460 (super cobra jet heads)

[Danhercules]

I have a 460 with SCJ heads. High rise manifold with 2 750DP and a set of headers.
The cam is stock or close to stock. I have no clue what it is, in fact i am sure the bottom end is stock.
This winter I am gonna rebuil the pump and look into cam and roller tip rockers.
Now the ?'s What is a good size cam to run. I want more power, I am guessing I have about 400hp (friends tell me this). Are the heads good? Should I have them worked on. I dont want to run race gas. I have good intake flow and good exhaust flow. I think whats holding it back is the cam. I was told the heads are a good set. What do you guys think.
Thanks for the help.
Here are the numbers I got off the heads. 20439 and DOOE-R
[ July 31, 2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Danhercules ]

[Blown 472]

I had a set as they would not work in the rpm range my boat ran in, I put a set of dove's on and it ran much better.
cj's are a big rpm head, but if you cam and cut your imp you could get into the rpm range they like.

[Danhercules]

Right now I am running at 4500 RPM at WOT at 61 MPH.

[SeaYaBye]

Two FoMoCo cams to consider;A-443 lift 562in 588ex dur234in 244ex or C-460 lift 588in 614ex or Isky 525 lift dur 278in 234ex. Those heads are good but need lots of rpm's. Try camming it and see what happens. Good Luck T.R.C :cool:

[Danhercules]

SeaYaBye:
Two FoMoCo cams to consider;A-443 lift 562in 588ex dur234in 244ex or C-460 lift 588in 614ex or Isky 525 lift dur 278in 234ex. Those heads are good but need lots of rpm's. Try camming it and see what happens. Good Luck T.R.C :cool: What else do I have to do to get lots of RPM"S? How do I now if my valve springs are strong enough? Do I have to do anything to the bottom end?
I am new to the V8 world, so I may ask stupid questions. Thanks

[Blown 472]

Danhercules:
SeaYaBye:
Two FoMoCo cams to consider;A-443 lift 562in 588ex dur234in 244ex or C-460 lift 588in 614ex or Isky 525 lift dur 278in 234ex. Those heads are good but need lots of rpm's. Try camming it and see what happens. Good Luck T.R.C :cool: What else do I have to do to get lots of RPM"S? How do I now if my valve springs are strong enough? Do I have to do anything to the bottom end?
I am new to the V8 world, so I may ask stupid questions. Thanks If you are going to cam up, do buy the cam kit, lifters, springs, retainers, locks dont try to compromise on this as you will kill a cam, break a spring etc. One thing to look out for on the cj head on a 460 is the valve to piston clearance as these heads never cam stock on a 60 the valve reliefs do not match the valves as they are much bigger so if you cam up you MUST check that.
Ask all the questions you want that is why we are here.

[Danhercules]

Are you talking about the grooves or cut outs in the pistons? How is that checked?
I was also told that the rocker ratio is 1.73 to 1. Dose that mean anything to the valve clearance?

[SeaYaBye]

Your bottom end should be fine depending on how may hours are on it. As for the valve springs if there is any question go with stronger aftermarket ones to be sure and those roller rockers you spoke of. Also make sure your timing set up is the 429 gears. Most 460's have the set up that retards the timing 8 degrees[for smog regs] The 429 is a bolt on mod that helps[cheap too!] And no question is a stupid one[unless I ask it!!] T.R.C. :D

[Blown 472]

Danhercules:
Are you talking about the grooves or cut outs in the pistons? How is that checked?
I was also told that the rocker ratio is 1.73 to 1. Dose that mean anything to the valve clearance? Yup, the 429 has one big ol cut in it for the intake and non for the exhaust, the 460 has a dish or four eyebrows but for some reason they dont really line up with the valve.
The ratio is that, nope. bigger cam will affect that.

[UtlGoa]

Here is the set up I'm running. 429 block with four bolt mains, 460 crank, super cobra jet heads, SVO intake manifold, 850 vac sec holley, clay smith solid cam and lifters, roller rockers, Manly stainless steel valves, titanium retainers and locks through transom exhaust.
I never had a problem with the piston to valve clearance. I'm running trw forged piston's with the four valve reliefs. Call Clay Smith and have him set you up with what you need. He can set up your cam, springs, retainers, locks and lifters, and timing chain if you need it.

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

watch the overlap on the valves also. them big valves have been known to hit each other with big overlap cams.
Omega

[waterslinger]

Great head for a car but not so good in a low rpm
boat deal. Dooe-r is the casting number for CJ's.
The Dove-c is good on boats. Be sure to to put hard valve seats in any pre 75 head. I looked at the cost of setting up a set of heads valves,seats
etc. it was so high just got a set of Edelbrocks.

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

waterslinger:
Great head for a car but not so good in a low rpm
boat deal. Dooe-r is the casting number for CJ's.
The Dove-c is good on boats. Be sure to to put hard valve seats in any pre 75 head. I looked at the cost of setting up a set of heads valves,seats
etc. it was so high just got a set of Edelbrocks. that brings up a good suggestion. sell your heads on ebay and buy the edelbrocks. they are awesome for what you are doing. you should get enough for those heads to justify the new ones. I bet you could get 750+ for them from a Mustang guy. As blown said those heads don't start to work until 5500+ rpm. they have such large ports that they require big rpm to increase tunnel velocity. The dove-c's would be good (btw c8ve,c9ve's are virtually the same, I think the c9's have the exhaust crossover where c8's don't)it really depends on how much you want to spend. the edelbrocks are highly recommended though.
Omega

[UtlGoa]

Waterslinger,
Where do you get that Cj heads are not good for a boat? I had Dove heads and I hated them. My motor is running Cj heads and they are night and day compaired to the dove heads

[Blown 472]

waterslinger:
Great head for a car but not so good in a low rpm
boat deal. Dooe-r is the casting number for CJ's.
The Dove-c is good on boats. Be sure to to put hard valve seats in any pre 75 head. I looked at the cost of setting up a set of heads valves,seats
etc. it was so high just got a set of Edelbrocks. Dont waste your time putting seats in iron heads, did it one fell out, Talked to George at clay smith and he told me cuz the heating and cooling vairies so much that seats dont work, do spend your money on a good stainless valve. The reason being the stainless valve will retain it's shape and not pound the seat out. The stock valve moves around and then starts in one spot and pounds the seat out.
I run stainless valves and some off the shelf lead additive and have not pounded a seat out for as long as I have owned the boat.

