Fuel curve starting point

[jamessampica]

Ok guy's i need help.Is there any formula out there to figure out which jet's and pill i should start with to be safe.It's on gas.580ci BBC blown and injected with a psi blower.The set-up for the jet's are {4} in the blower and {1} in the back of the hat.The blower is set-up for +40.I called Jim Mayer and i was told to call Enderle and then the busy signal.No answer!!!!So i thought maybe with all the knowledge on here you all could point me in the right direction.LATER!!
JIM S
E-mail Cheyenne580@mchsi.com or 602-448-9374

[revndave]

Call Enderle.They were right on the money with my deal.My new deal gets dynoed this Weds. :D No injector this time.

[jamessampica]

Do you remember who you talked too?And what phone number did you use.Hope to see ya at the river soon.
JIM S
P.S. Let me know how your motor does on the dyno!!!!

[revndave]

Guys name was Jim at Enderle.

[Fiat48]

Suggestions would be dangerous. Jim will want to know how good the blower is, how much boost, nozzle and pump size. Do yourself a favor and don't run any high speed to start. Run 1 single pill to start. When in doubt..fatten it 10.

[jamessampica]

There's no high speed on it.And the blower is in good shape.I'm running a 80A pump and the rest of it i need help with.It seem's like i've got to keep trying and trying to get Jim on the phone at ENDERLE.Oh well i'll try again.LATER!!!!!
JIM S

[Fiat48]

You want me to try and ballpark you I will. No warranty expressed or implied.

[jamessampica]

You want me to try and ballpark you I will. No warranty expressed or implied.
Go ahead and give it a shot.I know there's no warranty expressed or implied.If you don't feel you should that's fine i understand.I don't need it damaged.LATER!!!!!
JIM S

[Fiat48]

Injector type (birdcatcher, etc)
Barrel valve (square red, square black or K type)
Blower % overdrive/underdrive you want to start at.
Gas/alcohol.
T tank or side tanks in boat (where you return fuel to).
Compression ratio (approx o.k.)
What was injection set up for...gas or alcohol originally? What size nozzles and pills do you have?
Answer that stuff.

[jamessampica]

Injector type (birdcatcher, etc)
Barrel valve (square red, square black or K type)
Blower % overdrive/underdrive you want to start at.
Gas/alcohol.
T tank or side tanks in boat (where you return fuel to).
Compression ratio (approx o.k.)
What was injection set up for...gas or alcohol originally? What size nozzles and pills do you have?
Answer that stuff.
Ok here you go.
Birdcatcher{4 Square door's}
Square black
+40 over on GAS
T-Tank
Comp is 9-1
It was alway's set-up for Gas.I have no pill's or jet's yet so tell me what i need to get.
Hope you can ballpark me in the right direction.
JIM S
P.S. I'll send you a pic of the hat if needed?

[Fiat48]

Ok here you go.
Birdcatcher{4 Square door's}
Square black
+40 over on GAS
T-Tank
Comp is 9-1
It was alway's set-up for Gas.I have no pill's or jet's yet so tell me what i need to get.
Hope you can ballpark me in the right direction.
JIM S
P.S. I'll send you a pic of the hat if needed?
Since you have no pills or nozzles then Jim should point the way. Probably a 31 nozzle. Pills in the 120 range. But if you insist on running that blower 40% over...he may go a larger nozzle for sure. So hang in there and get hold of Jim.
If it were mine I would back that blower down...way down. Like 6 over at a max to start. You're at a low corrected altitude and it would be safer that way.
Make sure you have a #12 fuel line to the pump. #6 everywhere else is o.k. Run a #8 heat range plug so it will show heat fast while you find the tuneup. Then a colder plug is o.k. 34 timing and no more for a motor that size.

[jamessampica]

I understand and i do thank you for your honesty.The line size's are just what you said they should be.Maybe i figured the overdrive wrong since i have an 50 pulley on top and a 70 on the bottom does that figure out to be 40 over?Educate me on this if you will. And again thank you for trying.
JIM S
P.S.Oh yes on the plug's i'm running autolite AR 3910's

[Fiat48]

Looks like 40 over to me. http://www.goodvibesracing.com/Ratio%20Charts.htm

[jamessampica]

Thank you again for your help.I'll let you know what Jim say's.
JIM S

[revndave]

Hey Jim
My tune up on my 515 was
Birdcatcher(standard gas barrel valve)
17% over on a 8-71=12lbs.
34 timing
31 nozzle
120 pill
This what I ended up with after dyno.

[Fiat48]

But don't do that with your inches, 40 over and a psi blower. PSI rise time is going to be faster than a roots blower.

[revndave]

But don't do that with your inches, 40 over and a psi blower. PSI rise time is going to be faster than a roots blower.
I didnt say do that.I put that down because I think your original post is too lean.

[revndave]

Hey Jim
Did you talk to Dan Nelson?He runs those PSI blowers.

[jamessampica]

Hey Jim
Did you talk to Dan Nelson?He runs those PSI blowers.
Dave the answer to you question is yes i've talked to Dan Nelson.I consider Dan as the Guru of setting up and tuning a PSI and he is my best freind.We have done alot as to the racing aspect with a jetboat plus using the PSI.Now i just want to learn this stuff myself if i can.Since Dan is very busy i don't like to bother him everytime i need help.And i'm not saying he would'nt drop everything to help me because he would but it's time to try this on my own.He's the one that build's my motor's and he know's everything that is in it.
I guess what i'm trying to say is he's alway's there if i need help.Plus i don't like to go to the river or the lake and have to ask Dan stupid question's about why the motor is doing this or why it's not doing that.I heard some people talking about if i did'nt have Dan there to tune my motor it would'nt be as fast as it is.It's time to try this on my own.
If Dan read's this or if someone tell's him i hope this does'nt piss him off.This is not a slam on DAN NELSEN or the guy's at JETT PERFORMANCE!!!!
Sorry about the long answer to your question but you know how roomier's start.
JIM S

[revndave]

Dave the answer to you question is yes i've talked to Dan Nelson.I consider Dan as the Guru of setting up and tuning a PSI and he is my best freind.We have done alot as to the racing aspect with a jetboat plus using the PSI.Now i just want to learn this stuff myself if i can.Since Dan is very busy i don't like to bother him everytime i need help.And i'm not saying he would'nt drop everything to help me because he would but it's time to try this on my own.He's the one that build's my motor's and he know's everything that is in it.
I guess what i'm trying to say is he's alway's there if i need help.Plus i don't like to go to the river or the lake and have to ask Dan stupid question's about why the motor is doing this or why it's not doing that.I heard some people talking about if i did'nt have Dan there to tune my motor it would'nt be as fast as it is.It's time to try this on my own.
If Dan read's this or if someone tell's him i hope this does'nt piss him off.This is not a slam on DAN NELSEN or the guy's at JETT PERFORMANCE!!!!
Sorry about the long answer to your question but you know how roomier's start.
JIM S
I completely understand.I have a couple of friends in the boat and engine business.I bug them all the time with why and how questions.You should come down to Blythe for Labor Day.

[Unchained]

Any injection tuning is going to be months of guesswork without an O2 sensor to tell you what mixture is coming out the pipes.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product_image.php?imageid=41
Even if you have trouble getting the midrange to run clean with the mechanical injection the O2 sensor will tell you what the mixture is at max rpm.
For $ 350.00 is a cheap tuning tool.
OH NO, SOMETHING ELSE TO LEARN .................... :D

[steve d]

You want me to try and ballpark you I will. No warranty expressed or implied.
FIAT- Been waiting for some talk on this subject. Hoping for some real grassroots input (old time backyard experience)--do's and don'ts etc.
Do you have time for this?----454-.030, 10-71 new gas,dart-merlin-119cc--325,225e-188i--8to1,Hilborn 150c-1,Hilborn-bug. I will be calling Jim also.Trying to learn and injest alot of the different thoughts and parameters you guys have in this area. Fuel lines are set up for alky other than that I have nothing yet. Isky recommended this cam-272@ .050 720intake--282@.050 708 exhaust----others were close except LSM. THANKS IN ADVANCE-STEVE
NOZZLES
JETS
OVER-DRIVE, -UNDER-DRIVE?
hs,ls------?
pulley sizes
etc.
Another offshoot and I know I'm going to get some flak over this-
This same motor and run it on alky-I'm not going full tilt K racing-just a nice running engine.I realize there will be some basic changes Don't want to tear it down : I have a 175-2
nozzles
jets
over-drive
hs,ls
pulleys sizes
17%---NITRO?????????
etc.
If this is too much---I understand......thanks again-Steve
p.s. house is still for sale next door.

[Fiat48]

FIAT- Been waiting for some talk on this subject. Hoping for some real grassroots input (old time backyard experience)--do's and don'ts etc.
Do you have time for this?----454-.030, 10-71 new gas,dart-merlin-119cc--325,225e-188i--8to1,Hilborn 150c-1,Hilborn-bug. I will be calling Jim also.Trying to learn and injest alot of the different thoughts and parameters you guys have in this area. Fuel lines are set up for alky other than that I have nothing yet. Isky recommended this cam-272@ .050 720intake--282@.050 708 exhaust----others were close except LSM. THANKS IN ADVANCE-STEVE
NOZZLES
JETS
OVER-DRIVE, -UNDER-DRIVE?
hs,ls------?
pulley sizes
etc.
Another offshoot and I know I'm going to get some flak over this-
This same motor and run it on alky-I'm not going full tilt K racing-just a nice running engine.I realize there will be some basic changes Don't want to tear it down : I have a 175-2
nozzles
jets
over-drive
hs,ls
pulleys sizes
17%---NITRO?????????
etc.
If this is too much---I understand......thanks again-Steve
p.s. house is still for sale next door.
I'll do the best I can but have not had experience in all things.
The 454 +.030 deal:
Gas a 30 nozzle is enough. Alcohol you should do 48's & 50's.
That small pump (150) is about 7 gpm. That will supply enough alcohol if you don't get too crazy.
Gas...I am rusty on this....start about a 120 pill. No high speed. #7 heat range plug. Start tuning and then go #8 or 9 plug when close. Reason for this is I want to scare you into keeping the motor fat...the 7 plug can and will fizzle a ground strap if you get outa bounds. Won't hurt the motor but will scare you. When in doubt..fatten it 10.
Remember air is everything...altitude and blower boost. Put the blower like 10 over..even less to start. I usually do 4 over.
Use 8mm pulleys. More guys have them...easier to try a pulley and 8mm is enough. Stay in the 50's and mid 40's. Ratio wise...rough figure is 2% a tooth.
Like a 50 on the bottom and a 49 on the top is 2% over.
Sorry..never played with the Nitro...was always a someday but alcohol was enough to do the jobs I wanted to do without killing parts.
Blown gas is harder than blown alcohol to tune. About the only thing I do different on an alcohol motor than a gas is compression and taper wall wrist pins.
That said..here's some food for thought.
An 80a or Pg150-1 pump in good order does 7 gpm. The big pump is about 13 gpm as I remember. I have one of those big pumps on the shelf in my garage. Never have used it.
My question when I went to alcohol was "why do I need a 13 gpm pump " for the "mild" blown alcohol I do? Endlerle said I needed the big pump for alcohol. I could not see how I could burn 7 gpm of fuel for what I do. So I went my own direction with the small pump. I still run an 80a pump on my boat and on all the drag cars plus all the motors I have built for people.
At 200 mph in the Fiat I still had enough fuel. I was running a .060 pill. I figured I would bump the blower till she would burn it all..with a blank for a main jet. But it never got there.
So what I am saying is..you can run the small pump (make sure it is good) on alcohol. Easier to tune with no high speed to fool with. I've been doing it 20 years. Enderle has since come up with a pump that does like 9 gpm. I'd like to try that one someday.
One more thing. I try to build a motor as effecient as I can and then add a little bit of blower boost. I run high static compression (12.5 to 1) and run the blower very slow and sometimes underdrive. Seems more tuneable that way for me and I don't depend on the blower so much.

[BUSBY]

Hey Jim ... since we run almost the same set up ... Daytona, PSI, 80A, bla bla bla ... only difference is 540 ci vs. yours ... here's the tune up we used as well as Frank Nagore did when he was running this PSI (which used to be Dan Nelsons from what I understand) running at 52% over
Staggering from the front of the hat to the rear, 32's/34's/36's/38's ... hose sizes 12 to the pump and #6 returns ... no high speed, actually we run a high speed enrichment set up for the big end ... pill sizes range from 115's through 125 depending on altitude, temp, humidity, etc.
The best way to get it set up though is to send it out and have everything flowed ... if you go through Ralph Gorr (as I do) he'll totally set you up for around $800 ... nozzels, flow sheet, secret Gorr book of tuning tips, lifetime phone tech help, etc. etc. etc. Just tell him (or his son Spike) that I told you to call ... they'll totally take care of you while setting it up properly. My best advice to you and probably the best $800 you'll ever spend.
They will want all lines to your hat, your hat, pump, shut off & for you to fill out a spec sheet prior to working on it ... they (unlike others) want everything so they can flow a complete system ... from your tank all of the way through.
Check them out ... http://www.gorrfuelsystems.com/
Others can help you out as well ... but I put my trust in Gorr.
Brian

[jamessampica]

Hey Jim
My tune up on my 515 was
Birdcatcher(standard gas barrel valve)
17% over on a 8-71=12lbs.
34 timing
31 nozzle
120 pill
This what I ended up with after dyno.
Hey Dave
Well i talked to Jim at Enderle and this is what he suggested;
Jet's {5} .043
Pill .113 to .116
80A pump is fine
He love's my old school hat
+40 over is ok but no more{20lbs}
Autolite AR 3910 plug's are ok {Watch the heat on ground strap}
Pyro's ????????????can't post.
Thank you all for the help and info. hope to see ya at the river soon.
I'm planning on being at BLYTHE on Labor Day.Not if i don't know anyone there.Later!!!!
JIM S
FIAT48 thank you for your time!!!!!!

[steve d]

I'll do the best I can but have not had experience in all things.
The 454 +.030 deal:
Gas a 30 nozzle is enough. Alcohol you should do 48's & 50's.
That small pump (150) is about 7 gpm. That will supply enough alcohol if you don't get too crazy.
Gas...I am rusty on this....start about a 120 pill. No high speed. #7 heat range plug. Start tuning and then go #8 or 9 plug when close. Reason for this is I want to scare you into keeping the motor fat...the 7 plug can and will fizzle a ground strap if you get outa bounds. Won't hurt the motor but will scare you. When in doubt..fatten it 10.
Remember air is everything...altitude and blower boost. Put the blower like 10 over..even less to start. I usually do 4 over.
Use 8mm pulleys. More guys have them...easier to try a pulley and 8mm is enough. Stay in the 50's and mid 40's. Ratio wise...rough figure is 2% a tooth.
Like a 50 on the bottom and a 49 on the top is 2% over.
Sorry..never played with the Nitro...was always a someday but alcohol was enough to do the jobs I wanted to do without killing parts.
Blown gas is harder than blown alcohol to tune. About the only thing I do different on an alcohol motor than a gas is compression and taper wall wrist pins.
That said..here's some food for thought.
An 80a or Pg150-1 pump in good order does 7 gpm. The big pump is about 13 gpm as I remember. I have one of those big pumps on the shelf in my garage. Never have used it.
My question when I went to alcohol was "why do I need a 13 gpm pump " for the "mild" blown alcohol I do? Endlerle said I needed the big pump for alcohol. I could not see how I could burn 7 gpm of fuel for what I do. So I went my own direction with the small pump. I still run an 80a pump on my boat and on all the drag cars plus all the motors I have built for people.
At 200 mph in the Fiat I still had enough fuel. I was running a .060 pill. I figured I would bump the blower till she would burn it all..with a blank for a main jet. But it never got there.
So what I am saying is..you can run the small pump (make sure it is good) on alcohol. Easier to tune with no high speed to fool with. I've been doing it 20 years. Enderle has since come up with a pump that does like 9 gpm. I'd like to try that one someday.
One more thing. I try to build a motor as effecient as I can and then add a little bit of blower boost. I run high static compression (12.5 to 1) and run the blower very slow and sometimes underdrive. Seems more tuneable that way for me and I don't depend on the blower so much.
Just got home I'll be back ----Thanks so much....Steve

[revndave]

Hey Dave
Well i talked to Jim at Enderle and this is what he suggested;
Jet's {5} .043
Pill .113 to .116
80A pump is fine
He love's my old school hat
+40 over is ok but no more{20lbs}
Autolite AR 3910 plug's are ok {Watch the heat on ground strap}
Pyro's ????????????can't post.
Thank you all for the help and info. hope to see ya at the river soon.
I'm planning on being at BLYTHE on Labor Day.Not if i don't know anyone there.Later!!!!
JIM S
FIAT48 thank you for your time!!!!!!
Good Luck Jim.I'll be at Blythe on Labor Day.See ya there.

[steve d]

WOW !!!!!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU.---------
As you can see I'm on a limited budget or I would play with two motors. Gas and Alky. let's see If I can respond intelligently. Being fat doesn't bother me an ounce-never did like taking a plug out and seeing it sparkle....$$$$$$. 10-4 on that. Can you remember a fella by the name of BUBBY WILTON.---Gave me some pointers and one of them was a 150a-1 or an 80a-1 would work on alky....15% over. Also said the low compression was tough to work with. So your not alone. Bought the 175-2 because hilborn said I would need it for over 1/2 mile straights. Should have talked to you first.
As for nitro- used to run midgets in the 70's -- nitro was legal. Up to 20% depending on 30 or 50 lap mains. They say under 30% it doesn't do any good --it worked for us.. got to use a taller gear and great for shorter tracks. The jist of this----thought it might help because of the lower compression . ON off season we R&D a Kawasaki 100cc 2-cycle green streak motorcycle with some alky and nitro- went by the Kawasaki factory 250cc class -rod needle bearings only lasted a weekend and had a hellava time with the motor wanting to diesel.......LOTS OF FUN!!! I forgot to ask you what you thought about ring gaps. I've been told for gas between .040 and .050 top ring. and for alky----?
Bob I gotta say---You , steelcomp ,info, and the rest of the guys that spend so much of your time answering questions is GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!
Thanks again .......Steve

[Fiat48]

Follow the ring makers chart for the specific application. I think the top ring on my boat motor is .032. Usually I am around .032 to .035 on the top ring. The 2nd ring I use the C&A gapless and it is usually about .040.
The old days we used to close up the 2nd ring..today they say not to do it and some even gap wider than the top. Today I just stay the loose side of what they recommend.

[SUI-CY-COLE DIMARCO]

gorr is good also....fiat...you are a man with knowledge..it sounds like your tune-up is pretty damm close...i need to go out to the shop to see the rodeck its been awhile.....i believe on alky it was 54 in the hat port i cant remmeber...ports were all over the place,,to try to fine tune each cylinder..it ran 14mm pulleys 40-60% over with a 1100 pump(coated)14-71,with either a conventional,helix or retro,buzzard catcher with k-nitro barrel valve,.10 on flies, 70% leak...ill be back ill go grab my tune book........

[Fiat48]

Uually the guys square the hat with 48's to 50's and then do the ports in the 30's as I remember.
But I only run the hat and don't do port nozzles cause I don't need them with the low blower drives I run. I did run ports a couple times but took them off as my tuneup was just more consistant with just hats for the small pump. High pressure system..good atomization.

[BUSBY]

Jim ... been a couple of days ... seems like you've got a lot of input ... good advice here as you can see ...
but as I have said before (no offense Bob) ... but I would not trust a "shoot from the hip" method.
You should get your complete system flowed ... that is the only true way to know what your system is doing.
I don't care who does it ... just get someone who does it to do it ... it's a minor investment for your overall costs. Calling Jim will not flow your pump, and heaven forbid that there is a problem there.
Again, Gorr does all of our stuff ... and Ralph or Spike will take care of you. Jim @ Enderle will also take care of you, there are others that are just as good.
Just have it flowed.
Just make sure you know where your equipment stands before you look for a tune up ... my advice ... take it for what it's worth, I would hate to see you hurt you equipment.
Brian