dist problems?

[shaun]

My sisters bf has a 460 ford in his boat. The motor is brand new, was a long block from kragen. He and one of his buddy's installed it last week and i came over and helped him install the dist and time it. The first problem i saw/came across was that the distributor did not want to really seat all the way into the block with out alittle bit of force. I ran my finger on the inside of the block where the dist slides in and found my finger with a oily blue color on it. So i figure kragen maybe over sprayed into that hole and maybe that was causing it. We got it timed, it fired right up. this weekend my sister and him went down to parker (lapaz i believe was the same of the place) and me, my son, and my gf went. After a few other problems where cleaned up we finally though it was running good, i took it up river, then back down, then headed back to the ramp (it was getting dark) and on the way back cruising at about 3500 rpms it just cut out... So since it's now dark the fireman/rescue boat comes asking us were out lights are... told them that we broke down they didn't seam like they really wanted to help us. I tell them that were at the launch ramp that's about 100 yards up river and they say OK and start heading to shore.. So we get to shore and they just leave us there, now what pissed me off was that there was another dock only about 30 yards up river that they could have just left us at and i could have ran and got the trunk. Nope, instead they leave us where we have to drag the boat up river, and under peoples lines.. Even worse, i asked them if they could at least give me a ride to that other ramp, they laugh at me and take off. All and all I'm grateful they at least towed us to shore but out of all the years i went to the river as a kid with my family and breaking down i never ran into anything like this. People usually help each other in a time like this, guess things have changed.
Anyway enough ranting.. after getting a ride from another camper to the trunk we pull it out and start to diagnose the problem. In the end we don't that the dist is not spinning, it acts like it whats to but doesn't. I pulled the dist and the gear is still on it and look to be fine. i check and the cam is spinning. I can spine the dist fine with it out and when i put it in i cannot spine it obviously because it's meshed with the cam. But as soon as we try to turn it over it just doesn't spin. The motor turns over fine which has me worried. If the gears are meshed then ether the cam is not spinning or the gear on the dist is slipping. I tried to turn the gear by hand but it feels tight. The pin is still through the gear but I'm wondering if it sheared off. Any of you guys know what might be happening here? His old block was a 460 also, and this is a MSD pro billet dist.

[Kindsvater Flat]

Not uncommon for a ford to shear the roll pin on the dist gear

[GofastRacer]

Yep, lay odds that the pin is sheared!..

[Moneypitt]

If I recall, that gear/pin also spins the oil pump. Fords are known for twisting the hex drive up like a pritzel..........MP

[GofastRacer]

Yep they're only good on a stocker, anything else you need an aftermarket one!...

[LakesOnly]

My sisters bf has a 460 ford in his boat. The motor is brand new, was a long block from kragen. He and one of his buddy's installed it last week and i came over and helped him install the dist and time it. The first problem i saw/came across was that the distributor did not want to really seat all the way into the block with out alittle bit of force. I ran my finger on the inside of the block where the dist slides in and found my finger with a oily blue color on it. So i figure kragen maybe over sprayed into that hole and maybe that was causing it. We got it timed, it fired right up. this weekend my sister and him went down to parker (lapaz i believe was the same of the place) and me, my son, and my gf went. After a few other problems where cleaned up we finally though it was running good, i took it up river, then back down, then headed back to the ramp (it was getting dark) and on the way back cruising at about 3500 rpms it just cut out... So since it's now dark the fireman/rescue boat comes asking us were out lights are... told them that we broke down they didn't seam like they really wanted to help us. I tell them that were at the launch ramp that's about 100 yards up river and they say OK and start heading to shore.. So we get to shore and they just leave us there, now what pissed me off was that there was another dock only about 30 yards up river that they could have just left us at and i could have ran and got the trunk. Nope, instead they leave us where we have to drag the boat up river, and under peoples lines.. Even worse, i asked them if they could at least give me a ride to that other ramp, they laugh at me and take off. All and all I'm grateful they at least towed us to shore but out of all the years i went to the river as a kid with my family and breaking down i never ran into anything like this. People usually help each other in a time like this, guess things have changed.
Anyway enough ranting.. after getting a ride from another camper to the trunk we pull it out and start to diagnose the problem. In the end we don't that the dist is not spinning, it acts like it whats to but doesn't. I pulled the dist and the gear is still on it and look to be fine. i check and the cam is spinning. I can spine the dist fine with it out and when i put it in i cannot spine it obviously because it's meshed with the cam. But as soon as we try to turn it over it just doesn't spin. The motor turns over fine which has me worried. If the gears are meshed then ether the cam is not spinning or the gear on the dist is slipping. I tried to turn the gear by hand but it feels tight. The pin is still through the gear but I'm wondering if it sheared off. Any of you guys know what might be happening here? His old block was a 460 also, and this is a MSD pro billet dist.
The underside of the 429/460 distributor shaft has a female hexagonal receiver hole. This hole accomodates the oil pump drive shaft (oil pump drive shaft inserts into the bottom of the dizzy shaft) and then the dizzy drives the oil pump. The reason your dizzy would not drop right in is because although the teeth had meshed with the teeth on the cam, the hexagonal oil pump shaft was not aligned (rotationally) with the receiver hole on the dizzy. So, once the gear of the dizzy is partially meshed with the gear of the cam, you can turn the crank by hand or bump the ignition. This turns the dizzy (since it is partially meshed with the cam) which then spins/aligns the female hole in the bottom of the dizzy shaft with the male hexagonal oil pump shaft, and the distributor will drop fully into place. If your distributor is not fully seated, then it may pop out and stop spinning. Bigger problem is that you may not be driving your oil pump under these circumstances, so be sure to properly install your distributor.
Once installed, crank the engine with the distributor cap off and witness the rotor spining. Then check for spark, etc.
In regards to the RESCUE boat guys presumptuously giving you crap about not having lights on your boat rather than asking if you were okay, and then laughing at you when you needed further assistance, and assuming they didn't have an emergency to rush to, I would have gotten their ID's and write a formal complaint with their names/behavior and send it to their superior, the county sherriff, every member of the county board of supervisors, mayor of the nearest city, etc. But that's just my take on civil servants not doing their job...
If you need more help with the 460, just post again.
LO

[LakesOnly]

GFR/K-Flat:
Good point about a sheared pin. On another note about Fords shearing pins, I want to point out why this really happens and that this will not be a typical problem if people build these motors right.
There is a distributor shaft end play spec of .020" and an installed clearance spec of less than .010" between the bottom of the dizzy gear and the block's dizzy gear thrust boss (the pad that the dizzy gear rides on once the distributor is installed). Few people understand Ford's reasoning behind the obscure specification and therefore dismiss it. Ask any engine builder what this spec is for and 9 out of 10 don't have a clue.
The reason for these spec is because as the distributor is turned by the cam gear, it is thrust downward against the dizzy's thrust boss in the block. If the shaft end play and boss clearance are out of spec (too much boss clearance/not enough end play), the dizzy gear does not ride on the boss but instead is floating in mid air all the while being thrust downward by the turning of the gear.
Eventually, the dizzy gear roll pin shears downward because the spec's were not set by properly measuring/installing the dizzy gear and/or shimming the underside of the dizzy gear to take up the slack between the boss and gear. Here is the spc, pleae read:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/350460distgearspecs.jpg
To say that the Ford engines randomly shear pins rotationally is a fallacy which is assumed by those that are not familiar with the detailed workings and necessary specifications of these engines. Their fix is usually to drill oversize and put in a bigger pin though the gear. :rolleyes: The joke about such an approach is that this is a band-aid fix that may or may not end the pin shearing, because the root of the problem has not been corrected.
Here is a picture of the dizzy gear boss in the block:
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/350DizGrJet9A.jpg
If you look in the mirror's reflection in the above photo, you will see just the lightest wear (from the bottom of the dizzy gear) against the top of the boss. This is exactly how the wear pattern should look. If you have more wear, the block gets chewed up; if you have NO wear, the gear is floating and you are shearing pins.
(Photo was taken for an altogether different purpose but works for this post...sorry about the grime.)
LO

[LakesOnly]

If I recall, that gear/pin also spins the oil pump. Fords are known for twisting the hex drive up like a pritzel..........MP
Yep they're only good on a stocker, anything else you need an aftermarket one!...
The Melling hi-volume oil pumps are shipped with a hardened shaft; Melling stock specification pumps are not. When you use the hi-volume pump, use the shaft that came with it. ;)
LO

[GofastRacer]

The Melling hi-volume oil pumps are shipped with a hardened shaft; Melling stock specification pumps are not. When you use the hi-volume pump, use the shaft that came with it. ;)
LO
Yep they do, I don't care for high volume pumps so I used to just buy an aftermarket drive!.. :wink:

[shaun]

The underside of the 429/460 distributor shaft has a female hexagonal receiver hole. This hole accomodates the oil pump drive shaft (oil pump drive shaft inserts into the bottom of the dizzy shaft) and then the dizzy drives the oil pump. The reason your dizzy would not drop right in is because although the teeth had meshed with the teeth on the cam, the hexagonal oil pump shaft was not aligned (rotationally) with the receiver hole on the dizzy. So, once the gear of the dizzy is partially meshed with the gear of the cam, you can turn the crank by hand or bump the ignition. This turns the dizzy (since it is partially meshed with the cam) which then spins/aligns the female hole in the bottom of the dizzy shaft with the male hexagonal oil pump shaft, and the distributor will drop fully into place. If your distributor is not fully seated, then it may pop out and stop spinning. Bigger problem is that you may not be driving your oil pump under these circumstances, so be sure to properly install your distributor.
Once installed, crank the engine with the distributor cap off and witness the rotor spining. Then check for spark, etc.
In regards to the RESCUE boat guys presumptuously giving you crap about not having lights on your boat rather than asking if you were okay, and then laughing at you when you needed further assistance, and assuming they didn't have an emergency to rush to, I would have gotten their ID's and write a formal complaint with their names/behavior and send it to their superior, the county sherriff, every member of the county board of supervisors, mayor of the nearest city, etc. But that's just my take on civil servants not doing their job...
If you need more help with the 460, just post again.
LO
Dont think thats the problem, the dist only had about 1/8" before it would fully seat and i would assume more than just 1/8" of the dist goes over the oil pump shaft. I also blimped the motor a few times trying to see if it was binding.

[shaun]

Searing the pin off is what i though might have happened but i took a some channel locks and a rag and grabed the gear and trying to spin it while holding the shaft in place. End result was i couldnt but i suppose i might not have been able to put enough pressure on it.
As for the clearance post from lakeonly, i was also thinking that might be the problem. I can see where the gear would sit and i was wondering if the gear was too low. turning the motor over i saw that it pulled the dist down alittle bit. If i pull off the timing/water cover dilio (name?) will i be able to check clearance?
I'm going to see if i can pull pop the pin out and see if it's intact i guess.

[PETEROC]

We just sheared our 460 Ford dist. gear pin this weekend! It's a Crane roller cam and special steel gear, really wore the teeth on dist. gear too so we will need to buy another gear) Anyway our dist. gear looks like it has been rubbing too much on the block boss. How does one shim it up to raise it slightly to decrease pressure on the boss? Do you shim under the gear or under the dist. flange where is enters and rests on the block. Where do you get the shims. Lastly, does the worn gear teeth mean dropping the pan or are the metal particles so fine it does not matter and filter will catch it thanks

[LakesOnly]

We just sheared our 460 Ford dist. gear! It's a Crane roller cam and special steel gear, really wore the teeth on dist. gear too so we will need to buy another gear. Our dist. gear looks like it has been rubbing too much on the block boss. How does one shim it up to raise it slightly to decrease pressure on the boss? PeterOC,
We do not place a shim below the gear to decrease pressure on the block boss, and based on what you have posted, it does not sound to me as though you need to shim your distributor to correct your primary problem. If you re-read my post above, you will see that we shim the gear only if it si floating/there is too much clearance between the drive gear and block boss (to take up slack). If you read my post above, you will see that the distributor is thrust downard toward the block's dizzy thrust boss. So shimming that area will only increase the load on the thrust surface, which is not what you want to do.
I strongly suspect that the reason your block is getting chewed up is because you have installed an aftermarket distributor drive gear onto the distributor shaft, and I'll bet that when you did this you simply drove a roll pin through the new gear and shaft and called it good...assuming the the locating hole on the aftermarket distributor gear was in the correct location. Am I right? Well, I'll bet the new aftermarket distributor gear's roll pin hole is NOT in the correct location on the shaft! Don't assume a part is good just because it is new.
In order to stop your distributor from further chewing up your block, you need to drive out the roll pin, remove the gear, press on the new gear BUT do not drive the pin in yet! At this point, you need to take some measurments as outlined on the print at the bottom of this post (and also added to my post above). After taking the measurements that are called out in the drawing below, you will likely have to disregard the existing locating hole on that new distributor drive gear and instead drill a new hole through the aftermarket gear in order to get the dimensions into spec. Once the dimensions are correct, you will not shear pins and you will not chew up your block any more.
(Now, depending on how much you have chewed up the block already, you very well might have to add a shim under the dizzy shaft gear in order to make up for the clearance that was created by the block getting chewed up. You may also carefully measure and then relocate the new gear further down the shaft in order to compensate for this, or you may also repair the block.)
Finally, you Crane Roller cam probably calls out for a bronze distributor gear and not a steel one, as you noted in your post.
Read carefully:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/350460distgearspecs.jpg
LO

[PETEROC]

Lakesonly, You are correct! We put in a Mallory Unilite with new gear in same location. The gear was a Crane part # 52971-1 which I thought was compatible with their roller cams. I will now put a bronze gear on and position it as you instructed. My dist. thrust boss is not too chewed up, but you can see where it has been rubbing pretty good, also the bottom of the gear is worn too. Thanks for your informative post. I will get this right! BTW, like your FORD website. Especially the Ford/Chevy comparison info. I needed that !

[rrrr]

When I rebuilt my 427FE I paid lots of attention to this issue. Beeg hardened pump drive shaft ( :eek: ) and some careful measuring.
Funny how them Fords blow up when the oil pump quits..... :crossx: :D :D