540 questions, please help.

[brad martin]

Has anyone had problems with 540 ci engines, professionaly built, breaking manley H-beam rods? The oiling system is o.k. any input would be helpful. Oh yeah it lasted 4.1 hrs. with about 2.5 of those on the hose.

[Racing Ray]

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[This message has been edited by Racing Ray (edited March 12, 2002).]

[brad martin]

As I am not an engine builder I do not have all the info you need. Here is what I know, all brand new parts balanced, and blue printed. Builder refused to start, run, or test boat in my presence. This because I had bad mouthed him for taking nearly a year to complete this project, I think his business just grew to fast, first motor a 509 he built was great. They also told me to go get f-ed. this engine has never run outside the presence of a mechanic, one very well known, and respected in my part of the country, never over 5400rpm, 4.1 total hours. Any help is appreciated, sorry for long post.

[DEL51]

Brad,I have been in your situation and it sucks! I spent 13k on a motor that lasted about 1 hour.You need to talk to an expert and someone who stands behind their work.I found a guy in my area after dealing some well known guys in the magazines.He has a dyno and that is where you find out alot,plus if something does go wrong,he can address the problem on the spot.Something is wrong if he won't even listen to it run.If you don't know alot about engines or don't have an adequate garage,then try to find someone in your area that can help.If you want to call my builder,he can try to advise you over the phone,but he will be limited without an inspection.Gather as much information about your engine as you can and what the problems are.The name of my builder is Todd Goodwinn,"GoodWinn Competition"(920)685-3000.He will offer some advise and he is easy to talk to.Another source is a fellow hot boater on this forum that goes by "BlownDragBoat". He builds powerful big blocks and has a wealth of information.Word will get around about this jerk and he may screw a few other people too.BDB reads the forums and can be found by posting.If you talk to todd mention my name,Chris, and tell him the deal.Good Luck,DEL51

[brad martin]

del51,
Acording to the builder my engine was on the dyno, long enough for a couple of oil changes at least. I had to get an attorney involved to get this thing back after they had it for 9-11 months, and summer was over, that is why I was an a@#hole in there words, also I bitched in boating circles. So they refused to test it with me, a@#hole or not, the took my money. Also I never even started it without a mechanic present. Also their advertising tout a 90 day warrantee. But all I want is a motor that runs!

[058]

As Racing Ray said We will need more info about the motor. It would help to know where the rods are breaking, pin area? beam? or big end. Also rod ratio, as Ray said a stock length rod isn't a good choice with any type of stroker. I'll go one step further and recommend a 6.800" long rod. Any possiblity of making peace with your engine builder? This may be your best course of action.

[DEL51]

Wow, a lawyer was involved? Who knows what this guy did and maybe this engine isn't even a 540.I seriously doubt you will be able to compromise with this builder.You may want to get some information about warranty claims and talk to the lawyer again.He probably should be the one to dole out the advise on what to do next.Please let us know what happens.DEL51

[brad martin]

Yes my lawyer is my best bet for legal advise, and he has written a friendly letter to the builder to try and work this out. But I figure this forum is where I can get some of the most complete, and competent motor knowledge, complete parts list by 5pm EST. Thanks for the help.

[brad martin]

Parts list:
bow tie block
callies 4.25 crank
h series bearings
manley 6.385 rods
cpp 181553 pistons
ati 7" super dampner
solid roller cam w/866 tappets
221043 valve springs
del-west titanium retainers
pbm 8991-t billet roller timing kit
c&a rs43z ringset
manley 11739 exh valves
manley 11850 int valves
canfield aluminum heads
demon carb
dart intake dual plane
completely dyno tested
balanced and blueprinted

[HeavyHitter]

Depends on compression and timing and what fuel you're running. Anything can blow up if it detonates long enough. .200 longer rods aren't great but should be ok. Whats the total timing? Is it going lean somewhere it wasn't dynod at? By that I mean any part throttle conditions that send the timing way up and the mixture way lean. A friend has a 900+ blown 468 with Manly rods. 8:1 compression 36 degrees of timing and runs 132 mph in a quarter. 79 Sanger hydro. The engines never been touched in 6 years. Lots of passes at the lake. The engine has never seen anything under 112 octane. I just recently went with a set of Eagle rods. Not my first choice by a longshot but not many out there for a hemi if you want steel. Thay've taken 1124 hp for 25 hours. It's just a 528 on 92 octane. 8:1 at 8 psi. Running right around 12:1 A/F ratio. You're parts list looks good. Need more info on when and how it fails.

[DEL51]

Brad,I think you have adequate parts,Now you should diagnose the problem.You said the oil pressure was ok,how was the water temperature?Pull the spark plugs and look them over good.Do you have a bent rod or is it broken?Did you have any water in the oil?Have you disassembled any part of the engine?Drain the oil and look for metal particles.Did you remove the oil pan to look at the bottom end of the engine?Let us know if tou have done this already and what you found.Then we can do some more investigating.DEL51

[Unchained]

Brad, I agree with Del about you needing to do some careful diagnosis to pinpoint the
source of the problem. It almost sounds like the engine hydraulic-ed. I seen an engine where water leaked in while the engine was shut down and a connecting rod bent upon startup. I hope your engine builder wasn't Fo**er, I thought those guys were the best.
As far as the rod angle goes I agree with Ray, the rod angle becomes very important when using a stroker crank. I went with 10.7 deck height block and a 7.25" long rod for a 540ci. That gave me a 1.7 rod length to stroke ratio.
Stock 454 rod length to stroke ratio is 1.53
Stock 350 chevy is 1.7
Your engine was 1.5
With the short rod the crank is jamming the piston into the side of the cyl wall in the middle of the compression stroke. The longer the rod the better mechanical advantage the crank has against the piston.

[Racing Ray]

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[This message has been edited by Racing Ray (edited March 12, 2002).]

[brad martin]

To all,
I agree parts list looked good. The reason I started with the rod question is that my new engine builder said that the H-beam is not necessarily conducive to marine use and makes a better drag racing part...but I should get on-line and see if anyone else had similar problems but it seems not to be the case. FYI motor is not supercharged and original builder refuses to give any specs. all parts info was taken from my bill. Heavy Hitter, don't know comp. ratio timing 36, 93 octane with booster, no signs of going lean. DEL51, no water in oil, spark plugs o.k., timing 36, metal in oil you ask. Does a hole in tha pan, rods, pistons, and bearings count? Unchained, no signs of back-up. Thank you all for your help and interest, but I think we are all forgeting: THIS MOTOR WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN PROFESSIONALY BUILT AND TESTED, IF THIS WAS THE CASE IT SHOULD NOT HAVE FAILED, REMEMBER THEY REFUSED TO RUN IT IN MY PRESENCE BUT HAD BEEN COMPLETELY PAID MONTHS IN ADVANCE. HMMMM.

[brad martin]

ROD BROKE DEAD CENTER, Sorry I did not make that clear, but it looks as though main bearing went and then the rest, but I am still not a mechanic, and could be wrong. let us review FACTS:
1. They tout 90 day warantee parts and workmanship.
2. They do their own machine work.
3. promise build book, dyno sheet, parts list, and test report: none of which I can get.
4. They also refused to test or even start boat for me.
5. They were pre-paid.
6. Took almost a year.
I may not know all the answers to questions asked in this forum, but I do know when something is done improperly, and this scenario stinks from the start, not only have I got a broken 540, but am disheartened to boot. Also I have had unhappy customers in my lifetime, and bent over backwards to change that, not everyone can do things perfect every time but when you screw-up, step-up, I know we all try and teach our children these basics.
Sincerly,
Brad

[Unchained]

The rod broke dead center ! Either the engine had to be hydraulic-ed,
or the material in the Manley rod had to be defective. Have the rod pieces sent to Manley to be tested. If the material is bad Manley needs to pay. I can't believe the engine builder could be at fault for the problem you described unless he caused it to hydraulic. I heard of a situation where a electric fuel pump was running when someone didn't know and it filled up the cylinder and bent the con rod on startup.
Let me tell you about the abuse I put stock chevy 454 rods through.
Lo-po 454 4v out of a passenger car.
Put on merlin heads, switched to chevy steel crank and forged pistons but kept stock rods with press in pins, engine not balanced.
Ran it in my jet boat with nitrous for a couple seasons. 5300 rpm
Bolted on a 6-71 blower and two 750 holleys.
Never took the heads off or freshened the rings or bearings.
Ran it at the boat drags, 11.3 et at 91 mph
5,800 rpm 8 lbs boost.
Ran great to the last day, Probably could have used fresh rings toward the end. Sold the engine to another guy for 5k and he put it in his street rod.

[schiada96]

Reversion if bad enough could cause the engine to hydraulic how much overlap in the cam. If the builder knew it was for a marine app he should have known that. What exhaust are you running? Thru transom or what?

[DEL51]

Brad, i agree with what unchained said regarding the rod.I think it would take a severe shock, like hydraulic,Material defect,Or SABBATOGE!I hope I spelled that correctly.How much work/money to repair?did your crank survive?How explicit is the warranty,does it allow a teardown?Can you tell us who this builder is?WE WANT TO KNOW.

[brad martin]

There were no signs of reversion, the exhaust was set up so this would be hard to do. Also overlap in cam is a big question, since they will not provide any info, even though I paid for it. We will be sending all parts to be tested, I do not think I should name the builder at this time, and if they decide to help, I will be sure to praise them for it on this forum. Warantee reads: ? warrantees all of its products are free from defects in materials, and craftmanship for a period of 90 days from shipping. This warrantee covers all major castings, components and parts. We reserve the right to change, substitute or delete parts based on availability and/or ongoing research and development. You are all very helpful and I appreciate it.
Brad