View Full Version : Decibel Level Issue at Havasu
Yesterday iI ignorantly posted spam. I've received my replies from fellow boaters digging me pretty hard about that. Some even said I'd probably not even have anything valuable to add to the forum. Ok so posting the thread was a bad idea. IÂ’ve apologized. I still apologize... won't happen again... OLC isn't just dB (though it has stirred up a good controversy); it's anything over the limit. Like if you saw the page at havasunow.com/olc and scrolled down the next shirts coming are "OLC double d's". The OLC idea is supposed to be humorous and not taken so seriously. I mean if you come to the river often enough you should be well aware their are more serious things happening on the water then sound level. Talk to local Law Enforcement and they'll tell you Fatalities, Bui's (Oui's in AZ), carbon monoxide and safety infractions such as kids not in life jackets etc... are the priority. My spam became very controversial and it brought up the dB issue again. Here's my take on the decibel level living here in Havasu.
There is a time and place for everything. We have to ask ourselves what is reasonable? If you go up river in the refuge, the US Fish and Wildlife Service watch for the noise issue, but they have different laws that pertain to the wildlife refuge to enforce. ThatÂ’s reasonable.
If you make runs up and down the lake, say in front of Crazyhorse early in the am and disturb the camperÂ’s, thatÂ’s not reasonable. But if youÂ’re making a run to the springs mid morning and you leave from Thompson Bay who's going to care? YouÂ’re leaving a populated area. Like if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it fall? The laws in California have changed not Arizona. Here a link to a good little article that spells that out (not spam): www.havasunow.com/news (http://www.havasunow.com/news)
the article was posted 1-17-05. (scroll down the page to it)
The laws are very simple in AZ. 5-336 says:
"A. Every motor driven watercraft shall at all times be equipped with effective equipment, in good working order and in constant operation, to prevent excessive or unusual noise except as provided in subsection C. (regattas)
B. It is not the intent of this section to prohibit the use of any type of exhaust system or exhaust device, including those systems and devices which do not discharge water with the exhaust gases, if such system or device complies with subsection A of this section."
So if your equipment (whatever it may be) can "muffle" the noise so as not to create excessive or unusual noise you should be ok. Define "unusual" or "excessive" noise because it's not defined in the statute. Therefore is subjective. Which brings us back to what is reasonable? If you get a citation for 5-336.A the officer is telling you he/ she can articulate in court why you were excessive or unusual. Could you articulate why you weren't excessive or unusual? ThatÂ’s where your focus should be I think.
Why do you buy a high performance boat? Doesn't "high performance" mean it's going to be louder than a Bayliner? Where are we going to run our high performance boats? Only in the ocean? Won't that affect the whales migrating to Alaska?
Our job as boaters is to be reasonable. The current problems stem from a few that aren't or haven't been. Do you think the Marina would have started checking dB level if there werenÂ’t complaints. What if we all wait to start our boat when it is all of the way in the water instead of as the truck is backing us in or; shut them off prior to getting on the trailer instead of powering them on? What about starting up and just slowly backing the boat out into the bay without revving the motor up? Let her warm up slowly. There are things we can do to change our launching habits that would be more reasonable. It's the few who continued to rev and rev their motors creating excessive noise which caused the complaints(IÂ’m just guessing). The poker runs aren't helping things either. Boats are getting too big for little ole Havasu. Okay let me re-phrase that... Not too big for the lake, there are getting to be too many big boats on the lake.
Now I know some of you are saying AZ has a law where it states you can't be over 86 dB, on an A weighted scale, at fifty feet, while underway. Right?
That is an AZ Game and Fish rule (like a law but agency specific). Talk to any AZ officer on the lake and see how many times that has been tried in court. How can an officer reasonably meet all of those specific criteria?
1. You can't have any other noise around because even a sneeze will be picked up by the dB meter. 2. Turn all the other boats on the lake off while we do this test! 3. Now we are going to drive (underway) and your going to follow me at exactly 50' so you can check me. By the way is your dB meter certified? By who? When? Are the batteries low or are they new?
So here we are again - back to being reasonable.
CA changed their laws. They had their own reasons for doing so. Maybe valid reasons? Maybe due to over-crowding? Whatever the reason, they changed just as the Marina started their own testing. This was just a coincidence. The point of all this is the whole dB issue is blown way out of proportion. If it was a problem, our state legislatures would be proposing a law to change the current one. TheyÂ’re not do that as of yet. LetÂ’s stay reasonable with how we conduct ourselves on the lake and worry about real issues like boating accidents, alcohol related offences, lewd and lascivious acts and public safety issues. Here's at tip: register your boat in AZ then most agencies will only enforce the AZ laws with you. And donÂ’t take OLC too seriously. Except for the spam issueÂ… Sorry again.
Off my soap box - Out
Not So Fast
05-10-2005, 01:19 PM
Way too long to read dude ;) NSF
ChumpChange
05-10-2005, 01:23 PM
Do you own a boat?
Phat Matt
05-10-2005, 01:26 PM
Like if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it fall?
Sure. But did it make a noise? :D
Yesterday i ignorantly posted spam. I've received my replies from fellow boaters digging me pretty hard about that. Some even said I'd probably not even have anything valuable to add to the forum. ok so posting the thread was a bad idea. IÂ’ve apologized. I still apologize... won't happen again... OLC isn't just dB (though it has stirred up a good controversy); it's anything over the limit. Like if you saw the page at havasunow.com/olc and scrolled down the next shirts coming are "OLC double d's". The OLC idea is supposed to be humorous and not taken so seriously. I mean if you come to the river often enough you should be well aware their are more serious things happening on the water then sound level. Talk to local Law Enforcement and they'll tell you Fatalities, Bui's (Oui's in AZ), carbon monoxide and safety infractions such as kids not in life jackets etc... are the priority. My spam became very controversial and it brought up the dB issue again. Here's my take on the decibel level living here in Havasu.
There is a time and place for everything. We have to aske ourselves what is reasonable? If you go up river in the refuge the US Fish and Wildlife Service watch for the noise, but they have different laws that pertain to the wildlife refuge to enforce. ThatÂ’s reasonable.
If you make runs up and down the lake, say in front of Crazyhorse early in the am and disturb the camperÂ’s, thatÂ’s not reasonable. But if youÂ’re making a run to the springs mid morning and you leave from Thompson Bay who's going to care? YouÂ’re leaving a populated area. Like if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it fall? The laws in California have changed not Arizona. Here a link to a good little article that spells that out (not spam): www.havasunow.com/news (http://www.havasunow.com/news)
the article was posted 1-17-05. (scroll down the page to it)
The laws are very simple in AZ. 5-336 says:
"A. Every motor driven watercraft shall at all times be equipped with effective equipment, in good working order and in constant operation, to prevent excessive or unusual noise except as provided in subsection C. (regattas)
B. It is not the intent of this section to prohibit the use of any type of exhaust system or exhaust device, including those systems and devices which do not discharge water with the exhaust gases, if such system or device complies with subsection A of this section."
So if your equipment (whatever it may be) can "muffle" the noise so as not to create excessive or unusual noise you should be ok. Define "unusual" or "excessive" noise because it's not defined in the statute. Therefore is subjective. Which brings us back to what is reasonable? If you get a citation for 5-336.A the officer is telling you he/ she can articulate in court why you were excessive or unusual. Could you articulate why you weren't excessive or unusual? ThatÂ’s where your focus should be I think.
Why do you buy a high performance boat? Doesn't "high performance" mean it's going to be louder than a Bayliner? Where are we going to run our high performance boats? Only in the ocean? Won't that affect the whales migrating to Alaska?
Our job as boaters is to be reasonable. The current problems stem from a few that aren't or haven't been. Do you think the Marina would have started checking dB level if there werenÂ’t complaints. What if we all wait to start our boat when it is all of the way in the water instead of as the truck is backing us in or; shut them off prior to getting on the trailer instead of powering them on? What about starting up and just slowly backing the boat out into the bay without revving the motor up? Let her warm up slowly. There are things we can do to change our launching habits that would be more reasonable. It's the few who continued to rev and rev their motors creating excessive noise which caused the complaints(IÂ’m just guessing). The poker runs aren't helping things either. Boats are getting too big for little ole Havasu. Okay let me re-phrase that... Not too big for the lake, there are getting to be too many big boats on the lake.
Now I know some of you are saying AZ has a law where it states you can't be over 86 dB, on an A weighted scale, at fifty feet, while underway. Right?
That is an AZ Game and Fish rule (like a law but agency specific). Talk to any AZ officer on the lake and see how many times that has been tried in court. How can an officer reasonably meet all of those specific criteria?
1. You can't have any other noise around because even a sneeze will be picked up by the dB meter. 2. Turn all the other boats on the lake off while we do this test! 3. Now we are going to drive (underway) and your going to follow me at exactly 50' so you can check me. By the way is your dB meter certified? By who? When? Are the batteries low or are they new?
So here we are again - back to being reasonable.
CA changed their laws. They had their own reasons for doing so. Maybe valid reasons? Maybe due to over-crowding? Whatever the reason, they changed just as the Marina started their own testing. This was just a coincidence. The point of all this is the whole dB issue is blown way out of proportion. If it was a problem, our state legislatures would be proposing a law to change the current one. TheyÂ’re not do that as of yet. LetÂ’s stay reasonable with how we conduct ourselves on the lake and worry about real issues like boating accidents, alcohol related offences, lewd and lascivious acts and public safety issues. Here's at tip: register your boat in AZ then most agencies will only enforce the AZ laws with you. And donÂ’t take OLC too seriously. Except for the spam issueÂ… Sorry again.
Off my soap box - Out
Newbie advice,lesson TWO (here's where you take notes):
DO YOUR RESEARCH ON THIS BOARD
The noise issues have been beat to death but are still a sore topic with many. While your thoughts are helpful, the manner in which you deliver them is questionable.
The shirts look cool, but my first thoughts are they are nothing more than somebody capitalizing on the latest buzz topic. Do they "help" the cause - probably not.
But to each his own, so knock em' dead. :)
phebus
05-10-2005, 01:30 PM
Please don't anyone else quote this guy. The first time it was on here, it was way to long, and now I had to see it again. I think I'm gonna hurl!! :hammerhea
ChumpChange
05-10-2005, 01:36 PM
How about this Phebus?
Yesterday i ignorantly posted spam. I've received my replies from fellow boaters digging me pretty hard about that. Some even said I'd probably not even have anything valuable to add to the forum. ok so posting the thread was a bad idea. IÂ’ve apologized. I still apologize... won't happen again... OLC isn't just dB (though it has stirred up a good controversy); it's anything over the limit. Like if you saw the page at havasunow.com/olc and scrolled down the next shirts coming are "OLC double d's". The OLC idea is supposed to be humorous and not taken so seriously. I mean if you come to the river often enough you should be well aware their are more serious things happening on the water then sound level. Talk to local Law Enforcement and they'll tell you Fatalities, Bui's (Oui's in AZ), carbon monoxide and safety infractions such as kids not in life jackets etc... are the priority. My spam became very controversial and it brought up the dB issue again. Here's my take on the decibel level living here in Havasu.
There is a time and place for everything. We have to aske ourselves what is reasonable? If you go up river in the refuge the US Fish and Wildlife Service watch for the noise, but they have different laws that pertain to the wildlife refuge to enforce. ThatÂ’s reasonable.
If you make runs up and down the lake, say in front of Crazyhorse early in the am and disturb the camperÂ’s, thatÂ’s not reasonable. But if youÂ’re making a run to the springs mid morning and you leave from Thompson Bay who's going to care? YouÂ’re leaving a populated area. Like if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it fall? The laws in California have changed not Arizona. Here a link to a good little article that spells that out (not spam): www.havasunow.com/news (http://www.havasunow.com/news)
the article was posted 1-17-05. (scroll down the page to it)
The laws are very simple in AZ. 5-336 says:
"A. Every motor driven watercraft shall at all times be equipped with effective equipment, in good working order and in constant operation, to prevent excessive or unusual noise except as provided in subsection C. (regattas)
B. It is not the intent of this section to prohibit the use of any type of exhaust system or exhaust device, including those systems and devices which do not discharge water with the exhaust gases, if such system or device complies with subsection A of this section."
So if your equipment (whatever it may be) can "muffle" the noise so as not to create excessive or unusual noise you should be ok. Define "unusual" or "excessive" noise because it's not defined in the statute. Therefore is subjective. Which brings us back to what is reasonable? If you get a citation for 5-336.A the officer is telling you he/ she can articulate in court why you were excessive or unusual. Could you articulate why you weren't excessive or unusual? ThatÂ’s where your focus should be I think.
Why do you buy a high performance boat? Doesn't "high performance" mean it's going to be louder than a Bayliner? Where are we going to run our high performance boats? Only in the ocean? Won't that affect the whales migrating to Alaska?
