Blown head gasket opinions

[CVX20Dustin]

What could have caused my head gasket to go in my 460. This is a fresh long block form the machine shop maybe 10 hours on it. Motor has new alum. heads, intake, ARP bolts and 9-1 compression. I did check the torque be for pulling the head and it was ok.Could this have been the machine shops fault from installing it wrong. Here is a picture.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2827100_0497-thumb.JPG

[Liberator TJ1984]

I would suspect detonation ??/ what was the timing set at and is it locked out ??

[BUSBY]

too lean condition possibly?
It looks like you blew it out into the lifter galley?
Are the heads true? (not warped) with that type of heat, you should have them checked now.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2827100_0497.JPG

[CVX20Dustin]

I would suspect detonation ??/ what was the timing set at and is it locked out ??
I have the distributer full adv. set at 20. The initial timing I set by ear because marks on the balancer are back wards. So I found tdc on number one and put a timing tape on it and that didn't help at ideal it show 25 and if you try to back it down to 10 to 15 it will die. The machine shop put the wrong balancer on it when I had it rebuilt.They told me some motors just run more timing you could time it before I had work on it. I haven't hear it ping and it starts up good when its hot. It did have a futter noise coming from the exhaust ( log throw transome ) at 3200 to 4000 RPM. I put lighter springs in and it went away and comes out of the hole alot better.

[CVX20Dustin]

too lean condition possibly?
It looks like you blew it out into the lifter galley?
Are the heads true? (not warped) with that type of heat, you should have them checked now.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2827100_0497.JPG
Yes, it did blow in to the lifter galley. To late to have them checked all back together will pray. For being to lean I don't think so I'm running a Edelbrock 750 with biggest jets in the jet kit and smaller needles. The plugs ( auto lites ) still look new except the one that had the blown gasket. The top of the pistons where all black does that tell you anything.

[Morg]

I have the distributer full adv. set at 20. The initial timing I set by ear because marks on the balancer are back wards. So I found tdc on number one and put a timing tape on it and that didn't help at ideal it show 25 and if you try to back it down to 10 to 15 it will die. The machine shop put the wrong balancer on it when I had it rebuilt.They told me some motors just run more timing you could time it before I had work on it. I haven't hear it ping and it starts up good when its hot. It did have a futter noise coming from the exhaust ( log throw transome ) at 3200 to 4000 RPM. I put lighter springs in and it went away and comes out of the hole alot better.
Dude, F'n scary
You really need to know where your timing is at when fully advanced. I would highy recomend accuratly marking the balancer. Your machine shop should take a little responsability & help you out with this.

[Oldsquirt]

Dude, F'n scary
You really need to know where your timing is at when fully advanced. I would highy recomend accuratly marking the balancer. Your machine shop should take a little responsability & help you out with this.
Ditto this advice. NEVER set timing by ear and then just figure its OK. Accuracy is mandatory!!!!

[CVX20Dustin]

Why would my timing read so high. Its the original block with the original timing pointer. I found TDC on number one same place factory mark and put timing tape on.

[Morg]

Why would my timing read so high. Its the original block with the original timing pointer. I found TDC on number one same place factory mark and put timing tape on.
Your timing is where you set it???
In my old boat, my 460 wanted 15-20 btdc degrees @ startup & 36 btdc above 3K rpm. But thats where I tuned it to.
Lets start here:
Is your timing locked, or a mechanical advance?
Are you shure your balancer is correct @ TDC?
I'm guessing you are using the stick on timing tape, Are you sure its the correct length for you balancer O.D.?
Also are you running points or electronic?

[CVX20Dustin]

Your timing is where you set it???
In my old boat, my 460 wanted 15-20 btdc degrees @ startup & 36 btdc above 3K rpm. But thats where I tuned it to.
Lets start here:
Is your timing locked, or a mechanical advance?
Are you shure your balancer is correct @ TDC?
I'm guessing you are using the stick on timing tape, Are you sure its the correct length for you balancer O.D.?
Also are you running points or electronic?
I have Mechanical advance
I put finger over spark plug hole turned over till it popped off. Same spot as factory mark.
Tape said 460 on it 7" balancer. I couldn't measure the dia. of the balancer but the marks on the balancer were spaced the same as on the tape.
Electric dist.
I don't under stand degreeing the cam. The machine shop said they degree the cam could this be a problem.

[Moneypitt]

No........

[BrendellaJet]

here is your problem!(unless of course you changed the balancer...?
"The machine shop put the wrong balancer on it when I had it rebuilt."
"Tape said 460 on it 7" balancer. I couldn't measure the dia. of the balancer but the marks on the balancer were spaced the same as on the tape."

[058]

Gasket looks typical of detonation....excessive cylinder pressure. Locate TDC and time your engine to the newly found accurate marks.

[Morg]

[QUOTE=CVX20Dustin]I have Mechanical advance -OK you should be around 10-15 deg at startup, then 32-36 deg fully advanced.
I put finger over spark plug hole turned over till it popped off. Same spot as factory mark. This tells you you are on compression stroke. you still need to know if the marks is trully TDC, being the builder gave you a different ballancer it could be off. Probably not but you need to know for sure.
Tape said 460 on it 7" balancer. I couldn't measure the dia. of the balancer but the marks on the balancer were spaced the same as on the tape. This should get you close if in fact you have a 7" balancer. I still highly recomend getting the ballancer stamped accuratly. I personaly would not trust a peice of tape I got from Kragen
Electric dist.
I don't under stand degreeing the cam. The machine shop said they degree the cam could this be a problem. No, Even if done incorrectly the cam timing will not cause detonation. Your cam should be set straight up. not advanced or retarded. Factory 460's came with a 4 deg. advanced timing chain during the 70's, for emissions. Your motor shop should be able to tell you where its at, being they degreed it.QUOTE]

[CVX20Dustin]

Is there another way to find exact TDC with out a dail indicator I think its called.
Thanks for all the info

[Mighty Thor]

There is only one surefire way to find TDC and that is to put a dial on the piston and when it quits moving up you have TDC. However, there are several ways to get pretty close some of which require that your balancer be the right one with the right marks in the right spots. Since you have the head off use the dial indicator They are cheap to buy and even cheaper to rent. Even an inexpensive one will work. However, here is an alternative I have used. take a piece of angle iron and drill two holes in it so that you can bolt it flat accross the #1 cylinder. Drill a third hold in it so that it is over the center of the piston. Tap the middle hole so you can thread a bolt into it so that the bolt sticks down into the cylinder a ways. don't need much, and if you have flat top pistons you may have to put a couple of spacer washers between the angle iron and the block. Once you have the set up in place make sure you are on the compression stroke via the Cam timing and start the piston toward TDC. As it comes up SLOWELY your piston should come up and touch the bolt. As you back the bolt off, raise the piston a little. At some point Piston will either just touch the bolt and start back down or you will reach a point that you backed the bolt off a little too much and it won't touch. At this point I use a feeler guage and set the bolt so that there is a little clearance. Then I back the piston down just a little and slowly bring it back up. When it is at the closest point to the bolt according to the feeler guages that is TDC. Mark it on your balancer. and see how close it is to the marks that are already there. You might be surprised.

[Zeug]

There is only one surefire way to find TDC and that is to put a dial on the piston and when it quits moving up you have TDC. However, there are several ways to get pretty close some of which require that your balancer be the right one with the right marks in the right spots. Since you have the head off use the dial indicator They are cheap to buy and even cheaper to rent. Even an inexpensive one will work. However, here is an alternative I have used. take a piece of angle iron and drill two holes in it so that you can bolt it flat accross the #1 cylinder. Drill a third hold in it so that it is over the center of the piston. Tap the middle hole so you can thread a bolt into it so that the bolt sticks down into the cylinder a ways. don't need much, and if you have flat top pistons you may have to put a couple of spacer washers between the angle iron and the block. Once you have the set up in place make sure you are on the compression stroke via the Cam timing and start the piston toward TDC. As it comes up SLOWELY your piston should come up and touch the bolt. As you back the bolt off, raise the piston a little. At some point Piston will either just touch the bolt and start back down or you will reach a point that you backed the bolt off a little too much and it won't touch. At this point I use a feeler guage and set the bolt so that there is a little clearance. Then I back the piston down just a little and slowly bring it back up. When it is at the closest point to the bolt according to the feeler guages that is TDC. Mark it on your balancer. and see how close it is to the marks that are already there. You might be surprised.
I was taught to use a dial guage too. But for a quick and dirty way I do it like you do except to run the piston up till i bumps the stop at about .050" or so from top and mark the balancer. Then reverse the piston and run it up till it bumps in the other direction. At .050" before TDC your two marks wont be that far apart and you can put your real TDC mark dead in between the two.

[CVX20Dustin]

Thanks for the info but I already have the head on. Is there away to do it with the head on.

[Fiat48]

[QUOTE=CVX20Dustin]I have Mechanical advance -OK you should be around 10-15 deg at startup, then 32-36 deg fully advanced.
I put finger over spark plug hole turned over till it popped off. Same spot as factory mark. This tells you you are on compression stroke. you still need to know if the marks is trully TDC, being the builder gave you a different ballancer it could be off. Probably not but you need to know for sure.
Tape said 460 on it 7" balancer. I couldn't measure the dia. of the balancer but the marks on the balancer were spaced the same as on the tape. This should get you close if in fact you have a 7" balancer. I still highly recomend getting the ballancer stamped accuratly. I personaly would not trust a peice of tape I got from Kragen
Electric dist.
I don't under stand degreeing the cam. The machine shop said they degree the cam could this be a problem. No, Even if done incorrectly the cam timing will not cause detonation. Your cam should be set straight up. not advanced or retarded. Factory 460's came with a 4 deg. advanced timing chain during the 70's, for emissions. Your motor shop should be able to tell you where its at, being they degreed it.QUOTE]
I thought the 460 cams from the factory were RETARDED by the gear setup. Am I right or wrong?
Where the Hell is 058 when you need him? :D LOL. He would know for sure.

[Mighty Thor]

Thanks for the info but I already have the head on. Is there away to do it with the head on.
With the head on It is lots tougher to get a precise measure. with the oil pan off You could probably figure out a way to measure from the bottom.
Just to see if things are close you can put a piece of rope in through the spark plug hole and bring the piston up till it hits the rope and stops, mark the spot on the balancer then go backwards till it stops, make another mark and split the difference. This is the same method that Zeug was talking about in his post and it will get you pretty close.

[CVX20Dustin]

With the head on It is lots tougher to get a precise measure. with the oil pan off You could probably figure out a way to measure from the bottom.
Just to see if things are close you can put a piece of rope in through the spark plug hole and bring the piston up till it hits the rope and stops, mark the spot on the balancer then go backwards till it stops, make another mark and split the difference. This is the same method that Zeug was talking about in his post and it will get you pretty close.
Thanks will do tomorrow. How about a pic of your boat.

[1BIGJIM]

Use a piston stop that goes in the spark plug hole. Then setup your dial indicator.

[Mighty Thor]

Use a piston stop that goes in the spark plug hole. Then setup your dial indicator.
Right, but he was asking about ways to do it without a dial indicator. Certainly, the dial indicator is the best way, but sometimes you have to figure out TDC and you may have limited access to tools. So we were giving some alternative methods.
Here is a picture of my CVX20 It is pretty much a basket case but it floats and that serves my purposes for now.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2121CVX_floating2.jpg

[CVX20Dustin]

Right, but he was asking about ways to do it without a dial indicator. Certainly, the dial indicator is the best way, but sometimes you have to figure out TDC and you may have limited access to tools. So we were giving some alternative methods.
Here is a picture of my CVX20 It is pretty much a basket case but it floats and that serves my purposes for now.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2121CVX_floating2.jpg
Looks pretty good in the photo. Here's a pic of mine. I don't know how to get the picture to pop up but heres the link.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2827100_0484.JPG

[058]

I thought the 460 cams from the factory were RETARDED by the gear setup. Am I right or wrong?
Where the Hell is 058 when you need him? :D LOL. He would know for sure.
Hey Bob, you are right...The 429-460s from 68 thru 70 were straight up, Ford then retarded cams via crank sprocket key location 8 deg retard in 71. Some will dispute the date of which they retarded the cam but I think it has more to do with what engine plant made the engine and where its DSO was. If you order the "early" timing set you will get a 0 cam timed set, if you don't specificy you will get the 8 deg retard "late" set.

[Mighty Thor]

You mean like this?
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2827100_0484.JPG

[Morg]

Hey Bob, you are right...The 429-460s from 68 thru 70 were straight up, Ford then retarded cams via crank sprocket key location 8 deg retard in 71. Some will dispute the date of which they retarded the cam but I think it has more to do with what engine plant made the engine and where its DSO was. If you order the "early" timing set you will get a 0 cam timed set, if you don't specificy you will get the 8 deg retard "late" set.
Hey I had a 50/50 chance.
Now Help me out with this. I had been told retarding a cam in some cases can help top end. Did Ford retard the cam for emissions or performance?

[058]

Hey I had a 50/50 chance.
Now Help me out with this. I had been told retarding a cam in some cases can help top end. Did Ford retard the cam for emissions or performance?Morg, they did it for emission reasons, don't think a Lincoln Town Car needs the power on the top end :D :D Retarding the cam will indeed help power on the upper rpm range to a point. Generally if it needs more than 4 deg advance or retard you have the wrong cam.

[CVX20Dustin]

You mean like this?
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2827100_0484.JPG
How do you do that.

[Mighty Thor]

When you are posting a message you will see a little icon just above the text box that looks like a picture of a mountain. That is the insert button. When you move the cursor to a spot in the dialogue box and then hit that button it will put a picture there. You have to have the picture somewhere on the web and then you type or paste the picture's location in the spot the button provides. Since you had your picture on the hot boat site I just copied the picture address, pushed the insert button pasted your picture's location and Voila'. The picture can be anywhere on the web, but sometimes the links get lost. For example I had posted a bunch of pictures on the classic Glastron site and also linked them to messages here. When the Glastron site went down and then switched servers all those pictures quit showing up in my messages here.