Something new and maybe needed

[pops1]

Aggressor has had its JR Drive- 7" Mixed flow Drive out in test for sometime.
The Drive has performed well in all case's
The big problem was Motors. We tested with a Mazda Rotary in a 17'10" Alum 62 MPH 2 people in the boat. Motor was 174 HP and we ran up to 5K Rs. Rotary motors never hit as price was a problem and or acceptance.
In New Zealand the Suburu motor's were ran and the pump was strong, yet the motors acceptance or availability was not there.
G.M. is releasing a new 330 lb 4 cylinder motor @ 170 HP or Blown @ 205 HP with 200 fp of Torque @ 4000 Rs. We are waiting to get one of these motors to test in a 17' proto hull which we have as the first test basis.
The weight ratio is something in line with the weight ratio we seen with the Rotary. Price on the motor LOOKS GOOD also.
We also will be testing the package in our 16" Tunnel and maybe with the JR Dual we have. Our thoughts are to find a boat manufacture, or other, to tie this together in an affordable, family Ski program. We have always envisioned a no frills type program being the basis, maybe using the Classic Hull look, or.
Your thoughts:

[HBjet]

Interesting and thanks for sharing this info...
My Question/Thought: How big is the market for such a drive and motor combo?
HBjet

[Squirtcha?]

Interesting and thanks for sharing this info...
My Question/Thought: How big is the market for such a drive and motor combo?
HBjet
If the fuel prices keep going up, we might all be driving one of those four cylinders Randy!

[HBjet]

If the fuel prices keep going up, we might all be driving one of those four cylinders Randy!
Not in my lifetime! :D

[SB]

Thanks for the update pops, and thanks for asking.
I see this as a matter of price, power, and weight.
Price: The cheapest big block is probably a Lightning at $30-$40k. You want to be under that, and have a price comparable to the Sea Doo and Yamaha jet boats, maybe $20-$25k. Then I would have to say, "Why don't I just go get a new jet boat on payments, rather than wrestle with rebuilding an old one."
Power: You need to be able to get up a 200 lb. slalom skier. This where the other cheap boats with base power fall short. The 17' Bayliner with a 3.0 Alpha is a nice cheap boat, but underpowered for skiing.
Weight: You need to able to tow with a minivan, which means under 3500 lbs for the total rig, single axle trailer.
How?
Either get Merc or Yamaha to build you a 300 hp powerhead for your jet or get Chevy to give you a 4.3 v6 - 5.7 V8. (Subaru? WTF?)
I suspect you know all this. So why are you asking?
Gas? I have a 77 Biesmeyer, Berk JC with Agressor A, BBF stock, max 4500 rpm. I can get up skiers with 6 people in the boat, and ski all day on under 20 gallons. Pretty good.
The problem people run into is they have a 17' boat with 90 hp and and want more so they move up to the 20' with a 150hp. Now they need more money, more tow vehicle, bigger garage, etc.
I've never bought a new boat. I rebuilt an old one. So I don't know if I am a good target customer. Not to say the Sea Doos are disposable but, I have a hard time imagining that 25 years hence, someone will repower an rebuild an old hulk of a Sea Doo. Anyway, I have this quirky old boat that no one else can drive. I'm going to need a boat that my kids can take out by themselves. I'd like a small wake for skiing. If I knew that you, pops, were going to build me a new boat for the right price, I might buy. And make it quiet.

[old rigger]

Hey pops,
that's pretty cool info. I really like hearing about different set ups like that and I'd like to see that rotary engine set up. I think there's a market for this kinda boat big time, especially with the right hull.
Very cool.
A beezer 21 jet that can run all day, pulling skiers, on 20 gallons of gas? I'd like to see that too. :wink:

[HBjet]

Just so everyone knows, I'm not trying to start anything... just wondering how big this market really is? For one, being so small/light and low on power, I can't see this boat being any fun on places like Havasu or Parker. Lower river maybe, but that is not a large enough market to target when you have SeaDoo and Yamaha already in that area with much deeper pockets to have a new model with newer features/power every 2 years for the customer. Same with with the lakes around here, that small of a boat you just get a beating... I don't know about lakes or rivers east of here so there could be a large demand that I don't know about.
Like any company should, I'm sure Aggressor did there market research before moving into R&D and Production for this particular setup. I just don't know how large of a market it is... and that's what I am wondering.
Anyone else that may know, please feel free to add your 2 cents!
Thanks
HBjet