Our job as boaters is to be reasonable. The current problems stem from a few that aren't or haven't been. Do you think the Marina would have started checking dB level if there werenÂ’t complaints. What if we all wait to start our boat when it is all of the way in the water instead of as the truck is backing us in or; shut them off prior to getting on the trailer instead of powering them on? What about starting up and just slowly backing the boat out into the bay without revving the motor up? Let her warm up slowly. There are things we can do to change our launching habits that would be more reasonable. It's the few who continued to rev and rev their motors creating excessive noise which caused the complaints(IÂ’m just guessing). The poker runs aren't helping things either. Boats are getting too big for little ole Havasu. Okay let me re-phrase that... Not too big for the lake, there are getting to be too many big boats on the lake.
Now I know some of you are saying AZ has a law where it states you can't be over 86 dB, on an A weighted scale, at fifty feet, while underway. Right?
That is an AZ Game and Fish rule (like a law but agency specific). Talk to any AZ officer on the lake and see how many times that has been tried in court. How can an officer reasonably meet all of those specific criteria?
1. You can't have any other noise around because even a sneeze will be picked up by the dB meter. 2. Turn all the other boats on the lake off while we do this test! 3. Now we are going to drive (underway) and your going to follow me at exactly 50' so you can check me. By the way is your dB meter certified? By who? When? Are the batteries low or are they new?
So here we are again - back to being reasonable.
CA changed their laws. They had their own reasons for doing so. Maybe valid reasons? Maybe due to over-crowding? Whatever the reason, they changed just as the Marina started their own testing. This was just a coincidence. The point of all this is the whole dB issue is blown way out of proportion. If it was a problem, our state legislatures would be proposing a law to change the current one. TheyÂ’re not do that as of yet. LetÂ’s stay reasonable with how we conduct ourselves on the lake and worry about real issues like boating accidents, alcohol related offences, lewd and lascivious acts and public safety issues. Here's at tip: register your boat in AZ then most agencies will only enforce the AZ laws with you. And donÂ’t take OLC too seriously. Except for the spam issueÂ… Sorry again.
Off my soap box - Out
Yesterday i ignorantly posted spam. I've received my replies from fellow boaters digging me pretty hard about that. Some even said I'd probably not even have anything valuable to add to the forum. ok so posting the thread was a bad idea. IÂ’ve apologized. I still apologize... won't happen again... OLC isn't just dB (though it has stirred up a good controversy); it's anything over the limit. Like if you saw the page at havasunow.com/olc and scrolled down the next shirts coming are "OLC double d's". The OLC idea is supposed to be humorous and not taken so seriously. I mean if you come to the river often enough you should be well aware their are more serious things happening on the water then sound level. Talk to local Law Enforcement and they'll tell you Fatalities, Bui's (Oui's in AZ), carbon monoxide and safety infractions such as kids not in life jackets etc... are the priority. My spam became very controversial and it brought up the dB issue again. Here's my take on the decibel level living here in Havasu.
There is a time and place for everything. We have to aske ourselves what is reasonable? If you go up river in the refuge the US Fish and Wildlife Service watch for the noise, but they have different laws that pertain to the wildlife refuge to enforce. ThatÂ’s reasonable.
If you make runs up and down the lake, say in front of Crazyhorse early in the am and disturb the camperÂ’s, thatÂ’s not reasonable. But if youÂ’re making a run to the springs mid morning and you leave from Thompson Bay who's going to care? YouÂ’re leaving a populated area. Like if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it fall? The laws in California have changed not Arizona. Here a link to a good little article that spells that out (not spam): www.havasunow.com/news (http://www.havasunow.com/news)
the article was posted 1-17-05. (scroll down the page to it)
The laws are very simple in AZ. 5-336 says:
"A. Every motor driven watercraft shall at all times be equipped with effective equipment, in good working order and in constant operation, to prevent excessive or unusual noise except as provided in subsection C. (regattas)
B. It is not the intent of this section to prohibit the use of any type of exhaust system or exhaust device, including those systems and devices which do not discharge water with the exhaust gases, if such system or device complies with subsection A of this section."
So if your equipment (whatever it may be) can "muffle" the noise so as not to create excessive or unusual noise you should be ok. Define "unusual" or "excessive" noise because it's not defined in the statute. Therefore is subjective. Which brings us back to what is reasonable? If you get a citation for 5-336.A the officer is telling you he/ she can articulate in court why you were excessive or unusual. Could you articulate why you weren't excessive or unusual? ThatÂ’s where your focus should be I think.
Why do you buy a high performance boat? Doesn't "high performance" mean it's going to be louder than a Bayliner? Where are we going to run our high performance boats? Only in the ocean? Won't that affect the whales migrating to Alaska?
Our job as boaters is to be reasonable. The current problems stem from a few that aren't or haven't been. Do you think the Marina would have started checking dB level if there werenÂ’t complaints. What if we all wait to start our boat when it is all of the way in the water instead of as the truck is backing us in or; shut them off prior to getting on the trailer instead of powering them on? What about starting up and just slowly backing the boat out into the bay without revving the motor up? Let her warm up slowly. There are things we can do to change our launching habits that would be more reasonable. It's the few who continued to rev and rev their motors creating excessive noise which caused the complaints(IÂ’m just guessing). The poker runs aren't helping things either. Boats are getting too big for little ole Havasu. Okay let me re-phrase that... Not too big for the lake, there are getting to be too many big boats on the lake.
Now I know some of you are saying AZ has a law where it states you can't be over 86 dB, on an A weighted scale, at fifty feet, while underway. Right?
That is an AZ Game and Fish rule (like a law but agency specific). Talk to any AZ officer on the lake and see how many times that has been tried in court. How can an officer reasonably meet all of those specific criteria?
1. You can't have any other noise around because even a sneeze will be picked up by the dB meter. 2. Turn all the other boats on the lake off while we do this test! 3. Now we are going to drive (underway) and your going to follow me at exactly 50' so you can check me. By the way is your dB meter certified? By who? When? Are the batteries low or are they new?
So here we are again - back to being reasonable.
CA changed their laws. They had their own reasons for doing so. Maybe valid reasons? Maybe due to over-crowding? Whatever the reason, they changed just as the Marina started their own testing. This was just a coincidence. The point of all this is the whole dB issue is blown way out of proportion. If it was a problem, our state legislatures would be proposing a law to change the current one. TheyÂ’re not do that as of yet. LetÂ’s stay reasonable with how we conduct ourselves on the lake and worry about real issues like boating accidents, alcohol related offences, lewd and lascivious acts and public safety issues. Here's at tip: register your boat in AZ then most agencies will only enforce the AZ laws with you. And donÂ’t take OLC too seriously. Except for the spam issueÂ… Sorry again.
