first run

[460 WJ]

Today was the first day out on the fresh ford 460 rebuild. Engine was setup to be between 600 and 650 HP. Well she ran ok considering the timing was way off it was advanced 20 deg. How much HP do you think I lost with the problem? The boats best gps was 55 mph at 4900 RPM'S with a Jaccuzi WJ with 'B' impeller.. What kind of RPM should I be able to get out of a "B" impeller with that kind of power? Thanks

[ColeFord]

Today was the first day out on the fresh ford 460 rebuild. Engine was setup to be between 600 and 650 HP. Well she ran ok considering the time was way off it was advanced 20 deg. How much HP do you think I lost with the problem? The boats best gps was 55 mph at 4900 RPM'S with a Jaccuzi WJ with 'B' impeller.. What kind of RPM should I be able to get out of a "B" impeller with that kind of power? Thanks
HP loss ? probably quite a bit, all my 460's in jet boats liked 32 to 34 total advance any more than that the max rpm would start dropping

[460 WJ]

I'm running a MSD system with out the MSD Distributer.. Mistake!! I set it static at 8 deg. Put the light on it at the lake today it was like a inch from the line. I figured atleast 50 deg. . That would explain why it ran so slow with all that power and only 4900rpm's... Thanks for the reply..

[Squirtcha?]

I'm running a MSD system with out the MSD Distributer.. Mistake!! I set it static at 8 deg. Put the light on it at the lake today it was like a inch from the line. I figured atleast 50 deg. . That would explain why it ran so slow with all that power and only 4900rpm's... Thanks for the reply..
Someone with more knowledge than myself can jump on this one, but.............That would be an awful lot of mechanical advance for a distributor. 50 degrees total minus the 8 degrees static is 42 degrees mechanical from the the distributor. My Mallory only has like 22 degrees of mechanical. Don't know the specs on MSD stuff, but it doesn't seem like it would/could be 42?

[steelcomp]

Someone with more knowledge than myself can jump on this one, but.............That would be an awful lot of mechanical advance for a distributor. 50 degrees total minus the 8 degrees static is 42 degrees mechanical from the the distributor. My Mallory only has like 22 degrees of mechanical. Don't know the specs on MSD stuff, but it doesn't seem like it would/could be 42?
Not likely. "An inch from the line"?? What line are you talking about? On a stock 460 dampener, an inch from TDC isn't any where near 50 deg. Hell, 45 deg. would be 1/8 of a turn of the crank! I think you need to go back and be a little more precise about what you're doing.

[Bailey]

What kind of work did you do to your 460. I'm in the process of a rebuild now. Just looking for some ideas.

[Squirtcha?]

Not likely. "An inch from the line"?? What line are you talking about? On a stock 460 dampener, an inch from TDC isn't any where near 50 deg. Hell, 45 deg. would be 1/8 of a turn of the crank! I think you need to go back and be a little more precise about what you're doing.
I think the stock 460 balance is only marked to 30 degrees. If he's talking an inch out from the last marking on the balance @ 3000 rpm??????????? 40 some degrees total would be a guess. Agreed that some reading, or a poignant question or two might be in order?
Depending on your build/compression/fuel, you could seriously hurt something with all that timing.

[malcolm]

4900 on a WJ with a B impeller is only around 325 hp. I know, that's all I can muster with mine. :frown:

[LVjetboy]

"How much HP do you think I lost with the problem...4900 RPM'S with a Jaccuzi WJ with 'B' impeller"
WJ pump curves show 350 hp at 4900...
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/WJ4900.jpg
I'll guess timing off by 15 degrees worth at least 50 hp, if not a bit more. No way you'll gain 300 hp. I'm sure there's guys here with engine tuning experience who can give you a better idea.
"What kind of RPM should I be able to get out of a "B" impeller with that (600-650) kind of power?"
Pumping a true 650 hp to the WJ impeller will spin it over 6000 rpm. If your drag point is accurate and IF you had that kinda power you'd likely run close to 80 mph.
jer

[460 WJ]

I'm picking up a msd distibuter for it soon. Yes it looked to be off at least a inch on the stock dampner.
Mods are holly 800 spreadbore, edelbrock performer rpm intake, dove C heads port and polish with port match, Roller rockers, The biggest valves I could get they are like 210 and 170 somthing with out pulling paper work out, 110 center line cam 3000 -6500 RPM ,alum pistons, machinced rods, and 30 over block, stock crank... Thats about it what do you guys think on the the HP?

[Squirtcha?]

Need more info. Compression ratio, lift and duration of cam (critical), exhaust type, any port work done to the heads, etc. etc. Your valve sizes should be 2.245 intake and 1.745 exhaust. I'm pretty sure that those are the largest that can fit in the stock iron heads.
I'm no expert, but I can run it on desktop dyno for you. I think you might fall a little short of 600 hp though. The more complete/accurate the information input to the program..............the more accurate the results.

[malcolm]

Yeah, those build specs are a little cloudy. I'm guessing you'll be able to tune her up past 400 hp, but you're going to have to spend a lot more money to get to 600.
What exhaust are you running? I picked up my last 300 rpm going to headers.

[LakesOnly]

....all my 460's in jet boats liked 32 to 34 total advance any more than that the max rpm would start dropping
The amount if ignition advance is different for different engines. In my jet boat, for example, if I reduce my timing to 36 BTDC @ 3000, it becomes a complete dog. Bring it back to 40-41 and she flies. I do not recommend these settings to others.
We need to know more about the components that make up this engine, but generaly speaking, starting at 32BTDC@3000 is safe for most lake boats...fine tuning can usually move forward from there.
Tell us more about the details of your build: bore, stroke, block, heads, pistons, induction, etc. Then we can get you in the ballpark.
LO

[LakesOnly]

Mods are holly 800 spreadbore, edelbrock performer rpm intake, dove C heads port and polish with port match, Roller rockers, The biggest valves I could get they are like 210 and 170 somthing with out pulling paper work out, 110 center line cam 3000 -6500 RPM ,alum pistons, machinced rods, and 30 over block, stock crank... Thats about it what do you guys think on the the HP?
Start at 32* BTDC @ 3000 rpm. you can move upwards from there a couple of degrees at a time (34, then 36, etc.) and see how the engine behaves/reacts with the timing changes. During this testing, it will be necessary to monitor your air/fuel mixtire by way of plg readings...and adjust accordingly. If you advance ignition timing to a point where it does not help power any, then stop there and maybe back it off a degree or two for safety...especially while you're still breaking it in. You can fine tune some more later once the motor is run in.
With that combo, I suspect you will find your final ignition timing to be set somewhiere in the neghboorhood of 34*-36* degrees BTDC @ 3000 afterall.
LO

[LakesOnly]

Your valve sizes should be 2.245 intake and 1.745 exhaust. I'm pretty sure that those are the largest that can fit in the stock iron heads.
I think you might fall a little short of 600 hp though.
Hopefully the guy has 2.19" In/1.76" exhaust. The 2.25" CJ size valve shrouds the smaller D0VE head's ports and hurts low to mid lift flow numbers. The PI valve size (2.19") is the better combo almost every time.
I agree that you are well under 600HP, unless the person who built it with those componenets reeeeeally knows what they're doing with the 429/460's.
LO

[Squirtcha?]

Hopefully the guy has 2.19" In/1.76" exhaust. The 2.25" CJ size valve shrouds the smaller D0VE head's ports and hurts low to mid lift flow numbers. The PI valve size (2.19") is the better combo almost every time.
I agree that you are well under 600HP, unless the person who built it with those componenets reeeeeally knows what they're doing with the 429/460's.
LO
LakesOnly knows these BBFs and can give you some solid advice. Give us the real poop on what went into it and we can kick some numbers back to ya.
Just by the information you've given, and guessing at cam lift/duration, compression and exhaust type............. I show you should be around 474 hp at 5000 rpm.
I guessed your compression at 10:1 since you have the small chambered Dove C heads and assumed you went with flattop pistons. Guessed cam at 650 lift just because it was a roller, and didn't figure you'd go any smaller than that. Also guessed that your duration was 278 in and 278 ex.
I also ran the numbers using ported heads. If you didn't have any port work done, you might want to consider it. You drop around 77 hp with stock non-ported heads even with the larger valves (397 hp peaking at 4500 rpm).
Hmmmn those last hp numbers (397 @ 4500) are awfully close to what LVjetboy shows on the JPC in the above post.........
http://members.cox.net/lvjetboy/WJ4900.jpg

[460 WJ]

Where do I find desktop dyno or the jet performance program? They look like they would help alot..

[460 WJ]

That would be great if you would run that desktop dyno for me. It would be much easyer for me to tell you all the mods. There is a shit load.. Right now there is over $4500.00 in it. Not including what I started with. Over 2500.00 in the heads alone.. I emailed you my number give me a call when you get a chance. I'm in the eastern time zone..

[Squirtcha?]

That would be great if you would run that desktop dyno for me. It would be much easyer for me to tell you all the mods. There is a shit load.. Right now there is over $4500.00 in it. Not including what I started with. Over 2500.00 in the heads alone.. I emailed you my number give me a call when you get a chance. I'm in the eastern time zone..
I probably deleted it. I just checked my email and didn't see it. I get so much crap email I sometimes delete things accidently.
If you wanna save me the long distance call, just compile all your information and email it to me. The more detailed, the better and truer the end result will be. List everything you, or your builder can think of.
I'd be happy to run it for you. In fact I've saved the stuff from earlier today and can just amend it as needed.
Shoot me your email address too and I'll send you a copy of the JPC.