NJBA rulebook question....

[Jim B.]

I was looking through the NJBA online rulebook (I also have a hard copy book that I looked through) and it says that you have to obviously wear an approved safety jacket (Lifeline, etc.) but it doesn't state whether or not it has to be a chute jacket or when a chute jacket is required. Am I missing something in the rulebook? Is one required at a certian mph or is it personal preference or what??
JiM

[BUSBY]

Hey there Jim ...
Due to liability reasons, NJBA will not tell you a MPH or ET to run a chute jacket. Neither will Lifeline, SRP, etc.
Reason being, say we do tell someone to wear one at ... let's say 70 mph and the get hurt or heaven forbid something worse ... they or their family members can come back and say we told them that they would be safer w/ the chute jacket.
I know this sounds far fetched ... but smaller, more petty things have been taken to the board.
In my opinion, and again ... strictly my opinion, If you're approaching anywear near 100 you would be dumb to not wear one. It only helps you be safer, why take any chances? I have seen boats have accidents at 40 mph wear the chute deployed & were they haven't. You can get just as hurt at that speed as well.
So, I have a chute, and I encourage others to also. Then again, just my opinion.
Brian

[Jim B.]

Hey there Jim ...
Due to liability reasons, NJBA will not tell you a MPH or ET to run a chute jacket. Neither will Lifeline, SRP, etc.
Reason being, say we do tell someone to wear one at ... let's say 70 mph and the get hurt or heaven forbid something worse ... they or their family members can come back and say we told them that they would be safer w/ the chute jacket.
I know this sounds far fetched ... but smaller, more petty things have been taken to the board.
In my opinion, and again ... strictly my opinion, If you're approaching anywear near 100 you would be dumb to not wear one. It only helps you be safer, why take any chances? I have seen boats have accidents at 40 mph wear the chute deployed & were they haven't. You can get just as hurt at that speed as well.
So, I have a chute, and I encourage others to also. Then again, just my opinion.
Brian
Thanks for replying Brian.
So basically, just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, your saying that if a guy were to get hurt and was wearing a chute jacket, he could come back and say that he my not have gotten hurt if he was wearing a jacket with no chute,thus having a liability issue, correct? Or is it the opposite?

[Wicked Performance Boats]

opposite Budlight

[Jim B.]

opposite Budlight
If that's the case I wonder why they don't make chute jackets mandatory period???? :confused:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Because someone, somewhere would have an accident, the mandated chutejacket might actually be worse for the exact condition, and then they sue because they weren't allowed to wear something more apropriate. Just letting you determine your own risk tolerance and self-prescribing safety measures lets the NJBA cover their backs while putting the responsibility for your safety on you (where I feel it belongs in the first place).
Nope, not gonna get on my soapbox there, I see ya nudging it across the floor. :D

[Jim B.]

Because someone, somewhere would have an accident, the mandated chutejacket might actually be worse for the exact condition, and then they sue because they weren't allowed to wear something more apropriate. Just letting you determine your own risk tolerance and self-prescribing safety measures lets the NJBA cover their backs while putting the responsibility for your safety on you (where I feel it belongs in the first place.
I totally agree..That makes perfect sense.... :smile:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I sincerely wish I could type drivel like that knowing I was lying. A sign of the way my world has become (much to my disgust). :cry:

[tahitijet]

I can understand your point.. and not to start a bashing thread or anything..
At a MPH you require a pump release (I think at 100mph right?) How is this differen't from a set mph for a chute jakcet? Bad things can happen at under 100mph as well as over.
If a boat with a release crashes and injuires a driver is NJBA liable because you said it would make him safer? No
If a boat under 100 mph crashes and the driver is injuired and the crash could have been avoided with a release but you said it wasn't needed is NJBA liable? No
Racing is dangerous.. the driver takes a risk everytime he gets in the boat, but he knows that risk and its most likely stated as such on the wavier each driver must sign at registration.
It looks like the NJBA does a great job on safetly mandates to keep the drivers as safe as possible but there is still risk. I have no idea how a chute jacket works but i would think it would be less effective if it had any effect at all at slower speeds and I'm sure there is a big cost differance so there is potential benefit to not requiring them of all drivers. But i don't see how the NJBA is responsible for requiring them at say 100mph just like they do a pump release.
just my .02 cents

[bp]

I can understand your point.. and not to start a bashing thread or anything..
At a MPH you require a pump release (I think at 100mph right?) How is this differen't from a set mph for a chute jakcet? Bad things can happen at under 100mph as well as over.
yes, a jet boat is required to have either a ratchet or popoff IF the boat will meet or exceed 100mph. personally, i think 90 or 95 would be a better cutoff. when we're talking about 100, we're not talking about "99.9 is ok, just keep on coming back", because at some point, this boat is gonna be running over the number.
yes, unpleasant things can happen under 100, but nowhere near as distasteful as when a boat is well over. for example, there are a couple different ways people get hurt; blowovers, which you don't really see happen under 100, and the "hook and toss". the "hook and toss" can happen at pretty much any speed, but with a jetaway you have a chance. if you're engine dies, the hood slams down tossing you on the deck then the boat turns rather violently. if you're going well over 100, it will be very violent. if you're under 100, it's almost like slow motion, and if you're real lucky, the shoe wasn't too deep, the ratchet worked real well, you hung on tight, you might even stay in. if you're going over 100 when it hooks, no way you're staying in, and damage can happen as you bang on parts on your way out, and then bang into the water. hopefully the boat doesn't bang you.
the blowover is bad, and that's where the chute helps. this can happen with jets, hydros, and flats - i've seen it happen with all of 'em. depending on hull design, jets can fly like birds. when these things get out of shape, drivers are ejected high, the boat is still travelling forward. the chute slows the driver for impact with the water, and also slows the driver so he/she doesn't catch up to where the boat's going (hopefully).
the selection of the jacket is up to the driver, who hopefully consults with people that know about this stuff.
and this isn't just njba - check the other orgs, you'll find they're the same, with pretty similar hardware requirements for the boats.
If a boat with a release crashes and injuires a driver is NJBA liable because you said it would make him safer? No
If a boat under 100 mph crashes and the driver is injuired and the crash could have been avoided with a release but you said it wasn't needed is NJBA liable? No

[UBFJ #454]

Most other 'Orgs' require capsules for boats running quicker than 7.70 (which calcs to just about 117 mph in terms of constant speed over the 1/4) .....

[tahitijet]

Thanks BP more or less thats what i'm getting at. A chute jacket may not be of any help to a slower class of boat and may not have the time or drag to work properly anyway in these boats therefore would be a waste of money especially for the more budget oreinted classes On the other hand in a faster class it could have a huge impact on safety.
The main point in my post was Busby mentioned liability mainly as the result of someone getting hurt even with a chute if it were required, but I don't see how NJBA would have any more liability then by requiring a release or a capsele for that matter at a certian MPH which they do and for great reason.
Please don't read my post wrong. I'm not bashing NJBA in anyway I hope to come out and run some in the RR class in the near future. Just not sure how the Liability would effect NJBA any more so then there other safety requirments.

[BUSBY]

Hi guys ... I'm back ... Wow ... I didn't think this would get this much attention.
Bob (BP) ... thanks ... well put ...
Jim B ... like Budlight said ...
Jak ... you know we love you and IHBA rules ... but even Charlie won't tell you when to wear a chute jacket ... please correct me if I am wrong?
Tahitijet ... we (NJBA) want to make sure that everyone is running safely. IMO I think that we have the best safety rules, RESCUE, and tech teams as of today. I have raced with other org's for numerous years and truefully beleive this. I cannot and will not tell anyone when to wear a chute jacket. However, the board has decided when a capsule is necessary for safety ... and I will back them on their decision.
As Bob (BP) has said ... there are numerous situations that could cause an accident ... I have experienced both a blow over and numerous hook and grabs. Niether situation was pleasent. But, in both situations ... I was glad to not have been hurt badly. In neither situation was the chute delpoyed ... but I still experienced them (I just held on too hard and didn't let go of the steering wheel, which almost killed me in the blow over)
Unfortunately, the NJBA will not make it mandatory until the manafacturers of the chute jackets put it in writing where the safety speed is.
Brian

[Cheyenne372]

Busby:
Charlie's (IHBA) Rule, as quoted to me the LAST time I pulled into Phoenix was:
"...You're Not Cheating Till You Get Caught...", so let's leave him out of this as a reputable source!
(For the Record, at registration, he had me FORGE the signature of the owner of the boat I was driving, who was not in attendance, allowing me to race, but also opening the whole sport up to litigation if something had happened.)
As for mandating the Chute Jacket, you can mandate it all you want, but you can't make the driver hook it up!....and I've seen plenty of jet boat drivers that WILL NOT hook up those static lines!

[BUSBY]

Busby:
Charlie's (IHBA) Rule, as quoted to me the LAST time I pulled into Phoenix was:
"...You're Not Cheating Till You Get Caught...", so let's leave him out of this as a reputable source!
(For the Record, at registration, he had me FORGE the signature of the owner of the boat I was driving, who was not in attendance, allowing me to race, but also opening the whole sport up to litigation if something had happened.)
Wow ... now that seems to be pretty serious ... a little shady even.
As for mandating the Chute Jacket, you can mandate it all you want, but you can't make the driver hook it up!....and I've seen plenty of jet boat drivers that WILL NOT hook up those static lines!
We will not mandate it ... that is my whole point. And I agree ... you can't make someone do what they're supposed to. We argue w/ 3 or 4 people regularly about wearing their helmet restraints. They have them buckled up when they enter the water, but by the time they go down the track, they've unhooked them. We are just disqualifying them now.
I still beleive that a chute and/or anything that will make it safer, no matter how uncomfortable, should be used.
Brian

[bp]

tahitijet, as far as liability stuff, i don't really concern myself with that. i'm a racer, not a racing org, which means I DECIDE to sign the dotted line, not anyone else, and I DECIDE what to wear, and I DECIDE whether or not i choose to get in the water, and I DECIDE whether or not i'm gonna leave and drive through.
no matter what the rules are, people can do things that are not too terribly bright. like, pulling their helmets up because it's just too warm, or running without helmet restraints connected, or running without ballistic shorts, or the really good ones, running after bypassing their kill switches. it CAN get a little warm out on the rope with all the gear on, but that's just the way it is and if the heat can't be handled, shouldn't be out there. that safety gear is there to protect the driver if something happens, and if used properly, it does a pretty good job.
there are a lot of good justifiable reasons why all the safety rules that exist, do exist. the chute/no chute IS gray, simply because of the reasons stated before. but, for example, if you were to show up with a PGJ, with no ratchet or popoff, you would not be running, and that's clear. the problems you would encounter on shutdown would be just too likely to happen.
the best thing to do is to make sure the boat is safe in the first place, and keep a close eye on it, have others watching it, and asking people how it looked.
as far as liabilitys and suing, people can sue over tripping over power cords if they want. they plant fingers in chili bowls so they can sue. sue sue sue. what if i ran into a duck, do i sue the duck, or does the duck sue me? i dam near had a duck go into my scoop one race. this is a hobby/sport, whatever you want to call it, nobody makes any money at it, we're just addicted. we're certainly not forced into it. in order keep going, we need to make sure it's as safe as possible, and that we are as safe as possible. that boils down to three things; good safety rules, responsible behavior with respect to following the safety rules, and always being alert to any questionable condition with the boat/safety gear/water and getting that condition addressed before proceeding.
i've never seen charlie at registration. he's usually at the track, and registration is somewhere else.

[BUSBY]

what if i ran into a duck, do i sue the duck, or does the duck sue me? i dam near had a duck go into my scoop one race.
Bob "the duck killer" Prigmore :D I like it!

[Squirtin Thunder]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bp
what if i ran into a duck, do i sue the duck, or does the duck sue me? i dam near had a duck go into my scoop one race.
Bob "the duck killer" Prigmore :D I like it!
Actually I can answer that question because I know first hand. You get fined from what ever org is in control of the wildlife at that particular race site. And for me APBA requested that we avoid to foul to the best of our ability. If I remember correctly it was a dum ass Gooose and the fine was something like $350, but that was in the early '90s.
Jim

[tahitijet]

Bp and Busby.. I am in total agreement with both of you.. Safety is number 1, and The driver knowingly sings himself in, puts on his helmet and works his way down the rope. Knowing the whole time the Risk still involved.
My responses are towards this quote.
"Reason being, say we do tell someone to wear one at ... let's say 70 mph and the get hurt or heaven forbid something worse ... they or their family members can come back and say we told them that they would be safer w/ the chute jacket."
This is where i dont' follow. So a driver getting hurt at say 70 with a chute how is NJBA any more liable then another driver getting hurt at 100mph or above? NJBA said he would be safer with a release but he still got hurt?
I just don't see how NJBA is liable for injury either way... Sure NJBA will get sued either way but so will the group that built the safety devices and the group that issued the permit to use Ming. and everyone else they can think of. Just the way people are anymore.
I guess im' just curious how they can be liable for requiring one safety device and not another..

[mj680]

Why doesn't NJBA give drivers licenses or membership cards ? :2purples:

[bp]

Actually I can answer that question because I know first hand. You get fined from what ever org is in control of the wildlife at that particular race site. And for me APBA requested that we avoid to foul to the best of our ability. If I remember correctly it was a dum ass Gooose and the fine was something like $350, but that was in the early '90s.
Jim
busby, i aint no dam duck killer :mad: i ain't gettin in the back of no ranger car, no way, not me... that seat's reserved for somebody else :cool:
i dodged him at 3/4 track, swerved to the left as he was liftin off and headin' north. i ducked (no pun) and didn't see any feathers on the "duck deflector" (that thing has more than one use), so i guess i dodged it.
jim, i don't think it was a goose, more like a mudhen. probly not as expensive, and most likely a little quicker on the take off.
ronnie, i can't answer your question - i gotta a drivers license and membership card from somewhere...
tahitijet, the boat is safer with a ratchet or popoff or both. a 170 mph hydro is inherently safer with a capsule than without one. v-drives are safer with whirlaways than without them. i've seen open and capsule boats equipped with all the safety devices crash, and drivers were banged up but survived. but i've also seen open and capsule boats crash where the drivers didn't make it. people that are looking for guarantees that this is 100% safe, especially in classes where the envelope is being pushed, are definately not in the right area. everyone does everything they can to make this as safe as possible, but sometimes, something goes awry. i have to go back to my original point - the boat must be safe, and be operated safely. if it's not, it won't be allowed to run. if the boat is on the edge, or appears to be unsafe, the safety people will be contacting the driver/owner.
my -sense- is, that when bad things happen, lawsuits are the abnorm, not the norm. if that were not the case, and people were winning mass sums everytime someone was injured or worse, i would guess that there would be no companies and there would be no dragboat racing.
as far as chute/no chute, my personal feeling is that there is just no firm concrete cutoff point as far as when it is absolutely necessary, and when it is not, and it would take an entire rulebook to come up with all the different scenarios that would need to be considered. it's more reasonable for each driver/owner to consider what jacket provides the highest level of safety for the application, possibly consult with lifeline, and use it.
i remember when tom bogdanich got dumped at chowchilla 4 years ago, didn't seem like much of a problem. it was the old "hook and toss" out of a cp tunnel, he just went over the side, maybe 100, maybe 90. but, back then, ballistic shorts were not mandatory, in fact not all that many people even realized they existed or wore them. tom's story should be repeated about every year or so, of all the surgurys he had to repair his internals, all the internals he lost, the number of times he died on the operating table. he has survived all that, and after a hard lesson, ballistic shorts are mandatory and people wear them - they will protect against what happened to tom.

[BUSBY]

sorry Bob ... how's this ... Bob "the duck dodger" Prigmore and Brian "oh crap, I'm in the back seat of the ranger's car" Busby. :2purples:
Actually, Loyd Bell has the official title of duck killer, he's taken out 2 as far as I know.
Ron, I have asked the board for id's/liscences ... didn't go anywhere, now I keep a log w/ baot numbers and driver names since taking the race director position ... I agree ... we need them.
Not to change the subject, but I had a great 4th of July weekend, spent some good times w/ some old friends ... maybe some that will come back out to NJBA and run their jets ... how about it Don Harris, now that I know you read the boards and specifically ... this thread!
Ron says, "bring it on!"
:D

[bp]

well hell, harris has plenty of experience jumpin' outta boats at high speed (probly more than he ever wanted)... he outta toss in his three cents :D :D :D mebbe he's just waitin' for you to post some numbers that say 7.8somethin'... ron mebbe outta do somethin with that red boat before askin' for donny, but then again, more boats are always better... :cool:

[Jim B.]

Thanks for all the input boyz. Sorry I took awhile to respond since I'm the one who asked the initial question and all. Basically i'm trying to figure the in's and out's of the NJBA because I plan on racing the first race of next season. I've told CS19 and a few others here on the boards that I was going to try to make a few races this season but due to the fact that I just bought a new house here in Bakersfield.......I'm busy at the moment. I'm really excited about doing it although it's kinda tough when don't have anyone that you know that's already in the sport to show you the ropes. Everybody seems to be friendly and willing to help out. I actually ran the boat at Ming on Thursday morning before the last race and met Steve Sharp and a few others who were really cool and let me ask a million questions about racing.
As far as the boat goes, it runs around the 90 mph mark right now. After talking with Jack as well as Papp they both agreed that my set up is way off. So hopefully by next season it will be running 100 or maybe more after Jack takes another look at it and I can do more testing. Anybody mind me hanging out in there pits at the next race so I can learn a few things?? Let me know..... Thanks.
Jim Barnett

[cyclone]

jim- while I'm hardly a professional, I was a new guy just like you trying to figure out the "ins and outs" of racing with the njba last season. I'll be out next season and you are more than welcome to pit next to me if you like. I think i've made most of the mistakes already so i can clue you into how to avoid the major ones. Good luck with the boat and I hope to see you out there.

[Jim B.]

jim- while I'm hardly a professional, I was a new guy just like you trying to figure out the "ins and outs" of racing with the njba last season. I'll be out next season and you are more than welcome to pit next to me if you like. I think i've made most of the mistakes already so i can clue you into how to avoid the major ones. Good luck with the boat and I hope to see you out there.
I'm going to take you up on that! Thanks!!

[BUSBY]

well hell, harris has plenty of experience jumpin' outta boats at high speed (probly more than he ever wanted)... he outta toss in his three cents :D :D :D mebbe he's just waitin' for you to post some numbers that say 7.8somethin'... ron mebbe outta do somethin with that red boat before askin' for donny, but then again, more boats are always better... :cool:
Fuentes has been awaiting the return of Blade Runner all year, but Don stated Sunday night that he (Ron) will have to wait until the beginning of next season to take him on. We, Ron & I, were wondering why we slowed down last race (8.3's) found out the teflon was gone. So 7.8's next race ... our problem is Don is running 7.7's and 10 mph quicker ... so it's down to the hole shot. Not Ron's specialty :squiggle:
Jim ... sorry for the thread hijack ... Both Bob (BP) and I are at every NJBA race. We would love to offer you any advice and/or help. Bob is very knowledgeable and a great jet boat racer ... and as for me ... well I've been told I'm a little looney, but they made me Race Director anyways, I must be halfway okay! I hope to see you out there soon, stop by anytime ... everyone knows where I am ... just look for the complaint line.
And as for Mr. Harris ... I know you're lurking around out there ... any words?
Brian