Paging Boatcop - Orange Flag Question

[Captain Dan]

I tried to get this out on the Parker Moron thread, but it was cut.
I was taught that a flag was only for a downed skiier or a rope in the water, not for any of the other things that you listed, is that correct?
(Not for swimmers, not for rafts, etc.). Granted, it may be a good idea, but when I see a flag, I look for a skiier, or the direction of a rope.

[HCS]

My wife puts the flag up anytime anyone is in the water. That's just how she is.
It didn't use to be law to have a flag at all for anything. It was just recommended. All you had to do is raise an arm.

[boater72]

I do know that if you floating in your boat with people in the water you are to have a flag up. Boat cop would know for sure? :cool:

[Rod-64]

Vessels towing person(s) on water skis or similar devices must carry and use either a bright red or orange “skier down flag” that is at least 12 x 12 inches in size and mounted on a handle. The observer must be physically capable and mentally competent to act as an observer of a water skier. The observer must continuously observe the skier(s) and display a “skier down flag” whenever a skier is in the water after falling or while preparing to ski.

[Captain Dan]

Vessels towing person(s) on water skis or similar devices must carry and use either a bright red or orange “skier down flag” that is at least 12 x 12 inches in size and mounted on a handle. The observer must be physically capable and mentally competent to act as an observer of a water skier. The observer must continuously observe the skier(s) and display a “skier down flag” whenever a skier is in the water after falling or while preparing to ski.
I think that's only part of it - I believe you must also continue to show the flag when a rope is in the water. I guess you could construe the last sentence to include that event - the rope would be in the water if just fallen, and when trying to get up.
Dunno - Boatcop can help us.

[Creator]

Here is some good info
Boating laws Arizona (http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/outdoor_recreation/az_boaters_guide.pdf)

[Rod-64]

I think that's only part of it - I believe you must also continue to show the flag when a rope is in the water.
That was all there was on the AZ game and Fish boating regs.......pretty vague, no?? :D

[Rod-64]

Here is some good info
Boating laws Arizona (http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/outdoor_recreation/az_boaters_guide.pdf)
That's where I got my info................page 30.

[Creator]

My personal pet peeve is the newbies with their brand new boats that drive up and down the river pulling a skier (or wakeboarder) with the mrs holding the flag up the entire time.
Agreed, or when they hold up nothing at all with a skier in the water. I really like it when you see a flag that was orange in 1975 but looks white today.

[Captain Dan]

That's where I got my info................page 30.
I guess it gets back to my original question - is the flag required for swimmers, like when we all pull it over for a dip to cool off.
I don't think it is - I didn't see it in the book.

[Rod-64]

I guess it gets back to my original question - is the flag required for swimmers, like when we all pull it over for a dip to cool off.
I don't think it is - I didn't see it in the book.
This is a good question.....I've never put a flag out just when we're swimming to cool off. Does that make it legal? I don't know.
Try www.boatcop.com click on ask boatcop for a possible quicker response.

[Biglue]

I always thought that was the case. If you have a person in the water you should have the flag up. If it's not it still makes a good idea. Just my .02

[Captain Dan]

I always thought that was the case. If you have a person in the water you should have the flag up. If it's not it still makes a good idea. Just my .02
Yeah, but is it a good idea? If everyone is looking for a skiier or a rope, and they aren't there, could that cause a potential hazard with that flag up? You could be scanning the horizon for a head bobbing when the real caution is at the boat, and if the skiier or rope is never seen, you never really knew if the flag should have been there or not.
I'm cautious when it comes to overtaking boats and avoiding downed skiiers, but this flag up when not required by the rules could be akin to stopping at a yellow light on the street just to be safe - if it's not really a rule and sends the wrong message, it could be the source of a separate hazard.

[Boatcop]

Red or orange flag signifies a skier down in the water. It MAY be used if people are just swimming around the boat, but not required.
As far as the rope, here's where it gets dicey. A rope trailing from a boat, with no skier in proximity is an obstruction to navigation.
Case law. Here's the story.
On Lake X in AZ, Boat "A" had a flag up, rope in the water, skier on the swim-step getting ready to ski. Boat "B" comes along and clips the rope, parting it and sending the pulley (remember those things) into the face of a little girl swimming a short distance away, causing severe facial injuries and blindness in one eye.
Parents of little girl sue both boaters.
Boat "A" says it's not their fault, they had the flag up.
Boat "B" says it's not their fault, because they saw the skier on board the boat and thought that skiing operations had stopped, and there would be no reason to believe that a rope would still be in the water.
Judge ruled in favor of boat "B" and that a reasonable person would believe no rope would be present and that skiing was done, if the skier was on the boat and not in the water. "B" was held harmless in the incident, and boat "A" was the sole party at fault.
So, now (In AZ) a ski flag is for the skier in the water ONLY and has nothing to do with the tow rope.

