Buried Ammunition

[Her454]

According to the news this morning in Sacramento, there are several area's with "live buried ammunition" dating back to the 60's.
I know that in Roseville at the Railroad yard about 5-6 years ago they were doing some surveying and found (by accident) some live bombs that were from a Railcar accident back in the 70's. They were building several new homes in the area and detonated the bombs during the night for safety reasons. I lived within 3 miles of the railyard and it blew 2 of my windows out when they detonated them during those 3 days.
Now they are saying that there are several more area's that have buried ammunition including out by CFW where several new homes are being constructed, and out near the Sacramento Wildlife Refuge. I also know there are several places out by Marine Corp Air Station in Yuma (AZ) where there are live bombs in the desert from training sessions.
My question is, does a realtor have to disclose this information when sellling property? And, how do they even keep track of this information to know where the stuff is buried? I'd hate to be digging a pool with a tractor and find something by accident and be blown to shit. Am I missing something here?
????????

[Jbb]

According to the news this morning in Sacramento, there are several area's with "live buried ammunition" dating back to the 60's.
I know that in Roseville at the Railroad yard about 5-6 years ago they were doing some surveying and found (by accident) some live bombs that were from a Railcar accident back in the 70's. They were building several new homes in the area and detonated the bombs during the night for safety reasons. I lived within 3 miles of the railyard and it blew 2 of my windows out when they detonated them during those 3 days.
Now they are saying that there are several more area's that have buried ammunition including out by CFW where several new homes are being constructed, and out near the Sacramento Wildlife Refuge. I also know there are several places out by Marine Corp Air Station in Yuma (AZ) where there are live bombs in the desert from training sessions.
My question is, does a realtor have to disclose this information when sellling property? And, how do they even keep track of this information to know where the stuff is buried? I'd hate to be digging a pool with a tractor and find something by accident and be blown to shit. Am I missing something here?
????????
Just stay off the tractors...and you will be fine... :cool:

[cdog]

According to the news this morning in Sacramento, there are several area's with "live buried ammunition" dating back to the 60's.
I know that in Roseville at the Railroad yard about 5-6 years ago they were doing some surveying and found (by accident) some live bombs that were from a Railcar accident back in the 70's. They were building several new homes in the area and detonated the bombs during the night for safety reasons. I lived within 3 miles of the railyard and it blew 2 of my windows out when they detonated them during those 3 days.
Now they are saying that there are several more area's that have buried ammunition including out by CFW where several new homes are being constructed, and out near the Sacramento Wildlife Refuge. I also know there are several places out by Marine Corp Air Station in Yuma (AZ) where there are live bombs in the desert from training sessions.
My question is, does a realtor have to disclose this information when sellling property? And, how do they even keep track of this information to know where the stuff is buried? I'd hate to be digging a pool with a tractor and find something by accident and be blown to shit. Am I missing something here?
????????
A natural hazard disclosure is as good as it gets. How would a realtor know of a train derailment 45 years ago? If your within a half a mile from the train tracks in yorba linda I disclose it. But it also says that in the NHD report.

[Her454]

Just stay off the tractors...and you will be fine... :cool:
Some people think My Tractors Sexy.................... ;)
A natural hazard disclosure is as good as it gets. How would a realtor know of a train derailment 45 years ago? If your within a half a mile from the train tracks in yorba linda I disclose it. But it also says that in the NHD report.
That was my question...if the Realtor does not know, who would? Does the Government keep track of Ammunition derailments? The railroad? Who buries this crap and who keeps the treasure map?

[cdog]

Some people think My Tractors Sexy.................... ;)
That was my question...if the Realtor does not know, who would? Does the Government keep track of Ammunition derailments? The railroad? Who buries this crap and who keeps the treasure map?
Good luck on finding any information. The Gov tries to hide and forget all of their half ass clean up jobs. They don't fix or clean anything unless it's found and proven to hurt someone. There are dumps for waist and rocket fuel soiled land all over socal where their are homes being built right now. It gets some media attention, past that who knows what really happens.

