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ULTRA28
06-07-2001, 08:43 PM
This is my first time actually starting a new topic. I just got back from Havasu a few hours ago from the Hot Boat evaluation I was telling you about a few weeks ago, the one dedicated to jet boats. Hot Boat went way out of their way to do this test after I complained to them about how you guys (and myself) feel that they don't do enough about jet boats. They gave us (the manufacturers)plenty of notice to this test. Everybody was invited and most said they would show up, but when it came time to test only six boats showed up(two of which were mine). Some of the biggest names in hot boating didn't bother coming. It goes to show that many builders today just don't think that jet boats are important anymore. I just thought I would share this with you so you don't think it is all Hot Boats fault for not doing enough on jets, they are trying.

fat rat
06-08-2001, 03:49 AM
With out letting the cat outta the bag...but were they all factory rigged boats or was there some by local SoCal Hot Boat shops?

ULTRA28
06-08-2001, 07:37 AM
All boats were factory rigged. None of the names your expecting showed up and two of the companies sent old (like three years)customer boats. There were no hot rod type jets, like you might expect, just family style 21's. Kind of disapointing huh.

Cas42
06-08-2001, 08:20 AM
my how times have changed! Why do you think some of the others were no shows? Is there not enough profit in the smaller jet boats? Not a big enough demand?
Correct me if my thinking is off but wouldn't there be a bigger demand if the manufacturers pushed them a little more? Perhaps one manufacturer come up with a more affordable entry type jet boat? If one company did it would others follow?
I did some work for a golf equipment company that was lacking the funds to compete with the big boys. 3 years ago, they changed their strategy and went after entry level golfers and juniors with quality club sets that were reasonably priced. They were complete sets of clubs including bag starting at $79.95 for juniors and up to $329.95 for adult entry level golfers.
I know there's a big difference between spending $350.00 and $25,000.00 but the mentality is still the same.

Slick
06-08-2001, 08:21 AM
Mr. John West,
Maybe this is a sign for Ultra Boats. Seams to me that a rather inexpensive line with good quality, like the Lightning you've introduced, is just what the industry needs. I bet if you folks at Ultra put your heads together you could take over the industry with jet boat sales. Good luck and thank you for all of your advice.
Slick

rstover1
06-08-2001, 09:19 AM
Bravo to Ultra just for doing what they do. The demand is out there jet boats are the hot rods of the new millinum. Big car makers were sceptical about building affordable muscle cars in the late 50s and early 60s but once they started look how that took off.The trick would be to offer options to the buyer.I one took two friends to the lake whom had no intrest in boats after an 8 hour day on the water in my jet they were hooked they now own an 18ft sleekcraft JET!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by rstover1 (edited June 08, 2001).]

froggystyle
06-08-2001, 09:55 AM
The funniest thing about this situation is that it is a lot easier to buy a new boat than a used one! I am going to have a hard time getting 18K for a cherry Daytona because the banks will not loan you crap for it. I need to find someone with 18K in the bank. You would think that other companies would care enough to put a mid 20K nice boat on the market. They don't though. Financing for 15 years on 22K is not a whole lot, especially if you have any money to put down on it. It's a whole lot less money than priming your blown hydro with $100 bills, that's for sure. John has his act together, and his professionalism in these forums and dedication to the genre played no small part in my purchase of a new boat from Ultra. I hope they do bury the others. Better product, better company.

gstark
06-08-2001, 11:11 AM
Ultra28:
I was at Blythe a couple of weekends ago and spoke with a gent with a new Ultra 21'. He was fairly pleased with it, except he had one concern which alarmed me. He had a setback Dominator pump and said that the factory told him he was supposed to run his bilge pump whenever the boat was in the water. Is this correct, and if so, why?

ULTRA28
06-08-2001, 12:47 PM
We always suggest turning on the bilge anytime any of our boats are put in hte water. All Ultras come standard with auto bilge pumps. All jets may leak, setback pumps are much more likely to leak. Every Ultra that leaves our factory has been water tested and does not leak. Setback pumps may begin to leak at anytime. A setback pump is not actually designed by the pump manufacturer, it is something we do here, the plates are custom made for each boat and siliconed on. The torque produced by the motor as well as the possibility of hitting some sandbars may make the plates leak. We feel it is better to be safe than sorry, so we always tell our customers to turn on the auto bilge anytime they put the boat in the water.

spectras only
06-08-2001, 02:02 PM
Hats off to John for participating this forum, as for a businessman I wonder how he manages to find time to interact with everyone on a one on one bases at this forum.Hope he's going to have a monopoly with jetboat sales,since I feel most others gearing towards sterndrives [hence they require a lot more maintenance than jets]that sounds to me like a makework project plan.

dcraig
06-08-2001, 02:23 PM
Hats off to John as well. Not many owners take the time out of their busy schedule to help out existing boat owners.
I think Ultra basically has the largest jet boat sales of any mfg in california. Some others do sell a decent number of jets but most mfg's push their Merc. product lines more.
From what I've seen, Ultra knows more about how to set up a jet drive installation better than most other companies out there.

EDROE
06-08-2001, 04:51 PM
Hey Froggy, your right about the interest on a new boat I could almost buy another boat with what theyre charging in interest alone. To John I also what to thank you for your time. If I had known about this forum a mounth ago I might have been an Ultra owner today. Not that I dont appreciate my Advantage but, you always what the best quality you can afford.

Joey
06-08-2001, 09:06 PM
ey Originally posted by ULTRA28:
We always suggest turning on the bilge anytime any of our boats are put in hte water. All Ultras come standard with auto bilge pumps. All jets may leak, setback pumps are much more likely to leak. Every Ultra that leaves our factory has been water tested and does not leak. Setback pumps may begin to leak at anytime. A setback pump is not actually designed by the pump manufacturer, it is something we do here, the plates are custom made for each boat and siliconed on. The torque produced by the motor as well as the possibility of hitting some sandbars may make the plates leak. We feel it is better to be safe than sorry, so we always tell our customers to turn on the auto bilge anytime they put the boat in the water.
Does tyhis apply to all set back pumps? I have a 77 Spectra with a set back. It does n't seem to take on much water (at least my bilge pump doesn't seem to want to run.

beached1
06-08-2001, 10:22 PM
Could it be that perhaps there isn't as much profit to be made in most jet boats? It seems that most of the big custom boat manufacturers are more interested in selling the big twin i/o monsters rather than the smaller jets. Perhaps the smaller jet boats are getting beat in sales by the runabouts built by Sea Doo and Yamaha and therfore the manufacturers of customs are losing interest. Just like the auto industry in the 70's. The American auto makers were reluctant to build small compact cars because there wasn't as much profit made on such vehicles compared to the larger ones. This allowed the Japanese makers to get a hold of some market share in compact vehicles and light trucks. I personally think that Ultra was smart in offering an entry level line of boats under the name Lightning. People that buy a Lightning today might want to step up to something a liitle more expensive in the future. There is a good chance they will come back to Lightning or Ultra for that new boat. I know they will be my first stop when the time comes for me to get a new one.

froggystyle
06-08-2001, 10:30 PM
I don't think any of them are supposed to leak, it is just that the transom adapter becomes non-existant. They machine an aluminum plate around the pump body (not the nice even round part, but rather the oddly shaped part with ribs and stuff) that fills the gap between the pump and the cutout in the hull. This is still pretty uneven, even with precision machining and takes around 1/2 inch of silicone in places, sometimes even more. With all of the boogying around the hull and transom do in relation to the pump, leaks are not uncommon. You seem to have just dodged the bullet for now. The good news is you are just a tube of RTV away from fixing one of these leaks should they occur. Berkeley and Eliminator got in bed a while back and created a transom adapter for the Daytonas called unremarkably "The Eliminator". I have one on my Daytona, and it is basically a 10" deep transom adapter. The bummer with it, is that with the machined plate, you can change the bowl/impeller very easily between races, or pull the rope out of your impeller between beers. Mine is renedered damn near impossible to access. It is two feet back in the hull, and about 2 inches under a large piece of aluminum. Oh well, give and take. I haven't needed it yet (knock on wood)

ULTRA28
06-10-2001, 11:52 AM
I'm not saying that all jets or set back jets leak, for liability reasons we tell all customers, jet and stern drives, to turn on the auto bilge anytime the boat is in the water, the bilge pump automatically checks for water every five minutes and then pumps out any water it senses. It's better to be safe than sorry.

froggystyle
06-10-2001, 02:58 PM
Word

gstark
06-11-2001, 04:37 AM
Ultra28
Thx for clearing that up. Had I known that the owner had an auto bilge pump, I would never have posted the question. He did make it appear that a non-auto bilge pump was in use. My apologies.
Much thx for your support of jets. I have a new Caliber 1 230 Velocity. Love it, but Cliff has no interest in pumps anymore. Too much of a nuisance I guess.

fat rat
06-11-2001, 04:38 PM
Hey John, first thanx for being an active member of this forum, second I looked at 01 Ultra, your 19' Tunnel, aaawsome boat....it just wasn't big enough, and I had to have a 21' tunnel....needed something with a little more leg room....getting older you know. Keep up the good work and maybe stretch that 19 another couple feet.

froggystyle
06-13-2001, 08:29 PM
You should ask Greg Shoemaker why he didn't do a Jet Tech section in this months mag.
[This message has been edited by froggystyle (edited June 13, 2001).]

ULTRA28
06-13-2001, 10:02 PM
Actually Fat Rat, we are in the process of coming up with our concept drawings and blueprints for our 22' cat that will have a second deck mold to make it a deck boat. I want it to look like a normal boat instead of big and boxy like most of whats out there. I also wnat it to be able to be powered by a jet and be able to get good numbers out of it.

lostlake
06-14-2001, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by ULTRA28:
Actually Fat Rat, we are in the process of coming up with our concept drawings and blueprints for our 22' cat that will have a second deck mold to make it a deck boat. I want it to look like a normal boat instead of big and boxy like most of whats out there. I also wnat it to be able to be powered by a jet and be able to get good numbers out of it.
Hey ultra... That's not fair, all this time I've been waiting for someone to produce a sleek fast jet deck boat, and I finally found one from Shoemaker, the Tomm papp mold. So i put a deposit on it last week, and now your telling all of us you guys have one in the works Wassssssss Up with that, I guess i jumped too soon.. Hey another thing how do i relpy to this forum without having the orignal quote show up.. Thanks for the info. Jeff

lostlake
06-14-2001, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by ULTRA28:
Actually Fat Rat, we are in the process of coming up with our concept drawings and blueprints for our 22' cat that will have a second deck mold to make it a deck boat. I want it to look like a normal boat instead of big and boxy like most of whats out there. I also wnat it to be able to be powered by a jet and be able to get good numbers out of it.
Hey ultra... That's not fair, all this time I've been waiting for someone to produce a sleek fast jet deck boat, and I finally found one from Shoemaker, the Tomm papp mold. So i put a deposit on it last week, and now your telling all of us you guys have one in the works Wassssssss Up with that, I guess i jumped too soon.. Hey another thing how do i relpy to this forum without having the orignal quote show up.. Thanks for the info. Jeff

fat rat
06-14-2001, 04:31 AM
Ultra, I can't wait to see it...when do expect to put it in production?

Timer
06-14-2001, 05:06 AM
Guys, what's a "deck" boat? I keep seeing that term on this board. Is it just not an open bow? Thanks.

lostlake
06-14-2001, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by froggystyle:
You should ask Greg Shoemaker why he didn't do a Jet Tech section in this months mag.
[This message has been edited by froggystyle (edited June 13, 2001).]
Hey froggystyle, I'm looking in the June Hot boat and on page 20 there is jet tech, are you talking about a newer issue ???

SB
06-14-2001, 06:55 AM
A deck boat has a big deck like a pontoon, but has a regular hull.
Hey Ultra,
1. 22' cat is interesting. How will it compare to Placecraft 22' cat, and Advantage 22' party cat? The advantage didn't work too well with jet, they couldn't get it over 48 mph no matter how much power they used.
2. Sorry to hear that nobody showed up for Hot Boat jet test, I really look forward to that issue. I read HB because it covers jets. Hats off for creating Lightning. I suppose the ultimate (not the boat) fear, is that you and the other builders will call Merc for a jet with outboard engine for all your small boats. They have one with with 240hp, it can't be long before it's 300hp., then what?
3. Trailer Boats June 2001 p.42 has an article on automatic trim tabs, $120. Nothing amazing in there, but article states that it helps low speed deep V wander. So why aren't more jets running trim tabs. We all want the ride of a bigger boat without the bulk. V- drives use massive tab. Could trim tabs be hooked to steering to help jet turn? Has anybody tried this?

dcraig
06-14-2001, 08:43 AM
I hope you are able to complete the 22' Cat. There is really nothing out there for a jet in this configuration that has any reasonable interior room. Larger cats are available with a stern drive but it would be really nice to see a boat like this that can run a jet drive and have solid performance.
Keep me updated on your progress. This is the boat I might be looking for in the future. Will the closed bow have any room under the bow for storage or be big enough for a quick nap?

froggystyle
06-14-2001, 09:53 AM
Lostlake, just go to the top or bottom of the entries, and find "post reply". That gives you your own entry.

Chestah Cheetah
06-14-2001, 10:40 AM
As SB mentioned above, the Advantage didn't fair too well but I have seen the Placecraft in action and it was a JET. If I remember correctly he said it had a 468 that put out 950 HP with 103MPH on radar. So far it is by far the best looking deck boat I've seen, and I'm really looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with Ultra.

lostlake
06-14-2001, 02:41 PM
Have any of you checked out the deck boat that GS (Greg Shoemaker) is putting together, THe mold is owned by Tomm Papp, It looks like a 21 daytona hull, its actually 21'3, with a deck on top, I tested one the other day with a stock 502, legend set back pump, it seats 3 across the rear easily, 2 in the bolster seats, and 4 or more up front, we only had 2 in the boat with the 502 mag, and were doing a solid 60 @ 4800 and a great ride.. We came up on a skier slowed down to 40 and walked over the wakes, I ordered one already and hope to have it before summer is over. I'll scan a piture when it gets out of the mold... Can't wait... and thanks for the info on the proper way to reply... Jeff

lostlake
06-14-2001, 02:42 PM
Have any of you checked out the deck boat that GS (Greg Shoemaker) is putting together, THe mold is owned by Tomm Papp, It looks like a 21 daytona hull, its actually 21'3, with a deck on top, I tested one the other day with a stock 502, legend set back pump, it seats 3 across the rear easily, 2 in the bolster seats, and 4 or more up front, we only had 2 in the boat with the 502 mag, and were doing a solid 60 @ 4800 and a great ride.. We came up on a skier slowed down to 40 and walked over the wakes, I ordered one already and hope to have it before summer is over. I'll scan a piture when it gets out of the mold... Can't wait... and thanks for the info on the proper way to reply... Jeff

lostlake
06-14-2001, 02:42 PM
Have any of you checked out the deck boat that GS (Greg Shoemaker) is putting together, THe mold is owned by Tomm Papp, It looks like a 21 daytona hull, its actually 21'3, with a deck on top, I tested one the other day with a stock 502, legend set back pump, it seats 3 across the rear easily, 2 in the bolster seats, and 4 or more up front, we only had 2 in the boat with the 502 mag, and were doing a solid 60 @ 4800 and a great ride.. We came up on a skier slowed down to 40 and walked over the wakes, I ordered one already and hope to have it before summer is over. I'll scan a piture when it gets out of the mold... Can't wait... and thanks for the info on the proper way to reply... Jeff

lostlake
06-14-2001, 02:44 PM
Sorry for the triple post.. i think i got it now
[This message has been edited by lostlake (edited June 14, 2001).]

ULTRA28
06-14-2001, 07:00 PM
Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback on our newest design, we are currently finishing two new 21' vee tools first, then we will begin the actual tooling on the 22' cat. As many of you know, it takes at least a year to tool a new plug, then about six months to do the R&D to get the first one dialed in, many companies don't bother doing what it takes to make sure that they are putting out a perfect product before offering it to the public, thus causing themselves a bad reputation (as in the case of the advantage). If the bottom is not meant for a jet, then it shouldn't be built as one. Many people have asked me why I don't team up with Dave at DCB to build his 22 cat as a jet, but Dave and I both know that the bottom would not perform to our standards, so we have never done one. My goal is to keep the closed deck boat to about 2600lbs, which should air out at 60 mph with 410 hp. The deck boat is going to need more ponies because it should weigh in at about 3100 lbs.
It's logical to expect close to 80 mph with about 600 hp with the deck boat.
[This message has been edited by ULTRA28 (edited June 14, 2001).]

dcraig
06-15-2001, 08:08 AM
Sounds great. Keep us updated on your progress. Sounds like it will be boat like no other in the market.