Couldn't the cops just shoot his legs out or something???

[Rod-64]

Coroner: Toddler killed by LAPD bullet
Police say gunman used daughter as shield
LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- The 19-month-old toddler who died during a gunfire exchange between police and her father was killed by a single police bullet to the head, the Los Angeles County coroner said Wednesday.
The report said it came from a Los Angeles Police Department officer's rifle.
The girl's father, Jose Raul Pena, died as a result of multiple gunshot wounds, the coroner said.
Pena, 34, was holding his daughter Suzy when he opened fire on police last Sunday, unleashing 40 shots in three separate exchanges. He and his daughter died in a hail of gunfire after he confronted police in an alley behind his apartment.
A total of 11 officers fired nearly 90 shots at Pena.
Chief William Bratton said Monday that Pena "left the officers no choice."
The LAPD's internal investigative unit was looking into the shooting, and its findings will be reviewed by the district attorney's office and the civilian Police Commission.
In a timeline offered by Bratton, the incident began at 2 p.m. when Pena's estranged wife made a domestic terrorist report, accusing him of threatening her, his 17-year-old stepdaughter and the toddler.
At that time, officers could not find him, Bratton said.
About two hours later, the stepdaughter called 911 from Pena's auto dealership to report that he had threatened her, Bratton said.
Before police arrived, a dispatcher called back, and the stepdaughter answered, but the call abruptly ended, Bratton said.
After 4 p.m., shortly after officers arrived, Pena began shooting, using the toddler as a shield, Bratton said.
The 17-year-old stepdaughter escaped, later telling police that Pena was under the influence of cocaine and alcohol and had threatened to kill her, the toddler, his wife and himself, Bratton said.
Though crisis negotiators were able to talk by telephone with Pena at 5 p.m., he ended the call about 5:35 p.m., Bratton said.
At about 6:30 p.m., in the last of the shootings, Pena and the baby were killed.
Sunday's incident was only the second time in the 38-year history of the SWAT team that a hostage died during a standoff involving the unit, Bratton said. In the last incident, in the 1970s, the victim was killed by the hostage-taker, he said

[essexjet]

Right or Wrong by the officers I dont know, but what I do know is that Chief William Bratton stood by his officers 100% in the news conferences. By him standing there he(chief Bratton) put all the blame on the father for putting the child in harms way.

[Rod-64]

Right or Wrong by the officers I dont know, but what I dont know is that Chief William Bratton stood by his officers 100% in the news conferences. By him standing there he(chief Bratton) put all the blame on the father for putting the child in harms way.
It's a sad thing either way.........it's one of those "you had to be there" deals but I know there's going to be controversy on this one.

[beer hunter]

In some areas of LA, the cops will never be in the right. Unfortunately, those peeps are the ones most served by the cops. It's always a tragedy when the most innocent of lives is lost.

[essexjet]

It's a sad thing either way.........it's one of those "you had to be there" deals but I know there's going to be controversy on this one.
You do see protest going on but where is Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson oh wait, the victim was hispanic never mine

[NashvilleBound]

Right or Wrong by the officers I dont know, but what I dont know is that Chief William Bratton stood by his officers 100% in the news conferences. By him standing there he(chief Bratton) put all the blame on the father for putting the child in harms way.
As the Chief should. The dirtbag WAS the problem...unfortunately he involved the baby.

[essexjet]

As the Chief should. The dirtbag WAS the problem...unfortunately he involved the baby.
Yeah tell that to Sheriff Lee Baca.

[Big Warlock]

That this is even up for discussion!! How is it that a guy gets high on whatever, shoots at the police, places his child in harms way, and people still wonder if the police are at fault????? WTF!!!!!! If you are thinking that, you seriously are part of our country's problem!!!

[Kachina26]

Couldn't the cops just shoot his legs out or something???
You're kidding, right?

[ColeTR2]

I’m going to develop a new line of body armor it’s going to have pockets front, back and sides to put babies in. It will be great for people that want to try to kill cops!!

[BarryMac]

It's unfortunate that the toddler was killed but her piece of shit father used her as a human shield, so many people are going to complain about the baby being killed and none of them have to deal with the stress of being a Cop,they should stand in an Officers shoes for one day and see how they react when some piece of shit is shooting at them or trying to run them down with a 5,000lb car... :mad: :mad: :mad:

[a catered life]

In some areas of LA, the cops will never be in the right. Unfortunately, those peeps are the ones most served by the cops. It's always a tragedy when the most innocent of lives is lost.
i hear what you are saying there beer and agree 100% but remember i the last 8-9 years there has been some stupid crap done by too many cops

[MagicMtnDan]

Why am I surprised at how ignorant people are? "Shoot his legs?!" :hammerhea WTF are you talking about?!
The people protesting in the streets calling the cops baby killers are the same people who desperately need police protection.
The guy was shooting at innocent people and at the cops (he shot a cop) who came to protect the people. HE USED HIS OWN DAUGHTER as a "shield" when he came out with the gun in his hand.
Yeah, maybe they could have just let him walk or drive away with the gun in his hand and baby in his arms. And maybe they should let people driving stolen cars drive away. And maybe the police shouldn't shoot anyone because after all, maybe they're not guilty (well they haven't be proven guilty yet). :eek: :mad:
Maybe you don't see the need for the police to have the public's support. Maybe you don't need police.
I do.

[NOTALENT]

That this is even up for discussion!! How is it that a guy gets high on whatever, shoots at the police, places his child in harms way, and people still wonder if the police are at fault????? WTF!!!!!! If you are thinking that, you seriously are part of our country's problem!!!
Im with u 100% on that one. You know this is happening more and more. I feel sorry for the baby, but when someone is shooting at the cops in public or puts other peoples lives on the line and get shot and killed...it was well deserved..unfourtunatley the babys life lost was a tragedy..the cop's are out there risking there lifes, doing there job to protect the citizens..and when a job is taken care of...there job is on the line due to racism, something some prick thinks could have been handled differently, only there not in the prediciment to understand the thought process of what goes on under that pressure when your there, or some other B.S!

[a catered life]

dam mmm :sqeyes: you got strong feelings about this subject i see :p :coffeycup

[Nate56]

Why couldn't a sniper just put one between his eyes???

[BarryMac]

Why am I surprised at how ignorant people are? "Shoot his legs?!" :hammerhea WTF are you talking about?!
The people protesting in the streets calling the cops baby killers are the same people who desperately need police protection.
The guy was shooting at innocent people and at the cops (he shot a cop) who came to protect the people. HE USED HIS OWN DAUGHTER as a "shield" when he came out with the gun in his hand.
Yeah, maybe they could have just let him walk or drive away with the gun in his hand and baby in his arms. And maybe they should let people driving stolen cars drive away. And maybe the police shouldn't shoot anyone because after all, maybe they're not guilty (well they haven't be proven guilty yet). :eek: :mad:
Maybe you don't see the need for the police to have the public's support. Maybe you don't need police.
I do.
OMG, I actually agree with MMD on something, are the planets going to align today??? :D

[NOTALENT]

Shoot his legs
what if the shot to the leg hit a nerve or the pain inflicted caused the father to squeeze the trigger while having the gun to the babys head...either way theres no right or wrong...they can only do there best.

[probablecause]

You get sued no matter what. If we just stood around and did nothing, tried to negotiate with him, and he then killed his daughter, we would have been sued for not acting quick enough. You will never appease or please the people of South Central Los Angeles! They are always looking for some sort of handout, some way to cheat the system, and someone to blame for their lack of responsibility. Thanks, I feel better now :coffeycup

[BoatPI]

FYI a 6 channel digital video recorder hooked to cameras recorded most of the incident. The final shootout was not on camera but the jackass may have used the monitor to shhot through the wall of the office at approaching SWAT officers wounding one of them.

[NOTALENT]

You get sued no matter what. If we just stood around and did nothing, tried to negotiate with him, and he then killed his daughter, we would have been sued for not acting quick enough. You will never appease or please the people of South Central Los Angeles! They are always looking for some sort of handout, some way to cheat the system, and someone to blame for their lack of responsibility. Thanks, I feel better now :coffeycup
like they should get some sort of reparation for this and other similar bull shit.

[Wally_Gator]

Why couldn't a sniper just put one between his eyes???
Probably because the police shot through the walls of the office. No visual and just returned fire.
My thoughts....
1. Police needed to defend themselves....
2. The guy started shooting when cornered by police. The police could have used different Judgement (if ) they knew the toddler was there... There is some question about what they knew and when they knew it..
3. There was one innocent victim here and she did not deserve to die and to play the off is a shame...
4. I would not want to be one of the officers involved in that. Some may never return to the force because of this. The mental cost of this has to be unberable and I feel for them...
5. We can all Monday morning QB this but mistakes were made on both sides. and we can hope people may learn something. Maybe fathers won't involve their children in SBC. (Suicide By Cop)
Just my opinion...

[Wally_Gator]

They are always looking for some sort of handout, some way to cheat the system, and someone to blame for their lack of responsibility. Thanks, I feel better now :coffeycup
Or their own lack of ambition or their lack of morals, Or, Or...
Like everyone owes them something because their forefathers were slaves or their forefathers lived here before it was the U.S. or, or , or.
That shit just pisses me off...

[Mrs_Wally_Gator]

It was said on this morning on the news that police knew that he was holding the child the whole time. They knew the child was in the man's arms and yet they still opened fire on him. I am sorry, but that pisses me off! They had had a choice and I personally feel they made the wrong one by opening fire on him with the child in his arms
Just my 2 pennies worth.

[mbrown2]

That this is even up for discussion!! How is it that a guy gets high on whatever, shoots at the police, places his child in harms way, and people still wonder if the police are at fault????? WTF!!!!!! If you are thinking that, you seriously are part of our country's problem!!!
Agree 100%...maybe if cops did not criminals with kid gloves, criminals would not be so quick to go toe to toe with cops....
Let GOD be the judge and not some internet armchair quarterbacks...

[a catered life]

OMG, I actually agree with MMD on something, are the planets going to align today??? :D
you may be at the nexus of the universe :D

[MagicMtnDan]

It was said on this morning on the news that police knew that he was holding the child the whole time. They knew the child was in the man's arms and yet they still opened fire on him. I am sorry, but that pisses me off! They had had a choice and I personally feel they made the wrong one by opening fire on him with the child in his arms
Just my 2 pennies worth.
Oh really?! Is YOUR husband or brother a cop? I didn't think so.
He shot a cop. He had been shooting at people. He was shooting at the cops. The cops didn't put his daughter in his arms. Why don't you blame the father for doing that to his daughter?! What if he was your husband - would you condone his holding your daughter while shooting at police?
WTF is wrong with people?! :cry:

[Wally_Gator]

Oh really?! Is YOUR husband or brother a cop? I didn't think so.
He shot a cop. He had been shooting at people. He was shooting at the cops. The cops didn't put his daughter in his arms. Why don't you blame the father for doing that to his daughter?! What if he was your husband - would you condone his holding your daughter while shooting at police?
WTF is wrong with people?! :cry:
Take it easy MMD....
Sheriffs in this family...
Are you a father? Do you feel for the Innocent life lost that never had a choice in the matter?
The daughter is the only one here with no blame whatsoever.
Let the IAD investigation tell everyone what had happened. But there are questions as to whether things could have been hadled better.
Things that may have contained the situation and avoided a officer bing shot and a toddler being killed...

[NOTALENT]

Take it easy MMD....
Sheriffs in this family...
Are you a father? Do you feel for the Innocent life lost that never had a choice in the matter?
The daughter is the only one here with no blame whatsoever.
Let the IAD investigation tell everyone what had happened. But there are questions as to whether things could have been hadled better.
Things that may have contained the situation and avoided a officer bing shot and a toddler being killed...
u know every situation could have been handled better or differently after it has taken place! but when its there point blank...each and every move is going to be unpredictable...all u can do is use ur best judgement with the training that has been taught to you. these people want officers to protect there lives...but when they do they did it the wrong way!!??? fock that..A cop shouldnt have to have to think that each move he makes could end his career the next day...that adds to more stress in a situation like this!

[Cole]

somone pass the popcorn :argue:

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Some of you cop haters kill me. These officers are family out there. They have a tough job and work under a microscope. If you put me or my family in danger you better believe me or my family is gonna take you out. NO MATTER WHAT. These officers being shot at have a family to go home to. Its to bad a child was involved, but to put the blame on the officers is assinine! He is the scum bag that opened fire. Put the blame on him, not the guys and gals that will certainly bail your sorry ass's out at one point or another in your life. Take your family, your wife, son, daughter, mom and dad. You all have guns and i open fire on YOUR FAMILY, im holding a kid what are YOU gonna do?? :idea:

[slink]

It was said on this morning on the news that police knew that he was holding the child the whole time. They knew the child was in the man's arms and yet they still opened fire on him. I am sorry, but that pisses me off! They had had a choice and I personally feel they made the wrong one by opening fire on him with the child in his arms
Just my 2 pennies worth.
Here ya go Ms Gator, and anyone else who thinks they could have done it better. http://www.porac.org/employment.html. Strap it on and go 10-8 or STFU :devil: You have no Frickin clue.

[Wally_Gator]

u know every situation could have been handled better or differently after it has taken place! but when its there point blank...each and every move is going to be unpredictable...all u can do is use ur best judgement with the training that has been taught to you. these people want officers to protect there lives...but when they do they did it the wrong way!!??? fock that..A cop shouldnt have to have to think that each move he makes could end his career the next day...that adds to more stress in a situation like this!
You are right there...
Command and control could have set things up better not to put the officers in that position. Maybe?
The impression is left from some here that:
The toddler deserved to die because the scumbag father shot a cop?
People feel for the lost child. Especially parents with young ones.
Am I glad that officers want to work in areas such as that. Hell yes..
Am I glad that they lay their lives on the line every day so I can be free.. Hell yes..
Do I thank them for the job that they do when I have a chance.. Hell yes...
Keep in mind that this incident took planning.. Enough planning to involve SWAT... Could those in charge have made better decisions? Maybe, we will find out...
Not all cops are to be held in high esteem as I have met a few bad apples..
Not everyone I meet should be held in high esteem as I have met a few bad apples..
In short... No one side if this is right or wrong.. Just alot of valid opinions...

[Nate56]

Some of you cop haters kill me. These officers are family out there. They have a tough job and work under a microscope. If you put me or my family in danger you better believe me or my family is gonna take you out. NO MATTER WHAT. These officers being shot at have a family to go home to. Its to bad a child was involved, but to put the blame on the officers is assinine! He is the scum bag that opened fire. Put the blame on him, not the guys and gals that will certainly bail your sorry ass's out at one point or another in your life. Take your family, your wife, son, daughter, mom and dad. You all have guns and i open fire on YOUR FAMILY, im holding a kid what are YOU gonna do?? :idea:
Good way to put it, now maybe some might understand a little bit clearer..

[BarryMac]

IMO, Bottom Line, the childs death is a result of the Father's asinine antics, the Father is to balme for the Childs extremly tragic death, not the Police...

[OutCole'd]

IMO, Bottom Line, the childs death is a result of the Father's asinine antics, the Father is to balme for the Childs extremly tragic death, not the Police...
Without a doubt... I am totally in agreement with this.
Why are all the people questioning the police not bashing the pos father?

[Wally_Gator]

Without a doubt... I am totally in agreement with this.
Why are all the people questioning the police not bashing the pos father?
There is no question about that and he has paid the ulitmate price for being a POS.. Who can argue that?

[NOTALENT]

You are right there...
Command and control could have set things up better not to put the officers in that position. Maybe?
The impression is left from some here that:
The toddler deserved to die because the scumbag father shot a cop?
People feel for the lost child. Especially parents with young ones.
Am I glad that officers want to work in areas such as that. Hell yes..
Am I glad that they lay their lives on the line every day so I can be free.. Hell yes..
Do I thank them for the job that they do when I have a chance.. Hell yes...
Keep in mind that this incident took planning.. Enough planning to involve SWAT... Could those in charge have made better decisions? Maybe, we will find out...
Not all cops are to be held in high esteem as I have met a few bad apples..
Not everyone I meet should be held in high esteem as I have met a few bad apples..
In short... No one side if this is right or wrong.. Just alot of valid opinions...
I dont think anyone is implying that the toddlers death was deserved...if so I pitty them.
Keep in mind that this incident took planning.. Enough planning to involve SWAT... Could those in charge have made better decisions? Maybe, we will find out...
This I dont like though...not what your saying, but whats being implied by the people and dea or whoever else is saying it...Like I said before...when your put on blast like that...unfourtantley u dont have the time to sit at a chalk board and make out a pro and con list...to see whats best..even if you could with every move made, the next can change..Im sure there are better moves that could have been made...but in no way should any swat member or officer be held accountable...they have had a perfect record since 1970!!! what more do those fockers want from them???!!!

[76ANTHONY]

think about it for one minute. look at your children and then tell me you could do that, drugs beer none of this would ever make me do something like this. oh and if the police wouldnt have acted so fast he may have killed all of them. that pos is where he belongs. in hell. the police did what they thought was right, thats enough for me to live with. these guys do put there lives on the line all the time. sadddd news for the family, huge lose :frown: :confused:

[Deano]

eventhough I respect and appreciate what the LE does for us, I think it could have been different. Just because this girl was the daughter of the scum bag doesnt mean she has less worth. What if it was your daughter in his arms? Would you think differently?
If some piece of shit is in a bank with hostages, do the police open fire on the whole fukin building? I didnt think so. They should have stood down and waited for an oportunity to put one between his eyes. Unless they cant shoot that good. (Like the suburban incedent a month ago...fukin 90 somethin shots fired and the guy lived..how funny is that.)

[hotlavey]

It was said on this morning on the news that police knew that he was holding the child the whole time. They knew the child was in the man's arms and yet they still opened fire on him. I am sorry, but that pisses me off! They had had a choice and I personally feel they made the wrong one by opening fire on him with the child in his arms
Just my 2 pennies worth.
And that's just what it's worth, 2 pennies. Are you serious? The man was shooting at them. He had already shot one cop. What other choice did they have? Do nothing and watch this low-life shoot more police, or other innocent people? Not! The crisis team had already talked with this nut for a half-hour trying to reason with him. No one wants to see innocent people harmed, much less a poor little infant, but come on, the police had no other choice.
Also my .02

[Wally_Gator]

This I dont like though...not what your saying, but whats being implied by the people and dea or whoever else is saying it...Like I said before...when your put on blast like that...unfourtantley u dont have the time to sit at a chalk board and make out a pro and con list...to see whats best..even if you could with every move made, the next can change..Im sure there are better moves that could have been made...but in no way should any swat member or officer be held accountable...they have had a perfect record since 1970!!! what more do those fockers want from them???!!!
Who knows what others want..
Me.. I want them to keep up the good work...
I want people to realize the tragedy of a innocent life lost..
I want the Officers involved to get any help they need.. They are going to be scarred for life from this...
I want people here to understand that review can help in the future.
Does that mean policy change like the Bullshit persuit crap that went on.. I definately do not think so...
There is nothing like experience for situations like this. It is unfortunate that this did happen..
I have a grandfather (retired), Uncle and close cousins that are in the force.
so, SLINK.. Take a pill..
As a father of a 2 year old toddler I feel for the loss of a innocent life at such a young age..
As a person with Family on the Force. I feel for every officer that involved that will have his gut wrenching for years over the death of the child.
BTW.. My wife feels the same way...

[76ANTHONY]

deano, sad but good point.

[NOTALENT]

eventhough I respect and appreciate what the LE does for us, I think it could have been different. Just because this girl was the daughter of the scum bag doesnt mean she has less worth. What if it was your daughter in his arms? Would you think differently?
If some piece of shit is in a bank with hostages, do the police open fire on the whole fukin building? I didnt think so. They should have stood down and waited for an oportunity to put one between his eyes. Unless they cant shoot that good. (Like the suburban incedent a month ago...fukin 90 somethin shots fired and the guy lived..how funny is that.)
so save her 1 life to lose mulitple other officers lives, destroy there families and possibly kill even more innocent people...??? Nobody is saying the girl is worthless...it sucks that this happened to her...yes.. as for them not being able to shoot well enough...thats just fockin B.S! U may as well go tell are armed forces that there doing a shitty job!! moving target with a baby being waived infront of it...what about the enviorment they were in...if they cant get a clean shot u still want them to take it...what if it would have it the kid???

[slink]

[I have a grandfather (retired), Uncle and close cousins that are in the force.
so, SLINK.. Take a pill..
Like I said :D

[THOR]

It is the fault of the father 100%. I love everyone here blaming the cops and saying they had choices. What exactly are your choices when someone is firing upon you? How clearly are you thinking? What are your thoughts regarding what is the best choice?

[HOSS]

this is a depressing thread.

[Deano]

everyone is acting like the cops where running around like chickens waiting to get shot....fukin take cover, stand down and wait..
I have seen this happen in the armed forces...guys shooting at everyone and they couldnt get a clean shot. In flys a snipper, sets up, puts a fukin bullet in his head from 500 yards..done deal. no one hurt.

[NOTALENT]

everyone is acting like the cops where running around like chickens waiting to get shot....fukin take cover, stand down and wait..
I have seen this happen in the armed forces...guys shooting at everyone and they couldnt get a clean shot. In flys a snipper, sets up, puts a fukin bullet in his head from 500 yards..done deal. no one hurt.
this isnt full metal jacket...it doesnt always work out this way... :notam:

[Big Warlock]

He was holding the baby in his arms AND shooting at the cops!!!!!!! It wasn't like he was mearly walking with the child and they shot him. Pay attention people. Sorry Mrs. Wally Gator, but child, dog, cat or whatever, you shoot at me you are going to get shot at. HE placed his own child in harms way. Sorry about the child, but maybe we stopped that gene pool from continuing also!?!? (I know, I had to say it and I am sorry!! LOL) Start flaming!!! :2purples:

[Big Warlock]

No Talent! What service were you in? I was a Cpt in the US Army. I served with the 2nd ACR and played in the first Desert Storm. M1A1!!! Republican Guard action! Now that is the combat was meant to be my friend!! :D

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

DEANO, no one said the daughter's life was worthless, you say what if he was holding my kid...i say what if he was shooting at your son or daughter or your wife, your suppose to just sit there and let him fire away at your family...i dont think so

[Nate56]

everyone is acting like the cops where running around like chickens waiting to get shot....fukin take cover, stand down and wait..
I have seen this happen in the armed forces...guys shooting at everyone and they couldnt get a clean shot. In flys a snipper, sets up, puts a fukin bullet in his head from 500 yards..done deal. no one hurt.
I like the sniper idea too... Clean and easy... BAMMMM.. Bye-bye... Good night..

[Deano]

yea no shit. I just like playing the devils advocate. In all honesty, I probably would have done the same thing. You just dont know until your in that situation and Im thankfull I wasnt. Its just a shame to see an innocent life being taken. There will always be the question and it really doesnt matter to me. It is what it is.
ok Lets go to the river.... :)

[NOTALENT]

No Talent! What service were you in? I was a Cpt in the US Army. I served with the 2nd ACR and played in the first Desert Storm. M1A1!!! Republican Guard action! Now that is the combat was meant to be my friend!! :D
No service...Been shooting since I was 5 went to a couple marksman camps and other misc things...been around alot of hardware my whole life...Closest actual thing to action I have gotten to is Paintball shirts vs. Skins... I was always a skin because I liked the pain when I got shot... :D Played in about 40 tourneys...

[NOTALENT]

ok Lets go to the river
now thats one thing I can agree with!!! :cool:

[Wally_Gator]

From what I understand...
You can be the best marksman in the world..
Then you get into a situation where people are shooting at you, your practised skills go out the window due to adrenalin.
It takes a rare person to be a marksman in such a situation.

[jstwkd]

I have to agree it is sad the girl was shot!
But You cant let stand down while man shoots out into the open public.Regardless of who he is shooting at.No one here can say what they would have done.They werent in the situation.I stand behind the police on this 100%.

[Deano]

['''

[Boozer]

everyone is acting like the cops where running around like chickens waiting to get shot....fukin take cover, stand down and wait..
I have seen this happen in the armed forces...guys shooting at everyone and they couldnt get a clean shot. In flys a snipper, sets up, puts a fukin bullet in his head from 500 yards..done deal. no one hurt.
So the cops stand down and take cover. Then what? This asshole continues to fire off his gun at them causing them injuries/fatalaties and potentialy wounding innocent bistandards in the area? Did you forget that this took place at a car dealership? Not to mention while standing down this enraged gun wielding lunatic now has the oppurtunity to go and kill everyone held hostage inside the dealership.
If some crazy ass ever takes me hostage and uses me for a shield then starts firing on cops, the cops can feel free to shoot my ass. I'd rather die then let numerous people die to save my life. PERIOD. And to think this is coming from a guy who has good reason to not like the cops.
The cops did what they did because it was what they deemed necessary to handle the situation. Whether they handled the situation appropriately is not for you or me to decide but in my opinion they didn't have a whole lot of time to think about what to do so they did what they had too.
I feel for the toddler. This is a terrible tragedy and no matter what the outcome there are going to be cops who will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they contributed to the death of a baby. A baby that was killed due to the wreckless actions of her own father.
Heres a scenario:
A guy gets his toddler and puts the baby in the car. Keep in mind this guy is shit faced drunk. The guy heads down the road and a cop sees him swerving so he lights the guy up. The guy panics and hauls ass taking off trying to run. In his effort to run he broadsides a semi and kills both himself and his child. Are the cops at fault for lighting this guy up? I mean afterall had they not tried pulling him over he wouldn't have sped up and he wouldn't have hit the truck killing himself and his child.. Right??
Stop making excuses for lunatics here people. The guy was a wacko and HE put his own child in harms way which makes him guilty and responsible for the death of this child. At least that is my opinion.

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Support law enforcement. Dont use the "bad apples" as scapegoats to defend the scumbags. These people "in the hood" that are always crying out against the police bacause there sucmbag gangbanger fukin son got beat up or shot by the cops are the same people that need and use the cops service's more than anyone. They are the first one's to sue the lapd and the city, then the next day they are calling the cops because someone is breaking into there house. LA police system is a joke because of constant law suits and protest. Let them do there job. These police pursuits are a laugh/smack in the face of the law and the citizens or our city. I say they start shooting the low lifes when they decide to they want to get on the news and come racing through our neighborhoods. Kill a couple of these punks on tv, will see how many thugs want to run after that! Dont make a joke out of our justice system, let the cops do there jobs, they are protecting us! OK i feel better...now im ready to go to the river

[Redneck]

This is a major tragedy the poor lil baby did not deserve to die. But the cops are not the one blame its the low life father (wait doesnt deserve that sperm donor) that put her in harms way. The cops that were in that incidient are probablly having some major mental problems. Shooting a bad guy messes with your mind but shooting a lil baby is beyond messing with your mind. Now the news didnt mention the officer that got shot had 5 kids. What was done had to be done to protect the community from any more harm. I would put money that not one of those officers at that incidient wanted that baby to die.
now stepping off my box

[Deano]

Heres a scenario:
A guy gets his toddler and puts the baby in the car. Keep in mind this guy is shit faced drunk. The guy heads down the road and a cop sees him swerving so he lights the guy up. The guy panics and hauls ass taking off trying to run. In his effort to run he broadsides a semi and kills both himself and his child. Are the cops at fault for lighting this guy up? I mean afterall had they not tried pulling him over he wouldn't have sped up and he wouldn't have hit the truck killing himself and his child.. Right??
If your comparing it to this situation....then the cop would have been steering the car while the drunk guy was in the back seat holding his child hostage.

[Boozer]

If your comparing it to this situation....then the cop would have been steering the car while the drunk guy was in the back seat holding his child hostage.
Whatever....
Keep making excuses for douche bags. There are plenty more out there that need people like you to deffend them and their bullshit.

[topless]

I'm not going to read all the replies but no matter what the cops did, they would have been wrong. It's sad that this country has come to this because they are there for US. They didn't show up there to shoot a baby, they showed up to protect people. This state is just way too sue happy and thats what that family wants. Did you see them? Must be their get rich quick scheme. Now I'm pissed. :eat:

[ColeTR2]

Sorry about the child, but maybe we stopped that gene pool from continuing also!?!? (I know, I had to say it and I am sorry!! LOL) Start flaming!!!
Flame Me to!! I'm glad some said it!!

[Deano]

Whatever....
Keep making excuses for douche bags. There are plenty more out there that need people like you to deffend them and their bullshit.
no fukin way bro, you got me all wrong. I say kill em all.
Not making any excuses for the actions of this guy.
This asshole continues to fire off his gun at them causing them injuries/fatalaties and potentialy wounding innocent bistandards in the area?
how many bullets do you think he had left?
If some crazy ass ever takes me hostage and uses me for a shield then starts firing on cops, the cops can feel free to shoot my ass.
really...Kill or be killed. You are choosing to be killed? Your balls are bigger than mine.
The cops did what they did because it was what they deemed necessary to handle the situation. Whether they handled the situation appropriately is not for you or me to decide but in my opinion they didn't have a whole lot of time to think about what to do so they did what they had too.
actually it is up to you and I to decide and I think they had as much time as they needed. but, like I said, I wasnt there and I probably would have done the same thing. Cops are human and make mistakes just like everyone else my friend. Shit happens/happened and I am not going make any judgments on them personally.
I actually feel really sorry for them. Killing a child, Im sure, will take a serious toll on their mental health.
God bless em. They did what they needed to do, in there opinion. not mine

[NOTALENT]

this wasnt a normal situation....homie was doped up on cocaine!!! is everyone understanding that??? who knows what he was thinking....probably the worst..

[BarryMac]

Now the news didnt mention the officer that got shot had 5 kids.
Wonder if this comment will change anyone's view on this subject, what if this as$hole killed the police officer, would anyone feel sorry for his orphaned kids???

[topless]

Wonder if this comment will change anyone's view on this subject, what if this as$hole killed the police officer, would anyone feel sorry for his orphaned kids???
They would sue the department for mental anguish.

[Deano]

this wasnt a normal situation....homie was doped up on cocaine!!!
dam..that musta been some good shiat :p
Beers on me fawkers..esp you boozer...Ill be in havasu in a couple weeks.......
Now,didnt someone have some pictures or somethin :cool:

[Caribbean Jet]

The cops had no choice but to shoot him, If they didn't take this guy out and he would have killed someone who was just a bistandard then they would be ridiculed for not taking action. They have a tough job and I stand behind what they had to do. Its a very sad situation and I wish there would have been a different out come but there wasn't. The cops are family people too.

[Wally_Gator]

Wonder if this comment will change anyone's view on this subject, what if this as$hole killed the police officer, would anyone feel sorry for his orphaned kids???
Why even go there.. I feel for all the officers that have to deal with the mental side of the whole situation... For most moral people this will mess with them for years if not the rest of their lives..

[BarryMac]

Why even go there.. I feel for all the officers that have to deal with the mental side of the whole situation... For most moral people this will mess with them for years if not the rest of their lives..
Just a little spin on the whole situation, that's all...

[Redneck]

Just a little spin on the whole situation, that's all...
always easy to be a monday morning quarterback if you were in the situation your nerves are going crazy your partner just got shot do you think you could hit this scum bag without hitting the baby. Very sad incident but I do commend the officers for not hurting any other citizens. There were 40 bullets from the scum bags gun fired and 90 from the officers. and only 3 people got shot. I think they did there job perfect they took the right amount of force to contain the problem.

[BoatPI]

This whole thing is about a get rich sceme. And to think that the mother is likely an illegal alien, frre welfare, free baby born at county hostital, free, free, free,.. oh and free lawyer who is looking for a free ride in 50% fee of any settlement.
Now time to go back to work folks so we can pay our taxes like good americans. :supp:

[XtrmWakeborder]

In my eyes the father basically killed his child not the cops. You dont use your child as a shield and shoot at the police! Simple! Very sad that the kid had to die, but i'm glad hes dead , won't put as much strain on us as sending him to jail.

[Seadog]

I cannot find any fault with the police on the scene for what happen. But too many shots were fired and every one of those cops will probably wonder if the shots he fired were the ones to hit the child. Worse, they will ID the cop who fired that fatal bullet and he will have that to deal with his entire life.
Not knocking the cops, but the city needs to learn fire coordination. Teach all of the police military urban tactics. I am seeing too much of individual reactions when what is needed is to develop a quick team coordination. And they should be using rifles instead of pistols in a standoff situation. Allow the pistol users to only protect the designated rifle men and not to fire at will.
Finally, we need to pass legislation in this country that anyone who knowingly yields a weapon at a policeman, whether he hurts them or not, is fair game to be shot by the police and no one can file a lawsuit for damages against the police involved. Even if a bystander is killed by accident.

[Heater]

Why couldn't a sniper just put one between his eyes???
News (unreliable) said it was a rifle so that might have been attempted and the guy moved.

[AirtimeLavey]

In a sitch like this, you gotta take a risk to end a potentially and apparently worsening event. Unfortunately, the risk was realized. If they had missed the child and only hit the man, they would've been heroes. I'm confident that they went into the situation assessing the risk. It's tragically sad for the loss of the little girl, and the officer will be haunted. I don't think, however, that these officers panicked and just started shooting at him. It'll be interesting to hear the results of the invest. Tough being a cop, esp. down there. :frown:

[Her454]

It was said on this morning on the news that police knew that he was holding the child the whole time. They knew the child was in the man's arms and yet they still opened fire on him. I am sorry, but that pisses me off! They had had a choice and I personally feel they made the wrong one by opening fire on him with the child in his arms
Just my 2 pennies worth.
Normally I would have to agree with you, but in this situation I have to think that the LAPD acted as they should have, or were forced to. The father put the child in harms way, NOT the officers and that is tragic, and in doing so he forced the officers to make a choice to defend themselves, and the other innocent lives that could have been lost. I would not want it to be my child, NOR would I want it to be my husband that was shot in the line of duty because of some piece of shit sperm donor that could care less about life, period. Its a sad situation all around and I dont think the LAPD will come out fairly on this one, and I bet there is not one of those officers that isn't having trouble sleeping at night because of it. Not to mention how it will effect them in their job from this day forward.

[ROZ]

Cops are in a tough position... Damed if the do, and damed if they don't... Wither way the pawns(public) will cry whatever the players(sharpton, jackson) tell them ... Too bad...

[unleashed]

This was a tough decision by the police but they definitly did the right thing. The situation was getting out of hand..the perp fired more than 40 rounds...thats 40 rounds that could have hit an innocent bystander including police officers. I told my wife last night that if I was in the same situation I would use as much restraint as possible but if the individual was trying to take me out I would fire upon him trying my best to miss the child but if it happens so be it. I have a family to come home to and a child to raise. Its a very unfortunate incident and I feel for all involved including the family of the child. Unfortunatly there will be a slew of lawsuits from the individuals. If this happens than I think the cop that was shot should sue right back after the victims win there suit(Which will happen just to appease the Latino and Black community). Yesterday there was another woman whom showed up with two kids from the perp...she said she to is hurt and will miss the father of her two children...there will be mulitiple lawsuits and whats right and wrong will be thrown out the window. Whats a real shame is the disrespect kids are taught towards officers. I remember always being taught to respect police officers and I always have. Now its the opposite they are taught that police are the enemy.
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com)

[RiverDave]

Hollywood..
People have watched way too many movies. Why couldn't a sniper just put one between his eyes?
Well... How'd you like to be that guy from "X" yds away aiming at a moving target with an infant less then 12 inches from where your trying to hit? All this while he's shooting at your friends etc.. etc.. To say that it'd be hard to pull that trigger is an understatement. You'd have to be more sure about that then anything you have been in your whole life, and do it in a panic situation.
Why can't they just shoot his legs out?
Well... Go out to the dessert and from 50' try to hit a 2 x 4 stuck into the ground.. Not super easy, but not impossible. Now have YOUR KID pick that 2 x 4 up and start swinging it through the air back and forth.. See if you can hit it. After all that, give him a gun and have him shoot back at YOU..
The 1st thought that went through my monday morning 1/4 back mind was.. Why didn't they just get 4 or 5 guys with those riot protection shields and start waking towards him..
Well.. Man puts gun towards infants head.. He either shoots infant (in which case they get sued for not acting quick enough) or the officers act in a timely fashion to try to save the infant, in which case you end up with the same scenario that already happened (and they get sued again..)
Ultimately, the officers did what they had to do. Regardless of what anyone sais, there isn't anything else they could've done. People can say.. Well why didn't they this?? and why didn't they that?? It's easy to judge a day later with all the time in the world to think about it. Ultimately though even after thinking about it, they did the right move. Nothing else could've been done outside of Hollywood.
For that I say good job to the LAPD. Sorry to hear about the baby, but good job on containing a situation before it could've gotten REALLY outta hand.
Oh and to those that say.. What if it was your kid he was holding? I ask.. what if it was your kid in the car dealership? You'd be hoping and praying that a bullet finds this guy before he got to where your kid(s)/family was holed up. If it was my kid/family in there I wouldn't care if the police used a machine gun to take him down. Infant or not. Just contain the situation as fast as possible.
They didn't put the baby their.. They did the best they could with the circumstances being what they were. There's no such thing as a magic bullet that can go around corners, and babies, etc... Unless of course your Lee Harvey Oswald..
RD

[RiverDave]

River"The Thread Killa"Dave ???

[probablecause]

this wasnt a normal situation....homie was doped up on cocaine!!! is everyone understanding that??? who knows what he was thinking....probably the worst..
Sounds pretty normal for the $shitbags there. No money for a can of raid for all of the roaches but plenty of money for dope and beer.

[riverroyal]

the swat/cop that killed the kid,he knows he pulled the trigger on the bullet.If more than one gun was fired the individual that shot that ONE bullet hopefully will never be public record,that guys is gonna be messed up his entire life now.

[truckboss]

can somebody please find out what all the cops names were.i want to send them all a case of beer.i hope when they get done getting all drunk they will call me to come piss on that fawkers grave.

[hotlavey]

can somebody please find out what all the cops names were.i want to send them all a case of beer.i hope when they get done getting all drunk they will call me to come piss on that fawkers grave.
I'll chip in on the beer.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Bottom line, the doper bastard got his kid killed just as surely as if he'd driven off a cliff on PCH with it in the car and wound up in a fireball.
BOTH TRUE: It's a shame the infant was killed, it's a blessing it won't wind up another doper or baby-factory on the welfare system.
The cops did a good job, too bad it wasn't a better job but it was good enough for me. Just how many of us are perfect 24 hours a day in EVERYTHING we touch? Any moron can monday-morning Q-back a better outcome to anything. Darn few can improve it on the spot.
Sniperisms, let's try the fact that he was apparently INSIDE a building. Makes it tough to snipe through a wall. It's almost as hard to snipe through glass, especially double or tripple layer glass as the immage you see is NOT exactly where you think it is unless you are dead perfect 90 degrees to the glass pane. I'll not bother with the fact of bullet deflection by even a single pane of glass, let alone 3.
Anyone who gripes about how a lot of cop ammo gets shot and nobody gets hit has never shot a gun like the COPS HAVE. Due to trying to protect themselves from "unintended shooting" lawsuits, nearly (if not absolutely) every LE agency in the country buys guns with very (excessively) heavy trigger pulls. Those of you with shooting experiencew, do you know what the pull required to set your firearms off is? Many do not. Has anyone here (other than cops) tried to fire a weapon with a trigger release pressure of 12 pounds? Many departments mandate between 8.5 and 12 pounds of force required to release a shot. If you have never tried to hold a firm (but not a shaking stranglehold) grip on a handgun frame and then tried to make a controlled pull of 12 freaking pounds with only 1 finger, don't DARE question the innacuracy of the cops skills. Try finger pulls on a 12-pack sometime to match the weight.
I can shoot a 5" pattern at 25 yards with my singl;e action .45 govt model 1911 clone, 3.75 pound trigger, it goes off with a breath of a pull but is quite incapable of accidental discharge. Not a shake at all from the sights before it releases. I do qualify expert with a GI M-9 9mm Berretta (piece of crap I hate), even with the heavy single action pull on it. The sights quiver so much before it lets go that the front one is a blur, and yes, I have 38 year old, 20-20 vision. I manage about a 14" pattern at the same 25 yards.
17+ years enlisted, Kansas Air National Guard, Security Forces, Traditional Guardsman, I build airplanes for a regular living, and boat, hunt, shoot for pleasure.
The cops are forced to use guns that give them fits trying for the pinpoint accuracy the armchair q-backs insist they must be able to do.
Fortunately for some, this IS a free country where everyone is entitled to an opinion. I'll be among the first to defend that right even if it is stupid, idiotic, moronish, or simply foolish and under-educated.
Go ahead and swing the flamethrowers my way, done seen enough, I'm outta here headed to the lake for the evening. See ya at the river. :cool:

[chrissy]

IMO, Bottom Line, the childs death is a result of the Father's asinine antics, the Father is to balme for the Childs extremly tragic death, not the Police...
I AGREE 100%. Any father who put their own child in harms way like he did is a cold blooded murderer.... :mad:

[truckboss]

you know something,i gotta go real bad right now.can someone please point me in the right direction i dont want it to go to waste.

[truckboss]

oh yeah one more thing, if someone would please reply to my noise thread in the drive section i wouldnt have to come over hereand give my perfect opinion.

[Her454]

oh yeah one more thing, if someone would please reply to my noise thread in the drive section i wouldnt have to come over hereand give my perfect opinion.
We dont have a "drive" section. :rolleyes: :)

[truckboss]

you know the thingy on the back of the boat.

[MagicMtnDan]

Do YOU want to be a cop?
Autopsy Results
Autopsy results earlier in the day on Wednesday showed that the toddler killed during a police gun battle with Los Angeles police died from a bullet fired by an officer's rifle.
County coroner's spokesman Craig Harvey said 19-month-old Suzie Pena died from a single gunshot wound to the head and her father, Jose Pena, died of multiple gunshot wounds. Both were killed in a shootout at Pena's auto repair business on Sunday.
Harvey said a toxicological examination to determine whether Pena had drugs or alcohol in his system will take several weeks.
Police Chief William Bratton, who had said earlier that it was likely that a police bullet killed the child, conducted a news conference about the findings on Wednesday afternoon.
"Our hearts, prayers, thoughts go out to the family, particularly the mother," Bratton said.
Although Bratton has adamantly maintained that Pena was responsible for his and his daughter's deaths, he said the realization that it was a police officer who actually shot the girl was hard to take.
"Believe me, as chief of police, and for the officers involved, it is very tough to deal with that," Bratton said.
Ultimately, the chief said, he expects an investigation now under way will clear all of the officers involved in the gunbattle.
"There is nothing I'm aware of based on the investigation to date that would lead me to believe that there is any criminal actions that would arise out of this against members of the Los Angeles Police Department," he said.
Bratton said some officers that were involved are in therapy and others may not return to work.
The results were released as Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa called for patience from the community Wednesday as police investigate.
"It's clear that this is a tragedy. There's nobody that refutes that," Villaraigosa said outside a conference at USC Wednesday morning. "But what we need to do is get to the bottom of it. What we need to do is ensure that we find out the facts so that we're not creating hysteria, we're not creating a climate of uncertainty and fear."
"Right now what we need is to calm the waters," Villaraigosa said.
"From what I can tell, (the autopsy) may confirm that the child was killed by police," Bratton said Tuesday. "That doesn't change anything. It just, again, unfortunately adds to the emotional toll of our officers who faced an incredible situation that day."
Bratton's comments came amid a war of words between authorities and the Pena's family.
Joined by community activists, the toddler's mother, Lorena Lopez, and Pena's brother, German Pena, condemned the SWAT team's conduct in the standoff, saying police ignored pleas to be patient for the child's sake. German Pena said police rebuffed requests from the family to be allowed to reason with the gunman and added his brother had been "a good person."
But Bratton called Pena a "cold-blooded killer," and said Lopez had filed a police report just hours before the shooting, claiming Pena had threatened to kill her and her family.
"This father is not a father of the year, as the family is now attempting to portray him," Bratton said. "I refuse to allow this department to be maligned in the sense of now trying to portray an individual who held his own daughter out as a human shield as somehow a hero. This guy is not a hero."
Bratton stood by those remarks Wednesday, saying, "I tell it as it is from my perspective."
The chief noted that Pena had a criminal record, although he would not elaborate.
The family, meanwhile, has retained attorney Luis Carrillo for a possible lawsuit against the city. Carrillo Tuesday called the SWAT team's conduct part of "a long history of excessive force against minorities."
The standoff began just before 4 p.m. Sunday when police responded to an "unknown trouble" 911 call near 104th Street and Avalon Boulevard, where Pena lived and operated an auto sales business.
When officers arrived, they were immediately fired upon by the suspect and returned fire, Bratton said.
Bratton said gunfire occurred three times during the course of the ensuing 2½-hour standoff -- twice on Avalon Boulevard and then in a back alley near the rear entrance to the building about 6:30 p.m. He said 11 officers fired roughly 90 rounds, while Pena fired as many as 40.
The final outbreak of gunfire occurred as SWAT officers moved into position in the back of the building after rescuing Pena's 17-year-old stepdaughter, Bratton said.
Pena emerged from the building holding his daughter, Susie, in front of him as a shield as he shot at police, wounding 39-year-old SWAT Officer Daniel Sanchez in the right shoulder, according to LAPD officials. The officer was treated at a hospital and released the next day.

[MagicMtnDan]

When was the last time you ran around shooting up the neighborhood and then came out at police with your 19-month old daughter in your arms while you had a pistol in your hand? When you did that did you expect to not be shot??? :hammer2:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Indeed Dan., Indeed. :cool:

[little rowe boat]

That whole situation,just PISSES me off.

[Kilrtoy]

Screw the family,
HOW DO YOU THINK THAT COP IS FEELING RIGHT NOW
Most likely will end on on the bottle, may have a failed marriage behind this, lose his kids and maybe eventually his life...
Right now there is no one being harder on him, than himself...
I feel sorry for him and what is going on in his mind.....
There is not enough support to clear his mind or life time of scars he will endure.......

[Burley1]

You're kidding, right?
No shit, don't even say it that POS made it all happen when he pick up his kid, and let's not forget he fired on the cops :mad:

[Redneck]

Screw the family,
HOW DO YOU THINK THAT COP IS FEELING RIGHT NOW
Most likely will end on on the bottle, may have a failed marriage behind this, lose his kids and maybe eventually his life...
Right now there is no one being harder on him, than himself...
I feel sorry for him and what is going on in his mind.....
There is not enough support to clear his mind or life time of scars he will endure.......
you hit the nail right on the head i bet families fall apart and officers resign due to the grief they feel this loser used his baby as a human sheild and the cops did what they are trained. No one thinks about the officer shot has 5 kids and a wife. He was there defending the comunity risking his life and some low life tried to kill him while using a baby to protect himself Fu#$ the suspect and pray for the lil girl.
Im done

[probablecause]

Screw the family,
HOW DO YOU THINK THAT COP IS FEELING RIGHT NOW
Most likely will end on on the bottle, may have a failed marriage behind this, lose his kids and maybe eventually his life...
Right now there is no one being harder on him, than himself...
I feel sorry for him and what is going on in his mind.....
There is not enough support to clear his mind or life time of scars he will endure.......
What took you so long to get into this one?????

[C-2]

Screw the family,
Screw the mother and family? She somehow deserved to have her child kidnapped and killed?
Pretty harsh.
I agree with your remaining comments, that's a pretty heavy load to be walking around with.

[Kilrtoy]

Screw the mother and family? She somehow deserved to have her child kidnapped and killed?
Pretty harsh.
I agree with your remaining comments, that's a pretty heavy load to be walking around with.
There is alot more going on that YOU just dont know about and NO I will not share it either, Screw the family....
The only two innocent people in that family is the little girl and the daughter he tried to kill who called the cops on him....

[JB in so cal]

There is alot more going on that YOU just dont know about and NO I will not share it either, Screw the family....
The only two innocent people in that family is the little girl and the daughter he tried to kill who called the cops on him....
...ohhhhh, what do you know :rollside:
All bullsh** aside. No one can ever begin to know how the cop that fired the bullet that killed the little girl feels/will feel/should feel. It may very well be a long time, if ever, that that person feels "whole" again.
LE carries more of a burden in these cases than most people know!

[C-2]

The only two innocent people in that family is the little girl and the daughter he tried to kill who called the cops on him....
I guess it's a start :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Why didn't you just say that in the first place :hammer2: :hammer2:

[Kilrtoy]

The shit bags are protesting right now.. WASTING MORE OF MY TAX DOLLARS...
The whole damn city is on TAC Alert now because of this shit bags family

[RiverPirate]

Does anyone remmber Colubine???
The cops waited too long in Columbine while all of the kids were killed. They were doing what they and the public at the time thought was the right thing to do. Mount up your guys, contain the location, wait for the SWAT Team, access the situation, make a plan and then execute it (basically). Was standard practice back then. That wasn't good enough, there was obvious flaws with that tactical approach, people were dying. So what did they learn, what did the puiblic demand. You have to take action right away when you have an active shooter, you can't sit back and think about a nice and safe way to save the A$$hole from killing his kid or someone else.
So now, what are the police trained to do based on the lessons of Columbine when you have an Active Shooter? You have to confront the POS before he does kill someone. Thats what the public demanded and expects today.
Tomorrow, after all of the Monday morning second guessing this obviously wasn't the right way to do it either. :mad:
F him and his whole family. I fell sorry for his child and worse for the copper who did what he had to do. You can never win in these situations. Oh ya, did I say F him and his whole family......I feel better now.