[Her454]

Thats some scary shit, seriously.

[Unforgiven]

Good luck on finding any information. The Gov tries to hide and forget all of their half ass clean up jobs. They don't fix or clean anything unless it's found and proven to hurt someone. There are dumps for waist and rocket fuel soiled land all over socal where their are homes being built right now. It gets some media attention, past that who knows what really happens.
sounds like the company I work for.....

[Havasu Luvr]

You would be surprised just how much sh*t is bury around the world. Up to the early 80's there was little control as to what/how excess ammo was disposed of. BB stackers and EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) would pretty much take the easy course of disposing which usually meant underground when oportunity allowed. Not that I was every involved in such activities :D You may want to do a search on the city of TierraSanta (San Diego area). I was involve in a very extensive clean-up in that city back in the early 90's. Seems the city of San Diego allowed growth on Camp Elliott (military base w/artillery ranges) in what is now the city of Tierra Santa without any surface or subsurface clean-up. Early 80's 2 children found a live 37mm HE projectile and started to hammer on it....well it fuctioned as designed and kill both youths. It took almost 10 years to place blame and have a civilian DOD contractor to win the contract for clean-up. I was on the 1st phase back in 1991 to perform surface and subsurface (3') on every inch of soil. You would be amazed on how the local/federal governments work together on a no fault situation......I decided after 6 months out of 7yrs contract that I had enough with the local residence/government resistance that I gave them my walking papers. I am not one to sit and be part of a "Dog & Pony Show". Good luck in your neck of the woods and remember, If you see a EOD personel running? Be a close 2nd place :eek:

[Sherpa]

does anyone else find it extremely hot that her454 mentions she can run
a tractor for digging pools............... cool......
--I read the story in the Chico ER this morning.......... not really too surprized.
--Sherpa

[Unforgiven]

does anyone else find it extremely hot that her454 mentions she can run
a tractor for digging pools............... cool......
--I read the story in the Chico ER this morning.......... not really too surprized.
--Sherpa
she doesn't run the tractor for pools...it for disposing of the bodies :eek:

[cdog]

Back around world war 2 the gov was preparing for a jap attack. My grandfather says half of everywhere you see was a storage facility or training for troops and weapons. At that time orange county and north LA was nothing but dirt to try out new weapons. This whole place is pretty much a brownfield. The scary part is when they remove all that dirt and contaminates they replace it with fill dirt. Look at what happend here in anaheim hills with those 3 mill dollar homes sliding down the hill because of unstable fill dirt. Were dooomed! :squiggle:

[Her454]

You would be surprised just how much sh*t is bury around the world. Up to the early 80's there was little control as to what/how excess ammo was disposed of. BB stackers and EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) would pretty much take the easy course of disposing which usually meant underground when oportunity allowed. Not that I was every involved in such activities :D You may want to do a search on the city of TierraSanta (San Diego area). I was involve in a very extensive clean-up in that city back in the early 90's. Seems the city of San Diego allowed growth on Camp Elliott (military base w/artillery ranges) in what is now the city of Tierra Santa without any surface or subsurface clean-up. Early 80's 2 children found a live 37mm HE projectile and started to hammer on it....well it fuctioned as designed and kill both youths. It took almost 10 years to place blame and have a civilian DOD contractor to win the contract for clean-up. I was on the 1st phase back in 1991 to perform surface and subsurface (3') on every inch of soil. You would be amazed on how the local/federal governments work together on a no fault situation......I decided after 6 months out of 7yrs contract that I had enough with the local residence/government resistance that I gave them my walking papers. I am not one to sit and be part of a "Dog & Pony Show". Good luck in your neck of the woods and remember, If you see a EOD personel running? Be a close 2nd place :eek:
This is crazy! Maybe a dumb question but do they even have a conscience as to how deep they bury that crap? I'm sure there have been more than 2 fatalities from these situations. My sister used to live out in Clyde, Calif and I cant remember exactly what is out there but its something Military and in the 70's I remember protests on the tracks to keep them from hauling live ammo out there.....I was young so I dont remember much but I bet her old house (and the ones still out there in that growing community) are sitting on a time bomb. Maybe Im losing my mind but it seems that something needs to be done about this and the Government needs to be held accountable. If I lost a child to something like this and found out that someone KNEW about it being there, I would be the Governments next Erin Brokovitch (sp?) and their worst nightmare.
does anyone else find it extremely hot that her454 mentions she can run a tractor for digging pools............... cool......
--Sherpa
My ex husbands family owns a large Pool Business in Sacramento and I learned to run them then. Seriously....its actually fun.
she doesn't run the tractor for pools...it for disposing of the bodies :eek:
ROTLFMAO......Only when needed.