[old rigger]

hbjet,
I think the market is out there for a boat like this. You do realize that the boat market that we know and love out here in so cal equals about 1 percent (if that) of the total boat market nation wide. Bayliner alone builds over 50,000 boats a year. The total combined output of all the west coast 'custom' builders doesn't come anywhere near that. If this boat pops is doing is in direct competion with a deep pocket builder like see-doo, then that's fantasitc. If he can take just 5 % of their buyers and offer then a custom made cali style of boat, that's very good. Thre's always room for competition. Not everyone wants or needs an 80 mph jet, even though most claim to own one.
And I didn't think you were trying to start anything, and thought you made some great points. :cool:

[1Bahnerjet]

this whole thing has happened before (gas Crunch late 70's) they tried to market a Datsun Powered 16' (14' ?) jet Boat, does anyone remember or see them anymore ? think it was called Sundance.

[Hot Rod Hallett]

Id rather launch my boat, idle it to the beach in Needles Lagoon and hang out all f**in' day and look at something cool.

[Aluminum Squirt]

Hey Pops1, I respect and support any and all R&D, but it sort of sounds like what you are looking for has been built by Eagle already in the Sport Jet, only difference is it will usually go over 65 and you can play around in your local class III-V rapids and jump beaver dams-Aluminum Squirt
www.eagleracing.ca/RModels/Sport.shtml

[old rigger]

this whole thing has happened before (gas Crunch late 70's) they tried to market a Datsun Powered 16' (14' ?) jet Boat, does anyone remember or see them anymore ? think it was called Sundance.
I remember them, there was a Datun dealer on South street in Lakewood that sold them. They were in the mid 70's though, not built in reaction to the gas crunch that burried more than a few boat builders in 79-80.
But you're right, they never took off. And, I might add, they were pretty ugly too boot.

[old rigger]

aluminum squirt
on eagles web site thay claim that their X16 is the worlds fastest sport jet powered boat, but don't post any speeds for the stock boat? What's up with that. What speeds are the stock boats ruinning? I see where the race boats haul ass and those are some very cool pictures of them running and flying the course.

[spectras only]

Me and my friend having a little wooden lunch boat built ,ready in 2 weeks. I have a vintage flat 2 cyl Coventry Victor marine engine to put in .Should get us through the gas crunch this summer :D .Straight shaft, no clutch or tranny, should be pretty reliable ;) .Wonder if it would use more than 1/2 gal per hour putt putting around the lake :idea: :mix: .I'll post some pics later.

[old rigger]

Me and my friend having a little wooden lunch boat built ,ready in 2 weeks. I have a vintage flat 2 cyl Coventry Victor marine engine to put in .Should get us through the gas crunch this summer :D .Straight shaft, no clutch or tranny, should be pretty reliable ;) .Wonder if it would use more than 1/2 gal per hour putt putting around the lake :idea: :mix: .I'll post some pics later.
lol.
you can race my son. He's building his first boat right now. Should be done in another month. bottoms almost done and then he'll and flip it over and finish the deck. Got him a 1951 Martin 7 horse for it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/flyin-t/march312005025.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/flyin-t/db3c6234.jpg

[likwidsukr]

Gas? I have a 77 Biesmeyer, Berk JC with Agressor A, BBF stock, max 4500 rpm. I can get up skiers with 6 people in the boat, and ski all day on under 20 gallons. Pretty good.
.
No way man .I had a 350 olds that with a 600 holley would drink the fuel, twice that much in a day. Just joy riding. You are pulling a skier and carrying 6 people. And do that all day on 20 gallons. Send me your build sheet. We will make a fortune :D LMFAO

[Bense468]

No way man .I had a 350 olds that with a 600 holley would drink the fuel, twice that much in a day. Just joy riding. You are pulling a skier and carrying 6 people. And do that all day on 20 gallons. Send me your build sheet. We will make a fortune :D LMFAO
An agressor A is like an AA. It is very possible he is doing as posted. My aa in my boat used to run hard, and was pretty fuel efficent compared to others. If you don't always have your foot to the floor they are not that bad. When you constantly have the secondaries open is when they get thirsty.