Off my soap box - Out
Yesterday i ignorantly posted spam. I've received my replies from fellow boaters digging me pretty hard about that. Some even said I'd probably not even have anything valuable to add to the forum. ok so posting the thread was a bad idea. IÂ’ve apologized. I still apologize... won't happen again... OLC isn't just dB (though it has stirred up a good controversy); it's anything over the limit. Like if you saw the page at havasunow.com/olc and scrolled down the next shirts coming are "OLC double d's". The OLC idea is supposed to be humorous and not taken so seriously. I mean if you come to the river often enough you should be well aware their are more serious things happening on the water then sound level. Talk to local Law Enforcement and they'll tell you Fatalities, Bui's (Oui's in AZ), carbon monoxide and safety infractions such as kids not in life jackets etc... are the priority. My spam became very controversial and it brought up the dB issue again. Here's my take on the decibel level living here in Havasu.
There is a time and place for everything. We have to aske ourselves what is reasonable? If you go up river in the refuge the US Fish and Wildlife Service watch for the noise, but they have different laws that pertain to the wildlife refuge to enforce. ThatÂ’s reasonable.
If you make runs up and down the lake, say in front of Crazyhorse early in the am and disturb the camperÂ’s, thatÂ’s not reasonable. But if youÂ’re making a run to the springs mid morning and you leave from Thompson Bay who's going to care? YouÂ’re leaving a populated area. Like if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it fall? The laws in California have changed not Arizona. Here a link to a good little article that spells that out (not spam): www.havasunow.com/news (http://www.havasunow.com/news)
the article was posted 1-17-05. (scroll down the page to it)
The laws are very simple in AZ. 5-336 says:
"A. Every motor driven watercraft shall at all times be equipped with effective equipment, in good working order and in constant operation, to prevent excessive or unusual noise except as provided in subsection C. (regattas)
B. It is not the intent of this section to prohibit the use of any type of exhaust system or exhaust device, including those systems and devices which do not discharge water with the exhaust gases, if such system or device complies with subsection A of this section."
So if your equipment (whatever it may be) can "muffle" the noise so as not to create excessive or unusual noise you should be ok. Define "unusual" or "excessive" noise because it's not defined in the statute. Therefore is subjective. Which brings us back to what is reasonable? If you get a citation for 5-336.A the officer is telling you he/ she can articulate in court why you were excessive or unusual. Could you articulate why you weren't excessive or unusual? ThatÂ’s where your focus should be I think.
Why do you buy a high performance boat? Doesn't "high performance" mean it's going to be louder than a Bayliner? Where are we going to run our high performance boats? Only in the ocean? Won't that affect the whales migrating to Alaska?
Our job as boaters is to be reasonable. The current problems stem from a few that aren't or haven't been. Do you think the Marina would have started checking dB level if there werenÂ’t complaints. What if we all wait to start our boat when it is all of the way in the water instead of as the truck is backing us in or; shut them off prior to getting on the trailer instead of powering them on? What about starting up and just slowly backing the boat out into the bay without revving the motor up? Let her warm up slowly. There are things we can do to change our launching habits that would be more reasonable. It's the few who continued to rev and rev their motors creating excessive noise which caused the complaints(IÂ’m just guessing). The poker runs aren't helping things either. Boats are getting too big for little ole Havasu. Okay let me re-phrase that... Not too big for the lake, there are getting to be too many big boats on the lake.
Now I know some of you are saying AZ has a law where it states you can't be over 86 dB, on an A weighted scale, at fifty feet, while underway. Right?
That is an AZ Game and Fish rule (like a law but agency specific). Talk to any AZ officer on the lake and see how many times that has been tried in court. How can an officer reasonably meet all of those specific criteria?
1. You can't have any other noise around because even a sneeze will be picked up by the dB meter. 2. Turn all the other boats on the lake off while we do this test! 3. Now we are going to drive (underway) and your going to follow me at exactly 50' so you can check me. By the way is your dB meter certified? By who? When? Are the batteries low or are they new?
So here we are again - back to being reasonable.
CA changed their laws. They had their own reasons for doing so. Maybe valid reasons? Maybe due to over-crowding? Whatever the reason, they changed just as the Marina started their own testing. This was just a coincidence. The point of all this is the whole dB issue is blown way out of proportion. If it was a problem, our state legislatures would be proposing a law to change the current one. TheyÂ’re not do that as of yet. LetÂ’s stay reasonable with how we conduct ourselves on the lake and worry about real issues like boating accidents, alcohol related offences, lewd and lascivious acts and public safety issues. Here's at tip: register your boat in AZ then most agencies will only enforce the AZ laws with you. And donÂ’t take OLC too seriously. Except for the spam issueÂ… Sorry again.
Off my soap box - Out
Yesterday i ignorantly posted spam. I've received my replies from fellow boaters digging me pretty hard about that. Some even said I'd probably not even have anything valuable to add to the forum. ok so posting the thread was a bad idea. IÂ’ve apologized. I still apologize... won't happen again... OLC isn't just dB (though it has stirred up a good controversy); it's anything over the limit. Like if you saw the page at havasunow.com/olc and scrolled down the next shirts coming are "OLC double d's". The OLC idea is supposed to be humorous and not taken so seriously. I mean if you come to the river often enough you should be well aware their are more serious things happening on the water then sound level. Talk to local Law Enforcement and they'll tell you Fatalities, Bui's (Oui's in AZ), carbon monoxide and safety infractions such as kids not in life jackets etc... are the priority. My spam became very controversial and it brought up the dB issue again. Here's my take on the decibel level living here in Havasu.
There is a time and place for everything. We have to aske ourselves what is reasonable? If you go up river in the refuge the US Fish and Wildlife Service watch for the noise, but they have different laws that pertain to the wildlife refuge to enforce. ThatÂ’s reasonable.
If you make runs up and down the lake, say in front of Crazyhorse early in the am and disturb the camperÂ’s, thatÂ’s not reasonable. But if youÂ’re making a run to the springs mid morning and you leave from Thompson Bay who's going to care? YouÂ’re leaving a populated area. Like if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it fall? The laws in California have changed not Arizona. Here a link to a good little article that spells that out (not spam): www.havasunow.com/news (http://www.havasunow.com/news)
the article was posted 1-17-05. (scroll down the page to it)
The laws are very simple in AZ. 5-336 says:
"A. Every motor driven watercraft shall at all times be equipped with effective equipment, in good working order and in constant operation, to prevent excessive or unusual noise except as provided in subsection C. (regattas)
B. It is not the intent of this section to prohibit the use of any type of exhaust system or exhaust device, including those systems and devices which do not discharge water with the exhaust gases, if such system or device complies with subsection A of this section."
So if your equipment (whatever it may be) can "muffle" the noise so as not to create excessive or unusual noise you should be ok. Define "unusual" or "excessive" noise because it's not defined in the statute. Therefore is subjective. Which brings us back to what is reasonable? If you get a citation for 5-336.A the officer is telling you he/ she can articulate in court why you were excessive or unusual. Could you articulate why you weren't excessive or unusual? ThatÂ’s where your focus should be I think.
Why do you buy a high performance boat? Doesn't "high performance" mean it's going to be louder than a Bayliner? Where are we going to run our high performance boats? Only in the ocean? Won't that affect the whales migrating to Alaska?
Our job as boaters is to be reasonable. The current problems stem from a few that aren't or haven't been. Do you think the Marina would have started checking dB level if there werenÂ’t complaints. What if we all wait to start our boat when it is all of the way in the water instead of as the truck is backing us in or; shut them off prior to getting on the trailer instead of powering them on? What about starting up and just slowly backing the boat out into the bay without revving the motor up? Let her warm up slowly. There are things we can do to change our launching habits that would be more reasonable. It's the few who continued to rev and rev their motors creating excessive noise which caused the complaints(IÂ’m just guessing). The poker runs aren't helping things either. Boats are getting too big for little ole Havasu. Okay let me re-phrase that... Not too big for the lake, there are getting to be too many big boats on the lake.
Now I know some of you are saying AZ has a law where it states you can't be over 86 dB, on an A weighted scale, at fifty feet, while underway. Right?
That is an AZ Game and Fish rule (like a law but agency specific). Talk to any AZ officer on the lake and see how many times that has been tried in court. How can an officer reasonably meet all of those specific criteria?
1. You can't have any other noise around because even a sneeze will be picked up by the dB meter. 2. Turn all the other boats on the lake off while we do this test! 3. Now we are going to drive (underway) and your going to follow me at exactly 50' so you can check me. By the way is your dB meter certified? By who? When? Are the batteries low or are they new?
So here we are again - back to being reasonable.
CA changed their laws. They had their own reasons for doing so. Maybe valid reasons? Maybe due to over-crowding? Whatever the reason, they changed just as the Marina started their own testing. This was just a coincidence. The point of all this is the whole dB issue is blown way out of proportion. If it was a problem, our state legislatures would be proposing a law to change the current one. TheyÂ’re not do that as of yet. LetÂ’s stay reasonable with how we conduct ourselves on the lake and worry about real issues like boating accidents, alcohol related offences, lewd and lascivious acts and public safety issues. Here's at tip: register your boat in AZ then most agencies will only enforce the AZ laws with you. And donÂ’t take OLC too seriously. Except for the spam issueÂ… Sorry again.
Off my soap box - Out
Todd969
05-10-2005, 01:41 PM
Nice Matt, real Freakin' nice.............. damn you!
phebus
05-10-2005, 01:41 PM
I am just going to post it on the refrigerator, and I'll become bulemic (sp). Best weight loss plan going!! :D
charlyox
05-10-2005, 01:54 PM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz
SoCalKev
05-10-2005, 02:17 PM
How about this Phebus?
so you're saying...... wait.. :confused: .... what's going on in this thread? . . :jawdrop: . . ahahhhhhhh!! :eat:
OGShocker
05-10-2005, 02:47 PM
Sure. But did it make a noise? :D
Holy crap Matt, you read that whole post? LMAO.!. :D
here's a couple replies:
1.Sorry you thought it was too long.
2.ChumpChange - Yes
3.C-2 - The issue was brought up to me last night. I realize it's been beaten to death. But I hear about it every day. Alot of people still don't understand the issue fully or the laws. The one's that come here each weekend (to Havasu). Look at all the advertisements for muffler systems. Like Rex Marine a banner on this site. Capitalizing on the buzz??? Not with a $15.00 t-shirt. The Shirts are humerous thats all. If you don't like it that's okay. The shirts and what I was trying to say are two different issues. Did you agree with what I said. What I wrote was intended to "help" with the problem. Definately not the shirts.
4. Phebus - You're right - no need to quote the whole thing. And its "Bulimic"
5. SoCalKev What's not to get? I said: as boaters we need to be more reasonable on the water etc... (our actions)
Thats all
H20Advantage
05-10-2005, 03:08 PM
I so want to quote that quote but I can't bring myself to do it and keep my lunch down at the same time :hammerhea
lol - what doesn't anyone ever read indepth articles? aren't there any in ***boat mag? what about books? sheesh i get it last night and i get it today. I may be new on here but, not new to boating...
lol - what doesn't anyone ever read indepth articles? aren't there any in ***boat mag? what about books? sheesh i get it last night and i get it today. I may be new on here but, not new to boating...
Hot Boat has a magazine.
Havasu Hangin'
05-10-2005, 03:16 PM
So are you donating some money from every shirt to get the laws changed and/or get the Marina's lease revoked?
ChumpChange
05-10-2005, 03:17 PM
Hot Boat has a magazine.
Beautifl. That comment hit me at just the right time.
Essex29
05-10-2005, 03:18 PM
lol - what doesn't anyone ever read indepth articles? aren't there any in ***boat mag? what about books? sheesh i get it last night and i get it today. I may be new on here but, not new to boating...
rough crowd....you better re-register under a different name. :p
ChumpChange
05-10-2005, 03:20 PM
rough crowd....you better re-register under a different name. :p
HH is already looking at the thread, not good for olc seeing he has already dealt with one moderator on his two day stay.
what am i doing wrong now ChumpChange? Thanks Essex29.
Why do you want to go to the Marina? There's other places. Why do the laws need to be changed in AZ? Is Rex Marine donating to changing the laws? AZ isn't going to change their law on dB right now. They would change the OUI laws first. Like: make it affect your drivers license or track 2 or more with in 60 months on your record to charge felony. Did you know there isn't even a law under title 5 that says failing to stop for an officer on the water is felony flight. Yep look it up - no felony flight under title 5 only motor vehicle code (title 28)
Boatcop
05-10-2005, 03:37 PM
Define "unusual" or "excessive" noise because it's not defined in the statute. Therefore is subjective. Which brings us back to what is reasonable? If you get a citation for 5-336.A the officer is telling you he/ she can articulate in court why you were excessive or unusual. Could you articulate why you weren't excessive or unusual? ThatÂ’s where your focus should be I think.
