Summit Protorque Starter

[Cole Sanger]

Anyone used one of these? It has two terminals. One for the battery and one for the ignition. I should have checked it before I installed it. I am pretty sure that it is bad. The ignition terminal is shorted to the case. The Summit part number is SUM-820323P.

[Oldsquirt]

The large terminal is for battery cable and the small is for the crank signal from the "S" terminal of your ignition switch. Internally that "S" terminal goes through a wound coil and then to ground on the case. If you checked "continuity" it should show that it goes to ground. That would be normal. If you measured the resistance between that terminal and ground and got "zero", that would be bad.
Does the starter not function?

[cdog]

I think that's the same one I have. I love it....Works great. I took a Wire crimp and it slides right on the ing. term. So far now problems what so ever and it sounds like a BMW when it turns over.

[Cole Sanger]

Yeah, it is blowing fuses. It doesn't even try to kick the gear out. No sound at all. I had a 15amp fuse in it and then a 20amp. Both blew pretty quick. I am going through the ignition push/pull switch and then to a push button start switch back to the small terminal on the starter. The Summit tech guy I just talked to said that it shouldn' be shorted to the case. Any ideas?

[Oldsquirt]

Yep, definitely sounds like a short. Had a friends Chevy starter do the same thing on New Years at CFW.
Just to verify, however you should disconnect that wire and see if you still blow the fuse. If it does, problem is elsewhere in the wiring.
Don't know if the base starter is Hitachi or Nippondenso, but solenoid repair kits may be available. In any case it's worth a look inside the solenoid. You just might see a repairable problem.

[Cole Sanger]

I removed the one wire and checked it out. Holds the 12v and no fuse blows. It is brand new, never even been tried. I just ordered a new one and I will return this one in the box. Just wanted to verify I wasn't overlooking something. Thanks

[Cole Sanger]

Ok, I give up. The second one came in and it is the same thing. I called Summit. The tech guy said he doesn't know too much about them, he "usually just gets installation problems". I took the new one apart and it looks like the solenoid wire is touching the case way back inside. I can't get to the wire without de-soldering the connection. I don't want to get into all that. I didn't pay $230 so I could work on it. Now I have to return both of them. I am not crazy right? This thing only has two terminals. One large one for the battery and one that is gounded to the case and is supposed to be the wire for the solenoid 12V wire. Here is the picture of the starter in question.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/643sum-820323p.jpg

[Fiat48]

I'm not sure of your situation here but I just installed the same starter with no problems. 2 terminals. One large which goes to battery positive. 1 small terminal which goes to starter button. Not sure what you are talking about "grounded to the case". If that starter solonoid wire is touching the inside of the case..then that is wrong for sure.
If your tired of "Dummit and their fabulous techs", call Jim Mayer and order an IMI. Good starter for less money. http://www.goodvibesracing.com/IMI%20Performance%20Products.htm

[Cole Sanger]

When I say grounded to the case, I mean I took the starter off the engine and put it on my wood work bench and found that the solenoid wire connection is shorted to the case. When I took the solenoid case apart, I can see down inside that one of the small soldered wires is touching the case. I can't really get to it, and can barely see it. Pretty tight in there. It's got to be the problem. I don't know about the other starter. Could be the same thing. I would like to stay with the same one, but I don't want to wait again and get a third bad one. I like the two wire deal. If I run a regular three wire one, do I have to use the third post? I only ran the battery cable and the solenoid wire when I ran the wires. Not too big of a deal, just more hassle.

[Oldsquirt]

Looks like a standard Nippondenso or Hitachi unit that has been chromed or polished. I wonder if something was done wrong during reassembly?
Have you bench tested the starter? Just connect jumper cables to the case and the big B+ terminal. Then use a short jumper wire to go from the B+ to the small trigger terminal. This eliminates any possible wiring faults in the boat.
For my own curiousity, could you measure the resistance between the trigger terminal and the case?

[Oldsquirt]

......If I run a regular three wire one, do I have to use the third post?
Only needed if you are running a points ignition. That 3rd terminal is for the "ballast bypass" circuit.

[Cole Sanger]

From the trigger to the case it is absolute 0 ohms. I just can't believe that they are both dead on arrival. Sucks. I don't want to take a chance with a third.

