Shoes

[Mohavekid]

I recently put on shoe and ride plate kit from Hi-Tech on my berk "e" pump in my Sanger 20.5 Mini-cruiser.
The idea was to cure the nasty porpoise I have at mid range speeds. I still have the porpoise, and I now have some handling quirks when letting off the gas after a high speed run. As I let off the gas, the boat will get very squirrely and try to turn one way or the other.
Is this caused by the shoe? The shoe has no shims under it, and it is roughly even with the rest of the keel due to the recessed nature of the "e" pump installation.
Do any of you pump guru's have some thoughts on causes or solutions?

[cyclone]

I recently put on shoe and ride plate kit from Hi-Tech on my berk "e" pump in my Sanger 20.5 Mini-cruiser.
The idea was to cure the nasty porpoise I have at mid range speeds. I still have the porpoise, and I now have some handling quirks when letting off the gas after a high speed run. As I let off the gas, the boat will get very squirrely and try to turn one way or the other.
Is this caused by the shoe? The shoe has no shims under it, and it is roughly even with the rest of the keel due to the recessed nature of the "e" pump installation.
Do any of you pump guru's have some thoughts on causes or solutions?
Put a 3-4-foot long straight edge on the keel and verify that the leading edge of the shoe is indeed above the keel line. Its a good place to start. If the edge is below the keel line then your boat will buck and hook when letting off the gas. Might be the condition you're describing. Another problem might be that your ride plate angle is too great and the boat is falling off the keel at high speeds. Verify the ride plate angle using an angle finder that is zero'd against the flat part of the shoe. If its more than 4 degrees it might be causing your handling issues especially if you are driving with a place diverter or other trim device in the up position. You might want to call Duane since he sold you the parts.

[Mohavekid]

Thanks.
The shoe does stick down about a 1/16 of an inch below the keel. I have tried adjusting the plate up and down by using washers between the plate and cradle with no real difference. It is currently set at 0*. Raising the plate only makes the mid range porpoise worse, and it takes longer to settle down when you hammer it. Lowering the plate does not eliminate the porpoise.
Here's a couple of pics of my wife playing with it yesterday.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1177100_6684.JPG
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1177100_6685.JPG

[Duane HTP]

Start grinding off of the bottom of the shoe until the leading edge of the shoe is even with the keel. Try this first and let us know what happens. There are no two of those kind of pumps installed at the same level. It will take some tweeking.

[Mohavekid]

Thanks for answering my post Duane.
When you say grind the shoe, do you mean the side that bolts to the pump making the entire shoe thinner, or the side that faces the floor, just grinding on the leading edge??

[Mohavekid]

Anybody else with thoughts?

[Duane HTP]

Grind up from the floor side. Make the biting edge of the shoe higher in the boat. (above keel line a little). Also check your PM.

[Mohavekid]

Floor side. Got it.
Just on the biting edge or should I grind the outer edges too?
Got your PM. Thanks, I'll get back to you once I get a cheap split bowl.

[Duane HTP]

Try the biting edge only first. Then go to removing the two guide runners later. One thing at a time, you know.

[Mohavekid]

Thanks Duane.
I'll pull it off next week and start the metal flying.

[pops1]

I recently put on shoe and ride plate kit from Hi-Tech on my berk "e" pump in my Sanger 20.5 Mini-cruiser.
The idea was to cure the nasty porpoise I have at mid range speeds. I still have the porpoise, and I now have some handling quirks when letting off the gas after a high speed run. As I let off the gas, the boat will get very squirrely and try to turn one way or the other.
Is this caused by the shoe? The shoe has no shims under it, and it is roughly even with the rest of the keel due to the recessed nature of the "e" pump installation.
Do any of you pump guru's have some thoughts on causes or solutions? To me porpoise and shoe in a E seem odd. I don't think your running fast enough for a pop off valve-yet what you describe sounds like a dynamic head condition. if your running in the 80s maybe so! Did this change the porpoise condition at all! and did this kit add a full ride plate to it. I think you will find you have a 1/2" or so inset delta bottom on yours. If so the Keel position will not be a good rule here as you may well require far more shoe then most or even a backcut shoe. You need to know what kind of pressure you are seeing on shut down and running before you go much further. If your boat is stuffing its nose in the water and rear is washing out you do have a problem. Dave @ Aggressor Jets (888) 246-5075

[Squirtin Thunder]

Is this yours ???
If not do you have the same bottom ???
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2311Pict0555-med.jpghttp://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2311Pict0554-med.jpg
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2311Pict0553-med.jpghttp://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2311Pict0552-med.jpg

[Mohavekid]

Pops1, current top speed is in the low 60's. The plate is a full length deal, 22 inches long if I remember correctly. The biting edge of the shoe is 1/16 to 1/8 below the keel line when using a straight edge. There is a very small delta pad about 8 inches wide and extending 6-8 inches forward of the throat of the intake. I'll try to take some pics to show what it looks like.
The mid range porpoise has not changed at all by adding the shoe and extended plate. The porpoise is somewhat weight dependent. With a lot of passenger weight in the rear of the boat the porpoise is much more severe and cannot be eliminated with the use of the diverter at RPM's between 3500 and 4500.
At full throttle, the ride is aired out and very stable. When letting off the gas, the turn is not violent or sharp, but is unsettling.
Squirtin Thunder, no that is not my boat. The outside portions of the bottom and the strakes are very similar, but the keel is not as flat as the picture you posted.

[Squirtin Thunder]

Pops1, current top speed is in the low 60's. The plate is a full length deal, 22 inches long if I remember correctly. The biting edge of the shoe is 1/16 to 1/8 below the keel line when using a straight edge. There is a very small delta pad about 8 inches wide and extending 6-8 inches forward of the throat of the intake. I'll try to take some pics to show what it looks like.
The mid range porpoise has not changed at all by adding the shoe and extended plate. The porpoise is somewhat weight dependent. With a lot of passenger weight in the rear of the boat the porpoise is much more severe and cannot be eliminated with the use of the diverter at RPM's between 3500 and 4500.
At full throttle, the ride is aired out and very stable. When letting off the gas, the turn is not violent or sharp, but is unsettling.
Squirtin Thunder, no that is not my boat. The outside portions of the bottom and the strakes are very similar, but the keel is not as flat as the picture you posted.
Can you take some pics of the bottom of the boat and post them please ???

[Mohavekid]

Here's a picture of the rear.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1177sangerrear.JPG
I'll see what I can do about getting some pics of the bottom.

[Squirtin Thunder]

Here's a picture of the rear.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1177sangerrear.JPG
I'll see what I can do about getting some pics of the bottom.
I see !!! That is the newer bottom !!! Now I know what we are taking about !!! Yours has a faster bottom on it than the one I posted.
Thanks
Jim

[Mohavekid]

Here are the pics of the intake, shoe and rideplate.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1177100_6721.JPG
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1177100_6735.JPG
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1177100_6738.JPG
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1177100_6736.JPG
Sorry about the crappy pics, my 11 year old took them as I'm too fat to fit under the trailer.

[Squirtin Thunder]

To prevent any cracking I would fill the holes in the suction piece with Sea Goin Putty !!!!
Second I would send that shoe to Jack or Duane and have it modified a bit. What I mean is have it turned into a back cut shoe.
There are others that can explain better.

[Duane HTP]

Squirt
Thunder, you are absolutely right. That shoe is too deep on that boat. The reason is that the pump is set too deep in the boat. Look at the left side of the shoe in the picture. See that piece of suction housing showing. That pump should be up in the boat to where that is flush with the boat bottom. That's one of the problems with e pumps, they are very seldom set in the boat exactly the same twice in a row. Now that I see what's going on here, send that shoe back to me and I will change the location of the biting edge. These E-Shoes are just like a lot of other performance parts that you can buy for your boat. They are a good part to start to work with, but each one usually needs some adjusting or tweaking. Send it back, and I'll see if I can help you. Duane HTP

[Duane HTP]

I also have a top loader that I would like for you to try along with that shoe. It has helped some boats. Duane HTP

[Mohavekid]

Thanks for the input and advice Duane.
I'm leaving next week for the CBBB and a week at Lake Mohave afterwards.
I'll pull the shoe when I get back and send it to you. I'll also talk to you about a loader.