[likwidsukr]

No way man .I had a 350 olds that with a 600 holley would drink the fuel, twice that much in a day. Just joy riding. You are pulling a skier and carrying 6 people. And do that all day on 20 gallons. Send me your build sheet. We will make a fortune :D LMFAO
Man I am sounding like an as(s) sorry. :D

[likwidsukr]

An agressor A is like an AA. It is very possible he is doing as posted. My aa in my boat used to run hard, and was pretty fuel efficent compared to others. If you don't always have your foot to the floor they are not that bad. When you constantly have the secondaries open is when they get thirsty.
Yeah that is why I posted my remarks after the fact. Again Im an azz> LOL
Nah did not mean disrespect But I did kinda sound like steelcomp LOL
Sorry Scott :D :D

[likwidsukr]

lol.
you can race my son. He's building his first boat right now. Should be done in another month. bottoms almost done and then he'll and flip it over and finish the deck. Got him a 1951 Martin 7 horse for it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/flyin-t/march312005025.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/flyin-t/db3c6234.jpg
Rich I have been watching the progress on the boat. I am stocked to see the end results!!

[old rigger]

likwid,
here's a few more shots for ya. He's having a good time building it, so am I helping. He has to take it to school tomorrow for his grade, but it's not 100% done. He still has to block it out and paint the hull, not to mention a million other things. He had no idea how much work it was going to be, but it's been good for him I think.
Here's how it looked today.............
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/flyin-t/IMG_0278.jpg
over the weekend.............
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/flyin-t/IMG_0273.jpg
we had to take it off the building frame to plane the sheerline so we took a
few pictures of the inside before we filpped it again...........
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/flyin-t/IMG_0259.jpg

[canuck1]

Pops
Call the boys at Eagle/Outlaw about this. Years ago they had a 15' sprint with the rotary in it that worked pretty good.
As to all the unbelievers my intro to alum hulls was by getting my ass handed to me by a s/c rotary in a sprint hull
Old Rigger
My buddies Sport Jet runs around 67 at 2200' elevation with two people and all the shite for a day of playin(skiis,coolers,chairs etc)

[Ken F]

Old Rigger, what kind of car is sitting in your driveway? MG Magnet? Morris Minor?
Ken F

[victorfb]

old rigger (rich)
wasnt that kid like 9 last year? damn do they grow up fast.
thats an awsome project he took on and it looks fantastic. you must be very very proud. and please keep us posted on its and his progress. btw. when you want that 4 banger? ...lol

[old rigger]

Old Rigger, what kind of car is sitting in your driveway? MG Magnet? Morris Minor?
Ken F
Hey Ken, you were close, lol. It's a 1941 Buick. Straight eight engine, factory dual carbs and exhaust. My friend owned it for 10 years and I always asked him to give me first chance to buy it if he ever sold it. He did and I had to sell my T and all my flathead speed stuff to get it. The car is all original, been painted once, and has less than 10,000 original miles on it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/flyin-t/41-1.jpg
Victor, yeah we need to hook up.
Boy, this thread too a wrong turn somewhere, I think it was spectras only fault!

[Aluminum Squirt]

Old rigger, no first hand GPS experience, but from what I hear, Canuck1 is right on. Mid 60's is pretty standard, a little faster with a little tweaking. All depends on elevation and how many beaver dams you've tried to jump. They are very reliable and very tough-Aluminum Squirt

[old rigger]

mid 60s is very respectable with that power.
I can see how you and canuck1 would have a good time with those hulls. The pictures on theat web site are great!

[hack job]

Rich the boat is coming along nicely it should be fun when he takes it down to the harbor for the first launch :wink:

[spectras only]

Boy, this thread too a wrong turn somewhere, I think it was spectras only fault!
Yeah , my fault :p . BTW ,bring your boy with his toy up to our lake and we'll race him . If he beats us ,I'll convert the boat to POPS1 new deal :) .