[Oldsquirt]

I wish I were going to be at work tomorrow(Toyota tech). I'd pull one of our cores apart to look, but I'm willing to bet there should be some sort of insulator between the case and the solenoid windings. Maybe If I get a chance, I'll swing by and check for you. Actually, you've just got me really curious..... :D

[058]

Perhaps there is a jumper to bypass the solenoid. Some Ford starters have this jumper to be used with a remote solenoid thats usually mounted to the inner fender panel. I think its strange there would be two bad starters back to back. Craig...You REALLY wish you were going to be at work???? :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :D

[Cole Sanger]

I can take it apart and take a couple of pictures later today. The windings are just suspended away from the case, but the wire that goes from the outside of the case down into the case to the windings is not shielded and it looks like it is touching the case. I think that you were right OldSquirt. I think they either are not reassembling them right, or possibly leaving out a plastic shield of some type. I almost want to take apart the solenoid and slide a plastic shield in. That's not what I paid for though, so I am going to send them both back and get something else. What I am thinking about getting is the same starter, only the non-chrome one that is recommended for up to 18:1 compression. My engine is 12.5:1, so I think that starter would turn it with relative ease.

[PE 316]

ColeSanger,
IF you end up going with a different starter (and don't want to drop the BIG $$ for a Tilton)...
I can highly recommend the "Powermaster" brand High-Torque Mini Starter.
Here's the poop:
HIGHEST TORQUE (200 ft-lb.)
Most Efficient
No Heat Soak Problems
Clears All Headers
Clears Oil Pans Where OE Starter Will Work
Billet Aluminum Adapter Block
4.4:1 Gear Reduction Ratio
Cranking Power For up to 18:1 Compression
Mounting Bolts Included
Dyno Test Results Included
Weight: 8.0 lbs.
Part# 9502 - Chevy - 153 Tooth Flywheel
Part# 9500 - Chevy - 168 Tooth Flywheel
Powermaster Starters (and alternators) (http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/200_ft_-lb__starters.html)
I bought mine from "Vic Hubbard's Speed & Marine" in Hayward, CA for $204.00

[Cole Sanger]

I just don't get it. The third starter came in. It was not chrome plated like the first two. It is shorted from the solenoid to the case. I still had the first one in the boat just laying on my stringer (rail kit). I decided to say screw it. If this is how they are supposed to be then I am going to burn this one up before I send it back. I put in a 30 amp fuse. I kick it over and what do you know, it kicks the solenoid out and kicks over the starter. So I sand down the freshly painted block where the starter mounts. Works perfect. I am glad it works, but I am not real sure why it works. Why would you want to send 12Vdc through the block? If your distributor components weren't isolated, you could burn them up. Not to mention anything else that doesn't get isolated very well. Like a fuel pump, or MSD ignition box, etc. I am guessing that no one else on here knew that the solenoid hot wire should be shorted to the starter case.

[Oldsquirt]

Cole, I just happened to pull one apart today at work. Ours are Nippondenso. Not sure if that is what the Summit one is based on or if it is a Hitachi. I couldn't find the wire you were referring to as going to ground.
Something you need to remember is that the solenoid is comprised of two separate coil windings. One is the "pull-in" coil and the other is the "hold-in". The pull-in is connected at one end to the solenoid "S" terminal and at the other end it is grounded to the case. It gets B+ by way of your starter switch. The hold-in coil is connected to the terminal of the solenoid that goes to the starter's motor and and to the "S" terminal. So, yes, you should show continuity between the "S" terminal and the starter case. If not, the solenoid would never function and, in turn, neither would the starter motor. It should not be "shorted" to ground, but the windings are big and may actually show as "0" ohms. I will measure the resistance of a good starter, between "S" and case, tomorrow.
Since the first starter(or was it the first two?) was causing a fuse to blow, there is definitely something wrong inside that solenoid.

[Rexone]

I just don't get it. The third starter came in. It was not chrome plated like the first two. It is shorted from the solenoid to the case. I still had the first one in the boat just laying on my stringer (rail kit). I decided to say screw it. If this is how they are supposed to be then I am going to burn this one up before I send it back. I put in a 30 amp fuse. I kick it over and what do you know, it kicks the solenoid out and kicks over the starter. So I sand down the freshly painted block where the starter mounts. Works perfect. I am glad it works, but I am not real sure why it works. Why would you want to send 12Vdc through the block? If your distributor components weren't isolated, you could burn them up. Not to mention anything else that doesn't get isolated very well. Like a fuel pump, or MSD ignition box, etc. I am guessing that no one else on here knew that the solenoid hot wire should be shorted to the starter case.
I'm gonna take a guess here that your hot wire shorted to the case runs through a coil that activates a function of the solenoid when energized. These coils are nothing more than electromagnets. Remember starters must be grounded well to the block as that is how they complete their circuit. If the coil is part of that circuit it makes since you'd see zero resistance on that wire. The fact that you removed the fresh paint and it now works leads me to believe that was preventing it from working initially (I just posted on the paint issue in another thread dealing with alternators recently). Paint and/or oily starter bolts can prevent a starter from working properly because it prevents them getting a good ground. Think about it. When you bench test a starter you have to ground the case. Same when installed.
We use IMI exclusively and I don't ever recall a problem of the nature you describe, in fact we never have problems with them at all. But all these starters are wired relatively similar and operate relatively similar.