[Havasu Luvr]

This is crazy! Maybe a dumb question but do they even have a conscience as to how deep they bury that crap?
Up to the 80's the only documentation would have been the personel on scene. Since the mid 80's the rules have changed dramatically. Local and federal EPA have actually more control then most peeps think when it come to EPA and base closers. Mostly we need to be concerned with old military installations that have been non active for the past 20yrs or so. Most peeps dont know the Rice OHV area off of Rice Road is an old artillary range used for prepreaction for WWII. It has never been officially surfaced cleared do to the fact of constent blowing wind yet BLM has designated it to be an OHV area...go figure ! ! ! :jawdrop: Also, there is CuddyBack (south of Red Mt/Johannesburg) use to be a old Air Farse bombing range....I believe it was surfaced cleaned by Air Farse personel in the late 70's/early 80's by a few of my old EOD buds and let me tell you something....it was much easier to bury items in the desert the to draw expolsives, transport it and set a charge (blow & go) while you were TDY. Just do your home work in any area you wish to invest in and ASK alot of question....the only DUMB Question is the one that was never asked.
Lot of you peeps dont know that the I40 was involved in a haevy surface clearance prior to construction. WWII excerises were conducted extensively in Ca Az. & the Nv deserts by Gen Patton troops. Mostly artillary and tank rounds such as 75mm & 90mm HE with BD (M49 base detonating) fuzes. Just remember you are not the only person to ever walk on the ground you are standing on... :cool:

[DCBob]

[QUOTE=Her454]My sister used to live out in Clyde, Calif and I cant remember exactly what is out there but its something Military and in the 70's I remember protests on the tracks to keep them from hauling live ammo out there.....I was young so I dont remember much but I bet her old house (and the ones still out there in that growing community) are sitting on a time bomb.
Port Chicago Naval Weapons Station :crossx:

[Dr. Eagle]

Some people think My Tractors Sexy.................... ;)
That was my question...if the Realtor does not know, who would? Does the Government keep track of Ammunition derailments? The railroad? Who buries this crap and who keeps the treasure map?
As I remember they did a total remediation on the yard and removed another 12 or so bombs. My understanding is that they did not know that the bombs were there until they began a revamp of the rail yard. I don't know how a Realtor would have known. :hammer2:

[Her454]

Up to the 80's the only documentation would have been the personel on scene. Since the mid 80's the rules have changed dramatically. Local and federal EPA have actually more control then most peeps think when it come to EPA and base closers.
Im sure its a safe bet to assume that more was NOT documented than we care to know. I know out at YPG (Yuma Proving Grounds) there are signs everywhere warning Off roaders NOT to ride in that restricted area and that it is a testing range. Every once in awhile you hear of the idiot that finds a live bomb the hard way. BUT at least there are warnings out there!
Port Chicago Naval Weapons Station :crossx:
Thats right, thank you. Right off Port Chicago Hwy....and if I remember correctly, the town of Clyde used to be called Port Chicago...? I remember the town being very small and lots of old foundations from homes etc out there....we used to play on them. :o It was always spooky out there to me. LMAO, I remember we were riding dirt bikes out there exploring them when we heard Elvis died....... the things you remember :o

[Dr. Eagle]

[QUOTE=Her454]My sister used to live out in Clyde, Calif and I cant remember exactly what is out there but its something Military and in the 70's I remember protests on the tracks to keep them from hauling live ammo out there.....I was young so I dont remember much but I bet her old house (and the ones still out there in that growing community) are sitting on a time bomb.
Port Chicago Naval Weapons Station :crossx:
I lived in West Pittsburg (now Baypointe) and I could see the ammunition ships at the docks being loaded from the deck in my back yard. They stored NUKES there too...