[pops1]

Pops
Call the boys at Eagle/Outlaw about this. Years ago they had a 15' sprint with the rotary in it that worked pretty good.
As to all the unbelievers my intro to alum hulls was by getting my ass handed to me by a s/c rotary in a sprint hull
Old Rigger
My buddies Sport Jet runs around 67 at 2200' elevation with two people and all the shite for a day of playin(skiis,coolers,chairs etc)
We built this unit I think on there Hull for Rotary International (Rotary had several built and AT pumps put in. Skip provided us with the Rotary. We quit running the unit @ 5000 Rs as the boat hit 62 with every time we hit the Radar Gun. (Bob @ 210 & My self @ 175lbs) The unit was a deep V and was very Impressive and a kick to drive. We Ran it out by the Queen Mary and found out after it was a 35MPH zone. Went outside the breakwater and ran it from Alamitos Channel East Long Beach to San Pedro and back. Very fun Very Impressive. Unit on plane time was quick. The Rotay People wanted to run it @ 6200 which would require a cut to the Impeller and we said what for. The unit works strong, Now I wish I had done that.

[SB]

There is no offense taken. I was trying to add to the pool of knowledge and raise a couple questions. I have a stock .30 over BBF, 750 carb, and with no cam overlap I use very little gas. I cruise at a very efficient rpm, absorbing perhaps 100 hp?, when skiing and tubing. At top speed sure I can burn over 30 gallons an hour like anyone else.
One point I was trying to make is that smaller is not always better. I'm not using much more gas than the little boats. Yet the power is there if I need it. Most people only run their boats 40 hrs/yr., so the difference in gas usage is minimal. So, why talk about it?
My question is the same as HBjet, what is the market, where is it?
If the existing boats are underpowered, why not put on more engine? Why bother developing a 2 stroke with expensive emission controls, or an expensive small modern dual overhead cam engine. Use a bigger engine and a bigger jet.
For skiing you need, more acceleration, less speed. Tournament ski boats only go 45 mph and they sell plenty. (Please don't throw me off this board.)
Is there a cost effective way to do this? I don't know. The best selling boat in the world is a bayliner 18 and it only sells 2,000 units a year.
I would like to see someone succeed. Boston Whaler had a jet with a 90hp engine that had to be run at WOT just to stay on plane. That boat set back the entire jet boat industry. Whaler did have an 18' with a small block Ford, which they discontinued. Pops, you should drive one of those and see what is needed. And whatever boat you build, you should leave a little room for guys like us to tweak it.

[pops1]

A little more history on both the motor and the JR Drive.
If you look @ the Torque # you will see what was not available in the early Tahiti units first sold and even HP is an up from those days.
Now a 9" Impeller drive will require a sizable cut as it did then to make them work.
Our Jr Drive will be available in a 7" 7 1/2 and a 8" Impeller. Design is as aggressive as our current design. We have several different Bowls with varying flow rates. We even have 3,4 & 5 vane cupped impellers tooled for it.
So to tune the pump to the motor should be sound. As to what I see for the complete package is a 17' classic type ski boat seats 5. The thrust on a 3.0 v6 ford put out 989 pounds of pull on a Hyd measured pull line. This test was not performed by us Sea Rays Test engineer did it when we demo the unit in a dual-purpose car @ Detroit. The pump out pulled (as a Mixed flow) a Hamilton pump with a larger motor and blew everyone away. Axial should out pull a mixed as exit port is 2X the mixed. Our dealer in new Zealand found the same in a test done by jet boat mag over there.
I have a hunger to get me a Gull Wing and make a Deck Boat out of it- just for fun. That hull is awesome on low power and would make a great deck boat with its high lift ratio. Who knows that’s why I started this line.
We are just now completing the tooling and the changes we are making will provide cover in case it finds the race. In something like the 16' Tunnel.
I do have a feeling the garage junkie's will be getting a hold of it with the Tec 4 bangers who knows. I’m sure with the GM label it will find the Builders to twist it higher.
As for the young family man. A $20,000.00 small car tow able should give them the same chance to take in the river and rays with his kids as his dad did.
Tahiti's were simple no carpet, 4 seats, Built over 350 units a month and they worked for a lot of families for over 35 years. As a ski Boat the Tahiti’s worked as good and maybe better the 28'. Hell you can at least drop your arm down and get a hand full of water to wet your face out, You can not get a safer drive then Jet for the family and on top of that you get a "FOOT THROTTLE" to add to the rush, and to me that’s River Rat!
If we can produce a drive that's on a more fuel efficient motor and performs @ 50-53 MPH in a sound family Boat, Its a flat winner. The market is there the next question is WHO to build them!
Thanks for you input

