BB FORD VERS BB CHEVY

[WATERROCKET]

WELL , CAN THE 460'S COMPETE WITH THE 502'S.
I NEED SOME OPINIONS!!!!!!!!!!!

[gnarley]

Well think about it, what do most major builders use???

[WATERROCKET]

gnarley, chevy cheeper to build? or just make more hp.

[Craig]

Every couple of years some of the hot rod magazines do a comparrison on buildups between all the major engines. They lay down some ground rules on what can be used and let the machine shops go. The motors always come in reasonably close in power, typically in the 400-500 hp range. Boat builders use Mercruisers because they are available, reliable and a good deal on the price they pay. If someone started offering the same thing with a Dodge that wasn't as expensive, I think you'd see them switch. They're in business to make money, period. If they can provide something that doesn't hurt the other requirements, and makes them more money, I think that's what they'd do. I don't believe they use a Chevy over a Ford because they think it makes more power. Just my opinion though. It's a business decision, $$$$$$

[mister460]

Also Ford doesn't make the 460 anymore but Chev does make the 502. Marketing. Look at the '70's Ford, Chev, and Olds. Cause they were all available. If you put together a BB Ford and BB Chev with similar specs they'll make similar power. Reliability is just how you treat it.

[WATERROCKET]

mister460, the stock 88 460 has 340hp.
where do you you see the best gain to get it over the 400hp mark.

[gnarley]

Originally posted by mister460:
Also Ford doesn't make the 460 anymore but Chev does make the 502.
Waterrocket, I think overall the BBC is way easier to find parts for than a BBF, hence parts prices should be cheaper to a point and easier to find with a larger selection of possibilities. Also what year of BBC makes a difference as well. Choose wisely depending on your needs.
Originally posted by mister460:
If you put together a BB Ford and BB Chevy with similar specs they'll make similar power.
I don't think so! The BBF has known bad reversion in the exhaust port side of the head and the intake is so large that the air is lazy in there. The BBC for the most part is good out of the crate. If you go with aftermarket on both, yeah they probably do make the same but the BBF will cost more.
[This message has been edited by gnarley (edited May 22, 2002).]

[FoMoCo]

Ok I have to through in my 2 cents...
I have a lot of friends with both Ford & Chevy, but I myself am a Ford guy!! I strongly believe it based on how well you match your parts, no matter if its a small block or a big block. I have seen BBC that do amazing things, and I have also seen BBF that do EXACTLY the same! As far as the price goes, I think if you look around and don't buy the first place you come to, you can build a BBF for about the same price as a BBC. I know because I built a DAMM strong BBF 429, 10.8:1 compression, Comp Cam 280, and a little work to the stock heads netted me a best of 76MPH(so Far) on an 18ft jet boat!!!! this boat will do over 80 mph when I am done fine tunning! I also built it on a really small budget!!

[gnarley]

Originally posted by FoMoCo:
I think if you look around and don't buy the first place you come to, you can build a BBF for about the same price as a BBC. I know because I built a DAMM strong BBF 429, 10.8:1 compression, Comp Cam 280, and a little work to the stock heads netted me a best of 76MPH(so Far) on an 18ft jet boat!!
Well I hope it runs that well in a jet! Put it in an offshore style boat and see what it does. How many BBF's are in fast, large size, heavy displacement boats? How much does your jet weigh? It’s quite easy to build a 70+ MPH jet isn't it? How many RPM’s at 76 MPH? What is done to your pump? What you did to make yours go 76 MPH you could do from most BBC’s out of the crate or just a good rebuild with NO head work & it will turn 6500 RPM's if needed. What are the flow spec's on the stock heads from both? I don't remember anymore but seems to me that the BBF fell off at about 5200 RPM's or even less due to the intake flowing way more than the exhaust could remove, the BBC didn't have that problem. Most of them will easily run to 6500 with the right cam, but who wants to run that RPM all the time? For me I am happy to run a 3300 lb boat with an I/O deep V and cruise at 3500 RPM @ 52 MPH and know I have a lot of RPM left and can save some fuel to.

