If a disaster or civil disturbance hits, I can do your job, I'll just pick up a manual and figure it out. Would'nt be the same for you. When you can tell me you know how to enter a hot zone in a chemical attack, take control of a riot, or go after an active shooter(s) at LAX, etc. in an Immediate Action/ Rapid Deployment situation, call me.
You're skills are'nt worth much when the shit hits the fan, better go run to the river, at least you have a shiny boat. Leave the handling of reality to us "govt. rejects"/LOL!
Well.......
You are a mental case....... :2purples:
You don't know me.......or even know what I do.....So your talking out your disgruntled ass....
What I can tell you is that it's a bit more difficult than what you do.....
Also...... I think you've been watching too much television......
Sorry....Gotta run.....My wife's HOT-ZONE is calling.........
Have a good evening "Chip"......
CJG

[little rowe boat]

Well as a public servant and after reading this thread,I now know which plugs to pull at the river. :D

[LOWRIVER2]

Yep, so WESTERN TECHNICAL is responsible for our DEAD ZONES all over the city then? Nice to know.
Yeah, surprise, I even have a B.A., imagine that. Too bad Advantage Boats made the poor decision to hire you for a spokesman. I'll be sure to pass along how they are anti cop over there since you represent the company.

[LOWRIVER2]

Not the smartest tool in the shed Miss Shaken to talk smack about cops/ firefighters. Why don't you go talk to Mr. Sepulveda. He might school you on the fact cops/ firefighters are in the majority in new boat sales. I'l be sure to post your comments over at the LAPD chat sites. We like to know who our detractors are.

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Yep, so WESTERN TECHNICAL is responsible for our DEAD ZONES all over the city then? Nice to know.
Yeah, surprise, I even have a B.A., imagine that. Too bad Advantage Boats made the poor decision to hire you for a spokesman. I'll be sure to pass along how they are anti cop over there since you represent the company.
Man.....I can see the saliva flying from here.......
Your a mess......You gotta' calm down........
Also...I don't do 2-Way radio flatfoot......
Only air to ground video downlinking for LAPD .....
I'm a helicopter guy......
CJG

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Not the smartest tool in the shed Miss Shaken to talk smack about cops/ firefighters. Why don't you go talk to Mr. Sepulveda. He might school you on the fact cops/ firefighters are in the majority in new boat sales. I'l be sure to post your comments over at the LAPD chat sites. We like to know who our detractors are.
So that's how you read this......
I'm talking smack about cops & fireman ????
We're talking about you being a pissy-bitch.....
I have a bunch of friends who are cops & fireman and none of them are as warped as you.....
I have alot of respect for cops, fireman & anyone else who does their job well.
Again....remember....the thread is about YOUR loss of benefits and the current situation in California, or is it just easier for you to keep making personal attacks.......
CJG

[little rowe boat]

I have a bunch of friends who are cops & fireman and none of them are as warped as you.....
CJG
So you are not going to support friends,trying to hold onto their pensions.

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

So you are not going to support friends,trying to hold onto their pensions.
All I said was that things change.......
If we can't afford to keep doing it the same way, then it has to be changed...
No, I wouldn't WANT to see anyone lose their pension, but things can't stay the way they are.....
How do you think the rest of the world does it without a pension ???
Other investments and financial responsibility......
Again....NO...I don't like seeing pensions lost.....and NO...I don't have the answer.
CJG

[LOWRIVER2]

Pissy bitch?
Yeah, you're a real man, you judge one's worth by income? LOL! That's how a true biatch would see things. No wonder you have no respect for teachers, they make less than you. Guess what, Private school teachers have less training/credentials/lower pay than most public teachers do. What to do? Are you going to home teach too?
Bottom line, you have warped, unfounded generalizaitions on civil service jobs and buy into the "all civil service jobs are for lazy, uneducated slackers". Hey, they're around too, but to paint it with a broad brush?...pretty lame.
You have a definate chip against cops/firefighters, your posts wreak of it.
As for pensions, there's two sides of the fence, we all will see what the outcome is.
I think you're just amazed how many of us civil guys are on this site. We must just be dirty cops to be able to afford such "exclusive boats" such as an Advantage/LOL!
Aw, don't worry, you won't lose much in sales, most cops buy Magic's Ultra's and Chapparal's (sp?) anyways.

