new roller lifter design

[DogHouse]

Check out these trick new lifters:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/313lifter2-med.jpg
That #6 exhaust. Are they supposed to look like that after 10 hours of use? :( cry :(
Haven't found any evidence of any other problems internally, no oiling problems, no piston/valve contact, no obvious problems with the heads, valves, springs, rockers, or pushrods. Looks like the thing just broke. I still haven't pulled the short block out or the pan off yet so maybe something will become obvious when I do. Collateral damage includes the cam (of course) and the lifter bore in that shiny new Dart block.
Time to make some phone calls! argue
Well the summer was off to a good start...

[Blown 472]

Ouch, that sucks, whos lifter??

[DogHouse]

Isky "Red Zone", supposedly some of the toughest available that have pressure fed oiling and will put up with big springs for extended use. I know they were expensive! I'm really scratching my head wondering if something caused the failure or if there was just a bad heat treat on the roller, or a bad bearing, or what. I'm hoping to find some of the needles in the pan and inspect them for signs of heat stress (i.e. lack of oil).

[cjordan]

Crower has the best solid roller for the $$. Jesels are better for a lot more $$. I lost a comp lifter on the #6 exhaust last year. Didn't hurt anything, but a pain in the ass. It looked like the lifter was defective, very porous metal around the axle (which broke out). The rest of the lifters were perfect. Comp paid for the lifters and ruined cam anyway. Spring pressure and agressive ramps are lifter killers.
You might look at the Schubeck radius lifters, make more power with no moving parts. Basically a solid flat tappet lifter with a radius to run on a roller cam lobe. They make big power and work. You can also run a lot less spring since these lifters weigh half of a regular lifter.go to www.schubeckracing.com (http://www.schubeckracing.com)
[ May 12, 2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: cjordan ]

[Craig]

Damn Brian, that sucks. Maybe that's why we didn't see you at the lake yesterday frown

[DogHouse]

Yeah this is going to keep me off the lake for a while. The thing was running real nice too. Just my luck!
That Schubeck stuff looks very interesting. I will definitely talk to Larry about it when we do the machine work on the block. Maybe I should just go for one of their quad cam "904" motors... That would fix the lifter problem once and for all! :D

[Craig]

Damn Brian, that sucks. Maybe that's why we didn't see you at the lake yesterday frown

[GofastRacer]

DogHouse:
Check out these trick new lifters:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/313lifter2-med.jpg
That #6 exhaust. Are they supposed to look like that after 10 hours of use? :( cry :(
Haven't found any evidence of any other problems internally, no oiling problems, no piston/valve contact, no obvious problems with the heads, valves, springs, rockers, or pushrods. Looks like the thing just broke. I still haven't pulled the short block out or the pan off yet so maybe something will become obvious when I do. Collateral damage includes the cam (of course) and the lifter bore in that shiny new Dart block.
Time to make some phone calls! argue
Well the summer was off to a good start... Damn that sucks!. eek! I think I'll stay away from them "new trick lifters?.. :D :D

[Infomaniac]

Who put those in the engine?
*****I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED *****
Those new trick lifters come preserved. Cosmoline Grease. It has to be completely washed out before use. If not it blocks the oil to the needle bearings.
I cleaned mine in solvent and primed the rollers with Marvel Mystery Oil from an oil squirt can. The thinnest stuff I could find. Just to make sure oil got to the needle bearings.
When were they made? Look at the box. I have a set assembled in Sep 02. I have not fired it up yet. If they admit to a metal problem please let us know ASAP.
[ May 12, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[DogHouse]

Infomaniac:
Who put those in the engine?
Uh, that'd be me... :o
There were instructions regarding the packing grease and cleaning. I soaked them overnight in my parts washer, blew them clean with compressed air, then soaked for several hours in 30 wt before installation. Those oil holes are tiny though, it's always possible that I missed one. However if that was the case I don't think it would have lasted 10 hours like it did. These and the Crower severe-duty are the only ones that Larry Peto recommends. He uses these Iskys in almost all of his solid roller motors and mine is the first that went belly up. I talked to Isky, and they want me to send the cam and all of the lifters (or at least what's left of them!) in for analysis. No promises of course. I still have to pull the motor out of the boat and finish the teardown. It'll probably be a few weeks before I get an answer.
Don't have the box anymore since I used it to ship my old lifters. They were delivered in Feb if that helps.
-brian

[cjordan]

My comp lifter that failed only lasted 7hrs. The set before that had 42 hrs at change out. Can you feel any flat spots beginning to develop in the needle bearings as you roll the wheels?
My cam was 280/288 @.050 with .750 lift. I toned down the new one a little, mainly by taking out lift.
[ May 13, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: cjordan ]

[HammerDown]

Couple weeks ago "2 Guys Garage" had a Comp Cams tech on there show...even he said as good as they can be, there's just to many moving parts that can go wrong with Rollers...then he stated that Winston Cup cars use Flat lifters that are spining to almost 9000 rpm...guess the Winston Cup Cars don't want to chance a roller failure during a race...guess the few Ponys lost is worth it.

[DogHouse]

Haven't checked the others yet for signs of stress. Been too depressed so I just sit on the couch and drink beer. cry
Just kidding, actually just been busy. I'll get back to the teardown here pretty soon.
I thought NASCAR was limited by the rule book to solid lifters? Could be wrong there, I don't really follow it much. But, yeah, I agree, these things can be troublesome with big springs. I am going to investigate changing cam profiles and backing off spring pressure a little. I don't really spin the motor that high (6200ish) so I wouldn't think that I would need the monster springs. I'm sure Larry is going to give me an earful for running these big Dart springs that came with the heads.

[West Coast Dave]

Dog House, Your right. NASCAR Winston Cup rules state that only a flat tappet cam is allowed, no rollers. Other classes in the NASCAR world, ie: Southwest Series, Trucks, etc. allow rollers and everbody uses them. You can just have a much more aggresive lobe profile w/ a roller cam. To help keep the lifter on the lobe at high RPM and not have to rely only on the valve spring go w/ a rev kit. Pain to install but worth it at high RPM's.

[cookieman]

I am sd to see that someone else had the same problem that I had with my Isky solid roller lifters. I lost #8 Exhaust the same way,roller split in half. I did a little damage to the cam. I was told from Isky that loss of oil caused the roller to get hot , then when the oil would hit the roler it would burnish the metal off of the wheel. I had the cam refurbished and all the liftes refurbished. cost $300 If it happens again I will go with Lunati.

[blowngas]

cookieman:
I am sd to see that someone else had the same problem that I had with my Isky solid roller lifters. I lost #8 Exhaust the same way,roller split in half. I did a little damage to the cam. I was told from Isky that loss of oil caused the roller to get hot , then when the oil would hit the roler it would burnish the metal off of the wheel. I had the cam refurbished and all the liftes refurbished. cost $300 If it happens again I will go with Lunati. Just curious---were you idiling the engine a lot or was it mostly under load the 7 hours it lasted? Roller cams won't handle idiling for long periods of time---Are you using isky springs that match the cam and lifters?---or at least equivilent ones?---I had a lunati lifter break the roller but suspect that the springs were not strong enough and the lifter started bouncing on the lobes and broke---but was turning it 8500---anyway---let us know what isky says--

[DogHouse]

Mine is a play motor so it saw plenty of idle time and only a total of a few minutes at WOT, roughly 6000-6200. Most of the time was just cruising between 2500-3500. Springs were the ones that came with the Dart heads, 270 lbs on the seat, 830 open. The cam is not extremely agressive so I would think that the springs were more than sufficient. I actually wonder if they're too much for my use. These Isky lifters have the pressure fed oiling to the roller so they were supposed to be ok for idle. Maybe not!

[Infomaniac]

I would not have ran that much spring pressure.
Hard on parts and a big waste of HP.
It is a strange situation. Too little spring pressure is worse.
Those lifters are the best for extended idling. I put them in the quad rotor engine dynoed yesterday. 150 # on the seat.
I run the Crower version in the Cougar. 250 # on the seat. The cam only requires 180# but I spin it close to 8k.
[ May 17, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[HBjet]

So what did the Quad Rotor dyno at?
HBjet

[Infomaniac]

We had difficulties. Could only get 7 lbs of boost.
It made 970 @ 6300 7lbs on 93 octane unleaded.
Dustin Whipple and Bobby Daniels are helping troubleshoot it.
Still trying to refine this video. Someone give it a try and see if it runs. Not your average dyno run. Plenty of steam and water.
Dyno Pull (http://marineassault.net/web.mpg)
[ May 17, 2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[Infomaniac]

Hate those double posts.
[ May 17, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[HBjet]

Infomaniac:
Hate those double posts. especially when your first was at 12:40pm and the double was at 9:55pm. That's one slow internet connection pal!
Hey, what do you guys think about Comp Mech. Roller lifters and Pro Magnum Roller Rockers?
HBjet

[Infomaniac]

Actually I quoted myself. Must have done that earlier. Just did not notice.
I like comp stuff. They have new shaft rockers you know.
[ May 17, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[HBjet]

Infomaniac:
They have new shaft rockers you know. I know, want to buy me a set?
HBjet

[DogHouse]

Hbjet, I ran a Comp cam & rollers for a couple of seasons with no problems. My spring pressures were a little lower at the time, 250/675 or thereabouts. Pretty ironic because I was told that the Comp rollers are more prone to failure, yet mine never broke, and the much more expensive Iskys are more reliable, yet... well you get the picture...

[24ROD]

DogHouse, How's the tear down going? Hopefully you didn't hurt the motor to bad. That's a bummer from what you said it was runnin real strong. See you out there soon.
Carlos

[LVjetboy]

Info, video works good. Cool!
jer

[DogHouse]

24ROD:
DogHouse, How's the tear down going? Hopefully you didn't hurt the motor to bad. That's a bummer from what you said it was runnin real strong. See you out there soon.
Carlos Howdy Carlos, not too much to report yet. I did drop off the short block at Larry's and said "fix it". My garage pass is wearing a little thin this year if you know what I mean... eek!
Also sent the cam and lifters back today to be inspected. Hopefully I'll have some better info later this week. We'll be back, sooner or later, maybe in about a month if all goes well.
-brian

[Sandbar Mike]

Brian, I've been out of the loop lately, Sorry to here about your engine, F'n sucks. Disregard my email asking if your going to Havasu this weekend, didn't mean to twist the knife.
Good luck on getting that thing back together.

[Max_182]

Have you examined the break under magnification? I'd be interested to see if it was a progressive break (several "fronts" visible) or if it broke all at once. If the latter, I'd suspect a manufacturing problem such as over hardening. Were there any flat spots visible? Any other degradation of the ground surface? And above all, I'd be looking for signs of detonation. I've wiped out a lot of cams over the years, mostly back when I was buying the cheaper stuff. Running 800 pound springs will wear them out faster, but I was getting 50 hours at least. And I've NEVER seen one break like that.

[Max_182]

Oh, and being an engine forensics freak, I'd also filter the "chunks" out of the oil and look for indicators. You'd be surprised what you can determine "after the fact". <nod>

[DogHouse]

Isky called. We have achieved the best possible outcome. They don't know exactly why, but they do admit that the lifter failed for no obvious reason. They assured me that it was an isolated case and that I could expect good service life in the future. They are rebuilding all of them with new bearings & rollers, and are making up a brand new cam, same profile as the Erson that got destroyed. Parts will ship tomorrow at the latest. They acknowledged that both the cam profile and the spring pressures are reasonable and well suited to the application. I know that they would never cover the labor involved in rebuilding the motor, but at least they are warrantying the broken valve trane parts. That's about as good as it gets in the hot rod industry. Hopefully we'll be back in the water in a few weeks...
-brian

[LVjetboy]

Glad they backed you up. Now I'm curious, has anyone tried crane hyd rollers? I see crane this, crane that on high hp crate engines. So what's the story? Why do they use crane if other after-markets like isky are better? Cost?
jer

[Infomaniac]

Whew !!!