[FoMoCo]

Notice I said 429BBF( 3.59 stroke), if it were a 460 I would be at 80 mph already. But I want to squeeze this motor an run it over 6,000 rpms! My pump was just rebuilt to stock specs with the addition of a ride-plate and shoe! I am spinning 5500 rpm's right now! The heads where home ported by me! I installed 2.19 & 1.76 vavles to help flow a little better, I am hopping to snag a set of Cobra-jet heads or just bite the bullet and buy a set of allumiun Blue Thunder heads!! and if you wnat to compare crate engines Ford has some bad boy motors of there own to buy from a crate 460 (560 hp)
514 BBF (600 hp). So if thats your idea of a stock engine than Ford is right there with the Bow Tie boys.

[gnarley]

FOMOCO, those are good numbers but tell me why don't more boat builders & manufactures use Fords? There must be advantages or else they would be using something else to achieve their numbers for cost, power, speed, reliability, etc. One thing I can think of is parts availability. I might be wrong but I'd bet that there were 5 to 10 times more BBC's built than BBF's starting from the mid 1960’s, (not including the 390, 427 or 428 Fords) meaning that replacement costs are less for the more readily available engine. The generation IV BBC has been around since 1965 & did not change it’s basic design until 1992 I think. How long did Ford keep it’s standard BBF design around? I think Ford does OK on it’s engines but some I just don't understand like the ports on a 460. Maybe a boat builder will read this and explain why the Chevy/GM is the choice of most all manufactures.

[spectras only]

Gnarly ,the 460 was mighty fine with dove heads for the MARK III Lincolns ,hence everyone changes to these heads with the dreaded A2A heads that was designed to curtail emissions.I've put these heads on 460's and 429's like fomoco .With a better cam from ford [like the 443 Motorsport cam 130 $ CDN] you up performance tremendously.You can find dove heads for as little as 2-300 $ CDN.It won't brake the bank .The only pricey item was the cast iron SCJ intake [429 fame],because OMC bought them up for their 460 King Cobra drive model ,thus depleting stock.There are no longer available.You have to get the Weiand intake from now on.I just saw a couple SCJ intake in the buy and sell for 225 CDN.Sounds pretty cheap to me. I have a 1970 LS 6 [450 HP]in my v-drive boat,parts are not that cheap for that either. Basic 300/330 HP BBC are relatively cheap.

[058]

Boat builders use the BBC because GM is the only supplier of crate engines in large voluumes. Ford didn't want any part of the marine business, as they put it "we are in the business to sell cars, not engines." As for the 460 not being able to spin over 5200 rpm, I guess mine goes past 5200 so fast it didn't notice its not suppose to breath well. I don't know where all these unfounded fables get started. A BBF will spin as much rpm and make power as well as any BBC. Check out what some of the truck pullers are doing with the BBF. Does 8600-8800 rpm qualify as high rpms? [and with iron cranks too]

[gnarley]

Originally posted by 058:
As for the 460 not being able to spin over 5200 rpm, I guess mine goes past 5200 so fast it didn't notice its not suppose to breath well.
What are the flow spec's on the stock heads from both?
058, that was based on a stock OEM, is yours stock? I bet its not. It's kind of like the Olds, stock they don't do well above 5000 but change them like the Fords and they too will breath right. I would have to say on Fords decission not to sell engines for marine use is a bad decission, if they are that good they are cheeting their investors of a market segment that could produce revenue for its shareholders.

[77charger]

I run a bbf 429 also.Dont bbcs require 4 bolt mains to spin to 6500 and need steel cranks or better rods.My bbf will spin 5500 on the botlle and the bottom end is STOCK.
Dont get me wrong on the bbcs i like them too and there are more parts to go around but the bbfs can be punched to 540 ci with stock factory 2 bolt blocks.
Any one of the two makers are capable of the same hp with the right parts.And for the off shore boats i know a guy who put two pontiacs in a heavy boat it went 85 even with the homemade exhaust so it goes to show with the right combo of parts anything is possible.And bbf 429s have an oversquare bore and stroke whoch is really good for high rpm capability.

[BlownCole]

Okay for all you ford fanatics who would be interested in a 572 ford with cj heads dominator carb and steel crank. I got this motor cheap and i need to move it. freshen it up and it will make a stout piece. it ran low 13s high 12s in a lwb ford pickup with stock suspension. the only drawback for the ford purist is that it has chevy rods in it

[lakesmodified]

"I got this motor cheap and i need to move it"
Depends on what you consider cheap? So how much?

[BlownCole]

$2000.00 and no it isn't hot in that way. the guy who had it went bust and needed groceries

[058]

Gnarley, I have used several heads on my 460s, from D0VE-Cs to D0OE-Rs to alum CJs. The "C" heads are stock OEM from 1968 thru 70 or early 71. On a 460 with a mild cam that engine would spin 6500 turning a 25% gear and a 11.5 X 15" prop in a very heavy [wood deck] Howard flat. The "C" heads are the equilevent to the BBC small valve- oval port head. [2.09" Intake-1.65" Exhaust] So be careful what you want to compare to. You Chevy guys think there is no other engine that compares to the Chevy, sorry to burst your bubble but we have an alternative that is just as good if not better and can be built just as cheap as any BBC. Where you guys have to spend your money on 4 bolt blocks and steel cranks we get by just fine with iron cranks and 2 bolt blocks. You want flow specs? Can't give 'em to ya, don't know. Who cares what the heads flow as long as they do the job you want them to do and mine do just fine, thank you. One more thing, I have a great respect for Chevys and fully understand the attraction to them, I just choose to do things a bit different and you should be glad some of us do. Wouldn't it be boring as hell if we all ran the same engine, boat, truck, ect?

[WATERROCKET]

OK , ITS MY TURN, I HAVE AN 1988 460 KING COBRA IT HAS THE COBRA JET INTAKE.I WAS TOLD THAT ITS RATED @340HP THE BOAT WEIGHTS 3900#LBS AND RUNS 56 TO 58 MPH. HOW DO I TELL WHICH HEADS I HAVE.AND HOW CAN I PUSH THIS BOAT JUST OVER 60 MPH. BIGGER CARB? OR HEADERS? REALLY DON'T WANT TO PULL THAT HEAVY SOB RIGHT NOW ITS REALLY RUNNING GOOD. THE DAMN THING ONLY HAS 290HOURS ON IT.

[058]

Check the casting number just below the valve cover rail. Should read something like this: D3VE-A2A

[WATERROCKET]

THANKS 058,

[058]

waterrocket, if you need any more help with your 460 Email me at svopwr@aol.com

[kevnmcd]

"FORD"....Fix Or Repair Daily...You mix that with a boat and all you get is unreliable fun. Go with Chevy. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[lghtnin33]

well,well, another ford versus chevy topic.This battle will never end! to answer your question WATERROCKET, yes the BBF 460's can "compete" with the BBC 502's, are they as powerful? probably not.BBC's have a 42 cid. advantage over the BBF's. i work with both products from time to time and they both have their good and bad qualities. i am a FORD man for my own reasons! it's all in the PARTS! chevys do have a parts availability advantage but thats about it, nothing else. when the chevy guys start in on fords its usually because they have a cid. advantage, like corvette,camero etc. VS. a mustang, well, chevy uses a 350 cid. motor VS. a 302 cid. motor, so i would hope they could out perform them even by a little. but in most cases the smaller ford block, the 48 cid. under dog holds it own!

[LOWRIVER2]

I run a stock 460 (84vintage) in a 19ft. Eliminator Liberty, I love the reliability of the motor, but for parts access...holy cow. I needed a flywheel in 96, none available in SO.CAL.!!! Had to wait two weeks for one from Michigan (this was through a dealer). A friend with a 460 lost his distributer cap last weekend in Parker. None of the 4 shops in Parker had one in stock. This lack of basic parts alone always drives me to recommend GM motors for boats. Performance is nice, but I'll take parts availability to keep my toys running over a little more horsepower any day.

[hack job]

Originally posted by LOWRIVER2:
I run a stock 460 (84vintage) in a 19ft. Eliminator Liberty, I love the reliability of the motor, but for parts access...holy cow. I needed a flywheel in 96, none available in SO.CAL.!!! Had to wait two weeks for one from Michigan (this was through a dealer). A friend with a 460 lost his distributer cap last weekend in Parker. None of the 4 shops in Parker had one in stock. This lack of basic parts alone always drives me to recommend GM motors for boats. Performance is nice, but I'll take parts availability to keep my toys running over a little more horsepower any day.
hey i have a question about the distbutor cap if it was a boat then most likly it was a pestolite distbutor and then most places wouldnt have you are right it would be the same as if you needed a mallory for a chevy, now if it was a ford distbutor then it would be the same as a 351 and that is very strange that they wouldnt have one seeing how there are a alot of out drive boats that use that motor plus the fact that a crap load of cars had that motor. any how i live in socal nd i have never had that kind of trouble finding parts for my 460 , this is just my opion and i didnt want it coming off like ford parts are extremly hard to find. iam not picking on you lowriver2. just showing my experiances and knoledge what ever that might be. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif
Tyson www.plumbersassracing.com (http://www.plumbersassracing.com)

[LOWRIVER2]

no harm here,
Pestolite yes, glad you have'nt had problems with parts. I also had to wait 6 days for a flywheel back in 94 for my old 84 Ranger (2.8L capri motor). That part also had to come from Michigan. I do know a lot of folks run the old fords but I have found many guys having to wait for various parts from ford and the same GM parts were on the shelf. The statement that Ford never was into building motors for anything other than cars has been displayed to me a few times now. I really think it's silly that a part so common as a flywheel is not in stock in So. Cal. when so many big block ford trucks/boats and motorhomes are running around. I love my ford for it's reliability but I will definitely build a Chevy next time around for this reason, and others. There are a lot of tricks to make a Ford run (and many are cheaper to do than with GM stuff) but the mass quanity of parts (and my friend's knowledge curves)with GM stuff will send me to the bowtie.

[gnarley]

Originally posted by 058:
You Chevy guys think there is no other engine that compares to the Chevy, Wouldn't it be boring as hell if we all ran the same engine, boat, truck, ect?
Hey 058, I don't think that Chevy is the only engine or the best nor do I of Fords, I just seemed to always have better luck with Chevy's. I owned a SW tour Thunderbird in the mid 80's so we could be different as everyone else ran Chevy's. It was a challenge but we did OK but it was more expensive to buy parts for it back then than it is today buy the sound of things. It isn’t true that you need 4 bolt mains to spin 6500, but it doesn’t hurt! I'm sure that there are as many tricks to Fords as Chevy’s but I still feel that more aftermarket manufactures make more parts for Bowtie than the Blue Oval and you can find more Bowtie parts on more shelves in more places. Don't get me wrong I have plenty of respect for Fords but the bottom line is Chevy is the choice of most all-major boat builders for a reason.

[058]

Gnarley, I have never let cost get in the way of what I want. Sure, some things cost more for a Ford but thats the price I pay for something I believe in, same as you Chevy guys and I would never deny you that so please don't deny me my pleasure. As I said before "Wouldn't it be boring as hell if we all ran the same thing?" Look at it this way: until the BBF came along all you Chevy guys had to race is another Chevy, what competition is that? So you beat another cookie-cutter engine...BFD! Yes, the BBC has been around alot longer and there has been alot more "how to" articles in magazines about Chevys, is this something to be proud of? With all the info about Chevys out there and with pictures too [for those of you who can't read] Anybody who can't build a powerful Chevy has to be a complete moron. When the 429-460 first came out everyone said it looks like another BBC so we'll build it like one, well that didn't work and it didn't make the power it should have but when people approched it as a different engine and built it accordingly it responded accordingly. As to your comment about Ford not building marine engines and the profit to the stockholders, thats just the point; Ford didn't see enough profit in marine products to justify the effort, just as they saw fit to dump their class 6, 7 and 8 trucks and sold the line to Sterling, not enough profit to justify the trouble, GM has done the same thing in the past few years, Delphi ring a bell? So did Ford when they sold Vistion.[one of the most profitible division of Ford] The bottom line here is profit, for Ford and GM...they both serve the same master, the stockholders.

[gnarley]

058, what I was trying to tell Waterrocket in my opinion was what you said Originally posted by 058:
there has been a lot more "how to" articles in magazines about Chevy’s, With all the info about Chevy’s out there and with pictures too [for those of you who can't read] Anybody who can't build a powerful Chevy has to be a complete moron.
HE asked “CAN THE 460'S COMPETE WITH THE 502'S. I NEED SOME OPINIONS”. I gave him one, then he asked “Chevy cheaper to build? or just make more hp?” Which I think you backed up in the above quote. Don't forget before the BBF was a challenger to the BBC, in the big block wars of the 60's the HEMI and Wedges were around and usually smoked most BBC's! And not to mention the rare Ford 427 DOHC's. During those times the BBC was almost always getting spanked unless you had real cubic dollars in one like a Reynolds Z-L1. So yeah if you want to work at it you can build a Ford, I did & got tired of the work necessary to field a competitive Ford when I was in racing. In my private life I have more projects to do than I want these days and want the easiest, simplest & what I feel is the most reliable and easy to find parts for boat so I don't need to work as hard doing it and spend less doing if possible. As you said "I have never let cost get in the way of what I want. Sure, some things cost more for a Ford" I want to save where I can so I can buy that vacation home in the Delta soon enough. If you choose to spend more, more power to ya.
By the way I have a 1979 Sleekcraft 21' daycruiser that needed repair as well as an engine & drive. Since a friend gave me all the marine hardware for a SBF I went with a Ford and found a 1970 4BBL 351w to put in. I never did a thing to the motor and ran fine for 5 years with very little invested. So I still have a Ford also, know anyone who might be looking?

[058]

Gnarley, Sorry, it just that I get a bit testy whenever someone says "BBC is the ONLY engine to use" Not saying that was something you said but it has been said none the less. Also I enjoy a good Chevy/Ford debate as long its done intelligently and not throwing around a bunch of unfound claims and name calling. No need for that here. I respect your opinion because you handled it like a gentleman. If I ever have the pleasure of meeting you the first Bud is on me. BTW, how much are you asking for the Sleek?

[gnarley]

Well I'd Email you with info on it but your's isn't listed. I replaced the stringers and bulkhead connectors added an additional 3/4 marine ply to the transom for the volvo 270 I/O and filled all cavaties under the floor from the dash back with 50/50 foam for extra rigidity & floatation if a problem ever were to occure. It feels tight & is a fast hull! I had redone the gelcoat but the glass shop sold me the wrong clear and it ruined the finish so it needs a complete repaint again. I hate to sell it but I need to let it go.
I forgot to say Hey I'll take ya up on the beer since your in the Bay Area maybe we'll meet up some time. Where are you at anyway? And with your handle 058 are you a racer?
[This message has been edited by gnarley (edited May 31, 2002).]

[63stevens]

I always like to hear people debate what is better. I think the marketing philosophy of Chevy makes them the choice of boat builders. If Ford had the same philosophy I'm sure alot of builders would go in that direction. If I was building a boat for racing I would build a chevy. There has been more R and D done with chevy's, thats what makes them most racers choice. If Ford had put that much time and effort into their 460's do you think people would run them?

[058]

Gnarley, I am in Hayward. I stopped posting my email because of spam, its amazing how they can spam you off of a couple of wesites that you hit. Must be those damn cookies. As for my handle "058" thats the number thats on my Hondo, it was there when I bought it along time ago. No, I don't race boats but I did race cars in the 70s and 80s, mostly street machines but did some TAFC racing for a couple of years. I see you are from Santa Rosa, where do you boat? I usually go to Berryessa [Putah Creek] but have been known to turn up at Tulloch every now and then. Wouldn't mind a trip or two to the Delta if I can stay away from those offshore boats that haunt the area. Email: svopwr@aol.com

[058]

63Stevens, Ford's marketing sucks, GM has it all over Ford in that respect, a good product doesn't hurt either. Ford had the ***boat engine market locked up in the early to mid 60s but they pissed it away. The 427 was as reliable as an anvil and they produced them for "crate" sales even though they were not cheap compaired to the Mopar or the Chevy. I remember Vic Hubbards had engines stacked up like cord wood in the wharehouse. They were a big player in the ***boat market back then. They sold all the hardware, v drives, engines, trailers and hulls. You could buy everything needed to complete a boat and put it on a trailer with one stop at the parts counter...damn, those were the days!

[lakesmodified]

Bottom line, Ford truck sales are so overwhelming, they don't need to resort to selling engines on the side in order to make ends meet!!!!! Chevy's trucks have been so damn lousy for so many years, that they had to get into the part business in order to keep the Chevy mark alive!!!!!!! Hell, Chevy can't even keep a rear wheel drive car in their line up.. All they sell is front wheel drive crap!!! Oh, almost forgot... The over priced Corvette that even in Z06 form can't beat the New for 2003 Ford SVT Cobra in a quarter mile! And at a $20K price difference! Chevy couldn't even get their shit together when it came to their "Sport truck" SS454... Ford has the SVT Lightning at 390HP for $31K what does Chevy offer?? Crate engines!!!! For Christs Sakes.. They can't figure how to build a high horsepower vehicle and still make it emmissions legal, that's why they build so many CHEAP crate engines...

[058]

Uh oh...I think I'll keep my head down and sneak out the back door after that last post...gentlemen, don't start shooting until 058 has left the building.

[rrrr]

When I decided to buy an old v-drive, I wanted to get something a little different. Found an old Howard with a 427 Ford, I love the way it looks. I'm not trying to be the fastest boat on the lake, but I will probably be the only one with a Holman Moody original.
There's no doubt in my mind that the BBC is the easiest and cheapest engine to hop up. I have a 454 Merc in my big bow rider, just bolting stuff on has made it much more responsive and a few MPH faster. There are tons of parts for sale by people that are upgrading, and you can buy 'em pretty cheap.
[This message has been edited by rrrr (edited May 31, 2002).]

[058]

A piece of history indeed, The H/M 427 is rare and a valuable piece. The FE is still a competitive engine even though its been out of production for over 25 years. There are now 3 companys that produce FE blocks in both aluminum and iron. Shelby [alum. only] Dove Enger. and Genesis. The future is still bright for the 'ol FE. They have a small but very loyal following, myself included.

[DEL51]

Back in the early 80's,I had the opportunity to work at Road America for the noth woods regional Shelby invitional.I got to see many neat old Ford race cars and street machines.I am partial to the boss 429 and 427 cammer engines.I am running a 572 chev blower motor and love to see other brands compete. It would be so boring to have only one engine type.That said,Money was a factor for my build up.I may build a chryser hemi or a big cube shotgun motor just for the fact that they are so different and Cool.I built the 572 for the horsepower to dollar ratio.I hope the world doesn't go to shit with all the terrorism,etc,so we can achieve our goals.

[63stevens]

058, I remember those days when the 427 Ford's were the thing. A crate 427 would push most any flatbottom in the 75-80 range. wonder why they quite making the ole FE engine anyway.

[Jungle Boy]

This debate can and will go on for ever. 80% (in my estimation)of the whitewater river race boats are running chev motors, but the 4 time world champion, Spencer King is running a 1000 hp, 540ci ford motor and it has been the most reliable motor in these torture tests for years. It is one big ass motor with nothing fancy, just brute torque. What does every one think of Dart's new Iron Eagle small block ford. I here it can stroked to a 440 ci. Nice boat motor in a light boat, I'd say. BTW, I run chevs!
JB

[058]

I'm not here to stir any pots [or posts] but as I said before there are alternatives to the Chevy, be it big block or small blocks. I see the Chevy as the "bar" of which all others compare to. With that being said there are a few engines that could compete with or excede that of the Chevy. The 351 Ford for one and the 460 is another. To answer 63Stevens' question "Why did they stop building the 427?" its because the 429-460 was suppose to replace it, and when Ford quit racing in 1970 that was the kiss of death to ANY hi-perf. engine that was in production or development. The FE in various stages of development was totally competitive thru 1970. [Mickey Thompson/Danny Ongias Mustang-427 Cammer] with a win/loss record unmatched to this day. Mickey Thompson did some work with the 429 engine but FoMoCo pulled the plug early on into the project. M/T had the compressed air Boss 429 [that made an unheard of at the time 3000 hp] Chassis and tire development did not allow the car to hook up and control all the H.P. that this engine developed at that time. Cammers at the drags didn't work out because of the down time if the heads had to come off, afterall it had over 6' of timing chain that needed to be timed upon reassembly. The 351 in NASCAR even with the limitations set by NASCAR is still has a 30-40 hp advantage over the 350 Chevy with their latest SP2 heads. Robert Yates did a wonderful job with the canted valve 351 head that made Chevy go back to the drawingboards to come up with something that would compete with it. [The SP2 head looks alot like the Yates/Ford head] To Jungleboy, I am happy to hear about the Ford that you described in your post but it doesn't surprise me, I have always thought the Ford can be more reliable than the Chevy and still be able to beat them once in awhile. Just proves when someone decides to do a different engine than the competition runs [however risky] that they can reap the rewards of taking a chance. If it makes any difference, I enjoy any article written on alternitive engines such as Pontiac, Olds, Dodge, Buick and even AMC because anybody that puts their mind to it can make any engine work for them. Just for the record, a friend of mine ran a SBC in TAD [FMD] and kicked ass until he was "factored" out by NHRA due to polictical pressure from his competition. They were afraid of their Hemis getting beat by a 377" small block Chevy. I guess I just like seeing the "underdog" win one once in awhile.