[Rexone]

You got my curiosity up so I went out and pulled a brand new IMI Marine off the shelf and ohm tested it. It's exactly how you describe yours, the small terminal goes to ground in the case (0 ohms).
I think your problem was the paint or the simple fact that the wire to ground on the case threw up a red flag that wasn't actually a problem.
As far as the fuses blowing my guess is that the paint caused so much resistance it took more amperage than the fuse to handle to attempt to complete the circuit to the bad ground so it popped the fuse and the starter never even tried to actuate because of it.

[Kindsvater Flat]

I think your problem was the paint.
shhhhhh............don't tell summit.
:D:D:D:D

[Rexone]

shhhhhh............don't tell summit.
:D:D:D:D
Summit hell, what about Cole Sanger? :eek:

[Oldsquirt]

Guys, have you forgotten about Ohm's Law? While I certainly can see the paint on the block interfering with proper starter operation, it should not have caused the fuse to blow.
Current = Voltage divided by Resistance. (I=V/R)
The paint on the block would have increased the resistance in the pull-in circuit of the magnetic switch(correct term for the generically, and incorrectly, applied "solenoid" term regarding this type of starter :D ). Circuit voltage would be constant at whatever battery voltage is. The increased resistance from the paint would result in a decrease in current flow. This would not blow the fuse. You would pretty much need a dead short for that.
I checked one of our new starters and it 0.3 ohms resistance between the "S" terminal and the case.

[Fiat48]

I do know about Murphy's law and I think so does Cole Sanger. :D

[Floored]

I've never fused the wire from the ignition to the starter. run min 10 ga wire and hit it.

[Cole Sanger]

Everyone is right. The paint was probably what was killing the fuse. I only went up to a 20amp fuse on that circuit. Putting in the 30amp fuse and having the case grounded to the rail is what made it work. I haven't tried it, but I would like to see what the block read when the starter solenoid was engaged. I am going to quit asking myself why this works and just get the thing in the water. I got the last fuel line on last night, so it should be just about good to go. Now if I could just get the fricking spark plug wires together. They are kicking my butt. Anyone have a secret to those? I have a pretty good crimper, but can't seem to get the crimped connector into the boot all the way. They are Taylor wires. Anyway, thanks for all of the info on the starter.

[Oldsquirt]

The paint was probably what was killing the fuse. I only went up to a 20amp fuse on that circuit. Putting in the 30amp fuse and having the case grounded to the rail is what made it work..
Crap! Should have asked what size fuse you were blowing. The magnetic switch(aka solenoid) portion of those starters typically draws between 30 and 35 amps. Every vehicle I looked up has at least a 40 amp fuse protecting that circuit. Your 20 amp fuse never had a chance, paint or no paint. If you blewthe fuse, the starter had a ggod enough ground for at least that circuit.

[Rexone]

Now if I could just get the fricking spark plug wires together. They are kicking my butt. Anyone have a secret to those? I have a pretty good crimper, but can't seem to get the crimped connector into the boot all the way. They are Taylor wires. Anyway, thanks for all of the info on the starter.
Get some dielectric grease or a can of silicone spray from the parts house. Makes getting subborn wires / boots together a breeze so you don't tear up the wires pulling hard on them.

[Cole Sanger]

Thanks everyone. I asked a while back about fuses. Not too many replies. 15amp was said to be ok. Live and learn. Anyway, thanks again. I will try the grease. I had a little on there, seems pretty tight though.

[INEEDAV]

Thanks everyone. I asked a while back about fuses. Not too many replies. 15amp was said to be ok. Live and learn. Anyway, thanks again. I will try the grease. I had a little on there, seems pretty tight though.
A 30A fuse is not a good idea if the wire is smaller than 10ga.
What gauge is the wire to the switch and back to the starter? Also what is the voltage at the small terminal of the starter when you engage it? Connect one lead to the small terminal and one to the engine to see what the voltage is.
You might want to hook a multimeter to both sides of the ignition switch and check the voltage drop across the switch while you crank it over. If your switch is under rated for the starter it could be helping your problem out.
So I did not have to run 10ga. wire all the way around the boat I opted to use a relay mounted near the starter that I control from the starter switch. This allowed me to use a couple of short pieces of 10ga, fused of course, from the battery through the relay, solenoid, and then back to the battery. Never had a problem with it like this.