[1h20lowrider]

Shaken not stirred dont confuse 1h20lowrider with lowriver...
Go to south central on a ride along see the sh** they have to deal with it, and Im not looking from the outside looking inn....I lived in south central for 20 yrs. and I know the stuff that goes down ....not everyone can be a tower guy or what ever you do......Look at my response to yours ,I think 2 pages back!

[LOWRIVER2]

1h20lowrider:
Thankyou!
Shaken not stirred appears to not be able to decipher between our screen names. I'm still laughing after he's continued to address me about my pension cuts after my first post here in which I wrote that I'm READY for it. Damn he's slow!

[Ultrafied]

Signed the petition this morning .... didn't even get paid for it either. :)

[dgie]

I flew out there from my home here in Texas and signed it, they only gave me $5 measley bucks, cheap bastards ;)

[totenhosen]

Bottom line, you have warped, unfounded generalizaitions on civil service jobs and buy into the "all civil service jobs are for lazy, uneducated slackers". Hey, they're around too, but to paint it with a broad brush?...pretty lame.
You have a definate chip against cops/firefighters, your posts wreak of it.
Not to pick a fight here but you seem very hypocritical. I believe you said that you could pick up a manual and learn everyone's job quite easily. Talk about a chip on your shoulder and elevating ones job status above everyone else.
I guarantee you that 99% of all people here have respect for what police. teachers and firefighters do. But you guys make up a small % of the public sector.
One question I had to the other poster is that if the Calpers program doesn't cost the state or taxpayers any money why would the Gov. consider taking it away? Just to be an ass and piss off people? There is more to it.
I also wonder how many of you guys upset at the possible changes supported the grocery store workers and their fight? From an outsiders point of view it seems very similar. But I do think that cuts should be made elsewhere first before one takes away thigns from workers because eventually it costs all working men and business owners.

[Faster Daddy]

I'll be signing that petition, hell I'd sign it 20 times if they'd let me! My problem is I don't think Aronld can go far enough, I'd privatize as much of the government as possible! Competition in pricing, performance based pay........................
I come from a family with 4 retired LAPD officers, and have the utmost respect for the job and the men/women who do it day in and day out. I just think that pension reform will be a positive step.
That said, I think 'Shaken Not Stirred' got it right, LOWRIVER2 you do come off as a Pissy Bitch! You sound like your about 5' 2", small pecker, middle child, red headed, pumped up on steriods, had your ass kicked by a girl in elementary school, and took the job for a power trip. :confused: But I could be wrong :notam: I think it was this quote that gave me the impression....
And while I'm here, let's get it straight:
If a disaster or civil disturbance hits, I can do your job, I'll just pick up a manual and figure it out. Would'nt be the same for you. When you can tell me you know how to enter a hot zone in a chemical attack, take control of a riot, or go after an active shooter(s) at LAX, etc. in an Immediate Action/ Rapid Deployment situation, call me.
:cry: :eek: :cry: :220v: :cry: :yuk:

[Sleek-Jet]

Not to pour salt in any wounds, but here's a look at what a fiscally responsible pension plan can do...
Taken from Colorado's Public Employees Retirement Association website:
A Brief History
Founded by the state Legislature in 1931, the Association initially provided retirement benefits to state employees only and was called the State Employees’ Retirement Association (SERA). By the end of its first 10 years, SERA had more than 4,000 members, 112 retirees, and more than $1,000,000 in assets. In 1943, legislation renamed the organization the Public Employees’ Retirement Association (PERA) and allowed cities, school districts, and colleges to join.
For the first 20 years, investments were limited to United States Government Bonds or Colorado state, school or municipal bonds. Rates of return averaged 2.75%. Members and employers each contributed 5% of salary.
By the end of 2003, the fund had over $30 billion in assets available for benefit payments, with 170,991 contributing members and 63,988 benefit recipients. PERA now maintains a diversified portfolio of investments, while adhering to a long-term, strategic asset allocation policy.
my emphasis added
The legislature would love to get their hands on that money, but it's safe (for now at least). Public employee's in Colorado don't pay into Social Security, they pay 5% into the PERA plan with the employers matching that...
5%.... think about that... and no FICA.... someone should take notes....

[LOWRIVER2]

Bottom line:
If you support the governor's plan, sign the petition, if you don't, don't sign it. It's that simple. My dept. does'nt have CALPERS, so it does not affect me directly. I simply stated I'm against it. The plan as it is now calls for taking away the survivor benefit to families of officers/firefighters killed in the line of duty, I'm against that.
As for my comments to Shaken not stirred, yeah, I get personal. I simply call out those who make generalizations about my profession without backing it up with true observations of what we do. Climbing up towers, walking around a police station a few times does'nt qualify knowing what people in a certain profession do/act as a whole.
I re read my comments, yeah, I came off a little hot headed. Guess I'm a little aggressive/lol. I call spades where I seem them and it's only a boat site.
Faster Daddy, I know you really did'nt mean what you said. However, if you ever want to meet up to discuss pensions, my youth, or drug use, feel free to contact me, I'm not hard to find.

[haulina29]

I get pissed of at the way things are done all the time in government alot I do have first hand knowledge of I deal with state local and county agencies on a daily basis . Its not Lowrivers fault that some agencys suck he cant straighten out what he has no control over his attitude changed when some started baging on him and his profession . I do not agree with death benefits period I do not beleive a cop or firefighters life is worth more than a plans checker at the county desk it is a a choice to take these type sof jobs . reform is needed I do not agree with cal pers or any special government retirement that the private sector cannot get in on . On the other hand to take money out of there accounts to balance something else is wrong,to not honor what they hired in with is wrong but to change for new hires is fine with me . If you cut benefits and wages nobody would want the job and cops would be like mall security guards is that what we really want . On another note I have been a GC for 30 years my first job was with La County and I was in the first group to be in pers and I built my first house with the money at 19 years old . At that time when you quit or your job was done you could get the money if i remeber correctly there was a small penalty for taking the money . I would like to spend a day with him and show him what I see but im sure hes seen it all in his profession . he knows what red tape is all about .

[Sherpa]

I was curious why the person approached me at Target last week... I didn't
read, listen, or sign anything at the time.
I've been in private sector doing the same type work for 19 years. I've worked
for 3 different employers... 7 years, 1 year, and this one for 12 years. I
haven't had a raise in 6 years. we just got back a 5% pay cut that lasted
for 3 years of those 6.... retirement-? yeah, right..... my employer hasn't
contributed to our 401K for about 2 years now.... they just did begin to
re-contribute now.... I have a job because I'm damn good at what I do,
I show up to work everyday, ready to work. there are no guarantees here.
You work hard, you get to come back tomorrow. period..........
social security that I am paying into now is paying for my parents. before
they retired, I was paying for my grandma....... will I ever see any of MY
contributions for myself-? I dunno. but I paid for my family, so I see that
as a positive.....
--sherpa

[Highlimit9000]

