460 Ford Starter Issues... HELP!

[stashtrey]

So I now realize I need a new starter for my '77 Spectra 18' with 460 Ford Hardin motor.
I've come to realize there are two different types of starters for this engine... a top mount reverse rotating starter, or a standard rotating, bottom mount starter.
I believe my engine is the standard application... the starter is on the passenger side, below the exhaust log. Does this sound right? I see a spot on my bell housing that looks like you could put a starter there, it would actually face the rear of the engine and be directly on the top of the bellhousing, almost level with the intake manifold.
Here is my question... I just called an auto parts store here in Sacramento and the guy insisted that I need to buy a specific 'marine' starter that has a spark arrestor, and that there is no other way to do this. I understand the need for safety, but I have a full blower, I can open my hatch (which I always do when starting the motor), and I was told by a few people that I could replace this starter for around $200 brand new. I'm looking for a gear reduction starter.
The guy told me I'd be looking at around $350 for the special starter with the spark arrestor.
Do I really need this? Can someone point me in the right direction for a reasonable deal on a replacement for this?
Can you also verify that the location of the starter I described does indeed mean I have a standard rotating starter?

[stashtrey]

Also....
I'm really not sure this is the starter. I just turned the ignition and the starter engaged and turn for a second and then it stopped.
Can a starter be bad yet still attempt to turn the motor over?
I have a brand new battery. Good cables. The engine was running fine when this all started.

[DeputyDawg]

If you have an enclosed engine compartment stick with the marine sealed starter. Boats can become bombs very quickly and is just isn't worth it even with a good blower. What if you ran the blower for a few minutes to be sure you got rid of any fuel vapors and then you went to start the boat only to find out later when you come out of a coma with third degree burns over 70% of your body that the exhaust hose clamp had broken on one end of the blower hose and the hose fell off so you actually didn't ventilate anything. It's not worth it! If it is your starter you might be able to just have yours rebuilt. I hate to sound like a hard ass man, but did you do and check everything that was recommended you do in the other thread you started about this subject? I am thinking you didn't. If you don't know how to do all of those things then find a buddy or local mechanic to do it for you. Even if you have to pay someone it shouldn't cost very much. You have to check the other things first that we all told you could cause your problem, don't just through away a bunch of money on a starter if you don't need to. You may very well need a new starter, but you may very well not need one. Did you ever check and see if you had a good engine ground strap? Do you know what I am talking about when I say that? There are people here that will walk you throught this stuff but you have to listen to our suggestions. It is okay to ask questions if you don't know.

[stashtrey]

I've checked every scenario. I have a good ground. My cables are 1 guage, heavy duty cables.
I talked with the original owner and he assured me there were never any electrical problems or issues. The only conclusion I can make is that it is the starter.
I found a great site I'm sure you're aware of, cpperformance.com, and they are only a couple hours away from me, so I'm going to remove the starter and take it there and have them set me up with the appropriate starter replacement.
I totally appreciate the advice and I'm definitely concerned about safety... I have a wife and a son to worry about. I didn't mean to sound like I was looking for a cheap way out. cpperformance has them for around $260 from what I can tell.
Hopefully this will solve my problem and I can get back on the water. :)

[058]

Another alternative is to have your marine starter rebuilt by a competent rebuilding shop. When these starters go bad they can do all sorts of weird things from not working at all, dragging when hot, excessive current draw to work fine one minute to playing dead the next minute. FoMoCo starters are almost as bad as GM starters. :yuk:

[stashtrey]

I pulled the starter off the engine.... took some pic's.
Can anyone identify or tell me what kind of starter I should look to buy that will replace this one? It does say 'Ford' on the gear end of it.
http://www.hostimage.net/images/stashtrey/start4.jpg
http://www.hostimage.net/images/stashtrey/start3.jpg
http://www.hostimage.net/images/stashtrey/start2.jpg
http://www.hostimage.net/images/stashtrey/start1.jpg
Is this an OEM Ford Starter?
Also... here are some pics of the boat itself... just for the hell of it.
http://www.hostimage.net/images/stashtrey/spectra3.jpg
http://www.hostimage.net/images/stashtrey/spectra2.jpg
What do you think?

[Oldsquirt]

What do you think?
1.) Looks like a Ford starter. You should expect it to even if it is a "Marine" starter. I suspect however that someone went "cheap" and just stuck in a reman automotive unit.
2.) With a closed engine compartment use ONLY a "marine" starter. It's about spark suppression and not blowing your boat up.

[stashtrey]

Oldsquirt- You're in Norther Cal... any idea where I might be able to pick up a replacement around the Sacramento area? I know cpperformance sells Hardin marine starters... is that my best bet or do you know of any place close that I might be able to pick one up?
I definitely don't want to blow my boat up.

[Morg]

Call Carriage House Performance Marine. They are out of Penn Valley. Just below Grass Valley. Paul knows his shit. Lots of experience with these deals.
1-530-432-6812 ask for Paul.
MY rebuild would not have happened without his help. See the link below.
Morg

[stashtrey]

Okay... I bought a new replacement starter today through Kragen... it was a marine starter from a guy in town that deals with them. I'm not so sure how 'marinized' this thing was... apparently they use silicone to seal the thing.
Anyways... I installed the starter, turned the key and the engine turned over.... eventually starting up. I then shut the motor off, waited a second and then turned the key again.... nothing. It turned over for a second and then made some grinding noises and eventually just a click.
WTF??!!
I have checked my ground, it is solid. My battery cables are 1 guage and practically new. New battery. It was a brand new starter.
I had a friend come by who is a mechanical engineer and pretty handy.... we placed the old starter next to the new one and noticed that they were identical ecept for one thing.... the gear that pops out to turn the flywheel is definitely different. The new starter gear is shorter and the ridges appear to be lower than the original one. My friend thinks they aren't grooving with the flywheel properly which is causing it to bind up and in-turn not turn the motor over.
My real fear is that the motor is hydro locked or something internally is broken, causing the motor to be unable to turn over. However.... it fired up after I initially installed the new starter, and it ran all day on Friday perfectly.... temp was 160-170, oil pressure was excellent.... all the way until I got it on the trailer... .no problems.
I'm at a loss.... I would like to exchange the starter but I don't know what they would give me in exchange... the guy mentioned that the starter they gave me is the same as a Lincoln.... I just don't get it.
My only other option here is to take it to a boat mechanic but I'm not crazy about that because I'm afraid I'll be taken advantage of.... I really don't know much about this stuff.
:(

[stashtrey]

Also...I was incorrect in my original post/thread here... the motor is Harmon.. not Hardin. NOt sure if that makes a difference.

[stashtrey]

I took the thing back out with the intention of exchanging it or returning it. I don't have a digital voltmeter, unfortunately.
I've triple checked all the connections... I have the positive going directly to the starter, and the ground going to the bell housing, attached to the bolt that holds the starter....
I'm losing my mind.
My wife is getting PISSED. I tried to tell her that it wouldn't be that much money/time. ugh.

[Oldsquirt]

Motor brand should not matter.
If you suspect the motor is "hydro-locked", pull the spark plugs and try turning it over by hand using a wrench on the crank bolt. If water comes out of a cylinder....not good. If water doesn't come out, but you feel something mechanical hanging up.....also not good.
Is the starter currently installed and do you have a digital voltmeter to test with?

[stashtrey]

Should it be fairly easy to turn over with a wrench w/out the plugs in? I attempted this the other day but I didn't remove the plugs....
Also... it ran like a top on Friday... and it ran today for a few seconds.... if it was 'hydro locked'... wouldn't it have been unable to run today?

[Oldsquirt]

I suggest you call the guy that was recommended. It is sometimes much wiser to invest in professional help, than to drive yourself nuts and possibly spend far more money trying to fix it yourself.
The one circuit you haven't tested is the on that supplies the trigger to the starter. You would need a digital voltmeter, however.

[Oldsquirt]

Should it be fairly easy to turn over with a wrench w/out the plugs in? I attempted this the other day but I didn't remove the plugs....
Also... it ran like a top on Friday... and it ran today for a few seconds.... if it was 'hydro locked'... wouldn't it have been unable to run today?
The water could bleed past rings and into the oil while sitting for a few days.
With the plugs out you wont be working against the engine's compression so it will turn more easily. If there is water in a cylinder, you will see it get pushed out.

[stashtrey]

I think I'm going to take your advice and call Jory. You are right.... I'm driving myself nuts right now. It also wouldn't hurt to have him look over the whole motor and let me know if there is anything else I should be concerned about.
Hopefully this is a starter issue or electrical and not something with the motor being seized or a broken rod or whatever....
Thanks again for the help... I really appreciate your time.