[Her454]

As I remember they did a total remediation on the yard and removed another 12 or so bombs. My understanding is that they did not know that the bombs were there until they began a revamp of the rail yard. I don't know how a Realtor would have known. :hammer2:
You are correct, they were surveying the yard as they were going to be rebuilding and doing some upgrades and found them. Im not saying a realtor would have known that, but the railroad damn sure should have. They have an accounting of how many bombs, etc are loaded on to a train, and when that accident happened, they should have accounted for all of them. It was a horrendous explosion/derailment back then and the bombs that were found recently were HUGE. I just cant imagine they went unknown for all these years. I no nothing about bombs (and dont care to find out either) so Im not sure how hard it would be to account for bombs after something like this but it seems if surveyors found it..............then the railroad could have. ??
BTW, for anyone that is interested, there is an incredible museum in Roseville that has several exhibits and the story surrounding this incident. Lots of old train stuff etc....
I was more referring to the situation out near Wheatland (CFW area) and in Sacramento where they mentioned on the news this morning.

[Her454]

I lived in West Pittsburg (now Baypointe) and I could see the ammunition ships at the docks being loaded from the deck in my back yard. They stored NUKES there too...
Ok, NOW I remember. Thats why the protests. I remember a guy in a wheelchair that was blocking the tracks due to those Nukes.............

[Dr. Eagle]

Ok, NOW I remember. Thats why the protests. I remember a guy in a wheelchair that was blocking the tracks due to those Nukes.............
I think that was the guy that got run over by the ammunition train and lost his legs in a protest...
Port Chicago was the town that was leveled in an explosion in I think it was 1942 or 1943 and the area around the docks remained Port Chicago, but the Navy never let them rebuild the town.
The Naval Weapons Station was actually called the Concord Naval Weapons station. It is in mothballs now... not closed... not active either.

[Her454]

I looked it up, interesting reading. I never knew the history there. Sad actually. The protest I'm referring to had to have been in 77 or 78 tho? I wish I could remember more about it....
http://www.ezl.com/~fireball/Disaster22.htm
http://intergate.cccoe.k12.ca.us/pc/the_site.htm
http://www.portchicagomutiny.com/history/history.html

[Oldsquirt]

The Naval Weapons Station was actually called the Concord Naval Weapons station. It is in mothballs now... not closed... not active either.
It is still plainly visible from Highway 4 as you head east over the hill to the Pittsburg/Antioch area. Clyde is the small community on the north side of the highway at that same point.

[Oldsquirt]

I looked it up, interesting reading. I never knew the history there. Sad actually. The protest I'm referring to had to have been in 77 or 78 tho? I wish I could remember more about it....
Can't remember the exact dates either although I think it all started in the late Vietnam era. One of the leaders of the protests laid down on the tracks in front of a train leaving the weapons depot. Can't believe he thought the train would, or even could, stop.

[Her454]

Can't remember the exact dates either although I think it all started in the late Vietnam era. One of the leaders of the protests laid down on the tracks in front of a train leaving the weapons depot. Can't believe he thought the train would, or even could, stop.
This is bugging the hell out of me...I did a search and cant find anything on that incident.

[Oldsquirt]

Found this one little blurb.......
In 1987, a group of protesters led by Brian Willson staged one demonstration that included a plan to block a munitions train with their bodies. Something went wrong. The train engineer was told the tracks had been cleared. He pushed the throttle and started across the road. Willson tried to get out of the way. He fell toward the oncoming train and was pulled beneath the iron wheels. One leg was severed by the train, the other was beyond saving and was amputated at a hospital.
I remember at the time hearing conflicting accounts of whether he fell, knelt or simply sat on the tracks. If you do a search on "Brian Willson" you will find more info, but only from one side of the story.