[LakesOnly]

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
them big valves have been known to hit each other with big overlap cams.
Omega Don't worry about this DHercules...it doesn't apply to you.
This was true only on the earliest of the first run of aluminum 429 heads. The problem was quickly corrected and it is not likely anyone will see this...just a proper thing to evaluate on the original A-429 heads if you have a pair...
LO

[LakesOnly]

Hey Dan,
What Southwind do you have? The Original or the T-Deck? I have a T-Deck with a 460 also.
LO

[Blown 472]

A interesting read on valves, got it from the moparts site, lakes you should check it out.
priced out EVERY ITEM on a W-5 Build Intake to Pan for a guy from NY about a month ago, including an upgrade to 4 bolt billet Pro Gram caps, 4" Crank, ATI damper, Milodon pan, Eagle H beams, Ross Flat Tops, Custom Comp Cam, Smith Bro's Pushrods, W-5's, T&D Rockers (used), INDY Intake, Fully ported heads...... It came in JUST under $8000 including all machine work and port work. That included the price of the block, EVERYTHING.....It would have been about a 630 HP Motor, Flat tappet cam...It was basically a copy of B3Stroker's Motor with his new cam. If he had more $ We were going to upgrade to a Roller.
So I'm not convinced these Hemi heads are anything to be drooling over. They have all the same downsides of a 426 Hemi, Heavy pistons, with terrible flame travel, quench problems, Heavy Rocker arms, piss poor valvetrain geometry for RPM etc etc.
I see they did put a 2.02" intake valve in, hopefully they kept the runners relatively small as well otherwise they will be a real pig on a non big inch or forced induction motor.
1.75" Exhaust valve? [censored]? More crack smoking going on. I've seen a 1.625" valve put up over 260 cfm on my bench with a good designed small exhaust port (NO tube) These guys and their oversized exhaust valves are funny. I'm sitting here looking at W-5 Exhaust flow #'s with a 1.60" valve spanking a certain 1.81" valve head I recently had on the bench. Big valves on the exhaust side is not always the answer. I was discussing this with W5Dart66 the other night and he was mentioning the GM Sprint car motors he see's dynoed all the time in person are now down to a 1.55" Exhaust valve. Apparently they keep going smaller and smaller over the years, realizing that bigger is not always better. Those motors make between 810-825 HP on Alky out of 410" Naturally Aspirated. Now try to convince me you need a bigger exhaust valve.....

[LakesOnly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blown 472:
A interesting read on valves, got it from the moparts site, lakes you should check it out.
priced out EVERY ITEM on a W-5 Build Intake to Pan
Check it, Blown:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=2425719597
LO

[Blown 472]

you going to buy that?
I thought that stuff on the exhaust valve size was interesting as we were talking bout that not to long ago.
[ July 31, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[Danhercules]

Its a regular. No tunnel and no "T" deck. I dont know what its called. Heres a pic.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/467vic_and_herc.JPG

[LakesOnly]

Blown 472:
you going to buy that?
Not with the way it's laying around the garage floor...have to personally inspect first...you know me.
LO

[Danhercules]

Let me give some background
I bought the boat for $2500 with fresh rebuild that never hit the water.
I got it from a friend (Tom) that bought it from his friend (Bob). Bob was given the boat to settle a debt from yet another guy. The motor was blown up. He rebuilt it, I have recepts but there is no real detail. I will list below what I have. Bob sold the boat to Tom for $2500. Tom took the tandum axel trailer and the drverter. Tom sold me the boat for $2500. He got a free trailer and a free diverter.
Now, when I look at the motor, I see lots of good things IMO. I see braded lines, 750DP, highrise manifold, SCJ heads. Why would anybody put all this on a motor with out making a lot of HP. I think it did use to make a lot. Now, I think it has a stock cam and timing gears. Just a guess. I am guessing it has good flow in the intake, and the exhaust. The SCJ heads are made to flow at high RPM its seems. ( that what I am getting from you guys). So, the weak like is the cam. Right????? Here is a pic of the valve train. There is one rocker that is diffrent. See it?
Motor was rebuilt by Waynes Engine Rebuilders. Recept shows
1 shortblock #1375102 for $575.00
Build Cust Core
Brass freeze plugs.
Heads where in shop too. At Dougans.
1 intake valve sev-2822
1 Exaust valve sev-2821
2 1pc+1 08810 valve seal.
Parts hot taked and mag.
Repair 1 chamber, cut seat and replace valve.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/467valves.JPG

[LakesOnly]

Danhercules:
Its a regular. No tunnel and no "T" deck. I dont know what its called. Heres a pic.
Ahh, a Southwind "Original Jet." Engine-length stringers, flat deck, seat pans glassed into the floor....It's a general purpose lake boat with a nice hull bottom.
I have the T-Deck, with full-length stringers, parquette floor, blah-blah-blah.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/350Anderson_New_Motor-med.jpg
Mine is to yours as, say, a Z28 is to a base model Camaro....? Whatever...
LO

[LakesOnly]

So your motor dropped a valve....
Gotta go back to work...check your email DH and write me back...
LO
[ July 31, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: LakesOnly ]

[Danhercules]

Is the bottom of the hull the same?

[Blown 472]

Looks like a chev rocker.

[UtlGoa]

Nope, that there is a stock rocker for a cobra jet head

[Blown 472]

UtlGoa:
Nope, that there is a stock rocker for a cobra jet head Take a look at the poly locks, notice anything?

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

Blown 472:
UtlGoa:
Nope, that there is a stock rocker for a cobra jet head Take a look at the poly locks, notice anything? other than the fact he's only got about 2 threads holding it wink definitely not the right rocker. invest in some good roller rockers anyhow
Omega

[victorfb]

i dont get the rocker deal here. can it be that the pushrod was replaced with one that is longer? that may acount for the lack of threads on the stud. if so, that threw your rocker geometry WAY off. lets fix that thing dan.

[Danhercules]

Also, With the heads wanting high rps, over 5500, what do I have to look for in the bottom end? how high will a stock bottom end rev?

[LakesOnly]

Danhercules:
With the heads wanting high rpms, over 5500, how high will a stock bottom end rev? If you indeed have a stock 460 bottom end, then you are pushing the limits of your connecting rods.
To exceed 5500 for any extended period of time, your stock rods had better have aftermarket rod bolts a la ARP or Milodon.
My impeller holds my motor to just 5400, and it goes 79 mph. Wanting your engine to rev higher is asking for a high maintenance engine...
LO
[ July 31, 2003, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: LakesOnly ]

[Danhercules]

I have been doing a lot of searching on this site. Damn, you have a ton of info an knowlage.
I would be sooooooooo happy with 79MPH.
I dont need to go over 5500. 5400 would be fine. How much HP are you running? What motor specs are you running? What heads are you running? What impeller and pump work do you have? I dont have the $ to get into a bottom end. Thats why I was asking about how high it could rev. If its true, what you sayin about the SCJ heads, I dont need them. I want to keep my intake and carbs the same. I was planning on going to a roller cam, and roller tiprockers and rebuilding my pump this winter.
If 550HP can get me 75 to 80, and I can do it for cheep, I will be soooooo happy.
I hope I did not offend you in the email I sent you. I saw you name all over the place with some crazy knowlage. Thanks.

[Blown 472]

For what is it worth I will give you my combo.
60 over 460, d3ve heads with 2.19 intakes and 1.76 exhausts, comp flat tappet cam 282s crower rockers. Ported them myself, red line center rise manifolds.
blower at three percent under, stock 460 crank and rods, trw pistons.
berk pump with a b imp, loader and shoe with ride plate.
Boat runs 75 mph at 5000 rpm, last year at three over it ran 78 at 5200.
[ August 01, 2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[LakesOnly]

Danhercules:
I have been doing a lot of searching on this site. Damn, you have a ton of info an knowledge.
I would be sooooooooo happy with 79MPH.
I dont need to go over 5500. 5400 would be fine. How much HP are you running?About 580 HP
What motor specs are you running?460 +.030" with about 10.5:1 compression. 2x4 Tunnel ram.
What heads are you running??D3VE heads.
What impeller and pump work do you have??Just a stock rebuilt Dominator with "A" impeller, snoot and diverter.
I want to keep my intake and carbs the same. The 2x4 750's on the tunnel ram would be fine, once jetted for your motor build.
I was planning on going to a roller cam, and roller-tip rockers and rebuilding my pump this winter. Based on the above photos, a valve train upgrade would be essential for you aspirations. The cam choice and pump work require further investigations before jumping into anything.
If 550HP can get me 75 to 80, and I can do it for cheep, I will be soooooo happy. Who said anything about cheap? The horsepower curve relative to desired speed is exponential. I suspect you'll need to address details about motor, pump and hull to get 75+, but 70 is attainable without a tremndous amount of effort with your boat and its powerplant.
I hope I did not offend you in the email I sent you. I saw you name all over the place with some crazy knowledge. Thanks. Not even offended...you're welcome.
Now, let's make that Southwind fly.
LO

[LakesOnly]

Blown 472:
...stock 460 crank and rods.... Wow, Blown, how much HP do you gather those OEM rods are handling and which rods specifically? That's quite a testament to the stock Ford rods...I suspect you have quality bolts in 'em.
berk pump with a b imp, loader and shoe with ride plate.Ahh, here's where your getting you top speed numbers from...I gotta freakin' do me a shoe and ride plate. Definitely my next upgrade.
LO

[HOSS]

And don`t waste your money on roller tip rockers. They have the same friction as a stock stamped rocker. All the friction is in the fulcrum and not the tip. wink

[058]

LakesOnly:
Blown 472:
...stock 460 crank and rods.... Wow, Blown, how much HP do you gather those OEM rods are handling and which rods specifically? That's quite a testament to the stock Ford rods...I suspect you have quality bolts in 'em.
berk pump with a b imp, loader and shoe with ride plate.Ahh, here's where your getting you top speed numbers from...I gotta freakin' do me a shoe and ride plate. Definitely my next upgrade.
LO L.O. I ran stock prepped CJ/truck rods, cast crank and 2 bolt mains with my turbocharged 460. Although I kept it under 6800rpms and 12lbs of boost I never had any lower end problems. Burnt a few pistons but never a basement problem.

[LakesOnly]

058:
LakesOnly:
Blown 472:
...stock 460 crank and rods.... Wow, Blown, how much HP do you gather those OEM rods are handling and which rods specifically? That's quite a testament to the stock Ford rods...I suspect you have quality bolts in 'em.
LO L.O. I ran stock prepped CJ/truck rods, cast crank and 2 bolt mains with my turbocharged 460...kept it under 6800rpms and 12lbs of boost I never had any lower end problems. More testament to the stock Ford rods! I believe Chevy guys would be insisting on their 7/16"-bolt rods for these figures.
LO

[Dennis Moore]

Danhercules,
I have a new Comp Cam that I had custom ground for a 460 with tunnel ram and two four barrels. Still in the box, never used. Give me a call. 626-357-3573
Dennis Moore
Moore Performance

[Danhercules]

Dennis Moore:
Danhercules,
I have a new Comp Cam that I had custom ground for a 460 with tunnel ram and two four barrels. Still in the box, never used. Give me a call. 626-357-3573
Dennis Moore
Moore Performance Check you PM's. Thanks

[Blown 472]

LakesOnly:
Blown 472:
...stock 460 crank and rods.... Wow, Blown, how much HP do you gather those OEM rods are handling and which rods specifically? That's quite a testament to the stock Ford rods...I suspect you have quality bolts in 'em.
berk pump with a b imp, loader and shoe with ride plate.Ahh, here's where your getting you top speed numbers from...I gotta freakin' do me a shoe and ride plate. Definitely my next upgrade.
LO cj or truck rods, football rod bolts, arps, and arp studs in the block for the mains.

[Blown 472]

HOSS:
And don`t waste your money on roller tip rockers. They have the same friction as a stock stamped rocker. All the friction is in the fulcrum and not the tip. wink Maybe those comp cams chev junk, the ones on my motor have roller tip and needle bearings in the fulcrum. I am running crowers and have never had a problem with them in 6 years that I have owned them.

[roostwear]

Here's the next purchase for my 460.
http://store.summitracing.com/productdetail.asp?p=410
I run stock rockers on a pretty mild 460 with D3VE heads and am not looking to go full bore on this engine. For $180, I'll take a chance.

[LakesOnly]

Blown 472:
LakesOnly:
Blown 472:
...stock 460 crank and rods.... Wow, Blown, how much HP do you gather those OEM rods are handling and which rods specifically? That's quite a testament to the stock Ford rods...I suspect you have quality bolts in 'em.
LO cj or truck rods, football rod bolts, arps, and arp studs in the block for the mains. Those rods seem to be the way to go, especially if your running a blower on 'em and 058 puts a turbo on 'em without any problems.
As usual, I went overkill with the H-beams....you guys have a lighter rotating assembly...
I like to overbuild for reliability reasons, but it now appears that the truck/cj rods would have been acceptable for my application.
Good to know,
LO

[Blown 472]

And the best part is you can buy them brand new from ford.

[HOSS]

UUUUmmmm Blown, that is a roller rocker you described. Not a roller tip rocker. :cool:

[HOSS]

I am running drop in roller fulcrums from Crane on my 460. They utilize the stock stamped rocker. I have Dove heads with stock rockers.

[matt1]

Hey hoss is that your boat I saw in the news on wheels.

[beached 1]

A lot of good info in here. I am also running a 460 in my Spectra. Well, it was running. I like to over build my bottom end much like LO's advice. Nevertheless, I had a failure where I would have least expected it. My Scat H beams, or one of them anyway, took a big shit. Thsi leads me to my ? Which is stronger? I would have thought that H beams were, but just about everyone I have talked to say either "Oh shit! Don't ever use Scat." Or "H beams, there's your problem". H beams appear to have more material in them so if they aren't any stonger than I beams, or any stronger than a stock rod, then what's the point? My rod failed at 3500 rpms. I wasn't into it at all. The motor had about 6 hrs on it. I had good Oil pressure, engine temp was at 165/170.
Anyway, I just picked up a set of Cryogenically (spelling) treated forged I beams. Hope they hold out a little better :(.
My setup:
.30 over-stock stroke
Ported D0VE's with Crower full rollers and chevy studs & 3/8 push rods
flat top JE's
Was Scat H beams- Now Eagle I beams
Stock crank 10/10 and champhered
MSD ign
Was Wieand Stealth- Now Offy mid rise single plane
Demon 750 DP w/ phenolic spacer
Crower flat tappet prt # 22244 .588 lift 311 duration (intake) and .604 w/ 316 duration exh. 112 lobe seperation. @.050
429 full roller timing chain set
Crank, rods, pistons, harm balancer and flex plte balanced by Dougans
Lightning headers
I'm hoping to bw in the 525 HP range at 5500. What do you guys think?
Here's some shots of the damage mentioned above.
http://beached1.homestead.com/files/****_.JPG
http://beached1.homestead.com/files/****__.JPG
http://beached1.homestead.com/files/****___.JPG
Here's what looks like in the boat. :(
http://beached1.homestead.com/files/4602.jpg

[LakesOnly]

beached 1:
I am also running a 460 in my Spectra. Well, it was running. My Scat H beams, or one of them anyway, took a big shit. This leads me to my ? Which is stronger? I would have thought that H beams were, but just about everyone I have talked to say either "Oh shit! Don't ever use Scat." Or "H beams, there's your problem". H beams appear to have more material in them so if they aren't any stonger than I beams, or any stronger than a stock rod, then what's the point? My rod failed at 3500 rpms. I wasn't into it at all. The motor had about 6 hrs on it. I had good Oil pressure, engine temp was at 165/170.
Anyway, I just picked up a set of Cryogenically (spelling) treated forged I beams. Hope they hold out a little better :( .
My setup:
.30 over-stock stroke
Ported D0VE's with Crower full rollers and chevy studs & 3/8 push rods
flat top JE's
Was Scat H beams- Now Eagle I beams
Stock crank 10/10 and champhered
MSD ign
Was Wieand Stealth- Now Offy mid rise single plane
Demon 750 DP w/ phenolic spacer
Crower flat tappet prt # 22244 .588 lift 311 duration (intake) and .604 w/ 316 duration exh. 112 lobe seperation. @.050
429 full roller timing chain set
Crank, rods, pistons, harm balancer and flex plte balanced by Dougans
Lightning headers
I'm hoping to bw in the 525 HP range at 5500. What do you guys think?
Dude, that really sucks about your motor! Looking at where the rod broke, it looks like a fluke to me.
I'm sure others will jump on the anti-SCAT made-in-China bandwagon with this one.
I know people that build Ford 557 strokers with SCAT/Eagle rods. Now, those cranks really swing those rods around. And the rods hold up.
I have to admit that if someone said there was a slim chance that this could happen with the H-beam rod, I'd think twice. But isn't it true that this could just as likely happen with any rod?
Any signs of clearance issues? Is there any signs of blueing from overheating of the crank journal? (Or the rod big end?) Did you plastigage at assy? How's the
My motor has Californa Auto Transpeed (CAT) rods. (Made in China.) CAT claims that they are good to 800 HP with the bolts I used. My motor has about 8 hours now with no problems. This includes 25 to 30-second bursts at a sustained 5400 r.p.m. Hope all's well. :confused:
Reviewing your new build, I think 525 HP is possible with good tuning effort. The 750 Demon is a good carb; still, your engine could handle more carburetion.
LO
[ August 04, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: LakesOnly ]

[beached 1]

Thanks, I was hoping you would reply. :)
LakesOnly
Dude, that really sucks about your motor! Looking at where the rod broke, it looks like a fluke to me.
I'm sure others will jump on the anti-SCAT made-in-China bandwagon with this one.
Yes, I get this all the time now when I explain my failure.
Any signs of clearance issues? Is there any signs of blueing from overheating of the crank journal? (Or the rod big end?) Did you plastigage at assy? How's the
The only thing that has any blueing is the rod that failed. But upon inspecting it further, it has cracks all around it. So I assume (beacuse none of the other 7 are blue) that this gave enough to tear up the bearing just prior to coming apart. I did hear this. I was at 3500 when it started to sound rough and something sounded loose. Just before I could shut it down.....Boom!
Scat told me that I seized the piston. Well, I've stuck many 2 strokes in the past and never have I had one that didn't score the cyl walls or piston. This hole has nothing but hone markings! If it was an oiling problem (Another theroy of Scats) then why is there only 1 blue f'd up rod? The rod next to it shows a little on the side of it's neighbor for obvious reasons. The other 7 look as brand new as they where going in.
My motor has Californa Auto Transpeed (CAT) rods. (Made in China.) CAT claims that they are good to 800 HP with the bolts I used. My motor has about 8 hours now with no problems. This includes 25 to 30-second bursts at a sustained 5400 r.p.m. Hope all's well. :confused:
I almost went with them, but they were back ordered and couldn't get them too me as soon as Eagle could. Without spending 1200+ bucks it seems that the Asians are the only way to go. :(
Reviewing your new build, I think 525 HP is possible with good tuning effort. The 750 Demon is a good carb; still, your engine could handle more carburetion.
LO I agree. I am thinking on stepping up to a Demon 850. It's all about the Benjamins.
Thanks for all your advice LO. Much appreciated. :)
[ August 05, 2003, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: beached 1 ]

[Blown 472]

Why not a well preped stock rod? Dont get me wrong a truck pull motor that is pulling some big rpm I would use an aftermarket rod but a jet boat?? I have never heard of a stock rod failure in a pump boat.
I lost a rod brg do to oiling and it was just one, the one next to it was fine, do you have the motor back together yet?? if not you should modify the last two main brg upppers to match the feed hole in the block, and the first main upper to match the feed hole that supplys oil to the cam gear and chain. Double check all your clearances too.
And put a slight countersink in the block were the oil pump bolts to it and make sure the galley plug in the front of the block that comes from pump to the feed line is not too far in as this will shut off some flow too.
[ August 05, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[Dennis Moore]

I am not being a jerk here, but I must ask you guys something. What are the advantages in running a Ford engine? I know the most common answers, "they are different","why not?" and "they aren't a Chevy!"
Really, I have lots of logical reasons for building a Chevy engine but I have never found a Ford guy that could give me a logical reason for building a Ford. Again, I am not trying to be a jerk. I don't want to offend anyone, but I would just like to know.
Maybe I could write a magazine article about it!
Sincerely
Dennis Moore

[Blown 472]

Dennis Moore:
I am not being a jerk here, but I must ask you guys something. What are the advantages in running a Ford engine? I know the most common answers, "they are different","why not?" and "they aren't a Chevy!"
Really, I have lots of logical reasons for building a Chevy engine but I have never found a Ford guy that could give me a logical reason for building a Ford. Again, I am not trying to be a jerk. I don't want to offend anyone, but I would just like to know.
Maybe I could write a magazine article about it!
Sincerely
Dennis Moore Well my point of view, first off if the boat came with one why change??
secondly, why would I want to pay 5 to 600 for a core that has junk heads when I can pick up a running 460 with good heads for 200$
Bigger bore, tad shorter stroke than a chev, and parts story that chevs are cheaper to build is crap, if you start with the core then go buy a set of good heads how are you ahead.

[LakesOnly]

Beached,
It seems I clipped part of my response above (at the end where I was asking about clearances, etc.). Blown472 is right, you should be looking at your oil galleries. The rod big ends ultimatley all receive oil from separate branches off the main gallery along the cam. Blow 'em out with compressed air, etc.
LO

[LakesOnly]

Dennis Moore:
...What are the advantages in running a Ford engine?
Really, I have lots of logical reasons for building a Chevy engine but I have never found a Ford guy that could give me a logical reason for building a Ford...Sincerely
Dennis Moore Dennis, I am no more a Ford guy than a Chevy or this or that or whatever. I like good engineereing designs no matter who the manufacturer. I do love most MoPar engines...I've built more Datsun engines than anything (including one blindfolded--still running).
You will not see me getting into heated arguements over who made the better engine, Ford or Chevy. They both are good; so are some other makes.
I spent nine long months looking for an immaculate hull. Frankly, I didn't care whether it had a Ford or Chevy in it; the motor simply had to be cherry as well.
Objectively, a bit of what I have learned is that an insane amount of aftermarket performance parts are available for Chevys....way more than Fords.
And nice motors can be built with Fords too, and in some cases, the stock parts are plenty strong--and plentiful--for making a high performance motor where aftermarkt parts aren't available. For example:
~~Look earlier in this thread where Blown472 and 058 are using blowers and turbos on stock rods.
~~The stock crankshaft main journals are 2.500 where the Chevy's are 2.200. So stock Fords can be offset ground/turned down to the lesser rod journal dia and utilze the various rods (Ford, Chevy or Mopar) so that a stroker can be built with stock parts, and relatively cheaply. When your 492 stroker crank (2.375 Mopar rod) eventually needs to be turned, you can regrind to a 514 stroker (2.200 Chevy rod).
~~They have the same canted valve design as the Chevy (even use the same Crane Roller roller rocker p/n's), and the 429/460's are dime-a-dozen everywhere for dirt cheap. And I mean dirt cheap.
I just woke up and really can't think too clearly right now...anybody care to add to this? And let's not turn this into a heated deal.....this thread is to help a coulple of guys with motor questions...
LO

[Blown 472]

I think alot of the chevy thing is myth, all the mags always said fords are junk so everyone goes with chevs.
Lakes has some great points, the fords dont flow as well on the exhaust side as the chevy but for some coin you can get blue thunder with a chevy exhaust port.
There are some oiling issues but easily fixxed.
Put together a 30 over 460 with a street roller, nice set of ported dove's with trw pistons. 10 something to 1 motor with a single four and have tons of torque for not alot of money.
The ford block is finished a little nicer than the chev, the head bolts are counter bbred so if you deck the block you dont have to counter sink the holes all ready done.
[ August 05, 2003, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[Blown 472]

Hey lakes, what is the dealio on the mopar rod on the ford crank, got any comp heights?? piston part numbers?? I am liking it as I have a bunch of mopar rods laying around.

[spectras only]

Dennis , what's wrong with this engine wink http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/ford460jpeg.jpg ? Oh well ,it's a Ford :D J/K . Built it 6 years ago for the 19 spectra that sunk last year during a storm eek! . Still running today.BTW , it only cost 1200 cdn in new parts and this engine has the the stock [ cheap ] rods, spinning 5600 RPM on a "A" impeller. The 429 BBF I had in my 20 spectra jet was rebuilt over 13 years ago and my buddy who bought it last year just repleced one head, due to a hairline crack between the in/exh valve leaning the mixture in one cylinder.Now , my LS-6 in the 24 spectra is a sweet engine , however it only has 500 original hours on it wink .If I was ambitious enough ,wouldn't mind to drop a new crate 426 hemi [had a few mopars in the past wink ] in a project boat :D .

[beached 1]

I'm like LO in this Ford vs Chevy thing. While I'm partial to Chevy's mainly because it seems a hole lot easier to find aftermarket parts (especially in the boating world), I think a Ford can't be all that bad. I also agree that finding a good block, crank and heads cheap is true. After tossing the rod, I found another D1VE block (stock bore) and stock crank for 225 bucks. My D0VE heads came from 77Charger for a case of Sierra Nevadas :) .
Eventually, I would like to build a monster stroker out of the one I just grenaded and then have it just sitting on stand by for when this time comes again.....and it will.
I really tried to find a Spectra as clean as the one I bought with a Chevy in it, but didn't have any luck.

[Blown 472]

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/19MVC-012F-med.jpg

[HOSS]

No it was not MATT1.

[058]

If we all ran Chevys then all we would have is just another "butthole" engine....everyone has one. :D

[058]

Dennis Moore:
I am not being a jerk here, but I must ask you guys something. What are the advantages in running a Ford engine? I know the most common answers, "they are different","why not?" and "they aren't a Chevy!"
Really, I have lots of logical reasons for building a Chevy engine but I have never found a Ford guy that could give me a logical reason for building a Ford. Again, I am not trying to be a jerk. I don't want to offend anyone, but I would just like to know.
Maybe I could write a magazine article about it!
Sincerely
Dennis Moore Now for a serious answer to your question, Why do some of us run Fords instead of Chevys? My reasons are numerous, Personally I think Ford engines are better, We don't have to search hi and low for a tall deck block, all Fords are "tall" deck [10.300+"] Inspite of a so-called bad exhaust port the heads have symeterical[sp] ports for better fuel distribution. The Ford cast crank and 2 bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC. BBFs can run bigger cams as it is located higher in the block than the BBC, While on the subject of cams BBFs have bigger diameter lifters for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams. BBFs can make good compresson ratios with flat top pistons [chamber CCs range 72cc to 96cc] We don't need huge dome pistons to get a 10.5 to 1 C/R. BBFs stock rods are 6.605 and with the 3.85 stroke that gives us a 1.71 R/R ....shall I go on?

[LakesOnly]

058:
Now for a serious answer to your question, Why do some of us run Fords instead of Chevys? My reasons are numerous, Personally I think Ford engines are better, We don't have to search hi and low for a tall deck block, all Fords are "tall" deck [10.300+"] Inspite of a so-called bad exhaust port the heads have symeterical[sp] ports for better fuel distribution. The Ford cast crank and 2 bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC. BBFs can run bigger cams as it is located higher in the block than the BBC, While on the subject of cams BBFs have bigger diameter lifters for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams. BBFs can make good compresson ratios with flat top pistons [chamber CCs range 72cc to 96cc] We don't need huge dome pistons to get a 10.5 to 1 C/R. BBFs stock rods are 6.605 and with the 3.85 stroke that gives us a 1.71 R/R ....shall I go on? Yeah, what he said....
LO

[Dennis Moore]

I like it! I am learning something here! Thanks for the responses, any others?
Sincerely
Dennis Moore

[058]

Lakes...What parts are available for Chevy that aren't for Ford? Granted, if you want to build a blown BBC the parts are a bit easier to obtain but if you really wanted to build a blown BBF the parts are there too, ya just have to look a little harder. Manifolds are available thru Blue Thunder for a true blower manifold. Heads?, Hell, where do I start? FMS[SCJ,A460,C460,E460, Hemi], TFS, EX514, Blue Thunder and a couple that aren't even on the market yet but will be soon. Where else can you make a 514-521-540" engine with stock parts and do it for under 3K for the short block? My 514 was done for under 3K including 4 bolt main conversion, 6.800" rods and JE pistons. Most people who run Fords that I've met do so because they want to run a Ford, and do not consider it a hindrence or a drawback...just different, thats all.

[LakesOnly]

058:
Lakes...What parts are available for Chevy that aren't for Ford? Hell, I dunno. Beats me...now that you mention it... :D
Point taken.
I have noticed that there's just so much Chevy stuff out there because it seems manufacturer's have been offering Chevy parts in greater numbers over the years.
But I suppose it is not as true today as, say, twenty five years ago. I know you've been into this a long, long time and so I'd think you could confirm that noticably greater numbers of available Ford stuff is happening in recent times.
You're right, there's lot's of aftermarket Ford stuff now that I think about it. Heh, heh.
Again, let's not forget the potential of the stock parts....
Cool,
LO
[ August 05, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: LakesOnly ]

[LakesOnly]

Blown 472:
Hey lakes, what is the dealio on the mopar rod on the ford crank, got any comp heights?? piston part numbers?? I am liking it as I have a bunch of mopar rods laying around. I first learned of this when I found the hole in my piston (damn pump gas!) and started looking for an interim motor while I rebuilt mine.
I came across a 492 stroker with CJ heads. 440 six-pack rods and Ross pistons. Still on the engine stand. I closed a deal for $3100 and he ships it to me from back east. I sent him the money, thinking I totally scored.
It's a little known set-up and usually discounted when considered because--hey--why turn a stock crank for a 492 when you can make a 514?
And that's actually a valid point...unless your a gearhead tripper like me and you like to try different and uncommon stuff that should work just fine.
Question: Is the cost of the offset grinding worth the few extra cubes of a 492?
Answer: Are you a gearhead tripper like me and you like to try different and uncommon stuff that should work just fine?
So...offset grinding a 460 crank for a 2.375 rod can make for a 3.975 stroke. Add a 4.44 bore, and voila! 492 cubes. And yes, the there is plenty of material in that crank for a bigger stroker down the road.
The mopar 440 rod is 6.76" (and the pin can be gotten in a .990 or a 1.094, with he aftermarket stuff available).
I think the Ross pistons in the engine I bought were custom...I never evaluated compression height.
A week after the guy told me he received my money for the 492, I got an email from him saying that as he was placing the motor on a shipping pallet, the chain on the engine hoist broke and the engine hit the pick-up tailgate and tumbled to the ground. He sent my money back. I asked for pictures but never saw any. Hmmmmmm....Nor have I ever known a chain to break while hoisting an engine...
He originally saw a small write-up about it in a Super Ford magazine. I think he may have scanned it and sent it to me early on, but if I have it, it's in my--yep, you guessed it--crashed hard-drive.
LO

[058]

Another little tidbit of Ford info. Most early blocks can be bored to 4.520" if sonic checked for core shift and overall wall thickness. Drop in a 4.500" stroke crank and it makes a 572" engine for just under $3K...can ya do that with a stock block Chevy?

[kp216]

058
[/QB]The Ford cast crank and 2 bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC.[/QB]Amen there. When I built a 351 Cleveland to use in my 4 WD pulling truck, I was running a stock 2 bolt block, stock nodular crank and stock rods that I polished, shot peened and put ARP rod bolts in. When I hooked to the sled and came out of the hole, I was turning 8000rpm. It lived for two years in my truck until I finally sold it to a circle track racer.

[LakesOnly]

058:
Another little tidbit of Ford info. Most early blocks can be bored to 4.520" if sonic checked for core shift and overall wall thickness. Drop in a 4.500" stroke crank and it makes a 572" engine for just under $3K...can ya do that with a stock block Chevy? Bam!
BEAT THAT!
(Oops, am I getting passionalte over the Ford vs. Chevy thing when I said I wouldn't?) wink
LO

[spectras only]

Guys ,stop all this ford talk wink . I'm ready to order the new GT 40 to teach those Z0-6 guys a lesson :p J/K BTW , Pebble beach show is coming up on the 15th.My friend will show his 1929 Austin7 s/c racer ,750cc [only 6 in the word exist today].I hope to be there myself.
[ August 06, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: spectras only ]

[058]

I have a question for Dennis Moore. What are the advantages of running a Chevy? Why do people choose Chevys over other makes? I know all about cost of parts and the old wive's tales of Chevy parts being cheaper [some are and some aren't] Parts being plentiful, yep, they are, especially used parts. Ford guys usually don't sell their good parts. From an engineering point of view what are the advantages of the Chevy over the others, not just Fords.
[ August 06, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: 058 ]

[Blown 472]

I can think of one, pulling the dist to change intakes.

[spectras only]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blown 472:
[QB] I can think of one, pulling the dist to change intakes. Hey blown pulling the distributor on a ford is less of a hassle than pulling the oilpan for a timingchain replacement for a chevy wink :p

[beached 1]

I have a ? What's with the lifters on a BBC? Why aren't they on top an center of the cam lobes (like a ford) wouldn't this make it easier for the cam to go flat? Or am I missin something?
[ August 06, 2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: beached 1 ]

[LakesOnly]

058:
I have a question for Dennis Moore. What are the advantages of running a Chevy? Why do people choose Chevys over other makes? I know all about cost of parts and the old wive's tales of Chevy parts being cheaper [some are and some aren't] Parts being plentiful, yep, they are, especially used parts. Ford guys usually don't sell their good parts. From an engineering point of view what are the advantages of the Chevy over the others, not just Fords. Yeah...what 058 said!
(Oops, am I once again getting passionate over the Ford vs. Chevy thing when I said I wouldn't? Tee-hee!)
LO
:D
[ August 06, 2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: LakesOnly ]

[058]

beached 1:
I have a ? What's with the lifters on a BBC? Why aren't they on top an center of the cam lobes (like a ford) wouldn't this make it easier for the cam to go flat? Or am I missin something? Lifter bores are offset to promote lifter rotation as the cam turns. All engines have some lifter offset for this reason, some just look more offset than others. This offset is for flat tappet cams only. Roller cams should ride directly on the lobe. With the lifter offset, cam lobe slope and the radius machined into the face of the lifter all has to do with keeping the lifter rotating.

[spectras only]

beached1 , the chevy lifters are slightly convex and off center to promote rotation in the bore.

[Dennis Moore]

058
For starters I would say the most obvious difference is the location of the distributor. It is in the front of the Ford engine. The distributor runs the oil pump meaning that the oil pump is in the front of the engine. When the boat accelerates all of the oil runs to the back of the pan away from the oil pump. The oil sump is in the front of the pan on most Fords. A rear sump pan means that a long oil pump pickup tube needs to pull the oil to the front of the engine. Not very smart if you ask me!
The oil pump on a Chevy sits in the oil sump at the rear of the engine. It is submerged in oil and is self priming every time the engine is started.
With a Ford, the oil pump is not sitting in the oil and it must prime itself by pulling oil from the rear of the pan every time you start the engine.
Spacing the intake ports equally across the cylinder heads is not a good idea, in fact Ford is the only one that did it. The ports don't flow any better and the design of the intake manifold suffers considerably. Placing a four barrel in the middle of a V8 with evenly spaced ports means that the four center ports have extremely short runners leading to the carburetor and the four outside ports have long runners leading to the carburetor. To even out the length of the runners with a Ford dual plane manifold requires extreme turns in the four short runners. Compare any Chevy dual plane with any Ford dual plane manifold and it is easy to see that the Chevy manifold flows better. Intake manifold efficiency is why nobody else equally spaced the intake ports.
The new Chevy V8 engines have evenly spaced intake ports like a Ford but remember that they have dry intake manifolds with individual injectors at the ports. The new EFI engines don't need equal length runners for good fuel distribution.
Sincerely
Dennis Moore

[1riverrat]

Dennis why does Dart use Symmetrical ports on their big chief heads and Robert Yates on there ford heads if it does not work good? Don't you think they would have changed that?
The oil pump sits in the rear in a jet boat when using a chevy but what about when its in a v-drive it is now in the front?
Not trying to stir shit just curious.
[ August 06, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: 1riverrat ]

[LakesOnly]

Ladi-i-i-i-i-i-i-es and Gentleme-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-n:
Le-e-e-e-e-e-et's ge-e-e-e-e-e-e-t readyy-y-y-y-y-y to-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o RUMBL-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-LE!
:D :D :D
LO

[Blown 472]

Dennis Moore:
058
Spacing the intake ports equally across the cylinder heads is not a good idea, in fact Ford is the only one that did it. The ports don't flow any better and the design of the intake manifold suffers considerably. Placing a four barrel in the middle of a V8 with evenly spaced ports means that the four center ports have extremely short runners leading to the carburetor and the four outside ports have long runners leading to the carburetor. To even out the length of the runners with a Ford dual plane manifold requires extreme turns in the four short runners. Compare any Chevy dual plane with any Ford dual plane manifold and it is easy to see that the Chevy manifold flows better. Intake manifold efficiency is why nobody else equally spaced the intake ports.
The new Chevy V8 engines have evenly spaced intake ports like a Ford but remember that they have dry intake manifolds with individual injectors at the ports. The new EFI engines don't need equal length runners for good fuel distribution.
Sincerely
Dennis Moore Could you please splain the new nascar sb2, you know the carbed one that the ports are evenly spaced??

[Dennis Moore]

The SB2 is a race engine that uses a single plane intake manifold and is built to run at very high rpm. Equal fuel distribution at low engine speeds is not a consideration for this engine. If you look at the short and long runners on the SB2 or Ford racing manifolds it becomes pretty obvious.
Would you run an intake manifold with short and long runners on any engine that is primarily designed for low speed torque and even fuel distribution (such as a passenger car or boat that runs at 5,000 rpm or less)? I would hope not, most people wouldn't even consider running a 2X4 tunnel ram (with equal length runners)on such an engine.
Look at the single plain manifolds designed for equally spaced cylinder heads and be objective. Do they look like the correct set up for any non racing engine? Most knowledgeable people would say absolutely not!
Sincerely
Dennis Moore

[Blown 472]

could you then splain this?? web page (http://www.dartheads.com/manifoldsbb.html)
and what are these heads doing on a chevy??? http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Aug/2003856224485376436104.jpg
[ August 07, 2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[Blown 472]

http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/flyers/slices/632CUINBIGDUKE.gif

[LakesOnly]

Mr. Moore,
Your original inquiry was, "...What are the advantages in running a Ford engine?
Really, I have lots of logical reasons for building a Chevy engine...."
Let me be the first to point out that I stated to you that I am no more a Ford guy than Chevy or whatever, etc. and that I wouldn't get into the heated arguement stuff. Well, I confess this is going to change.
And you have heard numerous reasons in favor of Ford. You also stated, "I like it! I am learning something here...."
Frankly, so am I. But it seems I am learning a great deal more favorable things about Ford than I am Chevrolet. And this tends to influence me to jump into the rivalry--on the Ford bandwagon.
I repeat, your original statement included "...I have lots of logical reasons for building a Chevy engine...."
Really?
First, those stating facts about Ford:
~~...using blowers and turbos on stock rods.
~~large cube stroker cranks from stock cranks...
~~They have the same canted valve design as the Chevy (even use the same Crane Roller roller rocker p/n's), and the 429/460's are dime-a-dozen everywhere for dirt cheap. And I mean dirt cheap.
~~We don't have to search hi and low for a tall deck block, all Fords are "tall" deck [10.300+"]
~~...symeterical[sp] ports for better fuel distribution.
~~The Ford cast crank and 2-bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC.
~~BBFs can run bigger cams as it is located higher in the block than the BBC...
~~BBFs have bigger diameter lifters for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams...
~~BBFs can make good compresson ratios with flat top pistons [chamber CCs range 72cc to 96cc] We don't need huge dome pistons to get a 10.5 to 1 C/R..
~~BBFs (have a) a 1.71 rod ratio...
~~(BBF's) make a 514-521-540" engine with stock parts and do it for under 3K...
~~...blocks can be bored to 4.520"...put in a 4.500" stroke crank and it makes a 572" engine for just under $3K...can ya do that with a stock block Chevy...
And those in stating facts about Chevy:
~~the oil pump is in the (opposite end of) the engine. sleeping
~~"(Ford's) Spacing the intake ports equally across the cylinder heads is not a good idea..." sleeping (By the way Dennis, I run a tunnel ram and so this simply doesn't apply).
That's all you got??? Chevy's oil pump is here and Fords is there?????
sleeping sleeping sleeping
Thanks for enlightening me as to which engine I would be most well advised to run.
I am converted!
LO
[ August 07, 2003, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: LakesOnly ]

[058]

Mr. Moore, Is that all you got? Dist. location and a questionable debate over port location and design? Pretty weak if you ask me. If it were true about the siamesed port of the BBC [that are unequal length BTW and leads to tuning problems of its own] The symeterical port head is what seems to work since anything with flow numbers over about 340-350cfm are of the symetrical port design. You also cited the SB2 head as a high rpm superspeedway piece. I should point out that those heads are also used on road course engines where the rpm range varys from under 4Krpm to almost 9Krpm. And they look alot like the Yates heads commonly found on Ford powered Cup cars coincedince? No, just a better design that works and the Yates heads are alot closer to the 351C they replaced, the SB2 heads doesn't even remotely look like the typical small block Chevy heads found on 305s and 350s. Please don't get me wrong, I have a great respect for the Chevy but when something comes along that may threaten the supremecy of the Chevy you Chevy guys get all testy and bristle and grouse about the gall of another Mfg. that dares to tread on the sacred soil the Chevy inhabits.
[ August 07, 2003, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: 058 ]

[Dennis Moore]

The SB2 head is not like the Ford head. The Ford heads have all of the intake ports facing the same way. On one side of the engine the ports face towards the front and on the other side the ports face towards the rear. The SB2 has mirror ports. The front four intake ports on the engine face towards the center of the engine (the carburetor) and the rear four ports face towards the center of the engine. All of the intake ports are directed towards the carburetor unlike a Ford were half of the ports face away from the carburetor. Big difference!
Sincerely
Dennis Moore

[058]

I am familer with the mirror port design and yes they do differ from the Yates head in this respect. I was referring to the valve inclination and placement as being very close in design to the Yates. I ask you, how close of a design is the SB2 to the standard SBC head? To me it looks closer to the Yates/351C than the SBC.

[Dennis Moore]

Who exactly copied who here? The 351c and 429 just might have copied the BB Chevy as far as splayed valves is concerned, wouldn't you agree?
Cleveland heads on a Windsor block with a Cleveland crankshaft and bearings? Which deck height? Cleveland or Windsor? Clevor?
That is a really stock set up!
Dennis Moore

[beached 1]

spectras only:
beached1 , the chevy lifters are slightly convex and off center to promote rotation in the bore. If you don't mind another bone headed ? from a rookie like me...
how does a BBF accomplish this task?
just curious.

[spectras only]

Beached1 , camshafts have taper ground on the lobes that promotes rotation.

[1riverrat]

Lets get this thread back on track and help Dan out on his motor.
I would keep your heads and clean up the intake ports but do not make them any bigger and get rid of all the humps and bumps out of the exhaust ports. This should be stuff you could do at home for cheap. Then when the bottom end needed rebuilt I would go with a stroker kit and then you won’t need to turn so many rpm’s to make the heads work good. Here is a build with some CJ heads that made 800 h.p. at 6250 rpm’s but the compression may be more than you would want but it would still make good power with lower compression. Just my .02. Here is the thread with some specs on the build. motor build (http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=85220&messageid=1047482205)

[058]

Dennis Moore:
Who exactly copied who here? The 351c and 429 just might have copied the BB Chevy as far as splayed valves is concerned, wouldn't you agree?
Cleveland heads on a Windsor block with a Cleveland crankshaft and bearings? Which deck height? Cleveland or Windsor? Clevor?
That is a really stock set up!
Dennis Moore AHHHHH...Its good to have choices. Build 'em anyway you want. As for stock, is anything in NASCAR stock? If you wish to split hairs there is more "Ford" in Jeffy Gordon's Chevy than Chevy when you look: the transmisson, they use Jerico or Libertys, both spin-offs of the Ford Toploader trans. The rear ends? Ford 9"...what else? The front suspension is a direct design copy of the 1965 Ford Galaxie front end. So the only thing that is Chevy on a Chevy is the sheet metal and the engine. And if you really want to know who copys who on the cylinder head with the "poly angle" design you will need to go back to the mid 50s on the Dodge/Plymouth 318 engine, they were the first of the "Modern" V-8 engines to incorporate splayed valve heads. BTW, I get a big kick out of the "new" Chevy engines with the Y block design and the cross bolted mains. Starting to look more and more like a Ford engine. :D

[LakesOnly]

1riverrat:
Lets...help Dan out on his motor.
I would keep your heads and clean up the intake ports but do not make them any bigger, and get rid of all the humps and bumps out of the exhaust ports. Then when the bottom end needed rebuilt I would go with a stroker kit and then you won't need to turn so many rpm's to make the heads work good. Here is a build with some CJ heads that made 800 h.p. at 6250 rpm's but the compression may be more than you would want...Riverrat, you nin-cum-poop!!! If you you don't know what to grind in these heads, you can easily HURT flow and PERFORMANCE. Sometimes, the "bumps" in the exhaust ports can be re-shaped to help flow.
The actual amount of stroke (stroker) to make these heads become even remotely benficial from 3000-6000 rpm would leave Mr. Hercules with a compression ratio so damn high that he would need to run pure 114 race gas exclusively.
LO

[LakesOnly]

Look at this, Dennis:
It's a stock, dime-a-dozen D1VE 460 block .030" over, a stock stroke 460 crank .010" under, and D3VE (lowest compression passenger car) heads. And some bolt-ons like any other ***boat:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/350New_Motor_Overhead-med.jpg
580 Horsepower@5400 with 10.5:1 pistons and a middle-of-the-road hyd camshaft. It pushes my boat to 80 mph without shoe or ride plate.
LO
[ August 07, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: LakesOnly ]

[1riverrat]

Lakes then what should he do to the exhaust posts as for as smoothing them out? Also I’m sure your aware that they make dish pistons so you can build a 557 at 10.5:1, 545 at 10.2:1, a 533 at 10:1, and a 521 at 9.8:1. I do not see running 114 octane in any one of these combos.

[LakesOnly]

1riverrat:
Lakes then what should he do to the exhaust posts as for as smoothing them out? Also I’m sure your aware that they make dish pistons so you can build a 557 at 10.5:1, 545 at 10.2:1, a 533 at 10:1, and a 521 at 9.8:1. I do not see running 114 octane in any one of these combos. Rat,
First, I aplogize for my intial smart-ass post here; it is now amended.
My point in my previous post (above) is that in order for those heads provide flow characteristics that would best benefit Hercules application (3000-6000 rpm), they would have to be bolted to damn near an 800 cubic inch engine. This would have a 6-inch stroke and compression would be exceedingly high with available pistons and/or overpriced custom ones. Not to mention that, depending on the condition of Dan's hull, it may rip itself drom his engine-length stringers.
Sure, the current engine will run as it is. It runs now. And it's a mis-match. Different heads will actually be advantageous for the build and his specific application.
We already covered this issue at the very beginning of this thread on page one.
LO
[ August 08, 2003, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: LakesOnly ]

[Danhercules]

LakesOnly:
Look at this, Dennis:
It's a stock, dime-a-dozen D1VE 460 block .030" over, a stock stroke 460 crank .010" under, and D3VE (lowest compression passenger car) heads. And some bolt-ons like any other ***boat:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/350New_Motor_Overhead-med.jpg
580 Horsepower@5400 with 10.5:1 pistons and a middle-of-the-road hyd camshaft. It pushes my boat to 80 mph without shoe or ride plate.
LO Is that your plant LO? Looks good. I would love to get that much HP out of mine. Would a tunnel intake help you more?
By the way, a little update, I am now spinning 5100 rpms. she's going up and up. The holeshot is worse now too. Later that weekend I sucked some mud to.
:mad: cry The pump is comming apart for sure. I am taking it real easy now, and until the end of the season untill I change the chain and do some motor mods.
Keep on bringing the info guys, you gearheads rock!!! :D