Any Sugestions?

[burning cole]

I have been playing with my boat all summer trying to fix an overheating problem, last trip out I think I finally got it fixed. Thank god.
Next thing I need to work on is getting the boat to let go and run. I have a 440 Chrysler that turns about 4500-4800 denpending on trim. So once I got her running good I noticed for the first time that I had more power then I could use. Basically I got as fast I thought I could go and the motor does not top out it keeps pulling like it wants to go faster but it does not go any faster. What do I need to do and why is this happening. I know that it is a jet and not very efficient but that is what I have, and like it.
I am going to the river it two weeks, so I have some time to play with it. Any suggestions would be really helpful.

[Bow Tie Omega]

Since you have a jet, have you looked at the impeller and intake grate. These two things can effect performance significantly. What kind of jet do you have. Anything besides a Panther, call MPD, they can take care of you(they are posted all over on this site and are in Costa Mesa). If you have a Panther, do a search on the site for Panthers. There is a guy in LA who does good work on them..I will look now. These are the things I would look for to start with. Hope this helps...Joe
[ September 24, 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Bow Tie Omega ]

[burning cole]

I have a berkely pump that was just rebuilt in the begining of this season. New B impeller. I am not looking to get race ready but when the motor wants to go and the boat does not it pisses me off.

[MikeF]

Do you have any type of pump loading devices i.e. intake grate, shoe and plate? If you can"t get the water in, you can't get the water out.
Any lift devices such as a droop snoot or place diverter.
What hull is it and do you know the approx weight?
:)

[burning cole]

MikeF, Lets see Loading devices, yes I hav an intake grate, but I do not know what a shoe is. I do have a ride plate. And yes I do have a place diverter that I would like to get a better roost out of. it only goes mabye 10 ft. Jim Lange said not to do anything with it because the more water you have shooting in the air the less propelling you forward. The hull type is an 18 ft Cole T-deck. I am not sure of the weight but it is not that heavy. I can move it around on a double axel trailer with ease.
If I am thinking correctly And can explain this in words the bottom of the boat where the water comes in has an intake grate that has 4 bars going vertical, behind that and on the bottom is another peice of metal then you get to the ride plate that extends to the tip of the jet. The intake grate is big enough for me to stick my hand inbetween the bars. And on the side of the intake grate there are fins that are approximatley 1 1/2 to 2 inches long. I have shone a light up there and the angle to the jet is almost no exsistent. Meaning it goes straight to the pump. The pump is set back, so I cannot pull off the inspection plate.
I am relatively new, going on second season, but I am sick of paying people to do the work so i am trying to learn as much as I can to go faster, but stil lhave a very reliable boat. My DREAM is a single normally aspirated 440 that does 80mph.

[MikeF]

BC, It sounds like you have the insert type of pump. I believe it is harder to get the water to turn into the pump in order to keep it loaded because the angle is so sharp.
You say the intake grate has fins but I think it has nothing to force water up into it. Usually there are "ramps" that help water make the turn into the intake.
Normally the shoe is ahead of the plate and helps load the intake w/ more water.
I think that hull you have is a pretty shallow V and should be pretty fast.
Look @ the MPD site and call Jack. He can help you figure out how to improve the performance of your boat.
http://home.pacbell.net/jmcclure/
He's been doing this for a living for a long time! :)

[burning cole]

MikeF. just the opposite on the intake grate the angle is almost perfectgly flat to the pump, meaning the water looks like it goes up a little ramp then to the pump. Do you have a picture of a shoe and where it is placed on the hull. And yes the hull is quiet fast, the hole shot is amazingly quick. It sort of throws your head back as I launch a good six inches out of the water. It is really neat. It is just the top end that I need. I was playing with the timing a while back but I think that I got that taken care of.
Normally the shoe is ahead of the plate and helps load the intake w/ more water. Does this mean it is behind the intake and infront of the plate right? If so I do have one of those. I do not know how to put pictures on this site, but if you go to berkely's sight they have a picture there.
Thanks for all your help!

[MikeF]

BC, These are pics from Jack's site.
http://home.pacbell.net/jmcclure/LoaderVariety2.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/jmcclure/ShoePlateKit2.jpg
These are intake grates and the shoe/plate assys.
I think you still have the stock intake grate?
Pic's of your jet would help in finding out the best route to take.
:)

[burning cole]

I do have the shoe application and the only difference between those intakes and mine are the bars that go over front. I think that I need to take a look under there tonight. I do not want to cut those because I run in either shallow water at Blythe or rocks at Laughlin Topoc and Willowvalley. How much does Jack charge to go through the boat, and find out what else I need?

[burning cole]

if you go to his web site and look at the shoe kit the second picture from the top that shows the whole assembly looks like mine with those fins.

[MikeF]

BC, It seems like you have all the right parts then (or at least close). As far as what he charges is completely up to him. Everything he makes is in house so it should be fairly reasonable (no middle man). He would need to know what you have and then make decisions from there.
I went back and read that you are turning a B impeller 4500 to 4800. That seems a little low (for an A that would be close to correct). You would only be absorbing barely 300+ HP @ 4800. What is the cam that you have in it. Is the carb you have a vac secondary or a D.Pumper?
Adding to the troubleshooting :confused:

[Blown 472]

Kudos on the 440, what is your engine combo? :)

[burning cole]

MikeF. I have enever been able to turn more then 4800. And I have no idea how much horsepower I have. What is the difference between a vac sec. or a double pumper. I know that when I look at there is 4 circles on the top of the carb, and when I get the old lady to hit the gas, gas flows out of all four at the same time. As for the cam????????? I know that it does not idle like some of the big boys toyz but it has a nice little idle to it. If I lower the idle it sounds like I have a blower on it.
Blown472 if it is not obvious already I am not to knowledgable on motors( but I am learning). If you describe what you are talking about I know what the motor looks like really well as I am out there once a week or more playing with little things and cleaning it up. I have been told that motor is very tight(?) and pulls very very hard? I only loose 5 psi in oil pressure going from Laughlin through Topoc to the sand bar at 3500-4000 rpms. But like I was saying it keeps pulling and the boat no go. It is like I am driving with a pairshoot on, or like it is waiting to hit a second gear and take off. I have noticed from some pictures of the boat at top speed that only about the last 6 inches of the boat are in the water so I know that I am getting lift????

[Blown 472]

If you look on the side of the block you will find casting numbers as to what year the motor is, also there is a flat machined pad right next to the dist with some numbers stamped into it, this too will give any idea of what you have. Did you look in the pump maybe you got something in there?? stick maybe. :cool:

[MikeF]

That's good that the pump won't let the engine rev over 4800....that means the pump is loaded and pretty efficient (albeit a little low for a B impeller).
This link is from the Berk site and shows you how much HP your jet is letting your engine make.
http://www.berkeleyjet.com/products/249.asp
If fuel is flowing out of the 4 barrels then you know the secondaries are opening (good).
I think if you want to go faster, you're gonna need more HP. wink
Send me a pic of your ride! I'd like to see it! :D

[BOFH]

MikeF. I have enever been able to turn more then 4800. And I have no idea how much horsepower I have. OK, A real basic question here, but no one has asked it yet... If you have never gone more than 4800, what makes you think you can? You could be at the upper end of that engine and starting to float valves, pump lifters, and just be generally out of breath. A "stock" engine can float anywhere from 4200 to 5000, and won't go higher in nutral. Could be you just need more impeller for a high torque motor.

[burning cole]

BOFH:
MikeF. I have enever been able to turn more then 4800. And I have no idea how much horsepower I have. OK, A real basic question here, but no one has asked it yet... If you have never gone more than 4800, what makes you think you can? You could be at the upper end of that engine and starting to float valves, pump lifters, and just be generally out of breath. A "stock" engine can float anywhere from 4200 to 5000, and won't go higher in nutral. Could be you just need more impeller for a high torque motor.Bofh, Like I was saying the motor has more power that it wants to give. It feels like it needs to go into second gear. And I thought that boats really do not have a nuetral, there is always a load on it!? If I reved the motor to 4800 with the gate over the jet I would probably sink the boat. HAHA Should I try to do it on the trailer, I have never ran it over an idle on the trailer.
MikeF If I go by that chart it says somewhere around 300 hp. Is that good. Should I be content with what I have and stop bitching I mean it runs right. and I can through a roost at Sea-Doos. But what is bugging me is that the motor wants to make the boat go faster. Last time out a mechanic friend of mine that redid the ingnition system says that it pulls to hard at top end and should be going faster. But he does a lot of v-drives and cost a fortune. And how do I get more HP. I just talked to a guy that has some pictures of my boat and a scanner, he is going to e-mail them to me tonight, then I will forward them to you. Do you know how to get them on the boards?

[burning cole]

MikeF just looked at the picture underneath your name. Mine is similar to that, but I took off the Scoop like yours and put a low profile one on.

[burning cole]

Blown 472 I only was able to find one number on the block and it really was not on the block. It was on the alternator arm coming from the block and it read CCC040. I think that this may be just a part number. I looked all over the block and could not find any id.

[burning cole]

Blown 472 I only was able to find one number on the block and it really was not on the block. It was on the alternator arm coming from the block and it read CCC040. I think that this may be just a part number. I looked all over the block and could not find any id.

[burning cole]

[img]http:free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jpg

[burning cole]

well that did not work, where do I type this to get my picture up./

[MikeF]

BC, Go back to the pic on the media center.
Double click on the pic to enlarge
Put the arrow on the pic, "right" click on the pic and the URL will show up.
Copy this and put http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/tn_jp1.JPG
Do not put any spaces between
Try again wink

[burning cole]

[img]http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jp1.JPG[img]

[burning cole]

http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jp1.JPG[img]]web page (http://[img)

[burning cole]

http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jp1.JPG[img]]http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jp1.JPG (http://[img)

[burning cole]

http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jp1.JPG[img]]http://free.***boat.net/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats&image=jp1.JPG&i mg=&tt= (http://[img)

[MikeF]

AAAHHHGGGG
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jp1.JPG
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jp2.JPG
Keep trying....you'll figure it out! :D

[MikeF]

I messed up too.
When you right click on the enlarged pic, you need to click on "properties" @ the bottom
This will show you the URL
OOps! :rolleyes:

[burning cole]

http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/jp1.JPG[img]]readers rides (http://[img)

[BOFH]

Bofh, Like I was saying the motor has more power that it wants to give. It feels like it needs to go into second gear. Ah Ha! That is what I thought. You are running out of RPMs, but have a lot of power. You need to up your gear ratio. On a car, it's ring and pinion. On a prop baot it is more pitch. I havn't played with many jets, but I assume a taller impeller is what you need. Check ou the jet fourm. My guess is that the engine is great, but you need some drive tuning.

[burning cole]

BOFH:
Bofh, Like I was saying the motor has more power that it wants to give. It feels like it needs to go into second gear. Ah Ha! That is what I thought. You are running out of RPMs, but have a lot of power. You need to up your gear ratio. On a car, it's ring and pinion. On a prop baot it is more pitch. I havn't played with many jets, but I assume a taller impeller is what you need. Check ou the jet fourm. My guess is that the engine is great, but you need some drive tuning.I just need to find someone able to tune it up. Based on what you have read what do you think would be a good top speed to obtain?

[LVjetboy]

Based on what I read, confusing. BOFH had a good ?, why do you think you can top 4800 with that engine?
How do you know the engine has more power and not topped out? You can't tell by sound or feel alone. How do you know your boat wants to go faster but can't? Your mechanic friend blowing smoke? Not saying that your hull can't go faster or that your setup isn't holding you back, just that sound and feel don't give many clues. Especially with little jet seat time such as your mechanic with more experience in v-drives than jets.
The first step is to understand what is limiting speed and go from there. If your engine's only putting out 300 hp, then assuming it "wants" to go higher may be misleading...
Is your tach accurate? 4800 rpm on a B isn't a lot of hp. Even with a tight wear ring and well-built pump. With a loose pump hp predicted is over the mark. Verify numbers then troubleshoot.
You say at top speed just the last 6 inches of hull are in the water? Unlikely unless you're over 200+ mph. If your ride is that aired out at 4800, then something's really strange here. Do you have pics of this? True numbers are key.
Your pulling power, acceleration and neck snaping ability sounds great but don't alway lead to top end speed. As in low end performance is no gaurantee of top speed. Is you hull bottom straight?
You say your engine keeps "pulling" but the boat's no go. This seems to indicate a pump loading problems as in rpm on the top end increasing while speed says the same.
As for the dream of a reliable 440 that does 80. Absolutely possible for both a jet and a 440 on a good hull. Just need to solve one thing at a time.
jer

[burning cole]

LVJet boy. Thanks for a comprehensive look at the thread. I will do my best to answer the questions.
No I think that 4800 RPMs is not going to be able to be topped. When I said that they boat wants to go faster it is like a car that plateau's like it is hitting a governer. But with my boat I hit top end and the motor is still hitting hard. I guess it is hard to explain until you drive it.
I will call the guy today that rebuilt my pump just to verify that it is an B cut impeller. I am almost positive it is.
As far as being aired out, if you look at the picture above and notice where the white turns to blue at the back of the boat, that is where the water stops at least in the picture. I could have hit a little wave at the time of the picture.
I did take a 5ft long straight edge and placed along the hull, there was not a single deveation from the straight edge, So I am assuming yes the hull is straight.
Pump loading problem is possible, but Would I not here some cavitation. What is the easiest way to find out if it is cavitating? Would I have to replace the intake. I will try to find out if it is the stock Berkeley intake or if the guy upgraded. The boat seems to have had someone put a lot of money into the motor. So I would be assuming that they upgraded the intake.

[BOFH]

Right now you have too many variables. You need to get some solid numbers on what you can measure. First, barrow or rent a Tech/Dwell meter, and make sure 4800 really is 4800. Next barrow/rent a GPS and measure true speed, then stop and measure current. Useing that calulate your slip. If it is big, you have either the wrong impeller, or bad cavitation.
Next, if you normally run in fresh water, take it to salt water. Salt water is heavier than fresh water, and so it is a small bump in gear ratio. At the same RPM you should have a slightly higher top speed. (About %5 to %10 change in speed) If you don't make the 4800 RPM, you may not have the power you think. Also, you could load down the boat with a lot of extra weight. You should hit the same RPM and close to the same speed, if you have power to spare.

[burning cole]

BOFH, Two things. I measure speed on Gps then I stop and measure how fast the river is flowing either add or subtract that depending on which way I am going. Is that what you are saying? I will never run the boat in Salt Water. But I have loaded the thing down and no matter how much weight I have in the boat it does not matter it takes off like there is nothing in there. I will take a tach/dwell meter with me next time out just to be sure. I thought about it again and I do not understand what you are saying by slip.

[LVjetboy]

Cole, I couldn't see the pics at speed but those on the trailer look sweet! I like the blue and grey trim.
If your hull is straight and riding dry that helps narrow down. May be a clue in your "hit the governer" or plateau feeling on the top end. Is it like the last gain in rpm's gives no change in speed? Or the last push of the pedal gives no change in rpms? Not all pump cavitation can be heard. If the intake cavitates bad, pump unloading can be both heard and felt. But if only part of the impeller isn't loaded, you won't hear or feel anything wrong, just be short on speed.
jer

[BOFH]

BOFH, Two things. I measure speed on Gps then I stop and measure how fast the river is flowing either add or subtract that depending on which way I am going. Is that what you are saying? I will never run the boat in Salt Water. But I have loaded the thing down and no matter how much weight I have in the boat it does not matter it takes off like there is nothing in there. I will take a tach/dwell meter with me next time out just to be sure. It sounds like you have good solid numbers...
I thought about it again and I do not understand what you are saying by slip This is a calulation. If you are in a car, you can take your RPM, and factor your gear ratio and tire size to get your overall speed. In a boat, however, you do not have perfect traction, so your calulation will be off. That factor it is off by is "slip." This factor will change with speed, as well. What you are looking for is an unusual number, or a spot where the factor jumps. A high unusual factor over the whole range indicates a incorrect or damaged impeler or housing. A big jump at the end indicates cavitation.

[DansBlown73Nordic]

Super sharp boat.. wink

[burning cole]

Dans66Stevens:
Super sharp boat.. wink Thanks, for the compliment. Now if I can just get it to go fast. j/k it is quick but like the post said, there are some speed issues. I would also like to clean up the engine area. Wire harness, underneath the block. There was a classic Hallett on these boards for a long time that I was so invious of, but I can not find it. The motor was so clean. I will try again.