[Biglue]

Red or orange flag signifies a skier down in the water. It MAY be used if people are just swimming around the boat, but not required.
As far as the rope, here's where it gets dicey. A rope trailing from a boat, with no skier in proximity is an obstruction to navigation.
Case law. Here's the story.
On Lake X in AZ, Boat "A" had a flag up, rope in the water, skier on the swim-step getting ready to ski. Boat "B" comes along and clips the rope, parting it and sending the pulley (remember those things) into the face of a little girl swimming a short distance away, causing severe facial injuries and blindness in one eye.
Parents of little girl sue both boaters.
Boat "A" says it's not their fault, they had the flag up.
Boat "B" says it's not their fault, because they saw the skier on board the boat and thought that skiing operations had stopped, and there would be no reason to believe that a rope would still be in the water.
Judge ruled in favor of boat "B" and that a reasonable person would believe no rope would be present and that skiing was done, if the skier was on the boat and not in the water. "B" was held harmless in the incident, and boat "A" was the sole party at fault.
So, now (In AZ) a ski flag is for the skier in the water ONLY and has nothing to do with the tow rope.
That was one hell of a lawyer. Most people on a boat would stay as far away as possible as a courtesy to the flag. I know I would. After reading that post you would think boat b was at fault.

[Captain Dan]

Thank you, Boatcop. That's AZ case law, so I will now look into CA and post again so everyone is in the know.

[Boatcop]

Thank you, Boatcop. That's AZ case law, so I will now look into CA and post again so everyone is in the know.
I'll beat you to it:
658.7. (a) Failure of the operator of a vessel involved in towing a
skier to display or cause to be displayed a ski flag, as described
in subdivision (a) of Section 7009 of Title 14 of the California Code
of Regulations, to indicate any of the following conditions, is an
infraction punishable by a fine not exceeding fifteen dollars ($15):
(1) A downed skier.
(2) A skier in the water preparing to ski.
(3) A ski line extended from the vessel.
(4) A ski in the water in the vicinity of the vessel.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a performer engaged in a
professional exhibition or a person engaged in a regatta, vessel or
water ski race or competition, or other marine event authorized
pursuant to Section 268.

[Creator]

That makes sence. More or less if there is a "hazard" in the water display your flag.

[termiteguy]

why does the sheriff at headgate dam pull alongside of boats that are floating and tell them to put the flag up when there is swimmers in the water?

[callbob4homes]

"The observer must be physically capable and mentally competent to act as an observer of a water skier."
Oh sure bring up mentally competent........................ :idea:

[diggler]

So if someone has the flag up, how far should you stay from them?
In the Delta, the waterways are limited, but you can get a good 50 yards from them without a problem and still stay on plane.

[Nord]

What happened??

[riverroyal]

i doubt,whip it out,,,wave that focker,it cant hurt

[Boatcop]

why does the sheriff at headgate dam pull alongside of boats that are floating and tell them to put the flag up when there is swimmers in the water?
Beats me. It's not *our* Sheriff types. (We don't patrol down there)
Maybe the Indian Police or San Bernardino. Either way, they don't know what they're talking about.

[Captain Dan]

I'll beat you to it:
Thanks again, Boatcop - that was the code I was used to seeing, and why I believed the rope in the water was part of the law, (but only in CA). Since both jurisdictions patrol Havasu, best to just to keep that flag up when a skier, a ski, or the rope is in the water.
The big question is still - do you have to have the flag while swimming, and we see that the answer is no, so far.
Here's another - when it's hot, and we stop for a dip, we all peel off the boat, and while floating at the swim step, I've oftened wondered - can all of the occupants of the boat be swimming/taking a dip? The boat isn't anchored, and it's not under power, and noone is at the helm.....

[Moneypitt]

Years ago as a driver approaching a boat with a flag up it was a courtesey to raise your hand when you "see" the skier/reason for their flag up. This tells the person holding the flag that you are aware of the person in the water, and will detour your course accordingly. I seldom see this done anymore, although I still do it. Any comments............MP

[Biglue]

Years ago as a driver approaching a boat with a flag up it was a courtesey to raise your hand when you "see" the skier/reason for their flag up. This tells the person holding the flag that you are aware of the person in the water, and will detour your course accordingly. I seldom see this done anymore, although I still do it. Any comments............MP
Yeah avoid the general area all together when you see a flag. It's what I try to do.

[Captain Dan]

Years ago as a driver approaching a boat with a flag up it was a courtesey to raise your hand when you "see" the skier/reason for their flag up. This tells the person holding the flag that you are aware of the person in the water, and will detour your course accordingly. I seldom see this done anymore, although I still do it. Any comments............MP
I do the same thing, make eye contact - let them know you see the reason for the flag.
I can see you are one of the courteous ones out there. ;)

[Boatcop]

I, too, raise my hand to let the ski-boat know that I see them.
No problem with not having anyone on the boat/at the helm when swimming.
But I'd caution you to remove the keys, so the boat doesn't get started with people in the water near the back of the boat. I've seen that happen too many times. Not pretty. Kids and drunks always seem to be the ones wanting to run the boat when the driver's away.

[INFINITEJJ]

Years ago as a driver approaching a boat with a flag up it was a courtesey to raise your hand when you "see" the skier/reason for their flag up. This tells the person holding the flag that you are aware of the person in the water, and will detour your course accordingly. I seldom see this done anymore, although I still do it. Any comments............MP
I still do the same thing. Just like you i will not raise my until i see the reason for the flag.
Also when we float for a dip we do not use the flag, kind of figure the boat is the flag.

[INFINITEJJ]

But I'd caution you to remove the keys, so the boat doesn't get started with people in the water near the back of the boat. I've seen that happen too many times. Not pretty. Kids and drunks always seem to be the ones wanting to run the boat when the driver's away.
I LOVE MY JETBOAT!

[Kachina26]

Hey BoatCop, check your PM's :)

[Jordy]

I do the same thing, make eye contact - let them know you see the reason for the flag.
I always like when the passenger(s) raise their hands when you can tell the driver isn't paying attention to what's going on. IMHO, the passenger with the hand up doesn't mean anything. I keep an eye out for the flags and make sure to give them a wide berth and let them know that I see them. ;)

[ahhell]

Years ago as a driver approaching a boat with a flag up it was a courtesey to raise your hand when you "see" the skier/reason for their flag up. This tells the person holding the flag that you are aware of the person in the water, and will detour your course accordingly. I seldom see this done anymore, although I still do it. Any comments............MP
I still do it...Its just common courtesy and if my passengers see it before I do they tell me...common sense!!!...( a rare thing these days) :mad:

[HCS]

I always like when the passenger(s) raise their hands when you can tell the driver isn't paying attention to what's going on. IMHO, the passenger with the hand up doesn't mean anything. I keep an eye out for the flags and make sure to give them a wide berth and let them know that I see them. ;)
I think they should show their tits! I thought we already talked about this son. :supp:

[Jordy]

I think they should show their tits! I thought we already talked about this son. :supp:
True, but we haven't been skiing in forever Dad. I hear that she's hanging out in Sac town this week. Getting some quality time??? :D :D :D
Tell J that I said hi. :D

[HCS]

True, but we haven't been skiing in forever Dad. I hear that she's hanging out in Sac town this week. Getting some quality time??? :D :D :D
Tell J that I said hi. :D
You know, I can't get a hold of her. I thought for sure it was your doing.
She said she was bringing a freind. I thought...Jordy! :D

[Seadog]

I know it is a moot discussion, but I have serious problems with the ruling by that judge. It presumes that the person on the swim step was the only person that could be in the water. I would think that the argument would be that a boater should assume that there may be other people in the water and proceed accordingly. Also, I believe the standard code says that you must maintain no-wake speed within 50' from a stationary boat, and in OK it is 10 mph for under 150'. It does not sound as if that was the case.

[BarryMac]

Yeah avoid the general area all together when you see a flag. It's what I try to do.
I guess I don't understand why anyone would be within 100' of a boat with an orange flag in the air, let alone when under power. Some people are just too stupid to own a boat, they are the ones that cause the serious accidents.
We should all raise our hand as a courtesy to other boaters, just lets them know that you are on the lookout for their downed shier/wakeboarder/tuber etc...

[superdave013]

Orange flags seem to be a west thing. I grew up on a lake in northern Indiana for 22 years and never used one. And I was just back there and skied every day. Never used one. When I brought it up that that's how it's done out in CA they all had never heard of it. And these guys are hard core ski nuts that ski the course every morning and pull trick skiers and tubes for the rest of the day.
I do think the flags are a great idea and they do really work. But I've only seen them used out west.

[Moneypitt]

As a driver do not raise your hand if you are looking for the reason for the flag. ONLY when you actually SEE the reason. .........MP

[voodoomedman]

I guess I don't understand why anyone would be within 100' of a boat with an orange flag in the air, let alone when under power. Some people are just too stupid to own a boat, they are the ones that cause the serious accidents.
We should all raise our hand as a courtesy to other boaters, just lets them know that you are on the lookout for their downed shier/wakeboarder/tuber etc...
Hell I try to make eye contact and wave my hand to anyone with a flag up, coming head on, I'm overtaking etc...

[Jordy]

You know, I can't get a hold of her. I thought for sure it was your doing.
She said she was bringing a freind. I thought...Jordy! :D
Wasn't me. :( :cool:

[boater72]

But I'd caution you to remove the keys, so the boat doesn't get started with people in the water near the back of the boat. I've seen that happen too many times. Not pretty. Kids and drunks always seem to be the ones wanting to run the boat when the driver's away.
I am going to be stepping up to my first 26 I/O and told the Wife and friends that this will be the rule in our boat. Friends think I nuts. But o-well.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

That was one hell of a lawyer. Most people on a boat would stay as far away as possible as a courtesy to the flag. I know I would. After reading that post you would think boat b was at fault.
I agree, I always assume that if there is a flag up that there is possibly a 100ft ski-rope in the water.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Years ago as a driver approaching a boat with a flag up it was a courtesey to raise your hand when you "see" the skier/reason for their flag up. This tells the person holding the flag that you are aware of the person in the water, and will detour your course accordingly. I seldom see this done anymore, although I still do it. Any comments............MP
Exactly! I do that every time as well. Learned that oh, when I was about 5.

[bocco]

Red or orange flag signifies a skier down in the water. It MAY be used if people are just swimming around the boat, but not required.
As far as the rope, here's where it gets dicey. A rope trailing from a boat, with no skier in proximity is an obstruction to navigation.
Case law. Here's the story.
On Lake X in AZ, Boat "A" had a flag up, rope in the water, skier on the swim-step getting ready to ski. Boat "B" comes along and clips the rope, parting it and sending the pulley (remember those things) into the face of a little girl swimming a short distance away, causing severe facial injuries and blindness in one eye.
Parents of little girl sue both boaters.
Boat "A" says it's not their fault, they had the flag up.
Boat "B" says it's not their fault, because they saw the skier on board the boat and thought that skiing operations had stopped, and there would be no reason to believe that a rope would still be in the water.
Judge ruled in favor of boat "B" and that a reasonable person would believe no rope would be present and that skiing was done, if the skier was on the boat and not in the water. "B" was held harmless in the incident, and boat "A" was the sole party at fault.
So, now (In AZ) a ski flag is for the skier in the water ONLY and has nothing to do with the tow rope.
Seems that if boat B clipped a 75ft ski rope then he was to close. I believe CA law says 100 feet from another vessel when at speed. It jumps to 200 as soon as someones in the water or they are towing a person or boat.

[2Driver]

My personal pet peeve is the newbies with their brand new boats that drive up and down the river pulling a skier (or wakeboarder) with the mrs holding the flag up the entire time.
How about the dip-$hit holding up an old orange life preserver as a flag? Wish I had $10 bucks for each time I have seen this on the river :messedup:

[JB in so cal]

I guess I don't understand why anyone would be within 100' of a boat with an orange flag in the air, let alone when under power. Some people are just too stupid to own a boat, they are the ones that cause the serious accidents.
We should all raise our hand as a courtesy to other boaters, just lets them know that you are on the lookout for their downed shier/wakeboarder/tuber etc...
Parker Strip, in some spots, is little more than 100' across. Drop a skier in the middle and you are in VERY close proximity to them - and at speed.
I ALWAYS signal with a raised arm.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

How about the dip-$hit holding up an old orange life preserver as a flag? Wish I had $10 bucks for each time I have seen this on the river :messedup:
Yeah, I love that! They can afford a boat and teh gas that is used to run it and all of the other toys to tow behind it, but they can't afford a GD $15 flag!
Another thing I think is crazy, hi-jacking the thread sorry, the people that go to Steamboat or Park Moabi or any other beach area, beach all day and as soon as the ranger comes around to collect the $5 fee they leave like they don't want to pay the $5 to pay for the upkeeop of the facilities.

[BarryMac]

Parker Strip, in some spots, is little more than 100' across. Drop a skier in the middle and you are in VERY close proximity to them - and at speed.
I ALWAYS signal with a raised arm.
I agree, I boat mostly on the Lower River and in places it can be very narrow, in those type of places you just need to be very aware, power down a bit which seems to bother a lot of people and swing as wide as you can.
Yeah, I love that! They can afford a boat and teh gas that is used to run it and all of the other toys to tow behind it, but they can't afford a GD $15 flag!
Dam dude, where are you buying your flags? Nordstroms? :D :D Paid 3.99 for mine on the water... :) :)
Another thing I think is crazy, hi-jacking the thread sorry, the people that go to Steamboat or Park Moabi or any other beach area, beach all day and as soon as the ranger comes around to collect the $5 fee they leave like they don't want to pay the $5 to pay for the upkeeop of the facilities.
Couldn't agree more, guess they are just too worried that they aren't going to have enough money to buy a case of Schaffer's for the night, cheap focks... :skull:

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Dam dude, where are you buying your flags? Nordstroms? :D :D Paid 3.99 for mine on the water... :) :)
I got mine with the "20's" option. LMAO

[BarryMac]

I got mine with the "20's" option. LMAO
Who is this? P Diddy??? :) :)

[BoatPI]

How about anytime a flag is up it might be a good time to stear clear of that boat.

[HCS]

Who is this? P Diddy??? :) :)
It's just Diddy now. :rolleyes: No (P).

[Pointerman]

Word of advice. The cheap orange flags don't float. Shoot some foam insulation into the hollow plastic tube that holds the flag to make it float. If you don't do this your day on the water tubing and having fun may get cut short by someone dropping your flag into the water. Not that this has ever happened to me...

[Havasteve]

I agree, I boat mostly on the Lower River and in places it can be very narrow, in those type of places you just need to be very aware, power down a bit which seems to bother a lot of people and swing as wide as you can.
Dam dude, where are you buying your flags? Nordstroms? :D :D Paid 3.99 for mine on the water... :) :)
Couldn't agree more, guess they are just too worried that they aren't going to have enough money to buy a case of Schaffer's for the night, cheap focks... :skull:
FYI, Steamboat campsites are BLM, you have 20 minuts to put money in the pole for a site you are beached on, if the BLM officer sneaks up on you and catches you, it's a $500 fine to every boat in violation. Problem is, if you put money into the pole you are responsible for what goes on in your site, you are allowed 6 people per site, it's $2 a head after that, the rules are pretty strict. BLM will cut you no slack, if they roll up on your site, you better have your act together, the officers use lake lice to get around so you don't notice them till their on you. I buy a $50 BLM annual pass. The contact that I have had with them indicate that they cut noone any slack. The people backing away from the beach know this, it's not an issue with $5 anymore once caught.

[Boatcop]

Seems that if boat B clipped a 75ft ski rope then he was to close. I believe CA law says 100 feet from another vessel when at speed. It jumps to 200 as soon as someones in the water or they are towing a person or boat.
That law does not apply to skiers
655.2. (a) Every owner, operator, or person in command of any
vessel propelled by machinery is guilty of a misdemeanor who uses it,
or permits it to be used, at a speed in excess of five miles per
hour in any portion of the following areas not otherwise regulated by
local rules and regulations:
(1) Within 100 feet of any person who is engaged in the act of
bathing. A person engaged in the sport of water skiing shall not be
considered as engaged in the act of bathing for the purposes of this
section.
(2) Within 200 feet of any of the following:
(A) A beach frequented by bathers.
(B) A swimming float, diving platform, or lifeline.
(C) A way or landing float to which boats are made fast or which
is being used for the embarkation or discharge of passengers.
(b) This section does not apply to vessels engaged in direct law
enforcement activities which are displaying the lights prescribed by
Section 652.5. Those vessels are also exempt from any locally
imposed speed regulation adopted pursuant to Section 660.