First of all.......
No one really gives 100%........Right?
It's a nice phrase, hell even I use it now & then, but it's not accurate.
We all think we work hard and "Bust our ASS", but who can really give 100% each day......Not possible.....
I work on Police & Fire projects all year long.......bustin their ass 100% of the time......Sorry, not the case.....It's a job, just like ours, only a little more physical & dangerous at times.....But they enjoy the work, thrill & stature.
Bust their ass when the shit hits the fan....OK, many or most of them do.
Hell......My guys climb hundreds or a thousand feet high on communications towers each day.......Physical & dangerous, just not as glamorous......and all they have is a 401K with a match.......Just so we can watch TV each night.
As far a coming to your aid, yep, we're happy they do.....But's that's what they get paid for......They don't do anymore than any real man would do.....Help someone in distress or intervene when someone is being taken advantage of.....Their just better trained.....They still do it because it's the right thing to do !!
Running into a burning house to save a kid......I'm surrounded by men everyday that would do the same even at the cost of their own life.
So.....What are you saying......You'd like to pay more taxes ???? ....Or would you rather demand that these agencies tighten it up and operate within their means.....
Like I said before......I don't get a guarantied increase each year for doing the same thing like the teachers budget.....I have to perform, or I take a loss.....Do more with less.....The rest of do it !!!!
Ask guys like Photoglou how he makes his money, like me........Results......No guarantied pay increase !!!
As far as the politicians getting their money & bennies......I agree, the buck should stop with them first. Budget cut's straight across the line.......
Were you happy with that POS Gray Davis ???? What a sell out POS !!!!
At least Arnold is doing something.........No one likes change, but as usual, change end's up being good......We can do it now, or later when it's worse.
Quit looking out for yourselves and look at the whole picture. If most people did that, we could get some real change around here.....
Later,
CJGJust a Job just like yours???
I wish you could only know what it's like to search a burning bedroom for trapped children, flames rolling above your head, your palms and knees burning as you crawl, the floor sagging under your weight as the kitchen below you burns.
I wish you could comprehend a wife’s horror at three in the morning as I check her husband of 40 years for a pulse and find none. I start CPR anyway hoping to bring him back knowing intuitively it's too late but wanting his wife and family to know everything possible was done to try and save his life.
I wish you knew the unique smell of burning insulation, the taste of soot-filled mucus, the feeling of intense heat through your turnout gear, the sound of flames crackling, the eeriness of being able to see absolutely nothing in dense smoke-sensation that I've become too familiar with.
I wish you could understand how it feels to go to work in the morning after having spent most of the night hot and soaking wet at a multiple alarm. I wish you could read my mind as I respond to a building fire...Is this a false alarm or a working fire? How's the building constructed? What hazards await me? Is anyone trapped? Or to an EMS What is wrong with the patient? Is it minor or life threatening? Is the caller really in distress or is he waiting for us with a 2x4 or a gun?
I wish you could be in the emergency room as a doctor pronounces dead the beautiful 5 year old girl that I have been trying to save during the past 25 minutes, who will never go on her first date or say the words "I love you mommy" again.
I wish you could know the frustration I feel in the cab of the engine, squad or my personal vehicle. The driver with his foot pressing down hard on the pedal, my arm tugging again and again at the air horn chain as you fail to yield the right of way at an intersection or in traffic. When you need us, however, your first comment upon our arrival will be "It took you forever to get here!"
I wish you could know my thoughts as I help extricate a girl of teenage years from the remains of her automobile. What if this was my sister, my mother or a friend? What was her parent’s reaction going to be when they opened the door to find a police officer with hat in hand?
I wish you could know how it feels to walk in the back door and greet my parents and family, not having the heart to tell them that I nearly didn't make it back from the last call. I wish you could know how it feels dispatching officers, firefighters and Paramedics out and when we call for them and our hearts drop because no one answers back, or a bone chilling 911 call of a child or wife needing assistance.
I wish you could feel the hurt as people verbally and sometimes physically abuse us or belittle what I do, or as they express their attitudes of "It will never happen to me". I wish you could realize the physical, emotional and mental drain, missed meals, and lost sleep, forgone social activities in addition to all the tragedy my eyes have seen.
I wish you could know the brotherhood and self-satisfaction of helping save a life, preserving someone’s property, being able to be there in time of crisis or creating orders from total chaos. I wish you could understand what it feels like to have a little boy tugging at your arm and asking "Is mommy o.k.?" Not even being able to look into his eyes without tears from your own and knowing what to say. Or to have to hold back a long time friend who watches his buddy having rescue breathing done on him as they take him away in the ambulance. You know that all along he didn't have his seat belt on. A sensation that I have become to familiar with. Unless you have lived with this kind of life, you will never understand or appreciate who I am, who we are or what our job really means to us.....I wish you could though.
So the next time you see or hear the sirens, pull out of the way quickly and pray for them and the person they are going to help for it may be someone you love.
Author Unknown

[Waldo]

performance based pay........................
I posted this earlier and I'll post again. However, nobody has responded to it. Think about this when you are signing that petition:
YOU MAKE MONEY BASED ON YOUR OWN RESULTS!!!!! If the "merit pay" measure gets passed, then my pay will be based on someone else's performance (my students). How is that right??? "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink".
I choose to work in a low socioeconomic area to work with a certain population. Not many teachers do the same. Furthermore, I am a special education teacher. My students have to take grade level standardized tests when they are reading at the three to five levels below their grade level (i.e., my 8th grader reads at a 3rd grade level). Their standardized test scores are not a valid measurement to base my pay.
How is this a good measure for "performance based pay?"