[Her454]

Found this one little blurb.......
In 1987, a group of protesters led by Brian Willson staged one demonstration that included a plan to block a munitions train with their bodies. Something went wrong. The train engineer was told the tracks had been cleared. He pushed the throttle and started across the road. Willson tried to get out of the way. He fell toward the oncoming train and was pulled beneath the iron wheels. One leg was severed by the train, the other was beyond saving and was amputated at a hospital.
I remember at the time hearing conflicting accounts of whether he fell, knelt or simply sat on the tracks. If you do a search on "Brian Willson" you will find more info, but only from one side of the story.
1987? Thats the year Brit was born!? Did this happen more than once? HIghly unlikely but what am I thinking of that happened in the 70's then? Have they protested out there all these years maybe and Im confusing it?

[Flyinbowtie]

Her 454;
During the 40's-50's Beale AFB, then called Camp Beale, was MUCH larger than it is now, and there was a fairly large contingent of Armor there. (Tanks, Field Artillery, etc.) These units trained and fired both live and inert ordinance on the base. When the military downsized Beale, and it became an AFB, the property they gave up was put up for sale, people built homes, etc.
Suffice it to say that more than once I have been called to assist some citizen who unearthed a large caliber round from those days. Beale will respond a team and take control of the ordinance.
There is also a major effort being put forth by Beale and the A.F. to contact every property owner that is now on former Camp Beale property, with an offer of a free assesment and examination of there land to check for unexpended ordinance. Lots of people are taking advantage of the offer, some are not. This program has been going on since at least 2001.
Since land that is part of the Former Camp Beale is probably going to come up as such in a title search, I think a disclosure would have to happen.
I would surmise that all of the area being newly developed now, including the areas in Nevada and Yuba Counties, have been or will be swept.
If you need more info, call me I can get it for ya. :D

[Her454]

Thanks FBT. Im not looking to buy property in any of the area's in question, but of course CFW caught my attention and I was shocked that this happens!
Im happy to hear there is at least an effort in place to clean some of it up.

[spectras only]

I would worry more about the A-bomb that was on
board [ the early 60's] of a bomber enroute to Alaska :220v: .The airforce found the plane and burned it ,
but no one knows where the bomb really is ,in the bottom of the ocean or in the woods :rolleyes:

[Her454]

I would worry more about the A-bomb that was on
board [ the early 60's] of a bomber enroute to Alaska :220v: .The airforce found the plane and burned it ,
but no one knows where the bomb really is ,in the bottom of the ocean or in the woods :rolleyes:
You've got to be kidding?

[spectras only]

Saw the program last week on discovery channel about it.
I remember when an A-bomb was lost over the spanish
coast.They fished that one out :D . There was one lost
over Quebec too :hammer2: .I think that was found as well :supp:

[Her454]

Isn't there an old military installation somewhere across the bridge in Havasu? Site 6 maybe........ where they did testing back in the early 70's or 60's?

[Kindsvater Flat]

The one on the Sac refuge was spilled recently by a retired fish and game guy. He was one that actually helped dig the hole. This is just a few miles from my work.

[Norseman]

There's a couple of sites out here on the east coast as well.
They had an explosion at the old Hercules Munitions factory in Kenvil, NJ about 10 years ago. It blew most of the windows out of a strip mall about 1/4 mile away. Apparently some deer stepped in the wrong spot. :2purples:
They have small explosions out there a couple of times a year, from wildlife. The guards patrol on a road inside the fence and are told DON"T go off the road. :messedup:
They had a big explosion there in the 40's and about 50 people were killed, but that one was right outside the plant.
I can remember playing in Orangeburg, NY as a kid in some tunnels on an old Army gunnery practice range and finding lots of lead, and some very old live 50 caliber rounds. The brass was in really poor condition. It was the practice range from Camp Shanks, a WWI and I think WWII base.
When I showed it to my father, he took it, and got rid of it. :burningm: