to O ring or not to O ring

[keithmenard]

How many of you blower/turbo guys O ring their heads?

[Infomaniac]

Don't "O" ring unless it is full out race. Just put Cometic gaskets on it. I use them exclusively now. Even decked the "O" rings flat on my block.

[revndave]

My deal is o ringed,but it came that way.

[DetroitJim]

I'm bangin 14 lbs of boost and 7400 rpm, last time I tore it down there was no sign of a problem with plain old Fel Pro blues. Spend the cash on something else.

[bigkatboat]

"O" ring and receiver (in block). .041" stainless ring material, in a .039" groove. Copper head gasket, and extra head studs. This will last with any reasonable boost. Under 10lbs intercooled, go Cometic. I should have said "STAINLESS RING", forget the copper stuff.

[bigkatboat]

He removed enough material from the deck, that the 'grooves' were gone. "FLAT" = no grooves in deck.

[TIMINATOR]

Without detonation, and you READING THE INSTRUCTIONS(they have changed), fel-pros good to 16-18 lbs boost. If you o-ring the block it will usually leak water inside (the valley) or outside the motor. TIMINATOR

[Infomaniac]

Actually my block had been decked a number of times so I left the "O" rings in and decked them along with the block. Worked great. Could not afford any more deck loss. 4.375 stroke crank in std deck block.

[bigkatboat]

"O ring and receiver ring" the block and heads. NO LEAKS OR FAILURES! If you do it correctly it works. Also aircraft that super/turbo charge require "O rings" NEVER HAD ANY FAILURE WITH THIS METHOD, 36 years doing this stuff as a business, not a hobby. So "Info" left the 'O rings" in, and then leveled the decks. This process 'filled the grooves' and left a flat deck.

[steelcomp]

I'm with Info on this one. Orings are a pain in the ass unless a full race deal. Lots of boost, lots of hp, and big rpm's. Some run wire in the block w/ receiver groove in head. Some the other way...wire in head, receiver in block. Felpro makes their "lockwire" gasket that requires groove in the head to their specs. Some run wire w/ no receiver groove. My block is grooved, but I just put the gaskets on w/ no wire, which is the way it came. This was done supposedly to help keep the gasket from shifting which can happen with boost, if the head lifts a little. No matter what you do, you'll have to run copper gaskets when using orings (unless you run the felpro) and that's another pain in the ass, although there are some new embossed gaskets that seem to be working better. The Cometics are rapidly gaining popularity, and when I put my alky motor together, that's the direction I'm going. :coffeycup

[bigkatboat]

"O rings are a pain in the ass" YES! if you don't use your head! If building big power were SIMPLE, everone would do it. But more often than not, you see blown boats being towed back to the ramp. Why? Many blown motors in larger/ heavy'r boats are being built like they were in small boats. The load (boat size/ weight) is the most critical factor in building the motor. The next area is the RPM range. If ANYONE makes a FAIL PROOF BLOWER HEAD GASKET, I would like to know about it. PLease tell me! ALL OF THE PRODUCTS OFFERED TODAY HAVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. Do what works for your set- up. After 33 world champions in drag boats, I'm not going to change until a better solution comes around. Good luck to you all!

[Infomaniac]

Everyone has their parts and methods that they use and really no reason to change if whatever you are using works. I dislike "o" rings and copper gaskets because they are a bitch to seal up and it is impossible to get an optimum "quench" clearance. The gasket thickness has to be "x" times thicker than the "o" ring is tall. No way to hold to a .030 to .040 quench unless the piston is .010 out of the hole.
We buy Wire rings from Brad Anderson all the time to repair top alcohol and fuel heads.
Honestly I have not seen the need for them on pump gas or milder race deals.

[steelcomp]

Hey Ron, How many miles of wire you think we went through ar Dart and AJ's?
There were times I spent days just grooving heads and tapping in o-ring wire.
Tell ME it's not a pain! Then you get one that won't stay, 'cause you tapped a little too hard and flattened the wire and widened the groove. Back on the mill, set up the groover, bigger groove, bigger wire, time's a tickin. AAaghh!
Tapping wire in a groove is an art, and took a long time to get good at it. At least the TF guys have gotten smart and come up with a better mouse trap. Even those fail from time to time!
No wire for this guy, if it can be avoided at all!!

[revndave]

I just found out I have 2 blown head gaskets.I'm O ringed with copper head gaskets.I ran 10 lbs. of boost.Also had broken valve spring,2 bad valves,2 bent wrist pins and 2 bent rods.Other than that not too bad my engine build says. :)

[steelcomp]

"O rings are a pain in the ass" YES! if you don't use your head! If building big power were SIMPLE, everone would do it. But more often than not, you see blown boats being towed back to the ramp. Why? Many blown motors in larger/ heavy'r boats are being built like they were in small boats. The load (boat size/ weight) is the most critical factor in building the motor. The next area is the RPM range. If ANYONE makes a FAIL PROOF BLOWER HEAD GASKET, I would like to know about it. PLease tell me! ALL OF THE PRODUCTS OFFERED TODAY HAVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. Do what works for your set- up. After 33 world champions in drag boats, I'm not going to change until a better solution comes around. Good luck to you all!
Bigkat...I didn't see where anyone's asking you to change anything. After your 33 world shattering records that you've made us all very aware of, you've obviously got it figured out. But I'm wondering...how many motors have you put the new Cometics on? How will you know if a better solution comes along if you're not willing to try something new?
And o-ringing IS a pain in the ass to do right. That's why it's a paiin in the ass. It's not simple. :rolleyes:

[steelcomp]

I just found out I have 2 blown head gaskets.I'm O ringed with copper head gaskets.I ran 10 lbs. of boost.Also had broken valve spring,2 bad valves,2 bent wrist pins and 2 bent rods.Other than that not too bad my engine build says. :)
Dooood...WTF is up with THAT??? Who built your motor...Pep boys??? I thought that thing was the shiot! Sounds like water got in the motor.
Not too bad, huh. I wonder when it get's to "bad". :confused:
I'm bummin for ya! :frown:

[revndave]

Dooood...WTF is up with THAT??? Who built your motor...Pep boys??? I thought that thing was the shiot! Sounds like water got in the motor.
Not too bad, huh. I wonder when it get's to "bad". :confused:
I'm bummin for ya! :frown:
The assembly of the motor was top notch.No signs of water in motor.Engine builder said injector could of done it.I dont use a fuel shut off.Anyways I sold injector.Going with Dominators.

[steelcomp]

The assembly of the motor was top notch.No signs of water in motor.Engine builder said injector could of done it.I dont use a fuel shut off.Anyways I sold injector.Going with Dominators.
My bad...just bs'n...wish I'da known you were sellin the hat. GOOD LUCK!

[bigkatboat]

With a .039" groove in the block, and a .041" stainless steel wire in the groove, the copper gasket is displaced (at a 90 degree angle) into the receiver in the head. The displacement (of the ring into the gasket, into the groove) makes the gasket thickness relative. The fact that the flame travel is STOPPED by the displacement of the gasket at a 90 degree angle, makes this method the MOST COSTLY BUT MOST SAFE for blower motors (the FAA agrees). Yes, you can run Cometic gaskets on a MILD blower motor, but if you want the most trouble free PROVEN (FAA!) method, go with the O- ring and receiver. It won't fail, if put together CORRECTLY. In fact, I ran a totally stock 1979 454 Chevy truck with a 5lbs turbo system on it for 221,000 miles, so yes you can run ANY head gasket on a MILD blown motor. But what is the cut off point for MILD? I like to put them together once.

[steelcomp]

With a .039" groove in the block, and a .041" stainless steel wire in the groove, the copper gasket is displaced (at a 90 degree angle) into the receiver in the head. The displacement (of the ring into the gasket, into the groove) makes the gasket thickness relative. The fact that the flame travel is STOPPED by the displacement of the gasket at a 90 degree angle, makes this method the MOST COSTLY BUT MOST SAFE for blower motors (the FAA agrees). Yes, you can run Cometic gaskets on a MILD blower motor, but if you want the most trouble free PROVEN (FAA!) method, go with the O- ring and receiver. It won't fail, if put together CORRECTLY. In fact, I ran a totally stock 1979 454 Chevy truck with a 5lbs turbo system on it for 221,000 miles, so yes you can run ANY head gasket on a MILD blown motor. But what is the cut off point for MILD? I like to put them together once.
What's the FAA got to do with anything here? Last I looked, Lycomings and Continentals don't even have head gaskets...not that they're the only thing going, but you keep throwing in FAA like it means something.
You didn't mention groove depth, or wire height, either, wich is as, if not more, important than the press fit of the wire in the groove.
OK...everybody do it Bigkat's way.
We can stop thinking now. The FAA says so. :sleeping: :D

[revndave]

New motor should be together in about 4 to 5 weeks.Also got rid of 8-71.Running a 12-71 on new motor.

[UBFJ #454]

'Ms. MoneyPenny' whose Static CR is slightly above 15:1 has her second set of Cometic's in her. Her first set got 'Squished' in one spot when we 'Burpped' the head.

[BUSBY]

Here's our motor set up's ...
Blown Alcohol motor: 529 BBC, 1471, bird, Copper gaskets, o-ringed block, no receiver groove in the head, 85 ft. lbs torque, 30-35 lbs of boost, never blown a gasket.
Blown Gas motor: 440 BBC, PSI D, Copper gaskets, o-ringed block, receiver groove in head, 85 ft. lbs of torque, 40 lbs of boost, blows head gaskets every 2 passes.
IMHO, it (sealing the head to the block) is dependant on block/head/gasket preperation. My alcohol motor has had the block and heads decked at the same time. My Father-in-Law's gas motor didn't ... we argue all of the time on this topic, but maybe it's just me ... but mine don't seem to be blowing, his arguement is that he's running more boost ... blah, blah, blah.
My suggestion is find out the combination that works in your application and run that combination. We all know how different every motor is, and therefore each application will have respective differences ... including what type of head gasket is used.
Just my .02
Have a good day,
Brian

[UBFJ #454]

Brian is right ... It depends on the Type of Motor, Block & Head Prep as well as the head & block materials (and Manufacturers) ... Cast-Cast, Al-Cast, Al-Al.

[keithmenard]

my block is cast...the heads aluminum.
where are you guys getting your cometics?

[lucky]

this last year i was going to have my o rings ground flat - but my machinist would not do it on his machines - how hard is it on the machine ?

[Infomaniac]

this last year i was going to have my o rings ground flat - but my machinist would not do it on his machines - how hard is it on the machine ?
Did'nt affect the cutters at all. We thought it would just grab a wire and yank it out but it worked out great.
Send it to me. $65.00 to deck the block

[lucky]

Did'nt affect the cutters at all. We thought it would just grab a wire and yank it out but it worked out great.
Send it to me. $65.00 to deck the block thats cheap - but the shipping is killer lol

[keithmenard]

let me throw out one more thing...it apears both cometic AND felpro have MLS gaskets...preference?

[Huffer]

8-71 To 12-71 Big Diff. Wait And See!

[Infomaniac]

Finally got around to taking a pic of decking the block with "O" rings left in.
Came out really nice.
http://moritzmachine.com/pistons2.jpg

[Blown 472]

Finally got around to taking a pic of decking the block with "O" rings left in.
Came out really nice.
http://moritzmachine.com/pistons2.jpg
What rings are you using in that motta??

[Infomaniac]

Total seal gapless 2nd moly top.

[Blown 472]

Total seal gapless 2nd moly top.
Pretty smooth finish on the cylinder. :sqeyes:

[Infomaniac]

Digital cameras show odd things all the time. Those rings like a fairly smooth finish and go in dry. A little lube on the piston skirts and WD-40 only on the cyl walls.

[Blown 472]

Digital cameras show odd things all the time. Those rings like a fairly smooth finish and go in dry. A little lube on the piston skirts and WD-40 only on the cyl walls.
No problems with seating?

[Infomaniac]

Nope. That is per the instructions from Total Seal.

[Blown 472]

Nope. That is per the instructions from Total Seal.
Do those rings make that much of a difference? :confused:

[Infomaniac]

Can't hurt. :idea: :D
I use them if running any kind of compression or boost or both.

[Blown 472]

Can't hurt. :idea: :D
I use them if running any kind of compression or boost or both.
Cool, thanks I was always wondering if there were a pefered use for them.

[Fiat48]

If it's blown or I see a blower in it's future, the block get's O ringed. I don't run receiver grooves in the head. I use piano wire and cut the block with a hand operated tool so that the wire will protrude .015 out of the block. Unless it is blown alcohol with high static compression in which case I stick the wire up .020.
I use silicone sealant around all the water holes and the head studs and I have never blown a head gasket, pushed one or had a water leak. I reuse the head gaskets about 5 times or until I feel air creep from cylinder to cylinder (no valve train) with a leakdown tester.
Works for me.

[BUSBY]

If it's blown or I see a blower in it's future, the block get's O ringed. I don't run receiver grooves in the head. I use piano wire and cut the block with a hand operated tool so that the wire will protrude .015 out of the block. Unless it is blown alcohol with high static compression in which case I stick the wire up .020.
I use silicone sealant around all the water holes and the head studs and I have never blown a head gasket, pushed one or had a water leak. I reuse the head gaskets about 5 times or until I feel air creep from cylinder to cylinder (no valve train) with a leakdown tester.
Works for me.
Hallelujah! Finally, someone agrees with me! This is the same way I build motors ... never have problems, unless I run too thin off head gaskets ... like I did at the last race(s) ... .045" @ 40 lbs of boost ... this equals a bad time. So I figure, .065", no receiver groove ... 40 lbs, should be fine. I've spoken to Ron Braaksma, Amos Saterlee & Ralph Gorr ... and they agree.
So I agree with your post ... and I will find out at the next race, and hopefully, I will be correct. Unfortunately, I think I am pushing much more boost than most. But in the Top Alcohol Dragster, we push more boost ... while it's a BRAD motor ... it should all have the same characterisitcs, it doesn't. 50 lbs doesn't blow anything, while 40 lbs in the boat blows fast.
Maybe it's the thickness of the headgaskets. This is the first time I blew them (making 40 lbs.)

[Fiat48]

I've always used the .065 gasket with one exception. Ran the .040 gasket on one due to deck height and it had no problems. But 24 lbs of boost is the most I have seen on any of my motors.

[BUSBY]

I think I am going to reduce the boost this time around ... I'm going to play w/ 28-30 lbs & gear/prop changes. I'm getting tired of going through the motor every race (and the wife is getting tired of me buying parts :()