I didn't quote the whole rambling because it's moot. As is the part I did quote.
Arizona Game and Fish Commission Rule
R12-4-516. Watercraft Sound Level Restriction
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to operate a watercraft upon the waters of this state under any condition or in any manner that the watercraft emits a sound level in excess of 86 decibels on the "A" weighted scale when measured from a distance of 50 feet or more from the watercraft.
B. This Section shall not apply to watercraft operated under permits issued in accordance to A.R.S. § 5-336(C).
We "articulate" in court that we were at least 50 feet from the violator vessel, and that the db reading, using a certified, calibrated meter on the "A" scale, was greater than 86 decibles.
Nothing subjective about that.
Havasu Hangin'
05-10-2005, 03:38 PM
Why do you want to go to the Marina?
Two reasons:
1. The Marina is the only place I can make a turn to get my boat lined up straight on the ramp.
2. The Marina is the only sheltered ramp- ever try to trailer an 11,000lb. boat in a crosswind?
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/506/279AZ_Gov.jpg
Are you with us or against us?
That Guy
05-10-2005, 03:40 PM
what am i doing wrong now ChumpChange? Thanks Essex29.
Why do you want to go to the Marina? There's other places. Why do the laws need to be changed in AZ? Is Rex Marine donating to changing the laws? AZ isn't going to change their law on dB right now. They would change the OUI laws first. Like: make it affect your drivers license or track 2 or more with in 60 months on your record to charge felony. Did you know there isn't even a law under title 5 that says failing to stop for an officer on the water is felony flight. Yep look it up - no felony flight under title 5 only motor vehicle code (title 28)
Brother, not since the new guy jumped in and called the Shocker "old school" has anyone made such a first 2 day splash....2 Mods in 2 days...I wonder what the record is...... :crossx:
Boatcop
05-10-2005, 03:42 PM
Ho-Hum.
This may take all night correcting the uninformed.
It already is a Felony for the 3rd OUI in 60 months. 2nd is still a misdmeanor, but calls for a longer jail sentence and increased fine.
ARS 5-391.C. In the enforcement of this chapter, the operator of the watercraft upon being hailed by any peace officer shall stop immediately and lay to, or maneuver in such a way as to permit the peace officer to come aboard or alongside. The operator may be ordered ashore to correct any unlawful condition, issued a written warning or written repair order, or issued a citation for any violation of this chapter.
Not a Felony, but the sentence can run up to 1 year in jail and a $5,000 dollar fine.
NEXT!
So you enforce AZ G&F rules not ARS? Seems too hard to enforce the 50' feet rule. Do you have a tape measure? Are their any other boats around making noise? Are you in a confined area between two block walls like on the ramp area or in a canyon between mountains. Does echo affect the test? What about weather conditions?
riverbound
05-10-2005, 03:46 PM
Is Rex Marine donating to changing the laws?
Even though he is a newbie, he does have apoint here. Do you really think that REX, Eddie, Gibson, Dana etc.... Ever did anything to help with this? Of course not this is law and the enforcement and focus on it is great for their business.
olc= you will have to put up with alot of criticism. you started off with a rough 2 days, hopefully things get better for you. Or you could take the easy way out and just register under a nother screen name and start over. Just remember, Its only the internet.
ChumpChange
05-10-2005, 03:49 PM
First the moderators and the BoatCop? Wow, this has to be a record of some sort. The record for starting off on the wrong foot.
Boatcop
05-10-2005, 03:50 PM
AZGFD Rules and ARS go hand in hand. Here's another one:
ARS 5-391.B All peace officers of the state, counties and cities shall enforce the provisions of this chapter and all laws and rules relating to the operation of watercraft.
Go ahead and argue in court your echo theroy and all the other stuff. It's been done. We know what we're doing. I've never lost a sound level case.
After all. I've only been doing this on the State and/or Federal level for 30 years.
probably will re-register however it's funny how this issue it so terrible. Why don't we get drunks off the water? license boaters? or something serious..
and i said: failing to stop is not a felony -
whats the ARS for 3 violation in 60 months felony? who keeps track of it? Not MVD, AZ G&F? Call them on a Saturday.
ChumpChange
05-10-2005, 03:52 PM
AZGFD Rules and ARS go hand in hand. Here's another one:
ARS 5-391.B All peace officers of the state, counties and cities shall enforce the provisions of this chapter and all laws and rules relating to the operation of watercraft.
Go ahead and argue in court your echo theroy and all the other stuff. It's been done. We know what we're doing. I've never lost a sound level case.
After all. I've only been doing this on the State and/or Federal level for 30 years.
:lightsabe BAM olc!!!! :lightsabe That's why some people call him Tim.
not trying to get you going boat cop... keep up the good work!
Boatcop
05-10-2005, 03:54 PM
probably will re-register however it's funny how this issue it so terrible. Why don't we get drunks off the water? license boaters? or something serious..
and i said: failing to stop is not a felony -
whats the ARS for 3 violation in 60 months felony? who keeps track of it? Not MVD, AZ G&F? Call them on a Saturday.
5-398.02. Records of convictions and judgments; abstract of record; reports
A. Each magistrate, judge or hearing officer of a court shall:
1. Keep or cause to be kept a record of each violation of this article deposited with or presented to the court.
2. Keep a record of each official action by the court in reference to each violation of this article deposited with or presented to the court, including but not limited to a record of:
(a) Each conviction, forfeiture of bail or deposit or judgment of acquittal.
(b) The amount of the penalty, fine or forfeiture resulting from each complaint deposited with or presented to the court.
B. Within ten days after the conviction, judgment or forfeiture of bail or deposit of a person on a charge of violating this article, each magistrate of the court or clerk of the court of record in which the conviction or judgment was had or bail or deposit was forfeited shall prepare and immediately forward to the department of transportation an abstract of the record of the court covering the case in which the person either:
1. Was convicted.
2. Was adjudicated to have committed a violation.
3. Forfeited bail or deposit.
C. The person required to prepare the abstract shall certify that it is true and correct.
D. The abstract shall be made on a form furnished or in a manner prescribed by the department of transportation and shall include:
1. The name and address of the party charged.
2. The number, if any, of the driver license, permit or identification license of the party charged.
3. The nature of the offense or violation.
4. The disposition or whether bail or deposit was forfeited.
5. The amount of the fine, penalty or forfeiture.
E. The department of transportation shall keep all abstracts received under this section for inspection as required by law.
This may get fun. Keep 'em coming.
just one more thing... when is it right to enforce AZ G&F rules and when do you enforce ARS? Whats the criteria? Or would you cite both on the same cite?
Boatcop
05-10-2005, 03:58 PM
Oh yeah. Here's the answer to the first part.
5-396. Aggravated operating or actual physical control of motorized watercraft while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs; classification
A. A person is guilty of aggravated operating or actual physical control of a motorized watercraft that is underway while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs if the person commits a third or subsequent violation of section 5-395 or 5-397 or this section or is convicted of a violation of section 5-395 or 5-397 or this section and has previously been convicted of any combination of convictions of section 5-395 or 5-397 or this section or acts committed in another state that if committed in this state would be a violation of section 5-395 or 5-397 or this section within a period of sixty months.
B. The dates of the commission of the offenses are the determining factor in applying the sixty month provision provided in subsection A of this section regardless of the sequence in which the offenses were committed. For purposes of this section, a third or subsequent violation for which a conviction occurs does not include a conviction for an offense arising out of the same series of acts.
C. Aggravated operating or actual physical control of a motorized watercraft that is underway while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drugs is a class 4 felony.
D. Notwithstanding section 41-1604.06, a person who is convicted under subsection A of this section and who within a sixty month period has been convicted of two prior violations of section 5-395 or 5-397 or this section, or acts committed in another state that if committed in this state would be a violation of section 5-395 or 5-397 or this section, is not eligible for probation, pardon, commutation or suspension of sentence or release on any other basis until the person has served not less than four months in prison.
E. Notwithstanding section 41-1604.06, a person who is convicted under subsection A of this section and who within a sixty month period has been convicted of three or more prior violations of section 5-395 or 5-397 or this section, or acts committed in another state that if committed in this state would be a violation of section 5-395 or 5-397 or this section, is not eligible for probation, pardon, commutation or suspension of sentence or release on any other basis until the person has served not less than eight months in prison.
-------------------
Notice that it says PRISON!
That means hard time, the big house, the Arizona Department of Corrections, the State Pen, rooming with a guy named Bubba.
so you call the courts, magistrate or JP to see all of their title 5 violations? How do you know 3rd offence w/ in 60 months? who do you call?
wow intense it says "prison" who do you call to check again?
ChumpChange
05-10-2005, 04:10 PM
Like somebody once told me"
Don't argue with an idiot. They'll just bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Jrocket
05-10-2005, 04:40 PM
I told ya so!
Just passin by and tried not to stare......but when someone is this big of a dumbass, it is like trying not to look at a train reck.
Where is Darwin when we need him. Sheeeet, even Hanson could kick this guy's ass in a logic battle.
:rollside: :boxed: :rollside:
Sane Asylum
05-10-2005, 05:22 PM
even Hanson could kick this guy's ass in a logic battle.
:rollside: :boxed: :rollside:
Does logic involve at least a 30 pack before it kicks in???? If so, Hanson's your man......
Kachina26
05-10-2005, 05:27 PM
Seems too hard to enforce the 50' feet rule. Do you have a tape measure?
A tape measure, that there is good comedy. "But sir, you were only 49' away, that test is invalid" :rolleyes:
Boatcop
05-10-2005, 05:33 PM
so you call the courts, magistrate or JP to see all of their title 5 violations? How do you know 3rd offence w/ in 60 months? who do you call?
Notice all the references to "Department of Transportation"? (ADOT)
The information on priors is stored in driver's license records, just like previous traffic violations. When we run the information, the abstract of convictions gets pulled up. Even if you have an out-of-state driver's license, the record is there, brought up by name and date of birth. They don't have any effect on the driver's license status. Just the record of OUI convictions show up.
The info is also contained in State and FBI Criminal History files. The prosecutor's office runs a criminal history check before commencing any prosecution. All priors will show up there, and the complaint (Citation) is ammended to reflect any new or different charges.
mike37
05-10-2005, 05:38 PM
cant we all just get along
Panic Button
05-10-2005, 05:42 PM
A tape measure, that there is good comedy. "But sir, you were only 49' away, that test is invalid" :rolleyes:
I've seen things thrown out of court for less.
Notice all the references to "Department of Transportation"? (ADOT)
The information on priors is stored in driver's license records, just like previous traffic violations. When we run the information, the abstract of convictions gets pulled up. Even if you have an out-of-state driver's license, the record is there, brought up by name and date of birth. They don't have any effect on the driver's license status. Just the record of OUI convictions show up.
The info is also contained in State and FBI Criminal History files. The prosecutor's office runs a criminal history check before commencing any prosecution. All priors will show up there, and the complaint (Citation) is ammended to reflect any new or different charges.
I'll respond for olc:
But how do you know that information is accurate? And what record to you choose to look at....State, FBI, ADOT? That is so subjective when you can choose which facts and records to look at. And did they measure the person in the records with a measuring tape? When they looked at their I.D. for confirmation, was there backlight in the photo, did they just get a hair cut, did they have gel in their hair, do they have facial hair, did they have their ass waxed, are they wearing glasses...I mean superman hides his identity by wearing glasses. :) :) :)
Froggystyle
05-10-2005, 06:00 PM
OLC,
If you do bail out and go get a new username and start over (heavily recommended...) I was wondering...
Can I have yours? I have been looking for a good piss-off username to flame jackasses with. You have the greatest start on a crappy reputation of anyone since Kahnamoko.
Plus, I have been meaning to flame Rex, Boatcop and HH for some time now and haven't been around long enough in one sitting to engage properly. ;)
I love this place.
Ultrafied
05-10-2005, 06:01 PM
All this to sell some T-shirts ..... aaaggggghhhhhhh ...... :hammerhea
Kachina26
05-10-2005, 06:02 PM
I'll respond for olc:
But how do you know that information is accurate? And what record to you choose to look at....State, FBI, ADOT? That is so subjective when you can choose which facts and records to look at. And did they measure the person in the records with a measuring tape? When they looked at their I.D. for confirmation, was there backlight in the photo, did they just get a hair cut, did they have gel in their hair, do they have facial hair, did they have their ass waxed, are they wearing glasses...I mean superman hides his identity by wearing glasses. :) :) :)
Are you sure olc didn't steal your identity HM? Wait, don't tell me, it was you all along :D
LevoeDCB22
05-10-2005, 06:02 PM
Whys this clown keep saying its not a felony if you dont stop.. Its not a felony if you dont stop for a speeding ticket in your car either, but ur probably not gonna like the treatment you get when they follow u until you do eventually stop :sleeping:
I would continue to question the information you're providing and the context your placing it in. Anyone can cut and paste from the AZ legislature's website but, I'm going to get back to my life now. I am saddened you think you're the only one who knows the law. I admit I was mistaken when I said 3 OUI's are not counted for felony. I forgot that changed.
We obviously disagree on some issues and according to alot of the other forum members I'm the idiot! I've been called worse. With sleep and counseling I'll get over it I'm sure.
It obvious there are alot of people here that depend on you to be their "boat cop". I've never heard of an officer going so far above and beyond that they'd spend their own time policing the world from the internet. Or are you working right now? Either way I hope you get some compensation for all of your insight.
I am thankful for the job you do and wish you well. I hope this summer season is good to you! Don't work too hard!
Final post for me
If you'd like to respond to the other questions or comments I had in the thread I'd appreciate it (i'll check in for a little longer) if not, I know your busy.
OLC out...
Froggystyle
05-10-2005, 06:18 PM
I would continue to question the information you're providing and the context your placing it in. Anyone can cut and paste from the AZ legislature's website but, I'm going to get back to my life now. I am saddened you think you're the only one who knows the law. I admit I was mistaken when I said 3 OUI's are not counted for felony. I forgot that changed.
We obviously disagree on some issues and according to alot of the other forum members I'm the idiot! I've been called worse. With sleep and counseling I'll get over it I'm sure.
It obvious there are alot of people here that depend on you to be their "boat cop". I've never heard of an officer going so far above and beyond that they'd spend their own time policing the world from the internet. Or are you working right now? Either way I hope you get some compensation for all of your insight.
I am thankful for the job you do and wish you well. I hope this summer season is good to you! Don't work too hard!
Final post for me
If you'd like to respond to the other questions or comments I had in the thread I'd appreciate it (i'll check in for a little longer) if not, I know your busy.
OLC out...
In a year, when you have established a reputation as an interested and helpful boater (I think you are underneath the rough exterior) you absolutely have to let us know that you started out as OLC!
Frankly, I think you care, and you have taken the time to get nearly schooled on the subjects. Though technically incorrect, you were more correct than I would have hazarded a guess. Tone it down a little and you will be fine.
There are a couple of people you don't want to cross swords with on here... Rex and Alan are two. Both contribute heavily to our community in different ways, and if you asked me who brought the sound statutes to our attention as well as impending litigation and what we could do to stop it (signatures, letters to congress etc...) the top of my list would be Rexone. Actually, my only list. Rexone made more effort than anyone I know to educate and help stop these sound restrictions from going into law.
Pick on someone else. If you need a list, PM me and I will send it to you. The list will be full of easy targets that you can rest assured you will have a minimum of a 70% appeal rating for bashing... ;)
Are you a democrat by any chance?
GHTRIM
05-10-2005, 06:24 PM
rough crowd....you better re-register under a different name. :p
LOL!!! Good one...
Final post for me
The fastest 22 second post, in the west.
:shift: :shift: :shift: :shift: :shift: :shift:
Boatcop
05-10-2005, 06:58 PM
It obvious there are alot of people here that depend on you to be their "boat cop". I've never heard of an officer going so far above and beyond that they'd spend their own time policing the world from the internet. Or are you working right now? Either way I hope you get some compensation for all of your insight.
As I wrote before, I've been doing this in one incarnation or another for 30 years. (I'm also a boater myself, although the pay doesn't allow me to merge into the Hot Boat" catagory, just yet. Priorities, ya know?) In that time I've put more than a couple of people in body bags, pulled a few more from off the bottom of the Lakes and/or River. Told a few dozen parents/wives/husbands/kids that their loved one(s) were dead, killed by a drunk or ignorant boater. Investigated somewhere around 200 boating accidents, and all the other things that go along with this job.
I subscribed to Hot Boat Magazine for several years. (In my business you have to know boats) and when I heard about this forum, I came on to see what was happening in the boating world, and maybe answer some questions and set the record straight on "River Legends", Boating law updates, rumors, and the like.
Over that time (It must be going on 5 or 6 years or so) I've made a bunch of friends, and a few enemies. I enjoy what I do. Except for the parts I described above. I come here completely on my own time (no internet access at my office) to try and educate this motley crew that hangs around, so I don't have to do those things to them or their families.
Has it helped? I'd like to think so. Even though my guys or I have arrested a few on here, cited maybe a few more, for the most part I think I've helped make Hot Boating on the River a little safer.
Some people may not like the answers I give, but what can I say? I rarely inject opinion. Just facts. I encourage those who disagree with the laws to work to change them. I don't make 'em. Nor can I choose which ones to enforce or which ones not to. I have a job to do and I do it well, and to the best of my ability.
I enjoy hanging around here, joking and playing with all the other morons here. What boater doesn't enjoy talking or reading about boats? And if I can help save just one of these idiots from themselves then, well, that's just a perk.
DogHouse
05-10-2005, 07:00 PM
Are you a democrat by any chance?
Hey pipe down, my wife is a DEM, and she is OK! Voting for me is close to useless unless I can somehow arrange for her to be "busy" on election day.
How's that for a hijack?
:D
Froggystyle
05-10-2005, 07:03 PM
Hey pipe down, my wife is a DEM, and she is OK! Voting for me is close to useless unless I can somehow arrange for her to be "busy" on election day.
How's that for a hijack?
:D
Hehe...
You just need to turn the clocks back a day for her...
DogHouse
05-10-2005, 07:03 PM
Hehe...
You just need to turn the clocks back a day for her...
Why didn't I think of that...
:D
Froggystyle
05-10-2005, 07:11 PM
Why didn't I think of that...
:D
I was in SEMA (Las Vegas) for the election, and I pre-voted before going, knowing I would be out of town. I stayed a couple of nights with a really good childhood freind of mine who after a couple of beers let me in on the fact that he was going to be voting for Kerry. :2purples:
I spent the next two days working on him trying to get him to reverse his poorly-conceived decision successfully. He was voting Dem because his mom was going to. No better reason. We looked up "facts" and such for him to refute or not to no avail.
We agreed in the end to disagree and left it at that. Finally, the eve of the election I told him that his decision was really bothering me. He asked "Why?" in a really upset manner. My answer was simple.
"You are voting for Kerry, and you have no idea why. I have a thousand well thought out and defensible reasons for my decision, and when we both go to get our votes counted, yours will cancel mine out."
He switched, and Republicans very narrowly carried Vegas.
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