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

Pissy bitch?
Yeah, you're a real man, you judge one's worth by income? LOL! That's how a true biatch would see things. No wonder you have no respect for teachers, they make less than you. Guess what, Private school teachers have less training/credentials/lower pay than most public teachers do. What to do? Are you going to home teach too?
Bottom line, you have warped, unfounded generalizaitions on civil service jobs and buy into the "all civil service jobs are for lazy, uneducated slackers". Hey, they're around too, but to paint it with a broad brush?...pretty lame.
You have a definate chip against cops/firefighters, your posts wreak of it.
As for pensions, there's two sides of the fence, we all will see what the outcome is.
I think you're just amazed how many of us civil guys are on this site. We must just be dirty cops to be able to afford such "exclusive boats" such as an Advantage/LOL!
Aw, don't worry, you won't lose much in sales, most cops buy Magic's Ultra's and Chapparal's (sp?) anyways.
Do you actually re-read what you write.....
Your a fool.......
I work with cops/firefighters almost every day of the week.....
A bunch of decent hard workin' guys & gals who make a difference.....
No chip here pal......
Again more of your personal BS about boats & money & such......
You need to keep focused.......Please try to stay on topic......
You should get out more often........
and not just with the criminal element........
Just because someone doesn't agree with you.....Doesn't make them wrong.
It's called an opinion......everyone is allowed one.....
Debate your point like a man and use your knowledge, verbal & written skills to change peoples opinions.......
It's way to easy to leap into personal attacks when your not getting the outcome you desire......
Again.....convince me and the others who are not being affected why we should look at it like you do.....
I respect you for being passionate about what you believe in, just focus it in the right direction.......State the facts......
I'm trying not to let you suck me in on the personal attack thing......
If I did.....I apologize.......
Later,
CJG

[Dr. Eagle]

I posted this earlier and I'll post again. However, nobody has responded to it. Think about this when you are signing that petition:
YOU MAKE MONEY BASED ON YOUR OWN RESULTS!!!!! If the "merit pay" measure gets passed, then my pay will be based on someone else's performance (my students). How is that right??? "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink".
I choose to work in a low socioeconomic area to work with a certain population. Not many teachers do the same. Furthermore, I am a special education teacher. My students have to take grade level standardized tests when they are reading at the three to five levels below their grade level (i.e., my 8th grader reads at a 3rd grade level). Their standardized test scores are not a valid measurement to base my pay.
How is this a good measure for "performance based pay?"
My pay IS based on how others do. As a project manager, I don't really DO anything but watch, look and listen to (Monitor) what is going on and do my best to keep it pointed the right way, and to intervene when necessary to correct course.
It is a time tested and proven concept. I don't see a lot of difference...

[hoolign]

I can do your job, I'll just pick up a manual and figure it out.
I'd like to see that!...youd shit your pants out here!
idiot!

[Ziggy]

This is what I like to refer to as ironic. I remember the same people telling me to vote for him.
Ding-Ding-Ding....winnnaaaa. ;)
I can't wait to sign it :p :D :D :D

[Waldo]

My pay IS based on how others do. As a project manager, I don't really DO anything but watch, look and listen to (Monitor) what is going on and do my best to keep it pointed the right way, and to intervene when necessary to correct course.
Sounds like a typical manager type position. You are the one that probably evaluates them and as you say "point them in the right direction".
I don't see a lot of difference...
You're kidding right??? I have students with IQs of 70. I CAN'T FIRE MY STUDENTS...YOU CAN FIRE AN EMPLOYEE THAT IS NOT PERFORMING.
All of my students are sub-standard (grade level) for a reason. They qualify for special education services because of having a learning disability.

[haulina29]

Waldo sometimes you have to change I started out in commercial work which I enjoyed No homeowners for the last 15 I have done homes you cant always do what you want that is such a public employee mentality . Take a history teaching job or something .

[Dr. Eagle]

Sounds like a typical manager type position. You are the one that probably evaluates them and as you say "point them in the right direction".
You're kidding right??? I have students with IQs of 70. I CAN'T FIRE MY STUDENTS...YOU CAN FIRE AN EMPLOYEE THAT IS NOT PERFORMING.
All of my students are sub-standard (grade level) for a reason. They qualify for special education services because of having a learning disability.
Now that is funny. I have employees with IQs in the same range. Oh and have you ever tried to fire anybody at a large company before? No?
Well it is just about as easy as trying to have a student disciplined. It can take as long as a year. Some just reassign the tough cases to other projects... pass the problem along to the next guy. Sound Familiar? All that time you have to get the job done. Like I said before, there isn't all that much difference... oh and...
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD

[haulina29]

So many people have gone thru school then college then took a teaching job and have no clue what the real world is like and before everybody starts goin off I put my daughter thru IU for law and she is now a teacher . Good kid never been a bit of trouble and she sure fits the mold i am refering to . Sometimes her view on how things work scares the shit out of me . As soon as she graduated she felt evreybody owed her a job she felt because of her education that she deserved the job Her first job was with slow kids so I had to listen to how its our fault these kids are slow now its we need more money for teachers and supplys she cant understand how much money goes to public schools now , she never had to balance a budget as I have and held accountable . I dont want to hear about the schools problems its time public education figured it out for there self just like the private sector work with what you got or shut it down . We are tired of footin the bill and hearin about it .

[SHAKEN Not Stirred]

So many people have gone thru school then college then took a teaching job and have no clue what the real world is like and before everybody starts goin off I put my daughter thru IU for law and she is now a teacher . Good kid never been a bit of trouble and she sure fits the mold i am refering to . Sometimes her view on how things work scares the shit out of me . As soon as she graduated she felt evreybody owed her a job she felt because of her education that she deserved the job Her first job was with slow kids so I had to listen to how its our fault these kids are slow now its we need more money for teachers and supplys she cant understand how much money goes to public schools now , she never had to balance a budget as I have and held accountable . I dont want to hear about the schools problems its time public education figured it out for there self just like the private sector work with what you got or shut it down . We are tired of footin the bill and hearin about it .
Careful Pal......
You're walkin a thin line with that......"Real World View" shiat ...... :rolleyes:
The UAW, NAACP, IBEW & LA Teachers Union will be all over you by morning..... :argue:
Hehe! :wink:
Later,
CJG
:)

[Waldo]

Now that is funny. I have employees with IQs in the same range. Oh and have you ever tried to fire anybody at a large company before? No?
Well it is just about as easy as trying to have a student disciplined. It can take as long as a year. Some just reassign the tough cases to other projects... pass the problem along to the next guy. Sound Familiar? All that time you have to get the job done. Like I said before, there isn't all that much difference... oh and...
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD
How would you know if your employees have an IQ of 80 or less??? Do you administer an IQ test? I would be interested to know. Does your company have a CBI (community based instruction/vocational unit)?...I doubt it in telecommunications. Don't try and tell me you know the IQ of your employees because I'm sure it is not a "pre-requisite" to have them IQ tested. You might think they are "slow" but you probably don't know for sure.

[Jbb]

Tom Brown is slow.....He once hooked battery jumper cables up to his testicles...Just for grins.....Set phazers on stun Tom......ZZZZZZZZAAAAAP! :rollside:

[Dr. Eagle]

How would you know if your employees have an IQ of 80 or less??? Do you administer an IQ test? I would be interested to know. Does your company have a CBI (community based instruction/vocational unit)?...I doubt it in telecommunications. Don't try and tell me you know the IQ of your employees because I'm sure it is not a "pre-requisite" to have them IQ tested. You might think they are "slow" but you probably don't know for sure.
No it was a bit tongue in cheek, I'll give you that. But sometimes I wonder where the flock they come up with the things they do. But what I said is absolutely true about firing people. Last time I managed to was 10 years ago and took a year. And this guy was a total screw up... he was on his third company vehicle (wrecked the first two and did 9000 dollars damage to his third).
Also I have people that work for me that have their own agenda and plan to do thing their way no matter what I say. You may know the type... "I've been here for 30 years and I've never seen it done that way"... Do you have that problem too?
Yes we do have an accredited internal university and yes they do in fact offer college credits and I have earned quite a few, thank you very much.
Regardless, it is all about pointing the troops the right way and measuring deliverables... I still don't see that much difference.
But until I walk in your shoes and you in mine... we'll both be members of "conjecture connection"...
Regardless, I signed the petition and will vote for the measure. :220v:

[Waldo]

Also I have people that work for me that have their own agenda and plan to do thing their way no matter what I say. You may know the type... "I've been here for 30 years and I've never seen it done that way"... Do you have that problem too?
Yes, some "veteran" teachers have a different philosophy and are reluctant to any type of change.
Yes we do have an accredited internal university and yes they do in fact offer college credits and I have earned quite a few, thank you very much.
This wasn't an attack of your own education. A CBI or Workability program places learning hadicapped students within the workforce. They start as a volunteer and if they are able to meet the requirements of the employer, they are then hired by the company. If this program was in place at your work, you would have known their IQ could lower.
But until I walk in your shoes and you in mine... we'll both be members of "conjecture connection"...
AGREED!
Regardless, I signed the petition and will vote for the measure.
I hope other people exercise their right to vote as well. Hopefully I have shed some light on my situation regarding merit pay.
Also, I hope people actually read these measures and make educated decisions instead of basing their vote on ad propagana (both sides).
Here is a Rand Corporation link about California public education. It doesn't just say that we are under funded. It also sheds light on teacher qualifications, measuring student achievement, etc. In a system that isn't "up to par", taking money away (that was supposedly garunteed by prop 98) isn't the answer. Give it a try! California Schools Lag Behind Other States (http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/01.03.html)

[Dr. Eagle]

Waldo,
I am sure your position has some definite merit. Perhaps the answer is in how the measurment is taken, not just on who is being measured. I can't imagine that the measurements would be the same between your students and some of the MENSA types, I guess you'd kind of have to be graded on a curve... (LOL). :D
Regardless, I will print that report when I have time (this evening) and read it... I promise that I will do that. :supp:
Our company does have a good internal university, one of the few in the industry that does by the way. I didn't think that you weren't attacking my education... I didn't understand where you were going though... now I do.
The whole education situation seems to be a canundrum in this state, nothing seems to fix it. Certainly throwing money at it hasn't, and that is pretty obvious (again my opinion, but shared by many).
Regardless, good spirited discussion. :boxingguy ;)

[Racer277]

Regardless, good spirited discussion. :boxingguy ;)
Sure as long as some off duty cops don't find Shaken at the sand bar. :eek:

[Dr. Eagle]

Sure as long as some off duty cops don't find Shaken at the sand bar. :eek:
Nah... I don't think they'd risk their pensions over a simple little difference of opinion... :smile: Well, I guess that depends on how the initiative vote goes... :rollside: :wink:

[hotlavey]

No offense, but it's pretty hard to take a teacher seriously who can't spell "renege" or "reneging".
My children go to a private school because the public schools are a disciplinary joke wrapped in a fashion show wrapped in a popularity contest.
I don't even use the public school system at all, can I be excused from paying taxes to support it? Please?
I don't want to cut anyone's throat, of course, but I don't want to pay into a bloated, top heavy bureaucracy that has spun way out of control either.
I'm going to have to sign that petition. I owe it to my family.
Thanks
CA Stu
Agree and well spoken. I'm signing also. A very close friend of ours is the head of the English dept at her school and she, as well as a number of other teachers, are also signing. They are all fed up with the inefficiencies and bureacratic nonsense of the school and the teachers union.

[Waldo]

I am sure your position has some definite merit. Perhaps the answer is in how the measurment is taken, not just on who is being measured. I can't imagine that the measurements would be the same between your students and some of the MENSA types, I guess you'd kind of have to be graded on a curve... (LOL).
You made a funny!!! Good one.
Thanks for reading the Rand article. I will not rely on my union, CTA, or NEA for the only source of info regarding these issues. I have read, and will be reading more, in order to educate myself about all the reform components and other measures up for reform. I encourage everyone else to do the same.
Nice talkin' with ya Dr. :argue: