Please show me your bottom. [Archive]

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DeputyDawg

08-07-2005, 04:22 PM

No you freaks, this isn't a gay thread! After trying to do a little research at the races and at the lake/river I have found that most boaters who own a hard running tunnel hull with a modified keel/bottom/spoon/whatever are very gaurded and usually act like they are carrying around secrets which are of a matter of national security. I have very politely asked several people(racers and hot-boaters) if I could take pictures and or measurements of there bottom mods only to find that they are not usually very receptive to this. Why I ask? I just don't get it. I mean if drag boat racing was on the level of NHRA Pro Stock and the same amount of money was on the line I could see someone trying to hide every hundredth to gain an advantage in order to win the big bucks, but come on, if you win the biggest jet boat purse in the country your winnings check probably won't cover your costs of racing that weekend. I don't mean to sound so bitter about this but I just don't get it I guess. Why all the black magic top secret voodoo bullshit? I would think those in the know would be more than willing to offer up a little knowledge or at least let a guy slide under their boat and take a look. I have found most boat racers and hot boaters to be more than helpful and willing to lend a helping hand except when it comes to this particular area, oh ya, and don't even ask about their top secret alien imported krytonite loader. All that being said, is their anyone out there that is willing to show and share pics and measurements of their bottom mods especially on tunnel hulls? I would be very interested in looking at Daytona, Cheyenne, Stealth, Placecraft, Southwind, CP, Youngblood and any other tunnel bottom/keel mods. If you are really kind and would like to share pictures and or info about your loader that would also be appreciated. I know I can't be the only one interested in this. Any help will be very much appreciated!

UBFJ #454

08-07-2005, 05:35 PM

Race Bottoms and their SetUps are Very Particular to Individual Hulls (even hulls from the same mold), pump mounting and all the other things that go into CG's and Weights and Balances ... If your looking to do a Dropped Race Keel on your Buddy's boat, 'The Best One' is going to be Different than anything any of us could show you in pictures.
That having been said, anytime you come near us your more than Welcome to Crawl Up Under our boat and 'Take A Look' ... and I'll explain how ours Works ... Marriage of Keel Shape, Loader(s), Impeller, Ride Plate(s), Nozzle(s), etc.. Even give you ideas on dimensions ... But ... NO MEASUREMENTS, OR, PHOTOS/VIDEO, INTERNET POSTINGS, ETC. ... We'll Share Generalities/Philosophy IN PERSON ...
Believe It Or Not ... There Are Currently Some REAL Money Races and Promoters are putting together more Yearly ... So we keep everything EXCEPT MATTERS OF SAFETY to Ourselves.
Welcome To Racing!

DeputyDawg

08-08-2005, 05:31 PM

Thanks Bear.
It's good to hear they are finally starting to pay now days. So, what are they paying to win in the jet classes and fast brackets at the big money races now?

Duane HTP

08-08-2005, 05:35 PM

Smokin in the cove pays $10,000.00.

steelcomp

08-08-2005, 06:06 PM

DD...the problem is that most guys are having this stuff done for them, save a few exceptions, and really don't know what to tell you. It's like a race motor. Ask the guy who owns the boat to give you the cam specs, or ask what springs he's running, and he usually dosen't have a clue. So to save embarassment, they have to act all cool 'n shit, like it's NASCAR. But, be persistant, and you'll find there really isn't any black magic. Every boat is different, and it's difficult to nail down a "general rule of thmb" when it comes to keels, bottoms, and loaders. Like Jack said, every application is different, and the guys who really know what to tell you through experience and knowlede are few and far between. It's a process of trial and error. It's one thing to know "what" a spoon is, or a dropped keel, or any of the other catch phrases, but to know how they apply to your particular application is the secret. Like jack, there are those out there who have some useful knowledge, and are wiling to share in a limited capacity. You just kinda have to be in the right place at the right time. Go to the races, and hang out. That's the best advice.
One other thing you have to remember. These guys are as serious about their racing as anyone, anywhere. They spend a LOT of mony to get tenths of a second. It's like any other racing...you gotta pay to play, unless you're smart enough to figure it out for yourself. These guys have hours and hours, and mucho $$ invested in these measley jet boats, and they aren'ty about to give some new guy an edge. The way it is, one day a guy is a river racer, the next thing you know he's kickin your butt, because you told him how to set a pump back. :D

Rampager

08-08-2005, 06:21 PM

LakesOnly

08-08-2005, 06:24 PM

Please show me your bottom.
Say, where is FourQ anyway?
:D
LO

MikeF

08-08-2005, 06:56 PM

be more than happy to show you pics of my bottom, will it shock you when you see a rock grate and a whole lotta steel down there tho? haha tool steel skid plates and an alloy tunnel, gotta love it......
cheers
I've heard you guys up there in Canada that live on the river, do tons of testing. You put on a bondo spoon and test, then you try another shape and test again.....and again....and again. Kinda easy when the water is right in your backyard.
Post some pics! :cool:

steelcomp

08-08-2005, 07:01 PM

I've heard you guys up there in Canada that live on the river, do tons of testing. You put on a bondo spoon and test, then you try another shape and test again.....and again....and again. Kinda easy when the water is right in your backyard.
Post some pics! :cool:
Heck, I've heard stories of that kinda thing going on at Ming. Late night bottom thrashing with Bondo!! If it didn't wotk, off it came between rounds! Crazy stuff. :confused:

steelcomp

08-08-2005, 07:02 PM

Boy Named Sue

08-08-2005, 07:04 PM

steelcomp

08-08-2005, 08:24 PM

I wouldn't be shocked but I'd like to see it. Sounds like armor. Gow own....GIT!

NELSON#109

08-08-2005, 08:38 PM

if any one wants to see what kind of bottom work has been done to my cp tunnel, come to the race and take a look. ill give you all the info i can on anything i run, or any work ive done. i've run into a few people that keep secrets, but for the most part people will give it up. if you take somthing from me and end up spanking me with it, i'll be cool w/ that. i get a bunch of help, and like to give it. come to the races, and dig in. as far as bottoms, i've seen so many different botttoms, i would'nt know what would work best. just find the right people, and if your a good person, they'll answer your questions. BEAT IT, NELSON#109

DeputyDawg

08-08-2005, 10:01 PM

Thank you Nelson. And steelcomp is right as well. There is no F'ing black magic, but there are lessons that have been learned through experience and that is better than black magic any day! It just amuses the hell out of me that in the grand scheme of things people get all worked up when you want to check out their boat. Hell, most of those same guys would probably tell you anything you wanted to know about their wife and kids or where they keep the spare keys to everything they own, but Oh No, not the boat bottem, after all we are trying to save the world here! I understand hard work and have raced competitively my whole life in many different forms of racing, but I must say that drag boat racing(especially jets) is the only sport that I have seen where people will act all secretive like that when there is almost no money to be made. Duane mentioned a $10,000 dollar race, and that is awesome, but that is the one and only exception to the NO money deal and that race is a 1000' foot race which just so happens to make it an excellent oppurtunity for a real quick jet to when the whole deal. Otherwise tell me of ONE race where in a jet boat class you can win more than $3000.00 for winning the race? I am not trying to piss anyone off, I just don't get it. And steel comp is also right when he said most people have it done and couldn't tell you about it if they wanted to. Oh ya, one more thing. If every hull is so different even if from the same mold then why in the hell would anyone care if you looked and took pictures or measurements?????

bottom feeder

08-08-2005, 10:13 PM

Bottom of my tin jet
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1501BOAT_BOTTOM-med.jpg
Sorry the bottom side is a big secret! O wait it looks pretty much the same :D :D

ONAROLL

08-08-2005, 11:43 PM

Dawg,
I would like to add a little something on new boats and bottoms, A new boat fresh out of the mold, no matter who builds it, is not a maximum efficiency bottom, last winter I was in a shop with two identical brand new hulls side by side, I asked why he had been "grinding" and "filling" on one of the brand new unrigged boats? holy shit did I get an education, Im not a guy that just because he is talking to a "supposed" guru believes anything without proof, so I kept throwing "why" at him, and he would not stop until I understood hydrodynamics and Jet propulsion in a new light, he put me under every boat in his shop (including current champions) for two hours explaining designs and inherent flaws in each. I dont think there is any "Black Magic" just a lot of years in racing trying to improve with every pass, when you achieve results and you are in buisness to make a living and take care of your family, I dont think some rock head off the internet deserves to have all the Research and Development handed to him, Damn, thats a good boat name, I'll shorten it to R&D, maybe not.................Vic

Unchained

08-09-2005, 03:34 AM

http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220keel1-med.jpghttp://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220keel2-med.jpg

BrendellaJet

08-09-2005, 08:18 AM

perhaps you should use the trial and error method like many of the racers have, and/or pay someone to set it up. Its clear some people take winning more seriously than you do, its not always about the paycheck.

DeputyDawg

08-09-2005, 01:09 PM

Brendellajet your missing the point. I do take winning very seriously, and I also take safety very seriously. For the safety reasons alone when it comes to jet boats I just thought more people would be willing to help. It is hard for me to get my poiny across here on the keyboard so I will just end this discussion here and now. I probably will have someone "in the know" do the bottom of the race boat, and I may modify it and try new things occaisionaly myself in search of the elusive perfect set up. Just take a look at what Nelson said, that is a statement from someone who truly loves these boats and racing them. I have raced comp, super comp, pro, super pro, late model stock cars, limited sportsmen cars, all kinds of braket cars, motorcycles and lots of other stuff including classes with spec engines that you can't touch. I like to beat people by out racing/driving them, not because I know a secret. Have a nice day! :D

Rampager

08-09-2005, 01:40 PM

Well Ive never had any luck posting pics here but I can try again now.
Here are a few shots of the bottom of my 21.5 Eagle tunnel. This boat has the race setup so 3/16" QT100 steel is where its at for hittin them pesky rocks at 80+ mph lol The "spoon" as its refered to is the 2nd layer of steel visible ahead of the intake. The rock grate is not attached in the pics but includes a short 'ride plate' behind the pump (grate bolts both infront and behind the intake opening) The bondo "black magic" stuff happens around the rear of the spoon area in front of the grate, from what Im told anyway, you can see some remaining bondo still. I have not yet played with this part yet.
The left "runner" is missing in the photo but the forward sponsons are protected with UHMW plastic.(the black stuff) Might not be the prettiest bottom around but I love it :D hehe
Cheers
haha ss usual, won't post says "not a valid image", pic is jpg, 39K, 579X384 so what am i doin wrong?????????

DeputyDawg

08-09-2005, 01:51 PM

Hey Rampager, I can't post pics either so don't feel bad. I may have to talk to some of those aluminum boat set up guys about doing my bottom. Hell, they can keep a 120mph boats pump loaded without even using a shoe or loader and all the while keep the rock grate.

Rampager

08-09-2005, 03:04 PM

BUSBY

08-09-2005, 03:10 PM

Deputy and Rampager ...
go here for a step by step about picture posting ... it helped me ... thanks to Rexone!
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/announcement.php?f=20

steelcomp

08-09-2005, 05:45 PM

I've often wondered what the difference is between the 2 camps. Its no easy task keeping a pump loaded when you also have to worry about rock strikes. A loader wouldn't last 10 mins on a tin boat so the technology behind the spoon etc would really be worth a serious look. I'd persue that if I was you
Cheers
(anyone else help us with the pic mystery?)
Hey Rampager, I think the difference between the two camps is the time it takes you to get up to top speed. I heard you guys with the real small openings have to actually start down stream before you can get up enough speed to turn up stream. Is that true? A loader on a drag jet loads the pump far quicker, and most of these jets are up to full speed in seconds.
Just a thought. :D

Aluminum Squirt

08-09-2005, 06:13 PM

Steelcomp, we start out upriver to get more water speed under the boat, just like an airplane, always into the wind to make the air speed higher than the ground speed. Get it up on plane upriver and then turn around if you happen to be racing down river on that particular leg. My boat is by no means quick, but I can get on plane w/o too much drama. My boat is only a 15' sprint with a V bottom and small horsepower. Some of the upper class tunnels that are really set up to fly have a very difficult time getting on plane.
Rampager, I've always wondered how a finely tuned race tunnel would perform if you just changed out the steel nozzle for a droop with a PD. No doubt you would lose some top end, but I wonder if it would launch very well? I used to have a Legend nozzle with a PD and it launched quite well, but my bottom is a sprint bottom and my top speed is somewhere around 70. With the steel nozzle, you could beat me to 30MPH in a row boat. After that it starts to work pretty well, no loader/spoon, just a rock grate and small ride plate-Aluminum Squirt
PS-I'm not smart enough to post pictures either and nobody wants to see the beat up bottom of a 70MPH boat

Duane HTP

08-09-2005, 06:32 PM

396_WAYS_TO_SPIT

08-09-2005, 06:46 PM

We don't care, you can see anything we do. We have 4 race boats in the shop right now that have all had the bottorms done. If you're ever in our area, come in, we'll show you some boat bottoms. No secerets! Just a lot of trial and error, until they work best for each boat.
Well put;) Thats why I like duane;) He tells it like it is, pont blank!! Bergeron engineering is the same way with thier flatties! Screw all this secret nonsense, its just an arrogance thing. I thought racers help racers :confused: :confused: Duane always comes on here and helps people. He doesnt have to, but he does. Thats what a good person does and it earns him good business. People remember that kind of stuff and it comes back around sooner or later;)
396

DeputyDawg

08-09-2005, 09:51 PM

You're a hell of a guy Duane, I gotta make a trip up there some time. How is that purple cheyenne coming along?

Rampager

08-13-2005, 05:18 PM

Still no luck posting pics but I CAN show ya the results/benefits of having that bulletproof bottom. Squirtcha, you'll love these pics........
http://www.nzjetboating.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=5358.0
haha
Cheers