Flying J's "Hot Fuel" ripoff...

[HighRoller]

Since I know a lot of you travel through places where Flying J is, I thought you'd be interested in their newest ripoff scheme.
It seems that somehow, someway, Flying J is storing their fuel (and gas) at elevated temperatures. Why? Well, for those who don't know physics, fuel and gasoline expand with a raise in temperature. I'm sure many of you have filled up your boat under a nice cool canopy at the gas station and been shocked to see the gas puking out the filler neck later while it sits in the sun. This is due to heat expansion. Diesel tanks on trucks are stamped with a warning not to exceed 95% capacity for this exact reason.
So here's how it works in reverse; you fill up at Flying J with 20 gallons which comes out of the pump at between 85 and 100 degrees. By comparison, the average gas/fuel temp is between 55 and 70 degrees. Now, if the gas cools in your tank it will contract and VIOLA! You have 10-15% less fuel than you paid for. If it's hot outside and the temp stays the same you still lose because the cooler gas from other stations woud have swelled while Flying J's stuff would stay the same volume.
Several of my O/O buddies have verified this, as well as the Owner Operator Independant Driver Association, who did a study and took temperature readings. This practice is not illegal, but I wanted to let as many people know that it is going on at many of their stations. This isn't their first ripoff scheme and I'm sure it won't be the last.

[NashvilleBound]

Thanks for the heads up....

[riverroyal]

if their storage tanks are under ground like everyone elses then they would need to be heated??From the storage tank to your vehicle there isnt enough volume of fuel to heat to make a diffence is there?..Im no expert,but it would sound like they would need to heat the entire tank to make it expand,to heat a storage tank underground would be crazy,,,,,i need to re-read your post,,hang on

[riverroyal]

so their fuel is hotter than everyone elses,it is cheap,ive never stopped at the one in Blythe,its so cheap i was always affraid the diesel would have water in it or something.

[Freak]

so their fuel is hotter than everyone elses,it is cheap,ive never stopped at the one in Blythe,its so cheap i was always affraid the diesel would have water in it or something.
If you see truckers fueling then not to worry. They would put the word out to each other.

[riverroyal]

theres always a line there

[HocusPocus]

up until a few years ago i was a long haul truck driver and i have never heard this story until now.

[HighRoller]

Not always true. Only a very small percentage of the truckers have the necessity to calculate their mileage closely enough to notice a 10-15% drop. Even fewer of them who have the need actually do. But all the guys who have their shyt together avoid Flying J like the plague since the ownership change a few years ago. Between the prices in the C store, restaurant and their Visa surcharge ripoff it's not worth patronizing them any more.

[ryantparks]

I always stop at the 1 in barstow to top off with diesel and the place is packed with truckers.

[2Driver]

I got hot gas once but it was from jalapeño & fish taco.... and it did expand in my tank. :D

[Havasu Hangin']

So how are they heating the fuel?

[riverroyal]

thats what im wondering,,,,its kinda tough to do that underground,the cost would be through the roof,plus they would have had to do it when they dropped the tanks in the ground,,just doesnt add up

[Wild Horses]

Not always true. Only a very small percentage of the truckers have the necessity to calculate their mileage closely enough to notice a 10-15% drop. Even fewer of them who have the need actually do. But all the guys who have their shyt together avoid Flying J like the plague since the ownership change a few years ago. Between the prices in the C store, restaurant and their Visa surcharge ripoff it's not worth patronizing them any more.
I would like to know who the ownership changed to. Jay Call died in a plane crash but he was not hands on running the business at that time.
And the Visa surcharge is only if you use the trucker pumps not if you use the pick up truck pumps.
Clint

[CornWater]

Since I know a lot of you travel through places where Flying J is, I thought you'd be interested in their newest ripoff scheme.
It seems that somehow, someway, Flying J is storing their fuel (and gas) at elevated temperatures. Why? Well, for those who don't know physics, fuel and gasoline expand with a raise in temperature. I'm sure many of you have filled up your boat under a nice cool canopy at the gas station and been shocked to see the gas puking out the filler neck later while it sits in the sun. This is due to heat expansion. Diesel tanks on trucks are stamped with a warning not to exceed 95% capacity for this exact reason.
So here's how it works in reverse; you fill up at Flying J with 20 gallons which comes out of the pump at between 85 and 100 degrees. By comparison, the average gas/fuel temp is between 55 and 70 degrees. Now, if the gas cools in your tank it will contract and VIOLA! You have 10-15% less fuel than you paid for. If it's hot outside and the temp stays the same you still lose because the cooler gas from other stations woud have swelled while Flying J's stuff would stay the same volume.
Several of my O/O buddies have verified this, as well as the Owner Operator Independant Driver Association, who did a study and took temperature readings. This practice is not illegal, but I wanted to let as many people know that it is going on at many of their stations. This isn't their first ripoff scheme and I'm sure it won't be the last.
15-20% off of a 20 degree temp. difference... ummmm no.. not even close

[HighRoller]

I would guess that they bring the fuel in at the elevated temperature because it never stays in the tanks long enough to cool much. They go through 100-150K gallons a day, with the deliveries coming in 3-10K gallons at a time so the same fuel never stays in there long. Wouldn't be too hard to do when you're facing that kind of turnover in product. I haven't heard as of yet if this is happening in Cali because the study is still ongoing. I know that in just the three first locations they tested, their fuel was an average of 93 degrees and the truck stops nearby had an average of 67 degrees.
As far as the Visa surcharge, it is the reason I stopped doing business with FJ altogether. First off, it is against the rules of the Visa merchant agreement to charge a higher price for credit card transactions than cash because it devalues the Visa card. Second, it is clearly stated that CREDIT CARD transactions will be surcharged, but I used a debit card which is not the same because they get their money immediately. Nevertheless, they didn't care so I took my $4-5K a month elsewhere. The fact that they do it to truckers only and not regular motorists is even more disgusting.

[riverroyal]

good heads up,,,maybe china will buy them

[HocusPocus]

i just did a search of the net looking for something related to this story. you would think if it was a problem there would be stories all over the trucker networks about it especially if its an illegal practice. i just got off the phone with a neighbor who owns 6 trucks and he hasn't heard of this either.
all truckstops overcharge in their stores.. just try to find one that doesn't.

[Wonderboy]

What kind of "business" do you do with them?

[Havasu Hangin']

So if there gas is hotter, it's probably because they go through it quicker (less time to cool). All stations get it delivered the same way...
...unless you are saying that Flying J has heating elements in their tankers? :eek:

[Wonderboy]

So if there gas is hotter, it's probably because they go through it quicker (less time to cool). All stations get it delivered the same way...
...unless you are saying that Flying J has heating elements in their tankers? :eek:
That sounds safe! :messedup: LOL!

[HCS]

So your saying if you fill your tank to 3/4s with their hot gas, then go park your boat in a nice cool garage and check for fuel level, your fuel gauge will read that you have less gas. :idea: :supp:

[Tom Brown]

So how are they heating the fuel?
If I were doing it, I'd go with a couple of 6 volt golf cart batteries and some 16 gauge wire. I'd probably go with a sweet billet holder from Froggy too. :idea:

[phebus]

And, are you saying that on a hot day, I would get more mileage on a tank of gas because due to expansion, I actually have more fuel? :confused:

[Tom Brown]

And, are you saying that on a hot day, I would get more mileage on a tank of gas because due to expansion, I actually have more fuel? :confused:
That should compensate for the added drag of running the A/C or having the window down. :idea:
Nature is an excellent compensator. :)

[Tom Brown]

So your saying if you fill your tank to 3/4s with their hot gas, then go park your boat in a nice cool garage and check for fuel level, your fuel gauge will read that you have less gas. :idea: :supp:
Sounds right. Yesterday I filled on the dock in the scorching heat. By the time I checked the gauge last night in the cool evening, I was down to 1/4 tank.

[Wonderboy]

And, are you saying that on a hot day, I would get more mileage on a tank of gas because due to expansion, I actually have more fuel? :confused:
Think of it as a bridge. They have expansion joints to compensate for temperature changes. :hammerhea :D

[phebus]

I guess I am going to have to install a tank heater on my truck so I can get 10-15% better fuel mileage. :D

[HCS]

Sounds right. Yesterday I filled on the dock in the scorching heat. By the time I checked the gauge last night in the cool evening, I was down to 1/4 tank.
It gets hot up there? :notam:

[Wonderboy]

Sounds right. Yesterday I filled on the dock in the scorching heat. By the time I checked the gauge last night in the cool evening, I was down to 1/4 tank.
That's some serious expansion!! Or contraction :confused:

[HCS]

I guess I am going to have to install a tank heater on my truck so I can get 10-15% better fuel mileage. :D
That's a damn good idea. We could make up some tank heaters. :idea:

[HCS]

That's some serious expansion!! Or contraction :confused:
Or a bladder leak. :D

[Tom Brown]

I think there's something to this theory because my boat definitely uses more fuel when it's hot out. :idea:

[Tom Brown]

It gets hot up there? :notam:
It was about 115F here yesterday.

[Wonderboy]

I think there's something to this theory because my boat definitely uses more fuel when it's hot out. :idea:
Yeah, you deffinitely sweat more when it's hot out.

[Tom Brown]

Yeah, you deffinitely sweat more when it's hot out.
My snow blower, on the other hand, uses much less fuel when it's hot.... so WTF?

[Wonderboy]

My snow blower, on the other hand, uses much less fuel when it's hot.... so WTF?
You have a snow blower??!! How much to rent one of those? So everytime it snows out you get.....someone else to blow your snow?

[Rexone]

It was about 115F here yesterday.
Yeah, and gas in Canada is about $1.30 gal (cool) right? :hammerhea

[TPI]

And, are you saying that on a hot day, I would get more mileage on a tank of gas because due to expansion, I actually have more fuel? :confused:
Thats what I was wondering...................So I wonder which car will go farther:
Car #1 Full tank of hot fuel?
Car #2 Full tank of cool fuel?
Sounds like a brain teaser to me.

[Rexone]

Thats what I was wondering...................So I wonder which car will go farther:
Car #1 Full tank of hot fuel?
Car #2 Full tank of cool fuel?
Sounds like a brain teaser to me.
Hot gas makes less power. Only so much power to be had from a molecule of gas hot or cold. It all evens out in terms of power. Just don't buy hot.
This is why racers like to keep their fuel cool, on ice, etc, till right before they run. Yields more power (molecules packed tighter = more dense, unlike Hoolign's brain where molecules are packed looser - less dense = less power).
I checked the weather too Brown. Last time you saw 115F was your trip to Parker in 03. :D

[phebus]

I think I'll just route my exhaust to exit right at my tank. :D :D :D

[Rexone]

There's a solution to this flying J thing too. Take Tom Brown with you on your trip. Have him go inside the flying J store and argue with the attendent regarding the credit card surcharge which is unlawful while you pull the cover off the pump and pack it in dry ice while you pump your gas. Done deal.

[CornWater]

Think of it as a bridge. They have expansion joints to compensate for temperature changes. :hammerhea :D
So from High Rollers theory, a 100' span would expand/contract about 15-20 feet... :D

[ratso]

So from High Rollers theory, a 100' span would expand/contract about 15-20 feet... :D
...tough crowd today. :D

[Wonderboy]

So from High Rollers theory, a 100' span would expand/contract about 15-20 feet... :D
NOOOO.....You get less GAS mileage! :D

[phebus]

No, you get more mileage, but the roads are longer, so it's a wash. :D

[bgchuby01]

highroller I think that both of your oars are not geting into the water. I had 28 semi's fueling there for years and never had a problem. Most of the large truck stops store their fuel underground. so are you saying that if you fuel at a flying J in the winter you will take advantage of them? I think you need to go back and drink some more of that river water. flying J's are some of the busiest stops in the country. you need to crawl back on your bayliner and have another beer

[Fozzy]

This is not true because of two important points.
1. You can't heat flammable liquid in an underground storage tank.
2. You can't heat flammable liquid in a tanker truck.

[HighRoller]

Geez, I agree this is a tough crowd. So I guess OOIDA, a very large and prestigious organization that suppoorts O/O's, would risk making fools of themselves by publishing an article like this in a magazine with nationwide circulation? It's not like I have all day to sit around and make up stories to entertain you guys with. I was giving people something to watch out for that may or may not be happening in their area. It definitely is or has been happening at several stops with documented proof, so who's to say what's next. The fact is that hot fuel will give you worse mileage, and that repeated incidents of this happening at Flying J have been recorded. What you do with the information beyond that is up to you. Yeah, Flying J gets a lot of business but what are the choices? We're down to about 3 or 4 big chains of truckstops so all of them are crowded.

[ratso]

Geez, I agree this is a tough crowd. So I guess OOIDA, a very large and prestigious organization that suppoorts O/O's, would risk making fools of themselves by publishing an article like this in a magazine with nationwide circulation? It's not like I have all day to sit around and make up stories to entertain you guys with. I was giving people something to watch out for that may or may not be happening in their area. It definitely is or has been happening at several stops with documented proof, so who's to say what's next. The fact is that hot fuel will give you worse mileage, and that repeated incidents of this happening at Flying J have been recorded. What you do with the information beyond that is up to you. Yeah, Flying J gets a lot of business but what are the choices? We're down to about 3 or 4 big chains of truckstops so all of them are crowded.
I agree... don't shoot the messenger!!! :D

[Rexone]

Geez, I agree this is a tough crowd. So I guess OOIDA, a very large and prestigious organization that suppoorts O/O's, would risk making fools of themselves by publishing an article like this in a magazine with nationwide circulation? It's not like I have all day to sit around and make up stories to entertain you guys with. I was giving people something to watch out for that may or may not be happening in their area. It definitely is or has been happening at several stops with documented proof, so who's to say what's next. The fact is that hot fuel will give you worse mileage, and that repeated incidents of this happening at Flying J have been recorded. What you do with the information beyond that is up to you. Yeah, Flying J gets a lot of business but what are the choices? We're down to about 3 or 4 big chains of truckstops so all of them are crowded.
HR don't take ***boat forum too seriously after all we are just a bunch of retards sitting around while the smart peeps are out boating. The OOIDA I'm sure may be onto something, I'd be interested as to the reason FJ's fuel is so much hotter than all the competitors fuel. Do they store it above ground or something (which would explain it)? If they actually are heating it some way artifically to inflate pricing then that would be a big no no I'd think.
I'd think the cc companies would be all over that surcharge deal too.

[SummitKarl]

ok there is some truth to this, yes gas expands under heat, and yes you do actually get less gas than you pay for, if you were to say buy gas in AZ at lets say 4pmHOT then if you bought gas at 4amWARM ,this is a well known and TV broadcast fact in AZ.
THERE IS NO WAY THEY ARE HEATING THEIR TANKS
1) even if they did HEAT the gas the cost of heating it prohibits it
and it would have to be some sort of HOD unit hideing some where
2) AIN"T NO ONE GOING TO INSTALL IT FOR THEM
3) EPA (randomly) checks the pumps by measured volume dispensed, next time you fill up check the sticker on the pump if it's more than 6 months old, move on to another pump.

[HCS]

ok there is some truth to this, yes gas expands under heat, and yes you do actually get less gas than you pay for, if you were to say buy gas in AZ at lets say 4pmHOT then if you bought gas at 4amWARM ,this is a well known and TV broadcast fact in AZ.
THERE IS NO WAY THEY ARE HEATING THEIR TANKS
1) even if they did HEAT the gas the cost of heating it prohibits it
and it would have to be some sort of HOD unit hideing some where
2) AIN"T NO ONE GOING TO INSTALL IT FOR THEM
3) EPA (randomly) checks the pumps by measured volume dispensed, next time you fill up check the sticker on the pump if it's more than 6 months old, move on to another pump.
What? You don't believe it either? :D
Even if the gas is hot from the weather. I don't believe for a minute that it would really make that much difference. Say 10 or 15 percent. I might believe a little bit but not that much.

[uvindex]

Since I know a lot of you travel through places where Flying J is, I thought you'd be interested in their newest ripoff scheme.If you're going to post a cockamamie story like this, it might be helpful if you would cite the source of your information, rather than just stating it as fact, with zero backup, zero evidence, and zero references. :)

[Rexone]

So from High Rollers theory, a 100' span would expand/contract about 15-20 feet... :D
I have an idea for a small cylindrical shaped electric blanket I'm thinking about marketing... :redface: ;)
I figure hotdog vendors will just eat these things up.

[HighRoller]

If you're going to post a cockamamie story like this, it might be helpful if you would cite the source of your information, rather than just stating it as fact, with zero backup, zero evidence, and zero references. :)
I'm pretty sure I already mentioned the official source is OOIDA. Unfortunately this article is not one that is in their archives. If you go to their website, click on LandLine magazine, click on archives and select June 2005 you'll see the cover of the magazine with the teaser for the article. And yes, they do have a legal department so I highly doubt this is a "cockamamie" story, as you put it. They do business with a much higher degree of integrity than Flying Joke does.

[SummitKarl]

What? You don't believe it either? :D
Even if the gas is hot from the weather. I don't believe for a minute that it would really make that much difference. Say 10 or 15 percent. I might believe a little bit but not that much.
nope it's B.S. some truth but more like 1% - 1.5% if that!!
actually I have bought (HOT!!! 105 oct) at Terribles one evening (their tank was low) and good stuff floats to the top!!!, it kicked my idle up almost 400 rpm, I thought something was wrong, but the next morning all was back to normal.

[HighRoller]

Don't forget, there are two factors at work here. Even if you don't actually see a 10% increase in fuel volume, heated fuel will also be less efficient. So I don't see that a 10-15% reduction in mileage is unbelievable. I'd love to go into vapor pressure and flash point and all that but I'd rather go drink beer. :D

[Fozzy]

ok there is some truth to this, yes gas expands under heat, and yes you do actually get less gas than you pay for, if you were to say buy gas in AZ at lets say 4pmHOT then if you bought gas at 4amWARM ,this is a well known and TV broadcast fact in AZ.
THERE IS NO WAY THEY ARE HEATING THEIR TANKS
1) even if they did HEAT the gas the cost of heating it prohibits it
and it would have to be some sort of HOD unit hideing some where
2) AIN"T NO ONE GOING TO INSTALL IT FOR THEM
3) EPA (randomly) checks the pumps by measured volume dispensed, next time you fill up check the sticker on the pump if it's more than 6 months old, move on to another pump.
Also add the Uniform Fire Code would prohibit it.

[uvindex]

I'm pretty sure I already mentioned the official source is OOIDA. You posted OOIDA as a source five hours after your original post, which is what I was referring to. The teaser mentions a "Heated Debate." So what is the debate discussed in the article? Your post doesn't mention any debate, it simply tells of "Flying J's newest ripoff scheme." Are those words in the article or are you editorializing? (it's pretty obvious that you have it in for that company)

[HighRoller]

The "heated debate" has to do with the pumps. Built in to every pump is a digital device that can compensate for volume at a given temperature so that heat or cold doesn't affect price per gallon. As I mentioned before, it's not illegal to sell fuel at an elevated temp so the only recourse is to make it mandatory for gas retailers to enable this device so we all get our money's worth in any climate.
I don't "have it in" for FJ, because I believe every person or entity has the opportunity to do the right thing even if they don't have to. In my book, what comes around goes around. Flying J was the only truckstop chain to price gouge in the hours after 9-11. That made me doubt their integrity. The visa card thing was the final straw for me. Flying J is very unfriendly to independant owner operators and that is why I won't deal with them ever again. They were riding high for a while with super low fuel prices, and started building stops everywhere. Now, that expansion has caught up with them. Their prices aren't that great anymore and the prices in their store and restaurant have gone through the roof. $10 for a cheeseburger and a coke? I don't think so. But they can charge whatever they want because my money doesn't go to them.
They'll get what they deserve one day. Just because they are crowded doesn't mean they offer good service. Like I said, many company drivers have to stop there. Anyone who watches their dollar closely knows that Flying J is unhealthy for their bottom line.

[HighRoller]

You posted OOIDA as a source five hours after your original post, which is what I was referring to. The teaser mentions a "Heated Debate." So what is the debate discussed in the article? Your post doesn't mention any debate, it simply tells of "Flying J's newest ripoff scheme." Are those words in the article or are you editorializing? (it's pretty obvious that you have it in for that company)
Umm...do me a favor and read the original post again. Second paragraph. You'll see that I clearly stated OOIDA as a source. Thank you.

[CornWater]

Don't forget, there are two factors at work here. Even if you don't actually see a 10% increase in fuel volume, heated fuel will also be less efficient. So I don't see that a 10-15% reduction in mileage is unbelievable. I'd love to go into vapor pressure and flash point and all that but I'd rather go drink beer. :D
I'd love to hear about vapor pressure and flash point. Can you school me?? I've got time... :)

[HighRoller]

I don't. But you do have the internet. Have fun...let me know what you find out! :D Search for flash point of gas and diesel and move on to vapor pressure from there. You might be surprised what you learn!

[Fozzy]

Flashpoint and vapor pressure have little to do with the volume of a liquid that is being dispensed from and enclosed container to and enclosed container. Once inside the container the temp of the liquid will have an effect on the amount of vapors generated. What we should be concerned about is the vapor recovery systems the Air Quality Districts requre at all gas stations. As you fill up, the vapors in your gas tank are displaced and put into the storage tanks of the station. Those are your vapors from the gas you bought, but you don't get credit for them. :confused:

[SummitKarl]

Flashpoint and vapor pressure have little to do with the volume of a liquid that is being dispensed from and enclosed container to and enclosed container. Once inside the container the temp of the liquid will have an effect on the amount of vapors generated. What we should be concerned about is the vapor recovery systems the Air Quality Districts requre at all gas stations. As you fill up, the vapors in your gas tank are displaced and put into the storage tanks of the station. Those are your vapors from the gas you bought, but you don't get credit for them. :confused:
not in Mohave county we share the vapors freely with everyone :D "no recovery"

[ECeptor]

Wow, I don't think I've read this much miss-information in a long time!
So, let's clear a few things up. The thermal expansion rate of gasoline is 9.5x10-4/°C...or 0.053% per °F. So, it would expand 1.1% by heating 20°F - about 0.2 gallons out of 20...not a big deal.
When you fill up a boat and it spews gas out the vent after it heats up, it's not due to thermal expansion. It's due to vaporization of the gas - liquid gasoline becoming gasoline vapor. The vapor takes up much, much more volume and therefore increases the pressure in the tank until it blows out the overflow. Generally, it you completely top off the tank the overflow inlet point is slight below the liquid gas level and when it vaporizes it push the raw liquid fuel out.
With all that said, heating gas storage sounds like one company's ploy to cut their costs by 1.1% with might be a significant margin imporovement depending how much or little they make per gallon. For us, we should never completely top off a fuel tank. Always leave a little room at the top so when it vaporizes theres enough room for expansion without over pressuring the tank and blowing out +$2/gal fuel out on the ground.

[uvindex]

Umm...do me a favor and read the original post again. Second paragraph. You'll see that I clearly stated OOIDA as a source. Thank you.You're right, sorry. :)

[CornWater]

I don't. But you do have the internet. Have fun...let me know what you find out! :D Search for flash point of gas and diesel and move on to vapor pressure from there. You might be surprised what you learn!
I've got some of my old thermo books... should I review those?? Or continue with my "internet" education.... :rollside:

[Tom Brown]

I've got some of my old thermo books... should I review those?? Or continue with my "internet" education.... :rollside:
I wonder... what's the flash point of this thread. :idea:

[bgchuby01]

to me it seems like highroller just has a hardon for flying J. if you don't like what they do then take your old freightliner and go to some other small peice of shit truckstop. flying J's prices are equal to the other major fuel stops or they would not be getting business from the large truck companies. Most large companies get a fax overnight telling them the fuel prices by region for the whole US.. They in turn figure out where that there trucks are and inform them to use certain stops. If flying J was out of line on their prices than the large companies would not go there. Highroller go back to driving your cab foward garbage truck and leave the real trucking to real drivers instead of the sniveling wanabe's like you. Let me guess you live in a house with 6 tires and an overwide decal on the rear of the house

[Freak]

Ok I have a open mind to it. HighRoller where do you recommend?

[Seadog]

I find it amusing how many idiotic things are brought out as viable facts. If OOIDA published this as fact, it is one more case of an idiot not confirming the fact. The whole thing is physically impossible, financially impractical and so inanely ridiculous that any intelligent person is rolling on the floor right now.

[CornWater]

I find it amusing how many idiotic things are brought out as viable facts. If OOIDA published this as fact, it is one more case of an idiot not confirming the fact. The whole thing is physically impossible, financially impractical and so inanely ridiculous that any intelligent person is rolling on the floor right now.
LMAO.... ;)

[meaniam]

Thats what I was wondering...................So I wonder which car will go farther:
Car #1 Full tank of hot fuel?
Car #2 Full tank of cool fuel?
Sounds like a brain teaser to me.
car number 2 will have more horsepower due to density

[Backfire]

Are you sayin that FJ intentionally heats their fuel? I might be willing to believe that they heat diesel.... in Montana during December! Diesel requires heat in cold climates to prevent gelling and fuel heating systems are standard on most new big rigs.
Did the OOIDA article imply that gasoline was being heated? I doubt that heating gasoline would ever be legal....or even safe! Certainly not in the desert! I know many fuel stops have above-ground tanks that could be getting some free solar heating. Pilot north of Havasu is set up like this. Maybe I should ice a gas can the next time I buy a gallon of their gas and then raise hell when it comes up short?
Some marketing genius should hook up with a major brand and start advertizing that their fuel is delivered at 37 degrees like beer! Heck, if it works maybe refrigerated gas tanks are in our future!

[beer hunter]

So does a gallon of "hot gas" fill yer tank faster than a gallon of cool gas? :D

[Sherpa]

my dad is a retired Shell Oil tanker driver.... he always told me when I wanted
to fill the tank, buy the fuel at night so it hasn't expanded, and you can pump
more into your tank............ but that only accounts for your car/truck being
exposed to sun/heat from outside.........
since fuel is stored underground, THAT fuel doesn't expand/contract at under-
ground temps...
sounds like a urban legend to me.
--Sherpa

[phebus]

I allways try to fart when it's hot out, it has far more impact.... :idea:

[RiverToysJas]

I don't know anything about this story, but I do know (for what it's worth) that last time I got gasoline at Flying J in Barstow they were experiencing a station wide "vapor lock" situation with the diesel pumps. Everyone had to stop pumping so they could get pressure back.
I can only assume this was caused by a malfunction of the "fuel heater element" ;)
RTJas :D

[SmokinLowriderSS]

BS flag #1
First, 1.1% expansion from heating what 15,000 gallons of liquid by 20 degrees. What would THAT cost every day? Far more than the value gained by selling 1.1% more fuel. Fuel sales have a very small margin of profit, get to know anyone running a station sometime & ask. They make $$$ on the food/drink/accessory items (oil, washer fluid, air fresheners, etc)
BS Flag #2
Looked up the OOIDA. http://www.ooida.com/
Nothing about any Flying J investigations. Nothing about heated fuel investigations. A few things about surcharge issues but nothing about fuel ripoffs, on their home website.
BS Flag #3
The ONLY web reference I can find about any Flying J investigation story is at the folowing website:
http://www.flyingjsux.com
This site concerns itself with an attempt by a trucker to assault (he did punch him in the face apparently) a General Manager of a Flying J who was making him (and several other truckers) move their illegally parked trucks as they were blocking the driveway entrance. The site appears to be put up BY the assaultive trucker in question.
There is no reference in this website to any Heated Fuel Scam issue.
BS flag #4.
I cannot find ANY other (national media, reputable or otherwise) info on this "story" you claim. Our glorious national media (if it had any truth in it whatsoever (and sometimes if they just WANT it to be true)) would certainly run with a story of a major truck-stop ripoff story (evil big business). Nothing turns up ANYWHERE except for flyingjsux.com.
4 major BS flags in 20 minuites of research = 3 strikes and you are OUT. :eat:
Totally bull story. :hammer2:
Sorry to blow your story, it was worth 4 pages of posts.
If you have any further, more specific references to this story, I would like to see them. Maybe I'll reverse my decision. :clover:
Darn, I'm starting to post like LVJetboy. looooooooooooooong :D :D

[CA Stu]

So how are they heating the fuel?
Dude, is your aluminum foil beanie too tight or what?
The Aliens that have JFK are using the Coriolis effect to heat the diesel fuel in their newest plan to take over the world by buying Flying J.
I mean think about it.
UFO.
UFlyingO.
What letter is not there?
J.
That's right.
And is Chewbacca a wookie? What are Ewoks? Look at the monkey. LOOK AT THE MONKEY!
Thanks
CA Stu <--thinks "High" Roller might be.

[WYRD]

Dude, is your aluminum foil beanie too tight or what?
The Aliens that have JFK are using the Coriolis effect to heat the diesel fuel in their newest plan to take over the world by buying Flying J.
I mean think about it.
UFO.
UFlyingO.
What letter is not there?
J.
That's right.
And is Chewbacca a wookie? What are Ewoks? Look at the monkey. LOOK AT THE MONKEY!
Thanks
CA Stu <--thinks "High" Roller might be.
I have a question.....................where did you get those AWSOME DRUGS and are you willing to SHARE :idea: :D

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Dude, is your aluminum foil beanie too tight or what?
The Aliens that have JFK are using the Coriolis effect to heat the diesel fuel in their newest plan to take over the world by buying Flying J.
I mean think about it.
UFO.
UFlyingO.
What letter is not there?
J.
That's right.
And is Chewbacca a wookie? What are Ewoks? Look at the monkey. LOOK AT THE MONKEY!
Thanks
CA Stu <--thinks "High" Roller might be.
Darnit Ca Stu! It was SOOOOO OBVIOUS I missed it!!! I completely forgot the likelihood that space aliens (with the help of that subversive JFK) could harness the Coriolis Effect like that! It FITS!!! I suspect they are also behind the cinese deciding NOT to buy Unocal.
{Absolutely zero research was done, no facts were checked, and no dogs molested in the making of this post} :D

[Tyson Ross]

Does HighRoller own a LOVE'S or PILOT? :jawdrop: :D

[HighRoller]

Does HighRoller own a LOVE'S or PILOT? :jawdrop: :D
Not yet, but right after I buy the Topock Gorge marina that will be my next purchase. Free microwave nachos with a fill up of at least $200! This has been a crack up, really entertaining. We found out who the "real" experts are when it comes to truckstops. Not the guys who spend their lives patronizing them, but the guy who stopped there to use the can once. And I guess that article I read with all those stats was BS. The fact that the fuel was like 40 degrees hotter than the place across the street was a fluke. All three times they tested at all the locations. And the guy who had been fueling at the same Flying J every week for 10 years who suddenly experienced a 10%+ drop in his mileage? He lied. It's all a conspiracy. I have so much time I've gone into Blown472 mode and I'm out to destroy Flying J. So please continue patronizing them. You'll get what you deserve :p

[HighRoller]

$8 an hour? That would mean I got a raise from my starting wage of $6.50!!! BTW, I was just out hitting the bus with a sledge hammer to make it look mean!!!

[Rexone]

Reading this thread has given me gas. And it felt warmer than usual. :jawdrop:

[Tom Brown]

And it felt warmer than usual. :jawdrop:
How hot do you suppose this would feel, meteorology boy?
http://www.carlsonspeed.com/~tombrown/QuickLink/thermometer.jpg

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Specific heat of Gasoline .... .52999999 BTU per lb per degree F
.53 BTU's 10,000 gal of gas 6.5 pounds per gallon 20 degree raise
(If I use 40 degrees it gets even worse but which figure you want me to use?)
689,000 BTU's
Watts conversion to Btu/hour -- Watts x 3.413
Lets say they heat the fuel over 4 hours 172,250 BTU per hour required for 4 hours. 587889.25 watts of energy required each hour .....
Watts + Voltage x Amperage.
230 VAC system .... 2556 AMPRES of current required to generate that heat each hour
440 VAC ... 1336 Ampres of current required each hour.
They building their own power substation out back as well???
What's the local price of electricity out there per kilowat hour? Here is $.14
Here, cost is $82 each hour to feed the heating subsystem. They pocket 2% (max) on the fuel ($3 a gal (high)... .06 per gallon from expansion)
4,100 gallons of fuel sales required EACH AND EVERY HOUR just to pay for the electricity used to heat the fuel TO BREAK EVEN.
Now, that sells the tank empty in 2.5 hours ... so now we have to heat it 50%faster, using twice the power, now needing to sell 8,200 gal to break even, which empties the tank in an hour plus 15 min, so we must heat it more than 50% faster AGAIN (on to infinitum)
Basic physics says it is impossible to heat the fuel to expand it AND make enough money from the "rip-off" to break even.
And folks said I'd never use those 3 yrs I spent in 3 levels of chemistry and physics classes. How wrong they were. :crossx:
Yes, the whole story is BS. The Statistics are made-up. Anyone who claims they can prove it is a liar. Anyone who believes the story now is foolish. :argue:
Someone bring me another dead horse, I have the club ready to go for another one. :smile:

[coolchange]

Bwaaaahahaha! Lets see if this thread can go another 4 pages. Has anyone thought about the "hot gas" viscosity affecting the flow meter reading on how many gallons it "said" you got and what you actually recieved and how the resulting numbers changed your milage readings? Somebody posted on slow fueling to increase your fill to fool the pump. Surely the heat has the same effct.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

You're probably right SB, but I ALMOST never resort to name calling. :D
You would have to marry me first and then divorce me to get me to call you names. ;) At that point I have a great vocabulary, keep in practice with 2 ex's. :rolleyes:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Unfortunately, slow fueling won't fool the pumps either. They are designed to be pressure compensating, volume accurate at even minimal flow volumes. IF the heat expanded fuel (as a liquid it would measure acurately) was 2% larger than "ambient" fuel, that would translate to 2.4 ounces (128 ounces in a gallon) per gallon. You'd have to fuel 53 gallons to lose out on 1 gallon.

[Man-de-lone]

Toss in the fact that the one at Ehrenburg is cheaper than anyone else by 10 to 30 cents a gallon and I'll take the hot stuff.... :notam:

[One Eyed Jack]

the hot fuel evaporates
before it ever gets to the tank
the scrunchie goodie
on the nozzle
captures the fumes
which they chill and condense
and resell to cheap bastards
who think they are saving ten cents a gallon

[sorry dog]

I apologize in advance because this thread is soooo good...
...but why would you have the heat the whole underground tank? Just run the fuel through some aluminum cores that are heated by an electric element or better yet hot water (think ya'll gots a lot of that).
BTW - I've also determined that my farts are better than Tom Brown's. Since he is Canadien and more importantly a Saskatchawanian his genetics and body chemistry allow his body to extract more heat from them by increased number of bowel capilaries and extended detention time and therefore keep his ass warmer.
Down here in the chili bean and pea eating south we just fart as fast as we can and hope the wind is blowing.
...Now the next question is...does Kim Hansom drink his Labatt at exactly 0 degrees C so as to ingest maximum volume per swallow?

[Seadog]

If you really want to be a cheap bastaud, check the pumps certification. It says right on each pump whether it pumps high or low. Pick a pump that has been tested to pump slightly more than a gallon. Fill your vehicle in the wee hours of the morning when it is coolest. Just think, some government agent comes by on a regular basis and puts a tag on the pump that tells you which is the best one to use and I bet nobody pays attention.
And Lowrider, just think, all that edukation and you still couldn't find the raftup on Friday.:D

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Yep, The Admiral & I were too busy cruising the shallows arround the islands spraying tons of TexOkla H2O into the sky. I sometimes wonder just how many folks hanging on the beaches there expected us to ground any seccond as we blew past. :eek:
Was a nice relaxing break from the kids noisemaking. :wink:

[survivor2555]

BS flag #1
.......First, 1.1% expansion from heating what 15,000 gallons of liquid by 20 degrees. What would THAT cost every day? Far more than the value gained by selling 1.1% more fuel. Fuel sales have a very small margin of profit, get to know anyone running a station sometime & ask.....
............BS Flag #2
Looked up the OOIDA. http://www.ooida.com/
Nothing about any Flying J investigations. Nothing about heated fuel investigations. A few things about surcharge issues but nothing about fuel ripoffs, on their home website. ........
........BS Flag #3
The ONLY web reference I can find about any Flying J investigation story is at the folowing website:
http://www.flyingjsux.com
This site concerns itself with an attempt by a trucker to assault (he did punch him in the face apparently) a General Manager of a Flying J who was making him (and several other truckers) move their illegally parked trucks as they were blocking the driveway entrance. The site appears to be put up BY the assaultive trucker in question.
There is no reference in this website to any Heated Fuel Scam issue......
BS flag #4.
4 major BS flags in 20 minuites of research = 3 strikes and you are OUT. :eat:
Totally bull story. :hammer2:
May I direct your attention to the JUNE 2005 Issue of LandLine Magazine (published by OOIDA) Page 30 TITLED: Heated Debate, by Terry Scruton
The ARTICLE points out SEVERAL examples of heated fuel; 85 deg in Louder SC; 87 deg in Temple GA; 93 deg in W. Memphis AR ALL at Flying J's and 53 deg at a PETRO in Weatherford, TX (All on the SAME trip). Heated fuel expands and gives up less BTU than non-heated fuel and has such an effect on fuel economy, dropping from 6.2 mpg to 4.4 mpg, almost a 30% reduction. So you end up buying as much as 30% MORE fuel.
For another article that explains MORE on the HEATED FUEL issue, go http://www.landlinemag.com/Archives/2005/Mar05/news/hot_fuel.htm[/URL}
Although THIS article doesn't mention Flying J, it DOES explain the effects of HEATING fuel.
The REASON you cant find it on OOIDA's website? Are you a member of OOIDA? Article about the INVESTIGATION of "HEATED FUEL" at Flying J is in MEMBER ONLY Section. AS a TRUCKDRIVER, I have been aware that Flying J has "heated" fuel in several markets for almost 8 years and avoided purchasing fuel from them. I have "pulped" the fuel at Flying J's and recorded temperatures as high as 87 deg in JANUARY. You can get a SUBSCRIPTION to Landline Magazine FREE, on their website [URL]http://www.landlinemag.com
First of all, it seems that you had no problem FINDING my website, but probably NEGLECTED in actually READING it. IF you had, you would know that I NEVER assaulted ANY flying j employee. READ The testimony of Flying J's own employee; Tammy Smith. She testified that after I left the fuel desk, I was NOT approached by, nor did I approach any FLYING J employee while in the Flying J, and that as far as SHE was concerned, "it was over". You would ALSO know by reading FLYING J's own testimony, the testimony of the two witnesses and of the Gordon County Sheriffs Officers, that there were NO trucks blocking the driveway, and the "back-up" from the parking area to the highway was a common occurrence, and happened several times per week. Flying J attempted to sue me for assault (only after I SUED them) as well as LIBEL, SLANDER, TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT, TRADEMARK DILUTION and other things and LOST on all accounts. If ANY of their allegations had been true, I would have LOST my lawsuit and the web site, don't you think? It seems that FLYING J employees were far less than believable than they had hoped for, with the exception of Tammy Smith, who did FAR MORE to bolster my case, then damage it.
That being said; the DEBUNKER has been DEBUNKED KNOWLEDGE is the ONLY CURE for cranial-rectalitis

[Essex29]

Shouldn't this threas be on some Hillbilly site? :D

[Seadog]

Yeah, that sounds like a real believable source. Sounds like he was on his way to a commune in Montana with his cards saying that he was immune from the laws of the nation because he did not recognize their authority.

[rrrr]

Shouldn't this threas be on some Hillbilly site? :D
LMAO!!! :D :D
That guy has the black helicopter syndrome big time, backchecking the people that wander into his cyber la-la land.
Gotta love his typing style too, reminds me of Lake Pirate....
Too fn'g funny.....

[SmokinLowriderSS]

May I direct your attention to the JUNE 2005 Issue of LandLine Magazine (published by OOIDA) Page 30 TITLED: Heated Debate, by Terry Scruton
The ARTICLE points out SEVERAL examples of heated fuel; 85 deg in Louder SC; 87 deg in Temple GA; 93 deg in W. Memphis AR ALL at Flying J's and 53 deg at a PETRO in Weatherford, TX (All on the SAME trip). Heated fuel expands and gives up less BTU than non-heated fuel and has such an effect on fuel economy, dropping from 6.2 mpg to 4.4 mpg, almost a 30% reduction. So you end up buying as much as 30% MORE fuel.
For another article that explains MORE on the HEATED FUEL issue, go http://www.landlinemag.com/Archives/2005/Mar05/news/hot_fuel.htm[/URL}
Although THIS article doesn't mention Flying J, it DOES explain the effects of HEATING fuel.
]The REASON you cant find it on OOIDA's website? Are you a member of OOIDA? Article about the INVESTIGATION of "HEATED FUEL" at Flying J is in MEMBER ONLY Section. AS a TRUCKDRIVER, I have been aware that Flying J has "heated" fuel in several markets for almost 8 years and avoided purchasing fuel from them. I have "pulped" the fuel at Flying J's and recorded temperatures as high as 87 deg in JANUARY. You can get a SUBSCRIPTION to Landline Magazine FREE, on their website [url]http://www.landlinemag.com
][/QUOTE]First of all, it seems that you had no problem FINDING my website, but probably NEGLECTED in actually READING it. IF you had, you would know that I NEVER assaulted ANY flying j employee. READ The testimony of Flying J's own employee; Tammy Smith. She testified that after I left the fuel desk, I was NOT approached by, nor did I approach any FLYING J employee while in the Flying J, and that as far as SHE was concerned, "it was over". You would ALSO know by reading FLYING J's own testimony, the testimony of the two witnesses and of the Gordon County Sheriffs Officers, that there were NO trucks blocking the driveway, and the "back-up" from the parking area to the highway was a common occurrence, and happened several times per week. Flying J attempted to sue me for assault (only after I SUED them) as well as LIBEL, SLANDER, TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT, TRADEMARK DILUTION and other things and LOST on all accounts. If ANY of their allegations had been true, I would have LOST my lawsuit and the web site, don't you think? It seems that FLYING J employees were far less than believable than they had hoped for, with the exception of Tammy Smith, who did FAR MORE to bolster my case, then damage it.
][/QUOTE]That being said; the DEBUNKER has been DEBUNKED KNOWLEDGE is the ONLY CURE for cranial-rectalitis[/QUOTE]]
Thx for the other article link, I shall also look at it.
Seems like something like this ought to be in a PUBLIC portion of the site. Seems pretty stupid to hide it from the masses, unless there is good reason.
I read goodly portions of your site, and the issue with Flying J /assault claims. I just didn't care/wasn't interested.
Sure, take on the physics now. :argue:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

By the way, your link doesn't work. Care to try again?

[SmokinLowriderSS]

...Now the next question is...does Kim Hansom drink his Labatt at exactly 0 degrees C so as to ingest maximum volume per swallow?
I'm not sure about beer, but pure water is at it's most dense at about 39 deg F (about 4C). Below that, it expands slightly, then more as it freezes. Above 39F it expands as well.
I'm betting beer is similar because it is predominantly water and since the alky is actually suspended in between the water molecules (old physics neato trick, pour a cup of water into a cup of alch, and you get less than 2 cups of liquid). :cool:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

May I direct your attention to the JUNE 2005 Issue of LandLine Magazine (published by OOIDA) Page 30 TITLED: Heated Debate, by Terry Scruton
The REASON you cant find it on OOIDA's website? Are you a member of OOIDA? Article about the INVESTIGATION of "HEATED FUEL" at Flying J is in MEMBER ONLY Section.
First of all, it seems that you had no problem FINDING my website, but probably NEGLECTED in actually READING it. IF you had, you would know that I NEVER assaulted ANY flying j employee.
]
Interesting thing about this bozo's website (vindictive and nasty thing that it is) it makes a lot of hay over the alledged assault incident I aluded to. It accuses a lot of people of a lot of things. it makes a lot of denial arguments. It says a LOT, but, what it does NOT say (since the incedent dates from the later '90s) is the outcome of the trial (or trialS since he claims to have countersued).
I just don't feel like looking it up either.
Just don't care.
I'll stand behind the fact that the original acusation is economically and physically imposible to do.
Pure BS story, but a good story none the less. :cool:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I might as well kick "survivor2555" again...............
Expansion of heated gasoline has been settled on as less than 2%.
THERMAL EXPANSION
Like all liquids, diesel fuel slightly expands in volume as its temperature increases. The coefficient of thermal expansion measures the rate of the expansion. A typical value of the coefficient of thermal expansion for diesel fuel is 0.00046 per degree Fahrenheit. Using this value, 1.000 gallon of diesel fuel at 20°F will expand to 1.037 gal-lons at 100°F.
Ummmm from 60 to 90* .... ummmmm 100 gal diesel becomes 101.38 gal.
Thermal expansion for Diesel Fuel- 1.4%
BTU per US gal of Gasoline (Std temp & press conditions (sea level 68*F)) --104,000
Same standard for Diesel fuel -- 115,480
Fuel BTU capacity is per VOLUME. Yes, the BTU capacity of 100* fuels is lower than 70* fuels ... by less than 1 1/2%
100* gas .......... 101,920 BTUs 2% reduction per US gallon
100* diesel ....... 113,071 BTUs 1.38% less per US gallon
Care to explain how a sub 2% loss in heat energy and/or a 2% reduction in capacity translates into a 30% loss in your mileage? Betcha can't. Don't try adding it up either to get 4% because if you let it cool, and you loose the 2% volume, you GAIN the 2% power.
How come you keep showing us BS survivor when I keep showing you it is IMPOSSIBLE? Oh, wait a min. I got it. Blinders. Saw those on racehorses at times, so they don't see the one about to pass them & get scared. :coffeycup
Someone pass me some popcorn please. :rollside:

[BigWheel]

the link didn't work for me either.

[Tom Brown]

I wonder if big oil will off this guy who has it in for Flying J's, the way they offed the guy who invented the 200 mpg carburetor. :idea:

[Mighty Thor]

Thats what I was wondering...................So I wonder which car will go farther:
Car #1 Full tank of hot fuel?
Car #2 Full tank of cool fuel?
Sounds like a brain teaser to me.
Actually Smokey Yunick proved this question in the 1960s. He was putting his gas in double walled gas containers and then filling the space between the two walls with dry ice. No one could figure out how come he was getting so many more laps than everyone else on the same size fuel tank. Answer, colder gas meant more gas in the tank= more laps between fills. Took almost a whole year to catch him at it. Won a whole lot of races in the mean time. :hammerhea

[survivor2555]

[FONT=Times New Roman]
I read goodly portions of your site, and the issue with Flying J /assault claims. I just didn't care/wasn't interested.
Sure, take on the physics now. :argue:
But you were surely interested enough to misrepresent what was on the website. Anyway, as to the LandLine Magazine link, your forum really screwed up in placing the link, it added about 2 paragraphs of following text to the URL
http://www.landlinemag.com/Archives/2005/Mar05/news/hot_fuel.htm
Knowledge is the only cure for cranial-rectalitus

[Seadog]

Gee, and to think I spent all that time learning physics and thermodynamics when all I needed was to go to a web site run by a high school dropout. :hammerhea

[survivor2555]

Interesting thing about this bozo's website (vindictive and nasty thing that it is) it makes a lot of hay over the alledged assault incident I aluded to. It accuses a lot of people of a lot of things. it makes a lot of denial arguments. It says a LOT, but, what it does NOT say (since the incedent dates from the later '90s) is the outcome of the trial (or trialS since he claims to have countersued)
On the FRONT PAGE there is a SWF file that ANNOUNCES I won my lawsuit and THEY lost their "COUNTER-SUITS"
It says:" Driver Wins Lawsuit against Cody Goolsby and Flying J, Cody Goolsby and Flying J LOOSE all their counter-suits, but then again WE always knew they were losers anyway...: (It seems you continuously misrepresent what is on the website) There are OTHER pages that say I won the LAWSUIT as well.
Additionally, I filed the original Lawsuit, THEY filed 7 (SEVEN) counter-suits in response; for alleged assaults, claiming during DEPOSITION that they suffered such injuries as a cut on the finger, which magically transformed to serious road-rash type injuries at trial, they testified they took some "aspirin", but they sought NO medical attention.
My injuries however were a serious break (in two places) to the ULNA resulting in arthritis, bone spurs, loss in range of motion ect, not to mention 8 weeks of loss of income to my business, which I eventually lost as the result. They ALSO filed suit for alleged violations of their trademark rights, slander for a total of a seven count COUNTER-SUIT. Their COUNTER-SUIT was baseless and was only a SLAPP (google the word: it is more or less a form of punishment for filing a lawsuit, illegal in MOST states, but not in Georgia) The JUDGE saw that their case was baseless and threw-out (4 out of 7) most of their claims prior to trial, and the JURY dismissed the remainder.
You think my web site is "vindictive and nasty"? Perhaps, but you should also consider the Interview between KUMEN TAYLOR (Flying J Corporate HACK) and Jason Cisper (reporter for LandLine Magazine) where J. Cisper was told that I was drunk/on drugs, that I assaulted several employees (including Tammy Smith the fuel clerk, and the General Manager), that I had a gun in my truck, ect.
I do not drink alcohol, I do not use illegal drugs nor abuse prescription drugs. Several witnesses testified at trial that I was had not been drinking, and the Gordon County Sheriffs Dept testified they did not suspect I was under the influence of drugs either, or would have ordered blood tests while I was at the hospital.
Three witnesses (including Flying J own employee: Tammy Smith) testified that I did NOT assault ANY employee (including her) while in the building, and two others testified that I did NOT assault ANY Flying J employee OUTSIDE the building, and infact I was the one who was assaulted. In Kumen Taylor's Letter to my FIRST Lawyer, he alleged that I grabbed Ms Smith, pulled her across the counter and struck her.....
Do you think Flying J alleging that I was drunk/on drugs was a one time deal? Read the story (also on my web site) of Michael Stamathis,( http://www.flyingjsux.com/stamathis.html ) who was falsely accused of stealing fuel and arrested. While he was being booked; Flying J called his employer and told them he was on drugs, then proceeded to tell the COPS to give Mr. Stamathis a drug test. There are several other stories like this as well, which I am not at liberty to disclose due to either ongoing civil matters or the confidentiality agreements between parties.
If Flying J were an HONORABLE Corporation, they would have NEVER made such scurrilous accusations to discredit me in the eyes of the Sheriff's Dept, OR the Public in General thru their interview with a national trucking publication. Doing extensive research since 1998, I have found NO other such incidents happening at any major Truck-Stop chain, except Flying J. My Lawyer even did a search of similar Lawsuits filed between 1990 and 2000 and found none, except against Flying J.
Was I parked in a "NO-Parking" Zone? YES, well I never denied I was, but I had just purchased over $250 in fuel (about 188 gallons) and found no parking in the lot. Common happening at MOST Flying J's because of small parking lots and limited number of spaces. I was only going to be there long enough to eat dinner, as were the drivers of the other 7 "illegally parked" trucks, who ALSO had their dinner interrupted as well.
Was I "blocking the driveway"? NO, I was parked in between two other trucks, and the "back-up" in the parking lot was because there was no parking available and there were too many trucks in the parking area "looking" for parking which was not available. Flying J admitted this was a fact in the Trial Testimony of Carl Goolsby, the General Manager of Flying J. He also testified that this happens several times a week. At that time, the Flying J was the ONLY truck-stop between Chattanooga and Atlanta. SO there was quite a demand for parking, even for a short period of time.
There surely wasn't any reason for the rude and vulgar way I was treated by Ms Smith (which she admitted in Court) And there certainly wasn't any reason for me to call her a "rude Biotch", which I admitted to in Court.
But I left when I was told to, and the most certainly wasn't any reason for 4 "THUGS" who were "out of control" (words of the Gordon County Sheriff's Officers) to follow me out to my truck, wait until I walked in between two trailers, jump me and beat me either. You should note that Flying J no longer handles their own SECURITY issues at this Flying J, but contracts with off-duty GCSO.
The way Flying J treated me after I was violently assaulted, don't you think I have the right to be "nasty and vindictive"? http://www.flyingjsux.com (http://www.flyingjsux.com/)

[survivor2555]

Gee, and to think I spent all that time learning physics and thermodynamics when all I needed was to go to a web site run by a high school dropout. :hammerhea
I hope that you arent classifying ME as a "HIGH-SCHOOL DROPOUT"....
I happen to have a degree in Arborculture and was employed as a Tree Surgeon for 22 years before I decided to change occupations. Additionally, there is no discussion what-so-ever on my web site related in any way to the effects of HEATED Fuel.

[survivor2555]

I might as well kick "survivor2555" again...............
How come you keep showing us BS survivor when I keep showing you it is IMPOSSIBLE? Oh, wait a min. I got it. Blinders. Saw those on racehorses at times, so they don't see the one about to pass them & get scared. :coffeycup
Someone pass me some popcorn please. :rollside:
You are talking about your book learning and not how HEATED FUEL (diesel not gasoline) reacts in the REAL world of TRUCKING. It might be reasonable to believe the figures I provided, but those figures weren't mine, but reported by someone else. And since I have watched my own fuel milage fluctuate between 4.5 mpg and 6.5 mpg (or better) during the same trip, I would suspect that it had something to do with either the quality or the temperature of the fuel. I have no reason to doubt what someone else reported.

[survivor2555]

this bozo'
You ever notice how when someone is loosing the argument, they resort to ad-homonym attacks?

[survivor2555]

high school dropout.
You ever notice how when someone is loosing the argument, they resort to ad-homonym attacks?

[survivor2555]

I wonder if big oil will off this guy who has it in for Flying J's, the way they offed the guy who invented the 200 mpg carburetor. :idea:
Flying J (which could hardly be classified as "big oil") already tried that, well, "offing" me by filing 7 baseless counter-suits in response to my original lawsuit. It didn't work for them then.

[survivor2555]

[FONT=Times New Roman]
Thx for the other article link, I shall also look at it.
Seems like something like this ought to be in a PUBLIC portion of the site. Seems pretty stupid to hide it from the masses, unless there is good reason.
I read goodly portions of your site, and the issue with Flying J /assault claims. I just didn't care/wasn't interested.
Sure, take on the physics now. :argue:
Sure I agree, I don't know why this particular article didn't make it to LandLineMag Online, but I am not in charge of those decisions. Sometimes it initially is published in the current month online, but doesn't make it to the ARCHIVES section. However, you can call OOIDA ( 800-444-5791), subscribe to LandLine Magazine (FREE) and request a copy of the June 2005 Issue. I dont know if they will send it, though because it is a 30-Year "Special MEMBER Issue" and was not even released to the General Public. Many times, while OOIDA is investigating an "issue" they will divulge the information to members only and at times to selected members first. EXAMPLE: OOIDA contacted me in 1998 and asked me to "pulp" and record the fuel temerature at different Flying J's and compare the temperatures with the fuel temperatures at other truckstops. I did so for over a year and discovered the fuel temperatures often to be as much as 30 degrees higher than the fuel temperature of a truckstop across the street.
I do not know HOW they heated their fuel, or WHEN, (nor do I care) but I do know that in many cases they purchased their fuel from the same source as the other truckstops. And I also know that the higher temperatures seemed to drastically affect my fuel milage.

[rrrr]

You are talking about your book learning and not how HEATED FUEL (diesel not gasoline) reacts in the REAL world of TRUCKING. It might be reasonable to believe the figures I provided, but those figures weren't mine, but reported by someone else. And since I have watched my own fuel milage fluctuate between 4.5 mpg and 6.5 mpg (or better) during the same trip, I would suspect that it had something to do with either the quality or the temperature of the fuel. I have no reason to doubt what someone else reported.
Yeah, that book learning is way overrated. I built a rocket and space capsule in my shop with discarded aircraft parts and commercial kitchen appliances. It's capable of orbital flight and with some minor tweaks it will be able to travel to to Mars and back. I have done this even though NASA has learned of my efforts and through a smear and intimidation scheme tried to have me fired from my job, arrested, and even thrown out of my church. There is always a black Ford Crown Victoria with blacked out windows parked across the street from my house. See the government doesn't want me to suceed because then everyone will know that the US space program really costs just a fraction of its official budget. I mean one billion dollars to fix the shuttle fuel tank? That's crazy. I use the same foam they do, I just buy it in case lots at Costco, you know the superfoam insulation stuff that comes in a can. The government takes all of the unused budget money from NASA and uses it to build supersecret facilities to spy on ordinary citizens and alter their behavior. You think you are immune? Southern California is where they are concentrating on because of agriculture, they are going to infiltrate the vegetable farming industry and genetically alter lettuce and tomato plants. The altered food will cause ordinary citizens to develop huge feet and hands. I plan to use my rocket to escape Earth and the hell that the government is going to visit on the citizens. I intend to enlist the assistance of the inhabitants of Mars to return to Earth and defeat the evil. They are very interesting people. They eat guitars. I am now working on the launch facility in my backyard. It is very time consuming because every three hours a spy satellite passes over my house and I must camoflague the work. I intend to dig a 30 foot diameter hole 167 feet deep and line it with concrete. It will take 1,384,908 bags of Redi-Mix, but I have a 110 volt mixer from Harbor Freight so that will make it easier. Fuel for the rocket is a problem because the store down the street only lets me buy 10 gallons on Kerosene at a time. I have been stealing medical oxygen bottles from people on go-scooters in WalMart's parking lot. The bottles will be plumbed into a manifold and feed the oxygen to the rocket motor to be mixed with the kerosene. This is the brilliant part- I found a huge stainless steel soup kettle to use for the rocket nozzle, NASA uses the same thing but they tell you it's titanium. The guidance system is secret but I can tell you I modified it from a Monster Truck I bought at Radio Shack. It's Chinese technology and it's the same stuff that Bill Clinton sold the Chinese for their missiles. Clinton was given four young Chinese girls as payment and he keeps them locked in his basement in Chappaqua. Hillary knows about it but can't say anything because she is running for President in '08. The mind control computers have been programmed to get her votes. This program is being run by outside interests in Canada and this guy named Tom Brown is the person in charge. He has known of the systems for years and also has interests in programs Canada has to manipulate the value of the Canadian dollar. There is a huge antenna system in the far North of Canada beaming high frequency radio waves focused at the Federal Reserve Bank to make Alan Greenspan think that Canadians are friendly when they really want to take over North Dakota because of the secret minerals being mined there by the CIA. I know all of this because I am secretly tapped into the DARPA and NORAD computer networks using a program I wrote with six billion lines of code. I have to go back to work now.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I wonder if big oil will off this guy who has it in for Flying J's, the way they offed the guy who invented the 200 mpg carburetor. :idea:
Some people in this world are still alive simply for 1 reason ..................... It happens to be illegal to kill them. :220v: :wink:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

But you were surely interested enough to misrepresent what was on the website. Anyway, as to the LandLine Magazine link, your forum really screwed up in placing the link, it added about 2 paragraphs of following text to the URL
http://www.landlinemag.com/Archives/2005/Mar05/news/hot_fuel.htm
Knowledge is the only cure for cranial-rectalitus
If you recheck my earlier post (the scroll wheel on the mouse) you will note that I had a statement about you & Flying J's asssault sue-party ........ Here, I'll repeat myself. " I don't care", not a lot, not a little, not one tiny bit. Thx for your self concern tho.
And I did say ( in the post) that you were ALEDGED to have struck someone. I can't say yea, or nay, as I wasn't there, Also, I Don't Care.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Yeah, that book learning is way overrated. I built a rocket and space capsule in my shop with discarded aircraft parts and commercial kitchen appliances. It's capable of orbital flight and with some minor tweaks it will be able to travel to to Mars and back. I have done this even though NASA has learned of my efforts and through a smear and intimidation scheme tried to have me fired from my job, arrested, and even thrown out of my church. There is always a black Ford Crown Victoria with blacked out windows parked across the street from my house. See the government doesn't want me to suceed because then everyone will know that the US space program really costs just a fraction of its official budget. I mean one billion dollars to fix the shuttle fuel tank? That's crazy. I use the same foam they do, I just buy it in case lots at Costco, you know the superfoam insulation stuff that comes in a can. The government takes all of the unused budget money from NASA and uses it to build supersecret facilities to spy on ordinary citizens and alter their behavior. You think you are immune? Southern California is where they are concentrating on because of agriculture, they are going to infiltrate the vegetable farming industry and genetically alter lettuce and tomato plants. The altered food will cause ordinary citizens to develop huge feet and hands. I plan to use my rocket to escape Earth and the hell that the government is going to visit on the citizens. I intend to enlist the assistance of the inhabitants of Mars to return to Earth and defeat the evil. They are very interesting people. They eat guitars. I am now working on the launch facility in my backyard. It is very time consuming because every three hours a spy satellite passes over my house and I must camoflague the work. I intend to dig a 30 foot diameter hole 167 feet deep and line it with concrete. It will take 1,384,908 bags of Redi-Mix, but I have a 110 volt mixer from Harbor Freight so that will make it easier. Fuel for the rocket is a problem because the store down the street only lets me buy 10 gallons on Kerosene at a time. I have been stealing medical oxygen bottles from people on go-scooters in WalMart's parking lot. The bottles will be plumbed into a manifold and feed the oxygen to the rocket motor to be mixed with the kerosene. This is the brilliant part- I found a huge stainless steel soup kettle to use for the rocket nozzle, NASA uses the same thing but they tell you it's titanium. The guidance system is secret but I can tell you I modified it from a Monster Truck I bought at Radio Shack. It's Chinese technology and it's the same stuff that Bill Clinton sold the Chinese for their missiles. Clinton was given four young Chinese girls as payment and he keeps them locked in his basement in Chappaqua. Hillary knows about it but can't say anything because she is running for President in '08. The mind control computers have been programmed to get her votes. This program is being run by outside interests in Canada and this guy named Tom Brown is the person in charge. He has known of the systems for years and also has interests in programs Canada has to manipulate the value of the Canadian dollar. There is a huge antenna system in the far North of Canada beaming high frequency radio waves focused at the Federal Reserve Bank to make Alan Greenspan think that Canadians are friendly when they really want to take over North Dakota because of the secret minerals being mined there by the CIA. I know all of this because I am secretly tapped into the DARPA and NORAD computer networks using a program I wrote with six billion lines of code. I have to go back to work now.
Laughin' my farkin arse off!!!!!!!! :D
So, you've seen those same Crown Vics. :idea:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Before Survivor comes back again to type me another 487 lines explaining his lawyer-enhancing party with Flying J from whenever ago, I'll leave him a message here.
I still have no interest Survivor.
And I believe there are precisely 2 people in the world who actually believe the Flying J story .... One of them is you Survivor, the other posted this thread.

[AZKC]

I was an owner operator of an Exxon station back in the day and yes the gas does get heated but not by the stations its called Summer time. I remember the pump handles got really warm when filling up vehicles. Also the opposite happened in the Winter the fuel got pretty cold.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

You are talking about your book learning and not how HEATED FUEL (diesel not gasoline) reacts in the REAL world of TRUCKING. It might be reasonable to believe the figures I provided, but those figures weren't mine, but reported by someone else. And since I have watched my own fuel milage fluctuate between 4.5 mpg and 6.5 mpg (or better) during the same trip, I would suspect that it had something to do with either the quality or the temperature of the fuel. I have no reason to doubt what someone else reported.
Lessee........ the "knowledge" in those "books" you refer to wasn't just dreamed up in the dark corners of someones mind. Nobody put numbers on a dartboard and tossed darts to determine the Flash Points, BTU Capacities, or Thermal Expansion Rates of flamable liquids.
Those FACTS have been arrived at by testing, scientific testing, repeatable scientific testing. From that testing, standards have been set for proper production of fuel liquids of all types. The physical properties of Diesel Fuel existed way before the numbers were written down in any book. Those numbers STILL exist because Diesel fuel is manufactured to conform to those standards, and is verified to conform to them. Further testing is done insuring maintenance and accuracy of the standard AND the product. The numbers I have posted are the standards, and will agree very closely with any tests done to the fuels with the exception of effects from contaminants.
Water is a comon contaminant, especially of Diesel fuel. If your fuel has water DISOLVED IN IT, you will loose power (steam does not help combustion), you will loose mileage (reduced power at any given throttle setting means higher settings used for same power). Yes, diesel will actually entrain (absorb) a sizeable ammount of water for a liquid hydrocarbon fuel, much more than gasoline will (it will absorb some too without use of anti-freezes (alcohol additives), but not much). That is why there is a known problem in DIESEL FUEL storage of fungus growth and bacteria growth that CAN occur if entrained water levels get very high for a long time. Gasoline has no such problem but has other issues of long-term storage.
No, your water separator filter WILL NOT remove DISOLVED water. It will remove water that has condensed out from the fuel but wil not remove encapsulated or suspended water. Your engine will pump THAT through just like it is 100% pure fuel.
If you want to cry about a measurable mileage loss, try water contamination "bad fuel" as a reason. Add 3 or 4% water to fuel and you greatly reduce it's BTU capacity and burn characteristics.
1).-- It has already been shown that it is physically impossible to alter the fuel volume 20% or more by it's temperature alone. 1.4%
2).-- It has already been shown that it is physically impossible to alter the heat-generating capacity of a given volume of fuel by 20% or more by altering it's temperature. 1.4%
3).-- It has been shown to be physically AND financially not possible to heat a volume of fuel to expand it and sell the encreased volume for enough $$$ to pay for the operating expense of the expansion equipment.
So how do you STILL try to convince all of us of the impossible?

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I was an owner operator of an Exxon station back in the day and yes the gas does get heated but not by the stations its called Summer time. I remember the pump handles got really warm when filling up vehicles. Also the opposite happened in the Winter the fuel got pretty cold.
Wow AZKC ...... I noted the same thing at my first job pumping gas and spinning wrenches at a gas station back in '84/'85. And to think I always thought it was a massive right-wing (Regan presidency era) conspiracy to keep people's hands from wearing through the plastic covers on the pump handles (expensive buggers to replace I suspected). :)
A similar effect seems to happen at the aircraft plant I work at in Kansas at the bathroom sinks out in the hangers. I get hot water in the summer, ice cold water in the winter. I figured they were trying to save $$$ by not heating it in the winter like they do in the summer. Or is it not coolin git in the summer like they do in the winter ..... I forget which...... hmmmmm :confused:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I have no reason to doubt what someone else reported.
I have EVERY reason to doubt what other people report untill I check it out, especially when it seems at first glance to be outlandish.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Survivor ..................
Before you post more about it.........
I don't care about your lawsuit stories. Visited your site twice now, found nothing to interest me, won't return. Have ordered my computer to never take me there again, because I don't care.
Oh, and have a nice day. :crossx:

[Mighty Thor]

Survivor ..................
Before you post more about it.........
I don't care about your lawsuit stories. Visited your site twice now, found nothing to interest me, won't return. Have ordered my computer to never take me there again, because I don't care.
Oh, and have a nice day. :crossx:
Some one is in serious denial here. You say you don't, but you show you do. Come on you old softy, you can tell the truth here, we are all your family, we love you and we know you love us too. Say you care and be free.

[RiverDave]

I think there's about 2 smart guys in this thread and everyone else... Well I dunno about all that. :D
As far as mpg fluctuations.. Air temp would make a larger difference then fuel temp.. but aside from that your right foot would make the most difference.. but for arguments sake, a 1% grade (probably not noticeable driving) in either direction would accomodate for that.
RD

[Seadog]

Survivor, if you didn't post nonsense like all this carp, I might not be so sarcastic. You have a hard-on for Flying J and have created/modified/extracted "facts" to try to create a bunch of nonsense. Winning a lawsuit does not mean you were in the right. If our legal system is a basis for right and wrong, explain people being found innocent in criminal court and guilty in civil court.
I am sure that there have been numerous things done by employees at Flying Js that are immoral, illegal or stupid. That has nothing to do with this subject. If you had proof they are watering down their diesel, people might be willing to listen. However, since truckers pay close attention to their separators, I doubt you would have proof.
Heating diesel is laughable. There are only two ways that diesel is going to be hot. It was just received from a tanker heated by the sun, or it was stored in an elevated tank in the sunlight. I have experience in heating tanks. An 8000 gallon tank requires a 70,000 watt heating element. That is a small storage tank. To maintain the heat, the tank would have to be doubled walled with foam insulation between walls. In no way would that be viable for any commercial fuel operation.
You want to bad mouth Flying J, go right ahead. Just don't BS us like we are some brain dead morons. It only makes you look like the moron.

[CornWater]

I think there's about 2 smart guys in this thread and everyone else... Well I dunno about all that. :D
As far as mpg fluctuations.. Air temp would make a larger difference then fuel temp.. but aside from that your right foot would make the most difference.. but for arguments sake, a 1% grade (probably not noticeable driving) in either direction would accomodate for that.
RD
Thanks Dave, who is the other?? :rollside:

[Tom Brown]

I tested the fuel temperature at PetroCanada and it seems pretty consistent at -30C.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Maybe they ought to store it in a snowbank there Tom, That way they'd get it heated to 0C and not spend any $$$ doing it. :D

[MRS FLYIN VEE]

maybe they can bottle up this stuff ..
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/719FunnyPart-com-stop_farting.jpg :D

[SB]

rrr that was outstanding.
Pilots get fuel in tons to avoid this type of misunderstanding.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

But, if the airports heat it, oh, say 50 degrees, then the altitude pressure reduction takes over, and it swells more, then the airlines could make flights on only 1/2 the fuel, and that fuel "surcharge" they have going on now would remain, being a complete rip-off profit-maker for the airlines AND the airports. :D :D :D

[SmokinLowriderSS]

maybe they can bottle up this stuff ..
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/719FunnyPart-com-stop_farting.jpg :D
Seriously, what the heck is the story behind THAT picture Mrs Flyin'-V????? :cry:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I'm impressed myself that it made it to 6 pages SWB. :D :D

[mrcrsr]

HR don't take ***boat forum too seriously after all we are just a bunch of retards sitting around while the smart peeps are out boating. The OOIDA I'm sure may be onto something, I'd be interested as to the reason FJ's fuel is so much hotter than all the competitors fuel. Do they store it above ground or something (which would explain it)? If they actually are heating it some way artifically to inflate pricing then that would be a big no no I'd think.
I'd think the cc companies would be all over that surcharge deal too.
they are probably using the fuel to cool their bong!!!!!!!!!!!!!