[canuck1]

SB
I'm old school- I don't like the sound of anything less than a V-8. But look at the power to weight ratio of my boat or Squirts or the hull that Pops was talking about versus yours . 210 HP in an 800lb or less boat is better than 600HP in a 3000lb boat
If you leave off the big cam/big carbs you will burn less fuel, if you put this same motor in a light hull it will be quicker and faster. The river guys in NZ do alot of stuff with for and six cylinder motors and on the river fuel consumption and weight is a BIG concern. I came from a glass boat with a healthy BBC and got my ass handed to me by a Mazda Rotary in a lightweight alum hull, Ken burned half the fuel I did with better performance without most of the tech available today, So yes I think there is a market for this type of set-up and the fast and furious crowd will be it
300 hp out of a four cylinder is not that hard to do. now Pops needs to set up his little jet to be able to run at 7000 rpms and more

[canuck1]

Pops
a 15 year old sprint hull with the rotary with out the super charger will give you your 50

[AZKC]

[QUOTE=pops1]Aggressor has had its JR Drive- 7" Mixed flow Drive out in test for sometime.
The Drive has performed well in all case's
The big problem was Motors. We tested with a Mazda Rotary in a 17'10" Alum 62 MPH 2 people in the boat. Motor was 174 HP and we ran up to 5K Rs. Rotary motors never hit as price was a problem and or acceptance.[QUOTE]
Rub that rotary up to about 300 hp and about 8-9000 rpm :220v:

[HBjet]

I have a hunger to get me a Gull Wing and make a Deck Boat out of it- just for fun.
If you do that you should be sent to jail :hammerhea

[old rigger]

Hey pops, I'm very excited to see what you're doing. These guys, canunk and alum.squirt seem to be a wealth of info to draw on. I think your going in the right direction with your project.
By the way, at Tahiti, we never in our best and wildest days, built 350 boats a month. Even back in the begining when my dad was there and all they had to build was the 16, they were dong 5 a day. At Hawaiian (tahiti part II, lol) in the mid to late 70's we were building 9 boats a day, more than we ever dreamed of at Tahiti. But that was only for a solid 2 years before the bubble burst. 9 boats a day, all hand laminated. We had more laminators running around than you could believe.
I'm dying to see your project. can you post some pics????

[old rigger]

If you do that you should be sent to jail :hammerhea
It was already done. Back in the 80s the guy that owned conquest boats (not the sleek conquest) had a 19 gull tunnel bottom that was tooled up for a small deck boat. In fact when I was at Warlock he, I can't remember his name right now, was squirtin gel coat for us and I almost bougth the mold from him to build some boats. Almost.

[spectras only]

OR and others, here some shots for you.Wounder how would this work with a jet ? :wink: .Light hull ,proven design from the 16th century :D
http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/Img_0116.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/Img_0118.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/Img_0119.jpg

[pops1]

Pops
a 15 year old sprint hull with the rotary with out the super charger will give you your 50
We used a stock B Block (174 HP) in the test on gas no supercharger. The Problem with the one your talking about was a 9" Drive with a super cut on the impeller to make it function. We provided both bowls and impellers and Skip ended up with a "H" like cut on the Impeller to get it to run hard- soft on plane. There was no large dia. left on the final cut of the impeller. We did learn a lot from this test. Anothers Impeller was cut to a D/E and Harmonics drove you out of the boat. You could not stand the noise.
As to the 300HP Atkins Rotary has done some Big things with the Rotary, He now owns Camden Blowers and has been working hard to get that package together right. He also builds 1, 2, and 3 Rotar Motors at and over 350 HP.
I like the Rotary yet there is a public and dealer draw or hold back on the motor. I think old stigma or something

[old rigger]

Where does the rotary engine land in when it comes to smog laws? It's not a 4 stroke and not a 2 stroke. I think Harry Christensens son in law was messing around with these in buggys and even as a power head on an outboard. I would think that would work pretty good too. I know nothing about rotarys, so I'm just guessing .
I also just read where all new boats starting in 2006 will have to have catalitic converters installed. Should add a grand to the cost of every boat. Have you heard anything about this too?

[likwidsukr]

I love this shi(t) :eat: